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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life the average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Today I had a conversation. I wish it wasn't necessary,

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Speaker 1: but there's something I think we need to talk about today.

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Speaker 1: I sat down with Emily Olie and Douglas Smith. They

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Speaker 1: both hosts of a podcast series called Diane Rose and

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Speaker 1: the authors of a book of the same name. We

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Speaker 1: talked about how families of Indigenous women found to cease

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Speaker 1: were routinely let down by those responsible for finding out

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Speaker 1: what happened.

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Speaker 2: To them.

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Speaker 1: I thought this was a thing of the past, but

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Speaker 1: it's still happening and it needs to stop.

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Speaker 2: This is a conversation.

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Speaker 1: This is a different location for an Eye Catch Killers podcast.

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Speaker 1: We're on the floor of the Advertiser newspaper down here

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Speaker 1: in Adelaide. Before I start, I'm just going to read

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Speaker 1: out a listener warning and the podcast addresses sensitive topics,

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Speaker 1: including murder and suicide, specifically of Indigenous women in Australia.

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Speaker 1: We recognize that these discussions can be deeply distressing.

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Speaker 2: And may evoke strong emotions.

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Speaker 1: Okay, a police officer has told an inquest she would

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Speaker 1: have now done several things differently from when she investigated

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Speaker 1: the death of a mother discovered being eaten by dogs.

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Speaker 1: That's an extract from a media report of an inquest

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Speaker 1: that's been held as we speak into the death of Lassange.

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Speaker 2: You're done in Wilkenia.

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Speaker 1: These are the type of things that we raised when

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Speaker 1: we last spoke, and you covered in your podcast series

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Speaker 1: of Dime Rows and covered in your book A Dime Rows.

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Speaker 1: Does it shock you that the police officer, the officer

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Speaker 1: in charge is making those type of comments.

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Speaker 3: Yes and no. I guess no, because I mean as

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Speaker 3: an Indigenous person myself, I kind of expect it that,

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Speaker 3: you know, but at the same time it kind of

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Speaker 3: tells me that the system is still flawed. You know,

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Speaker 3: when we talk about, you know, what came out of

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Speaker 3: Barabal years ago, and then also when we look at

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Speaker 3: this and then we look at all the recommendations. You

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Speaker 3: can have so many recommendations that come out of an

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Speaker 3: inquest or a parliamentary inquiry or whatever that is. But

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Speaker 3: at the end of the day, if there's not a

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Speaker 3: change on the ground, and you can have these recommendations,

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Speaker 3: you can see that over the years, you know that

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Speaker 3: nothing really does change to the extent that it should.

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Speaker 3: You know, did you his voices still feel drowned out

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Speaker 3: in these these cases and in these situations. As you know,

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Speaker 3: we don't have any indigenous homicide detectives. We don't have

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Speaker 3: those you know, indigenous people working closely with homicide or

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Speaker 3: you have those Indigenous community aison officers, and you know,

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Speaker 3: we can teach you know, stuff of indigenous culture in

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Speaker 3: police forces, in any organization or an institution. But at

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Speaker 3: the end of the day, I think, you know, when

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Speaker 3: we look at having more Indigenous people in I guess

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Speaker 3: homicide itself or something like that that might make a change.

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Speaker 3: But I don't feel like they listen to us and

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Speaker 3: our recommendations or any of those cranial inquest, parliamentary inquiries,

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Speaker 3: whatever you'll say, said inquiries, and none of it really

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Speaker 3: matters if it doesn't actually, you know, take if it's

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Speaker 3: not taken seriously, because we'll continue to see what we

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Speaker 3: continue to see now.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, not ticking and flicking.

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Speaker 4: I think, I mean for us, it's unsurprising because it's

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Speaker 4: what Keith was telling us three years ago understad. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: when we first spoke to him. His concerns were that

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Speaker 4: the right questions hadn't been asked, that the right people

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Speaker 4: hadn't been questioned, that the investigation felt not properly supported,

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Speaker 4: that it felt rushed. So I think to hear that

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Speaker 4: stuff come out more formally in court by the people

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Speaker 4: who were involved is unsurprising because it is It's what

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Speaker 4: he said.

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Speaker 1: And here it is a playing out in an inquest

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Speaker 1: trying to find out what's happened. I'm sad and I'm

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Speaker 1: sitting here speaking to you guys, and I say that

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Speaker 1: with the greatest respect, but I'd like not to be

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Speaker 1: having these discussions. I'd like to think that on the

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Speaker 1: back of you identifying the issues that you saw in

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Speaker 1: Dying Rows and things that have happened in the past,

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Speaker 1: that we've learnt, we've changed, we've evolved, and these type

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Speaker 1: of things wouldn't happen, but seeing it play out in

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Speaker 1: the inquest contemporary lo it just brings it back to

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Speaker 1: the fact that, okay, we still still haven't got it right.

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Speaker 1: Just for the listeners, and I have had you guys

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Speaker 1: on the podcast before, but just put in the perspective

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Speaker 1: how you became involved in the Dime Rope Rose Project,

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Speaker 1: which is a podcast series and also a recently released book.

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Speaker 4: I mean that story began an International Women's Day of

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Speaker 4: All Days, which was you know, our editor Jemma Jones

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Speaker 4: went to an event and Courtney Hunter Heaberman is a

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Speaker 4: mother and she was speaking at the event and she said,

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Speaker 4: she gave her welcome to country and she said, if

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Speaker 4: you think it's hard being a white woman in Australia,

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Speaker 4: try being a black woman. And I think Gemma was

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Speaker 4: just really captured by that, and she approached Courtney after

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Speaker 4: and you know, kind of disasked her what's that all about?

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Speaker 4: And Courtney's daughter Rose had died in twenty nineteen in

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Speaker 4: what Courtney believed were circumstances that she didn't feel were

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Speaker 4: properly investigated, and that sort of center on this. That

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Speaker 4: was the first case, and that's what we started investigating.

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Speaker 4: And as we investigated, Courtney put us in touch with

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Speaker 4: another mom whose daughter had died in circumstances she didn't

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Speaker 4: feel we're properly investigated, and then another one, and then

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Speaker 4: another family got in touch with Doug.

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Speaker 3: For me, it started. I used to work at National

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Speaker 3: Indigenous Television and a colleague of mine, Diana, she'd been

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Speaker 3: talking to Keith about like, you know, shortly after his

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Speaker 3: daughter passed away. So now after she was found, my

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Speaker 3: colleague had been speaking to Keith and she needed someone

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Speaker 3: with her to go to will Kenya, and you know,

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Speaker 3: I put my hand up and I was like, let's

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Speaker 3: do it. And that was back in twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 3: probably in March. It was a month after that, and

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Speaker 3: that's when I first went there. It kind of felt

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Speaker 3: from the start that this was, you know, a story

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Speaker 3: that would you know, follow me in my career until

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Speaker 3: we get some sort of answers for the family. And

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Speaker 3: here we are.

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Speaker 4: Three years later, we ended up with these six cases

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Speaker 4: that went hugely similar in the concerns that the families

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Speaker 4: had about police not properly looking into, in their eyes,

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Speaker 4: the circumstances of these really horrible, tragic deaths of their daughters.

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Speaker 2: You see that more more than the coincidence.

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Speaker 1: Like we're talking so six indigenous Indigenous women and the

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Speaker 1: families all had the same concerns.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and like some of their concerns is that the

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Speaker 3: way the police behavior, I guess, responding to their situation.

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Speaker 3: Whether it's a death in Indigenous communities, it's anything really,

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Speaker 3: but particularly in these cases obviously it's it's death. So

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Speaker 3: the way that the police had responded to these families,

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Speaker 3: it's quite I don't know what to say put into

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Speaker 3: words really. In one case, you know that there was

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Speaker 3: it was rules like, you know, the family were comfortable

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Speaker 3: that it was a suicide, but the police got there

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Speaker 3: instead of helping the family, the arrested the brother and

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Speaker 3: bashed him like it was bad while while the daughter

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Speaker 3: was on the ground getting resuscitated. Those you know, response

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Speaker 3: to police have for our communities just terrible at times. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I think.

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Speaker 4: That's kind of what, you know, these were six cases,

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Speaker 4: but we were only scratching the surface of as was shown.

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Speaker 4: You know, there was a sent inquiry into missing in

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Speaker 4: murdered First Nations women and children that you were part of,

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Speaker 4: and you know we learned of that inquiry through our

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Speaker 4: two year investigation into all of these cases. It became

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Speaker 4: clearer and clearer that this wasn't just isolated incidents of police,

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Speaker 4: you know, maybe one officer not looking properly into something.

