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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average person is

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Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my chat. We've retired

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Speaker 1: New South Wales Police Assistant Commissioner Mark Goodwin and former

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Speaker 1: New South Wales Police Minister Carl Scully. Welcome back, guys,

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Speaker 1: Thank you now. If you miss part one. The two

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Speaker 1: men that we've got in the studio today, they were

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Speaker 1: in their roles as police Minister and Assistant commission that

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Speaker 1: we were in charge or overseeing what happened in the

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Speaker 1: Crenulla Rights and the aftermath of the Cronulla Rights. In

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Speaker 1: Part one we talked about the build up to the rights,

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Speaker 1: specific incidents that had occurred, and that was on the

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Speaker 1: eleventh of December two thousand and five. What the public

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Speaker 1: don't know, and I think this is where we'll get

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Speaker 1: into it a little bit in a little bit more depth,

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Speaker 1: is what happened after the rights. Let's call them revenge attacks.

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Speaker 1: A lot of it's been covered in the book that

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Speaker 1: our two guests of co authored called The Cronulla Rights. Guys,

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Speaker 1: can you tell me about the revenge attacks? We finished

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Speaker 1: off in part one talking about Okay, on that particular night,

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Speaker 1: people went home, people got tired, they went home. But

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Speaker 1: that was just the start of what happened to happen

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Speaker 1: in regards to law enforcement, to make sure the situation

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Speaker 1: didn't escalate.

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Speaker 2: Probably best mark if you want to deal with Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Look, the six o'clock news hit that night after the

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Speaker 3: incidents during the day at Crinella, which was primarily a protest,

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Speaker 3: and as we've discussed in Part one that there was

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Speaker 3: violent incidents occurred down there, but the media had strung

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Speaker 3: them together in such quick succession with excited voiceover that

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Speaker 3: it made it look like a five thousand strong Caucasian

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Speaker 3: crowd had carried on like that all day long, which

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Speaker 3: was not the case. Regardless, that was seen obviously wired

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Speaker 3: and fired and justified the media beat.

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Speaker 4: Up and build up to the actual day.

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Speaker 3: So what occurred then is that's put broadcast into every

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Speaker 3: lound room around certainly New South Wales, if not Australia

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Speaker 3: and even internationally, and that enraged the young Lebanese Muslim

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Speaker 3: youth that had seen people from their community being assaulted

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Speaker 3: on the beach by these inebriated Caucasians. And what started

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Speaker 3: from them almost instantly we started hearing and having information

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Speaker 3: brought to my attention was things that started popping up

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Speaker 3: at I think the first one was at Saint George

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Speaker 3: Hospital and then at Brighton the Sands and incidents that

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Speaker 3: were occurring which were of violent nature and.

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Speaker 4: Quite extreme.

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Speaker 3: And then we moved the command center then to the

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Speaker 3: Sydney Police Center and opened up the large Police Operations Center,

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Speaker 3: which had already been running in a support role to myself,

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Speaker 3: but we activated in full mode then and I called

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Speaker 3: back and luckily, in the planning for this, we had

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Speaker 3: anticipated that this may occur. So we immediately called back

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Speaker 3: in a large number of extra police to relieve the

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Speaker 3: ones that had been on duty all day in the

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Speaker 3: hot sun, and even they were kept on though anyway

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Speaker 3: on overtime. But and I recalled an number of superintendent

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Speaker 3: local commanders to specific areas around the cocker Rockdale, Brighton,

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Speaker 3: Lessens and Uncliff area, the campsy La Kember Cannbury Bankstown

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Speaker 3: area and also in the eastern suburbs.

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Speaker 4: And what occurred is that.

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Speaker 3: We had then closed down the bridges into the Sutherland Shire.

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Speaker 3: We didn't even have the powers to do this, but

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Speaker 3: we just anticipated what was coming because I had been

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Speaker 3: a crome manager at Banksdown for five years and before

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Speaker 3: that had detected for five years as well in the

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Speaker 3: early eighties. But I knew what was coming and my

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Speaker 3: experience told me that this is going to be bad.

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Speaker 4: And it was.

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Speaker 3: And what we started seeing was these marauding groups of

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Speaker 3: up to fifty cars of young Lebanese Muslim men, very enraged,

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Speaker 3: very angry, and they armed themselves with baseball bats, knives, guns,

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Speaker 3: and we had entire suburbs attacked, such as Muruba, because

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Speaker 3: they couldn't get into the Sutherland because the bridges were shut,

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Speaker 3: even though we didn't have the power to do it.

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Speaker 3: We just closed them off, anticipating and knowing what may happen.

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Speaker 3: So that first night they didn't get in there, but

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Speaker 3: they went to Ruber instead because what had occurred was

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Speaker 3: in the lead up to it, most unehelpfully, there'd been

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Speaker 3: an article run where the head of the Bra Boys

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Speaker 3: had said in the front page of the Daily Telegraph

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Speaker 3: that either reason they don't come here to Maruber is

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Speaker 3: because of us the bra Boys.

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Speaker 4: Well they came to Ruber, all right. They came that.

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Speaker 1: Night waving the red flag.

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Speaker 4: Rave the red flag.

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Speaker 3: A very irresponsible article and it absolutely caused Maruba to

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Speaker 3: be trushed. And what occurred over there was there was

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Speaker 3: rated paging gangs of up to fifty cars. They got

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Speaker 3: out with baseball bats, knives and they just went ballistic

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Speaker 3: on the town and they smashed car windows, shop windows,

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Speaker 3: People walking down the streets were baseball battered. We had stabbings.

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Speaker 3: We had over that period. That night and the next

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Speaker 3: following nights. This went on with more and more viciousness,

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Speaker 3: and you know, there was churches, Christian churches burnt down

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Speaker 3: in the West suburbs.

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Speaker 4: There was people stabbed. They got into the Shire.

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Speaker 3: The following night into the sutherland Shire, there was a

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Speaker 3: young guy stabbed outside viciously and almost died outside Willowere

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Speaker 3: Golf Club. And look, there was numerous baseball battings going

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Speaker 3: on and assaults, people being punch kicked and stuff for

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Speaker 3: no other reason that they were just Caucasians.

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Speaker 4: So that escalated to a point where.

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Speaker 3: We were having a lot of trouble responding to this

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Speaker 3: because there was so mobile, they were so random. They

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Speaker 3: were unlike popularist media have reported that they were all

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Speaker 3: coming from a particular park in Punchbow, they were emanating

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Speaker 3: from numerous areas in the western suburbs, all done by

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Speaker 3: mobile phane and meet up points organized very quickly. And

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Speaker 3: these mobile rampaging gangs very hard to police with. What

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Speaker 3: traditionally we see of public order is the static police

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Speaker 3: lines protests.

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Speaker 1: A one hundred right squad police up this OA. It

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Speaker 1: don't turn up there.

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Speaker 3: In a particular area because you well know that's where

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Speaker 3: the protest.

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Speaker 4: Is going to be. But this was random.

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Speaker 3: That was a lot night under the cover of darkness,

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Speaker 3: and you know this way years later we see that

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Speaker 3: and we say that there's just this media coverage of

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Speaker 3: the daytime events at Cornella is all you see. If

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Speaker 3: you google the Cronella RTEs, that's all you will see.

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Speaker 3: Because the media couldn't keep up. They literally decided and

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Speaker 3: they often act as a pack, and they decided at

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Speaker 3: about five o'clock at Cronell it was all over and

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Speaker 3: went in and they were out to dinner when the

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Speaker 3: main event occurred, which was the revenge attacks. And there's

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Speaker 3: no imagery, and these revenge attacks would have fed you've said,

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Speaker 3: like the six o'clock news, and I remember anyone around

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Speaker 3: at the time would remember how it was covered and

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Speaker 3: how you described it as it was a right of

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Speaker 3: large group of ossie males attacking anyone that came to

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Speaker 3: the beach of Middle Eastern appearance. And from what we've

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Speaker 3: learned in part one, that wasn't entirely as yeah, as

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Speaker 3: straightforward as that, and that wasn't the numbers that were

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Speaker 3: portrayed in the media. But I know, like I was

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Speaker 3: speaking to in prep for the podcast, speaking to a

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Speaker 3: Lebanese friend, and she said she was getting calls as

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Speaker 3: you touched on from overseas, going are you guys all

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Speaker 3: right over there?

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Speaker 1: What's happening? Because that was the type of thing, that's

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Speaker 1: thing that was being portrayed, all the images that were

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Speaker 1: being portrayed in the media. What happened in the follow

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Speaker 1: up attacks didn't capture the media's attention because a little

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Speaker 1: bit harder, as you started to explain. But from a

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Speaker 1: policing point of view, and I ask you this, and

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Speaker 1: I'd also defer to you, Carl, because I think there

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Speaker 1: had to be changes in the legislation that got pushed through.

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Speaker 1: The type of powers mark that you were seeking to

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Speaker 1: quell that like stopping cars and pulling people over, we

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Speaker 1: didn't have those powers readily available. There was a little,

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Speaker 1: let's call it a gray area on what authority they

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Speaker 1: could use.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, what we found was is that first off,

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Speaker 3: this mass text messaging that was going on and that's

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Speaker 3: how things were being organized, we didn't have powers to

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Speaker 3: search phones and discover what had been said and where

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Speaker 3: it was being said and where they were going to.

