Speaker 1: Show, good evening.
Speaker 2: Well coming up on the show tonight, and it's a
Speaker 2: massive show. Tonight Peter Dutton goes all in on nuclear
Speaker 2: We'll have a look at whether the polls.
Speaker 1: Are on his side.
Speaker 2: Also tonight, he was one of the country's most powerful bureaucrats.
Speaker 2: Former Home Affairs Boss Mike Bozzullo would join Me Live
Speaker 2: for an exclusive interview to discuss China's bullying of cheng
Speaker 2: Lei Albanizi's approach to China and the threat of war
Speaker 2: that coming up and in a special and emotional interview.
Speaker 2: Two survivors of the October seven massacre are on the show,
Speaker 2: a mother held at gunpoint and a local police officer
Speaker 2: who fought off terrorists and saved two hundred lives.
Speaker 1: You don't want to miss that.
Speaker 2: But first now to Peter Dutton's major nuclear energy plan,
Speaker 2: which has drawn fierce political battle lines.
Speaker 1: As you know by now.
Speaker 2: Peter Dutton today announced seven sites for nuclear reactors in Queensland,
Speaker 2: New South Wales, Victoria, WA and South Australia.
Speaker 1: Here he was making that announcement, what will.
Speaker 3: Happen in Osborne, where Premier Malanowski is signed up to
Speaker 3: the Orchest deal. There will be a reactor there where
Speaker 3: sub mariners in Australian uniforms will be sleeping in the
Speaker 3: submarine alongside the reactor in a safe way in Henderson
Speaker 3: in WA. Then Premier McGowan signed up to the Orchest
Speaker 3: deal where the nuclear reactors in the submarines will be
Speaker 3: there alongside residential and industrial areas. So those premiers have
Speaker 3: shown a level of pragmatism. Before we signed up to Orcust,
Speaker 3: nobody believed that it could happen. Everyone said that the
Speaker 3: premiers wouldn't.
Speaker 4: Agree to it.
Speaker 3: They did, so we'll work with the premiers because it's
Speaker 3: in our national interest.
Speaker 2: Well, the opposition to his policy today extensive, with every
Speaker 2: labor figure in the country opposing it in the strongest
Speaker 2: possible terms.
Speaker 5: We know that mister Dutton wants to slow down the
Speaker 5: role out of renewables and he wants to introduce the
Speaker 5: most expensive form of energy that's slow to build. But
Speaker 5: today we've seen no costs, we've seen no gigawatts, we've
Speaker 5: seen no detail.
Speaker 4: This is a joke.
Speaker 3: It is the worst combination of economic and ideological stupidity.
Speaker 6: We're not supporting nuclear power. I think our state laws
Speaker 6: are pretty clear when it comes to planning, but whether
Speaker 6: there's some overriding constitutional question that he can pursue.
Speaker 7: Nuclear energy is toxic, it's risky, it's more expensive.
Speaker 2: The announcement was always going to be controversial, and there
Speaker 2: will be a massive scare campaign from labor, no question.
Speaker 8: I'm sort of staggered that we haven't heard aim and
Speaker 8: talk about three headed Fish and the Simpsons and Springfield,
Speaker 8: all the other things that you had to see a
Speaker 8: lot of over the next of a while, because we're
Speaker 8: going to have the mother of all scare campaigns that
Speaker 8: has played out before us over the next in a while.
Speaker 1: And the scare campaign kicked off today.
Speaker 2: Just like with medi scare, this emotional fear campaign could
Speaker 2: well be very effective. But what do these labor politicians
Speaker 2: say about the thirty two countries internationally which already rely
Speaker 2: on nuclear energy. Nuclear is a successful part of the
Speaker 2: energy mix in Canada, Mexico, the USA, Argentina, Brazil, Belgium, Finland, France, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland,
Speaker 2: the UK.
Speaker 1: The list goes on.