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Speaker 4: It was a systemic issue that these families and the

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Speaker 4: families who gave evidence to the inquiry, and huge amounts

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Speaker 4: of other families that we didn't speak to, as Doug says,

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Speaker 4: felt was a systemic approach from police towards Indigenous people

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Speaker 4: in lots of circumstances, as you say, but particularly when

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Speaker 4: it comes to death that they felt were suspicious.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's talk about la Sonya's case. Can you give

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Speaker 1: us a background to the circumstances in which Lasnya disappeared

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Speaker 1: and where.

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Speaker 2: She was found.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So Lasnya, you know, thirty one year old bark

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Speaker 3: and gy woman from will Kenya in central western New

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Speaker 3: South Wales.

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Speaker 5: She was on foing discovered on March twenty ninth, so yeah.

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Speaker 3: So four days before that, right, So it was a Friday,

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Speaker 3: and she'd been having a few drinks with her two

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Speaker 3: close cousins. They were in this place like in will Kenya,

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Speaker 3: just it's called the they're called it the safe house,

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Speaker 3: so it's where women are usually live for scape domestic

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Speaker 3: violence or whatever. And she was there and sitting down

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Speaker 3: during the day having a drink. She's taken off at

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Speaker 3: about by thirty six o'clock in the afternoon. She's walked

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Speaker 3: away and she said to all of her family last

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Speaker 3: years later, my mom, my family are catches tomorrow. And

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Speaker 3: she says she was going home, but she went and

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Speaker 3: no one saw her after that. Apparently on that night

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Speaker 3: she was seen in another house in the Malley that's

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Speaker 3: a part of the community where you know, mostly Indigenous

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Speaker 3: people live. She was seeing at another house with someone

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Speaker 3: and they were drinking and then they were there to

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Speaker 3: the late hours of the night and they've taken off.

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Speaker 3: No one's seen them after that. So she's taken off

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Speaker 3: Friday night, no one's seen her on Saturday, no one's

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Speaker 3: seen her on Sunday, Monday, and then on Tuesday, Tuesday morning,

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Speaker 3: at about ten o'clock that's when her body was discovered

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Speaker 3: in the backyard of her own home. And like I

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Speaker 3: said before, it was just meters away from the back door,

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Speaker 3: the back kitchen window, right next to the clothesline, and

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Speaker 3: up into this yard. And this yard is it's actually

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Speaker 3: where she was found, is probably two three meters away

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Speaker 3: from a backway path that people just use, like they

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Speaker 3: don't even live in that house. I just use that path.

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Speaker 3: They like walk through to the next street so they

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Speaker 3: don't got to go the whole way around. So that

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Speaker 3: yard is constantly visited throughout the day. And it's loss

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Speaker 3: only his grandmother's house, none of norm you know, she's

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Speaker 3: a big matriarch there for the family.

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Speaker 2: People have dropping people dropped in and gave a.

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Speaker 3: Cuppa, you know, sit down, have a yarn. That's where

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Speaker 3: a lot of people go. And it's just yeah, for

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Speaker 3: the whole community. It's like, well, I'm pretty sure she

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Speaker 3: wasn't there yesterday, and I'm pretty sure she wasn't there

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Speaker 3: the day before. How is she there today?

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Speaker 2: And I asked how her body was found that.

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Speaker 3: It had an electrical cable wrapped around her neck. It

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Speaker 3: was an Xbox three sixty cord like an audio visual

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Speaker 3: AV cord and I think like she was. She was

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Speaker 3: found with that wrapped around her neck. She was in

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Speaker 3: an advanced state of decomposition. So she'd been dead for

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Speaker 3: about all they said around four days, three to four

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Speaker 3: days because of the state of her body. And yeah,

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Speaker 3: so she had been laying there for that long, and

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Speaker 3: there were dogs chewing at her, and she'd been missing

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Speaker 3: some limbs, and you know, it looks like they've been

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Speaker 3: there a while. And you know when her uncle, her

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Speaker 3: uncle just walked in the backyard one morning and just

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Speaker 3: found her there and he was, like, he told me,

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Speaker 3: he goes, I thought it was a kangaroo at first,

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Speaker 3: but then I looked again and he goes, you know,

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Speaker 3: don't I realize it wasn't a kangaroo. It was it

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Speaker 3: was my niece. And he was just screaming his head off.

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Speaker 1: What I can imagine how horrific it would have been

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Speaker 1: before him was she reported missing, before her body was found,

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Speaker 1: anyone made the inquiries, where where was she living?

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Speaker 2: Where was she.

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Speaker 3: Change she was at that house where she was found

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Speaker 3: in like will Kenya, you know, and even I asked.

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Speaker 1: That question provocatively because I want you to explain that

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Speaker 1: because people will be young. But yeah, if she didn't

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Speaker 1: come home, but explain the community.

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Speaker 3: In will Kenya, in my community as well, if I

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Speaker 3: went missing for a couple of days, like, oh, he's

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Speaker 3: probably just over at cousin's house doing something, you know,

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Speaker 3: like he's just staying there. Like we don't think of

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Speaker 3: it in that manner, like we don't think of it like, oh,

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Speaker 3: something really bad is wrong here, like something is really

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Speaker 3: wrong here. And I could see how the family didn't

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Speaker 3: see that straight away, because you know, will Kenya is like,

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Speaker 3: you know, she might be off at cousin's house or

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Speaker 3: they went down to the river, or they were doing

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Speaker 3: something like that's just normal for outback country life, you know.

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Speaker 3: And so in this case, it's like, no, she wasn't

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Speaker 3: reported missing, and I don't think they would have reported

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Speaker 3: in missing unless well I don't think anyone in that

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Speaker 3: community would report someone missing. And I say, had a

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Speaker 3: really really bad feeling that it was wrong, and then

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Speaker 3: they had to go to the cots to say something.

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Speaker 3: And I don't think they felt that and because to them,

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Speaker 3: that's just normal living. And you know, it's just same

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Speaker 3: in my community, like my brother goes missing for three

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Speaker 3: or four days sometimes and I'm like, hell is he

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Speaker 3: you know? Oh, he's at the mission doing something. It's

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Speaker 3: the same thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So the first involvement or notification of the

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Speaker 1: police is when Sonya's body has been found. Yeah, they've

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Speaker 1: contacted the police. Found by her husband. Her husband, her

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Speaker 1: uncle Merle and he's got in contact with the police. Then,

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Speaker 1: as my understanding, homicide detectives of local police would.

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Speaker 2: Have come out.

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Speaker 1: I'm just surmising here, but I know from the report

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Speaker 1: that homicide detectives attended that day, so they would have

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Speaker 1: would have flown up.

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Speaker 2: I'm very cautious.

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Speaker 1: This matter is before an inquest and the coroner hasn't

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Speaker 1: handed down findings at this point in time. So what

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Speaker 1: we're talking about here is what's been reported at the

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Speaker 1: inquest and reports that have come from the inquest. The inquest,

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Speaker 1: my understanding, has been held at will Kenny.

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Speaker 2: Okay. Some of the things that come.

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Speaker 1: Out to have caused me concern. When you've had the

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Speaker 1: officer in charge of the investigation in the witness box

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Speaker 1: said that she wasn't even aware initially that she was

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Speaker 1: in charge of the investigation.

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Speaker 2: Is that correct?

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Speaker 1: And she has also expressed as I read out at

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Speaker 1: the start of the podcast that would have done things differently.

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Speaker 2: What's your take on that.

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Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, look, I think, as I mentioned before,

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Speaker 3: flawed system when it comes to you know, historically, you know,

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Speaker 3: when we look at other cases like this, you I

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Speaker 3: go back to Barville again. My take is nothing is

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Speaker 3: like changed enough. You know, we're looking forward, we're fast

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Speaker 3: forwarding here, and it's like what's been identified as you know,

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Speaker 3: gaps and you know police have done the wrong thing

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Speaker 3: or you know, like unintentionally you know, missed things in

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Speaker 3: the past because either they're unconscious bias, they're like, oh

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Speaker 3: it's you know, that's probably not something that we need

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Speaker 3: to look at or whatever, blah blah blah. Like that

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Speaker 3: is still playing out as we've talked about, like that

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Speaker 3: will bring it forward to this police officer right unaware

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Speaker 3: that they were because where was the communication within the

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Speaker 3: police force, or where was the organization to get a

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Speaker 3: proper task force there or you know, team of detect

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Speaker 3: homicide detectives to look at this properly, I mean thoroughly right. Well,

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Speaker 3: I also.