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Speaker 3: So that was one issue. Another issue, we didn't have

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Speaker 3: powers to actually lock down suburbs. And you know there

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Speaker 3: was in those days, there was random breath testing legislation,

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Speaker 3: so we use that, but we literally didn't have the

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Speaker 3: We didn't have the power to lock down these bridges

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Speaker 3: to keep them out of the Sutherland Shower or any

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Speaker 3: other suburbs, Ruber or anywhere else.

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Speaker 4: But he just did it anyway.

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Speaker 3: And in discussions with the government with Carl Scully, who

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Speaker 3: was a police minister, we said, we think we need

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Speaker 3: these powers.

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Speaker 4: We need to be able.

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Speaker 3: To search these people, and we need to be able

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Speaker 3: to stop search these marauding gangs of cars. We need

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Speaker 3: to be able to confiscate their cars.

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Speaker 4: We need to be able to search.

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Speaker 3: Through their phones and if these messaging, seize those phones,

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Speaker 3: because these are the weapons you're literally being used to

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Speaker 3: organize and then also to shut licensed premises in case

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Speaker 3: there was more an ebriot sort of action on the beach.

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Speaker 3: And look, we went to the government and the response

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Speaker 3: and Car can talk about this because he was the minister.

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Speaker 3: But like the response week, I've never seen anything like it. Like,

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Speaker 3: as I said before part one, the Parliament was in recess,

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Speaker 3: so they finished for the year.

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Speaker 5: You've got holidays, Car, not quite holidays, but the parliament

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Speaker 5: itself it was in recess, and you know, and the

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Speaker 5: response that week, I wish I let Carl talk about

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Speaker 5: now from our law enforcement perspective was phenomenal how the

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Speaker 5: government reacted and able to car for what was actually done.

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Speaker 2: So I'll give an example.

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Speaker 6: Once we gave the power of entering public transport, inspect

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Speaker 6: all cars, inspecting phones, and then arresting and confiscating, it

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Speaker 6: went through like a bush telegraph. Suddenly these young men

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Speaker 6: realized the cops are there. If I've got this on

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Speaker 6: my phone, I can be put in prison. So that

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Speaker 6: was very rapidly impacted upon this incitement, and certainly the

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Speaker 6: out of lockdown suburbs and to seize cars and detain

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Speaker 6: people was enormously important. But yes, Mark's right, we acted

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Speaker 6: as quickly as we possibly could. Eleventh of December it occurred,

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Speaker 6: and the fifteenth that became law. So we had a

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Speaker 6: cabinet meeting a minute and the cabinet resolved very quickly.

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Speaker 6: By the way, there was no twenty page cabinet minute

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Speaker 6: with all this stuff. We met and the Cabinet secretary

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Speaker 6: made some notes about what we decided, and those notes

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Speaker 6: went to the Parliamentary Council and a bill was quickly

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Speaker 6: drafted and Parliament recalled and it.

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Speaker 2: Was all very very quick.

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Speaker 1: Credit to you, because I've been involved in trying to

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Speaker 1: get legislative changes on certain things, and I can assure

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Speaker 1: you it doesn't go that quick.

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Speaker 6: It was pretty impressive to see, but it gave them

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Speaker 6: what they needed. So, as I said, my job was

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Speaker 6: to provide the powers, the personnel and resources and to

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Speaker 6: nudge the commissioner around when he needed to be, to

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Speaker 6: give the backing to someone like Mark Goodwin and his commanders.

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Speaker 6: And I think the government did that well.

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Speaker 1: At what point you mentioned in part one early that

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Speaker 1: you flagged the idea of bringing the military in At

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Speaker 1: what stage in events was that when.

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Speaker 6: You straight after the main event? And I had the

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Speaker 6: concerns historically from McQuary Fields, And perhaps if I could

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Speaker 6: recount a quick story. The day after the mcquarie Fields

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Speaker 6: first day, which you might call went for about four

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Speaker 6: days or so, I had a meeting. I'd been minister

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Speaker 6: for about four or five weeks and we met out

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Speaker 6: at McQuary Fields and I said, all right, what are

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Speaker 6: you doing this evening? Oh, I've got one hundred and

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Speaker 6: fifty police said is that enough? Do you think that's enough?

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Speaker 6: And on the way back to the office I rang

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Speaker 6: the commissioner. I said, I'm just a lawyer who went

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Speaker 6: into politics who ended up as police minister. But you

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Speaker 6: guys have been doing this for decades.

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Speaker 2: He rang me back.

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Speaker 6: Five minutes later and said, well, actually, there's going to

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Speaker 6: be six hundred and so when at the end of

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Speaker 6: the same year I got oh, we're putting six hundred in,

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Speaker 6: I thought, well, is that the magic number for law

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Speaker 6: and order events? And I said this is a lot

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Speaker 6: worse than mcquarie fields. Do I need to ask the

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Speaker 6: premier to bring soldiers in? We'll need to put troops

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Speaker 6: on the street. And he got the message very quickly.

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Speaker 6: We changed the law, We gave the powers to the cops,

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Speaker 6: and the commissioner authorized two thousand police officers. So he

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Speaker 6: did what was expected of him, and I believe the

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Speaker 6: government did what was expected of it. All we can

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Speaker 6: do is empower the police with personnel, resources and powers,

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Speaker 6: and there was up to them to do that work.

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Speaker 6: But we knew he had plans in place. He already

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Speaker 6: had those escalation plans in place, which he was already

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Speaker 6: implementing from the previous evening.

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Speaker 1: Okay, mark those powers when they came in the play

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Speaker 1: and the resourcing that we just talked about, then, how

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Speaker 1: much did that assist in staying on top of the situation.

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Speaker 3: Look, I think the people of this South Wales have

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Speaker 3: really got no idea what threat they were under. And

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Speaker 3: I'll talk about the second the intelligence that we had,

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Speaker 3: and then you know we needed those powers. We were

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Speaker 3: acting and hoc really and just doing it because it

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Speaker 3: was the right thing to do. Bit like Craig Campbell

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Speaker 3: on the on the train. If people want to say

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Speaker 3: that's a defensive weapon and he was using it offensively,

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Speaker 3: well that's what was required at the time. We shut

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Speaker 3: down bridges, we shut down suburbs and stuff because there'd

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Speaker 3: be people dead otherwise and that's your job as policing.

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Speaker 4: Worry about it later.

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Speaker 3: But we did need these powers to give the police

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Speaker 3: the assurance on the street of doing what I was

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Speaker 3: asking them to do was lawful and that they needed

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Speaker 3: that morale boost. And look, the government responses I've outlined

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Speaker 3: already was was, I mean, it's a fantastic example of

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Speaker 3: the system, the best I've ever seen to have legislation

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Speaker 3: after I opened my mouth on the table four days

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Speaker 3: and I'm using it four days later.

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Speaker 4: So we gave police a great morale boost.

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Speaker 3: We certainly then organized our plans around that and you know,

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Speaker 3: the following week again we had to run an operation

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Speaker 3: because of the amount of intelligence we had. We had

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Speaker 3: to run an operation that extended from Woollongong in the

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Speaker 3: south to Newcastle in the north, with two thousand police involved.

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Speaker 3: And that was the largest public order operation ever run

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Speaker 3: in Australia and still to this day is it was very,

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Speaker 3: very complex in seven zones and shut We used this

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Speaker 3: legislation and were shut down and lockdown areas based upon

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Speaker 3: the intelligence we had, mostly beachside suburbs, but certainly inner

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Speaker 3: western Sydney as well. And you know, people entering and

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Speaker 3: leaving those had to give reasons they were there, They

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Speaker 3: had to show identification, so they are lockdown with roadblocks

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Speaker 3: like you know in COVID. People saw it in COVID,

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Speaker 3: but this this happened in parts of as I said,

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Speaker 3: right from Wollongong to Newcastle, Beach suburbs lockdown completely and

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Speaker 3: you had to either live there or show identification as

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Speaker 3: to why you were going in there, have a reason

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Speaker 3: to go in there, and your car would be searched

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Speaker 3: and you would be searched. And but look, the public

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Speaker 3: were very cooperative because you know, I can't recall one

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Speaker 3: single complaint that we had against any police officer during

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Speaker 3: that period of time, which is just bizarre for the

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Speaker 3: amount of this law enforcement that was done, and.

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Speaker 4: It was over the top.

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Speaker 3: But they were built in safeguards in this law enforcement

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Speaker 3: activity too, because the use of these powers can only

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Speaker 3: be authorized by an Assistant commissioner, which was me sign

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Speaker 3: You had to sign off on it, a bit like

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Speaker 3: I say, controlled operation type thing. It's not just an

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Speaker 3: everyday power that exists normally, so it has to be

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Speaker 3: extreme circumstances and this then gets signed off and it

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Speaker 3: then becomes the fact that the police can use it.

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Speaker 3: They can't use these powers on any other normal day,

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Speaker 3: So they were these safeguards build into it. But it

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Speaker 3: gave police enormous confidence and it was.