Speaker 2: Sky News reporter Annalie's Nielsen visited Canada's nuclear reactor sites
Speaker 2: to see their model, and it's said to be close
Speaker 2: to the one that Dutton is pursuing.
Speaker 9: Nuclear power has been operating safely in Canada since the
Speaker 9: nineteen sixties. The province of Ontario has three nuclear facilities
Speaker 9: that generates around sixty percent of the energy here and
Speaker 9: is often held up as the model to export to Australia.
Speaker 2: But Peter Dutton left himself open to attack today by
Speaker 2: refusing to detail the cost of this policy. At least
Speaker 2: of the moment, it unquestionably will be expensive, but then
Speaker 2: so is the renewable energy transition. There are also remaining
Speaker 2: questions about nuclear waste now. It was Anthony Albanesi himself,
Speaker 2: as part of Kevin Rudd's team in opposition, who campaigned against.
Speaker 1: Nuclear in two thousand and seven.
Speaker 2: At the time, Ziggi Switkowski recommended to John Howard, who
Speaker 2: is the PM, that Australia consider nuclear as part of
Speaker 2: its action to curb emissions or John Howard, facing a
Speaker 2: loss at the two thousand and seven election, dropped the policy.
Speaker 2: But before that there were TV ads campaign posters just
Speaker 2: like this advert from August two thousand and seven.
Speaker 10: John Howard says a nuclear industry is a solution to
Speaker 10: climate change, but he won't say where the reactor should go.
Speaker 10: He refuses to talk about a list of possible sites
Speaker 10: for reactors that includes Rockhampton, Bunderberg, Mackay, Townsville, the Sunshine Coast,
Speaker 10: even Brydie Island, Queensland. Beautiful one day, nuclear the next.
Speaker 2: And that was a very effective scare campaign back in
Speaker 2: two thousand and seven. Well, Albinizi ran the campaign. He
Speaker 2: knows this area well and he won't hesitate to strike again.
Speaker 6: What's your number one reason? What's your number one message
Speaker 6: to people who live in and around loy Yang, which
Speaker 6: is the site of a potential nuclear reactor.
Speaker 1: What would you say to them.
Speaker 11: That a nuclear reactor is fifteen years away and will
Speaker 11: drive up power prices, lead to more energy and security,
Speaker 11: and lead to less jobs being created. Every economic analysis
Speaker 11: says it doesn't stack up, and that's why it's extraordinary
Speaker 11: that they continue to go down this track.
Speaker 2: Well, he doesn't mention that Labor has already signed up
Speaker 2: to nuclear powered submarines as part of the Orchest deal.
Speaker 2: He also doesn't mentioned that thirty two other countries around
Speaker 2: the world, as I said, rely on nuclear as part
Speaker 2: of their energy mix. And never mind that his solution
Speaker 2: renewable energy won't meet our energy needs alone. What Political
Speaker 2: editor Simon Benson notes today that the more hysterical the
Speaker 2: Prime Minister and his colleagues are inclined to become, the
Speaker 2: more he is lured into presenting as an opposition leader
Speaker 2: rather than a prime minister. And Simon Benson says that
Speaker 2: the nuclear plan is a platform for Peter Dutton's rebrand
Speaker 2: as a leader. He writes that it shifts the dynamic
Speaker 2: from a coalition opposition always opposed to things, as to
Speaker 2: one fighting for something. Well, this may be the case,
Speaker 2: but ultimately the nuclear debate presents the greatest political risk
Speaker 2: for Peter Dutton, who's in recent times been surging ahead
Speaker 2: of Albanezi in the polls. It's virtually unprecedented to have
Speaker 2: such a significant policy contest ahead of a federal election.
Speaker 2: Both leaders say that the next election will be a
Speaker 2: referendum on nuclear energy.
Speaker 3: I'm very happy for the election to be a referendum
Speaker 3: on energy, on nuclear on power prices, on lights going out.
Speaker 5: As we agree, the next election will be a referendum
Speaker 5: on energy policy. Mister Dutton says the next election will
Speaker 5: be a referendum on energy policy. We actually agree with that.
