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Speaker 1: I had spent over a decade wishing I could go

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Speaker 1: back to eighteen year old me and never have walked

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Speaker 1: into a club, and I couldn't do that, and I

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Speaker 1: hated every moment since because of how it made me

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Speaker 1: hate myself of the lack of control. I felt in

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Speaker 1: that environment that this is unique to this addiction, because

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Speaker 1: it wasn't driven like I've spent so long trying to

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Speaker 1: think is what is driving me? And it was actually

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Speaker 1: this feeling like I wanted to go back and to

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Speaker 1: have never ever gambled, and I couldn't.

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Speaker 2: What's happening? Thank you so much for listening to the show.

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Speaker 2: This is better than yesterday. Useful tools and useful conversations

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Speaker 2: to help make your day to day better than yesterday.

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Speaker 2: Every episode since twenty and thirteen, I'm watching Againsburg. Thanks

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Speaker 2: for coming, see your first time here. Glad you're here.

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Speaker 2: If you've been here before, welcome back. Not that you

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Speaker 2: out anywhere. You're listening to this on the same phone

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Speaker 2: you listen to the last one unless you've got a

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Speaker 2: new one for Christmas. Question how does a bit of

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Speaker 2: harmless fun turn into a crisis? Hiding in plain sight?

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Speaker 2: And what does the gambling industry not want you to

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Speaker 2: know about the way it works, the games they design.

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Speaker 2: Not only that, How do we reclaim our lives from

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Speaker 2: a system, in this case, the gambling industry system. How

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Speaker 2: do we reclaim our lives from a system which is

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Speaker 2: designed to take everything from us? We've all seen the

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Speaker 2: very bright and shiny gambling ads on TV. They come

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Speaker 2: up on your phone all the time. There's celebrities that

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Speaker 2: can involved. Shacks there, Drake's there, what could be wrong?

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Speaker 2: Come on, Punt punt. Today's guest says, it's not harmless entertainment,

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Speaker 2: it is a public health crisis hiding plain sight. Kate

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Speaker 2: Ccelgia is a national advocate for gambling reform. She speaks

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Speaker 2: from personal experience. She had a twelve year gambling addiction

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Speaker 2: that cost her more than half a million dollars, almost

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Speaker 2: cost her her life. This conversation does delve into that,

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Speaker 2: so look after yourself if you need to. Kate's now

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Speaker 2: spent more than a decade fighting to change a system

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Speaker 2: that profits from addiction. In this conversation, we unpack how

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Speaker 2: shame over addiction can keep a person silent for years,

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Speaker 2: keep them from getting help, and why gambling harm is

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Speaker 2: often invisible all the way to the point where it

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Speaker 2: is catastrophic. We're also going to have a look at

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Speaker 2: how the gambling industry is designed, from grooming behaviors that

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Speaker 2: start in childhood as losses disguised as wins, to ways

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Speaker 2: to keep people coming back. And then we're going to

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Speaker 2: get into what real reform could actually look like lost limits,

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Speaker 2: advertising bands, accountability for banks, for betting apps, and why

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Speaker 2: movements like Lost Limits not Lost Lives are pushing for

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Speaker 2: changes that could save families, finances and the lives of Australians.

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Speaker 2: This is a difficult conversation to hear, but it is

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Speaker 2: incredibly hopeful because once you understand the system, you can

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Speaker 2: clearly see why it's not a personal failure. It's not

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Speaker 2: and that's the really most powerful thing I think I

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Speaker 2: got out of this. Change is not only possible once

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Speaker 2: you understand this, but well lever adere enjoy. How are

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Speaker 2: you today, I'm good? How are you I'm good? Thank you, Kate,

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Speaker 2: it's lovely to see you again. We met in camera

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Speaker 2: at the Punter's Politics thing, which was a fundraiser to

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Speaker 2: raise money for a lobbyist, which I do. I do

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Speaker 2: like the concept of that if don't know politics is

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Speaker 2: he's a I guess what do you call him? A YouTube?

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Speaker 2: He's a political commentator. His name's Conrad and he has

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Speaker 2: rightly come to the conclusion that if you want change

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Speaker 2: to happen those country, what you really need is a lobbyistn't. Yes,

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Speaker 2: you can hire, you can get someone to be voted

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Speaker 2: into a seat, but that's one vote eventually in the

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Speaker 2: Senate or their House of Reps. You need a lobbyist

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Speaker 2: to go door to door and say, hey, how you going.

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Speaker 2: So man, I was asked Tom see it at a

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Speaker 2: great night. I met you there with one of Senator

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Speaker 2: Pocock's team. What work are you doing with David.

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Speaker 1: Well, I've been a national advocate for gambling reform for

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Speaker 1: a decade and so you know, I work with him

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Speaker 1: and his team on trying to further gambling reform. It's

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Speaker 1: just absolutely despicable that we are the nation experiencing the

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Speaker 1: highest levels of gambling harm in the world.

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Speaker 2: Gambling harm. It's that's impossible, mate. People are clearly doing

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Speaker 2: it responsibly, and they are and they are really thinking

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Speaker 2: about what they're losing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, all thirty two billion dollars of them.

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Speaker 2: Hey, responsible money. That is responsible, as I always say,

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Speaker 2: Like back when I was drinking on the side of

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Speaker 2: the can it said drink responsible. It's like a fucking

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Speaker 2: am it's out of the ski and warming. This is

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Speaker 2: being responsible, which is and for a lot of people

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Speaker 2: they might not understand. I think it's hilarious that helps available.

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Speaker 2: At the end of the one minute long ad, people think,

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Speaker 2: if they've never had a problem with addiction, oh, they're

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Speaker 2: doing the right thing. Yeah. It's like an out on

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Speaker 2: a smoking pack of cigarette packet. It's like, oh, that's

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Speaker 2: the right thing. By the time you get to an ad,

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Speaker 2: by the time you get to the label, it's way

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Speaker 2: too fucking late. Yes, you're so disregulated. It doesn't matter.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't matter.

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Speaker 1: The industry is so disregulated.

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Speaker 2: Well, as we have discovered in recent times. I'm sure

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Speaker 2: there's restaurants up in Darwin. They have really great, really

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Speaker 2: great turnover for lunches. We'll get to that. I've got

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Speaker 2: my own history with addiction, you know, I've talked a

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Speaker 2: lot about on the shows, mostly alcohol and various other pharmaceuticals.

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Speaker 2: But that was just one of the avoidant behaviors that

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Speaker 2: shows up. Avoided behaviors can take many forms, mostly things

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Speaker 2: that end in ing, drinking, smoking, shopping, fucking, gambling. All

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Speaker 2: get in there to try to make the bad feelings stop,

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Speaker 2: and at first they work with then they don't, and

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Speaker 2: they're sold to us through whatever ads we have on

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Speaker 2: our televisions or in our radios, or in our feeds,

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Speaker 2: or on the jerseys of the players that we watch

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Speaker 2: playing the games. We love that it's fun, it's fun,

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Speaker 2: and it's fine. I have a flutter minimalizing words these

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Speaker 2: Harma's words. It's a flutter, it's fine, it's a multi

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Speaker 2: it's fine, gonna win with my mates. Yeah, but that's

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Speaker 2: not the reality of it. When did you first ever

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Speaker 2: know what gambling was. I remember being taken to a

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Speaker 2: tab with my mum before a Melbourne Cup when I

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Speaker 2: was about eleven. I think she told me to pick

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Speaker 2: some numbers. I was like, yeah, did it?

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Speaker 1: Yes? That was that well. In kindergarten I was exposed

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Speaker 1: to Melbourne Cup for the first time and that was

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Speaker 1: the beginning of having this feeling that I need to

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Speaker 1: put a bet on Melbourne Cup or orse I missing

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Speaker 1: out on something. So that grooming happened very early. But

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Speaker 1: as far as poker machines which ended up, you know,

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Speaker 1: almost taking my life. That was at eighteen with my

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Speaker 1: boyfriend who had been using them for about two years before.

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Speaker 1: I want to just join him at the local RSL,

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Speaker 1: and that pressing the buttons a few times and getting

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Speaker 1: an early win was this gateway into a relationship with

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Speaker 1: the machine that I didn't see coming at all.

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Speaker 2: So two things I just noticed. And I'm sure you're

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Speaker 2: very careful about your language, but I noticed that you

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Speaker 2: used the word grooming just then, and you weren't playing

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Speaker 2: the machine you're using, and it's I'm sure you're being

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Speaker 2: quite deliberate about that language, but could you explain why

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Speaker 2: you've chosen that way to describe it.

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Speaker 1: It's really important to frame this landscape correctly because the

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Speaker 1: gambling industry has essentially controlled the narrative for seventy years

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Speaker 1: in New South Wales around marketing products that are harmful

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Speaker 1: and built for addiction, but making them widely accessible without

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Speaker 1: consumer protections in place, and making them seem like they're

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Speaker 1: just harmless fun. And the words on the machine say play,

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Speaker 1: You're not playing, you are gambling, and the fact that

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Speaker 1: they are in all of our social spaces gives this

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Speaker 1: perception that they are just a benign thing to engage with,

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Speaker 1: but that's not the case. They are intentionally built for addiction.

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Speaker 1: And when I finally realized that I actually used the

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Speaker 1: machine exactly how it had been designed for me to use,

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Speaker 1: it was such a relief because for a decade and

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Speaker 1: a half I kept asking myself what's wrong with me?

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Speaker 1: And I couldn't arrive at any you know, anything that

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Speaker 1: may sense. No services that I accessed offered any insight.

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Speaker 1: The services back in the early two thousands were they

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Speaker 1: really didn't exist.

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Speaker 2: It was so.

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Speaker 1: Not prioritized and it still isn't as the public health

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Speaker 1: issue that it is. New South Wales lost over eight

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Speaker 1: billion dollars last year on poke machines alone. How can

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Speaker 1: a state with eight million people lose eight billion dollars

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Speaker 1: on poker machines? That's wild.

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Speaker 2: That's a thousand bucks each at least eight yeah, eight

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Speaker 2: thousand million, yeah, eight billion, one thousand bucks each. So

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Speaker 2: you mentioned that it started to get using these machines,

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Speaker 2: started to get caught up in a relationship. And when

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Speaker 2: you're eighteen and hormones of firing those relationships, you know,

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Speaker 2: you don't talk much. So when you do leave ours,

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Speaker 2: you're going to a social space, which in you said.

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Speaker 2: I grew up in Queensland. We didn't have pokenuntil the

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Speaker 2: early nineties. It's a tricky thing. Pokey is are the

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Speaker 2: reason we have state of origin. But we could talk

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Speaker 2: about that la. Yeah. So having it as a part

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Speaker 2: of your relationship and your entry way to being an

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Speaker 2: adult and socializing and stuff like that, it is very normalized.

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Speaker 2: But when did you start to notice that it was

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Speaker 2: you were doing what other people weren't doing.

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Speaker 1: Well, I was doing what other people were doing, but

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Speaker 1: nobody talked about it. You know, there were plenty of

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Speaker 1: people at that time experiencing harm same, just the same

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Speaker 1: as I was, but it's so hidden. It wasn't spoken about.

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Speaker 1: There was nobody publicly talking about gambling harm. So I

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Speaker 1: was to think, it's just me. I don't know what's

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Speaker 1: going on. I don't know why. Once I'm there, I

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Speaker 1: can't stop accessing as much money as I can get

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Speaker 1: my hands on. And that overwhelming desire to just the

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Speaker 1: next press, the next press, the next press. It's just

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Speaker 1: conditioning like no other, and in such a hijacking way

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Speaker 1: that we are simply not built for as human beings

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Speaker 1: one industry inside it said we built a machine that

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Speaker 1: overrides human instincts. And I just burst into tears when

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Speaker 1: he said those words of truth, because when I was

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Speaker 1: experiencing it, you know, the only narrative, as I said,

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Speaker 1: was what's wrong with me?