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Speaker 1: Used, and it was used heaps and making the difference.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about the intel that there's some that's referred

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Speaker 1: to in the book and conversations I've had with you

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Speaker 1: quite horrific the potential for what they'd been rumored to

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Speaker 1: be about to occur.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, look, I'll give you a couple of examples, and

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Speaker 3: we reveal this in the book. For the first time ever,

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Speaker 3: we had intelligence, for instance, that there was going to

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Speaker 3: be a drive by shooting with Uzi submachine guns at

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Speaker 3: the Northey's Hotel at Cronulla, which is the local drinking

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Speaker 3: whole of a Friday Saturday night. The following weekend there

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Speaker 3: was going to be this drive by shooting.

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Speaker 4: There was also in.

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Speaker 3: That same incident going to be a hand grenade thrown

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Speaker 3: into the front bier garden. We knew from existing task

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Speaker 3: forces of the police that there was attempts being made

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Speaker 3: to purchase a hand grenade on the black market. There

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Speaker 3: was an undercover operation that the police ran that week

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Speaker 3: and took a hand grenade off the street and purchased

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Speaker 3: it and it was secured by the bomb squad and removed.

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Speaker 3: There was search warrants also done to remove guns off

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Speaker 3: the street and another potential source that we knew was

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Speaker 3: another potential source of another hand grenade from intelligence that

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Speaker 3: we'd been provided. And we also had intelligence for instance

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Speaker 3: that Westfield's at Miranda and the Thursday night before Christmas,

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Speaker 3: because all this was in the lead up to Christmas,

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Speaker 3: there was going to be a raid done on the

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Speaker 3: west Fields at moriunded by fifty car loads of young

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Speaker 3: Lebanese Muslim men with baseball bats, knives and good nos

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Speaker 3: what else. And we saw the result of one offender

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Speaker 3: recently in Bondo and what rampaging through a shopping center

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Speaker 3: that can do this was going to be fifty So

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Speaker 3: we had a lot of conversations with Westfields about this

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Speaker 3: and we locked down that whole precinct with enormous amounts

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Speaker 3: of police and it didn't occur as thwarted. You know,

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Speaker 3: the attack at Cernulla was thwarted and what was really

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Speaker 3: going on behind the scenes, And you wonder why there

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Speaker 3: was a special sitting of New South Wales Parliament because

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Speaker 3: it was frightening Gary what the intelligence we were receiving.

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Speaker 3: And we had intelligence in the abundance load because thankfully

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Speaker 3: there was a lot of existing police task forces that

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Speaker 3: were already working on some of the criminals that were

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Speaker 3: acting in these revenge attacks. And we also have a

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Speaker 3: lot of informants coming forward, a lot of also concerned

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Speaker 3: parents from both sides that were giving police information.

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Speaker 4: So we had a lot of intelligence.

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Speaker 2: About authorities also feeding.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I was approached by our federal counterparts and some

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Speaker 3: agencies that I can't really mention approached me quite concerned

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Speaker 3: and had the exact identical intelligence that we did.

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Speaker 1: It was sound, sound intelligence.

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Speaker 3: And for instance, like we one of the I don't

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Speaker 3: want to name him here, but one of the people

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Speaker 3: we interviewed saw a bootload of oozy submachine guns outside

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Speaker 3: the mosque that was going to be used, and him

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Speaker 3: and other senior Muslim leaders shut that down. And you know,

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Speaker 3: you can't underestimate the work that was done over there

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Speaker 3: at Campsy because you know, after Ruba was attacked, there

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Speaker 3: was a it was actually a quite false rumor went

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Speaker 3: around that in retribution for that, every surfy was going

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Speaker 3: to turn up there and destroy the mosque, and so

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Speaker 3: you know, that went round like wildfire in the Arabic

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Speaker 3: Muslim community, and all of a sudden, thousands of people

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Speaker 3: literally started turning up to the mosque and it was hostile.

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Speaker 4: And the police.

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Speaker 3: Commander over there, John Richard, did an absolutely fantastic, marvelous

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Speaker 3: job with the local game because of fantastic existing relationships

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Speaker 3: that they already had with the local Muslim leaders, and

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Speaker 3: you know, they screamed themselves hoarse outside that mosque to

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Speaker 3: close down what the potential was going.

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Speaker 1: To prevent their credit to prevent this. The role that

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Speaker 1: law enforcement plays in it, but the community play such

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Speaker 1: a big part, The community leaders play such a big

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Speaker 1: part in its.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, and they got there their unsung heroes and of

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Speaker 3: all this because you know what was prevented by them,

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Speaker 3: by John Richardson and also the and most particularly actually

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Speaker 3: the I say John richards I mean police, his frontline police,

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Speaker 3: and I'm talking about the superintendent, I mean the actual

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Speaker 3: bodies on the ground, the frontline troops that we all

400
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Speaker 3: know did a wonderful job, but the Muslim leaders themselves

401
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Speaker 3: did an absolutely fantastic job there to calm the situation.

402
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Speaker 3: It would have been way, way worse if it wasn't

403
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Speaker 3: for their involve already existing liaisons with the police.

404
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Speaker 1: Actually, yeah, and I hope that type of stuff gets

405
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Speaker 1: reported because we talk about the media, the sensational type stuff,

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Speaker 1: but that doesn't carry it for the story as much doesible.

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Speaker 6: As goary, it didn't happen, So it didn't happen, Yeah,

408
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Speaker 6: and we've tried to say, but it could have happened,

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Speaker 6: and it didn't happen for all these reasons, primarily because

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Speaker 6: of police, but there's also a great contribution from community.

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Speaker 6: And one of the stories we try and tell is

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Speaker 6: John Richardson his commander and his relationship.

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Speaker 2: With the commutingmunity, and that wasn't isolated.

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Speaker 6: The police did a good job, and I can tell

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Speaker 6: you as police minister, I respected the efforts that these

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Speaker 6: local area commanders put into building relationships with their stakeholders

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Speaker 6: and community. But I'm disappointed people. It's almost like, well,

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Speaker 6: it didn't happen, so it didn't.

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Speaker 2: Maybe that it almost did.

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Speaker 1: Maybe people can look at the consequences if just one

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Speaker 1: of those incidents happened. I don't think our society be

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Speaker 1: the same way we are today. I think it'll be

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Speaker 1: game changing. It would just escalate. An assault on the

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Speaker 1: beach at Cronulla escalated into the riots. Could you imagine

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Speaker 1: if something more sinister occurred, or a larger magnitude.

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Speaker 6: So look, I think we would have had to have

427
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Speaker 6: responded had it got out of hand. Potentially troops would

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Speaker 6: have been brought in onto the streets with personnel carriers,

429
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Speaker 6: we would have increased powers federally in state. We wouldn't

430
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Speaker 6: have stood by and not responded aggressively. But to societally

431
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Speaker 6: repress a whole chunk of our community is not something

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Speaker 6: I got into politics for. I really didn't but having

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Speaker 6: these thoughts in my head at the time, Yeah, some

434
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Speaker 6: of which I probably didn't even share with Mark, but

435
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Speaker 6: I remember considering them, at what level do we need

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Speaker 6: to take this to to win the fight? And we

437
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Speaker 6: would have gone to whatever level we needed to do

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Speaker 6: to deal with it. Thankfully, these who went back to barracks,

439
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Speaker 6: they got the message. They didn't like being arrested, they

440
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:07,120
Speaker 6: didn't like their phones and cars being taken off them.

441
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:10,920
Speaker 6: And when all these streets and beaches and suburbs were

442
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,880
Speaker 6: all being shut down, they thought, oh, there's a whole

443
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 6: ton of men and women in blue.

444
00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:16,000
Speaker 2: No thanks.

445
00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:18,920
Speaker 6: They turned around and went home. But it was touch

446
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:20,080
Speaker 6: and go for a while.

447
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,800
Speaker 1: It certainly sounds that it comes out out in the book.

448
00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:26,600
Speaker 1: How long did this go on? For Mark? Like the

449
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:29,719
Speaker 1: when did you Because you have Australia Day coming up?

450
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:33,280
Speaker 1: I remember that was So that was a big day

451
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:35,800
Speaker 1: in itself, just because of what it represents. So we're

452
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,200
Speaker 1: talking over the whole summer period basically.

453
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, Look, the most violent of the incidents certainly occurred

454
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:45,600
Speaker 3: in the first few nights, but you are right, it

455
00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:49,520
Speaker 3: went on and we kept receiving intelligence of incidents that

456
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:51,960
Speaker 3: we had to shut down and we kept targeting and

457
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:54,720
Speaker 3: using these powers. They were extended and used over the

458
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,720
Speaker 3: entire summer. So incidents days I should say, such as

459
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 3: Australia Day, even Christmas Day, Boxing Day, New Year's Eve,

460
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:06,800
Speaker 3: they were all extreme risk events that are not normally

461
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:07,400
Speaker 3: risk rated.

462
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:08,320
Speaker 4: At that high level.

463
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:10,560
Speaker 3: It's the highest level you can have because of the

464
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,560
Speaker 3: intelligence that we had about incidents that were being planned

465
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,320
Speaker 3: and were going to happen amongst crowd activity, particularly on

466
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:20,080
Speaker 3: say New Year's Eve and things like that. The intelligence,

467
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 3: as I said, you know, we've revealed some of it

468
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:24,480
Speaker 3: in the book, but what we had overall was frightening.