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Speaker 4: Think it speaks to the difference as well. I think

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Speaker 4: there's a couple of factors at play the remote community.

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Speaker 4: It's massively a factor. But also you know, if a

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Speaker 4: white woman's body was found decomposed being eaten by dogs

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Speaker 4: in the middle of the Adelaide CBD, there would be

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Speaker 4: streets blocked out, there'd be one hundred of coppers, hundreds

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Speaker 4: of cops crawling the streets. You know, I think that

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Speaker 4: those concerns that she's raised about that response, the fact

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Speaker 4: that you know there was a fairly junior comfortable at

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Speaker 4: the scene is pretty bathelic given the circumstances that she

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Speaker 4: was found.

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Speaker 1: In breaking it down and this is this is me

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Speaker 1: joining joining the pieces from a next homicide detective understanding

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Speaker 1: the working to New South Wales homicide squad and what's

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Speaker 1: been reported in the media from the inquest into Lasagna's death.

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Speaker 1: A homicide of attended if we accept how it's been

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Speaker 1: reported in the media on the day. So I'm assuming

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Speaker 1: they ever flew up or drove up, drove up the

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Speaker 1: moment they were notified.

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Speaker 2: So that's a tick.

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Speaker 1: The first mistake you could make is we won't send homicide.

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Speaker 1: There's nothing, nothing to nothing to see there and that

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Speaker 1: could potentially be.

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Speaker 2: Where a problem is.

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Speaker 1: So the first step is right they've sent homicide team

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Speaker 1: up there. They're treating it seriously initially, but there's also

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Speaker 1: reports of the lack of CCTV footage gathered. I think

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Speaker 1: it was at the club or the location she was

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Speaker 1: drinking that on the Friday, but only the CCTV footage.

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Speaker 2: From that period of time was gathered.

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Speaker 1: From a homicide investigation point of view, it's crucial the

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Speaker 1: last sighting. The last sighting is basically your starting point

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Speaker 1: to do the investigation. There seems to be some problem

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Speaker 1: problems there is that your take on.

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Speaker 5: It, I mean, it's interesting.

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Speaker 4: One of the things that was raised in the inquest

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Speaker 4: is that Lasagna's ex partner was asked to provide CCTV

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Speaker 4: for the four day period that she was missing, and

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Speaker 4: when that cc he was handed to USB stick and

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Speaker 4: he gave it back, and when that.

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Speaker 5: CCTV was handed over Friday.

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Speaker 4: Night and Saturday morning and all of Monday that we're missing.

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Speaker 4: And you know, I think that the detective said that

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Speaker 4: she kind of brushed up off as a technical issue

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Speaker 4: or you know, there's all sorts of reasons that footage

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Speaker 4: could be corrupted. But you know, having spoken to Keith,

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Speaker 4: who's got so many doubts about the way that this

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Speaker 4: was approached. Something like that only raises more questions because

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Speaker 4: when you've got an incomplete picture, for whatever reason, it

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Speaker 4: could be completely innocent. It could you know, it could

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Speaker 4: absolutely be the far was corrupted, but you then sort

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Speaker 4: of opened that door to questions being asked that now

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Speaker 4: can't be answered because that hasn't been provided. And I

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Speaker 4: think that that's one of the things that we're now

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Speaker 4: seeing play out in this inquest is all of the

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Speaker 4: concerns that the family had that you know, maybe corners

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Speaker 4: had been cut or things haven't been sort of properly

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Speaker 4: looked into, seemed to becoming somewhat to fruition.

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Speaker 1: Well, and we're getting this because the police are actually

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Speaker 1: under oath giving evidence, and this is where this information

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Speaker 1: is flowing out up until that point. Correct me if

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Speaker 1: I'm wrong. When you when you guys were looking at

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Speaker 1: and you're making inquiries with the police, and the response

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Speaker 1: you got back, well, you explained to me.

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Speaker 3: The response, I've got the same response a year year,

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Speaker 3: I think it was. It was the exact same response

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Speaker 3: from the cops. There was any any any questions, any

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Speaker 3: assertions that we put to the police from the family,

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Speaker 3: their concerns, not none of it was answered. They had

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Speaker 3: a strike force there and they were looking into this death,

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Speaker 3: and that they had spoken extensively with the family and

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Speaker 3: that was it. There was no other nothing from the cops.

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Speaker 3: I even went to the cops shop in wil Kenya

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Speaker 3: to speak to the cops and that was a bit

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Speaker 3: of a tense moment itself. But yeah, that the nothing

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Speaker 3: at all.

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Speaker 5: No we uh we.

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Speaker 4: Actually, at the end of the podcast process ended up

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Speaker 4: dubbing at the wall of silence because each of the

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Speaker 4: I we had cases across different states and territories, and

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Speaker 4: each of the police institutions that we approached came back

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Speaker 4: with much the same responsors, which were m no comment

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Speaker 4: or you know, we're we're investigating, or we've spoken to

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Speaker 4: the family, but you know, we weren't really given any

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Speaker 4: sort of insight into those processes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and look, playing Devil's advocate, the police could say

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Speaker 1: it's an ongoing investigation, we can't speak to the media. Yes,

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Speaker 1: you can go down that path occasionally, but I've spoken

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Speaker 1: more detail to you guys and seeing the response and

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Speaker 1: it was a generic sort of blame response that gives

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Speaker 1: no comfort to the family. Or to yourselves investigating it

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Speaker 1: from a journalistic point of view, that things have been done.

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Speaker 1: And I've got to say, and you know, you were

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Speaker 1: predicting this two years ago when you were saying that

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Speaker 1: the family was saying they've got concerns, And now we've

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Speaker 1: got police officers in the witness box acknowledging that things

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Speaker 1: could have been done differently and getting an emotional about

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Speaker 1: the way the investigation has been done. The USB that

401
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Speaker 1: was provided to the ex partner, and I think we

402
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Speaker 1: need to clarify that he's not considered publicly, he's not

403
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Speaker 1: considered a suspect in this matter, but the police thought

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Speaker 1: it important enough to gather cc TV footage from from

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Speaker 1: his place and the US that provided him a USB

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Speaker 1: stick and that's come back and there's significant portions of

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Speaker 1: the footage missing from a homicide. To take this point

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Speaker 1: of view, that would cause me concern. Now there's technical

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Speaker 1: glitches that you can have in computers. What's what's your

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Speaker 1: take on that?

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Speaker 5: I mean, I guess.

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Speaker 4: It's hard not to look at that and have questions.

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Speaker 4: I think any person would look at that, and you know,

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Speaker 4: whatever the reason you then it just creates questions. You go, well,

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Speaker 4: why was that portion missing? What happened during that time?

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Speaker 4: Is there something that we're missing?

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Speaker 5: Is there?

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Speaker 4: And I think that, you know, particularly for her family,

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Speaker 4: you know, you will always have questions. Those sort of

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Speaker 4: things are what's viiral into those questions of well, what are.

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Speaker 5: We missing, what's not being provided, what's not being said.

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Speaker 3: It's also because they're missing in specific times where like

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Speaker 3: we really are looking to know what happened on those

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Speaker 3: days or where she was on those days. And again

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Speaker 3: like we're not saying that this person is you know,

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Speaker 3: like in any way you know, the person that's done

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Speaker 3: anything to her. But it's just that it raises questions, right,

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Speaker 3: It just raises so many questions because the specific all

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Speaker 3: the times of where that footage is missing is really concerning.

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Speaker 1: Like it's yeah, I look, yes, yeah, and you would

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Speaker 1: have to get to the bottom of it. Like I

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Speaker 1: wouldn't be as overly concerned if the police were in

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Speaker 1: the witness box at this inquest and said, yes, there

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Speaker 1: is footage missing. We've provided the USB stick and we've

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Speaker 1: examined the computer and it shows that there was a

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Speaker 1: technical difficulty between this period and that period. But what

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Speaker 1: I'm getting and I preface that with any reports from

438
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:46,920
Speaker 1: the media, there's been no explanation on.

439
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:48,520
Speaker 2: Why that's forgotten.

440
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:53,159
Speaker 1: The officer in charge also made a comment I'm just

441
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:54,120
Speaker 1: looking for it here.

442
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:56,400
Speaker 2: I haven't got the I haven't.