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Speaker 2: A shame, I'm a piece of shit. I can't stop

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Speaker 2: I've got a problem, Yes, I've got I should be

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Speaker 2: able to stop this. I can stop other things for

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Speaker 2: people who may have not who may not you know,

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Speaker 2: kind of understand exactly what we're talking about. What is

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Speaker 2: the what's the habit loop and the exploits of that

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Speaker 2: habit loop that these machines. So when we talk about

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Speaker 2: the way the human behavior happens, there's a habit loop.

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Speaker 2: Like I have a cup of tea in my head,

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Speaker 2: I feel a thirst so there's hormones gone from whatever,

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Speaker 2: go a bit thirsty, had my meds today? Okay, here's

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Speaker 2: a drink. Feeling a bit tired, so it's black tea.

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Speaker 2: Here we go. There's a relief, and then there's a

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Speaker 2: feeling of relief which will last probably for a few

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Speaker 2: minutes until our earth gets dry again. And then I'll

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Speaker 2: get the feeling and I will do that again, and

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Speaker 2: there is a sense of satisfaction. There is a build

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Speaker 2: of a pretension and there a sense of satisfaction once

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Speaker 2: I have you know, had the craving for the thing.

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Speaker 2: And this is how we feed ourselves. This is how

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Speaker 2: we find love, This is how we do work that's meaningful.

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Speaker 2: This is why if we've had a good workout, we'll

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Speaker 2: get this feeling afterwards we go I'm tired now, but

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Speaker 2: quite looking forward to tomorrow's class because I like this feeling.

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Speaker 2: But that has been hacked by the companies, the billion

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Speaker 2: dollar companies that make these machines. Can you explain how

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Speaker 2: that works in the shape of a poker machine place.

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Speaker 1: It works in a couple of different ways. So you're

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Speaker 1: getting positively rewarded through sounds and lights, and that may

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Speaker 1: not actually equate to winning. So they have a built

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Speaker 1: in feature called losses disguised as wins. So say you

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Speaker 1: bet five dollars and the lights and sounds will go

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Speaker 1: off like you've won, but it's only two dollars, so

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Speaker 1: it celebrates you losing three dollars in a way that's

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Speaker 1: actually registered in your brain as a win that you

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Speaker 1: know keeps you thinking okay and then there's loss near misses.

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Speaker 1: So this is where it'll have like one symbol symbol. Ah,

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Speaker 1: there's just one above or one below those occurrences because

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Speaker 1: they are not actual reels going around in a machine anymore.

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Speaker 1: It's all actually an Excel spreadsheet of math have been

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Speaker 1: programmed in to appear like fifty percent more than they

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Speaker 1: would statistically if if there were actual reels spinning around.

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Speaker 1: But even in their most primitive state, you know, they

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Speaker 1: used to be called the one arm bandit. Do you

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Speaker 1: know why they were called that?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Because you know, it was like it had in

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Speaker 2: the gun Slinger movies. There was a person with a

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Speaker 2: gun that would give me all your money, So you

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Speaker 2: pull this lever and it'd set up a clockwork kind

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Speaker 2: of reel and little tic tick tick tick together.

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Speaker 1: But the phrase I love best from one of the

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Speaker 1: mob bosses that set up Vegas is he said, we

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Speaker 1: wanted to be able to take people's money without having

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Speaker 1: to stick a gun in their face.

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Speaker 2: There you go.

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Speaker 1: So you know, it's just been so deliberate and intentional.

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Speaker 1: But from you know, the consumer perspective, you walk in

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Speaker 1: with hopes you might see big dollar amounts up. You

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Speaker 1: know that you could possibly win. So it's like electronic

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Speaker 1: heroin selling hope as an outcome.

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Speaker 2: It plays on a few other things that we're terrible

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Speaker 2: at as humans. One of them is understanding probabilities of

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Speaker 2: any number that is quite literally really bigger than fifty.

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Speaker 2: You ask someone to really give them, give you an

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Speaker 2: idea of what's one in fifty one chance this is

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Speaker 2: going to happen, they will think, oh, it's probably not

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Speaker 2: going to happen. Yeah, No, it's one in fifty one

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Speaker 2: chance it's going to happen. Softy days, it's going to

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Speaker 2: happen once. People are terrible at working out ratios and

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Speaker 2: odds and things like that as we go, And even

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Speaker 2: though they've got the sign right there, your odds of

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Speaker 2: winning max payout on this are less than it's some

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Speaker 2: ratio that is just gobbledygook, doesn't make sense to antibody.

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Speaker 2: So it really plays on people's inability to do the

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Speaker 2: kind of statistics that they need to make a rational choice.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, And the way that as I said, you're getting

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Speaker 1: this reward you in such high speed that the reels

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Speaker 1: have sped up now to being less than three seconds

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Speaker 1: a spin. And in New South Wales and act. You

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Speaker 1: can bet ten dollars a spin, so that's over six

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars in a half an hour. You can lose

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Speaker 1: I you know, it's it's so far from harmless fun,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, you know, here we are, decades later trying

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Speaker 1: to get reforms. And that's why I partnered with change

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Speaker 1: dot org to do lost limits not lost lives, because

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Speaker 1: if someone's experiencing gambling harm, they're actually four or five

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Speaker 1: times more likely to take their life than they are

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Speaker 1: from any other.

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Speaker 2: Form of addiction. Just taking a moment because we do

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Speaker 2: have to pay the bills here very quickly. If you're

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Speaker 2: interested in, I don't know, taking in something that is

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Speaker 2: kind of fun in the middle of all this conversation,

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Speaker 2: have you one, But there's a always a fun story

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Speaker 2: for you waiting at story Club. You can find the

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Speaker 2: link for the YouTube show right there in the show notes,

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Speaker 2: or that's also where you can buy my book, So

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Speaker 2: what now? What? Also back after the break is in

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Speaker 2: the show notes as well. You can jump in there

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Speaker 2: and get tickets for the next story Club show, which

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Speaker 2: is in February. Come and see it's we're in Sydney.

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Speaker 2: If you can't make to the show, what's the YouTube

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Speaker 2: we're back with katinasing. What I'd love to see in

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Speaker 2: Australia is legislation to decuver pull profit from addiction, because

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Speaker 2: right now we have industries like the alcohol industry and

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Speaker 2: the gambling industry and as a result, largely the sport industry.

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Speaker 2: And this is trust me. I fucking love watching footy

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Speaker 2: and I would hate to see what would happen to

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Speaker 2: footy if all that advertising revenue went away. Yet, the

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Speaker 2: amount of profit that comes from addiction, directly from addiction

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Speaker 2: in our country is repugnant and it is morally reprehensible,

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Speaker 2: and we cannot call ourselves good human beings for allowing

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Speaker 2: this to go on. Like we get really upset and

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Speaker 2: rightly so about other legislative things in our country that

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Speaker 2: have really let us down. We're trying really hard with

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Speaker 2: ages of age verification on mobile apps, in social media

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Speaker 2: and things, which is really important and really good. And

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Speaker 2: yet when you think about how much harm is being

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Speaker 2: caused by these industries that are so profitable and just

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Speaker 2: reap billions and billions of dollars off of misery, we're

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Speaker 2: fine with it because that's oh like this, that is

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Speaker 2: the guy where he rides a racehorse through his living room.

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Speaker 2: Oh I love this ad. He's got good mates. I

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Speaker 2: wish I had mates like that. I should get on

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Speaker 2: the app.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think that we are actually not fine

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Speaker 1: with it. As you know, there is overwhelming support for

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Speaker 1: an advertising band. It's like eighty five percent of Australians

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Speaker 1: don't want to see gambling ads because it's been so bombarding.

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Speaker 2: To the remaining fifteen percent on broadcast in NURL franchises.

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Speaker 1: Okay, correct, Okay, so it's just this morning. It's only

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Speaker 1: people that are actually profiting from this that are jumping

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Speaker 1: up and down. The rest of Australians are not okay

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Speaker 1: with seeing their best mate lose his house, losey's wife,

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Speaker 1: kill himself, you know, see his business go under go

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Speaker 1: to jail. They're the outcome that are happening like in

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Speaker 1: our suburbs to people we know. But we just haven't

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Speaker 1: been putting enough pressure on the decision makers to pull

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Speaker 1: the trigger on it. And people that have got the

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Speaker 1: ear of the politicians are making it seem like, you know,

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Speaker 1: the sky will fall if these things come to pass.

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Speaker 2: That advertising money will go elsewhere, it will You know

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Speaker 2: that that is a lot of that is a lot

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Speaker 2: of money that other markets and other products could do

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Speaker 2: a lot with. Yes, I guess yeah. There's another thing

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Speaker 2: that these industries really pray on, and much like fossil

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Speaker 2: fuels the way that they have cigarettes, they've done the

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Speaker 2: very similar thing cigarettes that kind of started and fossil

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Speaker 2: fuel industry followed, is make it the end user's fault.

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Speaker 2: It's the end users fault. You're the reason that you're

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Speaker 2: you're in a fucking holy You're the reason why you

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Speaker 2: can't get back in the black by Monday because you're

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Speaker 2: a shit better. You should bed better? What mats bad.

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Speaker 2: The other thing that we do as addicts is the

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Speaker 2: number one symptom of addiction is convincing you that you

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Speaker 2: don't have it, and the number two symptom is that

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Speaker 2: it will defend itself. It'll defend itself by isolating you

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Speaker 2: from people that point out there might be something going

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Speaker 2: on and it or protect itself at all costs by

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Speaker 2: trying to justify, justify, justify, and normalized, normalized, normalized before

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Speaker 2: you realize that things were really bad. Is there a

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Speaker 2: day that you look back on and I go, I

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Speaker 2: just thought that was normal.

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Speaker 1: There was so much that I look back now and

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Speaker 1: reflect on and just I was in existence mode. I

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Speaker 1: was not living. I was just not okay. But there

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Speaker 1: was no answers that made any sense to how I

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Speaker 1: went from being a normal eighteen year old to all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden just not being able to be in

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Speaker 1: a social environment without being drawn to a machine. It

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Speaker 1: absolutely blindsides people in a way that is unparalleled.

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Speaker 2: Let me give you an example what I'm asking about.

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Speaker 2: Often talk about this when I'm on stage and talking

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Speaker 2: about mental health in the workplace and stuff about avoidant

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Speaker 2: behavior and how normalized it can feel. And that when

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Speaker 2: I was still drinking and using at one point in

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Speaker 2: an afternoon on a Tuesday, for example, by two thirdy

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Speaker 2: the afternoon, I'll be day drinking in my house. I

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Speaker 2: was fancy. I had two monitors in two thousand and six,

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Speaker 2: and so on this. You know, I'm gambling two separate

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Speaker 2: I'm played two separate incidet poker tournaments, gabbing away hundreds

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Speaker 2: of US dollars an hour because it's not cash, it's

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Speaker 2: just those noises. And on this one, just like increasingly

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Speaker 2: reprehensible porn, just feverishly masturbating and just for hours and

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Speaker 2: that if you call me, so what are you doing,

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Speaker 2: I'm saying it out home because that was just Tuesday.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't I didn't feel disgusting. I didn't feel horrible.