469
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:27,399
Speaker 3: I've never seen anything like it my life in the

470
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 3: police and as I said, I worked at Bankstown for

471
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 3: quite a number of years and in the drugs world

472
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,240
Speaker 3: and in the homicide and I understand you so I've

473
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:34,639
Speaker 3: seen the.

474
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:36,639
Speaker 4: Worst of the worst, but as you have.

475
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 3: But it was it was to a frightening level, even

476
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,359
Speaker 3: to as I said, the federal counterparts have come to

477
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,439
Speaker 3: me that we don't normally deal with state police forces,

478
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:48,240
Speaker 3: and we're very very concerned themselves. But one of the

479
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:49,919
Speaker 3: things I think is interesting to talk about that we

480
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 3: instigated because these were such mobile random revenge attacks. We

481
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,160
Speaker 3: decided and it was a bit of an epiphany. Really

482
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:01,920
Speaker 3: we need to be able to respond in a similar

483
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:06,200
Speaker 3: mobile fashion, So none of this mobile right squads waiting

484
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 3: for things, just that we locked down these suburbs. Sure,

485
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:11,879
Speaker 3: but we needed to attack these marauding gang's head on.

486
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 3: So one thing we do know is that young young

487
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:19,360
Speaker 3: men like their driver's license and there's hided up sporty

488
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 3: cars and they don't like having it taken from them.

489
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:25,439
Speaker 3: So we came up with the idea we put groups

490
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 3: of ten v eight pursuit cars with pursuit drivers and

491
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 3: three other right Squad police in each one of those

492
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 3: cars in groups of ten cars, so thirty right police

493
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 3: in ten higher Patrol cars. And there was numerous of

494
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,119
Speaker 3: these teams throughout Sydney, and a minute that we got

495
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:46,480
Speaker 3: any information about a group forming that were intent on

496
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 3: rampaging around in these marauding.

497
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,359
Speaker 4: Mobs, they were swarmed upon by these.

498
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 3: Police, very very good police, highly trained, highly trained Higher

499
00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:57,520
Speaker 3: Patrol officers.

500
00:25:58,280 --> 00:25:59,440
Speaker 4: They all stuck.

501
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 3: Together these vehicle in convoy and there was there was

502
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 3: a site to be seen. When they know it was

503
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 3: head on into these gangs of marauding mobs going around

504
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 3: and it actually got worldwide attention.

505
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:13,640
Speaker 1: Of these in the in the book that came across there.

506
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 3: There So being a right on the move is not

507
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 3: something that certainly we've ever experienced in Australia uh and

508
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:25,120
Speaker 3: even internationally in most jurisdictions haven't haven't had to deal

509
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,919
Speaker 3: with such a marauding groups in these high speed vehicles

510
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:32,119
Speaker 3: in convoys pulling up randomly just destroying complete such streets

511
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 3: and suburbs. So it got the attention of overseas jurisdictions,

512
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 3: and Carl will certainly talk about, Like I know William Bratton,

513
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:45,399
Speaker 3: who is his renowned police commissioner from both l A

514
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:50,199
Speaker 3: and an NYPD. He spoke to us and he was

515
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,880
Speaker 3: intrigued by the fact that we that we had used

516
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 3: these rapid right response plus we call.

517
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:58,640
Speaker 4: Them for one of a better word.

518
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 3: And also I think Carl was spacking to you by

519
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 3: the French authorities about it as well.

520
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 6: I had a meeting with the French authorities who had

521
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 6: their own riot three weeks before we did, and I

522
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 6: was really intrigued how they learned from that what they did.

523
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:15,919
Speaker 2: They just wanted to talk about.

524
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 6: Our mobile policing And one of my favorite stories was

525
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 6: when I got called by the police commander responsible for

526
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 6: Castle Hill. He said, Castle Hill Towers, a whole lot

527
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 6: of mums and dads and kids had been turning up

528
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:32,400
Speaker 6: for Christmas shopping and there are about twenty of these

529
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 6: youths harassing them at the entrance. I said, what have

530
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 6: you done? And he said, don't worry. We ordered five

531
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:44,359
Speaker 6: highway patrol vehicles. Highway patrol right squat fifteen rights everyone.

532
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 6: They got out and got their batons and shields and

533
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 6: went in a short in a slow trot towards the entrance.

534
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:55,919
Speaker 6: I said, what happened? He said, they ran like the wind.

535
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 6: That would have been I wish i'd seen the video

536
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 6: of that, but yeah, got international coverage, and I think

537
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,639
Speaker 6: a mark and they had a highway patrol should have

538
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 6: got innovative policing awards.

539
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 1: Well. That is, I liked the idea of thinking outside

540
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,119
Speaker 1: the square, and that's definitely thinking outside of the square

541
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 1: when I read it. When I read it in the book,

542
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 1: I'm thinking it makes sense, and I'm thinking, but why

543
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,119
Speaker 1: hadn't we thought of that before? But yeah, it's about

544
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:25,879
Speaker 1: being adaptable to the circumstances and the situations and reflecting

545
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 1: on what happened there, the changes of the legislation, the

546
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 1: changes in policing, I've got to say too. And I

547
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,119
Speaker 1: don't want to cry a poor with police because we

548
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 1: sign up to it and that's what we do. But

549
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 1: I still remember during that period of time the amount

550
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 1: of leave that we had to cancel on police officers

551
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 1: to come in and fill the fil and these are

552
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 1: people and I'd be like a crime manager, well we

553
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 1: need to give ten, but I've got my holiday book

554
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 1: dom seem yea all that and it was all canceled.

555
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 1: And full credit to the people that got in there

556
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 1: and contributed that way, you.

557
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 4: Know, as I said, we had to put this look.

558
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 3: I was mentioned in Part one there was a thing

559
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 3: called the Olympics in Sydney in two thousand and luckily

560
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 3: we had a blueprint from how to release so many

561
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 3: resources into this special operation. So we literally used that

562
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 3: Olympic blueprint and we joined all the local area commands

563
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 3: into bigger.

564
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 4: Areas and released all these troops.

565
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 3: But that part of that was and you know, the

566
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 3: Justice Department a very good of deferring court matters. Leave

567
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 3: was canceled for all police and then that freed up

568
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 3: sufficient resources. You know, any proactivity, productive units and operations

569
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 3: were all closed down over this period. They're all sent

570
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:42,719
Speaker 3: to Sydney to deal with this marauding groups of revenge

571
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 3: attackers that was just growing exponentially. And you know it

572
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 3: hats off to the police and im I was one

573
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 3: of them myself, but to the front line police. They

574
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 3: you know, they didn't they didn't get Christmas that year.

575
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 3: They were working, you know, and they worked down hard

576
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 3: and long hours. And you know, one of the things

577
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:00,480
Speaker 3: that I got praise for is that we brought in

578
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 3: the police union very early in the piece.

579
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 4: That was good thinking to make sure that you.

580
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 3: Know that these police were looked after, and it wasn't

581
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 3: you know that I don't want to deal with blues

582
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 3: inside the police, so you know, things that were required

583
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 3: in terms of their safety and their accommodation and their

584
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 3: meals and just to make sure that things ran smoothly.

585
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 3: We had the police union involved right from the start

586
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 3: in the planning for it all.

587
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 4: And this was planning on their own.

588
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 3: This wasn't some terrorist operation that you knew was working

589
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 3: on a group a cell that's been a six month investigation.

590
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 3: This was thinking on their own, you know, and these

591
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 3: things were escalating rather rapidly and quickly, and it was

592
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 3: a very very changing, rapid environment that we had to

593
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 3: resource it and respond to it. And the logistics people

594
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 3: that I had working for me took up a whole room.

595
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 1: Oh logistical nightmare. I'm looking at the magnitude of it.

596
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 1: And I probably should apologize to you Mark that when

597
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 1: I was canceling people's holidays and blaming you, I'm sorry,

598
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 1: I've said some beads that bloody Mark good, but yeah,

599
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:00,160
Speaker 1: don't blame me. I can't help, but these telling us

600
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 1: look true. That's what you needed to do.

601
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 4: The troops were fabulous. I didn't get any complaints.

602
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 3: They all threw in, you know, they needed Coppers are

603
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 3: like that, mate, you know when the when the chips

604
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 3: are down, they know what's got to be done. And

605
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 3: they did it, you know, and they did a sterling job.

606
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 3: And I didn't hear any winges. And people literally had

607
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 3: to cancel family holidays and paid stuff.

608
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 1: You know.

609
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 3: It was it was horrendous times and I felt very

610
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 3: sorry for all those police and families and you know,

611
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 3: apologies now, but it was absolutely necessary and you know,

612
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 3: they knew what was going on, but the public just

613
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 3: don't know how severe it was and how much risk

614
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 3: they are under.

615
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 1: What about the arrests that followed on and the it

616
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 1: was controversy I think with Dennis Spray was that strike

617
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 1: force and Nogra, Yeah, and that was arrests that followed on,

618
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 1: followed on on the back of the everything that occurred,

619
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 1: basically team of detectives coming in and looking at locking

620
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 1: up people that had committed the criminal offenses. Was that

621
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 1: successful in the way that that was approached.

