1 00:00:05,881 --> 00:00:15,721 Speaker 1: Appoche Production. Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shanned. I'm 2 00:00:15,761 --> 00:00:18,241 Speaker 1: your host, Adam Shan. Thanks for joining me today. I 3 00:00:18,241 --> 00:00:20,641 Speaker 1: feel like our content. Please hit the like and subscribe 4 00:00:20,681 --> 00:00:23,161 Speaker 1: buttons and share the show with your friends, family, enemies, 5 00:00:23,201 --> 00:00:26,121 Speaker 1: passing strangers. That doesn't matter, It's all about continuing to 6 00:00:26,161 --> 00:00:31,441 Speaker 1: produce this independent crime journalism. The Mushroom Cook Aaron Patterson 7 00:00:31,521 --> 00:00:33,361 Speaker 1: was back in the news last week as her pre 8 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:34,641 Speaker 1: sentencing hearing began. 9 00:00:35,201 --> 00:00:38,480 Speaker 2: Three people have now died and another is fighting for 10 00:00:38,601 --> 00:00:41,961 Speaker 2: life after being poisoned by wild mushrooms at a lunch 11 00:00:42,001 --> 00:00:43,241 Speaker 2: with friends in Gippsland. 12 00:00:44,241 --> 00:00:47,641 Speaker 1: She's facing a long lagging after being convicted of three 13 00:00:47,681 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 1: counts of murder and one of attempted murder over that 14 00:00:51,241 --> 00:00:53,001 Speaker 1: deadly lunch at her home and len gather. 15 00:00:53,161 --> 00:00:54,561 Speaker 3: In twenty twenty three. 16 00:00:55,001 --> 00:01:00,201 Speaker 1: Aaron Patterson waking up a convicted triple murderer. Her beef 17 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:03,881 Speaker 1: Wellington's laced with death cap mushrooms killed her ex husband's parents, 18 00:01:04,361 --> 00:01:08,041 Speaker 1: Don and Gale Patterson, along with Gail's sister, Heather Wilkinson. 19 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:12,761 Speaker 1: Heather's husband, Pastor Ian Wilkinson, survived to tell the story 20 00:01:13,241 --> 00:01:16,441 Speaker 1: of this most bizarre and seemingly egregious crime. 21 00:01:17,041 --> 00:01:20,241 Speaker 2: In Wilkinson told the court the greatest impact of Aaron's 22 00:01:20,241 --> 00:01:23,161 Speaker 2: actions on me has been to deprive me of Heather's company. 23 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:26,401 Speaker 2: The silence in our home is a daily reminder I 24 00:01:26,441 --> 00:01:28,481 Speaker 2: only feel half alive without her. 25 00:01:29,481 --> 00:01:33,041 Speaker 1: In Victoria, the maximum jail sentence for murder is life 26 00:01:33,041 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 1: imprisonment twenty five years with a minimum non parole period 27 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:40,681 Speaker 1: of thirty years, and I suspect Patterson will serve every day. 28 00:01:40,521 --> 00:01:42,401 Speaker 3: Of that and it will be hard time. 29 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:46,601 Speaker 1: Indeed, it's only now after her conviction that we're seeing 30 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:50,241 Speaker 1: the extent of Patterson's conduct, the evidence of her long 31 00:01:50,361 --> 00:01:53,881 Speaker 1: term premeditation of this ghastly act, which, according to her 32 00:01:53,881 --> 00:01:57,921 Speaker 1: sentencing judge, puts her offending in the worst possible category. 33 00:01:58,601 --> 00:02:00,881 Speaker 1: Most of us have had to piece together our impressions 34 00:02:00,881 --> 00:02:02,681 Speaker 1: of Patterson from court reporting. 35 00:02:03,281 --> 00:02:05,681 Speaker 4: I come fath them what has happened. 36 00:02:06,721 --> 00:02:09,481 Speaker 1: But the media covering the nine week trial, we're able 37 00:02:09,521 --> 00:02:12,481 Speaker 1: to observe the killer up close and to compare and 38 00:02:12,561 --> 00:02:15,361 Speaker 1: contrast their impressions of her with the evidence they were 39 00:02:15,401 --> 00:02:18,201 Speaker 1: hearing and seeing, and also the evidence that the jury 40 00:02:18,281 --> 00:02:21,721 Speaker 1: did not see. My guest today, John Ferguson of the 41 00:02:21,721 --> 00:02:25,241 Speaker 1: Australian newspaper has been on this from day one. He 42 00:02:25,281 --> 00:02:27,801 Speaker 1: broke the story that has now gone around the world. 43 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:31,281 Speaker 1: It's my pleasure to welcome John, the Pride of Narrow Court, 44 00:02:31,361 --> 00:02:34,081 Speaker 1: South Australia to the real crime stitio Gidey. 45 00:02:33,841 --> 00:02:37,681 Speaker 4: Fergh my mates in Aracle, I love that. Thank you. 46 00:02:38,121 --> 00:02:38,721 Speaker 4: How are you going? 47 00:02:39,401 --> 00:02:43,001 Speaker 1: I'm very well mate. Amazing story and you were there 48 00:02:43,001 --> 00:02:44,881 Speaker 1: from day one. How did it begin for you? 49 00:02:46,601 --> 00:02:50,401 Speaker 4: Well, I suppose it began in a sense for Aaron 50 00:02:50,481 --> 00:02:53,881 Speaker 4: as well. On August five, twenty twenty three, I was 51 00:02:53,921 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 4: at home. I was about to take my youngest child 52 00:02:57,321 --> 00:03:00,801 Speaker 4: to football and I got a tip off that there'd 53 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:04,641 Speaker 4: been a mass poisoning at LeAnn Gatha. There are potentially 54 00:03:04,641 --> 00:03:09,041 Speaker 4: a large number of people dead. And I've got to say, Adam, 55 00:03:09,201 --> 00:03:12,081 Speaker 4: it was a Saturday. We don't have a newspaper on Sunday, 56 00:03:12,201 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 4: so really was should I file for the web? And 57 00:03:15,921 --> 00:03:19,800 Speaker 4: thankfully I did? Rang police and very quickly. It was 58 00:03:19,841 --> 00:03:23,601 Speaker 4: a bit unusual. Usually with Victoria Police things can move slowly, 59 00:03:23,641 --> 00:03:28,121 Speaker 4: particularly on a decent story, and bang, almost immediately a 60 00:03:28,201 --> 00:03:34,121 Speaker 4: detailed statement outlining how yes, they were investigating this mass 61 00:03:34,161 --> 00:03:38,161 Speaker 4: poisoning at LeAnn Gatha. Essentially, they sort of said they 62 00:03:38,201 --> 00:03:40,481 Speaker 4: had an open mind from memory what the statement said, 63 00:03:40,481 --> 00:03:43,281 Speaker 4: but there was nothing to go, oh, this is interesting. 64 00:03:43,761 --> 00:03:46,881 Speaker 4: So I quickly, and I'm not joking, rattled out, probably 65 00:03:46,921 --> 00:03:50,401 Speaker 4: in about eleven minutes a story. It went up and 66 00:03:50,441 --> 00:03:52,921 Speaker 4: then it just went off like a forty four gallum 67 00:03:53,321 --> 00:03:56,641 Speaker 4: drum of kerosene put on the barbecue. It just the 68 00:03:56,721 --> 00:03:57,561 Speaker 4: story exploded. 69 00:03:58,281 --> 00:04:02,121 Speaker 1: And I guess at the beginning, people are looking at 70 00:04:02,121 --> 00:04:05,401 Speaker 1: this story, she's not a crim It doesn't seemed to 71 00:04:05,441 --> 00:04:07,481 Speaker 1: be a strong motive. We'll talk about motive later, but 72 00:04:07,481 --> 00:04:09,721 Speaker 1: it doesn't seem to be a strong motive here. So 73 00:04:09,761 --> 00:04:12,081 Speaker 1: I guess you're prepared to give it the benefit of 74 00:04:12,081 --> 00:04:15,881 Speaker 1: the doubt. But this is a terrible accident perhaps, But 75 00:04:15,921 --> 00:04:16,961 Speaker 1: what was your impression? 76 00:04:17,681 --> 00:04:20,801 Speaker 4: Well, from day one it was hard to say, but 77 00:04:20,921 --> 00:04:23,561 Speaker 4: by the month, so that was a Saturday, so on August, 78 00:04:23,841 --> 00:04:27,241 Speaker 4: and that actually happened to be when we published, police 79 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 4: raided her house for the first time. So they've worked out, well, 80 00:04:30,681 --> 00:04:31,961 Speaker 4: the meet is on to it, so we're going to 81 00:04:32,041 --> 00:04:34,681 Speaker 4: have to move and so they went in and took 82 00:04:34,721 --> 00:04:37,201 Speaker 4: her down to thank you for that first record of 83 00:04:37,241 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 4: interview on the Monday, the head of the homicide squad 84 00:04:41,361 --> 00:04:45,881 Speaker 4: came out, Dean Thomas, and he basically named Aaron Pattison 85 00:04:46,161 --> 00:04:51,401 Speaker 4: as a suspect. Now that's when everyone started going, okay, well, 86 00:04:51,241 --> 00:04:54,721 Speaker 4: we thought somebody might have just cooked up a really 87 00:04:54,801 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 4: dun spaghetti marinara or something that had gone off, but no, 88 00:04:58,361 --> 00:05:01,961 Speaker 4: this was actually the police were seriously looking at her, 89 00:05:02,041 --> 00:05:06,641 Speaker 4: and as events started to unfold, it obvious while they 90 00:05:06,641 --> 00:05:10,601 Speaker 4: were looking at her, because by that point, Simon Patterson 91 00:05:10,601 --> 00:05:13,241 Speaker 4: had been telling people that, well, hang on, this is 92 00:05:13,281 --> 00:05:16,561 Speaker 4: my ex wife I believe had been trying to poison 93 00:05:16,601 --> 00:05:20,721 Speaker 4: me several times. So that was the big underlying, I suppose, 94 00:05:20,841 --> 00:05:22,161 Speaker 4: vibe of the story. 