Speaker 5: But here's the news for mister Dutton have a referendum,
Speaker 5: You've gotta have a policy.
Speaker 2: Well, without rob and easy proving himself to be a
Speaker 2: failure of a leader who has destroyed Australian's social cohesion
Speaker 2: and is incapable of governing effectively, Well, if he executes
Speaker 2: this scare campaign properly, it just could be a lifeline
Speaker 2: for him in choosing to pursue this policy contest.
Speaker 1: The stakes for Peter Darton are as high as they
Speaker 1: can get. All Right, As I said, it's a big show.
Speaker 2: I've got an exclusive interview with Mike Bozzullo coming up.
Speaker 2: Also two survivors of the Nova Music Festival.
Speaker 1: But first let's discuss this nuclear debate.
Speaker 2: Let's bring it now Tonight's Political Panel National Senate Leader
Speaker 2: Bridget McKenzie and the Menzies Research Center Executive director Dave Hughes.
Speaker 1: Welcome to you both.
Speaker 2: Bridget, do you think this is a gamble worth taking
Speaker 2: for the Coalition?
Speaker 7: Absolutely, Sharion, I really loved your opening segment. We don't
Speaker 7: see it as a gamble. We see it as providing
Speaker 7: a credible vision for a safe and prosperous, sustainable future
Speaker 7: for our country. We're not just interested getting to net
Speaker 7: zero by twenty fifty. We still want to be a
Speaker 7: sovereign country that cannot just keep the lights on but
Speaker 7: have a fantastic economic growth story in the coming century,
Speaker 7: and that means having affordable, reliable baseload power generation. Now,
Speaker 7: with ninety percent of that reliable baseload going off in
Speaker 7: the next decade, we need something to replace it, and
Speaker 7: wind and solar aren't going to do it. We know that,
Speaker 7: and I'm very, very proud to be part of a
Speaker 7: team that is putting Australia where it should have been
Speaker 7: during Howard's years and actually harnessing the opportunity that nuclear
Speaker 7: power generation brings in a low emissions future.
Speaker 2: Dave, just how big a risk this is for the
Speaker 2: coalition ultimately comes down to the current view of a
Speaker 2: Australians and whether they are going to support this.
Speaker 1: Can you tell us a bit.
Speaker 2: About what some of the recent polls have shown about
Speaker 2: whether Australians do support a move towards.
Speaker 6: Nuclear A lot has changed since that Scare campaign that
Speaker 6: Anthony Alberanesi ran in two thousand and seven. Back then,
Speaker 6: sixty percent of Australians were opposed to nuclear energy. In
Speaker 6: twenty twenty four sixty percent of Australians support nuclear energy.
Speaker 6: We know that because the Low Institute has been tracking
Speaker 6: this issue for a number of years. Labor voters as
Speaker 6: well support nuclear energy. There was a pole from Jim Reed.
Speaker 12: Some of them.
Speaker 6: There was a pole from Jim Reid who runs Resolved
Speaker 6: Strategic recently as well, it showed that only twenty percent
Speaker 6: of labor voters were opposed to nuclear energy. So the
Speaker 6: grounds for a scare campaign are significantly different than they
Speaker 6: were in two thousand and seven. So that's something that
Speaker 6: Anthony Alberanesi needs to factor in. He also needs to
Speaker 6: factor in that if he's running a scare campaign around
Speaker 6: nuclear safety, that scare campaign also undermines the orcut submarines
Speaker 6: that are going to be docked in Adelaide and in Perth,
Speaker 6: our nuclear reactor that's operated safely not too far from
Speaker 6: us in southwestern Sydney as well, So he's going to
Speaker 6: have to be conscious of that if he's looking to
Speaker 6: run another scare campaign.
Speaker 1: And do you think though, this is going to be
Speaker 1: a big political risk.