443
00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,080
Speaker 1: Got the specific quote, but it was along the lines

444
00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:02,600
Speaker 1: the officer in charge was. I saw it, and this

445
00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:05,720
Speaker 1: is my interpretation of it. I saw it as her saying, well,

446
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:08,240
Speaker 1: it was all a bit confusing the structure of who

447
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:13,520
Speaker 1: was leading leading the investigation. I'll say, I'll call you

448
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:17,560
Speaker 1: guys outside this. I understand the organization, the way things work.

449
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,399
Speaker 1: What with that type of commentary? Does that cause you

450
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:22,600
Speaker 1: concern massively?

451
00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 4: I mean, look and again it's not and at no

452
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:30,600
Speaker 4: stage I think is anyone putting any and nor should

453
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:33,440
Speaker 4: they put any blame on this officer when you're you know,

454
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:35,640
Speaker 4: it's it's hard.

455
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 5: To imagine in a circumstance.

456
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 4: You know, allegations of murder is the worst crime, So

457
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:44,119
Speaker 4: it's it's hard as an outsider to understand why you

458
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 4: wouldn't have a pretty solid set of systems and processes

459
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:52,119
Speaker 4: in place when you know a possible even a whiff

460
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:57,680
Speaker 4: of murder, is homicide, or suspicious circumstances is raised. How

461
00:23:57,720 --> 00:23:59,480
Speaker 4: someone could walk into that scene and be like, I'm

462
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 4: really sure who's supposed to be looking at what here?

463
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:06,080
Speaker 4: It's I find that pretty hard to fat it really.

464
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,119
Speaker 3: I mean I just think that that was that they

465
00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:11,480
Speaker 3: would just rock up. No, I mean as a police officer, right,

466
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:13,320
Speaker 3: I mean if it was as we say, as if

467
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:15,639
Speaker 3: it was a case here at Adelaida in Sydney, that

468
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 3: would probably be the case, right, they'd rock up. They

469
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:20,359
Speaker 3: would know who's in charge, who's doing what? You would satis,

470
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:22,960
Speaker 3: how do you think you would run an investigation of

471
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 3: that manner or that type? You would you would be

472
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,520
Speaker 3: the leader of You would be the leader I know.

473
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 1: And yeah, there is experience officers and inexperience officers. I

474
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 1: know from experience how you run investigations, and there's a

475
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 1: clear structure and things need to be set in place.

476
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:42,119
Speaker 1: So you don't want to see a police officer in

477
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,919
Speaker 1: the witness box acknowledging mistakes were made in an investigation

478
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:48,960
Speaker 1: where the family have been flagging. We've got concerns about

479
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,920
Speaker 1: the way this is going to be investigated. From the outset.

480
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:56,000
Speaker 1: You've got you guys doing stuff in the media expressing

481
00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,960
Speaker 1: concerns and the very concerns that you've expressed, and then

482
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:02,160
Speaker 1: fast forward we get to the inquest and the evidence

483
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 1: that is coming out of the inquest, and we preface

484
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 1: that with the coroner hasn't handed down the finding, so

485
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 1: this has just been reported.

486
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:09,359
Speaker 2: You've got all this.

487
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 1: Concern about the way the investigation has been conducted. I

488
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:16,960
Speaker 1: see that the homicide detective also gave evidence that the inquest,

489
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,440
Speaker 1: and the homicide detective said, I didn't have concerns about

490
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,120
Speaker 1: Broken Hill or Barrier Police District being able to carry

491
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:24,120
Speaker 1: out the investigation.

492
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,399
Speaker 2: She told the court again.

493
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:34,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, then you've got the local police saying, well, would

494
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 1: have done things differently. So there's a failure without putting

495
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,119
Speaker 1: blame on the individuals, because I don't think anyone sets

496
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 1: out to not do an investigation properly. But there's a

497
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 1: failure there somewhere, isn't it.

498
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 4: I Mean it's like in a newsroom, right, if you

499
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:49,719
Speaker 4: have your big breaking story today, you're not sending your

500
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:53,120
Speaker 4: cadet out to do it. And if you are, you're

501
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 4: making sure that you've given them all of the training,

502
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,359
Speaker 4: all of the advice, You're checking their work, You're making

503
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 4: sure that someone experience is looking over that. So I

504
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:05,160
Speaker 4: think you know, it's hard to it's hard to understand

505
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,920
Speaker 4: how someone could look at and again it's not speaking.

506
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 5: To the skills or the capabilities.

507
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 4: Of any individual officer, but Tidler's look at that and go, well,

508
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:15,879
Speaker 4: you know, why was it just a matter of Okay,

509
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 4: they've got it.

510
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 5: Seems good now, no worries.

511
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 1: Well, looking from the outside the investigation, this is me

512
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,679
Speaker 1: speaking with the Bete hindsight, but based on years of

513
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: experience as a homicide detective, crucial that you would lock

514
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 1: in the person that found the Sogna's body, details of

515
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:35,119
Speaker 1: where you were, who was around the house, or that

516
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 1: a statement her last movements would be crucial.

517
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:40,639
Speaker 2: In this day and age, that's quite often.

518
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:45,399
Speaker 1: CCTV footage, so that's a high priority interviewing people and

519
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:49,359
Speaker 1: following up those type of investigations. I got to say,

520
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:52,119
Speaker 1: from looking from the outset, bearing in mind the coroner

521
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 1: hasn't come back with the findings yet, that doesn't appear

522
00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:58,200
Speaker 1: to be a peer to be the case.

523
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:01,120
Speaker 3: I can say that I've spoken a peace that as

524
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 3: I think about it now, because I did mention before

525
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 3: when she left on the Friday night, no one really

526
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:08,680
Speaker 3: knew where she went, but there were actually people that

527
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 3: reported sightings of her late into the night, and police

528
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 3: never spoke to them as far as I'm aware, because

529
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 3: I know cops went back a second time. It was

530
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,920
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty three that they'd gone back there. They'd

531
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,399
Speaker 3: conducted I don't know how many interviews after it, but

532
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 3: they'd gone back to have a second stab at this case.

533
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,199
Speaker 3: Right but before that, there were a few people that

534
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 3: had seen her late in that night. All said that

535
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 3: they'd seen her later on that night walking along the

536
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 3: main street at the local football oval. None of them

537
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 3: had ever Cops had never get a statement from any

538
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 3: of them. And I'd spoken to one of them and

539
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 3: he was like, no, cops never came to me and

540
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:43,879
Speaker 3: ask many of these questions.

541
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 4: I think one of the ones that you know, I

542
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 4: think we struggle with is Mele, her uncle who discovered

543
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 4: her body. He says he was a question by police,

544
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 4: And to me, that's I don't understand how the first

545
00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 4: person to discover the body could have never been asked

546
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 4: the question.

547
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 1: Well, I can't be And look, people might think how

548
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 1: we're sitting here, we're beating up on the investigation that's

549
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 1: before the coroner. The families flagged this. You guys flagged it,

550
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:14,879
Speaker 1: you spoke to me about it. I had concerns, and

551
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 1: that's why I say I'm sitting here wishing I wasn't

552
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:19,920
Speaker 1: sitting here talking to you because I'd liked all those concerns.

553
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 1: The police have done a thorough job and the family

554
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,679
Speaker 1: now know what happens to what happened to Lasagna, but

555
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 1: that hasn't been the case, and that's why I want

556
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 1: to talk about That's why I wanted to sit down

557
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,200
Speaker 1: with you guys and talk about it, because how many

558
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 1: times are we going to let this happen? And how

559
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 1: can you have confidence in an investigation if you're the family,

560
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 1: if you've got a family member that side, how can

561
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 1: you have confidence in an investigation when you've got police

562
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 1: acknowledging that they could have could have done things better.

563
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 1: I'm all for admitting we make mistakes. We all make

564
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 1: mistakes time and time time again. But these are pretty

565
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 1: simple things that it should have been done and should

566
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 1: have been properly. Not blaming the individual offices, but what

567
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 1: it's a structure that this is allowed to happen, given

568
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 1: the fact that there's been warnings about this. Let's call

569
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 1: it from the bearable time, because the bearable time should

570
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 1: changed the landscape. We should not be making these mistakes.

571
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 1: And that's why that's why I'm so passionate about it.

572
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 1: I think, well, stuff this. We identified all the problems

573
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 1: back there, and look what's happened there, and here we are,

574
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 1: thirty thirty five years down the track, we're still making

575
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 1: those mistakes.

576
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 4: So well, we've got it's thirty years later, and we've

577
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 4: got a book filled with we'll take out Shannaro because

578
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 4: she the circumstances of her death, but the same thing,

579
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 4: the response to her death thirty years later, and we've

580
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 4: got a book filled with the stories of six families

581
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 4: who have gone through essentially the exact same thing, those

582
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:45,719
Speaker 4: the families of the Bowerville cases.