95 00:05:22,761 --> 00:05:24,801 Speaker 1: And this was the whole crux of the story, wasn't 96 00:05:24,841 --> 00:05:28,041 Speaker 1: it that there was a long term premeditation of this 97 00:05:28,201 --> 00:05:31,561 Speaker 1: crime that had begun with the breakdown of her marriage 98 00:05:31,601 --> 00:05:35,161 Speaker 1: to Simon Patterson. They've got two kids together, and this 99 00:05:35,681 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 1: incredible story that she tried to poison him before. 100 00:05:39,561 --> 00:05:40,681 Speaker 3: What was the story about that? 101 00:05:42,121 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 4: Well, so basically she was actually charged with several attempt 102 00:05:46,121 --> 00:05:49,561 Speaker 4: to murder charges which were later dropped, but basically he 103 00:05:49,601 --> 00:05:53,401 Speaker 4: accused her. He actually kept a spreadsheet of this he'd 104 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:57,281 Speaker 4: got really really ill a couple of times, quite seriously 105 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:01,601 Speaker 4: critically ill. After what he said was Aaron Patterson had 106 00:06:01,641 --> 00:06:04,681 Speaker 4: cooked him meals. That was the link. The link was 107 00:06:04,761 --> 00:06:07,641 Speaker 4: he went through, did a spreadsheet AND's gone on, hang on, 108 00:06:08,081 --> 00:06:11,281 Speaker 4: every time I've got sick, Aaron's cook food for me. 109 00:06:12,041 --> 00:06:15,681 Speaker 4: So that was the sandwich wraps, the chicken, corma curry, 110 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:18,161 Speaker 4: the stew, the pasta. 111 00:06:18,761 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 1: You know. 112 00:06:19,121 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 4: So there were four occasions. She was only charged with 113 00:06:22,241 --> 00:06:27,041 Speaker 4: three attempted murger. But so that detail is swirling around 114 00:06:27,601 --> 00:06:30,761 Speaker 4: the background, and so police clearly would have known about 115 00:06:30,801 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 4: this by the time Dean Thomas came out, and it 116 00:06:33,161 --> 00:06:36,201 Speaker 4: was a major factor in setting the perception of the story. 117 00:06:36,561 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 1: And he was really crooked and he had to go 118 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:41,361 Speaker 1: to hospital. He had part of his intestine taken out. 119 00:06:41,801 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: I mean that having happened, surely there was some concern 120 00:06:46,401 --> 00:06:50,841 Speaker 1: about accepting another invitation to lunch later on. I don't 121 00:06:50,841 --> 00:06:53,121 Speaker 1: want to make light of this, but it certainly should 122 00:06:53,121 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 1: have sent alarm bells through the family. 123 00:06:54,801 --> 00:06:56,801 Speaker 3: Was there any evidence that people were on guard? 124 00:06:57,801 --> 00:07:02,081 Speaker 4: Well, Simon discussed it with his father, Don, who died beforehand, 125 00:07:02,121 --> 00:07:05,681 Speaker 4: explained he wouldn't be going, and Simon Patterson told his 126 00:07:05,721 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 4: father previously before the lunch that he suspected Aaron of 127 00:07:09,841 --> 00:07:13,361 Speaker 4: trying to kill him, and his father had said, well, 128 00:07:13,361 --> 00:07:16,401 Speaker 4: I don't know. Paraphrasing, he said, well, I don't suggest 129 00:07:16,441 --> 00:07:19,041 Speaker 4: you go around telling people that. So this was a 130 00:07:19,041 --> 00:07:23,961 Speaker 4: classic old school country response. Reputation is everything, we don't 131 00:07:24,201 --> 00:07:26,841 Speaker 4: I'm paraphrasing, and I'm thinking it through as to what 132 00:07:26,921 --> 00:07:30,361 Speaker 4: might have been going through Don's head. She's the mother 133 00:07:30,761 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 4: of your kids and et cetera, et cetera. But there 134 00:07:33,761 --> 00:07:37,241 Speaker 4: also had been before then. There'd been discussions with a 135 00:07:37,321 --> 00:07:40,881 Speaker 4: doctor in a fifty seven minute consultation in the February 136 00:07:40,881 --> 00:07:45,401 Speaker 4: of twenty twenty three, whereiggs I think she's trying to 137 00:07:45,481 --> 00:07:47,921 Speaker 4: kill me, she told the doctor. And there had also 138 00:07:48,041 --> 00:07:50,961 Speaker 4: been a discussion with In fact, one of his cousins 139 00:07:51,001 --> 00:07:53,441 Speaker 4: had suggested, well, is Aaron trying to do something to you? 140 00:07:53,521 --> 00:07:57,721 Speaker 4: This is beforehand, And there was also a discussion Simon 141 00:07:57,761 --> 00:08:01,881 Speaker 4: had with a brother at a music concert or in Melbourne, 142 00:08:01,881 --> 00:08:04,961 Speaker 4: all prior to the lunch, so it wasn't a secret. 143 00:08:05,481 --> 00:08:09,081 Speaker 1: Yeah, of course the family had attended another lunch prior 144 00:08:09,121 --> 00:08:10,401 Speaker 1: to this, when nothing had happened. 145 00:08:10,881 --> 00:08:12,641 Speaker 3: How do you interpret that lunch. 146 00:08:12,721 --> 00:08:16,601 Speaker 1: Now, was it possibly a throwoff that she was now 147 00:08:16,641 --> 00:08:20,041 Speaker 1: trying to re establish trust in terms of her long 148 00:08:20,161 --> 00:08:22,121 Speaker 1: term plan to murder them? 149 00:08:23,361 --> 00:08:25,561 Speaker 4: Yeah, Look, it's really hard to One of the things 150 00:08:25,601 --> 00:08:29,841 Speaker 4: about Aaron Patterson, she is a terminal liar. Basically, if 151 00:08:29,881 --> 00:08:32,681 Speaker 4: she opens her mouth, that's probably a lie. And that 152 00:08:32,881 --> 00:08:35,801 Speaker 4: was the thing that happened in court. That's what the 153 00:08:35,881 --> 00:08:39,841 Speaker 4: jury saw up close and personal over those six or 154 00:08:39,881 --> 00:08:42,401 Speaker 4: eight days that she was in the stand. That's what 155 00:08:42,441 --> 00:08:46,041 Speaker 4: they saw. So that the fact that she had there 156 00:08:46,081 --> 00:08:49,721 Speaker 4: was another lunch is probably, frankly, not that unusual because 157 00:08:50,161 --> 00:08:53,881 Speaker 4: the family, even though Simon and Aaron were estrange, they 158 00:08:53,921 --> 00:08:57,721 Speaker 4: did still meet at times and do things together. 159 00:08:58,841 --> 00:09:02,081 Speaker 1: But because the media and I guess the broader public 160 00:09:02,401 --> 00:09:06,481 Speaker 1: has spent a long time trying to understand motive for 161 00:09:06,521 --> 00:09:08,641 Speaker 1: this crime, and that seems to be central to our 162 00:09:08,761 --> 00:09:11,281 Speaker 1: understanding and why this happened. Of course, the lawyers don't 163 00:09:11,281 --> 00:09:14,561 Speaker 1: think that way. It's simply all about criminal intent. Once 164 00:09:14,601 --> 00:09:17,521 Speaker 1: she puts the death cap mushrooms in the beef wellingtons, 165 00:09:18,081 --> 00:09:22,201 Speaker 1: she has now decided to kill these people. But motive 166 00:09:22,561 --> 00:09:24,321 Speaker 1: is certainly important to us and the prosecution. I guess 167 00:09:24,321 --> 00:09:25,841 Speaker 1: he uses it to throw a bit more fuel on 168 00:09:25,881 --> 00:09:30,161 Speaker 1: the fire to her offending. But these are ordinary people, 169 00:09:30,521 --> 00:09:34,321 Speaker 1: nice country folk. This is a story that gets played 170 00:09:34,361 --> 00:09:38,721 Speaker 1: out in thousands of breakdowns of marriages. It doesn't seem 171 00:09:38,761 --> 00:09:41,961 Speaker 1: to be any motive for murder. How did you approach 172 00:09:42,041 --> 00:09:44,641 Speaker 1: that question as you were trying to relate this to 173 00:09:44,721 --> 00:09:46,761 Speaker 1: your readers in these times? 