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Speaker 2: It's just, oh, got a couple hours, that's what I'm

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Speaker 2: just after lunch. What I'm gonna do. I don't know

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Speaker 2: what I'm gonna do. That's what I'll do. That was just,

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Speaker 2: it was just it. It wasn't like a I can't wait.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't weird. It wasn't odd. And after that I

383
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Speaker 2: would go across the street to the tire takeaway shop

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Speaker 2: and grab a pad tie and then you know, watch DVD,

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Speaker 2: go to bed. That was just it. It was completely fine.

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Speaker 2: I didn't think anything of it. Yeah, but I look

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Speaker 2: back now and go that, yes, sometimes it be like

388
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Speaker 2: ten straight hours and there's a lord of sawble In

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Speaker 2: and Europine required like, but that's what it was.

390
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Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, I didn't think.

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Speaker 2: Anything of it.

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Speaker 1: I think walking out of a club like I couldn't

393
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Speaker 1: even tell you how many times. But on the worst day,

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Speaker 1: I accessed twelve thousand dollars straight out of our mortgage,

395
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Speaker 1: just going straight out the front, going to the bank,

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Speaker 1: coming back in nobody said anything. And do you know

397
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Speaker 1: I was trying to win ten thousand dollars? Like that's

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Speaker 1: how you It doesn't make any sense.

399
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Speaker 2: Hang on, so you're at a pokey and why did

400
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:39,159
Speaker 2: you get this thing in the head that I got

401
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 2: to win ten thousand dollars today?

402
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:44,200
Speaker 1: Because the number at the top was about to click

403
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Speaker 1: over to ten thousand, and so I just decided that

404
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Speaker 1: that's what I'm going to win. And so I start,

405
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Speaker 1: you know, you start with one hundred. Okay, that's gone

406
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Speaker 1: in like ten presses, so okay, go access ATMs, can't

407
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Speaker 1: access any more cash out of the ATMs in the venue,

408
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Speaker 1: I'll go across the road to the bank just withdraw

409
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Speaker 1: crack cash over the counter, you know, six thousand dollars

410
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Speaker 1: in and it's clicked over to the ten and it

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Speaker 1: hasn't paid it. And I was like, what do I

412
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Speaker 1: do here? You know, like I've got to keep going

413
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Speaker 1: to try and get that money back. So I keep

414
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Speaker 1: going out, come back in, keep feeding.

415
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Speaker 2: Anyone at the bank saying anything to you.

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Speaker 1: No one, no one's anyone.

417
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Speaker 2: At the venue saying anything to you. Zero, absolutely aside

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Speaker 2: from would you luck another drink?

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Speaker 1: Not a word, nothing, and I sat there after I'd

420
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Speaker 1: finished the twelve it's still on ten thousand now and

421
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Speaker 1: five dollars, you know. And I that day I ran

422
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Speaker 1: out of time, not out of money.

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Speaker 2: I had to go, Oh my god.

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Speaker 1: And it was so hard to leave knowing that someone

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Speaker 1: could just walk in and sit down and take what

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00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 1: I would call at that time my money, my money,

427
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Speaker 1: my money, that's my money, that's my money.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, how like? And so then you've got to run

429
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Speaker 2: out of table to leave. And what's the next thing

430
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 2: that shows up? It is that you know, it's, oh

431
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Speaker 2: my god, I'm deleting all of those follos on my computer.

432
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:41,119
Speaker 2: I'm disgusting. It's I'm burning the bank statements. And no

433
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 2: one I could see it.

434
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:45,680
Speaker 1: I had to talk myself out and not driving into

435
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 1: a tree wow on the way home. It was hands

436
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:54,720
Speaker 1: down one of the worst days of my life.

437
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 2: You have a family at this point, I have five

438
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,879
Speaker 2: five keys at this point, my god, And is your

439
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:05,199
Speaker 2: partner aware of what's going on?

440
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 1: He knew at times? You know, it's the invisible addiction.

441
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 1: You can't smell it on somebody's breath, you can't see

442
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:21,360
Speaker 1: it in the way that they walk. It's just something

443
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 1: that you think you've you've got a hold of, you know,

444
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 1: like you'll have these periods where you won't gamble and

445
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:34,120
Speaker 1: I can do this, but without unlocking that shame, and

446
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 1: that shame is put there, as you said, it's on

447
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 1: the label. Gambled responsibly.

448
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 2: It's your fault.

449
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 1: It's weaponized shame, and it's so despicable in the way that,

450
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 1: as I said, I it was after I almost took

451
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 1: my life that I arrived at Hold on a minute,

452
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 1: I actually used the machine exactly how it was designed.

453
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:04,480
Speaker 1: I didn't there was nothing wrong. I am the ideal customer,

454
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 1: not the exception to the rule. I am who they

455
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 1: hope walks in and sits down and plows twelve grand

456
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 1: to win ten, but walks out with none, Like, how

457
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 1: is that legal? How is that legal?

458
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 2: There's shame involved, but it's not on the end user.

459
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 2: It's on up until you're pushing that button from that

460
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 2: machine back. There's an entire, entire just ladder of accountability

461
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 2: of humans who have gone yes yes, yes, yes yes

462
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 2: yes yes yes yes yes yes. There is where the

463
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 2: shame belongs. Yes, not upon you sitting in that stool.

464
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 2: But that's the way that we have seen it, and

465
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 2: I think we're starting as a society understand that these

466
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 2: things are well beyond because we all I have the

467
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 2: experience of like I can't put my fucking phone down. Yes,

468
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 2: I can't put my phone down, or you can't put

469
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 2: your phone out, because the smartest psychologists in the world

470
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 2: and the most powerful algorithms ever have figured out exactly

471
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 2: how to keep you there as long as they need

472
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 2: to correct. And unless you put a physical barrier between

473
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 2: you and it, like literally putting it in another room,

474
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 2: you're going to be unable to not do it because

475
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 2: you are You are a biological organism that has needs

476
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 2: and wants form another sip of my tea for example,

477
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 2: Yes it's good, and you can't ever write it conditioning

478
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 2: you operately conditioned precisely when what does treatment look like?

479
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 2: I mean this is you can't As you mentioned, you

480
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 2: can't just stop. And as someone who's tried to stop

481
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 2: drinking a few times, I tried to stop a bunch

482
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 2: of times, couldn't do it by myself. It wasn't until

483
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 2: I realized, and it wasn't until I started working on

484
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 2: the reasons that I was doing it, that I was

485
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 2: able to stay not doing it. If I just tried

486
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 2: to stop doing it, I can only do that for

487
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 2: six weeks at a time. Maybe that was that, and

488
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 2: then I was banged uck to water back into it.

489
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 2: It wasn'tuntil I started to work on the reasons, like

490
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 2: it is avoided behavior. Looking at what the addiction is

491
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 2: a response to is kind of where you have to start,

492
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 2: isn't it Definitely?

493
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 1: But you have to help liberate a person from shame.

494
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 1: That's not theirs, And that's where you know, sometimes when

495
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 1: people access services like the therapists will be like digging

496
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 1: away trying to find some trauma. You know, if you

497
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 1: look hard enough, you'll find trauma in everybody's life. But

498
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 1: gambling harm is a unique addiction as far as the

499
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 1: experience of gambling can create trauma that you know, I

500
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 1: think is unique in this space. When you are absolutely

501
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 1: blindsided by an engagement with a product that you perceived

502
00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 1: as harm less. You know, like if I walked up

503
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 1: to you and said you're going to have to do

504
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 1: that bag of coke or you know, you would know

505
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 1: that that is going to cause you harm. But if

506
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 1: something's like this is just this is just a plaything,

507
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 1: This is just a toy. This is just fun.

508
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 2: Games for growing up.

509
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 1: Yes, then you don't see it as the threat that

510
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 1: it is to your well being. So that's really key

511
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 1: to unlocking that and putting shame where it belongs, as

512
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 1: you said, on the creators of these products and those

513
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 1: in positions of power who have not only just enabled it,

514
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 1: but they've facilitated the growth of this industry. Up until

515
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 1: last year, the industry could claim tax payer money to

516
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 1: do research and development on new ways of exploiting people.

517
00:32:56,520 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 2: Fantastic, How that's lobbying. How fantastic, that's a lobby that's

518
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 2: a win. That's a lobbying win. Let's go, let's go

519
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 2: have a n and ninety eight dollars lunch. Yep, that's

520
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 2: bloody good.

521
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just so wild. I didn't understand any

522
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 1: of this. Of course when I'm experiencing it, I'm just thinking, well,

523
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 1: it's me, it's me. I'm absolutely screwed.

524
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 2: And the thing that people so let's just take a

525
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 2: step back onto it. When you were trying to stop

526
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 2: by yourself before you got treatment. A lot of people

527
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 2: don't understand about addiction that the addict knows how bad

528
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,400
Speaker 2: it is. The addict is well aware of how much

529
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 2: damage they're causing. It is, however, the best option they've got,

530
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:45,720
Speaker 2: because if they don't do it, the pain and discomfort

531
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 2: is just catastrophic. What were the days like when you

532
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 2: were white knuckling, when you were trying to stop without

533
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 2: any help?

534
00:33:52,760 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 1: Yet it was so many meally overwhelming. I was either

535
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 1: stressed out about how I'm going to pay bills or

536
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:15,400
Speaker 1: just absolutely guilt ridden about what had happened. The first

537
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 1: time I called Lifeline in two thousand and three, I

538
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 1: got told, just don't wear shoes. If you don't wear shoes,

539
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 1: you won't be able to get into a venue, so

540
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:28,360
Speaker 1: you won't be able to gamble. And I was like, what, look.

541
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,319
Speaker 2: I like what they're talking about. At least it's an end.

542
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:33,920
Speaker 1: And I said, if I was addicted to drugs, there

543
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 1: would be a rehab, Like why where can I go?

544
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:42,799
Speaker 1: I need a rehab? That's I just could recognize that

545
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 1: I needed to not be in that environment anymore. I

546
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 1: needed to be surrounded by support. And they go, oh, no,

547
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 1: there's no rehabs for gambling.

548
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:54,840
Speaker 2: That's not true.

549
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 1: And if there was, they'd be for men. That's what

550
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:01,759
Speaker 1: I was told in two thousand and three.

551
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 2: Well, I doubt that was true at the time. I'm

552
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 2: sorry you got told that, because I know there's rehabits

553
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 2: around longer than that, but it was not very well known,

554
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,239
Speaker 2: so they were probably operating on the best knowledge they had.

555
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:18,839
Speaker 1: I was horrified, horrified, And to this day there isn't

556
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 1: a residential rehab in Canberra for gambling.

557
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 2: Fuck mete, that is so gnarly, that is so so gnarly.

558
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 1: So here we are and I'm calling in New South

559
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:38,760
Speaker 1: Wales at that time in two thousand and three, nothing,

560
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 1: no rehab, nothing.

561
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 2: Oh man.

562
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 1: And then when I did, years later reach out for

563
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:47,959
Speaker 1: help a second time, they had a face to face

564
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:49,800
Speaker 1: counselor opposite a club.

565
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 2: Look, I understand that the probably the best sobriety meeting

566
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 2: that I went to ever that got me really really

567
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:00,839
Speaker 2: sober was in a bar the middle of the day

568
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,240
Speaker 2: and it was actually pretty good. It was actually really

569
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 2: really good, to be honest. But the bar wasn't open upstairs.