622
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:13,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, Look, initially there was a great imbalance of the

623
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:17,479
Speaker 3: arrests that were made, and that's simply because during their

624
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,480
Speaker 3: daytime events at Cronulla, everything that occurred down there was

625
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 3: videoed by professional cameraman from one hundred Angeles and that

626
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 3: was all available to the police. And so I'm like

627
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 3: that the revenge attacks that were occurring was a much

628
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 3: harder investigation in that community. Amongst those types of people,

629
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 3: there's not willing witnesses to come forward and identification becomes

630
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 3: a big issue as well, and.

631
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 4: You know that, and these attacks were happening at night.

632
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 3: Revenge attacks were happening at night under the cover of darkness,

633
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 3: and there was no journalists around. You know, the best

634
00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 3: that we had at nighttime was a couple of stringers

635
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 3: as they call it, which are people that go and

636
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 3: try and capture image and sell it to the news works.

637
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 3: And they were around or not, but they didn't even

638
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 3: know where these attacks were occurring.

639
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:09,959
Speaker 4: They were so random. So there's no imagery much of

640
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 4: it at all.

641
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 3: But there was CCTV footage in certain places of these

642
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 3: attacks occurring, and the police had done a marvelous job

643
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 3: in rounding that up and they had that imagery, but

644
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 3: of course that wasn't released to the public at that

645
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 3: point in time because they were working on a number

646
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 3: of angles with that. One was it's grainy imagery and

647
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 3: they were trying to get enhancements done and you know

648
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 3: the issues with it takes time and with the imagery

649
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 3: getting enhanced and so forth for suitable for court identifications

650
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 3: most particularly, and then second to that, it's a strategic

651
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 3: issue for police as to when to release that imagery

652
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 3: because quite often if there's surveillance techniques put in place,

653
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 3: you as a strategic time to release that imagery to

654
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 3: sure that though that look and as certainly fane calls

655
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 3: may get of your red top because I saw it

656
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:05,120
Speaker 3: on the news tonight. You know, ready Adida's track sit

657
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 3: pants mate and so forth and everything, and then starts

658
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:08,840
Speaker 3: to formulate the actual evidence.

659
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:10,239
Speaker 4: So that's what the police were doing.

660
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:12,840
Speaker 3: But it was a massive imbalance in the amount of

661
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:17,360
Speaker 3: Caucasians arrested originally versus the other side of the Arabic

662
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 3: youth arrested. And then the politics and the sniping started

663
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 3: that Carl's level, he's best to explain what occurred there really.

664
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 6: So mostly the commissioner, of course, there was this absurd

665
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 6: suggestion that as the Premier was the member for La Kemba,

666
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 6: he was directing police not to arrest Middle Eastern males

667
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 6: and ridiculous, I mean, imagine how that sort of conspiracy

668
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 6: or Watergate type conversation could stay unleaked. Was just absurd, ridiculous,

669
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 6: and it was and the Commissioner was then roundly criticized

670
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 6: for not arresting the offending revenge attackers.

671
00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 2: And I think I mentioned.

672
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 6: Earlier freestyle he announced in the middle of a press

673
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 6: conference without I think giving a moment's thought, Oh that's

674
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 6: because there's no footage.

675
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:09,879
Speaker 2: Well, there was hours and hours and hours.

676
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:15,000
Speaker 6: Of footage from businesses and then that those businesses got

677
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:18,160
Speaker 6: upset because they stayed mum.

678
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:19,399
Speaker 2: They then released it.

679
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 6: The media had a field day, and then the commissioner's

680
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:26,840
Speaker 6: reaction was to sack Bray for not telling him about

681
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 6: it when he hadn't been asked. And then the force,

682
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,280
Speaker 6: his detectives then threatened to strike.

683
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:35,279
Speaker 1: So I remember they they stood up.

684
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:39,880
Speaker 6: Then he got semi rean stated with Slasher Mackay coming

685
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:44,720
Speaker 6: down another one hundred detectives, but it didn't do the trick,

686
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:48,360
Speaker 6: and the Commissioner's back was against the wall. He was

687
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 6: being roundly condemned for an own goal, making up stuff

688
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:56,360
Speaker 6: on the run, and his solution was to announce an

689
00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 6: inquiry into police performance and went on leave, and his

690
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:04,440
Speaker 6: staff insisted Mark Goodwin announced why he was now being investigated.

691
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:11,840
Speaker 6: Not a morsel of criticism to that point from anyone, nobody,

692
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:16,279
Speaker 6: both sides of politics, all the communities all lauded police performance.

693
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 6: But as a media distraction device it was brilliant because

694
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:24,959
Speaker 6: soon the media came to the view, oh, there must

695
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 6: be something wrong with police performance, otherwise the commissioner wouldn't

696
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 6: announce it.

697
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 1: In quirt, How did that make you feel, Mark, because

698
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 1: I and it's not. I won't put this book in

699
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:38,479
Speaker 1: saying that it's a self serving book. It's a book

700
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:41,840
Speaker 1: about the facts that you were presented with. I know

701
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 1: the world, I know policing, and I know how hard

702
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 1: you would have worked, and I look at it and

703
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 1: think that was good policing. But then to be announced

704
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 1: that there's an inquiry into how it was managed, how

705
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 1: did it make you feel?

706
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,879
Speaker 3: I was absolutely mortified, and I'd worked my absolute ass off,

707
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,279
Speaker 3: and the loyalty i'd change that organation was just off

708
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:03,239
Speaker 3: the Richter scale, to be honest with you, and I

709
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 3: don't want cutest for that and never had asked for it.

710
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:09,440
Speaker 3: But I found out in a caravan park by someone

711
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 3: waving a newspaper in the street to come up the

712
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 3: road to me and said, do you know the Commission

713
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:14,880
Speaker 3: has announced an inquiry into you, into your performance and

714
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:17,840
Speaker 3: the cornell are rights, And I've gone, what give it

715
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 3: to you?

716
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:18,400
Speaker 4: Shame me?

717
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:20,800
Speaker 1: And there it was front page.

718
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 4: You know it's been announced to the media. No one

719
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:23,319
Speaker 4: rang me.

720
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 3: I don't have a phone call and I only just

721
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:28,799
Speaker 3: you know, I missed. I missed Christmas, and I'd missed

722
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 3: all of January holidays like everyone else, and I was

723
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:34,799
Speaker 3: down there on a day off and finally had a

724
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,920
Speaker 3: day off, and I was talking to my kids are

725
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 3: around and stuff in a black as I said, black

726
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 3: hat come up with a newspaper announced it, and I'd

727
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:44,839
Speaker 3: just been from a distance following this stuff with the

728
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 3: Task Force and accusations flying around between politics and the

729
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 3: media about who who'd been arrested and who hadn't, and

730
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 3: well that Bras stood down and Braise reinstated and stuff

731
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:56,400
Speaker 3: had nothing.

732
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 1: To do with the criminal investigations are completely separate from

733
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:01,920
Speaker 1: the man of the incidence that you were involved in

734
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 1: me and then got dragged into it.

735
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:05,759
Speaker 3: And then all of a sudden at the same time

736
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:09,920
Speaker 3: that Braves reinstated, and there's a huge number of increase

737
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 3: in Task Force members and all that sort of stuff

738
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 3: and everything to appease the what had been going on

739
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:17,759
Speaker 3: in the media and the embarrassment that had been caused.

740
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:19,320
Speaker 4: At the very same time, there's.

741
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 3: A strike force, not a debrief And as you know,

742
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 3: we conduct and I already started the process for substantial debriefs,

743
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:31,279
Speaker 3: and they're open, honest, transparent, fair processes where everyone from

744
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 3: a to the police dog has their say about what

745
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:38,320
Speaker 3: went well, what didn't work well, what we could improve,

746
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 3: what can be what can we improve in police training, equipment, policies, procedures,

747
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 3: and it's all very open and everyone.

748
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 4: Has their say.

749
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:52,880
Speaker 3: This was a strike force launched into me and my

750
00:38:53,000 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 3: commands commanders, which is normally reserved for criminal investigation. So

751
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 3: I was absolutely mortified that this had occurred and I

752
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:05,839
Speaker 3: hadn't even been told about it and found out by

753
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:08,840
Speaker 3: person waving a newspaper in front of me in the

754
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 3: caravan park. After what I had burned through in the

755
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 3: last month and a loyalty and I'd shown that organization

756
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:16,279
Speaker 3: and the amount of hours I had done to find

757
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:18,760
Speaker 3: out I was now under investigation by a strike force

758
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 3: and not even had a decency of a phone call

759
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 3: was disgraceful.

760
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:28,360
Speaker 6: And Mark Mark can't outline this what happened mccruary fields

761
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 6: because he wasn't involved, didn't have the functions or roles

762
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 6: around that, but I can tell you so. Deputy Commissioner

763
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 6: Dave Madden was given the carriage by the Commissioner to

764
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 6: conduct an internal review about police performance, what we could learn,

765
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 6: how we could improve from the McQuary Fields right. I

766
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 6: sat in four separate meetings with the two Deputy Comms,

767
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 6: the Commissioner, head of the Ministry Police, and my own

768
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:57,600
Speaker 6: senior staff. Fast forward, there was criticism of the McQuary

769
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 6: fields policing performance. There'd been none in relation to Cromala.

770
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 2: But look, it worked. It was a media strategy from

771
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 2: the Commissioner and it worked.