174 00:09:47,401 --> 00:09:52,041 Speaker 4: Well, I've always said that it was revenge, that basically 175 00:09:52,241 --> 00:09:56,521 Speaker 4: she hated her husband, her estranged husband, to such an 176 00:09:56,561 --> 00:10:00,521 Speaker 4: extent that she was prepared to potentially and some of 177 00:10:00,561 --> 00:10:03,361 Speaker 4: these charges were thrown out, potentially killing, try to kill him, 178 00:10:03,561 --> 00:10:08,641 Speaker 4: and certainly loathing enough that she would take on the 179 00:10:08,721 --> 00:10:11,801 Speaker 4: four elderly guests. I think it's very straightforward in my 180 00:10:11,921 --> 00:10:14,121 Speaker 4: mind that it's complete and not a revenge. 181 00:10:14,761 --> 00:10:17,161 Speaker 1: You say that now, but let's look at the arc 182 00:10:17,241 --> 00:10:19,641 Speaker 1: of this story as you've covered it and the first 183 00:10:19,641 --> 00:10:21,441 Speaker 1: time you clapped eyes on there, and what are your 184 00:10:21,481 --> 00:10:22,441 Speaker 1: impressions of her? 185 00:10:24,401 --> 00:10:29,721 Speaker 4: She's really, really bright, she's clearly intelligent, well read, she's 186 00:10:29,721 --> 00:10:34,921 Speaker 4: got a nasty streak, she struggles to communicate with people, 187 00:10:35,401 --> 00:10:38,841 Speaker 4: she makes things up. All these things I've seen and 188 00:10:38,881 --> 00:10:42,721 Speaker 4: it was a very consistent story, very consistent the whole 189 00:10:42,761 --> 00:10:45,001 Speaker 4: way through. And that's an interesting part about us being 190 00:10:45,041 --> 00:10:47,881 Speaker 4: a journalist is that you get to test things out, 191 00:10:47,921 --> 00:10:50,561 Speaker 4: and if you talk to enough people, you either get 192 00:10:50,601 --> 00:10:53,201 Speaker 4: a consistent or an inconsistent picture of someone. And it 193 00:10:53,241 --> 00:10:55,601 Speaker 4: can happen either way, as you know, but there was 194 00:10:55,601 --> 00:10:58,921 Speaker 4: a fairly consistent picture of her. The other two things, 195 00:10:58,921 --> 00:11:01,081 Speaker 4: I would say, she had a sense of humor, and 196 00:11:01,121 --> 00:11:04,041 Speaker 4: this is what people told me, a caustic sense of humor. 197 00:11:04,121 --> 00:11:07,601 Speaker 4: She was a cynical woman. But also she was a 198 00:11:07,601 --> 00:11:10,641 Speaker 4: good mother. And I don't think anyone I haven't found, 199 00:11:11,121 --> 00:11:14,201 Speaker 4: although the question is if you kill someone's grandparents, are 200 00:11:14,201 --> 00:11:16,761 Speaker 4: your good mum? Well, clearly not. But in the sort 201 00:11:16,801 --> 00:11:21,401 Speaker 4: of observation of her, everyone I've spoken to say she 202 00:11:21,481 --> 00:11:22,361 Speaker 4: was a good mum. 203 00:11:23,241 --> 00:11:23,521 Speaker 3: Yeah. 204 00:11:23,841 --> 00:11:26,241 Speaker 1: I guess most of us formed our opinion of her 205 00:11:26,321 --> 00:11:30,041 Speaker 1: from the early appearances before the cameras, where she was 206 00:11:30,121 --> 00:11:33,161 Speaker 1: tearfully saying this is all a terrible tragedy and accident. 207 00:11:33,601 --> 00:11:36,521 Speaker 1: And I guess we're looking at and saying, well, this 208 00:11:36,521 --> 00:11:38,521 Speaker 1: would have to be the dumbest murder plot of all 209 00:11:38,561 --> 00:11:42,281 Speaker 1: time because the finger would only be pointed at Aaron, 210 00:11:42,361 --> 00:11:44,281 Speaker 1: and you make the point about her own children, she's 211 00:11:44,361 --> 00:11:48,481 Speaker 1: murdered their grandparents. And I think a lot of people 212 00:11:48,801 --> 00:11:51,241 Speaker 1: were sort of saying, there must be more to this story, 213 00:11:51,361 --> 00:11:53,761 Speaker 1: there must be some piece that we're not seeing. But 214 00:11:54,201 --> 00:11:56,721 Speaker 1: you were, I guess, behind the scenes of this story 215 00:11:56,761 --> 00:11:59,161 Speaker 1: early on, talking to police, talking to people in the area. 216 00:11:59,561 --> 00:12:04,121 Speaker 1: And how long before you formed the view that she 217 00:12:04,281 --> 00:12:04,801 Speaker 1: was a killer. 218 00:12:06,641 --> 00:12:09,921 Speaker 4: I hate to say it, but fairly reasonably quickly. I 219 00:12:09,961 --> 00:12:12,361 Speaker 4: had my doubts. I just have my doubts about her, 220 00:12:12,561 --> 00:12:16,721 Speaker 4: and I'd sort of tapped into some people who knew 221 00:12:16,761 --> 00:12:20,441 Speaker 4: her well, and I had a lot of doubts about her. 222 00:12:20,961 --> 00:12:25,121 Speaker 4: I certainly thought that she had the capacity to do 223 00:12:25,201 --> 00:12:28,801 Speaker 4: something like this, But look, this is hindsight, and you 224 00:12:28,921 --> 00:12:33,321 Speaker 4: always have an open mind until the pre trial, which 225 00:12:33,401 --> 00:12:37,441 Speaker 4: was all suppressed. When the detail around the allegations against 226 00:12:37,441 --> 00:12:41,241 Speaker 4: Simon came out, then things started. I suppose in everyone's mind, 227 00:12:41,681 --> 00:12:44,881 Speaker 4: you're going, well, there's a lot going on here. So 228 00:12:45,161 --> 00:12:49,161 Speaker 4: I suppose I was sixty forty YEA, she could have 229 00:12:49,241 --> 00:12:52,081 Speaker 4: done it. I suppose it's probably I'm being very loose here. 230 00:12:52,121 --> 00:12:56,001 Speaker 4: I'm not. This is not a scientific debriefing, psycholostic briefing. 231 00:12:56,321 --> 00:12:58,481 Speaker 3: It's your personal impressions. 232 00:12:58,921 --> 00:13:03,121 Speaker 4: Yeah, look, she's not a very nice person, Adam, and 233 00:13:03,521 --> 00:13:07,041 Speaker 4: that we know that because she's killed three people, but 234 00:13:07,121 --> 00:13:09,801 Speaker 4: she's actually just not very nice. And the other thing 235 00:13:09,841 --> 00:13:12,121 Speaker 4: that I did do is I really tried to drill 236 00:13:12,201 --> 00:13:17,681 Speaker 4: down into Simon Patterson's family and the Wilkinson's and got 237 00:13:18,121 --> 00:13:21,801 Speaker 4: the same thing, very very consistent picture that they're all 238 00:13:22,201 --> 00:13:27,361 Speaker 4: really good people, particularly Don Patterson, you know, fantastic bloke. Now, 239 00:13:28,201 --> 00:13:32,921 Speaker 4: it wasn't as strong around Simon because the defense, obviously 240 00:13:32,921 --> 00:13:35,441 Speaker 4: in pre trial, were testing him, and there was a 241 00:13:35,441 --> 00:13:38,801 Speaker 4: lot of text messages and Facebook messages that were well 242 00:13:38,881 --> 00:13:42,761 Speaker 4: leaked behind the scenes of Aaron talking about things. So 243 00:13:43,001 --> 00:13:46,521 Speaker 4: you read those and that informs your view of where 244 00:13:46,561 --> 00:13:50,281 Speaker 4: it's at. But none of the criticisms I've seen of 245 00:13:50,321 --> 00:13:54,681 Speaker 4: Simon Patterson, none of them add up to anything other than, 246 00:13:55,641 --> 00:13:58,441 Speaker 4: you know, it's really low level stuff and that he's 247 00:13:58,441 --> 00:13:59,161 Speaker 4: a decent bloke. 248 00:13:59,481 --> 00:14:01,881 Speaker 1: That's why it's so perplexing, I think, to people to 249 00:14:02,121 --> 00:14:06,721 Speaker 1: understand what had Simon done? Aaron just break up, you know, 250 00:14:06,801 --> 00:14:10,801 Speaker 1: it happens every day, But where was the motivation? Where 251 00:14:10,921 --> 00:14:17,121 Speaker 1: was the hurt for this outsized, disproportionate act of revenge. 252 00:14:17,561 --> 00:14:20,681 Speaker 4: So Aaron Patterson had received quite inherited quite a lot 253 00:14:20,721 --> 00:14:24,601 Speaker 4: of money. Let's say it's around three million, it could 254 00:14:24,641 --> 00:14:28,601 Speaker 4: actually be more than that, and she was very generous 255 00:14:28,601 --> 00:14:32,921 Speaker 4: with it. With Simon's family. She gave away, not gave away. 256 00:14:32,961 --> 00:14:35,641 Speaker 4: She got the money back eventually, but hundreds and hundreds 257 00:14:35,641 --> 00:14:38,001 Speaker 4: of thousands of dollars to her in or so they 258 00:14:38,001 --> 00:14:41,201 Speaker 4: could buy houses now she got the money back or 259 00:14:41,201 --> 00:14:44,481 Speaker 4: they got the money back. Everywhere through the narrative of 260 00:14:44,521 --> 00:14:47,641 Speaker 4: her she was generous with the money to the point 261 00:14:47,641 --> 00:14:50,001 Speaker 4: where I would have gone, I wouldn't manage my money 262 00:14:50,041 --> 00:14:53,361 Speaker 4: the way she did. So the moment where the evidence 263 00:14:53,561 --> 00:14:56,721 Speaker 4: was that things really blew up was in around November 264 00:14:56,801 --> 00:15:00,881 Speaker 4: twenty twenty two, when Simon Patterson's accountant, according to his evidence, 265 00:15:01,241 --> 00:15:05,521 Speaker 4: changed his business affairs, stating that he tax affairs single. 