583
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the Senate inquiry, the Senate Inquiry into

584
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 1: Missing the murdered First Nations Women and Children. Do you

585
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 1: guys know how that came about or what generated that,

586
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 1: how that inquiry started? I do.

587
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 5: It's been so long since I've covered it.

588
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 3: I've actually had a blank.

589
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:09,479
Speaker 1: Not the specific individual that's initiated, but I think it

590
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 1: was because of all the dramas. It was collectively like

591
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 1: one situation after another that it was decided the Senate

592
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 1: inquiry and they don't have a whole a federal Senate inquiry.

593
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 1: Lightly Statistically, just if we look at things from a

594
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 1: statistic point of view, have you got a focus on

595
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 1: the statistics of murdered Indigenous women or missing Indigenous women?

596
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean the rates are I think on average

597
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 4: it's about eight times high for Indigenous women murder rates

598
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 4: in Western Australia. It's actually about seventeen point five times

599
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 4: higher than non Indigenous women.

600
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 5: And there's also a lot of other statistics that come

601
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:49,160
Speaker 5: into play.

602
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 4: Four times more likely to be hospitalized due to domestic

603
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 4: violence and six times more likely to die of family violence.

604
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 5: And I think a lot.

605
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 4: Of those figures as well, unfortunately, are the best that

606
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 4: we can get. But the reporting around the deaths and

607
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 4: the instances of missing persons, particularly in the cases of

608
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 4: Indigenous women, is actually not there's no solid reporting structures

609
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 4: around it. So that's the best that they can glaim

610
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 4: of those stats, but there's still a lot of question

611
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 4: marks about them.

612
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 5: They could be hindy just.

613
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 3: Say something is those statistics themselves is right? So you've

614
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 3: got you know, you talk about the one of suicide,

615
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 3: and then you talk about the one of family violence

616
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 3: domestic violence itself. So if a cop or a detective

617
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 3: rocks up to a case, you know, and they think

618
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 3: likes or and that it, you know, they might think, right,

619
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 3: suicide or they had that assumption in the back of

620
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 3: their mind that this is probably a suicide, they should

621
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 3: also have the other statistic in their head that yeah,

622
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 3: Indigenous women do experience domestic violence at higher rates as well.

623
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 3: So it's like these two statistics themselves is has she

624
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 3: done something to yourself or has someone done something to her?

625
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 3: They both go hand and hand in a way that

626
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 3: they're both something that should be in the back of

627
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 3: a detective's mind when it comes up to well.

628
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 1: I think the part when I gave evidence at the

629
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 1: inquiry was talking about where assumptions have made, where misunderstanding

630
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 1: about things and on that basis go down a path

631
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 1: or ignore lines of inquiry. That's where problems often occur.

632
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 1: I just the inquiry's terms of reference focused on missing

633
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 1: the murdered First Nations women and children sought to examine

634
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 1: the extent of the problem, comparing investigative practices between First

635
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 1: Nations and non First Nations cases. Examining systemic causes, the

636
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 1: effectiveness of existing policies, and exploring actions to reduce violence

637
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 1: and improve safety. After two years and sixteen, here in

638
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 1: sussending inquiry into Missing the murdered First Nations Women handed

639
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 1: down its report. While important, it's not the moment of

640
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 1: reckoning many of us had hopedful. So that is an

641
00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 1: extract again, and I think you guys met that while

642
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 1: we're just sitting here talking about it, that Okay, it's

643
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 1: one thing to have the inquiry, but are people going

644
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 1: to react react to it?

645
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 2: One thing I.

646
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 1: Thought interesting and I think there was a flow and

647
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 1: I haven't got the details here, but the important role

648
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 1: that media play on it, playing this we identified here

649
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 1: sitting talking about it, and clearly the Senate inquiry have

650
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 1: come up with the same same view that the media

651
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 1: play a part. We need and here we're sitting in

652
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 1: the news office, so it's a bit embarrassing.

653
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 2: But we need to play a part in it.

654
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 1: We're working in the media that these cases are not forgotten.

655
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 2: These cases are focused.

656
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 1: When someone when someone's found in tragic circumstances, dead in

657
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 1: the backyard just near it, near the family home, being

658
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 1: eaten by dogs, you'd think there'd be some attention to it.

659
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 1: So thirty one year old woman and there wasn't. You said, Doug,

660
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 1: you're up there, and there was no one.

661
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 3: We were the first to report on it, I believe

662
00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 3: an ITV that was Yeah, So there were none and

663
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 3: that's just great. I mean, we can talk about the

664
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 3: remoteness of the community, but what's two hours away is

665
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 3: a broken Hill, right. They should have heard about this.

666
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:11,400
Speaker 3: I don't know if they did or not, but I

667
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 3: didn't hear anything or read anything from that from Broken

668
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 3: Hill media.

669
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 5: Well.

670
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,760
Speaker 4: I think a really good example of that was one

671
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:21,400
Speaker 4: that we investigated as well here in South Australia, Sharan Warrior,

672
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 4: who was missing for nine days before her body was found,

673
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:29,320
Speaker 4: and it was only once the media got involved that really,

674
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 4: you know, sort of kicked into gear. But I mean

675
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:35,840
Speaker 4: it was a when we looked at sort of even

676
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 4: and I think we can. I think we have to,

677
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 4: as you said, you have to admit your mistakes, and

678
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:42,400
Speaker 4: I think that we have to admit our mistakes as

679
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,959
Speaker 4: well as a media as a whole. That we didn't

680
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 4: pick up on that case until much later down the track,

681
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:52,759
Speaker 4: because I think that you do see I think those biases.

682
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 4: And I think I mentioned earlier that the you know,

683
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 4: it's not necessarily it's not just the police that have

684
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,239
Speaker 4: issues with biases. And I think it's we have to

685
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,719
Speaker 4: acknowledge that. You know, we will see police releases put

686
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,840
Speaker 4: out about missing women, and I think there is a

687
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:08,719
Speaker 4: tendency in an.

688
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:10,800
Speaker 5: Unconscious bias to go, oh, well, it's.

689
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 3: An Indigenous woman, so it should probably.

690
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 5: Turn up or you know, And I think that that's

691
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 5: that's what happens.

692
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,320
Speaker 4: And I think that the media is just as complicit

693
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 4: a lot of the time in not not really focusing on.

694
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 1: Those stories, with the with the book that you've got

695
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 1: and the and the podcast series and I know you

696
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,239
Speaker 1: too are passionate about it and the whole team that

697
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 1: you've worked on this.

698
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 2: Do you think we can make a change?

699
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:36,319
Speaker 3: Oh man, that's a big one. A. I think only

700
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 3: time will tell. To be honest, it's going to take

701
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:42,800
Speaker 3: an effort from everyone. And I guess the media itself

702
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 3: to have a look at itself in the way that

703
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 3: they report. As you know, Emily has said that admits

704
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:49,880
Speaker 3: to your in the States. I think the media do

705
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 3: play a big role in not covering these stories. Properly

706
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 3: and or giving it even attention as they would a

707
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,799
Speaker 3: non Indigenous person or And one thing I did find

708
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 3: is well, as socio economic status does play a big

709
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 3: role in how much time media or police are going

710
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,319
Speaker 3: to spend in someone's case, you know. So, and that's

711
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 3: regardless of skin color, I believe as well, but it

712
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:16,320
Speaker 3: just happens that Unfortunately for Indigenous women, it's more more often,

713
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:19,399
Speaker 3: it's more common in our communities, and that we don't

714
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,400
Speaker 3: get that media attention, that we don't get that police

715
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 3: response that you know, we desire, that we need that

716
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:29,840
Speaker 3: is you know, to correct it, to make things. It

717
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 3: just doesn't happen.

718
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:35,280
Speaker 4: So I think as well, particularly for audiences and particularly

719
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,920
Speaker 4: you know, as white people, I think that people can

720
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:42,600
Speaker 4: have a tendency when you have these conversations to feel

721
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:45,319
Speaker 4: like they're being attacked or they're being blamed for something, right,

722
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:48,319
Speaker 4: you know, like white people here, someone say, you know,

723
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:52,760
Speaker 4: policing is a the institution has racial biocense, right, and white.

724
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:54,319
Speaker 5: Police officers might go, oh, but not me.