570
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 2: The downstairs one was, so you'd have to walk through

571
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 2: an open bar to get to this meeting. It was

572
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 2: actually it was actually a good exercise. But the opposite

573
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:21,840
Speaker 2: across the road from a When you say club, you

574
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:23,719
Speaker 2: mean you're talking like a league's club, which would ever

575
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:25,840
Speaker 2: really had in Brisbane. It's a place that has a

576
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 2: license to sell booze and also run these machines. Yes,

577
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:33,399
Speaker 2: and like in the hundreds. Yeah, this is why when

578
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 2: you see player salaries for footballers they are in the multimillions,

579
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:43,239
Speaker 2: because I love football, I really do. And the money

580
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 2: that they get paid is probably gambling profits.

581
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, but so sit. There is another way of

582
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:57,319
Speaker 1: doing it, and there are other advertisers that could fill

583
00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:59,799
Speaker 1: in the gap. But what they don't want to give

584
00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:02,400
Speaker 1: up is the fact that they actually get a cut

585
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 1: of how much people lose on games as well. Like,

586
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:11,319
Speaker 1: that's so despicable and predatory that you're willing to, like

587
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 1: just absolutely ignore the harm for the sake of your

588
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 1: bottom line.

589
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 2: What did it help eventually look like for you?

590
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 1: The morning after I almost took my life in twenty twelve,

591
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:34,799
Speaker 1: my husband drove me to see a new counselor and

592
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 1: I remember being in the car thinking I'll go and

593
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 1: see this counselor. I had no hope at that point

594
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 1: left in me. The only reason I'm talking to you

595
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 1: right now was I was pregnant with our six child,

596
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:54,919
Speaker 1: and I couldn't figure out how to take my life

597
00:37:55,000 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 1: and not harm her. And so my plan was go

598
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 1: to to counseling until the baby's born, and then all

599
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 1: check out.

600
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:08,799
Speaker 2: Back at it, Yeah, get back at it. And what

601
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:12,920
Speaker 2: was it that? I mean, that's a I can understand

602
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 2: that because it was when I met Audrey and Georgia.

603
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 2: I now had a different reason to do the work.

604
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:22,360
Speaker 2: And I think the other five kids weren't a great reason.

605
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:26,960
Speaker 2: You know, they're a great reason, but it's an opportunity

606
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 2: to have a slightly fresher look at what's happening here.

607
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 2: What was it?

608
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 1: It wasn't that I didn't It was that I didn't

609
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:42,279
Speaker 1: feel worthy of them. I had convinced myself that they'd

610
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 1: be better off without me.

611
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 2: Oh man. And that's the you know, we talk about

612
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 2: the gambler's fallacy, which is what you were stuck in

613
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,320
Speaker 2: chasing that ten thousand, But that's the other great fallacy

614
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:53,919
Speaker 2: that our brain tricks on us when we're in those

615
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:56,760
Speaker 2: really dark moments. I've been there. I was like, everyone

616
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 2: will be better off, but that's actually not true at all.

617
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 2: You think about it, think about the funerals you've been

618
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:07,279
Speaker 2: to everyone's fucked. It's terrible. No, they're not better off

619
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 2: with that too, it's really bad. And then they play

620
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:12,520
Speaker 2: the Jeff Buckley song and it gets really sad. It's horrible,

621
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 2: It's terrible.

622
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:18,880
Speaker 1: That's why I fight so hard for people who have

623
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:23,319
Speaker 1: still stuck there, because too many people in Australia are

624
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 1: losing their lives. This is unparalleled public health crisis that

625
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:38,840
Speaker 1: we are willfully ignoring in favor of a few people

626
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 1: earning billions of dollars.

627
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 2: What was it about that rounder treatment that worked or

628
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:52,840
Speaker 2: started to work for you?

629
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 1: She said to me, what do you like about you?

630
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:00,719
Speaker 1: And boy did that hit me between the eyes at

631
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 1: that point. And I couldn't come up with an answer.

632
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:11,440
Speaker 1: And she said, come on, you need to tell me

633
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:14,600
Speaker 1: ten things. And I said, well, can I list my

634
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 1: children individually? You know, like there's half the list. She said, no,

635
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:24,279
Speaker 1: it has to be something that you like about you. Ah,

636
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:28,800
Speaker 1: And I was like radio. But that made me connect

637
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 1: to compliments that people had actually paid me that I'd

638
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:37,799
Speaker 1: never let you know in because I thought, yeah, but

639
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 1: if you really knew me, you wouldn't say that. So

640
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:45,640
Speaker 1: anytime somebody said, gee, you're a great mum, or you know,

641
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:49,560
Speaker 1: your husband's so lucky to have you, Or you're a

642
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 1: beautiful friend, you're very hospitable, you're you know, such a

643
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:58,360
Speaker 1: caring person, you're so generous. None of that I believed

644
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 1: was true of me. But I thought, maybe people do

645
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 1: know me. Maybe I just don't know me.

646
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:12,759
Speaker 2: That's the trick, isn't it. We have these ideas and

647
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 2: what we what we think of ourselves, but they're based

648
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:22,600
Speaker 2: on an incomplete set of information. As my friend Charlie

649
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 2: once said to me, he said, you don't understand. You've

650
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:27,560
Speaker 2: never been in a room before you walk into it.

651
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 2: You don't know what you don't know what effects you

652
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:34,840
Speaker 2: have on other people. So if it doesn't fit with

653
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 2: how you feel about yourself, you can write it all off.

654
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:39,800
Speaker 2: There's me talking all. If I feel about myself doesn't

655
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:41,799
Speaker 2: fit with what people are telling me, I can write

656
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:44,720
Speaker 2: it off as like all you're lying. I legitimately believe

657
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 2: that they gave me the Australian Idol job as a

658
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 2: favor I was. I had such low self esteemed crazy,

659
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:53,400
Speaker 2: low self esteem crazy. It took me years to go

660
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:56,760
Speaker 2: oh no, hang on. This is a multi multi million

661
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:58,920
Speaker 2: dollar television format and they're not going to roll the

662
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:04,799
Speaker 2: dice on it. Unknown factor. They gave it to me, well,

663
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:06,480
Speaker 2: one of the two jobs they gave to me because

664
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 2: I was the best option they had. Oh, don't forget that.

665
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 2: So whatever, the other brain shadow goes, oh yeah, but

666
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:14,360
Speaker 2: you repeat that in a second. I'm going to trust

667
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:19,040
Speaker 2: those people because they have shareholders at stake, so I'm

668
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:21,400
Speaker 2: going to trust them over me, and I'll just go

669
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:23,720
Speaker 2: with that for now. And that's when things started to shift.

670
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 2: It's when you start to go, I might just go

671
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:28,879
Speaker 2: with that idea for now because it's a bit better

672
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:29,600
Speaker 2: than one I've got.

673
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 1: Yes, And that's where like that phrase know thyself, you

674
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 1: know crept In and I googled it and I was like,

675
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 1: who said that? Where did that come from? And it

676
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 1: was Socrates and so great and he the one of

677
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 1: his quotes that I just love was people make themselves

678
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 1: appear ridiculous when they try to know obscure things before

679
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 1: they know themselves.

680
00:42:58,600 --> 00:42:59,240
Speaker 2: That's true.

681
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:02,080
Speaker 1: And I thought, oh my gosh, I have spent my

682
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 1: whole life learning all of these obscure things about the

683
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 1: world and neglected me right and didn't know anything about myself.

684
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:18,160
Speaker 1: But I also didn't know anything about the environment that

685
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:21,240
Speaker 1: I walked into as an eighteen year old, and that

686
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:22,759
Speaker 1: fired up curiosity.

687
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 2: Oh, once your dope mean system gets this regulator, that's

688
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:29,719
Speaker 2: the reward chemical. There's a fantastic book I've talked about

689
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 2: here before. It's called The Molecule of More. It's very

690
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 2: very clever book. Dopamine is basically anything that I can reach,

691
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 2: isn't dope mean anything that's out of my reach. Dope

692
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 2: means involved, Like if I want to go over and

693
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 2: adjust that monitor, dope mean it plays a role in

694
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:48,239
Speaker 2: me giving a shit enough to stand up and go

695
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:52,160
Speaker 2: over and do it, and that's it. We get rewarded

696
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 2: then with the you know, the Fieldberg chemicals after that,

697
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:57,359
Speaker 2: and then we go we go around write that once

698
00:43:57,360 --> 00:43:59,479
Speaker 2: a dope me system gets this regulated and you start

699
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:02,279
Speaker 2: wanting more and more and more of this thing, your

700
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 2: ability to actually make a rational choice no longer plays

701
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 2: a part. And that's I think what people don't really

702
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:13,280
Speaker 2: understand about addiction is that it's no, it's not rational.

703
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 2: It's not. But there has been a dysregulation in the

704
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:18,840
Speaker 2: way the neural pathways are wired up, and even the

705
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:25,560
Speaker 2: smartest person cannot outthink their way from it. What are

706
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:29,000
Speaker 2: the practical ways that you start to keep yourself safe

707
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:32,319
Speaker 2: when you're still on your training wheels of trying not

708
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:34,920
Speaker 2: to use again? Because I think about I'll give you

709
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:39,239
Speaker 2: an example. I got told. Well, so the first thing

710
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:41,640
Speaker 2: that happens is, well, I can't go out with those

711
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:43,440
Speaker 2: guys anymore because those guys are really only in my

712
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:46,399
Speaker 2: life to drink and use. So I won't call those

713
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 2: people who also have in my life. So, oh, that's right,

714
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:51,919
Speaker 2: nobody gives My life has just become okay. Right, Well

715
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 2: now I'm a bit lonely. I'm sober and lonely. I'm boring. Ah,

716
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 2: it's a bit sad, It's okay. So I went to

717
00:44:57,600 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 2: these meetings. I knew people to talk to, people that

718
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:03,520
Speaker 2: align with me, and there's nice new bank, new social scene, lovely,

719
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:07,320
Speaker 2: So that was number one. Things like meeting somebody for brunch,

720
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:10,799
Speaker 2: all right, sometimes people will cave a glass or to

721
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:12,960
Speaker 2: a brunch, but then I can just go Yeah, I

722
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 2: never meet anyone for dinner, and if I still do

723
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 2: it to this day. When I check it out hotel,

724
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 2: I'm nearly sixteen years I make sure they get the

725
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:22,440
Speaker 2: mini bar out of the room. And so these are

726
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:25,759
Speaker 2: small things that I use use, these small things that

727
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 2: I do in place, I put in place just to

728
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 2: just just kind of bolster up, you know, make things

729
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 2: a little safer. Not that I'm not going to start

730
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 2: to drink or use again, I'm not, but it's it's

731
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:44,239
Speaker 2: just less cognitive load. I don't have to think about it.

732
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 1: It's being intentional.

733
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:48,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. What are the things that when you're

734
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 2: first starting to avoid those places you went to and

735
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:57,240
Speaker 2: things that they tell gambling addicts to to put around

736
00:45:57,239 --> 00:45:58,560
Speaker 2: themselves to keep themselves a bit safer?

737
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:04,360
Speaker 1: Well, I call them people experiencing gambling harm, not a

738
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:09,319
Speaker 1: gambling addicts, but I feel that that's a game just

739
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 1: giving the industry a free kick. You know, they gambling,

740
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:17,600
Speaker 1: They created the addiction. It's addiction by design.

741
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 2: This is true. Nobody you know, that's an interesting people. Okay,

742
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 2: so what is it the people experiencing gambling harm like yourself? Yes,

743
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:28,359
Speaker 2: what are things they put in place to keep themselves safe?