266 00:15:06,041 --> 00:15:10,041 Speaker 4: Now that had an impact on basically family payments that 267 00:15:10,081 --> 00:15:13,161 Speaker 4: Aaron Patterson may or may have been eligible for. And 268 00:15:13,201 --> 00:15:17,601 Speaker 4: then really up and that's where the evidence would say 269 00:15:18,321 --> 00:15:22,521 Speaker 4: Aaron went into killer mode. But of course, you know, 270 00:15:22,561 --> 00:15:25,121 Speaker 4: if you think it through, she was up to no 271 00:15:25,241 --> 00:15:28,241 Speaker 4: good before that as well. But that's when their relationship 272 00:15:28,281 --> 00:15:28,961 Speaker 4: really soured. 273 00:15:29,121 --> 00:15:32,161 Speaker 3: It comes back to a simple lack of gratitude. 274 00:15:32,441 --> 00:15:37,721 Speaker 4: Maybe yeah, I think she's Aaron Patterson's an incredibly arrogant woman, 275 00:15:38,361 --> 00:15:42,361 Speaker 4: incredibly arrogant, and yes, well she's gone, well, hang on, 276 00:15:42,441 --> 00:15:44,321 Speaker 4: what are you doing to me? And then this there's 277 00:15:44,361 --> 00:15:46,841 Speaker 4: a blow up in the family about it. She tried 278 00:15:46,881 --> 00:15:49,761 Speaker 4: to get help from Don and Gale Patterson to try 279 00:15:49,801 --> 00:15:53,441 Speaker 4: and mediate but that didn't get very far. And I 280 00:15:53,481 --> 00:15:57,121 Speaker 4: suspect too if you think it through logically, if Simon 281 00:15:57,121 --> 00:16:01,601 Speaker 4: Patterson's starting to think around this point that Aaron had 282 00:16:01,641 --> 00:16:04,161 Speaker 4: tried to kill him up to four times, then he 283 00:16:04,161 --> 00:16:06,641 Speaker 4: wouldn't be very happy with her either. So you can 284 00:16:06,681 --> 00:16:09,881 Speaker 4: be absolutely sure that the relationship that's around the point 285 00:16:09,921 --> 00:16:10,961 Speaker 4: of the relationship. 286 00:16:14,361 --> 00:16:14,681 Speaker 3: Now. 287 00:16:15,401 --> 00:16:17,881 Speaker 1: I think the sixty four million dollar question in all 288 00:16:17,921 --> 00:16:23,041 Speaker 1: this is, given the overwhelming evidence that you've just laid 289 00:16:23,081 --> 00:16:27,761 Speaker 1: out there, why there wasn't a consideration of pleading guilty 290 00:16:27,881 --> 00:16:30,521 Speaker 1: or even pleading up to a lesser charge of manslaughter. 291 00:16:30,521 --> 00:16:33,441 Speaker 1: And we interviewed Philip Dunkc for the show. You can 292 00:16:33,481 --> 00:16:36,801 Speaker 1: find that in the archive, and he didn't say this directly, 293 00:16:36,881 --> 00:16:39,321 Speaker 1: but I got the idea from talking to him that 294 00:16:39,881 --> 00:16:43,801 Speaker 1: maybe he could have introduced the idea of pleading up. 295 00:16:44,401 --> 00:16:46,401 Speaker 1: And that was the reason she didn't go ahead with 296 00:16:46,481 --> 00:16:49,521 Speaker 1: him as her barrister in the trial. 297 00:16:51,401 --> 00:16:54,681 Speaker 4: Yes, and you and I both talked to lawyers and 298 00:16:55,001 --> 00:16:58,001 Speaker 4: it was definitely chatter around that as to why if 299 00:16:58,041 --> 00:17:00,641 Speaker 4: she had been convicted of manslaughter, she might have been 300 00:17:00,761 --> 00:17:04,001 Speaker 4: out in ten years rather than thirty. And you can 301 00:17:04,041 --> 00:17:07,121 Speaker 4: only speculate on that. I don't have the inside word 302 00:17:07,161 --> 00:17:09,881 Speaker 4: on it, but I can say that everything that I've 303 00:17:09,921 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 4: seen Patterson court, she didn't look like a person who 304 00:17:13,681 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 4: was going to admit to having killed those people. And 305 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:21,160 Speaker 4: so maybe it's just a simple case of I didn't 306 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:24,321 Speaker 4: do it. And look, maybe she even thinks that, you know, 307 00:17:24,441 --> 00:17:27,281 Speaker 4: she may be in that space where she's convinced herself 308 00:17:27,281 --> 00:17:30,081 Speaker 4: she didn't do it, or certainly literally I. 309 00:17:30,001 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 1: Mean you had a chance to look at her both 310 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:34,761 Speaker 1: in the box but also while listening to all the 311 00:17:35,001 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 1: damning evidence. Yes, and I think that's the way this 312 00:17:38,001 --> 00:17:40,881 Speaker 1: went around the world. There was a feeling that this person, 313 00:17:41,360 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: she must be deranged, delusional, completely crazy. But when you 314 00:17:45,561 --> 00:17:49,761 Speaker 1: look at her life to that point is cohesive. 315 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:50,601 Speaker 3: She's had a. 316 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:54,041 Speaker 1: Career, worked as an air traffic controller, meet Simon Pattison, 317 00:17:54,521 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 1: has the kids, raises her family, and gets to this 318 00:17:58,120 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 1: point where this mad act of revenge suddenly becomes a 319 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:06,321 Speaker 1: viable plan for her. What would you say about her 320 00:18:06,360 --> 00:18:08,721 Speaker 1: state of mind as you could observe it, both through 321 00:18:08,761 --> 00:18:10,161 Speaker 1: the evidence and observing her. 322 00:18:11,721 --> 00:18:15,360 Speaker 4: That's a really good question. I think that she's extremely 323 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:18,880 Speaker 4: odd and there could be a whole heap of things 324 00:18:18,921 --> 00:18:22,761 Speaker 4: going on in the background with her mind that she 325 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 4: doesn't understand and others don't understand. There was discussion around 326 00:18:27,921 --> 00:18:32,360 Speaker 4: her having Aspergers in pre sentence and the judge said, well, 327 00:18:32,360 --> 00:18:34,921 Speaker 4: it's basically there's not the evidence for her. But there 328 00:18:34,961 --> 00:18:37,801 Speaker 4: was a lot of chatter around that she claimed to 329 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:41,081 Speaker 4: her online friends that Chad Asperg's. Now. That doesn't make 330 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:44,321 Speaker 4: it kill three people, of course, but it might explain 331 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:48,360 Speaker 4: some of her oddness though, And she is strange. Like 332 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:52,521 Speaker 4: towards the end of the pre sentencing hearing a week ago, 333 00:18:52,921 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 4: she was meditating in the dock and look, you know, 334 00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:59,521 Speaker 4: she would have been completely distressed about what she was 335 00:18:59,561 --> 00:19:02,241 Speaker 4: looking at, and people can do odd things. But there 336 00:19:02,281 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 4: she was, eyes closed, you know, breathing, which she had 337 00:19:06,441 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 4: done Danny Morwle during the Supreme Court trial. So I 338 00:19:11,721 --> 00:19:15,761 Speaker 4: just I look at her and go, is she completely bad? 339 00:19:16,360 --> 00:19:19,961 Speaker 4: And that's the question. Quite possibly, Is she a little 340 00:19:19,961 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 4: bit mad? Quite possibly, that would be my I think 341 00:19:22,041 --> 00:19:23,921 Speaker 4: there's a mix of bad and a little bit mad, 342 00:19:23,961 --> 00:19:25,880 Speaker 4: would be my take on it. 343 00:19:25,921 --> 00:19:28,641 Speaker 1: Adam, Yeah, I think we're still trying to work out 344 00:19:28,681 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 1: mad or bad. I think if Asperger's was I voted 345 00:19:31,120 --> 00:19:33,041 Speaker 1: for murder, half our journal mates would be in jail 346 00:19:33,120 --> 00:19:37,801 Speaker 1: now for murdering people. So that doesn't necessarily provide an answer. 