Speaker 2: I mean, you ran at least the media section of
Speaker 2: the Liberal Party's last federal election campaign or the past
Speaker 2: couple do you think this is a big gamble for
Speaker 2: the coalition.
Speaker 6: Well, it's going to dominate. It's going to be one
Speaker 6: of the issues that's going to dominate the next campaign,
Speaker 6: that's for sure. Peter Dutton's been open about this so
Speaker 6: for the last year, and in that same time his
Speaker 6: vote has strengthened and Anthony Alberonizi's vote's been declining. And
Speaker 6: I think younger Australians in particular, aren't you know, they
Speaker 6: place facts above fear as well. They're more open to
Speaker 6: nuclear as well. So I think they're going to be
Speaker 6: persuaded by the facts in this argument and not spooked
Speaker 6: by three eyed fish and everything else that Labor will
Speaker 6: roll out.
Speaker 2: All right, let's have a look at Labor and p
Speaker 2: Josh Burns And as you know by now, his federal
Speaker 2: office was vandalized overnight by pro Palestinian activists. It was
Speaker 2: what the Jewish MP called a politically motivated attack.
Speaker 1: Have a look. No amount of aggression and violence.
Speaker 13: Here in Australia is going to change what's happening in
Speaker 13: the Middle East. This sort of vandalism, this sort of
Speaker 13: political aggression, has no place in Australia.
Speaker 12: It's enough.
Speaker 2: Bridget you know what I found so moving about Josh's
Speaker 2: comments when he held that press conference earlier today is that
Speaker 2: he made the point that if action isn't taken, there
Speaker 2: is going to be an attack, that this is escalating,
Speaker 2: something worse is going to happen. And we are seeing
Speaker 2: lawlessness in part because our political leaders and the police
Speaker 2: aren't doing anything.
Speaker 1: They're not arresting anyone.
Speaker 7: No, Shari, you know we've talked about this a lot.
Speaker 7: You're exactly right. The permissiveness, if I can use that word,
Speaker 7: of state governments, state police forces, and indeed the language
Speaker 7: being used by the federal government has allowed given tacit approval,
Speaker 7: shall we say, in people expressing their views in this
Speaker 7: conflict at home here domestically in ways that I think
Speaker 7: a reminiscent of the nineteen thirties in Germany. I've been appalled,
Speaker 7: as you have been, as you've highlighted over many, many months,
Speaker 7: what's happening on our suburban streets, in our schools, at
Speaker 7: our universities, in businesses that you would have been appalled
Speaker 7: and shocked about in previous decades that today are being
Speaker 7: almost tacitly approved or sort of waved way as if
Speaker 7: we're all helpless in the face of this sort of behavior.
Speaker 10: We're not.
Speaker 7: We have laws, stop keeping the peace and start up
Speaker 7: holding the law.
Speaker 2: Well said, absolutely agree. And what worries me as well, Dave,
Speaker 2: is that it's not it's a.
Speaker 1: Targeting of Jewish people.
Speaker 2: And we saw it just yet again overnight with Jerry Seinfeld.
Speaker 2: You know he's not a representative of Israel. He's just
Speaker 2: a Jewish comedian. And well, let's have a look at
Speaker 2: what happened again at his show last night.
Speaker 11: You're getting them on your side, can you hear it?
Speaker 4: Good?
Speaker 1: There's the police say you have.
Speaker 9: Shown political feelings, but you don't know where you say that.
Speaker 10: Do you think that ruining the name?
Speaker 4: It doesn't affect me?
Speaker 12: All these people.
Speaker 4: You're ruining their name. Thank you for Tommy.
Speaker 1: Did you like the horse bit before you leave?
Speaker 11: Did you get.
Speaker 4: So good?
Speaker 1: Did you like the whole bit before you left?
Speaker 2: I wish we could obvious see his show, But Dave,
Speaker 2: you know it strikes me and I made this point
Speaker 2: the other night that Jerry Seinfeld has a better grasp
Speaker 2: of security than our Australian federal police. He manages to
Speaker 2: move the pro Palestinians out. Why can't our police do
Speaker 2: the same.