772
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:09,840
Speaker 1: Okay, So, and I want to talk more about the

773
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 1: rights and lessons lessons learned from the rights and what

774
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:17,319
Speaker 1: in contemporary times you think this type of thing can

775
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:20,960
Speaker 1: happen again. But just why we're touched on the subject

776
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 1: that basically cost you your career.

777
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:26,680
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, because there was a report produced and released

778
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:30,319
Speaker 3: to the media that I was never shown. There was

779
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:34,719
Speaker 3: findings in it, findings that I'm still waiting to be spoken.

780
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:38,799
Speaker 4: About at all. It's very frustrating.

781
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:42,680
Speaker 3: And then then this report is released to the media

782
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 3: before any person's had a right of reply. I mean fundamentally,

783
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:50,360
Speaker 3: if you go to the Police Integrity Commissioner Ikak or anything,

784
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:54,880
Speaker 3: you know there's a there's a fundamental procedural fairness that

785
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:58,320
Speaker 3: people are asked, or a coroner's hearing or anything. Really,

786
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 3: when you look at like the Link Cafe siege, which

787
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:07,479
Speaker 3: police command, there was certainly under the microscope. But they're

788
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:10,400
Speaker 3: represented legally down there, and you know they read the

789
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 3: coroner's report on that and their version of events and

790
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:18,279
Speaker 3: what they say legally represented is in the report. I'm

791
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 3: still waiting to be interviewed about half the things that

792
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,719
Speaker 3: were in report. It was released to the public in

793
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 3: a draft form that was put out there under a

794
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:29,760
Speaker 3: haze of media about accusations that the Minister was hiding

795
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 3: this report and then unfortunately it contained issues that caused

796
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 3: an absolute tsunami of negative media against me personally and

797
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:43,800
Speaker 3: other police commanders. And there are things that we dispute

798
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:47,600
Speaker 3: to this date and there's a number of those, and

799
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:49,319
Speaker 3: you know, I haven't got time to go into the now.

800
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:51,279
Speaker 3: But for instance, we talked about in part one the

801
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:54,360
Speaker 3: risk assessment being raised to higher risk and the reasons

802
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:56,560
Speaker 3: it was, and who was briefed and so forth, including

803
00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:58,520
Speaker 3: the Police Minister of sitting right beside me now and

804
00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:00,319
Speaker 3: the Premiere and the Commissioner.

805
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:01,000
Speaker 1: Like the right call there.

806
00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 4: But this report says that.

807
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 3: The risk assessment was left at medium and therefore planning

808
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 3: was all poor. And these were headlined news that all

809
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:13,439
Speaker 3: over Australia that the police were dunderheads and how could

810
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 3: they have left this risk assessment at medium and how

811
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 3: could therefore planning?

812
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 4: Was there all the blame for this?

813
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:18,759
Speaker 2: You know?

814
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 3: So the media that was instigated against me personally, I had,

815
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:27,000
Speaker 3: you know, I had my head put on television frozen

816
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 3: like a mugshot, with these alleged like almost like criminal

817
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 3: convictions being scrolled out underneath, with my head, with my

818
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:36,240
Speaker 3: children sitting there watching it, crying and my wife crying,

819
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:41,439
Speaker 3: you know, and totally unjustified. And I've never been I'd

820
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 3: never been interviewed about them. I'd never been spoken to

821
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:47,360
Speaker 3: about these findings, and then here they are released to

822
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 3: the media, and there's quite a number of issues that

823
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 3: are are to this day in dispute in that. But

824
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 3: the way it was released was was car will talk

825
00:42:57,040 --> 00:42:58,720
Speaker 3: about which is what cost him his career?

826
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:03,440
Speaker 1: No? Sorry, just before we go on there, Mark, and

827
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 1: I understand the frustration that you went through it, and yeah,

828
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 1: I honestly you shouldn't have to go through that. The

829
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 1: year's service that you've given in the police, I think, yeah,

830
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:17,719
Speaker 1: for what it's worth, because I can say it's a

831
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:21,440
Speaker 1: path I've walked to a degree that just hold your

832
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:23,960
Speaker 1: head up, hi, you know what you did you know

833
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:26,759
Speaker 1: how this was stopped. And when it's all said and done,

834
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 1: if people that you don't respect the criticize and you

835
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 1: don't worry about the criticism. I know it's frustrating, but

836
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:36,520
Speaker 1: hold your head up because I understand the anks that

837
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 1: can cause. For what it's worth.

838
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 6: Sorry, Carlin, You're challenge the challenges and Gary you I

839
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 6: the three of us understand the question, at the end

840
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 6: of an unfair and during experience, how do I get

841
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:51,399
Speaker 6: my reputation back?

842
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 2: And Mark I felt for him.

843
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 6: This nonsense that was written without with almost no consultation,

844
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:02,799
Speaker 6: and it's the official account of the New South Wales

845
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:07,800
Speaker 6: Police Force, untested, without an alternative view being put forward,

846
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:10,359
Speaker 6: and all that media tsunami.

847
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 2: That's Mark Goodwin.

848
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:15,120
Speaker 6: I'm not the least bit surprised he was humiliated out

849
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:16,640
Speaker 6: of the New Southwest Police Force.

850
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 2: It's a sad story.

851
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 6: And the only way the two of us can get

852
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 6: some of our reputation back is to write what really

853
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 6: happened and hopefully that is seen as a better account

854
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 6: of what happened. In my own case, I could have

855
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 6: done nothing.

856
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:35,760
Speaker 2: Gary. In fact, a number of political and parliamentary.

857
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 6: People said why don't you just step back and let

858
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 6: the cops fight it out themselves. I said, I'm not

859
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:43,880
Speaker 6: going to see a commander get vaporized.

860
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:45,440
Speaker 2: After what he did.

861
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:49,880
Speaker 6: This guy returned peace to the streets of Sydney. I

862
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 6: know what he did, and I know he hasn't been consulted,

863
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:56,359
Speaker 6: and I can smell why this process was set up.

864
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:59,360
Speaker 6: I had very little to do with criticisms of that

865
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 6: laudable police performance. So I put a pause on it,

866
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:07,719
Speaker 6: and the Commissioner agreed there had been insufficient consultation. He

867
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:12,040
Speaker 6: designated it as a draft until that consultation had finished.

868
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 2: In the House.

869
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 6: I referred it to as a draft in parliament. In

870
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:21,280
Speaker 6: Parliament and that was considered misleading because there were leaks

871
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:24,840
Speaker 6: coming out and the author of it did a very

872
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:27,720
Speaker 6: unpleasant interview on the front page of the Herald referring

873
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 6: to his report and my criticism of it requiring further consultation. Therefore,

874
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 6: it was a report, wasn't a draft. I'd misled Parliament

875
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:40,800
Speaker 6: for which I should then resign. And it's absurd now

876
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:44,719
Speaker 6: on the range of things requiring a minister's resignation in

877
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:47,960
Speaker 6: the last fifty years, Gary, I know this is self serving.

878
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:51,720
Speaker 6: It is the least serious of any I've ever seen

879
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:55,759
Speaker 6: or read about. Yeah, was sacked because I referred to

880
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:56,760
Speaker 6: a report as a draft.

881
00:45:57,239 --> 00:46:01,400
Speaker 1: I was again to say, the floor Parliament, it's not

882
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 1: just even warrant.

883
00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:06,680
Speaker 6: Well, the other issue was I did get asked had

884
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 6: I spoken to ABCTV and I said no, and that

885
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:14,840
Speaker 6: was considered misleading. Well, I'd actually spoken to ABC Radio,

886
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:19,040
Speaker 6: not ABC TV, and in the scheme of things, that

887
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:22,080
Speaker 6: then got seen as the second misleading. And then the

888
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:24,799
Speaker 6: Premier said, oh, look all this media fanfait. But he

889
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 6: never actually said I'm getting rid of you because of

890
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 6: misleading the house, because I haven't.

891
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:32,080
Speaker 2: He explained. It was the.

892
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 6: Media ferociousness to how I was being presented now. As

893
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 6: Bob Carr, Paul Keating, Bob hawk All said to me

894
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:42,320
Speaker 6: at the time, my goodness, you'd hardly have a cabinet

895
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:45,440
Speaker 6: left if a minister got sacked for bad media. It

896
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:49,160
Speaker 6: was pretty traumatizing. As I said, I figured I had

897
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:52,840
Speaker 6: years to serve I'd done a good job, I'd supported

898
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:55,480
Speaker 6: the cops, We did what was asked for us. I

899
00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:58,320
Speaker 6: didn't expect any thank yous, but nor did I expect

900
00:46:58,320 --> 00:46:59,800
Speaker 6: a career ending event.

901
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:03,280
Speaker 1: It's almost like dancing with the devil, delving into policing,

902
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:06,240
Speaker 1: isn't it. There's so many people that have Yeah.

903
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:08,400
Speaker 6: And I was horrified at that. Why do you get involved?

904
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 6: Why don't you just leave it out?

905
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:12,960
Speaker 2: Yeah? I never was an injustice what was done to

906
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:13,560
Speaker 2: Mark Goodwin.

907
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:16,799
Speaker 1: Again, here I am offering out advice to you now,

908
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 1: and people might laugh because they hear how sometimes it's

909
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:22,759
Speaker 1: blatantly obvious. I haven't got over what happened to me.