347 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:40,041 Speaker 1: One of the reasons we were talking today is that 348 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:42,041 Speaker 1: once you listened to Phil Done and you heard him 349 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:46,281 Speaker 1: talk about the media portrayal of Patterson, and he related 350 00:19:46,321 --> 00:19:50,120 Speaker 1: it to other famous female defendants in Australia where there 351 00:19:50,120 --> 00:19:53,680 Speaker 1: has arguably blend a rush to judge them based on 352 00:19:53,761 --> 00:19:57,120 Speaker 1: their demeanor, based on what they do or don't say. 353 00:19:57,921 --> 00:19:59,281 Speaker 3: Do you think that's fair? Do you think that? 354 00:19:59,721 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 1: And Phil Done the barrister said that there was an 355 00:20:03,281 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 1: archetype portrayed. She was the witch, the evil, the fat, evil, 356 00:20:08,281 --> 00:20:11,440 Speaker 1: murdering witch. How fair do you think that was in 357 00:20:11,521 --> 00:20:14,121 Speaker 1: terms of the way she was portrayed? And I guess 358 00:20:14,201 --> 00:20:16,920 Speaker 1: your impressions of her before the trial began. 359 00:20:18,481 --> 00:20:23,360 Speaker 4: No deepest respect for Philip's fantastic Bloken is a tremendous lawyer. 360 00:20:23,521 --> 00:20:27,160 Speaker 4: I don't think her appearance had anything to do with 361 00:20:27,281 --> 00:20:31,441 Speaker 4: any perceptions at all. I think, as we discussed privately, 362 00:20:31,561 --> 00:20:35,281 Speaker 4: I think had she been you know, like, it's sort 363 00:20:35,281 --> 00:20:37,761 Speaker 4: of the suggestion to me was that the story got 364 00:20:37,761 --> 00:20:40,001 Speaker 4: a life of its own because of the way Aaron 365 00:20:40,041 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 4: Patterson looked. Well, no, I mean an amazing story, but 366 00:20:42,961 --> 00:20:46,241 Speaker 4: it would have been even more amazing if she had 367 00:20:46,360 --> 00:20:50,481 Speaker 4: been a six foot Scandinavian model like that. Now, wat's 368 00:20:50,561 --> 00:20:53,640 Speaker 4: the story really go off? If that happened. So I 369 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:55,321 Speaker 4: don't think the looks really had much to do it. 370 00:20:55,400 --> 00:21:00,880 Speaker 4: I think though she defined herself in that first media 371 00:21:00,921 --> 00:21:04,120 Speaker 4: interview she did at her house where you know, she 372 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:06,961 Speaker 4: said I loved on and she confused who was dead 373 00:21:06,961 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 4: and who was alive. 374 00:21:09,360 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 3: That's devastated by what's happened, but the loss of Don 375 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:17,001 Speaker 3: is still in hospital. 376 00:21:17,041 --> 00:21:23,721 Speaker 4: Boughsome Ian and Heather and Gail. To me, I'm maybe 377 00:21:23,721 --> 00:21:26,441 Speaker 4: I'm a bit naive, but I thought she looked distressed 378 00:21:26,481 --> 00:21:29,880 Speaker 4: to me, but other people set afterwards that's really odden. 379 00:21:30,441 --> 00:21:33,961 Speaker 4: And the police, I know when they saw that interview 380 00:21:34,521 --> 00:21:37,281 Speaker 4: that they really they really clicked into that. They sort 381 00:21:37,281 --> 00:21:40,201 Speaker 4: of thought, oh, that's really strange response. And the suggestion 382 00:21:40,281 --> 00:21:42,481 Speaker 4: is she didn't actually have any tears when that happened. 383 00:21:42,721 --> 00:21:46,041 Speaker 4: I had really had an open mind, and because grief 384 00:21:46,120 --> 00:21:47,880 Speaker 4: is a weird thing, and you know that the Linda 385 00:21:48,001 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 4: Chamberlain thing about whether or not she was grieving when 386 00:21:51,120 --> 00:21:55,281 Speaker 4: it all started. Now, just a friend of mine actually 387 00:21:55,321 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 4: got the first interview with Lindy Chamberlain Michael and the 388 00:21:58,481 --> 00:22:01,880 Speaker 4: photograph of Zarah on the It was like a bassinette, 389 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:05,521 Speaker 4: remember lying back on the so and I spoke to 390 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:10,400 Speaker 4: him probably about six years after Lindy was child I 391 00:22:10,441 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 4: think it was in eighty two. So do you think 392 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,561 Speaker 4: Lindy did it? And his response was I'm not sure, 393 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:19,961 Speaker 4: which is really interesting because sometimes we just get overloaded 394 00:22:20,681 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 4: with information and it makes it hard. You know, it 395 00:22:23,681 --> 00:22:26,441 Speaker 4: just can swamp your mind. One thing I would say 396 00:22:27,120 --> 00:22:30,241 Speaker 4: for your listeners is that a lot of the evidence 397 00:22:30,241 --> 00:22:33,281 Speaker 4: that we talked about before wasn't heard by the jury. 398 00:22:33,681 --> 00:22:38,761 Speaker 4: So none of the allegations in relation to Simon's alleged 399 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,521 Speaker 4: attempts to kill him, for instance, was heard by the jury. 400 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:45,561 Speaker 4: So the jury didn't have the totality of the information 401 00:22:45,761 --> 00:22:49,441 Speaker 4: the jury had basically, and the defense had worked really cleverly. 402 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:53,841 Speaker 4: Colin Mandy s C. I think did a really he 403 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:56,001 Speaker 4: was very very good. He got quite a lot of 404 00:22:56,041 --> 00:22:58,880 Speaker 4: stuff struck out, so the jury didn't hear it. So 405 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 4: what the jury heard was a watered down version of 406 00:23:02,360 --> 00:23:04,961 Speaker 4: the totality of the evidence. So that made it pretty 407 00:23:05,041 --> 00:23:07,881 Speaker 4: interesting in a way down anymore, because those of us 408 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:10,161 Speaker 4: that sat through a pre trial knew a whole lot 409 00:23:10,241 --> 00:23:14,160 Speaker 4: more than the jury did. But you know, after seven 410 00:23:14,241 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 4: days was the jury going to convict? And I wasn't 411 00:23:16,681 --> 00:23:20,640 Speaker 4: necessarily convinced all of the jurors would fall that way. 412 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:21,681 Speaker 3: We'll get to that. 413 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,400 Speaker 1: It's interesting these defense barristers, they often bring up this 414 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:26,721 Speaker 1: thing about, oh, my client can't get a fair trial 415 00:23:26,761 --> 00:23:29,880 Speaker 1: because of perceptions and so forth. But of course when 416 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 1: they get up in jury trials, they say, there we 417 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 1: go the strength of the jury system once more. 418 00:23:34,521 --> 00:23:36,521 Speaker 3: They get it. And I think juries do get it right. 