725
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:57,319
Speaker 4: And I think that people it's really important for people

726
00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 4: and something that I hope that can happen is to

727
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 4: be able to separate out and go, this isn't an

728
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:04,239
Speaker 4: attack on me. Think that people need to separate out

729
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 4: and go just remove yourself. No one's having a go

730
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 4: at you. You can acknowledge that we as a society

731
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 4: and as Australia have made mistakes. We need to fix

732
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 4: those mistakes. And the only way that you can fix

733
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 4: those mistakes is to acknowledge that they have happened. And

734
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 4: so I think that acknowledgment and then that listening, and

735
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 4: then that understanding, and then that change has to come

736
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,760
Speaker 4: right from the start of recognizing that something is wrong

737
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 4: in the first place.

738
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:35,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think what you've said is one hundred

739
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 1: percent correct. I think police have to also acknowledge that

740
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:41,160
Speaker 1: there has been problems in the past. I'm talking from

741
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 1: a police point of view, and we're going to overcompensate

742
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:46,480
Speaker 1: for that. We're going to make sure we do it properly,

743
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 1: because time and time again we've shown that we haven't

744
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:51,879
Speaker 1: done it, done it properly, and it's just not good enough.

745
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 3: I can tell you that sitting in that Senate inquiry

746
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:56,400
Speaker 3: the day that we did, the head of the New

747
00:37:56,440 --> 00:38:00,160
Speaker 3: South Wales Police Force was there, the homicide squad. They

748
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:03,120
Speaker 3: didn't really admit to anything like wrongdoing on their side.

749
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 3: On their part, nothing was really you know, they hadn't

750
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 3: made that many mistakes. Or when it comes to you know,

751
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 3: like how do you deal with this case, they always

752
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 3: bring up cultural sensitivity training. We do enough cultural awareness

753
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 3: training that it's like cultural awareness training is not going

754
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 3: to solve a murder, right, So it's like and then

755
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:23,800
Speaker 3: they even asked it the head of this somermicide squad

756
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:26,160
Speaker 3: or you know, how many Indigenous people do you have

757
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 3: in the homicide squad? You couldn't answer that question. And

758
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 3: it's also there was one big question I think it was,

759
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 3: is do you think that I don't know after the

760
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 3: senator or in the Cox axit or not. Was there racism?

761
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:39,239
Speaker 3: Was it rife in the South Wales Police Force? And

762
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,839
Speaker 3: that no, Like they were just saying no, like straight up,

763
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:43,719
Speaker 3: like there's no, But there was no room for them

764
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 3: to say that it is. But it's you know, we're

765
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 3: trying to address like it was just no, it was

766
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 3: they don't want to admit to it.

767
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 2: And that's one of.

768
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 4: The criticisms of the recommendations of the findings from the

769
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:58,520
Speaker 4: Senate inquiry was that they didn't go far enough During

770
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 4: the Cox Senator during the came out and said, you know,

771
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:04,800
Speaker 4: one of the main ones was the Police Minister's Counsel

772
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 4: to review existing police practices towards first Nations people.

773
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 5: Right, sure, that is important.

774
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 4: But you know, I think that even because even then

775
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 4: a Senate inquiry is being held within a system, within

776
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:22,360
Speaker 4: a you know, system that was created by white Australia

777
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,319
Speaker 4: to cater to you know, like, I think, until there's

778
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:28,400
Speaker 4: that cross the board recognition that we have made mistakes,

779
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 4: we have all made mistakes as a society, we are

780
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 4: going to acknowledge them and we're going to do something

781
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:36,759
Speaker 4: about them. Until police, you know, senior police officers can

782
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 4: sit in front of an inquiry and say yes, we

783
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 4: acknowledge that, you don't really see how you've moved forward

784
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:43,920
Speaker 4: in a meaningful them.

785
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 1: And what saddens me saddens me about that when we

786
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 1: had the parable Parliamentary inquiry and the recommendations that came out,

787
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 1: one of the first one of the first recommendations was

788
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:59,399
Speaker 1: training the education of police. But they went further to say,

789
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:01,840
Speaker 1: not we all sit in the room and watch a

790
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:04,920
Speaker 1: PowerPoint presentation and we all know that like if they

791
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 1: do the training here and the media, you just sit

792
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 1: there and not They wanted something that was meaningful, and

793
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 1: they created a training film with me narrating it, speaking

794
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:19,280
Speaker 1: with the passion, speaking with the anger about what happened

795
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:23,840
Speaker 1: unbearable and so people should watch that to change that culture.

796
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:27,440
Speaker 1: And we've got to push police and not just police.

797
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:30,759
Speaker 1: If we're educating everyone, you don't just learn just sitting

798
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:34,279
Speaker 1: there and going okay, cultural competency and awareness. It's got

799
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 1: to be lived experience, and you've got to see how

800
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 1: this impacts so problems that occurred. What happened, Well, someone

801
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 1: has still got a way of murdering three children in

802
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 1: the Vowerable case. So yeah, it's definitely something that we

803
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:50,800
Speaker 1: need to need to fixed.

804
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 4: So it's interesting you mentioned anger as well, because I

805
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 4: think that's something that you know, the response when journalism

806
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 4: one one one when you want someone to you know,

807
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:03,799
Speaker 4: you don't use statistics to get someone across the line.

808
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 5: You could have faced a story. And that's the case study.

809
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:08,759
Speaker 4: And I think when people saw the cases that we

810
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:12,080
Speaker 4: presented in Diagos, there was outrage. People how could this

811
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 4: be happening under our noses? And I actually think in

812
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 4: this instance that's what people should be feeling they should

813
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 4: be anger and they should be outrage that these systems

814
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:22,359
Speaker 4: are still failing these people in this way.

815
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 1: Well, you know, I know what you're saying. It's probably

816
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 1: not a good terminology, but you need to hit people

817
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 1: over the head with a baseball bat to get it in.

818
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:34,879
Speaker 1: But what I say with Boarable like I can talk

819
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:38,399
Speaker 1: about Barable, you know, in day out and people go, yeah,

820
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:41,759
Speaker 1: that's terrible, And I say, okay, if the police responded

821
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 1: properly when the first child disappeared, Colin Walker, the other

822
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,840
Speaker 1: two children could quite possibly still be alive to this day.

823
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 1: So that's the consequences if you don't do an investigation.

824
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:54,759
Speaker 2: Probably does that bring it home hard enough? Do you understand? Now?

825
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:58,160
Speaker 1: So that's the type of thing. And as I said,

826
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:00,920
Speaker 1: we all make mistakes, and here we are. I'm criticizing

827
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 1: the cops and the media.

828
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:06,240
Speaker 2: You're criticizing the media, which starts.

829
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:10,879
Speaker 1: But it's an important thing and unless unless we push

830
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:12,400
Speaker 1: it and push it, it's.

831
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 2: Not going to not going to change.

832
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 3: And I've got to have those hard conversations, you know.

833
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 3: And it's in all aspects of life in Australia. I

834
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 3: believe politics when it comes to that or media or

835
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:26,080
Speaker 3: whatever it may be, having hard conversations about it and

836
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:31,840
Speaker 3: acknowledging your fuck ups, let say that, but acknowledging it

837
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:34,840
Speaker 3: and then working to fix it. That's what needs to

838
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:36,720
Speaker 3: be happening more more often.

839
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:40,280
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm going to ask you this question, and forget

840
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:43,840
Speaker 1: I'm a former cop and homicide detective. I'm asking you, guys,

841
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 1: why do you think this occurs?

842
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:47,400
Speaker 2: Big question?

843
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,719
Speaker 4: I mean, I guess one of you know, and I

844
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 4: can only speak to what I learned through this process,

845
00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 4: and Doug can speak much better to know lived experience.

846
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:01,319
Speaker 4: But I think that there's a there's a series of

847
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:05,520
Speaker 4: issues in sort of entrenched biases, and it's not just

848
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 4: within policing.

849
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:08,920
Speaker 5: I think it's, you know, within society more broadly.

850
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 4: But entrenched biases towards Indigenous people on a lot of fronts,

851
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 4: in terms of rates of suicide, murder, rates of domestic violence.

852
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 1: You know.