910
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 1: But the same with you, Carl. I'd prefer to go

911
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:29,520
Speaker 1: down fighting, and go down doing what you believe is

912
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 1: right than cowering the cow towing.

913
00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:35,920
Speaker 6: The irony is I wrote a memoir, yeah, and a

914
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:38,759
Speaker 6: bit cathartic. But I also wrote about how I did

915
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 6: transport for the Olympics and built roads and roads and

916
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:44,680
Speaker 6: rail lines and all that my history and my romance

917
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:47,560
Speaker 6: with my wife. And it was a good cathartic process.

918
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:50,439
Speaker 6: But I said to Mark the other day, the good

919
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:52,879
Speaker 6: thing out of this is we've written this account which

920
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:56,440
Speaker 6: only a small part of maybe fifteen to twenty percent

921
00:47:56,520 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 6: is what happened to us personally, maybe eighty percent is

922
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 6: the story what happened, what could have happened and why

923
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:05,560
Speaker 6: did it happen and why has it not come back?

924
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:09,959
Speaker 6: And that's through our own personal and professional trauma. That's

925
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:10,600
Speaker 6: a good thing.

926
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:12,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think it's a good thing to get

927
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:15,520
Speaker 1: it out there because there is and I put my

928
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 1: hand up, like the misconceptions I've had and I've called

929
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:20,719
Speaker 1: a lot of things, and you, Jacob becomes part of

930
00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:21,760
Speaker 1: the Australian.

931
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 6: It must have happened because I saw it.

932
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 1: The way we communicate about the Cronulla riots or the

933
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:37,520
Speaker 1: Southern Cross tattoo and things like that. I want to

934
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:40,239
Speaker 1: focus and Mark, I think it was you before we

935
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:44,240
Speaker 1: started the podcast brought my attention to the back page

936
00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:46,280
Speaker 1: of the book or the back cover of the book.

937
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:49,440
Speaker 1: Talk us through that, because I do like on we

938
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:53,200
Speaker 1: talk some heavy stuff on this podcast, but I do

939
00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:56,800
Speaker 1: like stories that bring some joy to the world. Talk

940
00:48:56,880 --> 00:48:59,880
Speaker 1: us through what the back cover of your book is about.

941
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:00,279
Speaker 4: Yeah.

942
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:05,440
Speaker 3: Sure, after the dust settled of the Cronella rights and

943
00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:10,200
Speaker 3: revenge attacks, there was a lot of will in the

944
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:15,480
Speaker 3: community on both sides to form more relationships and open up.

945
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:20,359
Speaker 3: And as we've said in this podcast, there's the very

946
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:22,920
Speaker 3: small number of people from actually both sides of the

947
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:27,160
Speaker 3: events that were involved in not the slightest bit representative

948
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:34,960
Speaker 3: of their wider communities anyway. So then the Lebanese Muslim

949
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:38,400
Speaker 3: community leaders like Jim l Riffi, who we interview in

950
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:41,919
Speaker 3: the book here, and the Surf Life Saving New South

951
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:44,560
Speaker 3: Wales put on a program at the North Run at

952
00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:46,760
Speaker 3: the North Coronol, the Surf Club and it was called

953
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:49,520
Speaker 3: on the Same Wave and what it did was to

954
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:54,239
Speaker 3: train young Muslim life savers and to come and share

955
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:56,759
Speaker 3: in the beach and open up the beach and to

956
00:49:56,960 --> 00:49:59,920
Speaker 3: share in the experiences and the camaraderie that that is

957
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:03,680
Speaker 3: amongst life savers. And so they put on this program

958
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:05,520
Speaker 3: and I think we thought it was a very good

959
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:08,279
Speaker 3: fitting book. ND which is the rear of our book,

960
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:12,279
Speaker 3: is the photo of the actual graduation of these these

961
00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:14,320
Speaker 3: young young guys and ladies.

962
00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 4: And look, Lee Howell, who was.

963
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:21,879
Speaker 3: A former police officer, was actually the one that ran

964
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:24,000
Speaker 3: the program. He's a long term member of the Surf

965
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:27,719
Speaker 3: club down there and did an absolute fantastic job.

966
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:29,960
Speaker 4: But we've had a couple of laughs about.

967
00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:31,600
Speaker 3: The fact that when some of these kids turned up

968
00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:33,360
Speaker 3: they could barely swim, you know, and the life savers

969
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:35,600
Speaker 3: had to save them and they're supposed to be becoming life savers,

970
00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:38,000
Speaker 3: you know, and look, you know, to their absolute credit

971
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:41,160
Speaker 3: and their persistence, they showed those young kids they did

972
00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:43,920
Speaker 3: a fantastic committed effort, and so did the life savers

973
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:46,120
Speaker 3: down there. And then they all got through. They had

974
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:48,000
Speaker 3: that they weren't at a lower the standards for them.

975
00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:52,240
Speaker 3: There's a certain requirement that's the Surf Bronze Medallion required

976
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:54,600
Speaker 3: to become a Surf life Saver, and they all passed,

977
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:57,520
Speaker 3: and they all passed legitimately, and they put in a lot,

978
00:50:57,560 --> 00:51:01,360
Speaker 3: a lot of effort. And on the book is the

979
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:04,520
Speaker 3: big beaming smiles and faces of these young guys and

980
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:08,919
Speaker 3: girls who were the first ever Muslim life savers on

981
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:12,000
Speaker 3: the beach in Australia. And the girl in the middle

982
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:15,120
Speaker 3: we actually interview in the book. Her name's Mecha Lala,

983
00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:19,160
Speaker 3: fantastic young lady. And you'll see that she's wearing the

984
00:51:19,239 --> 00:51:23,839
Speaker 3: first ever burkini that was manufactured and designed for her

985
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:28,680
Speaker 3: and that now is seen on beaches and his swimming

986
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:30,360
Speaker 3: pools and so forth all over the world.

987
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:31,480
Speaker 4: And it went worldwide.

988
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:35,080
Speaker 3: But it started and a bit of an unknown fact

989
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:37,120
Speaker 3: that actually started with the Cornella riots and this surf

990
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:41,480
Speaker 3: life saving program. After and we're interviewing Mecca and she says,

991
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:44,279
Speaker 3: Mark and Carl, I couldn't believe it. You know, one minute,

992
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:46,840
Speaker 3: I'm just a young girl doing the lifesaver program, and

993
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:49,799
Speaker 3: next minute I'm on billboards all over the world and

994
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:53,279
Speaker 3: I've got journalists from New York wanting to interview me

995
00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 3: and stuff.

996
00:51:53,719 --> 00:51:55,400
Speaker 4: So it was it was terrific. You know, it was

997
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:57,000
Speaker 4: a fantastic.

998
00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:59,280
Speaker 1: Who would have been the next story Cronala to become

999
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:00,800
Speaker 1: the fashion cap of the world.

1000
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:05,919
Speaker 6: What's important, Gary, The story of Cronulla begins and ends

1001
00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:11,240
Speaker 6: with lifeguards and the troubling events begins with our front

1002
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:13,200
Speaker 6: cover and ends with the back.

1003
00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:15,920
Speaker 1: I can see when you pointed out the front and

1004
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:18,759
Speaker 1: this symbolic there's there's a journey through it, and that's

1005
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:21,040
Speaker 1: where we've come to. And that's what you would like

1006
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:24,640
Speaker 1: to think comes from a situation or a series of events.

1007
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:28,040
Speaker 1: What happened there bring it to contemporary times, like the

1008
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:31,040
Speaker 1: world is a crazy place at the moment. It's just

1009
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:32,799
Speaker 1: I don't know, I get a sense like it's a

1010
00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:34,000
Speaker 1: powder powder keg.

1011
00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:34,400
Speaker 2: At the moment.

1012
00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:38,479
Speaker 1: Maybe I'm looking at it too negatively, but this type

1013
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:41,480
Speaker 1: of thing. We don't want it ever occurring in our

1014
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 1: country if we can help it, and it occurs across

1015
00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:46,640
Speaker 1: the world in so many different places. How do you

1016
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:49,520
Speaker 1: think the lessons that we've learned from what happened at

1017
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 1: Cranulla and where we can take it from there to

1018
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 1: prevent this type of thing?

1019
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:58,560
Speaker 6: Just this a bit, How what can we apply from

1020
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:02,359
Speaker 6: this to more contemporary troubles. What I say is some

1021
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:05,200
Speaker 6: of our more contemporary troubles in different parts of the

1022
00:53:05,239 --> 00:53:10,840
Speaker 6: world are exponentially worse, like one hundred times worse. But

1023
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:15,640
Speaker 6: if people want to get a better understanding of tribalism

1024
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:20,920
Speaker 6: and fractious group identity and what's really going on in

1025
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:24,920
Speaker 6: people's minds, in the minds of a group, there's something

1026
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:28,240
Speaker 6: we can provide. And I think it's about the hope

1027
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:31,759
Speaker 6: of searching for what we have in common. And there

1028
00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:38,040
Speaker 6: are always differences. Sometimes it leads to awful violence and persistent,

1029
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:42,320
Speaker 6: pervasive trouble between two groups. But I think the message

1030
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:45,880
Speaker 6: we've given out of Cronulla is, let's hope for that

1031
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:49,319
Speaker 6: search for what we have in common, what makes us

1032
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:52,479
Speaker 6: the same, what makes us feel comfortable with each other,

1033
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:56,840
Speaker 6: not what would not how we're different all, it's easy

1034
00:53:56,920 --> 00:54:01,200
Speaker 6: to find difference and discord and divisive. Let's look for

1035
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:06,360
Speaker 6: what drives us commonality. That's probably a lesson out of

1036
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:10,359
Speaker 6: the book for more contemporary problems here as people here

1037
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:12,279
Speaker 6: interpret what's happening overseas.