419 00:23:37,241 --> 00:23:40,441 Speaker 3: And you had a chance to view the jury. 420 00:23:40,120 --> 00:23:44,761 Speaker 1: And particularly as the courts dealing with the post offense 421 00:23:44,961 --> 00:23:49,281 Speaker 1: conduct the lies, which I think was the most stunning 422 00:23:49,321 --> 00:23:53,361 Speaker 1: evidence and also will probably ultimately weigh against her as 423 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,001 Speaker 1: she tries to get some sort of lenient sentence which 424 00:23:56,001 --> 00:23:59,561 Speaker 1: she won't because she had an opportunity to correct things, 425 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:04,281 Speaker 1: to tell the police, tell the hospital, while her loved 426 00:24:04,281 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 1: ones you could call them, were gravely ill what she'd done, 427 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:11,561 Speaker 1: but she chose not to. How important do you think 428 00:24:11,801 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 1: those lies were in her final. 429 00:24:14,761 --> 00:24:19,281 Speaker 4: I think utterly central. I think, you know, because having 430 00:24:19,481 --> 00:24:23,481 Speaker 4: listened to what everything that the jury did, some things 431 00:24:23,481 --> 00:24:27,321 Speaker 4: that I sort of thought, well, it's heavily circumstantial, For example, 432 00:24:27,761 --> 00:24:31,441 Speaker 4: the phone tower evidence, where I basically said she might 433 00:24:31,441 --> 00:24:34,401 Speaker 4: have been in these places like lock an outrum searching 434 00:24:34,481 --> 00:24:37,041 Speaker 4: for deathcap rushians. But I can tell you, Adam, she 435 00:24:37,120 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 4: might not have been too She could easily to me 436 00:24:39,961 --> 00:24:42,281 Speaker 4: that stuff like that sort of jarred with me a 437 00:24:42,321 --> 00:24:45,241 Speaker 4: little bit, I have to say. But the lies were 438 00:24:45,281 --> 00:24:49,400 Speaker 4: so breathtaking that you know, she got up before the 439 00:24:49,481 --> 00:24:52,960 Speaker 4: jury and said on the morning after the lunch she 440 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,681 Speaker 4: drove to our return trip and at one point went 441 00:24:56,721 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 4: off the side of the road and had explosive diarrhea 442 00:25:00,561 --> 00:25:05,921 Speaker 4: while she was wearing white pants. Right now, I camp 443 00:25:05,961 --> 00:25:07,801 Speaker 4: a lot. I could tell you that that that you 444 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:13,481 Speaker 4: white pant. No, I can if you want, but no, 445 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 4: and I've just got oh my god, and I know 446 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,001 Speaker 4: feel done. Thinks what does that mean, but those sorts 447 00:25:20,041 --> 00:25:22,561 Speaker 4: of things when you've got country people. Now this this 448 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 4: is another another point. So it was Patterson chose to 449 00:25:25,521 --> 00:25:29,401 Speaker 4: have the trial in Marble. The thing about country people's 450 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:35,041 Speaker 4: lot liars. Liars get nowhere because everyone knows the liar 451 00:25:35,120 --> 00:25:38,641 Speaker 4: the like once someone tells one lie, they will always 452 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,561 Speaker 4: be known in the community as a liar. This is 453 00:25:41,561 --> 00:25:45,480 Speaker 4: in country areas. Now that's your reputation, because if you're 454 00:25:45,481 --> 00:25:48,321 Speaker 4: the sort of person that would say, commit a fraud 455 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:52,160 Speaker 4: or whatever, that's your reputation. If you're steal twenty sheep, 456 00:25:52,521 --> 00:25:55,161 Speaker 4: you could go and help mother Teresa for twenty years, 457 00:25:55,201 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 4: you still always be the blokeer stole the marinos. So 458 00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:04,440 Speaker 4: and I think the jury, having been just exposed to 459 00:26:04,521 --> 00:26:07,561 Speaker 4: all these that were admitted to the outset, that just 460 00:26:07,721 --> 00:26:11,761 Speaker 4: would have smashed her credibility in their eyes. And there 461 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:14,761 Speaker 4: was a pretty dramatic moment when she was giving evidence 462 00:26:14,801 --> 00:26:19,001 Speaker 4: where it was introduced that she may have had bulimia 463 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:21,761 Speaker 4: or something like that and suffered that over the long term, 464 00:26:21,801 --> 00:26:26,680 Speaker 4: and that after the lunch guests left, she ate a 465 00:26:26,801 --> 00:26:32,321 Speaker 4: whole stack of Gail Patterson's orange cake and then purged afterwards. 466 00:26:32,360 --> 00:26:36,561 Speaker 4: Now it didn't seem at all real again and another 467 00:26:36,801 --> 00:26:41,321 Speaker 4: sort of in my mind anyway, a fake medical diagnosis 468 00:26:41,360 --> 00:26:44,801 Speaker 4: that she just made up. And I think the more 469 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,681 Speaker 4: the jury looked at that, the worse it got for her, 470 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:49,481 Speaker 4: you know, the benefit of the doubt. 471 00:26:51,281 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: Well, that's right, And I thought one of the dramatic 472 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:54,480 Speaker 1: moments I wasn't in the court at all, I have 473 00:26:54,481 --> 00:26:56,041 Speaker 1: to say, but one of the dramatic moments for me 474 00:26:56,281 --> 00:26:58,640 Speaker 1: was when Colin Mandy chose to put her on the stand. 475 00:26:59,201 --> 00:27:01,441 Speaker 1: In these cases, it's up to the crown to prove 476 00:27:01,481 --> 00:27:04,721 Speaker 1: their case, not for the defense to disprove it, so 477 00:27:05,120 --> 00:27:08,801 Speaker 1: there was a calculated risk there, and I think she 478 00:27:08,961 --> 00:27:11,801 Speaker 1: did reasonably well. I think there were some people thinking 479 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 1: she would just break down and it'd be so obvious. 480 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,400 Speaker 1: But how did you rate her performance in the box? 481 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,241 Speaker 4: I just didn't think they would put her up and 482 00:27:21,241 --> 00:27:23,801 Speaker 4: from everything that I knew, and I think she performed 483 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:27,120 Speaker 4: eight out of ten compared with what I expected. I 484 00:27:27,120 --> 00:27:31,561 Speaker 4: thought she would fall apart pretty quickly and that didn't happen. 485 00:27:31,681 --> 00:27:36,360 Speaker 4: But her credibility was eroded by her lies they you see, 486 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:40,680 Speaker 4: So yeah, I was surprised how well she did invert 487 00:27:40,721 --> 00:27:44,801 Speaker 4: a commas clearly not that well because she's in Dane 488 00:27:44,801 --> 00:27:47,680 Speaker 4: Field's frost. But yeah, I think she did better than 489 00:27:47,721 --> 00:27:50,920 Speaker 4: I thought she would, is my Yeah, I suppose my 490 00:27:51,001 --> 00:27:52,161 Speaker 4: answer right. 491 00:27:52,241 --> 00:27:55,640 Speaker 1: So you're sitting there, you had the pre trial proceedings, 492 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,640 Speaker 1: you got the nine week trial. What's it like covering 493 00:27:58,961 --> 00:28:01,401 Speaker 1: that sort of a case? And over the journey did 494 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:03,721 Speaker 1: your impressions change at all? With there were moments where 495 00:28:03,761 --> 00:28:07,440 Speaker 1: you doubt any earlier impressions or was it tended to 496 00:28:07,441 --> 00:28:10,521 Speaker 1: be a situation where they were being reinforced as it 497 00:28:10,561 --> 00:28:11,041 Speaker 1: went along. 498 00:28:12,801 --> 00:28:16,120 Speaker 4: No, I think because a lot of key evidence was 499 00:28:16,201 --> 00:28:20,281 Speaker 4: excluded from the trial. To me, that changed the way 500 00:28:20,321 --> 00:28:21,960 Speaker 4: I looked at it because you have to look at 501 00:28:22,001 --> 00:28:24,640 Speaker 4: it what the jury's hearing, not what you know or 502 00:28:24,681 --> 00:28:26,561 Speaker 4: you think you know. Journal as we think we know everything. 