744
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 1: In the early days, it's really important that there is

745
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:38,520
Speaker 1: free financial counseling, you know, so just getting somebody to

746
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:45,800
Speaker 1: help support you financially navigate that world. That's become very disregulated,

747
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 1: and they do that, as I said, for free, for

748
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 1: as long as you need. And they can really step

749
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 1: in as advocates for you to you know, negotiate debt

750
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 1: settlements or you know, just make that less overwhelming.

751
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:01,840
Speaker 2: At this point, I'm pretty sure what you're doing is

752
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:03,400
Speaker 2: the way that I used to do is kind of stuff,

753
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:06,200
Speaker 2: which is, go from the letterbox to the recycling bin. See,

754
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:08,799
Speaker 2: I don't need to worry about these unpaid bills if

755
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:10,600
Speaker 2: I just put them straight in the blue bin. Yes,

756
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:14,520
Speaker 2: that's fine. Yeah, eventually a bloke turns up. That's when

757
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:18,680
Speaker 2: it gets tricky. Correct, But that's literally what I would do.

758
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:27,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, So they are just absolute angels and a

759
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:31,600
Speaker 1: really vital part of support. The way I describe it

760
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 1: to people is if you broke your arm, no one

761
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:37,440
Speaker 1: would expect that your arm would heal all by itself.

762
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:40,760
Speaker 1: You would go into a hospital, they would put plaster

763
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:43,759
Speaker 1: around it, and you would need to be supported for

764
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 1: a period of time. So you have to think about

765
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:57,120
Speaker 1: it like that and using intentional tools like the way

766
00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:01,160
Speaker 1: the industry frames self exclusion is you are the problem.

767
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:05,400
Speaker 1: You can't control yourself in this environment. You need to

768
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:09,520
Speaker 1: be excluded. And that is basically how they you know,

769
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:14,720
Speaker 1: put that like kind of final nail in the coffin

770
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:17,200
Speaker 1: for people to make them feel like they are now

771
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:21,440
Speaker 1: socially excluded from a place where often they're being treated

772
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:25,440
Speaker 1: like a VIP up until they ran out of money.

773
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:33,760
Speaker 1: And so I frame self exclusion as an empowered choice

774
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:38,000
Speaker 1: that you are taking to protect your well being, not

775
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:43,440
Speaker 1: you can't go there anymore, Like no, you need to

776
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:48,360
Speaker 1: recognize that this is an unsafe environment period, not just

777
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:54,520
Speaker 1: for you, for everybody, you know, Like, it isn't okay

778
00:48:54,239 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 1: that we've allowed these places to be you know, mega casinos.

779
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:01,400
Speaker 2: What was someone who wat say, Oh, it's you know,

780
00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:04,160
Speaker 2: Grandma's birthday, were taking down to Sharky's.

781
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like.

782
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:07,680
Speaker 2: I'm not going to be there.

783
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:12,279
Speaker 1: Yeah it's okay, I'll catch with grandma later. Yeah, you know,

784
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:18,359
Speaker 1: it's not You're making an empowered choice, not one from

785
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:21,640
Speaker 1: a place of you know, there's something wrong with you.

786
00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:25,719
Speaker 1: Just like if you discovered your gluten intolerant, you don't

787
00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:28,080
Speaker 1: you just go, Okay, I'm going to decide not to

788
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:32,440
Speaker 1: have gluten anymore because it doesn't do anything positive for

789
00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:33,359
Speaker 1: my body.

790
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 2: I still I'm Cellia. I still miss our like I

791
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:38,560
Speaker 2: really do, but I'm not going to eat because I

792
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:39,239
Speaker 2: want stomach cancer.

793
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:43,840
Speaker 1: Correct, Yeah, like you're making an empowered choice.

794
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:47,360
Speaker 2: What about the And this was the thing that was

795
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 2: a bit difficult for me to deal with. When I

796
00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:53,480
Speaker 2: first started getting healthy, I was experienced. I went through

797
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:59,879
Speaker 2: some periods of hypermatic states. There's a period of what's

798
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:05,520
Speaker 2: called herdonic recall where you remember, Ah, that awesome man,

799
00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:10,360
Speaker 2: that was amazing that you never forget how and for

800
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:12,600
Speaker 2: anybody that's had gastro on a trip to Thailand or

801
00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:15,759
Speaker 2: lost the luggage or whatever, they will forget all of that.

802
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 2: They just tell you about that sunset that they saw, Yes,

803
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:20,719
Speaker 2: and it was unbelievable at the temple, it was incredible.

804
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:22,759
Speaker 2: They won't tell you that they know shout through the

805
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:24,560
Speaker 2: eye of a needle and never saw the outside of

806
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:28,240
Speaker 2: the hotel in four straight days. Right, It's called hordonic recall.

807
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:31,960
Speaker 2: So yeah, and the world, because it wasn't that abnormal

808
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 2: super super high, started to feel a bit boring. But

809
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:38,080
Speaker 2: I struggled with that. But I had to remind myself

810
00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:42,080
Speaker 2: that's completely unsustainable. And when I'm in those states, I

811
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:44,360
Speaker 2: say and do things that are dangerous for me and

812
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:47,000
Speaker 2: people around me, and I can't allow myself to get

813
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:48,680
Speaker 2: a bout that. Yes, it's exciting, but so I was

814
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:51,759
Speaker 2: driving one hundred and eighty through a school line right,

815
00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:54,920
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.

816
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:01,520
Speaker 1: Absolutely, your brain will always try and you know, go

817
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:06,399
Speaker 1: back to that pathway because it's you know, been reinforced

818
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:10,279
Speaker 1: often for decades with gambling harm because it's invisible and

819
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:16,719
Speaker 1: no one knows, but it does. The way I frame

820
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:19,680
Speaker 1: it for people is it doesn't matter how long, how

821
00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:22,000
Speaker 1: much time and space you have away from it. This

822
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:25,799
Speaker 1: machine is built to addict you. It's going to have

823
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 1: the same outcome. And it's not that you're broken, it's

824
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:34,759
Speaker 1: that it will do exactly what it's been designed to do.

825
00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 1: And unfortunately, with people experiencing like betting like online, they'll

826
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:46,640
Speaker 1: get calls from VP managers offering you know, incentives to

827
00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:51,319
Speaker 1: come back. Even if you self exclude online, they'll they'll go, hey,

828
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:54,919
Speaker 1: we haven't seen you in a while, how about you,

829
00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:59,360
Speaker 1: you know, reactivate your account like they are predators period.

830
00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:04,520
Speaker 2: That is so nuh so, what does life begin to

831
00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:07,879
Speaker 2: look like once you get you know, you've got six

832
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:10,960
Speaker 2: kids boy this stage, and I'm guessing now hours of

833
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:13,480
Speaker 2: your day back, what does life start to look like?

834
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:19,840
Speaker 1: Well, I wasn't ever expecting to be an advocate. I

835
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:25,279
Speaker 1: promise you that. It just sort of happened. I was

836
00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:29,680
Speaker 1: going along to a smart Recovery meeting on a Monday night.

837
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:32,400
Speaker 2: Which is AA without the God part. Yeah yep.

838
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:38,600
Speaker 1: And then they with the service provider got switched out

839
00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:41,880
Speaker 1: for another and I was furious. I was like, what

840
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:46,399
Speaker 1: the fuck, Like, you don't even respect our continuity of care,

841
00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 1: Like you haven't even stopped the landscape from happening, and

842
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:54,160
Speaker 1: you just think our care is interchangeable. And it just

843
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 1: fired me up, like to just recognize how broken this

844
00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:02,880
Speaker 1: actual system is. And then there was this opportunity to

845
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:07,440
Speaker 1: be trained to be a lived experience speaker, and that

846
00:53:07,480 --> 00:53:10,200
Speaker 1: felt like the most empowering thing for me to do.

847
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:13,360
Speaker 1: At that point, I had almost let shame put me

848
00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:17,400
Speaker 1: in the ground, and I thought, nah, I'm going to

849
00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:21,600
Speaker 1: completely be okay with the fact that people know that

850
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:24,840
Speaker 1: I struggled with gambling, because if it happened to me,

851
00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:31,439
Speaker 1: it was happening to others and enough's enough. And that

852
00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:35,120
Speaker 1: was just this beginning of I trained to take over

853
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:38,760
Speaker 1: that group. Then every Monday night I'm sitting there waiting

854
00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:41,560
Speaker 1: for people whose lives had already imploded to walk through

855
00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:44,399
Speaker 1: the door, and I thought, nah, I gotta go back

856
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:46,680
Speaker 1: upstream and try and stop it from happening.

857
00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:49,480
Speaker 2: How do you talk to your kids about the way

858
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:51,360
Speaker 2: mum was then and the way mom is now.

859
00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:59,680
Speaker 1: With honesty and transparency. You know, I have apologized for

860
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:06,319
Speaker 1: the way that I wasn't able to show up as

861
00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:09,480
Speaker 1: the mum that I wanted to be in those moments

862
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:14,880
Speaker 1: of being so overwhelmed and so stressed out about money

863
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:22,560
Speaker 1: and what I'd done. But I knew if I stayed

864
00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:27,000
Speaker 1: in that place of hating myself, it would never bring

865
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:32,600
Speaker 1: about positive outcomes for their life. And so you know,

866
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:38,120
Speaker 1: I said, I'm going to try and forgive myself. Is

867
00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:42,560
Speaker 1: that something that we can move forward with as a family?

868
00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:46,480
Speaker 1: And they were like, of course, like they didn't even

869
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:50,400
Speaker 1: they weren't aware really, other than my husband and I

870
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:53,880
Speaker 1: fighting about money from time to time, they didn't know

871
00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:58,160
Speaker 1: what I was dealing with until after I went public

872
00:54:58,200 --> 00:54:58,560
Speaker 1: with it.

873
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:03,719
Speaker 2: The addiction, like we mentioned before, is an avoidant behavior,

874
00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:09,080
Speaker 2: and it's something that can show up when there's something

875
00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:12,600
Speaker 2: else going on that's too hard to deal with. Did

876
00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:15,600
Speaker 2: you ever? Did you When did you start to work

877
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:18,040
Speaker 2: on the thing that was getting that was the like?

878
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:21,919
Speaker 2: When did you start to work on the like? I said,

879
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:25,280
Speaker 2: I was only able to keep sober once I started

880
00:55:25,280 --> 00:55:27,440
Speaker 2: to work on the things, the reasons that I was

881
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:30,480
Speaker 2: drinking what I was drinking away. Then I was able

882
00:55:30,520 --> 00:55:33,960
Speaker 2: to stay sober once I sorted those things out. And

883
00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:35,960
Speaker 2: I don't worry. It's not lifelong thing. I keep sorting

884
00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:40,080
Speaker 2: them as I which is nice. When did you start

885
00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:43,120
Speaker 2: to understand that this is a reaction to something. My

886
00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:47,720
Speaker 2: addiction is reaction to something. If it was in yours

887
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:49,959
Speaker 2: case it was poke machines, it could have been something else.

888
00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:54,120
Speaker 2: What was life like when you started to work on that.

889
00:55:55,760 --> 00:56:00,120
Speaker 1: The reaction it was to self loathing and shame.

890
00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:05,120
Speaker 2: And understand that existed before the gambling.

891
00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:08,040
Speaker 1: That existed because of the gambling.

892
00:56:08,080 --> 00:56:10,080
Speaker 2: Oh wow, that like.