1038
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:15,120
Speaker 1: Okay, that's a sound advice, Mark.

1039
00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:18,120
Speaker 3: Look, I think it was a big wake up call Gary,

1040
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:23,799
Speaker 3: and how people responded to it back then was some

1041
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:25,399
Speaker 3: of the ones that responded to it on the beach

1042
00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:27,279
Speaker 3: and in the revenge attacks was disgraceful.

1043
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:30,759
Speaker 4: But it went away. Why did it go away? We

1044
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:31,959
Speaker 4: look very carefully at that.

1045
00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:36,799
Speaker 3: In the book, and in our view, is because that

1046
00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:41,000
Speaker 3: it wasn't driven we think by hardcore racism in Australia.

1047
00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:44,000
Speaker 3: And look, there's racism exists, and there was racism on

1048
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:47,240
Speaker 3: display on the Dankronal and certainly in the revenge attax,

1049
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:48,879
Speaker 3: but it.

1050
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:50,200
Speaker 4: Wasn't the causal factor for it.

1051
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:52,480
Speaker 3: The causal factor, as I explained in Part one, was

1052
00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:55,560
Speaker 3: the behavior. You know, there was groups coming to the

1053
00:54:55,560 --> 00:54:57,560
Speaker 3: beach and it was all about the behavior and the

1054
00:54:57,640 --> 00:55:01,319
Speaker 3: spatial domain and male preening and forth, But it wasn't

1055
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:04,279
Speaker 3: about It wasn't a hard core thing about racism. But

1056
00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:06,920
Speaker 3: I think this really drew it to the attension.

1057
00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:08,839
Speaker 4: It was a wake up call.

1058
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:12,600
Speaker 3: I think there's been a lot of discussion since, and

1059
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:15,400
Speaker 3: certainly people want to put it behind them, and certainly

1060
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:18,520
Speaker 3: now no intention of ours to raise the skeletons of

1061
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:21,520
Speaker 3: the past through this book, but we felt that it

1062
00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:24,640
Speaker 3: was extremely important to set the record straight of a

1063
00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:27,680
Speaker 3: factual account because you know, not that I know of

1064
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:32,560
Speaker 3: is that there's no actual participants in the actual events

1065
00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:37,120
Speaker 3: have been involved in any such writings or documentaries and

1066
00:55:37,160 --> 00:55:39,279
Speaker 3: so forth that have been done. And you know, from

1067
00:55:39,320 --> 00:55:45,080
Speaker 3: what we've seen, there's a very secwed recording and documentaries

1068
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:49,920
Speaker 3: and academic research papers and stuff that are they're just

1069
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:52,040
Speaker 3: not correct because they're not the full facts. So what

1070
00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:55,200
Speaker 3: we've done is provide a very factual account from where

1071
00:55:55,239 --> 00:55:58,239
Speaker 3: to go, all warts and all, and we certainly hope

1072
00:55:58,239 --> 00:56:01,399
Speaker 3: that this becomes the go to reference because as I said,

1073
00:56:01,640 --> 00:56:05,040
Speaker 3: it is done by firstly by tap participants. Lots of

1074
00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:07,920
Speaker 3: participants that were involved are also interviewed in it from

1075
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:12,759
Speaker 3: both sides of the divide, and it is just a

1076
00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 3: factual account. Some might like it, some will, but it

1077
00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:18,920
Speaker 3: is what it is and it needs to be recorded.

1078
00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:20,400
Speaker 4: It's now historic reference.

1079
00:56:20,600 --> 00:56:24,239
Speaker 6: That's an important thing. Gary. I often get asked, what

1080
00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:26,680
Speaker 6: would you do if your elbow on issue X?

1081
00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:28,200
Speaker 2: What should Dutton do?

1082
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:28,520
Speaker 6: Well?

1083
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:29,839
Speaker 2: What should mens you? And I go?

1084
00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:33,160
Speaker 6: I'm not I'm not there. I don't have the job.

1085
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:36,440
Speaker 6: There was a time when I had the job. I

1086
00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:39,799
Speaker 6: made the calls. I made the decisions. This was a

1087
00:56:39,840 --> 00:56:44,160
Speaker 6: big one and I've explained them. Mark Goodwin had the job,

1088
00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:49,160
Speaker 6: made the calls. But we can't comment on other polleys,

1089
00:56:49,480 --> 00:56:50,520
Speaker 6: other police leaders.

1090
00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:52,839
Speaker 2: Well, we count on this, we have.

1091
00:56:53,360 --> 00:56:55,400
Speaker 1: I think the fact that you've done the book and

1092
00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:59,360
Speaker 1: you were so closely involved in it, and it's not

1093
00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:02,759
Speaker 1: in the Mote book, it's not driven by and I've

1094
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:05,680
Speaker 1: seen in prep for this, I was watching all the documentaries,

1095
00:57:05,719 --> 00:57:08,480
Speaker 1: all the coverage of it, and reading the book, and

1096
00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:10,800
Speaker 1: there was a lot of emotion that was put into

1097
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:14,959
Speaker 1: some of the telling of the story. I enjoyed the read.

1098
00:57:15,719 --> 00:57:18,040
Speaker 1: You know, it always takes me back into policing, which

1099
00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:20,439
Speaker 1: is a good thing and a bad thing in a way.

1100
00:57:20,640 --> 00:57:23,480
Speaker 1: But I enjoyed the read. And look, we'll wrap up

1101
00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:25,360
Speaker 1: now and I just want to thank both of you.

1102
00:57:25,440 --> 00:57:29,400
Speaker 1: I know you've paid putting everything aside with what's happened

1103
00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:32,640
Speaker 1: at what happened at Cronulla and the flow on effect

1104
00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:35,040
Speaker 1: the work that you did at the time at a

1105
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:38,240
Speaker 1: crucial time. Both of you you stood up and did

1106
00:57:38,240 --> 00:57:40,720
Speaker 1: your job and served the community which you were both

1107
00:57:40,760 --> 00:57:44,160
Speaker 1: there to do. And so congratulations on what you did

1108
00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:47,160
Speaker 1: did at the time, because I look at it as

1109
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:49,640
Speaker 1: an ex law enforcement officer and I know the potential

1110
00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:51,520
Speaker 1: that was a time bomb waiting to go off, and

1111
00:57:51,520 --> 00:57:53,960
Speaker 1: that could have gone a lot worse. So full credit

1112
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:56,960
Speaker 1: to the work that you did did there, guys, Thank you,

1113
00:57:57,240 --> 00:58:00,280
Speaker 1: and I hope life's good for you and make it

1114
00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:02,919
Speaker 1: from me. Sometimes you get wrong and you've just got

1115
00:58:02,920 --> 00:58:05,400
Speaker 1: to keep on. And I see you're smiling. So I

1116
00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:07,800
Speaker 1: think that's the way that we got to approach life.

1117
00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:09,680
Speaker 2: Wake up each morning and other day.

1118
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:12,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, here I am still standing. Thanks guys, Thank you.

1119
00:58:12,800 --> 00:58:13,960
Speaker 4: It's still a Warman vertical.

1120
00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:15,360
Speaker 2: I say, thank you.

1121
00:58:19,480 --> 00:58:23,080
Speaker 1: Well, that's in a nutshell what the Cronulla Rights were about.

1122
00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:25,600
Speaker 1: I hope it gave you an understanding of what took

1123
00:58:25,640 --> 00:58:29,520
Speaker 1: place during those I call them shameful times in Australian history.

1124
00:58:29,560 --> 00:58:31,440
Speaker 1: I don't think it's anything that we can be proud of.

1125
00:58:32,080 --> 00:58:34,160
Speaker 1: But the two people we spoke to the day. They

1126
00:58:34,160 --> 00:58:37,880
Speaker 1: were the people responsible for ensuring law and order. But

1127
00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:39,920
Speaker 1: the message that I take away from it, I'd like

1128
00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:42,200
Speaker 1: to take some a good message away from it. What

1129
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:46,760
Speaker 1: started out as a right ended up in people coming

1130
00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:49,560
Speaker 1: together and making a difference, as demonstrated by the back

1131
00:58:49,640 --> 00:58:52,840
Speaker 1: cover of their book, The Cronulla Rights Inside Story, where

1132
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:56,520
Speaker 1: you've got a group of Middle Eastern Muslims that have

1133
00:58:56,640 --> 00:58:59,680
Speaker 1: joined the surf Club and learning to be surf life savers.

1134
00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:02,160
Speaker 1: I think if any good comes out of what occurred

1135
00:59:02,160 --> 00:59:05,080
Speaker 1: that Cronulla paps that Semach, we should hold on to

1136
00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:14,000
Speaker 1: h