503 00:28:26,561 --> 00:28:28,281 Speaker 4: We don't know everything, but we often think we do. 504 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:33,921 Speaker 4: So you're listening to what the jury's hearing my take 505 00:28:34,001 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 4: on it, and I said, this is done recentably well 506 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,281 Speaker 4: known in the dying sort of moments before the jury 507 00:28:41,321 --> 00:28:43,681 Speaker 4: came back, I thought it would be hung because I 508 00:28:43,721 --> 00:28:46,401 Speaker 4: just thought there would be an overwhelming majority would go 509 00:28:46,721 --> 00:28:49,561 Speaker 4: it's guilty, But then there'd be a smaller smallish rump 510 00:28:49,641 --> 00:28:52,601 Speaker 4: of people would go, ah, well, I think there's enough 511 00:28:52,641 --> 00:28:55,481 Speaker 4: doubt there for me. So that was where my head 512 00:28:55,561 --> 00:28:55,881 Speaker 4: was at. 513 00:28:56,321 --> 00:28:59,561 Speaker 1: Yeah, because often in these long term trials, the media 514 00:28:59,641 --> 00:29:03,321 Speaker 1: forms are kind of relationship with the jury. You're looking 515 00:29:03,361 --> 00:29:06,161 Speaker 1: at their reactions to things as you go, they're looking 516 00:29:06,201 --> 00:29:08,881 Speaker 1: at you, and there's a kind of relationship going on. 517 00:29:09,041 --> 00:29:10,561 Speaker 3: Describe what that's like in this trip. 518 00:29:12,761 --> 00:29:16,401 Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, you obviously try not to. You just want 519 00:29:16,441 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 4: to know, I suppose very carefully, because you're just sitting 520 00:29:20,281 --> 00:29:23,601 Speaker 4: there wanting to know, well, getting a feel for where 521 00:29:23,601 --> 00:29:26,161 Speaker 4: you think the jury is at. It's impossible not to 522 00:29:26,321 --> 00:29:30,481 Speaker 4: do that, and to listen how to the way they speak, 523 00:29:30,561 --> 00:29:33,561 Speaker 4: and you get a feel for where you think people 524 00:29:33,601 --> 00:29:37,561 Speaker 4: are going by their responses, like if, for instance, there's 525 00:29:38,761 --> 00:29:40,641 Speaker 4: looks on faces and all that sort of stuff. I mean, 526 00:29:40,681 --> 00:29:43,841 Speaker 4: it's very precise, like you've got absolutely no idea. It's 527 00:29:43,881 --> 00:29:46,281 Speaker 4: like the old saying about you don't know what's going 528 00:29:46,321 --> 00:29:49,561 Speaker 4: on inside someone's head or behind their bedroom door. And 529 00:29:49,681 --> 00:29:51,081 Speaker 4: it's the same thing with the jury. 530 00:29:51,121 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 3: People. 531 00:29:51,721 --> 00:29:54,561 Speaker 4: I remember during the Pell case, people were coming back 532 00:29:54,601 --> 00:29:57,121 Speaker 4: with these detailed analysis are where the jury was at 533 00:29:57,241 --> 00:30:01,001 Speaker 4: and well no, so I think, yeah, it's a bit fraud. 534 00:30:01,041 --> 00:30:04,241 Speaker 4: But yeah, you're sort of interested because you get bored 535 00:30:04,241 --> 00:30:06,681 Speaker 4: as well at him. It's a long time to be 536 00:30:06,761 --> 00:30:09,480 Speaker 4: sitting listening to the same evidence. A lot of the 537 00:30:09,481 --> 00:30:11,801 Speaker 4: evis you've heard before, so you get bored. You look around, 538 00:30:11,801 --> 00:30:14,281 Speaker 4: you want to know what everyone's You sort of get 539 00:30:14,281 --> 00:30:18,801 Speaker 4: a view of almost everyone in the court, including Aaron Patterson, 540 00:30:18,841 --> 00:30:22,041 Speaker 4: who had to put up with people gawking at her 541 00:30:22,121 --> 00:30:26,241 Speaker 4: the whole time. It's brutal the legal system. It's brutal, 542 00:30:26,641 --> 00:30:30,361 Speaker 4: and I get it why defense lawyers get protective of 543 00:30:30,441 --> 00:30:33,761 Speaker 4: their clients, because it is just brutal what the defendants 544 00:30:33,761 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 4: go through. And I know quite a bit, quite a 545 00:30:36,241 --> 00:30:40,881 Speaker 4: lot about the Victorian prison system. It always you know, 546 00:30:41,041 --> 00:30:46,321 Speaker 4: you just want the jury gets it right because prisoner's prison. 547 00:30:46,801 --> 00:30:48,281 Speaker 4: There's no fun to be had. 548 00:30:48,561 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 1: Oh no, she's going to do it very tough in 549 00:30:50,001 --> 00:30:52,641 Speaker 1: their first offender. She's very arrogant in titled. People will 550 00:30:52,681 --> 00:30:54,281 Speaker 1: sort her out. I think she will have to spend 551 00:30:54,281 --> 00:30:57,041 Speaker 1: a lot of time in seclusion there. It'll be tough 552 00:30:57,081 --> 00:30:58,961 Speaker 1: for her. And she's she's not going to see the 553 00:30:59,001 --> 00:31:01,761 Speaker 1: lot of the least until she's eighty. So this is 554 00:31:01,801 --> 00:31:06,521 Speaker 1: the what a disaster, blown up everything, up everything. I mean, 555 00:31:06,921 --> 00:31:09,241 Speaker 1: you have sat through these long term trials, and you've 556 00:31:09,281 --> 00:31:12,601 Speaker 1: also you also feel the gravity of what's happened. As 557 00:31:12,641 --> 00:31:15,440 Speaker 1: a journal you're hearing the evidence, you're hearing the technical evidence, 558 00:31:15,481 --> 00:31:18,281 Speaker 1: the forensic evidence of what was done to these people, 559 00:31:18,681 --> 00:31:24,081 Speaker 1: and you start to naturally your view hardens against the defendant. 560 00:31:24,561 --> 00:31:27,321 Speaker 1: But were there any moments in this proceeding where you 561 00:31:27,441 --> 00:31:30,761 Speaker 1: felt some sympathy for her, or some empathy at least. 562 00:31:31,721 --> 00:31:31,921 Speaker 3: Oh? 563 00:31:32,001 --> 00:31:34,401 Speaker 4: Look, I have to say there was a couple of things. 564 00:31:34,441 --> 00:31:36,960 Speaker 4: One was that really graphic photo of her in the 565 00:31:37,001 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 4: back of the prison van that was the defining picture 566 00:31:40,441 --> 00:31:44,601 Speaker 4: of the trial that the AFP photographer took, very very unflattering. 567 00:31:45,041 --> 00:31:50,841 Speaker 4: Photographer sort of thought, aren't that's that's brutal. I have 568 00:31:50,961 --> 00:31:56,521 Speaker 4: to say last Monday in hearing, what we saw on 569 00:31:56,601 --> 00:32:01,601 Speaker 4: Monday was a completely destroyed person and in my mind 570 00:32:01,881 --> 00:32:05,921 Speaker 4: just looks totally destroyed. And she's clearly in what the 571 00:32:06,081 --> 00:32:10,601 Speaker 4: judge described as what seemed to be unsatisfactory conditions at 572 00:32:10,681 --> 00:32:13,361 Speaker 4: Dane Phillips Frost that she's basically not seeing the light 573 00:32:13,401 --> 00:32:15,881 Speaker 4: of the day or maybe an hour a day out. 574 00:32:15,921 --> 00:32:18,681 Speaker 4: I mean that just destroys people, So I feel sorry 575 00:32:18,761 --> 00:32:23,001 Speaker 4: for anyone who's in that predicament. Sure she inflicted terrible 576 00:32:23,561 --> 00:32:27,041 Speaker 4: pain on the people before they died, but I don't know. Yeah, 577 00:32:27,121 --> 00:32:29,361 Speaker 4: I feel compassion. I've spent a lot of time in 578 00:32:29,361 --> 00:32:35,801 Speaker 4: the prisons several to know that as the resident mind you, No, no, 579 00:32:35,881 --> 00:32:43,081 Speaker 4: not yet, but I'm sure he'll catch me at some point. 580 00:32:43,121 --> 00:32:45,601 Speaker 1: On your Facebook it does say often excessive, I. 581 00:32:45,521 --> 00:32:46,081 Speaker 3: Think, doesn't it. 582 00:32:46,121 --> 00:32:49,641 Speaker 4: So that's that's the thing. 583 00:32:49,761 --> 00:32:49,960 Speaker 3: You know. 584 00:32:50,801 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 4: I'm very old school, so I'm probably probably one of 585 00:32:53,481 --> 00:32:55,921 Speaker 4: the last of the old school. Well you're me, you're 586 00:32:56,001 --> 00:32:58,641 Speaker 4: me both really five? 587 00:32:58,721 --> 00:32:59,561 Speaker 3: I was one year later. 588 00:32:59,601 --> 00:33:01,921 Speaker 1: I think you must have become you're about twelve, you know, 589 00:33:02,081 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 1: child labor in the rippet Medley. 590 00:33:04,161 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 3: But you're still going. Well it was fantastic. 