893
00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:14,960
Speaker 1: I had spent over a decade wishing I could go

894
00:56:15,080 --> 00:56:18,000
Speaker 1: back to eighteen year old me and never have walked

895
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:21,440
Speaker 1: into a club. And I couldn't. I couldn't do that,

896
00:56:22,520 --> 00:56:27,040
Speaker 1: and I hated every moment since because of how it

897
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:31,680
Speaker 1: made me hate myself, of the lack of control I

898
00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:37,040
Speaker 1: felt in that environment, that that's as I said, like,

899
00:56:37,440 --> 00:56:42,120
Speaker 1: this is unique to this addiction because it's it wasn't

900
00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:46,520
Speaker 1: driven like I spent so long trying to think what

901
00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:50,839
Speaker 1: is what is driving me? And it was actually this

902
00:56:52,040 --> 00:56:54,640
Speaker 1: feeling like I wanted to go back and to have

903
00:56:54,800 --> 00:57:00,560
Speaker 1: never ever gambled, and I couldn't change that. And I

904
00:57:00,600 --> 00:57:06,160
Speaker 1: thought that I'd dis counted, like my ability to ever

905
00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:10,000
Speaker 1: live a normal life, Like I thought that that pathway's

906
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:12,600
Speaker 1: gone now. I burnt that years ago.

907
00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:16,800
Speaker 2: So the cycle looks like I've you know, done a

908
00:57:16,800 --> 00:57:19,800
Speaker 2: couple of grand I feel terrible that I've done a

909
00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:22,800
Speaker 2: couple of grand This is awful. I hate myself. I

910
00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:25,840
Speaker 2: can't stand this. I'm a horrible piece of shit. This

911
00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:30,640
Speaker 2: I hate. I need some relief from this horrible feeling.

912
00:57:31,080 --> 00:57:31,840
Speaker 2: I know what I'll do.

913
00:57:32,040 --> 00:57:34,000
Speaker 1: Remember that time you pushed the button and you won

914
00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:36,640
Speaker 1: this much, That can happen again.

915
00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:41,440
Speaker 2: That can happen, Amy bang ah relief. But from the

916
00:57:41,520 --> 00:57:43,959
Speaker 2: moment after that first lap, it's back.

917
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:44,520
Speaker 1: Yes.

918
00:57:45,160 --> 00:57:47,480
Speaker 2: And it's the same with alcohol and any other drinking

919
00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:49,480
Speaker 2: or any other using it's the same.

920
00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:55,280
Speaker 1: That with gambling. It represents hope.

921
00:57:55,640 --> 00:57:57,720
Speaker 2: Oh don't get me wrong, Everything's always going to be better.

922
00:57:57,720 --> 00:57:59,440
Speaker 2: Once I start having a beer, Yes, I love a

923
00:57:59,640 --> 00:58:01,320
Speaker 2: things go so much better one to have this beer,

924
00:58:02,240 --> 00:58:04,919
Speaker 2: all right, and that first sip, man, everything starts getting

925
00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:07,880
Speaker 2: better straight away and they're within a matter of hours.

926
00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:10,160
Speaker 2: Everything is terrible, probably more terrible than it was before

927
00:58:10,160 --> 00:58:13,000
Speaker 2: you open the first one. It, you know, and it

928
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:16,600
Speaker 2: would often says that, like the best way to get

929
00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:19,280
Speaker 2: rid of the terrible feelings of all that drinking and

930
00:58:19,360 --> 00:58:24,520
Speaker 2: using is more drinking and using. That's it. But that's it.

931
00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:30,280
Speaker 2: It's it creates its own cycle, yeah, which is is reprehensible.

932
00:58:31,720 --> 00:58:33,920
Speaker 2: What what needs to happen?

933
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:37,600
Speaker 1: I mean, but you add that layer then of like

934
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:42,080
Speaker 1: nobody's like the bottlow isn't coming and knocking on your door.

935
00:58:42,160 --> 00:58:43,800
Speaker 2: That's the thing. Well, Jimmy does bring.

936
00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:49,000
Speaker 1: They do deliver, but they don't come for you and

937
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:50,120
Speaker 1: tap on that, you know.

938
00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:52,680
Speaker 2: And this is a thing like with a drug lock alcohol,

939
00:58:53,360 --> 00:58:55,680
Speaker 2: there is a there is a certain dosage which will

940
00:58:55,760 --> 00:58:59,480
Speaker 2: kill you. All right. I can walk down the street

941
00:58:59,480 --> 00:59:01,880
Speaker 2: to the bottle and for less than twenty bucks, I

942
00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:04,200
Speaker 2: could buy enough alcohol to kill me. And I'm an

943
00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:08,200
Speaker 2: eighty kilogram man. For twenty dollars, I can I will

944
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:10,800
Speaker 2: like an overdose all right, but you can't test a

945
00:59:10,840 --> 00:59:16,240
Speaker 2: pillo at a festival. Yet with something like mobile app gaming,

946
00:59:17,120 --> 00:59:21,120
Speaker 2: you can within less than forty five minutes do your

947
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:25,520
Speaker 2: entire net worth at two in the morning, with nobody

948
00:59:25,560 --> 00:59:29,440
Speaker 2: going hey, bro, you okay? Yeah, And that is so

949
00:59:29,640 --> 00:59:34,480
Speaker 2: terrifying for someone who doesn't realize what a pun intended

950
00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:35,160
Speaker 2: is at stake.

951
00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:38,919
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. I spoke to a guy the other day

952
00:59:38,960 --> 00:59:43,960
Speaker 1: who talks about it publicly, and he he still hadn't

953
00:59:44,080 --> 00:59:49,040
Speaker 1: joined the dots about how he was actually being groomed.

954
00:59:49,120 --> 00:59:53,200
Speaker 1: In his addiction. He'd taken on this, you know, personal

955
00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:57,120
Speaker 1: responsibility mantra of you know, I did this, I did this,

956
00:59:57,200 --> 01:00:01,000
Speaker 1: I did this, And I was like, yeah, when when

957
01:00:01,040 --> 01:00:04,720
Speaker 1: you're in it, were you getting calls from a VP manager?

958
01:00:05,080 --> 01:00:09,240
Speaker 1: And he goes yeah, And I was like okay. And

959
01:00:09,280 --> 01:00:12,880
Speaker 1: then when you did have breaks and you pulled back,

960
01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:16,560
Speaker 1: what happened? He goes, yeah, Actually I was getting texts

961
01:00:17,600 --> 01:00:22,360
Speaker 1: and getting offered bets, and I'm like, so, even though

962
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:28,600
Speaker 1: you were trying to be responsible, you were getting preyed upon.

963
01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:32,200
Speaker 1: And he was just like, oh my gosh. I hadn't

964
01:00:32,760 --> 01:00:37,480
Speaker 1: ever realized that because you're so conditioned to in this

965
01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:44,000
Speaker 1: personal responsibility model that, as I said, takes people to

966
01:00:44,080 --> 01:00:48,560
Speaker 1: their grave, and that's their intention. They use people to extinction.

967
01:00:50,440 --> 01:00:52,920
Speaker 2: Oh I knew a guy that worked at one of

968
01:00:52,960 --> 01:00:54,520
Speaker 2: the apps. I won't say the name of the app.

969
01:00:55,160 --> 01:00:57,960
Speaker 2: Well I knew him, and I said, so I was

970
01:00:58,000 --> 01:00:59,280
Speaker 2: on in front of he goes, Oh I'd use it.

971
01:00:59,280 --> 01:01:03,160
Speaker 2: No way, I never use it all right, So even

972
01:01:03,200 --> 01:01:05,840
Speaker 2: the people that work there, it's like that you know

973
01:01:05,920 --> 01:01:10,160
Speaker 2: documentary also about the Instagram and Mata and all that. Yeah,

974
01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:13,560
Speaker 2: my kids touch it. No, even the people who work

975
01:01:13,640 --> 01:01:16,360
Speaker 2: are like, no way, I'm not touching it exactly.

976
01:01:16,640 --> 01:01:19,440
Speaker 1: That's like all the club bosses wouldn't have their family

977
01:01:19,480 --> 01:01:22,520
Speaker 1: and their love nor money, you know. Like that's the

978
01:01:22,600 --> 01:01:26,600
Speaker 1: reality is they know what they're doing and they do

979
01:01:26,680 --> 01:01:27,640
Speaker 1: it intentionally.

980
01:01:28,120 --> 01:01:30,520
Speaker 2: We're talking billions of dollars. And if there's one thing

981
01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:34,880
Speaker 2: we know about power in our democracy is that when

982
01:01:34,920 --> 01:01:38,200
Speaker 2: power and money collide, it's very difficult to change the

983
01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:43,280
Speaker 2: rules because billions of dollars is billions of dollars no

984
01:01:43,320 --> 01:01:45,720
Speaker 2: matter which way you slice it, people are going to

985
01:01:45,760 --> 01:01:49,640
Speaker 2: be reluctant to give up their free cash fountain. So

986
01:01:49,720 --> 01:01:52,920
Speaker 2: what has to change in our country? What does it

987
01:01:53,000 --> 01:01:56,040
Speaker 2: need to start. I mean, I know no gambling anywhere

988
01:01:57,400 --> 01:01:59,600
Speaker 2: that could happen, but I don't know how if we

989
01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:03,320
Speaker 2: have to be realistic, what what is it? What is

990
01:02:03,560 --> 01:02:05,439
Speaker 2: what is a change that people might go, oh, that's

991
01:02:06,200 --> 01:02:08,520
Speaker 2: way too much, but you think is like probably a

992
01:02:08,560 --> 01:02:09,880
Speaker 2: feasible first step.

993
01:02:10,440 --> 01:02:15,080
Speaker 1: I've been in gambling reform for a decade. I've not

994
01:02:15,200 --> 01:02:23,240
Speaker 1: been in gambling prohibition. Like that's that's not something you know.

995
01:02:23,520 --> 01:02:27,920
Speaker 1: All we're asking for is for it to be reasonable,

996
01:02:28,480 --> 01:02:33,440
Speaker 1: and there isn't any appetite for it because the industry

997
01:02:33,480 --> 01:02:37,000
Speaker 1: is always at the table. You know, we didn't sit

998
01:02:37,120 --> 01:02:39,800
Speaker 1: down with big Tobacco and go, so we're going to

999
01:02:40,440 --> 01:02:43,600
Speaker 1: actually stop smoking in public places because it's a public

1000
01:02:43,640 --> 01:02:47,120
Speaker 1: health crisis. What do you think about that? But that's

1001
01:02:47,160 --> 01:02:49,720
Speaker 1: what we do in gambling. Guess what they're there at

1002
01:02:49,720 --> 01:02:55,720
Speaker 1: the table going, look, you know, no, we couldn't be

1003
01:02:55,800 --> 01:03:02,080
Speaker 1: sustainable if and it's like, oh, they're claiming hardship. They

1004
01:03:02,160 --> 01:03:06,240
Speaker 1: claim hardship. That's why they're allowed to open till two

1005
01:03:06,360 --> 01:03:10,920
Speaker 1: three am in the morning. They've claimed hardship. Amazing, what

1006
01:03:10,960 --> 01:03:12,280
Speaker 1: would they know about hardship?

1007
01:03:12,520 --> 01:03:16,200
Speaker 2: So what do you think what needs to what's the

1008
01:03:16,200 --> 01:03:17,960
Speaker 2: first steps we need to take here.

1009
01:03:19,160 --> 01:03:23,080
Speaker 1: That's why, you know, get on and leave your story,

1010
01:03:23,360 --> 01:03:27,600
Speaker 1: your lived experience on the change dot org petition lost

1011
01:03:27,640 --> 01:03:29,000
Speaker 1: limits not lost lives.

1012
01:03:29,360 --> 01:03:31,920
Speaker 2: And he told me about what a lost limit is.

