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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average persons never

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Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys, staid,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. If I

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Speaker 1: met today's guests twenty years ago, I would have said

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Speaker 1: he's going to an early grave or spending the rest

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Speaker 1: of his life in prison see claud Robertson. Our guest

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Speaker 1: has been ad by a Lebano's gang. He's been shot,

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Speaker 1: he's been addicted to heroin. He served lengthy sentences in prison,

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Speaker 1: but was in jar with notorious murderers like Ivan Malatt

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Speaker 1: and the Granny Killer. His life for crime saded when

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Speaker 1: he was just ten when he was arrested for breaking

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Speaker 1: into cars. A few years later, he became addicted to

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Speaker 1: drugs and soon became a drug dealer in Sydney's notorious

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Speaker 1: King's Cross. He was heading down a path of self destruction,

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Speaker 1: but he's turned his life around big time and he's

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Speaker 1: making a difference in the criminal justice system. I first

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Speaker 1: met Claude after I'd left the police, at a formal

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Speaker 1: invitation only function at New South Wales Government House. The

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Speaker 1: function was about criminal justice reform. It's safe to say

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Speaker 1: Claude and I stood out a little bit from the crowd.

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Speaker 1: Since he last walked out of prison almost seventeen years ago.

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Speaker 1: Claude has turned his life around and today he's going

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Speaker 1: to tell us his story and I dare say open

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Speaker 1: our eyes up to problems within the criminal justice system.

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Speaker 1: I think it's going to be a really interesting chat.

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Speaker 1: Claude Robertson, Welcome to I catchkell.

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Speaker 2: Thanks Garry, A pleasure to be here.

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Speaker 1: Well, we always seem to meet in these really formal settings.

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Speaker 1: The first time I met you was at Government House.

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Speaker 2: There's true and I was the last time I wore.

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Speaker 1: A suit, a bit of a shing dig with all

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Speaker 1: the politicians and the senior members of the legal fraternity.

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Speaker 3: It was I remember walking down the long path to

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Speaker 3: the government House and the security the security guards were

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Speaker 3: dressed immaculately, you know, and he asked my name was

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Speaker 3: on the list, and yeah, he gave me directions. And

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Speaker 3: it's quite an imposing you know, with the paintings are huge.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it is an imposing building. When I was in

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Speaker 1: the cops, I spent a bit of time there when

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Speaker 1: I was doing close personal protection, anitary protection, and have

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Speaker 1: times there. But it is an intimidating place and it

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Speaker 1: is I got to say, looking around the room, I

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Speaker 1: saw of checking out who's there, And the director of

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Speaker 1: the DPP was there, and there was judges there and

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Speaker 1: politicians there, and I looked around and think, what am

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Speaker 1: I doing here. I've just been out of the cops,

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Speaker 1: criminally charged, convicted, and I was quite happy I've got

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Speaker 1: an invite there. And I look around the room, I

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Speaker 1: saw you and I thought, yeah, I reckon, I can

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Speaker 1: talk talk to this.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, I probably felt very very similar there were

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Speaker 3: I remember I think the governor got up and introduced

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Speaker 3: and I just remember her entry into the room and I.

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Speaker 2: Thought, wow, this is really formal.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, and she's got up and spoke and

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Speaker 3: yeah it was. And I was sitting there very similar thing,

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Speaker 3: you know, as you said that the former DPP was there,

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Speaker 3: who was in charge of it when I was incarcerating

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Speaker 3: New South Wales.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, but I thought it was good because

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Speaker 1: that was it was on justice reform and jailing's failing

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Speaker 1: and different things about that. It's healthy to have those

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Speaker 1: people sitting there talking, talking to people like yourself with

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Speaker 1: life experience, people that have been on the other side

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Speaker 1: law me as a cop and getting people's opinions. So

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Speaker 1: it feels progressive.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: The solution involves everyone, you know, I don't. You know,

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Speaker 3: I'm not one of those people. But just because I've

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Speaker 3: lived experience doesn't I don't believe on an expert in.

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Speaker 2: Anything by my own life, but it does give me

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Speaker 2: an insight.

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Speaker 3: But you know, I have professional experience, and you have

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Speaker 3: to take into consideration the different perspectives that everyone brings

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Speaker 3: to it. If I look at it just from my perspective,

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Speaker 3: is very narrow and the community is made up of

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Speaker 3: lots of different people and like you said, most of

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Speaker 3: the people there were represented different parts of that community.

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Speaker 1: And parts of the whole justice system. Yes. Anyway, so Hobknobin,

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Speaker 1: the next time I saw you was at Parliament House.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like we lived the good life and that

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Speaker 1: again was a formal invitation and you did a keynote

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Speaker 1: there and on the back of that, I thought, I've

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Speaker 1: got to get this guy on my catch killers you

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Speaker 1: were very passionate. Do you want to tell us about

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Speaker 1: what you were talking about there and what that function

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Speaker 1: was about at New South Wales Parliament.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I was invited there because I'm part of

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Speaker 3: the Justice reform initiative with Mindy Satory, the amazing Mindisatory.

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Speaker 3: I think that's how I got the invite to the

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Speaker 3: first one.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. She's a good lady, she is.

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Speaker 2: I've had a bit to do with her.

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Speaker 3: Over the years and she knows that I've got lived

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Speaker 3: experience and professional and then I'm very passionate about advocacy

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Speaker 3: about changing the system. So she, you know, called me

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Speaker 3: up and said could you speak you know at Parliament

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Speaker 3: House we've got a couple of lived experience speakers.

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Speaker 2: Gail was the other one.

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Speaker 3: And funnily enough, you know, Gaila and I were in

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Speaker 3: rehab together seventeen years ago. So when I as soon

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Speaker 3: as I saw it was Gail and you know, and

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Speaker 3: our journeys have been different, but you know, we started

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Speaker 3: in that rehab coming off methadone together, so pretty amazing.

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Speaker 3: And two and we had had a chat with her

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Speaker 3: about that while we're in Parliament House, you know, speaking.

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Speaker 1: The message you were trying to get across, because again

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Speaker 1: there was a lot of politicians, senior police there, there

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Speaker 1: was a whole range of people from the justice system.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Look my take on it, especially you know, having that

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Speaker 3: sort of powerful people there was. The economics of imprisonment

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Speaker 3: don't make sense. It's you know, I pay taxes today,

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Speaker 3: you know, And as I spoke about that, you know,

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Speaker 3: every time we imprisoned someone, you know, you wait longer

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Speaker 3: at a hospital because this not a doctor or a

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Speaker 3: nurse at cost us. And I think it's a really

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Speaker 3: bad investment. And I don't believe the community has an

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Speaker 3: understanding of what they the non value for money they

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Speaker 3: get right.

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Speaker 1: I remember speaking to Tim Watson Monroe. I'm not sure

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Speaker 1: if you know of Tim, a criminal psychologist. He raised

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Speaker 1: that very issue. He said, look, the amount of money

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Speaker 1: you spend on having one person in prison, you could

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Speaker 1: have a full time psychologist assigned to that person helping

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Speaker 1: them get their life in order. So I think we

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Speaker 1: do need to look at that, besides all the other

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Speaker 1: aspects of it. From the fiscal point of view, the

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Speaker 1: cost of keeping people in prison one hundred percent.

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Speaker 2: And I spoke to that on that very day. You

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Speaker 2: know my service.

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Speaker 3: So we get funded by DCJ ninety six thousand dollars

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Speaker 3: a year to work with four people twelve weeks each.

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Speaker 1: And the work that you're doing with those people is

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Speaker 1: that at where's.

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Speaker 3: That at the Rainbow Lodge here in a city of Sydney.

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Speaker 3: So we work with medium, high and high risk offenders.

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Speaker 3: So those are few and is a great risk of

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Speaker 3: recidivision and returning to custody, so we work with them.

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Speaker 3: And we also work with people on the Wallama List,

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Speaker 3: which is a new initiative for First Nations people in

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Speaker 3: the District Court in New South Wales.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well, I want to talk about that all in detail,

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Speaker 1: but I also want our listeners to get an understanding

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Speaker 1: of where you're coming from and your lived experience so

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Speaker 1: you haven't always hung out at Parliament House and Government House.

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Speaker 1: It's definitely yeah. So tell us about your upbringing.

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Speaker 3: So I come from Melbourne originally. I grew up in

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Speaker 3: a big Catholic family. So I'm number five of six kids.

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Speaker 1: Good Catholics.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, good Catholics, you know, believe it or not. Altar

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Speaker 3: Boy forced religion. And when I look back on my childhood,

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Speaker 3: what I understand now that led me on the path

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Speaker 3: that I went on was that the message I got

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Speaker 3: really early was that the adults in my life were incongruent.

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Speaker 3: What they said and what they did were two different things.

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Speaker 3: And I'm talking six seven years old. I'd work this

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Speaker 3: out and I found that, for whatever reason, really damaging.

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Speaker 1: Was sending you mixed messages.

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Speaker 2: As a child, it was, Yeah, I didn't know where

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Speaker 2: my safety was.

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Speaker 3: You know, I say to people, you know, I could

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Speaker 3: behave the same way in two days and get two

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Speaker 3: different outcomes. And as a child, I understand now as

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Speaker 3: an adult and the work I do, how damaging that

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Speaker 3: is because it doesn't have any safety.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, when you break it down, I'm just thinking, in

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Speaker 1: that strange world that you live in as a child,

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Speaker 1: if you're getting inconsistent messages from parents or people in authority.

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Speaker 1: It's acceptable to do that one day and then next

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Speaker 1: day you're in trouble. Yeah, yeah, I can see how

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Speaker 1: it plays with.

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Speaker 2: You and LinkedIn with the Catholicism.

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Speaker 3: You know, because my parents were from that where you

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Speaker 3: had to go to church and you know, and I

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Speaker 3: had to be an older boy, and you know, the

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Speaker 3: memories I have from that. I remember where I was

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Speaker 3: an altar boy. On the Sunday, my team played AFL

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Speaker 3: football over the fence and I had to sit in

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Speaker 3: the church and miss the first quarter every week, and

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Speaker 3: I could hear my mates yelling out to me, and

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Speaker 3: that was just such a painful thing because I hated.

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Speaker 2: I didn't want to be there.

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Speaker 1: I didn't.

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Speaker 2: I wasn't an alder boy because I wanted to. I

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Speaker 2: was forced.

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Speaker 3: And the other thing was that I saw in my

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Speaker 3: community that you know, on a Sunday, everyone went to

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Speaker 3: this church and dressed up and pretended the world was perfect.

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Speaker 3: Yet you know, during the week, they're sleeping with each other,

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Speaker 3: they're bashing their wives, like like I remember going into

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Speaker 3: a mate's house to pick him up one Sunday to

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Speaker 3: go and kick the footy.

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Speaker 2: Or whatever you do with kids.

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Speaker 3: The door was off, there was a knife in the wall.

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Speaker 3: It was like it was and I didn't think anything

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Speaker 3: of it, and I just walked down to his room

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Speaker 3: and kicked it, you know, banged on the door, grabbed

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Speaker 3: the footy, and walked out, you know. And I think

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Speaker 3: about even that talking about it, and I just go, well,

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Speaker 3: that's just so insane.

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Speaker 2: But that's what it was like.

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Speaker 3: I remember on one occasion going down the street read

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Speaker 3: and I saw a few of the people I knew

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Speaker 3: from church carrying the priest out into the car because

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Speaker 3: he was so drunk. Because they would drop around your

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Speaker 3: house in those days, you know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I look, one thing I don't like in life

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Speaker 1: is hypocrisy. And I don't want to attack the church

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Speaker 1: or agen or whatever, but let's just call it for

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Speaker 1: what it is. Yeah, I don't like the hypocrisy of

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Speaker 1: present one way, but then the real fact you're a

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Speaker 1: completely different person.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I think that fed into the you know, the incongruence

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Speaker 3: of the adults. And then I saw all these and

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Speaker 3: I was like, so the message that I understand now

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Speaker 3: that I got was that the world was hostile. Fuck everyone.

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Speaker 3: You get what you can anyway you can get it,

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Speaker 3: you know. And I started stealing money from my parents

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Speaker 3: when I was seven eight years old to go to

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Speaker 3: the tuck shop and you know, and it just led

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Speaker 3: me down that path.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's interesting you say that, like stealing. I think,

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Speaker 1: as kids, well I can put my hand up. We

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Speaker 1: all go through that stage where he's an opportunity and

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Speaker 1: you take it. But then you get caught and you

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Speaker 1: think of the consequences, and then you start as you

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Speaker 1: get older, you realize it's wrong. But as a child,

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Speaker 1: you can go off track pretty easy.

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Speaker 3: Cant I did, And you know, I know went off

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Speaker 3: track because you know, I two of the primary schools

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Speaker 3: I went to, you know, I was expelled from.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I saw you. You managed to do two primary

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Speaker 1: schools and two high schools.

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Speaker 2: I did the high schools.

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Speaker 3: I can understand, you know, Like I look at my daughter,

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Speaker 3: she's ate, and I just go, how do you get expelled?

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Speaker 1: How did you get expelled from a primary school?

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Speaker 3: So the first primary school was the one I'd gone

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Speaker 3: to from prep and was close to my house. I

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Speaker 3: was just so chaotic, you know, my behaviors. I wouldn't

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Speaker 3: do what I was told, and in those days there

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Speaker 3: was corporal punishment. I'd have to sit up the front

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Speaker 3: of the room with my hands on the desk, and

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Speaker 3: he had one of those big wooden meter rulers, the teacher,

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Speaker 3: and it didn't matter who did it, but he turned

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Speaker 3: around and hit me, you know, and like so I

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Speaker 3: just you know again, it was that message, it didn't

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Speaker 3: matter whether I was doing right or wrong. I was

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Speaker 3: getting punished. Our males will do wrong. So you know,

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Speaker 3: they thought, we'll go to school somewhere else and believe

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Speaker 3: it or not. So I went to another school because

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Speaker 3: my mum was a primary school teacher.

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Speaker 1: Just break this down, that thought. You always get interesting

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Speaker 1: facts on my catch killers, but you got to expelled

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Speaker 1: from a primary school that your mum.

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Speaker 2: Was a teacher at I did. I did, so my

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Speaker 2: mom's a big effort. Yeah, it is a very big effort.

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Speaker 3: So I lived in Franks there's not a pretty tough

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Speaker 3: place to grow up. But where my mum taught and

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Speaker 3: where I played footy and went to school was a

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Speaker 3: place called the pines, you know in New South Wales

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Speaker 3: equivalent to eds or man draw to case housing commissioned

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Speaker 3: like you know, when all the houses were pink blue

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Speaker 3: or yellow and lots of burnout cars. And she taught

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Speaker 3: in the school there and it was a tough school.

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Speaker 3: So she went there and it was you know, I

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Speaker 3: just met a whole heap of kids like me, you know,

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Speaker 3: and I and I still can't remember the up to it,

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Speaker 3: but I put the remember the old Galvi and I

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Speaker 3: steal binge.

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Speaker 2: It had at school.

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Speaker 3: I put that over the vice principal, mister White and

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Speaker 3: hit him with a cricket bat.

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Speaker 1: That's pretty good going, how are we?

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Speaker 2: I would have been like nine or ten.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I look again, like I look at my

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Speaker 3: daughter and I just go, well, what was going on that?

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Speaker 3: I was willing to do that and there so we

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Speaker 3: didn't get the rule there. We got strapped with a

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Speaker 3: thick leather strap called Freddy. And I was so you know,

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Speaker 3: and I led this. I did this into my thirties.

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Speaker 3: But I would go to the principal's office and then

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Speaker 3: go Robinson, what are you doing here?

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Speaker 2: And I go, well, let's just get it out the way.

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Speaker 2: I drive him nuts, you know, because I thought it's coming.

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Speaker 2: You know, I'll get a couple on credit.

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Speaker 1: But punish me now because I'm going to do something stupid.

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Speaker 1: When I walk out. But yeah, it's interesting when you

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Speaker 1: look back at school because I went through an era

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Speaker 1: where corporal punishment was there. It was the cane, and

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Speaker 1: there were certain teachers, and I can see it had

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Speaker 1: to be stopped because certain teachers enjoyed it too much.

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Speaker 1: There was teachers that any reason they could think of,

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Speaker 1: they would cane you. And it's a little bit creepy

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Speaker 1: standing in the in the room with some man with

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Speaker 1: your hand out and he's and you get sentenced I

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Speaker 1: think six with the maximum. They could give you the

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Speaker 1: six strokes and you'd be warming your hands up before

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Speaker 1: you went in, but you'd come out with blood, blisters

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Speaker 1: and all that. But when I say it didn't hurt,

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Speaker 1: it was a bit of fun. You walked out like

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Speaker 1: it was a badge of honor. Actually, and I look

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Speaker 1: what I got.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And when I look back, you know, the things

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Speaker 3: I remember from then aren't the physical scars, you know,

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Speaker 3: it's the message, the lesson the emotional, you know. And

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Speaker 3: when I tell my story, one of the things that

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Speaker 3: I believed happened for me was you know that I

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Speaker 3: went too you know at home that you.

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Speaker 2: Know I got in trouble. I was tired. I was bad.

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Speaker 2: I went to school. I was tired. I was bad.

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Speaker 1: You know, becomes a self fulfilling profit.

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Speaker 3: So does the police told me I was bad? I

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Speaker 3: went to the courts. They told me I was bad.

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Speaker 3: I dow up in prison. See, in the end, you

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Speaker 3: just couple everyone's says it your males or that's.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you do. I think if you get that negative

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Speaker 1: reinforcement in you, it's almost like you just follow the

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Speaker 1: path that your lack of self worth. You got locked

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Speaker 1: up by the cops when you were ten or in

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Speaker 1: trouble with the cops.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, in the ninten soo again, you know where I

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Speaker 3: grew up, as it was a pretty tough place. So

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Speaker 3: I'd hang out with older kids. And so we're break

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Speaker 3: into cars at night. And yeah, this particular time I

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Speaker 3: break into this and this. You know I must have

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Speaker 3: been so this has been nineteen eighty, you know, so

341
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Speaker 3: a long time ago. I in those days, you used

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Speaker 3: to be I can't remember the make of the car,

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Speaker 3: but they get me. I could stand on the roof

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Speaker 3: and pop the yeah pop, the things would pop out.

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Speaker 3: You didn't even need a cay to get into them.

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Speaker 3: And or you could have a budget. They were quite easy,

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Speaker 3: you know, back in those days. But they'd get me

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Speaker 3: to walk up and jump on the roof and.

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Speaker 2: Top the things, break into the car, break into the

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Speaker 2: cars and.

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Speaker 3: Generally, you know, most of the time we're looking for

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Speaker 3: five bucks or smoke source, you know something. And this

353
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Speaker 3: particular day, for whatever reason, this guy left his paypacket

354
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Speaker 3: on the seat and I got the paypack and I

355
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Speaker 3: think it had six hundred dollars in it, which was

356
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Speaker 3: a lot of money, a lot of money. I didn't

357
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Speaker 3: know that he lived in the local sergeant.

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Speaker 1: Right, So a lot of money and six hundred dollars

359
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Speaker 1: are going to investigate that, it's probably not too hard.

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Speaker 3: Well, I remember it because and I split it up

361
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Speaker 3: with these guys and I think maybe I took one

362
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Speaker 3: hundred dollars, which is a huge amount of money. And

363
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Speaker 3: it was we have the Royal Melbourne Show and it

364
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Speaker 3: was around that time, because I know because I went

365
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Speaker 3: with my mate the Royal Melbourne Show and came back

366
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Speaker 3: with you know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, where'd you get all that clock?

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Speaker 2: You know what I mean?

369
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Speaker 3: So, yeah, there was no criminal genius involved in it,

370
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Speaker 3: and so you know I had to with in back

371
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Speaker 3: those days, you didn't get in trouble.

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Speaker 2: You didn't go before the courts at that age, so.

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Speaker 1: I juvenile caution would have been what we can hear

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Speaker 1: a police officer, you've got to gether. The superintendent speaks,

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Speaker 1: you realize what you've done is wrong, Claude, you say yes,

376
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Speaker 1: and yeah.

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Speaker 3: This is where you're going to end It's funny, you know,

378
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Speaker 3: this is where you're going to end up if this keeps.

379
00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:17,280
Speaker 3: And you know, I just thought, yeah, And it was

380
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Speaker 3: not that I I wasn't rude or disrespectful to him.

381
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Speaker 3: And my experience with the police that was, I was

382
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Speaker 3: never I never had that relationship with him.

383
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Speaker 2: I just they were doing their thing. I was doing mine.

384
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Speaker 1: You know, when did drugs start to become into your life?

385
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Speaker 3: So do you know, due to my family situation, my

386
00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:41,360
Speaker 3: first escape was sport yep, So I played a lot

387
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Speaker 3: of sports. I was really good at tennis, you know,

388
00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:47,040
Speaker 3: I played baseball for Victoria. You know, I played AFL

389
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Speaker 3: with you know, Nathan Burke, Robert Harvey.

390
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Speaker 1: Like really, so you have a potential career path. Yeah.

391
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Speaker 2: I played all those sort of sports.

392
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Speaker 3: And because I did everything to get out of the house,

393
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Speaker 3: to not be at home and you know. One of

394
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Speaker 3: the things I've learned because I have you know, I'm

395
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Speaker 3: an adict of have addiction.

396
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Speaker 2: I get obsessed or focused, so.

397
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Speaker 1: That can be beneficial for you.

398
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Speaker 3: So, yes, I was really whatever I set my mind.

399
00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:14,800
Speaker 3: I was really good at you know, you know, I

400
00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:18,399
Speaker 3: played tennis. I was a really good junior and you know,

401
00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:21,159
Speaker 3: and that worked for a while, and then me and

402
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Speaker 3: my mate.

403
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Speaker 2: Every when we were grabbed.

404
00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:26,159
Speaker 3: This is like in the early eighties, everyone had you know,

405
00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:29,720
Speaker 3: cooler bar wine cast in the fridge, so you know,

406
00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:33,919
Speaker 3: we'd be stealing his mums whatever at mosal or whatever

407
00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:36,639
Speaker 3: and drinking that and then and I stilled it to

408
00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:39,480
Speaker 3: this day. I don't know why, trying to hold the

409
00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:41,359
Speaker 3: thing open and pour water back in like they were

410
00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:44,840
Speaker 3: going to know that we've taken two glasses out of it.

411
00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:47,159
Speaker 3: It seems crazy now, but you know, as a kid,

412
00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:50,640
Speaker 3: you know, we did that, and you know it gave

413
00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:54,320
Speaker 3: me the sport was good and all that, but I

414
00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:56,760
Speaker 3: had to practice and train, you know, and put effort in.

415
00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:00,000
Speaker 3: And you know, I remember the first time I drunk alcohol,

416
00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:03,240
Speaker 3: I got that same sense of feeling.

417
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Speaker 2: Okay, what age were you around then, twelve something like that?

418
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Speaker 1: Quite young at that time. It's a crucial time in kids' lives,

419
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Speaker 1: isn't it. I see it that a lot of kids

420
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Speaker 1: you can serve and they're fine, it's that, but they

421
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Speaker 1: can go off track very quickly. Yeah, just by perhaps

422
00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:22,800
Speaker 1: being exposed to alcohol or access to different things. Definitely.

423
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Speaker 3: And I think, you know, I grew up in the seventies,

424
00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:30,800
Speaker 3: this is the early eighties. And you know another thing,

425
00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:34,359
Speaker 3: My grandmother was the Catholic patriarch, you know, and on

426
00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:37,600
Speaker 3: Christmas Day, Christmas night we go day, we go to

427
00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:41,199
Speaker 3: the other grandma's, but we go to my father's mother's

428
00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:45,560
Speaker 3: house on Christmas Night. And I still remember you'd park

429
00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:47,760
Speaker 3: the car and walk down to her house, and she

430
00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:51,040
Speaker 3: had like a car port, very rudimentary one back in

431
00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:53,840
Speaker 3: those days, and all the men would drop the eski's there,

432
00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:59,960
Speaker 3: go inside, kiss the matriarch, get there lotto to get

433
00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:05,000
Speaker 3: everyone got for Christmas, and walk outside and drink. And

434
00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:07,520
Speaker 3: the women would stay in there and drink tea and

435
00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:10,440
Speaker 3: eat scones, and the kids and you know, I always

436
00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:13,679
Speaker 3: when you're about ten or eleven, you're allowed to go

437
00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:15,960
Speaker 3: outside and have a shandy or a beer. And you know,

438
00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:18,639
Speaker 3: I still have all I ever wanted to do, was

439
00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:21,119
Speaker 3: you know, go outside and drink with the man and

440
00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:23,040
Speaker 3: what would happen was you know, my uncle's and that

441
00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:25,480
Speaker 3: would all get drunk and fight and argue, you know,

442
00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:29,879
Speaker 3: was it like? And I thought I was attracted to

443
00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:30,680
Speaker 3: that back then.

444
00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:33,600
Speaker 1: The role models there, the people you're looking up to

445
00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:36,800
Speaker 1: at the time. It's just a lifestyle of culture that

446
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:41,639
Speaker 1: is easy to fall into. You played in some bands

447
00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:43,240
Speaker 1: or you been in the music as well.

448
00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:49,159
Speaker 3: I did so I after I started drinking and you know,

449
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:53,320
Speaker 3: smoking pot, because that gave me the sense of being okay.

450
00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:54,920
Speaker 2: I didn't want to do sport anymore because that took

451
00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:55,440
Speaker 2: hard work.

452
00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:58,679
Speaker 3: So I got into music, you know, because I had

453
00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:01,879
Speaker 3: some mates who are into music. And again, you know,

454
00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:06,160
Speaker 3: because with that addictive personality, I set my mind to it,

455
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:09,439
Speaker 3: you know, and we did pretty well, you know, for

456
00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:12,080
Speaker 3: how young we were. When I look back now, you know,

457
00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:14,320
Speaker 3: we were playing in pubs at sixteen and seventeen to

458
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:16,600
Speaker 3: three or four hundred people, and well.

459
00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:18,639
Speaker 1: That would have been a bit of a high for

460
00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:19,399
Speaker 1: you at that stage.

461
00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:21,720
Speaker 3: It was it was you know, getting up on stage,

462
00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:23,240
Speaker 3: it was an adrenaline rush.

463
00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:27,399
Speaker 2: And you know, I smoked pot from that pot. I smoke.

464
00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:32,480
Speaker 2: This is normal. Everyone did, and you know, and then

465
00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:35,440
Speaker 2: we drink, and I think that was the other thing though, So.

466
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:40,000
Speaker 3: You know, when I drunk, I've never would have beer

467
00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:41,600
Speaker 3: in the fridge, like I would never come home and

468
00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:43,800
Speaker 3: have a beer like I drunk to get pissed.

469
00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:48,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting that we'll speak more on the addiction

470
00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:51,520
Speaker 1: and your understanding of it. But I see people like that.

471
00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:56,320
Speaker 1: I have friends, yeah, throughout my life that, yeah, I

472
00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,000
Speaker 1: can go home and have a drink all each night

473
00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:01,520
Speaker 1: and it's not like it's why I say, it's not

474
00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,080
Speaker 1: an addiction, but it's not a problem in any way.

475
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:06,400
Speaker 1: But then I have friends that don't know, I don't

476
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:08,040
Speaker 1: want to drink, I don't drink all week and then

477
00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:10,439
Speaker 1: have an absolute blind They're on the weekend and just

478
00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:13,000
Speaker 1: once they've had one, they need another one, another one,

479
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:18,480
Speaker 1: until they basically write themselves off. And yeah, it becomes problematic.

480
00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:22,240
Speaker 3: Well, I you know, I realize looking back that I

481
00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:24,720
Speaker 3: drank it for the effect, not for the enjoyment. Yeah,

482
00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:27,439
Speaker 3: you know, I would rather have a water or a

483
00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:30,000
Speaker 3: coke or something if I wanted to drink, So I'd

484
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,160
Speaker 3: buy alcohol and I'd drink it all.

485
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:33,719
Speaker 2: For the effect, for the effect of it.

486
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,720
Speaker 3: So yeah, and I did music, and I don't want

487
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,080
Speaker 3: to put a picture across that. My parents were all

488
00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:42,159
Speaker 3: bad and neglect you know, you know that shit teachers,

489
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:44,080
Speaker 3: and they did their best. You know, I was five

490
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:45,920
Speaker 3: or six. I think by the time I came along,

491
00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,679
Speaker 3: they were tired and worn out. They're always working, you know,

492
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,359
Speaker 3: six kids, like I got like one at home and

493
00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:53,080
Speaker 3: an older one.

494
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,080
Speaker 2: I think, Yeah, six is a lot.

495
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:57,840
Speaker 1: It's easy unless you've walked that path. I've got to

496
00:22:57,880 --> 00:22:59,679
Speaker 1: that stage. It's easy to look back at life and

497
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:01,679
Speaker 1: go why didn't they do that? But quite often your

498
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:06,240
Speaker 1: parents are products of their upbringing and plays on. What

499
00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:09,200
Speaker 1: about the hard drugs? When when did that? When when

500
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:11,199
Speaker 1: did you realize that it was becoming a problem in

501
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:12,440
Speaker 1: your life?

502
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:14,880
Speaker 3: I probably should have, you know, when I smoke pot

503
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:18,359
Speaker 3: every day, but still you know, and again grown up

504
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:21,239
Speaker 3: in Australia. And I'll jump forward just a little bit

505
00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:23,400
Speaker 3: before I go back. You know, when I did get

506
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,160
Speaker 3: into hard drugs and i'd get clean and stop using them,

507
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,160
Speaker 3: my parents would you know? If I was smoking pot

508
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:30,800
Speaker 3: and drinking that was acceptable in Australia.

509
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:35,680
Speaker 1: You know what most definitely I've got friends of known

510
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 1: the whole life of the Yeah, poth hits. Yeah, they

511
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:40,840
Speaker 1: like a smoke, That's that's what they do and they

512
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:43,600
Speaker 1: and they get functioned in life, per fact.

513
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:46,479
Speaker 3: So that wasn't my take. So you know, my parents,

514
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,399
Speaker 3: you know, if I wasn't using heroin and I was

515
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,120
Speaker 3: just doing that, you know, I probably they probably thought

516
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:55,240
Speaker 3: the better of two evils, you know. So I think

517
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:57,720
Speaker 3: I got in the music industry that you know, and

518
00:23:57,760 --> 00:23:59,960
Speaker 3: I got introduced to speed. You know, in the lay

519
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 3: eighties we had ecstasy and acid coming along. But I

520
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:08,600
Speaker 3: think my life it started to change. Then I got

521
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 3: introduced to some people who were large scaled drug dealers

522
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:17,720
Speaker 3: that when I look back, that was one of those

523
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:21,440
Speaker 3: pivotal o It was like the next the next stage,

524
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:23,719
Speaker 3: because so I knew lots of people and I'd go

525
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:27,879
Speaker 3: and you know buy, I'd get ecstasy or trips or coke.

526
00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:30,840
Speaker 3: And I was living in Frankston and suddenly I had

527
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:35,480
Speaker 3: access to you know, coke and like drugs. Yeah, we're

528
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:37,480
Speaker 3: in Frankston at that time. You know, you might have

529
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,199
Speaker 3: the old truck of speed and drink and smoke.

530
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 2: Pot. I suddenly had access to this.

531
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:44,200
Speaker 3: So you know, lots of people would ask me, and

532
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 3: I'd begun with these people and you know, buying drugs

533
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 3: not to make money, just because I knew people. And

534
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 3: I just remembered this guy who became my friend, you know.

535
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:56,879
Speaker 2: Just said ah fuck. You know, he said, I'll just

536
00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 2: give you some and just sell.

537
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 1: It and then you It's a path that you see

538
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:04,200
Speaker 1: so many people walk down. Yeah, I was just taking drugs,

539
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,640
Speaker 1: taking and then I wake up. I'm actually a drug dealer. Yep,

540
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 1: And I didn't realize it, got the.

541
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:09,920
Speaker 2: Keys to the candy shop.

542
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 3: And thankfully, you know, that guy doesn't do that anymore,

543
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 3: and he's amazing mental health nurse changed his life in Melbourne,

544
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:19,639
Speaker 3: you know, and he didn't go the same path as me,

545
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:22,159
Speaker 3: but he certainly got out of it.

546
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 2: And it's funny. There's a number of us and we

547
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:25,120
Speaker 2: all work in helping fields.

548
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 1: You know, when did your life get to the point

549
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 1: where you realize it was tipping that Okay, this was innocent.

550
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:32,919
Speaker 1: I shouldn't have done that. But I've done this, but

551
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:35,639
Speaker 1: I'm still a good person. When did you realize, okay,

552
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:37,120
Speaker 1: I'm living the life of a criminal.

553
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 3: Well, that same guy when he came after me, with

554
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:42,879
Speaker 3: a gun. Okay, when I eyed him seventy grand Yeah, okay,

555
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:44,720
Speaker 3: well I'm sticking a gun down my throat.

556
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:47,160
Speaker 1: Tell us about that. What happened there?

557
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:51,399
Speaker 3: Well, because I had access to the drugs, but I

558
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,680
Speaker 3: was using too many, so I was what a bit

559
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:55,440
Speaker 3: was profitable.

560
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 2: It had become a Pyramids game.

561
00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what I mean.

562
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 2: So it was going to crash at some stage.

563
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 3: But so you know, I could get drugs off this guy,

564
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 3: a couple of pounds of pyton sell and get money

565
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 3: and buy drugs and you know, rob Peter to pay Paul.

566
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,160
Speaker 1: Sooner or later, you were going to be short.

567
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,879
Speaker 2: The pyramid. Yeah, came crashing down, and.

568
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:19,200
Speaker 3: You know he came after me in that instance, and

569
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:22,479
Speaker 3: you know, wanted his money back, and it was it

570
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:24,200
Speaker 3: was a really difficult time.

571
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:28,440
Speaker 2: Because there's two areas of my drug use and drug dealing.

572
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 3: There was that period and I say it's different because

573
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:34,359
Speaker 3: I was selling drugs to people who didn't do crime

574
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:34,920
Speaker 3: to buy them.

575
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 1: Okay, you know, okay, so you're mixing in a circle

576
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:39,200
Speaker 1: of just that's social.

577
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 2: I would do it.

578
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:42,639
Speaker 3: I used to do the court run in Melbourne to

579
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,440
Speaker 3: all the barristers, you know, so it's quite prevalent, so

580
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 3: most of the people. And I was selling drugs to

581
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 3: people in TV, the music industry. So though my actor

582
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 3: was criminal, the people I was dealing.

583
00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 1: With weren't, so you weren't call in that criminal.

584
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,640
Speaker 3: So it was a much safer way to do things.

585
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,960
Speaker 3: But my user was getting getting out of control and

586
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 3: I was using I had news heroin at this stage.

587
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 3: I was like nineteen twenty and I you know, but

588
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:16,919
Speaker 3: I was out. I was using drugs all the time, cocaine, ecstasy, marijuana, drinking.

589
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 3: You know, it was totally out of control. The money

590
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 3: was all and I remember this. I had a friend

591
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:24,679
Speaker 3: who was actually a heroin addict who I used to

592
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 3: sell speed to and it was funny because you'd always say,

593
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:30,640
Speaker 3: I'll never sell it to you know. It's terrible him

594
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:32,840
Speaker 3: and his wife, you know, they were and I saw,

595
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:35,680
Speaker 3: you know, what it had done to their lives.

596
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 2: Though they owned a house and were manageable, that it

597
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 2: cost them. And you think, I'm not going to be

598
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:41,200
Speaker 2: like them.

599
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 3: And I was with my girlfriend at the time and

600
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 3: we've been on the two day coke bender, and I

601
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:49,159
Speaker 3: was like, yeah, I thought I was having a heart attack,

602
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,159
Speaker 3: you know, And I still remember she said to me,

603
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 3: I forget some heroin, it'll take the edge.

604
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:56,440
Speaker 2: I think we can have some more cake. And I

605
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 2: thought it's a.

606
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 3: Rational yeah, And I wrung my mate, the one who

607
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 3: said he didn't never sell it to me.

608
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 1: I'm laughing, I shouldn't know. It's interesting. I think you've

609
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:08,160
Speaker 1: got to look back at the logic at the time

610
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:08,879
Speaker 1: and what.

611
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,120
Speaker 3: I thought that was really, you know. And I rang

612
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:13,440
Speaker 3: and he said because I bought her and got heroin

613
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:15,640
Speaker 3: off him before, but for other people. And he said, oh,

614
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,160
Speaker 3: you know, who's it for, you know, like he's got

615
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 3: my moral dealer. It's you've got to laugh about it

616
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 3: because it's just insane.

617
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 2: And I said, no, no, it's for me.

618
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 3: And he's like, oh you know what you did it,

619
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 3: you know? And I said, no, no, it's all right.

620
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 3: I'm on a coke ben, I just need to take

621
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:31,719
Speaker 3: the edge off to take more coke. And he's like,

622
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 3: and I heard it. I remember yelling to his wife

623
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:36,720
Speaker 3: and oh yeah, yeah, all right.

624
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 2: So they sold me. Then.

625
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 3: I remember I was living in East Melbourne near the

626
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 3: mcg in this giant townhouse and it was funny because

627
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 3: my sister lived in America and for a long time,

628
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 3: and my parents had picked her up. I don't know

629
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:52,960
Speaker 3: if your parents are naive or they just don't want

630
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 3: to believe.

631
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, sometimes a combination.

632
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 3: And I remember hearing back, you know that she they

633
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 3: driven past my house, you know, and it was this

634
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 3: is like ninety ninety one or something. It's like fourteen

635
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 3: hundred dollars a week, you know, and.

636
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 1: The CD he's doing well for himself, young Claude.

637
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 3: Don't have a job, you know. And my sister was

638
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 3: like rock what you know. She sort of thought or

639
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 3: there's something going on here. But so, you know, I

640
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 3: came back that night and I remember sitting in his

641
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 3: house and I snorted some heroin, you know that time

642
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 3: I talked about having the drink and that feeling it

643
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 3: was that this was the real next one level. And

644
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 3: I remember standing at the back door. She was sitting

645
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 3: on the couch. I was at the back door, power

646
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 3: spewing as you do on heroin, smoking a cigarette, feeling

647
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 3: like the best.

648
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:44,480
Speaker 2: It was like.

649
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 3: Every orgasm you'd ever had, but your grant, all the

650
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 3: people that ever loved you were like it was just

651
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 3: and I just remember thinking, I'm going to do everything

652
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 3: in my power to feel.

653
00:29:57,840 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 2: Like this for the rest of my life.

654
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 1: That's the day you offer, isn't.

655
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 2: And that was it?

656
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, and drugs took over, you know, and

657
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 3: you know, within you know, six six months of you know,

658
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 3: snorting that hair and I was shooting up and I

659
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 3: shot up my whole recording in studio and every everything.

660
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 1: Lost it, everything everything, just for that fix.

661
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:20,480
Speaker 2: Just for that fair I just never had.

662
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 1: How old were you then?

663
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 3: Twenty twenty one? You know, the Chinese call it chasing

664
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 3: the dragon. You never get it that first time. That's

665
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 3: you spend the rest of your.

666
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 1: Life seeking that seeking that you know, and.

667
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 3: It's you know, there's some poems, but you know, everything

668
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 3: it offered in that moment, it took away one.

669
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 1: Hundred So what did your life become?

670
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 2: Then?

671
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 3: You know, all anyone who was in my life really

672
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 3: disappeared really quickly. I was a liability, you know, all

673
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 3: those guys who were in the access to drugs just

674
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. You would know with the police,

675
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 3: you don't want junkies around. Annoying junkie yeah, bad for business,

676
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 3: you know, like you know, were the people we didn't

677
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 3: deal with.

678
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 2: And I became, you know, in my group.

679
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 3: At least ten of us used heroin in you know,

680
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 3: two of us became addicted and my mate who you

681
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 3: know is now the psych nurse and threatened me with

682
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 3: the gun and that, and we lived in that big

683
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 3: house in East Melbourne, you know, and within a couple

684
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,040
Speaker 3: of years, you know, we slept in a tree on

685
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 3: Gray Street in the parking, Melbourne in winter.

686
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 1: What was going through your mind that that stage, Like,

687
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 1: were you looking at hating yourself? What? I'm just curious

688
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 1: what the psychology of what goes through your mind when

689
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:37,000
Speaker 1: you've hit bottom like that.

690
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 3: I think I had a huge amount of denial when

691
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 3: I look back at it. You have to, you know

692
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 3: what I mean, because it's shit like I'm living in

693
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 3: sleeping in a tree that night, and my memory of

694
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 3: that was that and God bless the Salvos. They ran

695
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 3: the needle exchange there on Gray Street and their policy

696
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 3: was winters called him out, you got one great blanket

697
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 3: and they gave us to that night, which is really

698
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 3: important because the pivotal moments, you know, with the drink,

699
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:13,720
Speaker 3: the snorting, the heroine on my journey, that person and

700
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:15,719
Speaker 3: I don't know who they are, and they don't they're

701
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 3: that humanity when you can make it of any I

702
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 3: remember those those acts of kindness.

703
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 2: We're huge.

704
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 3: So I just I think it just became so all

705
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 3: encompassing that I just I didn't think about it and

706
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 3: I just tried to guess smashed as I I could.

707
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 1: Okay, what are the crimes you started committee for?

708
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 3: I thought it was a legitimate crime. I was a

709
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 3: good forger, so I could do signature. So I would

710
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 3: steal handbags, get check books, checkbook or the credit card

711
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 3: because in those days you didn't have pins, you know,

712
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 3: you used to put them in and sign it. And

713
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 3: I had it downpacked so much that even if it

714
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 3: was a female's, they'd put the card in swiper and

715
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 3: I just turn it upside that sign and all they

716
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 3: wanted to see was the signature side and didn't say anything.

717
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 3: And I remember, because i'd go to when I did,

718
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 3: I'd go to Cole's and it was all desperate, but

719
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 3: I'd go to Cole's and buy cartons of cigarettes and

720
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 3: walk across the road and sell them at the Lebanese

721
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 3: seven eleven. You know, I think in those days, I

722
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 3: was getting to come for fifty bucks and they'll give

723
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 3: me twenty five you know, so two of those and

724
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 3: I could.

725
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 1: Get okay, so you fraudently get the cartains taken.

726
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 3: Across and this day, you know, she picks it up

727
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 3: and she says, oh it's a famous said.

728
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 2: Oh it's my wife.

729
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, not worry about Yeah, it.

730
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 2: Was different back then, you know.

731
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 3: That's how I got caught because we were staying in

732
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 3: a hotel and I was quite careful, and I remember

733
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 3: the detectives and I don't know how it come, but

734
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 3: I was back at my parents as separated. I was

735
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 3: back at my dad's place, maybe on methadone, I think

736
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 3: at this stage. And I remember the detectives came to

737
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 3: arrest me because that was that just luck because that

738
00:33:57,560 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 3: was my last address and I was actually back there.

739
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 1: And they might have been good police work.

740
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 3: You don't know that, yeah, but in this insin shadow,

741
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 3: the rock up, my dad comes to the door, the

742
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:12,879
Speaker 3: detectives are there. I'd been sloppy, I'd put my fingerprint

743
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 3: on the bit, you know that the carbon bit.

744
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 2: They just got me on that. And I remember thinking,

745
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:21,920
Speaker 2: I really is sure, you know, because I thought I

746
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 2: was always so so careful.

747
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:26,320
Speaker 1: When did you do your first stint inside?

748
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 3: So there I spent a lot of time, you know,

749
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 3: in the three days four days, because you've got to remember,

750
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 3: so this is the nineties in Victoria. It's not like

751
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:38,479
Speaker 3: it was now. If you got caught and you weren't

752
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 3: a dickhead like that kicking in the ass and then

753
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:43,400
Speaker 3: you want the paper, you know what I mean? They

754
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:45,839
Speaker 3: throw your drugs down the drain because I knew that

755
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 3: they cause more pain than any and so I was

756
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 3: very lucky in.

757
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 1: A couple of times. You've been given a little bit

758
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:54,320
Speaker 1: of latitude.

759
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 3: Oh I remember one time in Melbourne. It's three times.

760
00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 3: We used to call them bluies. Blueis feel Kans. I

761
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 3: think they call them here, but they were blue easy now.

762
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,760
Speaker 3: And I remember the third time and like the sergeant

763
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,800
Speaker 3: just gone like mate, fucking go on the train and

764
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:13,880
Speaker 3: get away, like you're a nuisance, you know. So I

765
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,400
Speaker 3: did that, and so I went in and did a

766
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 3: couple of small stints in there.

767
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 1: But when was the first time you got a heavy

768
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:22,320
Speaker 1: sentence and you thought, shit, this is really.

769
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 3: So the first one was when I came to So

770
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 3: when I was twenty nine, my mum was diagnosed with cancer,

771
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 3: and you know, she was dying and she was in

772
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:33,400
Speaker 3: a lot of pain and you know, she needed to

773
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 3: have morphine.

774
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,320
Speaker 2: I was like twenty nine and i'd come back home.

775
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:39,799
Speaker 3: I'd actually been one of the first twenty people in

776
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 3: Australia on the bupern orphine trial.

777
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 2: So there was this amazing thing. You took this thing.

778
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,240
Speaker 2: You didn't hang out. And so I was on this trial.

779
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 3: So my parents, as my family, would let me come

780
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,040
Speaker 3: home or I would come home if I wasn't using

781
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 3: and causing chaos. So I came home, but Mum was

782
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 3: sick and she didn't want what She wouldn't have morphine

783
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 3: in the house because I was there and I was

784
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:00,839
Speaker 3: doing all right, and I you know, I just got

785
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 3: to this point and I just went, fuck, I cause

786
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,759
Speaker 3: them enough pain, Like you know, twenty I just need

787
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 3: to go. Like, you know, my mum, you know, she

788
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 3: had non Hodgkins slim fomer. She was going to die,

789
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,719
Speaker 3: and I just thought, you know, fucking I need to

790
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:19,959
Speaker 3: do something adult, something decent. So you know, I left

791
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 3: and I went to Cans backpacked and you know, drank alcohol,

792
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:29,840
Speaker 3: holy smoke, pot was dealing in bowen within you know,

793
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 3: like you know, it's sad thing. Wherever I went Unfortunately

794
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 3: I got off the plane with me, you know, and

795
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 3: quickly I ended up in Sydney in late two thousand

796
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 3: in place with some backpackers in Crown Straight, right near

797
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 3: the Cross.

798
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:49,719
Speaker 1: Late twenties ings Cross drugs. So what did you get done?

799
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 1: Seven years in prison? What did you get locked up? So?

800
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 2: I was dealing, yeah, straight away.

801
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 1: So what was the first big sentence you got?

802
00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 3: So the big the biggest one I got was the

803
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:01,719
Speaker 3: last one I did. So I got six years eight

804
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:07,320
Speaker 3: months for ongoing supply heroin and well I was on robbery,

805
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:08,840
Speaker 3: but I got it downgraded to robbery.

806
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 2: I went to trial on that.

807
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:12,839
Speaker 1: Okay, who'd you rob again?

808
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,239
Speaker 3: It's a sad story. It was funny I was thinking about.

809
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 3: I was thinking, fuck, you don't want to tell that.

810
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 3: It's embarrassing.

811
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:20,840
Speaker 1: But this is to understand it.

812
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:23,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was on bail, believe it or not, for

813
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 3: ongoing supply of heroin. I don't know if people understand that.

814
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:30,280
Speaker 3: You've got to sell it three times. And I knew

815
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:33,239
Speaker 3: that I'd sold it to the coppers. But if I

816
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:34,799
Speaker 3: didn't sell it to him, I knew they were This

817
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 3: is the insanity. I knew the moment I stopped selling.

818
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:38,879
Speaker 3: I'm going to kick my daughter down. I couldn't use,

819
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 3: so I fucking kept putting you my off and so

820
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 3: I sold it.

821
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:44,280
Speaker 1: Over it, kept selling it so you could keep using.

822
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:45,400
Speaker 2: Knowing that they were coming.

823
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 3: They had to great playing cord. Yeah, and that's the insanity.

824
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 3: That's the best plan I had, you know. So I

825
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,439
Speaker 3: ended up I was out on bail. I was with

826
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:55,319
Speaker 3: my girlfriend.

827
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 2: I had it.

828
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 3: They used to call me because my name, so my

829
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 3: dealing name was Corey because you couldn't have you know.

830
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 1: So what a decent dealer would be called Claude.

831
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

832
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:08,920
Speaker 3: So I was leaving up there with her and I

833
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 3: don't even know. I think she'd done a job and

834
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:12,799
Speaker 3: someone to give her a ton of ice. So I

835
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:15,919
Speaker 3: ended up on ice for three days and I just said,

836
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 3: I'm going to get some milk or some smokes.

837
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:20,280
Speaker 2: So I go up the street and for some.

838
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:22,920
Speaker 3: Reason I thought, fuck, I feel really sick, and you know,

839
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 3: and then I just had this moment.

840
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 2: I was in Crown Street.

841
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 3: And fuck, I'm a heroin addict. I haven't used. I

842
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,239
Speaker 3: couldn't even remember. I fucking need heroin. I need to

843
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:33,759
Speaker 3: shot a heroin. And I saw this lady closing up

844
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:35,719
Speaker 3: her shop. I don't k't even remember what it was,

845
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:38,319
Speaker 3: and I just thought, I just I'm going to rub her,

846
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 3: which I did, you know, and I stole her.

847
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:41,800
Speaker 2: I didn't know what that.

848
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 3: I had no idea, but it was I think that

849
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 3: the handbag was worth more than any of the money.

850
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 3: It was like Louis Vatan or something something. So I

851
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 3: stole that. And my dealer at the time was at

852
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:55,399
Speaker 3: the other end of Crown Street, so I thought, fuck,

853
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 3: I haven't got far to run. I can't make out

854
00:38:57,440 --> 00:38:58,800
Speaker 3: the shop because she was screaming.

855
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 2: Of course, and got hit by a car. That's only hard.

856
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 3: So I get hit by a car, and of course,

857
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 3: you know, I'm on adrenaline, so I just get up

858
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:10,399
Speaker 3: and go and I'm bowlding down cramps. I've still got

859
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:13,359
Speaker 3: the bag, and then I hear this, and I thought,

860
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:16,640
Speaker 3: oh no, I know that that's the Cobs And you know,

861
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:18,279
Speaker 3: believe it or not, the car that hits me, the

862
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 3: two behind me are two undercovers, just you know.

863
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 2: So they chase.

864
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 3: So I cut down through the back laneways because I

865
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 3: think I know how to get to this guy's house

866
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 3: through the back laneway. They pull up and set chase

867
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:33,359
Speaker 3: to me, and I look back and one of them

868
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:35,480
Speaker 3: is like this fat sort of copper. I thought, fuck,

869
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 3: I've got hear me and I got a hope, and

870
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:38,879
Speaker 3: the other ones like this twenty year old girl out

871
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 3: of the fucking academy. You're down, she's you know, I

872
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:47,440
Speaker 3: probably would have got away because she obviously didn't know

873
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 3: all the lame ways. But I tend down a dead

874
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 3: a dead end lane way, so I end in the

875
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:55,400
Speaker 3: lame way. There's me and her, and again the insanity

876
00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 3: al of it, and.

877
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:58,360
Speaker 2: I thought, fuck or robber.

878
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 3: I rob her too, you know, and you know she

879
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 3: I don't know whether I did, but she believed I

880
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 3: was going for her gun.

881
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:09,520
Speaker 1: Okay, you know, things are starting to get serious.

882
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 3: It was pure, you know, and all I wanted to

883
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 3: do was get to this guy's house to have a

884
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:15,680
Speaker 3: shot of heroin, to fucking fix it all, you know,

885
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:17,360
Speaker 3: to work it all out. And I'm sitting, you know,

886
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 3: we have a scaffle and all that, and you know,

887
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 3: she pulls back and pulls her gun on me, you know,

888
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 3: and I'm like fuck, you know, and still even then,

889
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:29,720
Speaker 3: I thought she's not going to fucking shot She really

890
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:33,040
Speaker 3: not really just fucking run off, still got the bag

891
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 3: like just insane. And then by this stage, you know,

892
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 3: fucked her every like they were.

893
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:40,160
Speaker 2: They came pouring in, so.

894
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 1: You got locked up and you get sense to six

895
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 1: years eight months.

896
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:51,239
Speaker 3: So first off I was unfortunately there was it was full.

897
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 2: So I spent two weeks in SPC.

898
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:55,960
Speaker 1: Which is it's like twelve weeks anywhere else.

899
00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 2: It's horror.

900
00:40:57,400 --> 00:40:59,439
Speaker 3: You know, it's underneath the Surreel's police and it there's

901
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 3: no window, there's one shower if you're lucky to get it.

902
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:07,840
Speaker 3: You know, they heat the pies so hot that it

903
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 3: burned your mouth.

904
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:10,480
Speaker 2: You know, it's a horror show.

905
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're not the first guest on my Catch Killers

906
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:14,399
Speaker 1: that has complained about that.

907
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:18,239
Speaker 3: So then I went from M double RC to Paramatta.

908
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 3: But I got stabbed at Paramatta.

909
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 1: What in there? If correct me? If I'm wrong, You've

910
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 1: been shot once yep, and stabbed twice, SA twice, Yeah,

911
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:29,400
Speaker 1: tell us about those events.

912
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:32,680
Speaker 3: Well they're stabbing happened at Paris. I was on ramand

913
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 3: I was in four wing at Paramatta and in those

914
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:40,880
Speaker 3: days so it was C and B CLASSO ramand prisoners

915
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:44,279
Speaker 3: one two and three wing was I think it was

916
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 3: weekend prisoners and the laundry. So I ended up being

917
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:51,360
Speaker 3: the become the laundry sweeper with.

918
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:53,320
Speaker 2: My cell mate.

919
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 3: So you know, we had all the blankets and all that,

920
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:59,879
Speaker 3: and they used to come with this white string around them,

921
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:01,759
Speaker 3: So our job was to give about the blankets and

922
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:03,920
Speaker 3: all that and keep all the strings so people couldn't

923
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:04,720
Speaker 3: use it as weapons.

924
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 2: So we had all this string in our.

925
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 3: Room, and my cell mate knew the guy who was

926
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 3: the laundry sweeper, so we would pack it all up

927
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 3: and he would take it over to one, two and

928
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:16,400
Speaker 3: three and his mate lived down the road who had drugs.

929
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 3: So in those days, at three point thirty, when they

930
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:22,719
Speaker 3: locked you in the guard tower above four wing, he

931
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:25,840
Speaker 3: would go inside. So this guy would whistle and we

932
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:29,600
Speaker 3: would tie all the bits of string together with a

933
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 3: pan and a finger off a glove and make a

934
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:36,719
Speaker 3: slingshot and shoot the wire of the fence and he'd

935
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:38,239
Speaker 3: tie the drugs too, would bring him over.

936
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 2: We got half and the other.

937
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 3: Half went to the guy whose drugs they were, so

938
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:45,920
Speaker 3: we did that. But to do that it's not as

939
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 3: easy as it sounds. And then the dickhead bloody put

940
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 3: a phone on it. So when sal mate goes to

941
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 3: pull it back in over the wire, it gets cart

942
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:57,279
Speaker 3: and falls into what we call the steriles, are in

943
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:01,400
Speaker 3: between the wall and the building. And fuck but my

944
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 3: mate at the time was the sweeper for the steroll zone,

945
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 3: so I had to wait till the morning. So as

946
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:09,200
Speaker 3: soon as we got let go in the morning, I

947
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 3: ran to my mate and said, fuck, you know, I

948
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 3: don't know, we'll give you. You've got to get out there.

949
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:14,799
Speaker 3: And you know, he just bolted. He didn't get.

950
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 2: Halfway down and wah wah.

951
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:21,720
Speaker 3: They'd seen it. So there was our cell and below

952
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 3: us was the Lebanese The guards went straight to the

953
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:27,359
Speaker 3: Lebanese blakes and you know.

954
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 2: Blamm and all this sort of thing.

955
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:33,560
Speaker 3: But I'm in my cell because I because I was

956
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:35,480
Speaker 3: a sweeper with the laundry, I could stay in my

957
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 3: cell when you got let out into the yard, I was.

958
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 2: I was doing something.

959
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 3: And yeah, the next thing you know, ate Lebanese blake's

960
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:43,719
Speaker 3: walking to my cell, and you know, this fucking blake's gone.

961
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:44,960
Speaker 3: You know, you've got to go and tell me what

962
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:48,000
Speaker 3: you And I'm like, okay, fuck yourself, let it. Not

963
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:51,000
Speaker 3: telling them fucking anything, you know, and then I just

964
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 3: felt this in my guts and you know, and they

965
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:55,080
Speaker 3: started attacking me.

966
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:58,160
Speaker 1: How many times? What were the ship they.

967
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:01,319
Speaker 3: Got with a sharpened toothbrush. No, I only let them

968
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 3: get at me once. Yeah, luckily because it sort of

969
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 3: got stuck in there, which in hindsight was a good thing.

970
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:09,400
Speaker 2: And I just, you know, I hit him Australia.

971
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 3: I thought, I need to just fight fucking for your

972
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:15,239
Speaker 3: life here. And I didn't know at the time, but

973
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 3: one of the guards had seen them, so they were

974
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 3: on their way up. So you know, they the guys

975
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 3: had a lookout and they yelled and they all ran

976
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:25,880
Speaker 3: and you know, they came out in these blood everywhere,

977
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:29,120
Speaker 3: and I just pushed my way past the guard and

978
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 3: went straight back out into the yard and they're calling

979
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 3: for me, you know, Robinson, you need to come to

980
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:38,439
Speaker 3: the office. And I'm like, I'm not going to the office. Well,

981
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:42,440
Speaker 3: I'm going to trial. Fucking I know, I've got a

982
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:45,000
Speaker 3: big wacking ahead him. You're like, I'm like, this is

983
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:48,160
Speaker 3: not good, you know, And you know, the Asian boys

984
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:51,160
Speaker 3: come out and give me towels and all that, you know,

985
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 3: and you know, I just didn't go. And in the

986
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 3: end they sent the squadding and they just extracted me

987
00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:58,560
Speaker 3: and took me up to the sick bay and then

988
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:02,000
Speaker 3: the deputy governor down. He's usually had a security or intel,

989
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:05,719
Speaker 3: he said. I said, I slipped on my coffee, he said,

990
00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 3: he said, have you seen yourself?

991
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:11,040
Speaker 1: When did you get shot?

992
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 2: That was when I was younger.

993
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:16,839
Speaker 3: We were going to a house to so the guy

994
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 3: was dealing drugs. There was three of us. We knew

995
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 3: he had a twenty two and I, you know, we

996
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:27,200
Speaker 3: just went, fuck, he can't shoot us all and we

997
00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:28,000
Speaker 3: know he's got money.

998
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 1: And you know, claud do you look back at some

999
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 1: of your logic and think maybe drugs are another good thing?

1000
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:35,839
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1001
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:37,880
Speaker 3: It's hands why I don't drink or any drugs. I

1002
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 3: haven't for nearly seventeen years. Yeah, like when I sometimes it's.

1003
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 2: Hard to actually like even make sense of the You think.

1004
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 1: How logic?

1005
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:52,200
Speaker 2: How the fuck do you get to that?

1006
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:54,920
Speaker 3: But it seemed so you got's gotten to do a

1007
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:56,600
Speaker 3: drug group off, he's got the gun, but he can't

1008
00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:57,239
Speaker 3: shoot all of us.

1009
00:45:57,280 --> 00:45:58,520
Speaker 1: You go in there and get shot and.

1010
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:00,480
Speaker 2: We got Yeah I got shot, but we got drugs

1011
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:00,839
Speaker 2: on the money.

1012
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:01,799
Speaker 1: Did you get shot in the lad?

1013
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:05,160
Speaker 2: So it was lucky I turned. It could have been

1014
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:09,440
Speaker 2: much worse. So you know, things like, yeah, it's just insane.

1015
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:13,719
Speaker 1: So so your time in prison, like just you did

1016
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 1: that was your longest stint six years?

1017
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:16,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I did, so.

1018
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 3: I did four and a half, been over four and

1019
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 3: a half years. I got out from Goldburn actually came

1020
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:25,680
Speaker 3: to Rainbow Lodge where I'm now the manager, believe it

1021
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:27,960
Speaker 3: or not. And so when I was in prison, my

1022
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:30,440
Speaker 3: mum died at the start of that prison sends.

1023
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 2: I never got to say goodbye or go to the funeralround.

1024
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:33,840
Speaker 1: How did that make you feel?

1025
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:36,920
Speaker 2: You know, it's on.

1026
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 3: Like I still you know, since I've got clean, I've

1027
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:45,040
Speaker 3: been to their grave site, you know, with my baby

1028
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 3: daughter at the time. And I just think the circumstances

1029
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 3: of because both my parents died when you were in prison,

1030
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 3: I was in prison in that stint that.

1031
00:46:56,840 --> 00:46:57,359
Speaker 2: I don't know.

1032
00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:02,399
Speaker 3: It's so far locked away, you know, And I don't

1033
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:05,759
Speaker 3: blame anyone else, that's really you know, it's not it

1034
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:09,800
Speaker 3: wasn't the courts or the police or the prison guards.

1035
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:10,160
Speaker 2: You know.

1036
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:13,959
Speaker 3: I've you know, in the process of changing my life,

1037
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:17,799
Speaker 3: I've taken responsibility that I was in jail because I

1038
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 3: used dougs and I did cry. Now I don't agree

1039
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 3: with the system, but that's the system that I lived in,

1040
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:26,520
Speaker 3: so I accept that, you know. And the consequence of

1041
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:29,480
Speaker 3: that was I was in prison and they weren't going

1042
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:30,920
Speaker 3: to let me out to see that, so I never

1043
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:32,360
Speaker 3: got to speak to her. And then at the end

1044
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 3: of that sentence, I was in Golben and I was

1045
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:40,920
Speaker 3: in the the maximum security section.

1046
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:42,600
Speaker 1: You were released from Golben.

1047
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:47,520
Speaker 3: I was released from Golben in two thousand and six.

1048
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:49,640
Speaker 1: How long had you serve there?

1049
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:53,879
Speaker 3: So I've been in Golben nearly three years. So once

1050
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:57,400
Speaker 3: I got sent to Golden, I didn't go anywhere else. Yeah,

1051
00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:01,200
Speaker 3: it was horrible. I still remember everywhere I went. I

1052
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:04,400
Speaker 3: was handcuffed and two guards everywhere.

1053
00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:08,080
Speaker 1: Well, you got your papers marked when you've sold the

1054
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:11,040
Speaker 1: prison office, Yeah, definitely, for the rest of your time

1055
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:11,480
Speaker 1: in prison.

1056
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 2: Definitely.

1057
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:16,080
Speaker 3: So I arrived at Goldben and Big Bernie he's dead now,

1058
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 3: died on the muster and the boys cheered.

1059
00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:20,799
Speaker 2: But he was a tough.

1060
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:22,920
Speaker 3: He was an asshole, but you know, he was the

1061
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:26,400
Speaker 3: old style, you know, when Goldben was tough.

1062
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:28,720
Speaker 1: And he was sure services.

1063
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:30,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they brought me in.

1064
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 3: And he said to the two guards, take the handcuffs

1065
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:33,480
Speaker 3: off and piss off.

1066
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:36,359
Speaker 2: And I was like, what's on, what's going on here?

1067
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:39,879
Speaker 3: This guy was big, Apparently the story goes, his chair

1068
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:43,120
Speaker 3: was worth two and a half grand and he's looking

1069
00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 3: at my file and.

1070
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 2: A spit it officer assault.

1071
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:50,880
Speaker 3: You know, it's it's not pleasant, and you know, he says, Robert,

1072
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:53,960
Speaker 3: if I could get if I wasn't so fat, I

1073
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:55,360
Speaker 3: could get off this chair, I'll punch.

1074
00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:57,840
Speaker 2: You through the fucking wall that was your welcome.

1075
00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 3: And he said, you're a Goldman, now I own you.

1076
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 3: This is not like any other jail. And then they went.

1077
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:04,759
Speaker 3: And so when I went to Gold when it was

1078
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:10,240
Speaker 3: segregated on Race, so coury yard was like two yard

1079
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:15,360
Speaker 3: was Lebanese, Ossie Islander, Ossi Asian. Then there was the

1080
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:19,319
Speaker 3: cookhouse protection and then the filthies, you know, fucking the

1081
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:21,479
Speaker 3: Murphy's and fucking right down the end there.

1082
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 2: I went in the.

1083
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:25,279
Speaker 3: Aussi Asian, but I didn't even get there. They put

1084
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:27,719
Speaker 3: me in the Cory wing right up the end. And

1085
00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:29,600
Speaker 3: I was on one hundred and fifty mills a methadone

1086
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:32,279
Speaker 3: at the time, so they put me in the end

1087
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:34,400
Speaker 3: of the sound. Didn't give me a methadone for three days.

1088
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:38,680
Speaker 3: I was fucking so yeah, I was horrifying, you know.

1089
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:41,880
Speaker 3: And my mate I just by luck, I knew the

1090
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:45,040
Speaker 3: sweeper and he would put because the bars didn't have

1091
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:47,799
Speaker 3: any windows, he would put the cardboard box in and

1092
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:49,480
Speaker 3: I'd put it up on the window and they'd come

1093
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:51,120
Speaker 3: and take it out. And all they had was two

1094
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:53,840
Speaker 3: gray blankets and a bible and it's pretty cold.

1095
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:56,279
Speaker 2: I was freezing. I was so sick.

1096
00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:58,319
Speaker 3: And then they took me out and put me into

1097
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:05,040
Speaker 3: the Assi Visian yard and I remember like it's you know,

1098
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:07,440
Speaker 3: it's half a ten. It's called the sixty five blokes.

1099
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:11,240
Speaker 3: And you know, in those days, it would take ninety

1100
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:15,000
Speaker 3: minutes to empty the wing because they only brought two

1101
00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:15,959
Speaker 3: cells out at a time.

1102
00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:19,040
Speaker 2: And I was like, fucking is going on here?

1103
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:19,520
Speaker 1: You know?

1104
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:23,600
Speaker 3: And I had nothing like I was, you know, and

1105
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 3: they knew you don't turn up here for nothing. So

1106
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:28,000
Speaker 3: they asked me and I told them what was going on.

1107
00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:30,200
Speaker 3: You know, by the time I went in might sell

1108
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:33,600
Speaker 3: that night at radio books, smokes like of all that,

1109
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:36,160
Speaker 3: they looked after you. Yeah, you know, they made sure

1110
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 3: you know, I was all right.

1111
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:40,440
Speaker 1: I had some stuff. Yeah, all right, well look we

1112
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:43,359
Speaker 1: might card just take a break at this time. We've

1113
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:45,600
Speaker 1: left you in the bad spot. We've left you in prison.

1114
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:48,760
Speaker 1: We've seen the chaos that is your life. The chaos

1115
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:51,400
Speaker 1: is your life. When I think when you're saying that,

1116
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 1: I'm seeing here looking at you, are you for real

1117
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 1: like some of the decisions you made? But that's the

1118
00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:59,040
Speaker 1: path of go down with that lifestyle and drugs and

1119
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:02,560
Speaker 1: all that. You can laugh at it, but it's sad

1120
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:04,880
Speaker 1: and tragic and it's you know, you look back at

1121
00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:07,360
Speaker 1: it and go, well, how did my life become this?

1122
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:09,640
Speaker 1: When we get back in part two, I want to

1123
00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:11,799
Speaker 1: talk about how you've turned your life around, because you've

1124
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:12,839
Speaker 1: been clean now for what.

1125
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:15,600
Speaker 2: Seven seventeen years.

1126
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 1: And by the end of this year, you've been out

1127
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:19,160
Speaker 1: of prison for seventeen years, and you're doing some good work,

1128
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:21,480
Speaker 1: and we really want to focus on that, focus on

1129
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:24,240
Speaker 1: that and get your take on that. How the system

1130
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:27,280
Speaker 1: can be you've seen it, how the system could possibly

1131
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:30,000
Speaker 1: be improved. All right, it's got good stuff.