853
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:23,839
Speaker 4: I think that there is this underlying and it's not

854
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:27,720
Speaker 4: necessarily a conscious bias. I think there's plenty of conscious

855
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:29,799
Speaker 4: racism within the police forces, but I also think there's

856
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 4: this sort of underlying, unconscious bias in the way that

857
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 4: a lot of police officers approach cases involving Indigenous people,

858
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:43,839
Speaker 4: and that clouds the way that they feel that they

859
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:45,920
Speaker 4: need to investigate them. And then there's the other layer

860
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:49,279
Speaker 4: that we sort of touched on as well, and that

861
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 4: you've spoken about previously as media interests. And you know,

862
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:53,840
Speaker 4: I think the media plays a role in putting a

863
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 4: lot of pressure. Cleosmith in w A was a great

864
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:59,359
Speaker 4: example of when the media gets involved a little girl

865
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 4: who went me seeing and was found. When the media

866
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:04,560
Speaker 4: gets involved in that, pressure is put on police step

867
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 4: up because they know they're under the spotlight. A lot

868
00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 4: of these cases don't get media interest, and so I

869
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 4: think that there is kind of, again maybe an unconscious

870
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 4: feeling that police go, oh, well, you know, we did

871
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:17,960
Speaker 4: our beds.

872
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:21,759
Speaker 1: It could even and I don't disagree with what you're

873
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:24,719
Speaker 1: saying that all on that, but human nature, if you're

874
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:28,000
Speaker 1: not being pressured to do something that okay, well if

875
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 1: I don't attend to it today, I can do it tomorrow.

876
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 2: Pull off.

877
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 1: No one's actually asking and it gets shelved in the

878
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:39,040
Speaker 1: two hard basket, or you're just touching the surface and

879
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 1: not doing it properly. I as I said, I hoped

880
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:46,839
Speaker 1: with what happened with Boarable and the things that were said,

881
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:49,600
Speaker 1: and I thought there were some watershed moments that, you know,

882
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:52,040
Speaker 1: where the police had the commission to come up and

883
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 1: actually apologize.

884
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 2: Skippy One.

885
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:57,400
Speaker 1: Commission of Skippy One came up and apologized to the

886
00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:00,200
Speaker 1: Bearable community and acknowledge that we could have done it

887
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 1: better back when the children disappeared.

888
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:04,920
Speaker 2: But the fact that there's still these.

889
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:07,960
Speaker 1: Situations going on, and you said you just scratched the

890
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:11,840
Speaker 1: surface in regards to the six cases that you identified

891
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 1: in Diane Ray's I can I can say here I

892
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 1: get phone calls from people that are expressing the same

893
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 1: concerns from across the country, not just New South Wales,

894
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 1: that these matters aren't being looked at, looked that properly.

895
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 1: Having put the effort into the podcast series, which congratulations

896
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 1: to believe it won a Walkley Award, which is which

897
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 1: is a prestigious award.

898
00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:37,440
Speaker 2: I've learned that in the time of the working well,

899
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 2: I've learned a lot of them. I've hearned a lot

900
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:43,040
Speaker 2: of good journalists on the Walkley But you guys have

901
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:43,839
Speaker 2: actually got it.

902
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 1: I say it's almost sad in a way that a

903
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:52,520
Speaker 1: Walkley Award winning podcast series and still perhaps a message

904
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:54,440
Speaker 1: didn't get out there. Do you do you find that

905
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:57,399
Speaker 1: because I found I've found that on the Bearable Thing,

906
00:45:57,400 --> 00:45:59,880
Speaker 1: where you think, okay, it's here, it's on sixty minutes,

907
00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 1: on four corners, it's on then ITV, people are going

908
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:04,840
Speaker 1: to listen, but it just sort of slips away.

909
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:08,120
Speaker 3: I think it's it's an issue that I guess Australia itself,

910
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:11,239
Speaker 3: like as a whole, you know, we don't really identify

911
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:13,960
Speaker 3: with it completely. Like it's not something that you know,

912
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:16,880
Speaker 3: that's an issue that we need to address, Like that's

913
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 3: something that we should be working, like we should all

914
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:22,320
Speaker 3: be collectively trying to you know, make that a better

915
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:25,400
Speaker 3: situation for families. But that's not something you know, And

916
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 3: like your question before is what do you feel it is?

917
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:30,799
Speaker 3: Is like it's for me, it's the history of this

918
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:33,640
Speaker 3: country as well. It's the history of policing in Australia,

919
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 3: and it's the history of relationships between policing and Indigenous

920
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:40,800
Speaker 3: people and that's always going to be, you know, a

921
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:45,319
Speaker 3: bit of a shaky relationship no matter what. And this

922
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:48,640
Speaker 3: type of stuff is, you know, it shows that it's

923
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:51,880
Speaker 3: still there. You know, what happens in dying roads is

924
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:55,239
Speaker 3: because there's no communication between the Indigenous community and the

925
00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 3: police to the level that I think there needs to be,

926
00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:02,200
Speaker 3: especially in my community where I'm from, and you know,

927
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:03,920
Speaker 3: we see a lot of issues there as well. But

928
00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 3: it's also you know, I've grown up with police, you know,

929
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:10,240
Speaker 3: knocking on my door all the time. I've been arrested

930
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 3: as a teen myself. You know, I've had police. I've

931
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:17,959
Speaker 3: had a police slag on me, call me a boom,

932
00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:21,400
Speaker 3: a nigger. You know, I've had that happen to me.

933
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:25,279
Speaker 3: I've had you know, I've had racist police at me

934
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 3: since I was about ten years of age, and for

935
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:29,799
Speaker 3: no reason at all, I could tell you that, and

936
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:33,320
Speaker 3: I responded in a way whereas I hate the police

937
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:36,200
Speaker 3: now because I'm only a young Aboriginal kid and the

938
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:38,799
Speaker 3: way that they've treated me, and I've been traumatized from

939
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:40,919
Speaker 3: the cops, like believe me, and I've had to sort

940
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 3: of fight back. And how do I fight back is

941
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:47,280
Speaker 3: with you know, doing the wrong thing. And that's because

942
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:49,400
Speaker 3: you know, if I would have had a good copper

943
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:51,399
Speaker 3: walk up to me and treat me good as a kid,

944
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:53,920
Speaker 3: I wouldn't have saw them as you know, the enemy

945
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:56,400
Speaker 3: growing up. And I'm not saying the enemy. I'm just

946
00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:59,200
Speaker 3: saying like, that's how it felt, and that's how it

947
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:01,759
Speaker 3: feels in indigit communities. Cops something there to help us,

948
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:03,640
Speaker 3: they're there to police us, and that's how it's always

949
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:04,399
Speaker 3: going to fill with us.

950
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that that communication breakdown. It can go both ways,

951
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:13,000
Speaker 1: like the police will be you know, they'll have their

952
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 1: point of view, You've got your point of view, And

953
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:18,279
Speaker 1: I think that presents part of a problem with these

954
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:23,000
Speaker 1: investigations to where that communication isn't a forthcoming between the

955
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:26,080
Speaker 1: two groups. But I say that with the fact that

956
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:29,360
Speaker 1: you're the police, you're there to serve the public, the

957
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:32,880
Speaker 1: public being everyone in the community, not selected people you

958
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:37,040
Speaker 1: want to help. So we what we saw with diing

959
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:40,799
Speaker 1: Rose covered in the book and the podcast is this

960
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:46,239
Speaker 1: and you described as systemic type of type of situation. Doug,

961
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:48,440
Speaker 1: you're talking from a black man's point of view and

962
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:53,080
Speaker 1: the relationship between the police that all plays a part.

963
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:56,719
Speaker 1: How do you guys like and I'll talk about my

964
00:48:56,880 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 1: thoughts on it from a homicide or ex homicide the

965
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:01,680
Speaker 1: technique point of you, how do you guys think it

966
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:03,880
Speaker 1: should be fixed? What what would you like to see, like,

967
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 1: when this came out, do you think the world would change?

968
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 2: And with all the cops to go we get it now.

969
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:11,520
Speaker 4: I thought there'd be a few more people nodding their

970
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 4: heads and going, yeah, that is. And I think that's

971
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:19,440
Speaker 4: the thing that was that we saw is the response

972
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:26,920
Speaker 4: was massive, the listenership, the readership, the you know, the comments,

973
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:30,400
Speaker 4: the outrage. People were outraged. They couldn't believe that this

974
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:32,680
Speaker 4: was how these families had been treated. So I think

975
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 4: we did get quite hopeful that you know, there was

976
00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:37,640
Speaker 4: this sort of rumbling that there would be a bit.

977
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:40,720
Speaker 5: Of pressure put on and then there kind of wasn't.

978
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 4: And I think that there's you know a lot of

979
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:47,720
Speaker 4: ways to address that, and you know, I can't speak

980
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:51,960
Speaker 4: to the best ways for the police as an institution

981
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:54,560
Speaker 4: to address that. That's something that people fast mo other

982
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:57,480
Speaker 4: than us can you know, come up with ways. But

983
00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:01,040
Speaker 4: I think you know, communication understanding at starting point. I

984
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:04,160
Speaker 4: think the media has a huge role to play in

985
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 4: coverage of these issues, in continuing to bring them to light.

986
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:13,000
Speaker 4: And I think particularly you know, we've got amazing services

987
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:15,359
Speaker 4: like in our TV, but it shouldn't just be up

988
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:17,640
Speaker 4: to indigenous people to tell stories of Indigenous people. It's

989
00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:19,400
Speaker 4: the same as police. You know, police are there to

990
00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:22,200
Speaker 4: serve all of the public. The media is here to

991
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:23,920
Speaker 4: serve all of the public. And I think we need

992
00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:28,400
Speaker 4: to do a better job of being being more aware

993
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:31,440
Speaker 4: of which stories we're choosing and you know, which ones

994
00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:34,560
Speaker 4: we're bringing to the fore, and you know, drawing attention

995
00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:35,840
Speaker 4: to to make people realize.

996
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:40,279
Speaker 1: To get that awareness, I think from a policing point

997
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:42,560
Speaker 1: of view too, there should be sort of you call

998
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:46,400
Speaker 1: it affirmative action or understanding that if you're investigating the

999
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:49,000
Speaker 1: death of an Indigenous person, you've got to look at

1000
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:51,200
Speaker 1: things a little bit differently and treat things a little

1001
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:55,240
Speaker 1: bit differently. Not you know, it's the same rule for everyone.

1002
00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:58,719
Speaker 1: We're not saying completely different practices, but understand that there's

1003
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:00,400
Speaker 1: going to be a barrier to communecsion.

1004
00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:01,600
Speaker 2: Sometimes it's going to be hard.

1005
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:04,279
Speaker 1: And I think La Sonya's father said that, you know,

1006
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:06,640
Speaker 1: he was worried that because of his past history with

1007
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:08,840
Speaker 1: conflict with police and the fact that they've done time,

1008
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:12,040
Speaker 1: but the police were just going to go, well, who cares,

1009
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 1: it's his daughter, that type of attitude. We've got to

1010
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:16,319
Speaker 1: way overcome that attitude haven't we.

1011
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:21,560
Speaker 4: And I think that also comes from putting you know, Doug,

1012
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:25,600
Speaker 4: you've spoken before like you need indigenous homicide detectives. You

1013
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:29,319
Speaker 4: need to have that lived experience there to understand and

1014
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:30,600
Speaker 4: build those relationships.

1015
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:33,239
Speaker 3: And obviously they've got to put their hand up for it.

1016
00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:35,560
Speaker 3: But I don't know, you know, what the situation it

1017
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:38,520
Speaker 3: is with policing, and you know, if like any original

1018
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:42,040
Speaker 3: police officer I know is usually a community constable, none

1019
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:45,640
Speaker 3: are really sworn in officers to fully sworn in officers,

1020
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:49,040
Speaker 3: I've known a few in my time, and I don't

1021
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:51,000
Speaker 3: know how the police recruit and what they do there.

1022
00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:53,200
Speaker 3: You know, like maybe there needs to be a drive

1023
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:56,719
Speaker 3: to push to get more Indigenous homicide detectives because you know,

1024
00:51:56,800 --> 00:51:59,480
Speaker 3: we know that Indigenous well there's a lot of death

1025
00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:02,520
Speaker 3: in our communit, you know, and this book shows it well,

1026
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:05,360
Speaker 3: you know, and what we've talked about just shows it. Really,

1027
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:08,640
Speaker 3: So why wouldn't they get an indigenous more Indigenous homicide

1028
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:11,040
Speaker 3: detectives such trying to help with these cases? You know,

1029
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:13,680
Speaker 3: Like that is one thing. I think that's only one thing.

1030
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:15,719
Speaker 3: Like there's a whole lot of like and I think

1031
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:17,719
Speaker 3: what you said about the media and what, you know,

1032
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:21,360
Speaker 3: making that story a lot bigger for people to like,

1033
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:23,960
Speaker 3: this is serious, Like it's not just an indigenous girl

1034
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:26,799
Speaker 3: from the from the outback. This is actually a person, right,

1035
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:29,040
Speaker 3: So there's a lot of times where we're not really

1036
00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:30,799
Speaker 3: looked at as well. I feel that we're not looked

1037
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:33,439
Speaker 3: at as actual people when it comes to these type

1038
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:36,960
Speaker 3: of cases. We're just another statistic. We're another statistic, you know,

1039
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:38,799
Speaker 3: and because there's so many of it, or there's so

1040
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:41,440
Speaker 3: much of it, we're just another statistic. Whereas you know,

1041
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:44,439
Speaker 3: we're not like, we don't want to be treated that way.

1042
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:48,319
Speaker 3: You know, we want to be we want the full investigation.

1043
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:55,280
Speaker 1: It made me think they're doug about more homicide, indigenous

1044
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:57,319
Speaker 1: homicide detectives or different things.

1045
00:52:57,320 --> 00:52:59,280
Speaker 2: There's a structure you've got to go through to get.

1046
00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:02,920
Speaker 1: To that that position working in homicide. But when a

1047
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:05,840
Speaker 1: homicide is set up in I'm speaking for New South Wales,

1048
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:08,000
Speaker 1: but I know it's pretty similar in all the other

1049
00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:12,120
Speaker 1: states around the country, a strike force is formed, so

1050
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:15,080
Speaker 1: you bring in, yeah, you bring in some homicide detectives,

1051
00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:18,160
Speaker 1: You'll bring in some general detectives. If it involves a child,

1052
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:22,239
Speaker 1: you might bring in a child sex crime detective, you

1053
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:24,680
Speaker 1: bring in analysts, you bring in a whole range of

1054
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:27,759
Speaker 1: people to form a strike force to investigate a death

1055
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:30,760
Speaker 1: or a suspected suspected murder.

1056
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:32,440
Speaker 2: It lends itself.

1057
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:35,440
Speaker 1: We have liaison officers in New South Wales and have

1058
00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:39,879
Speaker 1: similar things across the country potentially, And it just made

1059
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:41,920
Speaker 1: me think, why you're talking. You could if I was

1060
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:45,880
Speaker 1: heading up a murder investigation, let's say, heading up this

1061
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:50,960
Speaker 1: investigation into Lasagna, we could have had someone appointed to

1062
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:54,280
Speaker 1: the strike force as the liaison officer, because we appoint

1063
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:58,360
Speaker 1: family liaison officers when you've got a murder investigation, someone

1064
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:02,400
Speaker 1: that might be the officer in charge, the person with

1065
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:06,439
Speaker 1: appropriate skills to liaise and keep the family informed because

1066
00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:09,600
Speaker 1: there's a lot happening with investigations. Just made me think

1067
00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:12,920
Speaker 1: it's probably not a bad way that you could overcome

1068
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:17,000
Speaker 1: those barriers of communication, understanding where the community's are coming

1069
00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:19,200
Speaker 1: from and their distrusted police, that.

1070
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:20,000
Speaker 2: Type of thing.

1071
00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:24,479
Speaker 1: So that's that's something that perhaps we should should flag something.

1072
00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:28,040
Speaker 3: You've got to change the perspective of young Indigenous people too,

1073
00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:30,080
Speaker 3: and you've got to do that by going into community,

1074
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:34,000
Speaker 3: learning the dynamics of the community and working with indigenous people.

1075
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:38,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, breaking breaking, breaking those barriers down.

1076
00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:41,560
Speaker 1: Well, I hold the book up if people want to

1077
00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:45,000
Speaker 1: dive in to what we're talking about here, Dieing Rows.

1078
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:46,719
Speaker 2: But I've read it.

1079
00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:49,360
Speaker 1: Cover to cover, listen to the podcast, and everything you

1080
00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:53,240
Speaker 1: speak is so important that people have just got to

1081
00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:58,000
Speaker 1: hopefully change our ways, admit that we could do things better.

1082
00:54:58,040 --> 00:55:00,560
Speaker 2: So we're not having this discussion. Going to be really

1083
00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:05,799
Speaker 2: pissed off if I'm here in two years talking to

1084
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:06,280
Speaker 2: you guys.

1085
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:09,040
Speaker 1: But look, thanks for coming on the eye catch killers,

1086
00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:12,120
Speaker 1: and thanks for bringing the attention to something that is

1087
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Speaker 1: great concern to a lot of people.