1013
01:03:33,160 --> 01:03:36,160
Speaker 1: We're putting forward the public health model that was put forward.

1014
01:03:36,160 --> 01:03:40,880
Speaker 1: It was almost got stood up in Tasmania. It's just

1015
01:03:40,960 --> 01:03:45,360
Speaker 1: been shelved at the moment, not destroyed. But one hundred

1016
01:03:45,400 --> 01:03:49,360
Speaker 1: dollars a day, five hundred a month, five thousand a

1017
01:03:49,440 --> 01:03:54,240
Speaker 1: year is what public health experts agree is a reasonable

1018
01:03:55,880 --> 01:03:59,440
Speaker 1: parameters to build on poke machines. When as I said

1019
01:03:59,720 --> 01:04:01,840
Speaker 1: right now, you can lose six thousand dollars in a

1020
01:04:01,880 --> 01:04:02,760
Speaker 1: half an hour.

1021
01:04:02,880 --> 01:04:05,439
Speaker 2: So a loss them it means that. And I'm guessing

1022
01:04:05,560 --> 01:04:07,120
Speaker 2: this s means you can't put cash in it anymore.

1023
01:04:07,800 --> 01:04:09,880
Speaker 2: So it would be a card of some description. Yes,

1024
01:04:10,280 --> 01:04:14,600
Speaker 2: and that's linked to you and in your pop and

1025
01:04:14,680 --> 01:04:17,640
Speaker 2: slapstaps happening, that's your hundred for the day. No matter

1026
01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:19,880
Speaker 2: where you go in the state. You will not then

1027
01:04:19,960 --> 01:04:22,080
Speaker 2: be able to play. Sorry, you will not be able

1028
01:04:22,080 --> 01:04:26,959
Speaker 2: to use again. Yes, And how much was it a month?

1029
01:04:27,560 --> 01:04:30,960
Speaker 2: Five hundred a month? Ye? Okay, So if you go

1030
01:04:31,080 --> 01:04:33,760
Speaker 2: back that week and then you're blowing it. So for

1031
01:04:33,800 --> 01:04:37,080
Speaker 2: three weeks you can't go back, and then five thousand

1032
01:04:37,120 --> 01:04:41,760
Speaker 2: a year. That's a lot of money. Five thousand is

1033
01:04:41,800 --> 01:04:44,400
Speaker 2: a lot of money. But if you say you could

1034
01:04:44,400 --> 01:04:46,240
Speaker 2: do you know, six and a half an hour, they're

1035
01:04:46,400 --> 01:04:49,120
Speaker 2: probably not a lot. And so that's not saying don't

1036
01:04:49,120 --> 01:04:52,400
Speaker 2: have a punt. There's just Pokey's. This is not even

1037
01:04:52,400 --> 01:04:57,000
Speaker 2: talking about taking multis of Singapore and badminton or anything

1038
01:04:57,080 --> 01:04:59,360
Speaker 2: like that. Yeah, that's just a start.

1039
01:05:00,840 --> 01:05:05,520
Speaker 1: It needs national regulation. You know, I wish this was

1040
01:05:05,600 --> 01:05:08,600
Speaker 1: just one product in one environment, but it's not. It's

1041
01:05:09,360 --> 01:05:15,800
Speaker 1: multiple products across multiple environments. And the blurring of gaming

1042
01:05:15,840 --> 01:05:21,040
Speaker 1: and gambling, like pretty much every kid's app now has

1043
01:05:21,440 --> 01:05:25,840
Speaker 1: some level of gamblification, either overt or covert. It's the

1044
01:05:25,880 --> 01:05:31,680
Speaker 1: stuff I teach in schools, highlighting the grooming that is

1045
01:05:31,760 --> 01:05:36,680
Speaker 1: happening in children to point them towards being future users,

1046
01:05:37,960 --> 01:05:41,959
Speaker 1: you know, once they hit eighteen, and you know that's

1047
01:05:42,000 --> 01:05:45,080
Speaker 1: so called Australian right of passage to go have a

1048
01:05:45,160 --> 01:05:49,680
Speaker 1: drink and a slap. You know, it's like what culture

1049
01:05:49,880 --> 01:05:53,840
Speaker 1: have we been sold as a normal way of being?

1050
01:05:54,560 --> 01:05:59,480
Speaker 1: And that's something you know, I think deserves a little attention.

1051
01:05:59,840 --> 01:06:01,640
Speaker 2: So that's a lost limits on poker machines, But what

1052
01:06:01,640 --> 01:06:04,160
Speaker 2: about mobile gaming? What about that sort of thing?

1053
01:06:04,240 --> 01:06:09,280
Speaker 1: Oh, this is something we've been arguing with AKMA. I mean,

1054
01:06:09,560 --> 01:06:19,640
Speaker 1: what's the Australian Media Communications Authority Australian Communications. Yes, correct,

1055
01:06:19,960 --> 01:06:23,760
Speaker 1: you put it in the right order. So that's the

1056
01:06:23,800 --> 01:06:30,920
Speaker 1: federal body that looks after is claiming to be policing

1057
01:06:31,080 --> 01:06:35,360
Speaker 1: the online gambling space. What that looks like is they

1058
01:06:35,400 --> 01:06:41,480
Speaker 1: play whack a mole with gambling companies that pop up here.

1059
01:06:41,680 --> 01:06:45,960
Speaker 1: Because we're open for business, we're already primed for addiction

1060
01:06:46,280 --> 01:06:49,080
Speaker 1: because of all the grooming that we've had, and so

1061
01:06:50,320 --> 01:06:52,680
Speaker 1: they'll get an alert from the customer saying I've just

1062
01:06:52,680 --> 01:06:59,040
Speaker 1: lost six hundred grand on this lotto Mania whatever it's called.

1063
01:06:59,680 --> 01:07:03,880
Speaker 1: They'll put a doo block and stop that site. Guess what,

1064
01:07:04,000 --> 01:07:08,120
Speaker 1: it pops up two seconds later, sends out an email

1065
01:07:08,160 --> 01:07:10,720
Speaker 1: to their customers, Oh, sorry for the inconvenience, here's your

1066
01:07:10,720 --> 01:07:16,640
Speaker 1: new login and some free credits. So that's basically the

1067
01:07:16,760 --> 01:07:18,440
Speaker 1: system we have in place at the moment.

1068
01:07:18,600 --> 01:07:20,560
Speaker 2: So what needs to happen there when it comes to.

1069
01:07:21,520 --> 01:07:27,400
Speaker 1: Looking at other countries that have actually blocked gambling online

1070
01:07:27,760 --> 01:07:30,520
Speaker 1: for their you know it can be done.

1071
01:07:30,800 --> 01:07:33,680
Speaker 2: There's just has anyone done it and then pulled it

1072
01:07:33,720 --> 01:07:35,240
Speaker 2: back because it feels like.

1073
01:07:36,520 --> 01:07:39,200
Speaker 1: America repealed their gambling laws.

1074
01:07:39,320 --> 01:07:40,880
Speaker 2: And then they put it back in no, no, no.

1075
01:07:41,480 --> 01:07:47,400
Speaker 1: That they're experiencing an absolute wave of gambling harm. That

1076
01:07:48,520 --> 01:07:52,040
Speaker 1: they made a decision in twenty eighteen to pull back

1077
01:07:52,160 --> 01:07:55,520
Speaker 1: on outlawing online gambling.

1078
01:07:55,160 --> 01:07:57,520
Speaker 2: Because they had they did outlaw online gambling. I remember

1079
01:07:57,520 --> 01:07:59,080
Speaker 2: it because this was the internet, Pokelon. I used to

1080
01:07:59,080 --> 01:08:01,040
Speaker 2: play it, and that I could have played any that

1081
01:08:01,120 --> 01:08:03,400
Speaker 2: was good for me because I couldn't do it anymore

1082
01:08:03,400 --> 01:08:05,160
Speaker 2: and it wasn't legal in Australia at that point. That

1083
01:08:05,280 --> 01:08:07,320
Speaker 2: was nice. So they pulled it back and it was

1084
01:08:07,320 --> 01:08:10,120
Speaker 2: about I think it was about ten years and now

1085
01:08:10,160 --> 01:08:15,360
Speaker 2: it's back. So it is a little like to take

1086
01:08:15,560 --> 01:08:18,559
Speaker 2: it almost feels like if you were to say, we're

1087
01:08:18,560 --> 01:08:21,400
Speaker 2: going to can every mobile gambling appen to be like,

1088
01:08:21,800 --> 01:08:24,599
Speaker 2: and we're also going to de electrify the cities, like

1089
01:08:24,640 --> 01:08:28,640
Speaker 2: we've just become so accustomed to having these things and

1090
01:08:28,800 --> 01:08:31,080
Speaker 2: televisions in our hands as a part of going out.

1091
01:08:32,840 --> 01:08:39,200
Speaker 2: But surely that there's got to be some way to

1092
01:08:40,200 --> 01:08:42,400
Speaker 2: have a similar kind of lost limit thing with these

1093
01:08:43,160 --> 01:08:43,799
Speaker 2: with these other.

1094
01:08:43,720 --> 01:08:47,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that has to be in cooperation with banks,

1095
01:08:47,720 --> 01:08:50,600
Speaker 1: you know, like right now, the banks are part of

1096
01:08:50,640 --> 01:08:58,280
Speaker 1: the problem, right One of my clients, she was offered

1097
01:08:58,439 --> 01:09:00,320
Speaker 1: by one of the big banks I will not name

1098
01:09:00,400 --> 01:09:01,200
Speaker 1: and shame on.

1099
01:09:01,200 --> 01:09:04,760
Speaker 2: Air, but there's four no.

1100
01:09:06,840 --> 01:09:11,599
Speaker 1: Five increases to a personal loan in a month, charging

1101
01:09:11,640 --> 01:09:15,479
Speaker 1: her two hundred and fifty dollars a pop from six

1102
01:09:15,520 --> 01:09:18,840
Speaker 1: thousand dollars to thirty four thousand dollars, knowing she was

1103
01:09:18,880 --> 01:09:20,439
Speaker 1: gambling using that.

1104
01:09:20,840 --> 01:09:23,519
Speaker 2: So going straight from the personal line to a gambling company,

1105
01:09:23,720 --> 01:09:26,320
Speaker 2: the BSB account details B pay whatever.

1106
01:09:26,280 --> 01:09:30,200
Speaker 1: They're offering the increase to her five in a month

1107
01:09:30,840 --> 01:09:33,200
Speaker 1: because there's so many little players, and do you know

1108
01:09:33,240 --> 01:09:37,880
Speaker 1: what they're asking their there's an actual line they ask customers,

1109
01:09:38,040 --> 01:09:39,400
Speaker 1: are you going to use this for gambling?

1110
01:09:39,880 --> 01:09:40,400
Speaker 2: Of course not.

1111
01:09:41,960 --> 01:09:44,320
Speaker 1: So they can say, well, you can't come back at

1112
01:09:44,360 --> 01:09:45,760
Speaker 1: us because we asked you if you were going to

1113
01:09:45,840 --> 01:09:46,599
Speaker 1: use it for gambling.

1114
01:09:46,760 --> 01:09:49,160
Speaker 2: Do they not see where the money then goes?

1115
01:09:49,240 --> 01:09:52,519
Speaker 1: They of course know exactly where it's going. This is

1116
01:09:52,560 --> 01:09:56,160
Speaker 1: the predatory landscape that we find ourselves in in Australia

1117
01:09:56,200 --> 01:09:59,960
Speaker 1: because we are so profoundly unprotected as consumer.