591 00:33:06,761 --> 00:33:08,361 Speaker 4: Five am to five pm mate. 592 00:33:09,001 --> 00:33:09,721 Speaker 3: Yeah. 593 00:33:09,921 --> 00:33:13,961 Speaker 1: The moment for me in the pre sentence hearing was 594 00:33:13,961 --> 00:33:15,961 Speaker 1: when Ian Wilkinson got up there and he was doing 595 00:33:15,961 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 1: his victim impact statement and he talked about giving her 596 00:33:20,281 --> 00:33:23,401 Speaker 1: the offer of forgiveness if she makes a confession, and 597 00:33:23,481 --> 00:33:26,121 Speaker 1: his quote was, my prayer for her is if you 598 00:33:26,121 --> 00:33:28,601 Speaker 1: will use her time in jail wisely to become a 599 00:33:28,641 --> 00:33:33,161 Speaker 1: better person. Now I'm no longer Aaron Patterson's victim, and 600 00:33:33,201 --> 00:33:35,841 Speaker 1: she's become a victim of my kindness. 601 00:33:36,321 --> 00:33:36,641 Speaker 3: Wow. 602 00:33:36,921 --> 00:33:41,761 Speaker 4: Heavy, yeah, really heavy. It was at another moment during 603 00:33:42,081 --> 00:33:44,441 Speaker 4: the moral trial for me, was when Nan Wilkinson walked 604 00:33:44,481 --> 00:33:48,401 Speaker 4: in to give evidence. He turned over, turned around and 605 00:33:48,401 --> 00:33:52,281 Speaker 4: looked straight at Aaron Patterson on the way in. It 606 00:33:51,641 --> 00:33:55,241 Speaker 4: was it was a very it was understandably a look 607 00:33:55,281 --> 00:33:58,561 Speaker 4: of disdain. He's a man who's been who's had his 608 00:33:58,601 --> 00:34:02,881 Speaker 4: life beyond upended. And I thought I thought his choice 609 00:34:02,881 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 4: of words were really interesting because he was basically saying, 610 00:34:05,601 --> 00:34:08,601 Speaker 4: I forgive you, but I really makes it harder for you, 611 00:34:08,721 --> 00:34:12,921 Speaker 4: not easier. And there was a really interesting peace on 612 00:34:13,201 --> 00:34:16,641 Speaker 4: seventh Spotlight the other night with the bloke from Western 613 00:34:16,681 --> 00:34:20,481 Speaker 4: Sydney who killed those four kids several years ago as 614 00:34:20,481 --> 00:34:24,561 Speaker 4: a driver, and the father came in and has pledged 615 00:34:24,601 --> 00:34:29,921 Speaker 4: total forgiveness. What Ian Wilkinson did wasn't as nearly as 616 00:34:29,921 --> 00:34:34,441 Speaker 4: strong as that. He was a man who's clearly just 617 00:34:34,801 --> 00:34:38,841 Speaker 4: devastated by what's happened, loved his wife, loved Don and 618 00:34:38,881 --> 00:34:41,761 Speaker 4: Gale Patterson. And you know, you'd have to give him 619 00:34:42,121 --> 00:34:45,681 Speaker 4: eleven out of ten for his victim impact statement. And 620 00:34:45,721 --> 00:34:48,601 Speaker 4: you'd give him twenty out of ten for his resilience 621 00:34:48,601 --> 00:34:50,641 Speaker 4: for turning up every day and marble to court. He 622 00:34:50,761 --> 00:34:52,401 Speaker 4: was pretty astonishing really. 623 00:34:53,961 --> 00:34:55,401 Speaker 3: Anyway. You're a sporting gentleman. 624 00:34:55,681 --> 00:34:58,161 Speaker 1: But I don't think you're going to get odds, decent 625 00:34:58,201 --> 00:35:00,561 Speaker 1: odds that she's going to get anything less than the 626 00:35:00,641 --> 00:35:01,201 Speaker 1: full whack. 627 00:35:01,521 --> 00:35:03,441 Speaker 3: What's your prediction for the sentence. 628 00:35:05,521 --> 00:35:08,641 Speaker 4: I think my prediction is she will get a non 629 00:35:08,641 --> 00:35:12,521 Speaker 4: parole period. I think the judge is really unhappy with 630 00:35:13,281 --> 00:35:16,601 Speaker 4: the conditions that Aaron Patterson has been kept in and 631 00:35:17,401 --> 00:35:19,361 Speaker 4: I think there'll be a little bit of a discount. 632 00:35:19,681 --> 00:35:21,601 Speaker 4: I think he'll give her a little bit of glimmer 633 00:35:21,601 --> 00:35:26,161 Speaker 4: of something, but she'll she'll do the minimum thirty. She's 634 00:35:26,201 --> 00:35:29,641 Speaker 4: not going to walk quickly. And the problem she has, Adam, 635 00:35:29,881 --> 00:35:34,241 Speaker 4: and you'd know this that with poisoning intent is writ 636 00:35:34,601 --> 00:35:37,601 Speaker 4: large because you've got to go out and source the mushrooms. 637 00:35:37,641 --> 00:35:40,121 Speaker 4: You've got to put them in the dehydrated, you've got 638 00:35:40,161 --> 00:35:42,241 Speaker 4: to cut them up, you've got to going by the steak, 639 00:35:42,561 --> 00:35:45,241 Speaker 4: you've got to go and get the pastry. You've got 640 00:35:45,241 --> 00:35:49,641 Speaker 4: to at so many points, as Ruth Dubois, who is 641 00:35:49,681 --> 00:35:52,881 Speaker 4: Aman Wilkinson's daughter said at so many points she had 642 00:35:52,921 --> 00:35:56,801 Speaker 4: months where she could have called this ridiculous plot off, 643 00:35:56,921 --> 00:36:00,241 Speaker 4: but she didn't, and it was interesting. There was another 644 00:36:00,281 --> 00:36:03,041 Speaker 4: interesting moment when Ruth Duboire said that she had months 645 00:36:03,081 --> 00:36:06,801 Speaker 4: to call this off. Aaron Patterson just shook her head slightly, 646 00:36:07,441 --> 00:36:10,521 Speaker 4: you know, And that to me suggests that Aaron Patterson 647 00:36:10,561 --> 00:36:13,641 Speaker 4: doesn't think either she doesn't think she did it deliberately, 648 00:36:13,921 --> 00:36:17,361 Speaker 4: or it was an accident, or I think that's probably 649 00:36:17,401 --> 00:36:18,921 Speaker 4: where Aaron Patterson's head is at. 650 00:36:19,601 --> 00:36:21,721 Speaker 1: John Ferguson, thank you so much for your time today. 651 00:36:21,721 --> 00:36:25,001 Speaker 1: It's been fascinating to get that inside view of this 652 00:36:25,121 --> 00:36:26,161 Speaker 1: extraordinary proceeding. 653 00:36:26,161 --> 00:36:26,721 Speaker 3: And I think you're right. 654 00:36:26,761 --> 00:36:30,921 Speaker 1: The lack of contrition, the lack of taking those opportunities 655 00:36:30,961 --> 00:36:33,401 Speaker 1: to turn away from this plot. I mean, we've all 656 00:36:33,441 --> 00:36:36,801 Speaker 1: had moments of thinking about revenge against people who wronged us. 657 00:36:36,801 --> 00:36:39,241 Speaker 1: But in the light of day, you say, oh goodness, 658 00:36:39,361 --> 00:36:41,921 Speaker 1: the consequences, and you look at the consequences in this 659 00:36:41,961 --> 00:36:45,921 Speaker 1: person's life and you say, wow, unbelievable. 660 00:36:46,961 --> 00:36:50,521 Speaker 4: And this very quickly. And what makes it this story 661 00:36:50,561 --> 00:36:54,641 Speaker 4: so compelling, is that she is very well educated, came 662 00:36:54,721 --> 00:36:58,801 Speaker 4: from a very well educated family, She was a multi millionaire. 663 00:36:59,401 --> 00:37:02,921 Speaker 4: She had a you know, not a house I'd built, 664 00:37:02,921 --> 00:37:06,441 Speaker 4: but it was a really nice house in Gaffa. She 665 00:37:06,561 --> 00:37:11,161 Speaker 4: had two kids living with She had more than ninety 666 00:37:11,201 --> 00:37:13,561 Speaker 4: nine percent of the world on her side, and then 667 00:37:14,481 --> 00:37:17,041 Speaker 4: here you were talking about how she kills three people. 668 00:37:18,481 --> 00:37:21,721 Speaker 3: Yeah, unbelievable. Thanks your time, John, Thank you. 669 00:37:22,881 --> 00:37:25,881 Speaker 1: That's John Ferguson of The Australian there on Aaron Patterson 670 00:37:26,361 --> 00:37:30,241 Speaker 1: and her disastrous decision to murder her in laws. What 671 00:37:30,281 --> 00:37:32,401 Speaker 1: did you think as you watch this thing go through? 672 00:37:32,401 --> 00:37:33,841 Speaker 1: Do you think she got a fair trial? A lot 673 00:37:33,841 --> 00:37:35,961 Speaker 1: to hear from you, but your thoughts on this you 674 00:37:35,961 --> 00:37:38,521 Speaker 1: can send me an email at Adam Shanned writer at 675 00:37:38,521 --> 00:37:41,081 Speaker 1: gmail dot com. You also send me stories send him 676 00:37:41,121 --> 00:37:43,641 Speaker 1: there before John Ferguson gets them. By the way, he's 677 00:37:43,641 --> 00:37:46,721 Speaker 1: a snoop master, this fella. But thanks for joining us today. 678 00:37:47,241 --> 00:37:49,201 Speaker 1: If you have any information about a crime, make sure 679 00:37:49,241 --> 00:37:51,241 Speaker 1: you call crime Stoppers one. It had a triple three, 680 00:37:51,321 --> 00:37:54,281 Speaker 1: triple zero. This has been real crime with Adam Shann 681 00:37:54,361 --> 00:37:55,121 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening.