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Speaker 1: I get our kids. It's Craig Anthony Harp. It's David

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Speaker 1: Andrew Gillespie aka Dag. It's Tiffany and cook a tack.

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Speaker 1: We'll start with the pugilist up in the top left

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Speaker 1: corner on my screen. Anyway, Hello Cookie.

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Speaker 2: Hello Harper. You're right, always, always fabulous or not always

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Speaker 2: sometimes a bit wingy.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes sometimes you're a fucking nightmare. And sometimes sometimes you

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Speaker 1: send me text messages and I'm like, all right, all right,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to answer that in four hours or maybe tomorrow.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to respond to that. Either that or you're

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Speaker 1: sending me photos of cat's peg to fucking washing lines

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Speaker 1: or something, or oh look, baby, a tiny miniature hippo.

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Speaker 1: I want one. I'm like, you're probably not going to

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Speaker 1: get one.

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Speaker 2: How good are animal memes? Though?

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Speaker 1: Annoying? Uless b We've asked you this before, but you're

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Speaker 1: a kind of a dog person. You have a dog

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Speaker 1: in your family, don't you too.

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Speaker 3: At the moment, actually, because we're looking after one that

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Speaker 3: my eldest daughter has acquired because she's a teacher, well

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Speaker 3: becoming a teacher, and we'll be going into a country

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Speaker 3: posting next. Y and wants to take a dog with her.

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Speaker 3: So she's while she's out in country postings this year

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Speaker 3: in her prack, she's given us her dog to look after.

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Speaker 3: So now we've got two of them.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow, and are you? Are you a gushy, cuddly,

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Speaker 1: lie on the floor dog person or are you just

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Speaker 1: a pat on the head tolerate them from afar?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that second one's probably closer.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm shocked. I'm shocked because you're so warm and fuzzy.

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Speaker 3: I walk them every morning, though, both of them in

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Speaker 3: the bush.

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Speaker 1: Oh really, do you live in the bush or near

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Speaker 1: the bush.

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Speaker 3: There's a bush land across the road from us. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: Whi's quite a big lump of bush that the dogs

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Speaker 3: like to walk in.

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Speaker 1: Are there any snakes there?

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Speaker 3: Probably, but I've never encounted them. They probably don't want

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Speaker 3: to hang around and find out what dogs are like.

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Speaker 1: That's that's yeah. I wonder if dogs are scared. I

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Speaker 1: think dogs are scared of snakes, aren't they? Or maybe

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Speaker 1: some are summer anyway, this is not very captivating. People like, fuck,

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Speaker 1: get on with it out there?

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Speaker 3: So why didn't he cut that bed out?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Take that outif I we'll leave it in.

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Speaker 3: Fuck.

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Speaker 1: It, so I wanted to have a chat to you.

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Speaker 1: I've had a few conversations lately and with a reoccurring theme,

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Speaker 1: which is education, and I just had one at the

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Speaker 1: gym tonight which I left the gym twenty minutes ago

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Speaker 1: and a friend of mine, Nigel, shout out to Nige

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Speaker 1: and MJ. They owned some childcare centers, kindergarten's, early learning centers,

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Speaker 1: whatever you want to call them. I think they're a

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Speaker 1: little bit of an amalgamation. But he was talking to

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Speaker 1: me about some of the challenges of getting you know,

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Speaker 1: getting people in the space who are well qualified and

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Speaker 1: good to do the job. How's the state of the

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Speaker 1: Australian education system at the moment in your eyes? I

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Speaker 1: know that you have free free school dot org are

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Speaker 1: you so if you're interested in having a look at

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Speaker 1: that everyone, I've looked for a little bit, but I've

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Speaker 1: been on there quite a few times and it's amazing.

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Speaker 1: Free school one word, free school dot org dot au,

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Speaker 1: which is an amazing resource that David and a bunch

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Speaker 1: of other people have created at no cost to Australian students.

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Speaker 1: But what's your current what's your hot take on education

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Speaker 1: at the moment?

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Speaker 3: David, it's never been worse. So the Australian education system

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Speaker 3: on any benchmark, any benchmark, has never ever been worse,

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Speaker 3: and it is not improving and has shown no signs

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Speaker 3: of improving since we've been accurately measuring it since about

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Speaker 3: two thousand. It's been on a continuous do Ownwood trajectory.

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Speaker 3: So the big question a lot of people ask is why,

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Speaker 3: And the answer is a lot simpler than most people

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Speaker 3: would tell you, which is that we've inserted for profit

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Speaker 3: organizations into the delivery of education in this country and

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Speaker 3: have essentially proven that doing so rex education systems. So

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Speaker 3: what I mean by that is what most Australians call

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Speaker 3: private schools, which are not private schools. They receive just

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Speaker 3: as much government funding as so called government schools, but

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Speaker 3: they also have the right to charge fees, and inserting

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Speaker 3: those into the education system has wrecked the one thing

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Speaker 3: that makes education systems work, and that's equity. Education is

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Speaker 3: a public good, meaning its purpose beyond the individual purpose.

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Speaker 3: The individual purposes, I guess you've learned stuff, but from

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Speaker 3: a society's perspective, its purpose is to raise all boats.

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Speaker 3: Societies with where most people are educated do better than

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Speaker 3: societies where most people aren't. It's a pretty obvious thing

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Speaker 3: to say, but for some reason people forget it. And

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Speaker 3: so the education system is not charity, it's not a gift.

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Speaker 3: It's something designed to increase the capability of the population.

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Speaker 3: So it's a public good. And as soon as you

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Speaker 3: insert into that competitive pressures with private organizations, what tends

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Speaker 3: to happen is that those organizations spend a lot of

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Speaker 3: their money competing with each other and with the public

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Speaker 3: system for the students that they know will do well.

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Speaker 3: Why do they want the students who they know who

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Speaker 3: will do well because it's great for marketing, which is

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Speaker 3: coming back to the start. Why do they want it

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Speaker 3: to be good for their marketing Because they've got to

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Speaker 3: compete with each other and with the public system. And

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Speaker 3: so you push an education system away from its primary purpose,

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Speaker 3: which is to take all comers and turn them into

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Speaker 3: better or more educated people, and divert massive resources towards

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Speaker 3: internal competition and fighting over the kids who will do well.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, Yes, yes, have there been private schools around though

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Speaker 1: forever haven't.

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Speaker 3: They There's always been private school Every major education system

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Speaker 3: has private schools, but they have actual private schools So

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Speaker 3: if you look at say an education system like the

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Speaker 3: United States or the United Kingdom, which are close models

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Speaker 3: for US, they have about six percent of their schools

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Speaker 3: are private, and they are truly private. They are not

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Speaker 3: subsidized in any way by government. In the United States,

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Speaker 3: it's prohibited because the government can't get involved in funding

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Speaker 3: religious institutions. And in the United Kingdom it's just a

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Speaker 3: matter of policy. They did used to be funded by

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Speaker 3: governments or assisted by governments, and they decided they weren't

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Speaker 3: going to do that anymore. And so in both cases

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Speaker 3: about six percent are fully privately funded. So in those systems,

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Speaker 3: what people say is, well, you've got a choice. You

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Speaker 3: can be publicly funded and go to a public school,

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Speaker 3: which is ninety four percent of the schools, or you

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Speaker 3: can opt out and pay your own freight. And that's

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Speaker 3: pretty much the way it is in most of the world.

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Speaker 3: And that percentage of about six percent, So there are

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Speaker 3: about six percent of the population who say, you know what,

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Speaker 3: I don't want my kid in a public system. I'm

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Speaker 3: prepared to pay for them to be educated privately, so

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Speaker 3: I'm opting out. And they don't expect government money to

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Speaker 3: assist them, and they don't get it. In Australia, it's very,

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Speaker 3: very different. In Australia, it's about thirty five to thirty

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Speaker 3: seven percent of the system are so called private schools.

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Speaker 3: So why is it so much bigger Because in Australia

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Speaker 3: you can opt out of the government schools and still

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Speaker 3: collect all the money you would have received had your

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Speaker 3: child attended a government school, So you're not really opting out.

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Speaker 3: You're getting the same money as if your child still

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Speaker 3: attended government school and you're being charged fees. So Australia

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Speaker 3: is unique in the world in that sense in that

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Speaker 3: we contribute huge amounts of public money and the figures

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Speaker 3: here are truly mind blowing. You know, there are many,

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Speaker 3: many billions of dollars of public money to private enterprises

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Speaker 3: to run a schooling system that would be run cheaper

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Speaker 3: and better where it's simply run as a government system

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Speaker 3: like it is in every other country in the world. Now,

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Speaker 3: the problem with that is that we're wasting billions filling

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Speaker 3: the pockets of for profit organizations. Now people often say

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Speaker 3: to me, oh, yeah, but the local Catholics not a

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Speaker 3: for profit organization, and you know they're not reporting profits

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Speaker 3: from their schools. Well, there's profit and there's profit. There's

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Speaker 3: the profit you get when you have a corporation and

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Speaker 3: you pay dividends, and that's a profit. But there's other

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Speaker 3: kinds of profit. I mean, I guarantee you the head

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Speaker 3: master at the local Anglican college is being paid probably five, six,

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Speaker 3: seven times as much as the head master at the

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Speaker 3: state school next door to end. So that's a profit.

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Speaker 3: You know. Putting in you know, saunas and Olympic swimming

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Speaker 3: pools and equestrian centers is profit. So none of it

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Speaker 3: improves the outcomes from an education perspective, but it does

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Speaker 3: improve the marketability of the school. So the problem we've

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Speaker 3: got in Australia is that when we decided to do this,

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Speaker 3: and this is a relatively recent thing that we've done

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Speaker 3: in Australia. So until nineteen sixty two, no Australian pri

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Speaker 3: at school received government money, not a cent, not a

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Speaker 3: single cent. In nineteen sixty two they started giving private schools,

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Speaker 3: church schools government money. Now why hadn't it been done

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Speaker 3: before that, because one hundred years earlier, at the start

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Speaker 3: of our education system, we'd made a decision collectively not

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Speaker 3: to give money to church schools. Rather like the United

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Speaker 3: States has today, and every politician since then had decided

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Speaker 3: it was too much of a political risk to risk

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Speaker 3: giving money back to the churches until nineteen sixty two

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Speaker 3: when the Catholics said, we are so broke, we are

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Speaker 3: going under and we are going to flood your school

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Speaker 3: systems with all of our kids, and the government's cave

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Speaker 3: to it and started handing the money. So that was

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Speaker 3: the start of it, and it took us down a

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Speaker 3: path that no other country in the world had gone down.

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Speaker 3: And at the time people said this is bad news.

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Speaker 3: This will destroy equity in the education system, it will

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Speaker 3: destroy our educational performance. It turns out, though we're right,

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Speaker 3: that was our high point in terms of educational performance.

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Speaker 3: It's been downhill ever since.

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Speaker 1: Where does Australia rank in the world academically, Tiff, can

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Speaker 1: you look that up? Like? Where do we? I'm sure

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Speaker 1: there's a global academic ranking? Or who are the best

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Speaker 1: students or who get the best?

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Speaker 3: There are several Probably the most comprehensive one is a

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Speaker 3: test that's done I think it's every two or four

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Speaker 3: years and has been published since two thousand. There's been

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Speaker 3: ones that have been done before that. There was a

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Speaker 3: maths and science one done before that, depending which measure

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Speaker 3: you use, Australia was doing really well in about two thousand,

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Speaker 3: so we were generally coming in about sixth or seventh

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Speaker 3: in the OECD, which is not bad. And now where

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Speaker 3: we've plummeted, I think it's around twelve thirteenth, fourteenth something

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Speaker 3: like that in the OECD. So it's been a downward trajectory,

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Speaker 3: you know, pretty much since we started measuring things. And

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Speaker 3: if you ask, well, well, who is the best, it's

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Speaker 3: generally in those measures at the moment it's coming in

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Speaker 3: around China, Hong Kong, Singapore, Korea tend to outperform everybody.

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Speaker 3: And not only they outperforming everybody, they're doing better than

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Speaker 3: even they were in the previous year's tests. So and

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Speaker 3: Australia you could say, oh, well, maybe there's something, you know,

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Speaker 3: some reason for that. Maybe it's the way, maybe it's

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Speaker 3: a cultural thing, maybe it's you know, whatever it is,

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Speaker 3: but it doesn't cut it, because our results are worse

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Speaker 3: when we only compare it to ourselves rather than just

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Speaker 3: comparing it to everybody else. Like the average fifteen year

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Speaker 3: old in Australia is now a year and a half

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Speaker 3: behind where the average fifteen year old was in the

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Speaker 3: year two thousand.

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Speaker 1: So hang on, that is so that's in twenty four years,

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Speaker 1: they're a year and a half. So developmentally, you mean.

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Speaker 3: From the tests, from the test, So these are maths, writing,

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Speaker 3: you know, science tests.

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Speaker 1: Comprehension, blah blah blah wow.

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Speaker 3: Because these tests are standardized on fifteen year olds, right,

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Speaker 3: so that they are givenm to a cohort of fifteen

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Speaker 3: year olds every time they do it, and they and

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Speaker 3: it's meant to measure the same things over and over

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Speaker 3: and over again. So so I think it's less interesting

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Speaker 3: to compare ourselves to other countries and more interesting to

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Speaker 3: compare ourselves to ourselves. And that's not good news.

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Speaker 1: How'd you go, Chiff?

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Speaker 2: When I put in one?

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Speaker 1: Now my browsers, Now now you're looking at shot shoes.

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Speaker 3: And looking and cat memes. Ah, here we go.

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Speaker 2: I when I plugged in where there's Australian rank in education,

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Speaker 2: it says Australia's education ranking varies depending on the criteria used.

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Speaker 2: According to UNICEF, Australia ranks thirty nine out of forty one,

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Speaker 2: high in middle class income countries achieving quality education. But

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Speaker 2: then it says our world class universities are ranked in

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Speaker 2: the world's best and the country is second in the

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Speaker 2: OECD for education and educational outcomes. In terms of student performance,

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Speaker 2: Australian fifteen year old's rank ninth in the world for

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Speaker 2: reading and science and tenth for maths.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I doubt that ninth and really I don't know.

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Speaker 3: I mean it depends, it depends what year you're looking at.

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Speaker 3: So it's a moving target. But the consistent message that

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Speaker 3: has been coming through is that it has never gotten better.

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Speaker 3: It's been getting worse and worse and worse. And sure

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Speaker 3: we'll come in off a high base compared to many

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Speaker 3: many other countries. I mean, we had and still do

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Speaker 3: have a high quality education system in world terms. It's

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Speaker 3: just going backwards very very quickly. The other thing that

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Speaker 3: is worth mentioning about it is that as part of

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Speaker 3: those tests they do something called an equity measure, which

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Speaker 3: is what is your chance if you are in the

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Speaker 3: bottom quartile by inco So sorry, I should say income

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Speaker 3: is the greatest predictor of performance in the Australian education system.

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Speaker 3: The more money your family has, the more likely you

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Speaker 3: are to do well. So if you want to know

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Speaker 3: whether a child's going to do well. All you need

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Speaker 3: to know really is how wealthy their parents are. And

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Speaker 3: private schools use that as part of their marketing because

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Speaker 3: they flip it and say, well, it's because of us

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Speaker 3: that the wealthy kids are doing well. It's actually the reverse.

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Speaker 3: It's because the wealthy kids go to those schools that

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Speaker 3: those schools look like they're doing well. So wealth it

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Speaker 3: simply gives you more advantage. It gives you more of

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Speaker 3: a head start, it gives you more resources, it gives

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Speaker 3: you more access to better quality teaching. You would know

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Speaker 3: this from sport. There's a cumulative effect in sport. I forgot.

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Speaker 3: It's got a really fancy name, and I.

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Speaker 1: Just want it.

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Speaker 3: The Matthew effect. It's where if you are in the

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Speaker 3: so a lot of sports have a birth date bias,

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Speaker 3: right where if the sport age group starts in January,

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Speaker 3: then kids who are born in January do better than

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Speaker 3: kids who are born in December, because when they're a

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Speaker 3: five year old, that's a year's worth a difference. That's

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Speaker 3: going to make a big difference to a five year old.

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Speaker 3: And if you're slightly better when you're a five year old,

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Speaker 3: you get a slightly better coach when you're a six

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Speaker 3: year old, and you get a slightly better coach when

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Speaker 3: you're a seven year old, and you get a coach

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Speaker 3: when you're eight year old, etc. And that effect flows

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Speaker 3: all the way through until you start looking at a

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Speaker 3: professional sports team, say like an AFL team, and you

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Speaker 3: start to notice and this is true. The study has

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Speaker 3: been done that the birthdays cluster around the start point

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Speaker 3: for the age groups in that sport. So if that's

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Speaker 3: a July start date sport, the birthdays are all in

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Speaker 3: July or August. If it's a January start date sport,

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Speaker 3: they're all in January or February, And that's that effect

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Speaker 3: flowing through. And the same thing happens in education, not

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Speaker 3: so much with age, but if you've got a slight

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Speaker 3: advantage at the start, then you are performing slightly better

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Speaker 3: than your peers, and you might get access to better

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Speaker 3: teaching the next year, and then better teaching than a

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Speaker 3: year after that, and then better teaching the year after that.

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Speaker 3: So that effect accumulates and correlates most closely to income.

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Speaker 3: So why does this all matter? Well, they have this

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Speaker 3: equity measure, which says, what are your chances in a

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Speaker 3: given education a good education system, that shouldn't matter. In

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Speaker 3: a good education system, it shouldn't matter how rich you

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Speaker 3: are or how good your parents are, because brilliance or

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Speaker 3: genius is not determined by income. It's determined by genetics.

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Speaker 3: So you know the these They have this measure called

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Speaker 3: an equity measure, which says, if you are in the

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Speaker 3: bottom quartile, so you're the bottom quarter of the population

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Speaker 3: in terms of income, what are your chances of getting

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Speaker 3: to the top quarter of academic performance, so you start

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Speaker 3: at the bottom from an income perspective, what are your

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Speaker 3: chances of getting to the top the high performing education

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Speaker 3: systems in the world, which is you know the ones

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Speaker 3: I said to you before the agent ones. Mostly your

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Speaker 3: chance of getting to the top is seventy five percent,

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Speaker 3: so you have a seventy five percent chance of getting

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Speaker 3: out of the low income trap that keeps your educational

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Speaker 3: performance that low and getting into the high performance academic outcome.

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Speaker 3: In Australia, that percentage is twenty nine percent, so you

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Speaker 3: have a only twenty nine percent chance of escaping your

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Speaker 3: destiny as determined by your income in Australia, which the way,

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Speaker 3: is lower than the OECD average of thirty three percent.

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Speaker 3: So bad education systems don't let you escape your destiny

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Speaker 3: as determined by your income. Good education systems make it irrelevant.

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Speaker 1: Wow, I am, I was trying to find I saw

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Speaker 1: some some is it Norway? Finland? Is it one where

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Speaker 1: like they've got a phenomenal education system where every teacher

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Speaker 1: is the minimum qualification is a master's degree for all teachers.

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Speaker 3: And Finland you're talking, you're thinking about right, Yeah, Finland

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Speaker 3: has a system that is entirely, entirely public, So there

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Speaker 3: are no private schools in Finland, and you are sent

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Speaker 3: to your local school, so you don't get a choice

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Speaker 3: about where you go. You go to the school whose

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Speaker 3: geographic area you live in. End of story. So resources

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Speaker 3: are distributed evenly and equitably throughout their education system. And

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Speaker 3: now people bang on about that thing about having a

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Speaker 3: master's degree. That's really just an artifact of the way

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Speaker 3: their tertiary, their university education system works. The studies on

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Speaker 3: degrees and performance in teaching tell us absolutely clearly that

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Speaker 3: it makes absolutely no difference to the performance of a

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Speaker 3: teacher whether they have a master's or not. So don't

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Speaker 3: judge a school on the basis of whether it's teachers

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Speaker 3: have got master's degrees because it makes no difference. What

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Speaker 3: makes a difference is their experience. So how long have

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Speaker 3: they been a teacher? And you want that the answer

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Speaker 3: to that to be preferably more than three years because teaching,

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Speaker 3: like every other job, you're learning on the job in

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Speaker 3: the first three years. But if they've been there longer

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Speaker 3: than three years, then their experience matters much more than

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Speaker 3: any master's degree they could do.

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Speaker 1: So true, so true. Obviously I can't say too much,

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Speaker 1: but I had I had a couple of people work

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Speaker 1: for me early days in my gyms who had PhD,

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Speaker 1: so literally doctors of exercise physiology, and they did not

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Speaker 1: do great because they just couldn't train people. They couldn't

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Speaker 1: they couldn't build connection and rapport, they didn't understand, they

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Speaker 1: didn't have great social or emotional or situational intelligence. You know,

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Speaker 1: one or two were good. But yeah, so that doesn't

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Speaker 1: surprise me that little fact. What about like China and

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Speaker 1: Singapore and the like, who kind of that above average?

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Speaker 1: Is that because culturally there's a big focus on the

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Speaker 1: importance of education.

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Speaker 3: That's that's usually the knee jerk answer people go to.

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Speaker 3: I think that's probably more racist than anything else.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, how was that racist? I'm saying this much.

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Speaker 3: Everyone's their story about the smart Asian kid in their class.

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Speaker 1: You know, I would have thought if I had have

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Speaker 1: said they were dumb, that would be racist. I feel like.

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Speaker 3: A kids Asians, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I feel like that's a positive attribute to say they're smart. Yep,

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Speaker 1: go on.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but it's also not the explanation. So the explanation

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Speaker 3: is that they have a fundamentally different approach to teaching.

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Speaker 3: And this is really interesting because when you graph the

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Speaker 3: amount of time see Australia, America, the UK have a

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Speaker 3: system that says the best teaching is having a teacher

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Speaker 3: in front of a class all the time. That's where

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Speaker 3: you want to teachers. You want them in front of

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Speaker 3: your classes. And so the average hours in class for

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Speaker 3: a teacher in the UK, the US, Australia are all

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Speaker 3: about the same. It's about twenty five hours a week.

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Speaker 3: So the average secondary school teacher spends about twenty five

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Speaker 3: hours a week standing in front of a class. The

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Speaker 3: average teacher in Singapore or China or Korea spends about

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Speaker 3: half that time standing in front of a class.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 3: And the other interesting thing that you want to put

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Speaker 3: up against that is the average size of the class.

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Speaker 3: So the average size of a classroom in Australia is

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Speaker 3: about twenty to twenty two, so there's about twenty to

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Speaker 3: twenty two kids in a class. Now, this is quite different,

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Speaker 3: by the way, to when Australia was performing really really well,

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Speaker 3: which is in the nineteen sixties, when it was about

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Speaker 3: forty was the average in a class. So twenty two

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Speaker 3: in a class in Australia twenty five hours in front

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Speaker 3: of it for the teacher. In Asia, it's about thirteen

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Speaker 3: hours in front of the classroom per week, and the

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Speaker 3: average class size is closer to forty. So the two

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Speaker 3: things that we are constantly told matter in our education

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Speaker 3: system don't apparently matter in the systems that are flogging

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Speaker 3: us that.

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Speaker 1: Which is of counterintuitive. Those two those two bits of

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Speaker 1: information or data, they seem yeah.

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Speaker 3: So the big question then is why what would what do?

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Speaker 3: They can't just be those two things. There must be

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Speaker 3: something different about what they're doing. And the answer is

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Speaker 3: the teachers are not in front of their class because

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Speaker 3: they're observing someone else in front of their class. So

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Speaker 3: they are running as pairs or more than pairs where

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Speaker 3: it's actually two teachers in a classroom. One of them

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Speaker 3: is teaching, the other one is observing them, and maybe

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Speaker 3: there's even a third one they're mentoring them. So they

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Speaker 3: are running as a team and that it is a

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Speaker 3: collegiate approach to teaching, whereas in Australia and the United

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Speaker 3: States the United Kingdom, the approach to teaching is it's

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Speaker 3: your class your classroom. We throw you in there, you

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Speaker 3: teach for an hour, we throw away the key. No

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Speaker 3: one's going to watch you, no one's going to observe you,

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Speaker 3: no one's going to give you any peer instruction, no

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Speaker 3: one's going to give you any mentoring other than the

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Speaker 3: usual to conflict type thing once a year where we

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Speaker 3: say yeah, Bob can still teach. So that's what goes

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Speaker 3: on in Australian English UK classrooms is we tell teachers

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Speaker 3: this is your ship, go run it. In those Asian

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Speaker 3: classrooms there's nothing of the sort going on. It is

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Speaker 3: a very team based thing where there's constant assessment from

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Speaker 3: your peers, constant mentoring from your peers, and you are

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Speaker 3: also delivering it to your peers. So it's a team sport.

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Speaker 3: In Asia and in Australia. It's very much an individual sport.

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Speaker 1: So there's somebody who's listening to this.

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Speaker 3: Just now, let me just finish on Sorry, I wanted

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Speaker 3: to finish on the class sized thing. So how do

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Speaker 3: you pay for it? Well, you have twice as many

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Speaker 3: kids in the class?

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yeah, well that makes sense. It's I don't know,

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Speaker 1: I'm surprised, but kind of not when you when you

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Speaker 1: explain it. So somebody's listening to this and they've got

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Speaker 1: to put their kid in a school in the next

435
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 1: year or two, whether it's primary school or secondary school.

436
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 1: Have you got any advice for people trying to figure

437
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 1: out how to do that in a way which is

438
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 1: best for the kid.

439
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, so there's a couple. There's actually quite a long

440
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 3: list of things to look for in schools from the outside.

441
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 3: So that book that I wrote that the website is

442
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 3: based on the Free school The book is called Free

443
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 3: Schools and it came out twenty fourteen. It actually has

444
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 3: the whole back half of it is a guide to

445
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 3: a parent for a parent on what to look for

446
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 3: from the outside because schools are hard to judge from

447
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 3: the outside because they all kind of look the same

448
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,400
Speaker 3: and you've got a lot of marketing, particularly if they're

449
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 3: asking you to pay for it, and it's so what

450
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 3: I've done there is go through all of that and

451
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:56,879
Speaker 3: weed out the stuff that doesn't matter, like you know,

452
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,119
Speaker 3: class sizes and all that sort of thing, and talk

453
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 3: about the things that do matter. So there are three

454
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 3: things that really really matter in a school. The number

455
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:09,639
Speaker 3: one most important thing in a school is none of

456
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,200
Speaker 3: the things anyone would ever say, but which as soon

457
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,680
Speaker 3: as I say it, you'll say, of course, which is

458
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 3: don't have a principal who is a psychopath?

459
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 1: Okay, how do we well? The problem with psychopaths, as

460
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 1: you know, is they're often intelligent and charismatic and charming

461
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 1: and good at job interviews.

462
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,879
Speaker 3: There's often a really, really good way to tell in

463
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 3: a school, which is go and visit them in their office.

464
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 3: Psychopaths like are really showing. Their office is their castle.

465
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 3: Their office is There's awards all over the walls, there's

466
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,879
Speaker 3: pictures of them meeting the Prime Minister, there's pictures of

467
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 3: them accepting awards. There's all sorts of memorabilia all over

468
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 3: the place. It's the most glorious office you've ever seen

469
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 3: in your life. You go into a principal's office and

470
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 3: it looks like that, turn around and leave. You go

471
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 3: into a principal's office where he's got the same desk

472
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 3: as everybody else in the school. He's got a stack

473
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,920
Speaker 3: of papers on it, you know, a third hand, three

474
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:22,960
Speaker 3: hundred year old computer sitting on it, and is just

475
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 3: you know, getting on with the work. That's the kind

476
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 3: of guy you want to be looking at.

477
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 1: Soor girl or girl or girl? Yes, so now you're

478
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 1: getting in trouble.

479
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 3: And in all primary schools probably it will be a girl. So,

480
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 3: which we do about another day, is why is it

481
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 3: the primary schools are dominated by a female workforce? We

482
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 3: can do that another day. But anyway, so.

483
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 1: The one is, don't don't have a principal who's a psychopath. Yeah,

484
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 1: what's two?

485
00:28:55,440 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 3: Two is have us a a staff group that are

486
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 3: working on ways even though they are restrained by being

487
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 3: in a system that tells them they've got to go

488
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 3: into their own classroom and ignore everybody else, but are

489
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 3: still trying to even though that's the plan. Have some

490
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 3: sort of peer mentoring going on in their organization that

491
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 3: is more than ticker box stuff, so where they're actually

492
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 3: on their own time perhaps or before school or whatever.

493
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 3: It is organizing peer mentoring type meetings where they're talking

494
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 3: to each other and their leader about how to do

495
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 3: their job better. Wow. So that kind of thing happening

496
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 3: in a school is a very very very good sign.

497
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 3: And then the very last thing is look at the results.

498
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 3: And I don't mean the results everyone tells you to

499
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 3: look at So everyone says, I can go to my

500
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 3: school and you can see this school's got all the

501
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 3: green high performing results, etc. All that tells you is

502
00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 3: that the school has got a lot of rich parents.

503
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:04,479
Speaker 3: What you want to look for is progress, and if

504
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 3: you have to drill down into it. But on that

505
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,959
Speaker 3: Naplan website, on the my school website, once you go

506
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 3: past all the glitzy front end stuff with all the

507
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 3: green things that show that they've got rich parents or not,

508
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 3: there is a bit called progress and if you go

509
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 3: into that, it produces a beautiful graph that tells you

510
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 3: whether the kids in this school do better than kids

511
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 3: with the same demographic characteristics. Those are the schools you want.

512
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 3: So if you match these kids with the same with

513
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 3: kids with the same demographic characteristics all over the country,

514
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 3: which is what that does, it's a powerful database and

515
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 3: they come out better. That's a school you want because

516
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 3: they are beating the odds. They're getting back to that

517
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 3: equity thing that I mentioned at the start, where they're

518
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 3: improving your chances of success by giving you performance that

519
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 3: outstrips what your economics says you should do.

520
00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 1: Such a fucking interesting chat, this chat, I know nothing

521
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 1: about all this stuff. I've just been informed and enlightened.

522
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,480
Speaker 1: We've got to go. But before we go, well done,

523
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 1: you just explain to people quickly, if you would be

524
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 1: so gracious, you're honor free school dot org dot au.

525
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 1: What is that? Just tell people what that is?

526
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 3: So that is a library. So I'll give you a

527
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 3: slight bit of background. Sorry, I'll go a little bit

528
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 3: longer here than just got it.

529
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 1: We've got all the time.

530
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 3: So when I was doing the research for the book

531
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 3: Free Schools, it became really really clear that there was

532
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 3: a type of teaching that worked really effectively with kids

533
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 3: who had access to very few resources, very few education

534
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 3: and so poor kids in the United States. And what

535
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 3: they figured out was that the average teenage kid, I

536
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 3: know this is going to come a shock to you,

537
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 3: but does not have a very long attention span. And

538
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,600
Speaker 3: they found that putting them in a class and asking

539
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 3: them to concentrate on anything for seventy minutes was just

540
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 3: not going to happen. They found out that actual new

541
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 3: content delivery in the average high school classroom was less

542
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 3: than ten minutes, and the rest of it was you

543
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 3: know whatever, practice, padding, chatting, whatever, but the actual delivery

544
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 3: was only about ten minutes. And they said, well, why

545
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 3: don't we put the ten minutes in an instructional video

546
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 3: where we just tell the kids ten minutes worth of

547
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 3: what they need to know and then and we get

548
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:24,719
Speaker 3: them to watch that before they come to class, and

549
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 3: then we spend the seventy minutes in class practicing whatever

550
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 3: it is. So that's called flipped classrooms, where you do

551
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 3: it that way. You put a video out that the

552
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 3: kicker and just watch on their phone or whatever, and

553
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 3: they can then come to class and actually practice it. Now,

554
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 3: that's a great idea, except you need the videos to

555
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 3: be created, and in Australia they just didn't exist so

556
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 3: or they were hard to find. So my kids would

557
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 3: come home they hadn't understood the math they were supposed

558
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 3: to be doing that day in school. They'd get on

559
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 3: the YouTube and they'd Google up whatever it was, and

560
00:32:57,480 --> 00:32:59,719
Speaker 3: they'd get some idiot American professor who may or may

561
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 3: not be right, teaching them something that may or may

562
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 3: not align with the curriculum that they were supposed to

563
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 3: be learning right, But that's what they got. So I

564
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 3: decided I'd start a charity that addressed that issue, which

565
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 3: is get Australian teachers teaching the things they teach every

566
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 3: single day in their classrooms, line up their content with

567
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 3: the curriculum, make their videos more no more than ten

568
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 3: minutes long, and publish them. Free school dot org to

569
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 3: you is eight and a half thousand of those videos

570
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 3: Australian teachers teaching in alignment with the curriculum. So when

571
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 3: your kid doesn't know what on earth it was that

572
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 3: the teacher that was standing in front of them that day,

573
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 3: because they happened to be the pea teacher filling in

574
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 3: for a week, doesn't know what on earth they were

575
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 3: supposed to learn, they can go home. They can see

576
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 3: ten other teachers from Australia teaching exactly the same content

577
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 3: in ten minute bytes. That's what free School is. And

578
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 3: there's a new thing we've added to it, which is

579
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 3: we've gotten teachers now well, actually they have. This was

580
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 3: their idea to go through the external exams for this

581
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 3: is for Queensland, for maths, so far, go through all

582
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 3: the external exams, the past papers, pull out all the

583
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:11,440
Speaker 3: past paper questions, line them up by topic, and teach

584
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 3: you how to do those problems and work through them

585
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,359
Speaker 3: with you in a short video. So the kick can

586
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 3: go to any particular thing they're supposed to be studying,

587
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 3: find a teacher or several teachers showing them how to

588
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:27,800
Speaker 3: do those problems which are pretty likely to be on

589
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 3: the external paper.

590
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 1: It's you never cease to amaze me. Yeah, I don't

591
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 1: know how on earth you do all the shit that

592
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:40,360
Speaker 1: you do. But it's like I don't know you and

593
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,279
Speaker 1: I have a love hate relationship, but you do do something.

594
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 1: You do do some incredible shit. You are very annoying,

595
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 1: but you do do some very good shit. Now you're not.

596
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:52,240
Speaker 1: Really that's amazing.

597
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 3: Besides, I try to be annoying.

598
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:57,400
Speaker 1: No you're not. You're not at all. You just remind

599
00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:59,360
Speaker 1: me how clever i'm not every time I talk to you.

600
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 1: But it's good. He school dot org dot au. Is

601
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:06,480
Speaker 1: that it? Have you got a last final?

602
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:09,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're done that'll do us. That'll do us for today.

603
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 1: All right, we'll say goodbye affair, Tiff. I want you

604
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 1: to jump on tonight and start studying.

605
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:17,360
Speaker 2: I was just I was just having a quick squizze

606
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 2: at the website. Oh yeah, yeah, there's a photo of

607
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 2: David that I never get to see. You know, there's

608
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:27,839
Speaker 2: there's four faces behind the organization, and three of them

609
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:32,720
Speaker 2: have these incredible professional photos. And someone has obviously dug

610
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 2: through david archives and found the best that he was.

611
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 1: Do you know who? Do you know who? Gilespo's analogous

612
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 1: to like Who's who is? Like Banksy?

613
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 3: You know, like artist who? You never know who he is?

614
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 3: He's a mystery.

615
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's like a fucking enigma and he does all

616
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:57,880
Speaker 1: this incredible ship. No one knows what you're like that

617
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,120
Speaker 1: and if people are thinking, what is Craig talking about?

618
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 1: So David's done hundreds of episodes with us. I don't

619
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 1: know how many, but probably a hundred, and I've never

620
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 1: seen his I think I've seen his face once in

621
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:14,279
Speaker 1: a photo, but he has his screen black like like

622
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:18,439
Speaker 1: he's some fucking covert operative every time. So he gets

623
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:19,279
Speaker 1: to see my hand.

624
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 3: It's so that I can it's said that I can

625
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:22,760
Speaker 3: sub in an AI when on board.

626
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. The real David's actually out playing golf.

627
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 3: That's right, exactly.

628
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 1: All right, Well say goodbye off heair but for the minute.

629
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:33,840
Speaker 1: Thanks mate, appreciate you.

630
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:34,879
Speaker 3: See you later