1118
01:10:00,240 --> 01:10:04,080
Speaker 2: So maybe is the solution not going for the gambling apps,

1119
01:10:04,120 --> 01:10:06,400
Speaker 2: but this is a solution going at the banks, going

1120
01:10:07,280 --> 01:10:10,360
Speaker 2: this is the limit of any deposits to any kind

1121
01:10:10,400 --> 01:10:11,280
Speaker 2: of gambling business.

1122
01:10:11,720 --> 01:10:15,320
Speaker 1: This is a whole of system. We need a holistic

1123
01:10:15,439 --> 01:10:21,040
Speaker 1: approach to this, right. You know, the way it has

1124
01:10:21,120 --> 01:10:25,880
Speaker 1: been set up is you know, the industry will go, oh,

1125
01:10:25,880 --> 01:10:27,840
Speaker 1: look there's something right and shining over there. We'll do this,

1126
01:10:27,880 --> 01:10:31,080
Speaker 1: we'll tinker over here, or we'll distract you with this

1127
01:10:31,439 --> 01:10:36,360
Speaker 1: and everyone. You know it's split between state powers or

1128
01:10:36,680 --> 01:10:43,080
Speaker 1: too federal ministers or you know, it's so complex again

1129
01:10:43,240 --> 01:10:47,160
Speaker 1: by design, but there is solutions and other countries have

1130
01:10:47,280 --> 01:10:52,280
Speaker 1: implemented safeguards and actually put the well being of their

1131
01:10:53,640 --> 01:10:58,200
Speaker 1: you know, people that live there as a top priority.

1132
01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:02,000
Speaker 2: When it comes to gamble losses and the harm of gambling.

1133
01:11:02,000 --> 01:11:04,600
Speaker 2: In Australia, we often just see the big numbers and

1134
01:11:04,640 --> 01:11:08,280
Speaker 2: they're terrifying numbers. What is the overall public health cost

1135
01:11:08,360 --> 01:11:13,000
Speaker 2: once you factor in things like lost productivity, you know,

1136
01:11:13,200 --> 01:11:17,080
Speaker 2: health care costs, TV, you know, lost houses, all that

1137
01:11:17,160 --> 01:11:17,759
Speaker 2: kind of stuff.

1138
01:11:17,880 --> 01:11:25,920
Speaker 1: The study that was done in Victoria extrapolated that four

1139
01:11:26,000 --> 01:11:32,479
Speaker 1: times the loss losses equals the social harm. So if

1140
01:11:32,600 --> 01:11:36,439
Speaker 1: Australia is losing thirty two billion dollars in losses. Your

1141
01:11:36,880 --> 01:11:38,120
Speaker 1: times out by four.

1142
01:11:38,040 --> 01:11:40,599
Speaker 2: One hundred and twenty eight billion dollars cost to US

1143
01:11:40,680 --> 01:11:44,439
Speaker 2: as a tax payer society, as a social cost, the

1144
01:11:44,520 --> 01:11:48,639
Speaker 2: social harm and that includes you know, hospital admissions and

1145
01:11:48,840 --> 01:11:52,920
Speaker 2: you know police intervention and justice systems and you know

1146
01:11:53,240 --> 01:11:55,240
Speaker 2: kids getting taken away, all that kind of stuff.

1147
01:11:55,520 --> 01:11:59,960
Speaker 1: A woman I advocate with she said when she was incarcerated,

1148
01:12:00,240 --> 01:12:03,479
Speaker 1: seventy five percent of the female population was there from

1149
01:12:03,560 --> 01:12:09,879
Speaker 1: gambling related Huh, just let.

1150
01:12:09,680 --> 01:12:15,440
Speaker 2: That sink in magnificent. It's up there, isn't it. It's reeficks,

1151
01:12:15,600 --> 01:12:19,759
Speaker 2: the cognitive dissonance between once profit gets involved, the cognitive

1152
01:12:19,800 --> 01:12:28,519
Speaker 2: dissonance between actual factual science. You know, a line that's

1153
01:12:28,560 --> 01:12:33,200
Speaker 2: extrapolated directly from a human harm between for example, fossil

1154
01:12:33,200 --> 01:12:38,280
Speaker 2: fuel use and profit and this it's just so obviously there.

1155
01:12:39,080 --> 01:12:43,320
Speaker 2: And yet what is what happens in decision makers heads

1156
01:12:43,479 --> 01:12:50,400
Speaker 2: that goes, yeah, but like, do you have some sort

1157
01:12:50,439 --> 01:12:52,519
Speaker 2: of blind trust that's sending all four of your kids

1158
01:12:52,600 --> 01:12:55,880
Speaker 2: to some mad public school a private school and you

1159
01:12:55,880 --> 01:12:57,560
Speaker 2: know you're just going to go skiing an aspen and

1160
01:12:57,560 --> 01:12:59,320
Speaker 2: no one's gonna ask where the money came. Like, what

1161
01:12:59,320 --> 01:13:02,679
Speaker 2: what is happening? Yeah, to figure this out.

1162
01:13:03,040 --> 01:13:07,280
Speaker 1: It's why you know, I'm asked to speak in workplaces, schools,

1163
01:13:07,520 --> 01:13:12,360
Speaker 1: you know, universities because people are experiencing harm and right

1164
01:13:12,400 --> 01:13:18,639
Speaker 1: now there's no nothing that makes sense that helps people

1165
01:13:18,680 --> 01:13:23,280
Speaker 1: make sense of why nothing is being done. So, you know,

1166
01:13:23,600 --> 01:13:27,720
Speaker 1: empowering people to be able to see the landscape for

1167
01:13:27,800 --> 01:13:32,000
Speaker 1: what it is and make empowered choices, liberating people from

1168
01:13:32,080 --> 01:13:37,840
Speaker 1: shame that wasn't theirs is vital and helping to illuminate

1169
01:13:38,200 --> 01:13:42,559
Speaker 1: actual support systems that you know, don't don't feel bad

1170
01:13:42,640 --> 01:13:45,720
Speaker 1: if you need to seek help for what's happening to you,

1171
01:13:46,240 --> 01:13:50,000
Speaker 1: because that's exactly how it was designed for you to experience.

1172
01:13:50,640 --> 01:13:55,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not your fault, and if you feel powerless

1173
01:13:55,200 --> 01:13:57,720
Speaker 2: about it, the powerful thing you can do is to

1174
01:13:57,920 --> 01:14:01,960
Speaker 2: seek help. And there is plenty of help, yes, but

1175
01:14:02,280 --> 01:14:05,400
Speaker 2: it's not going to go away. And recognizing that you

1176
01:14:05,400 --> 01:14:07,759
Speaker 2: can no longer stop it yourself, it's probably a really

1177
01:14:08,560 --> 01:14:11,639
Speaker 2: it's okay to have that, to notice that because it's

1178
01:14:11,680 --> 01:14:13,519
Speaker 2: designed that you can't stop it yourself.

1179
01:14:13,760 --> 01:14:19,920
Speaker 1: They built a system that overpowers human instincts. That's what

1180
01:14:19,920 --> 01:14:24,440
Speaker 1: you've got to remember. It's not just harmless fun. It

1181
01:14:24,520 --> 01:14:25,960
Speaker 1: couldn't be further from the truth.

1182
01:14:26,880 --> 01:14:29,280
Speaker 2: The change that tradition is called.

1183
01:14:29,600 --> 01:14:33,200
Speaker 1: Hashtag loss limits, not lost lives.

1184
01:14:33,920 --> 01:14:36,360
Speaker 2: It's a groom hashtag, but it does. It does what

1185
01:14:36,400 --> 01:14:40,160
Speaker 2: it says in the box. You know, thanks for coming in.

1186
01:14:41,360 --> 01:14:49,240
Speaker 2: You made it Yes, both holistically and today. I know

1187
01:14:49,840 --> 01:14:53,680
Speaker 2: it's good to have you here. And yeah, if you

1188
01:14:53,760 --> 01:14:55,479
Speaker 2: if you need any help, if there's any I can do,

1189
01:14:55,600 --> 01:15:01,320
Speaker 2: don't hesitate the people that are empowering p obviously behind this.

1190
01:15:01,439 --> 01:15:02,960
Speaker 2: Who are some other people down a camera that are

1191
01:15:03,000 --> 01:15:03,680
Speaker 2: working out in this.

1192
01:15:04,160 --> 01:15:14,879
Speaker 1: Wilkie legris Bender, Kate Cheney. There's so many people acting

1193
01:15:15,000 --> 01:15:20,520
Speaker 1: in integrity and it's disappointing when our leader isn't.

1194
01:15:20,400 --> 01:15:22,640
Speaker 2: Helping the people that are trying to help. Is a

1195
01:15:22,640 --> 01:15:26,519
Speaker 2: good place to start as well, if aside from sticking

1196
01:15:26,520 --> 01:15:29,000
Speaker 2: your name on a petition, it's having a look and

1197
01:15:29,040 --> 01:15:32,280
Speaker 2: seeing what people are talking about and try to fight

1198
01:15:32,360 --> 01:15:34,439
Speaker 2: a different narrative to the one that's being fed by

1199
01:15:35,439 --> 01:15:41,759
Speaker 2: vested interest vested interests. Thanks, thanks for coming in.

1200
01:15:41,920 --> 01:15:42,760
Speaker 1: No thank you.

1201
01:15:44,479 --> 01:15:46,519
Speaker 2: It's been a while since I deleted the last betting

1202
01:15:46,600 --> 01:15:48,680
Speaker 2: up off my phone, but I got to tell you

1203
01:15:48,720 --> 01:15:51,760
Speaker 2: I'm glad I did. If you recognize anything in that

1204
01:15:51,800 --> 01:15:55,840
Speaker 2: conversation that sunds familiar, you'll be grateful to know that

1205
01:15:55,920 --> 01:15:58,600
Speaker 2: help is available. Help is free, and help us everywhere.

1206
01:15:59,280 --> 01:16:01,200
Speaker 2: And the first step is to get beyond the shame.

1207
01:16:01,960 --> 01:16:04,200
Speaker 2: You've got to get beyond the shame because it's designed,

1208
01:16:05,200 --> 01:16:07,559
Speaker 2: as you've just heard, designed to not let you get

1209
01:16:07,560 --> 01:16:11,320
Speaker 2: out of it. Kat's doing some great work pushing for reform.

1210
01:16:11,479 --> 01:16:14,599
Speaker 2: We can read more about that at Thehope Project now

1211
01:16:14,640 --> 01:16:16,920
Speaker 2: dot com. I'll put the details in the show notes.

1212
01:16:17,640 --> 01:16:19,080
Speaker 2: If this show is useful to you, if it was

1213
01:16:19,120 --> 01:16:24,360
Speaker 2: helpful for you, please share it with somebody like subscribe, follow, rate, review,

1214
01:16:24,880 --> 01:16:28,120
Speaker 2: do all those things. These things actually help us more

1215
01:16:28,160 --> 01:16:30,120
Speaker 2: than buying the stuff we advertise, even though it does

1216
01:16:30,160 --> 01:16:33,320
Speaker 2: help us well. But please, thanks for being a part

1217
01:16:33,320 --> 01:16:35,400
Speaker 2: of it. Thank you so much for listening. I'll put

1218
01:16:35,439 --> 01:16:38,240
Speaker 2: some gambling help in the show notes as well. Thanks

1219
01:16:38,280 --> 01:16:41,240
Speaker 2: to Damian for producing the show. I'll see you back

1220
01:16:41,240 --> 01:16:45,960
Speaker 2: here on Monday.