Speaker 6: He got them out there quicker than Sydney University. Yes,
Speaker 6: that's for sure. As you said before, Shari, he's not
Speaker 6: out here as a representative of the Israeli government or
Speaker 6: the Israeli Defense Force. He's not a commentator, a prolific
Speaker 6: commentator on foreign policy issues. He's out here as a
Speaker 6: comedian to entertain. And the reason he was targeted by
Speaker 6: activists is because he's a Jew, and that's something we
Speaker 6: can't tolerate. And I'll be making the same point that
Speaker 6: that's equally concerning if it was a Muslim comedian targeted
Speaker 6: solely on the basis of their religion as well, that
Speaker 6: is something that we cannot tolerate in Australia.
Speaker 2: In twenty twenty four, Absolutely absolutely, bridget I couldn't believe
Speaker 2: this story in the City Morning Herald. Former Prime Minister
Speaker 2: Scott Morrison has been denied entry at least at the moment,
Speaker 2: but currently he has been denied entry from the Elite
Speaker 2: Australian Club. Now this is a controversial club, but the
Speaker 2: club secretary, Michael Solomon, said that they have a policy
Speaker 2: of not commenting on membership nominations.
Speaker 1: Ridget this is outrageous. He's a former prime minister. You
Speaker 1: might not agree with his politics, but his service to
Speaker 1: our country has been enormous.
Speaker 7: This is true, Sharry. But you and I can't join
Speaker 7: the Australia Club either. Let's remember that if I was
Speaker 7: the Prime minister. If I was the Prime Minister, I
Speaker 7: wouldn't be able to join the Australia clubs.
Speaker 4: So and we do have a.
Speaker 7: Former premier here in Victoria that's been unable to join
Speaker 7: a golf club down south of our place. So I
Speaker 7: do think at the end of the day, these are
Speaker 7: private entities, for good or for ill, that make these
Speaker 7: sort of decisions. And you know, I think former PM's,
Speaker 7: former servants of our country, no matter what side of politics,
Speaker 7: should be able to join these type of establishments. But
Speaker 7: I'd be arguing that I would hope that a future
Speaker 7: female Prime minister would also be able to join the
Speaker 7: Australia Club one day.
Speaker 2: Yes, indeed, that those are well made points. I have
Speaker 2: been for lunch there once or twice, and I don't
Speaker 2: know why everyone's to join as well.
Speaker 1: It's a bit stiff, it's a bit boring.
Speaker 2: I don't remember there being any atmosphere or music or
Speaker 2: great food.
Speaker 1: So there are other clubs I'd love to join.
Speaker 6: Come on, Dad, I share that view and I'm not
Speaker 6: a member of Dilas.
Speaker 12: I'm not a member, but I.
Speaker 6: Don't really think it's Scott.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's.
Speaker 6: Scott Morrison's style either. He's happy in shorts watching the footy,
Speaker 6: so I'm not sure it's really his style anyway.
Speaker 1: Look, he applied, did he apply?
Speaker 4: Did he apply?
Speaker 2: Well, the reporting says he did apply, So if he applied,
Speaker 2: the fact that they rejected him but not the likes
Speaker 2: of Malcolm Turnbull says a lot. All right, Bridget Mackenzie,
Speaker 2: Dave Hughes, it's very Sydney. Yes, great to have you
Speaker 2: both on tonight now, just before we got a break
Speaker 2: in a major development, Lisa Wilkinson is seeking to challenge
Speaker 2: a finding made against her in the Bruce Lehman defamation case.
Speaker 2: The Projects former star has filed to appeal against Justice
Speaker 2: Michael Lee's finding that she and ten acted unreasonably and
Speaker 2: unfairly when pursuing the Brittney Higgins story, and she claims
Speaker 2: the judge made more than fifty errors in the Bruce
Speaker 2: Lehman failed defamation case against her and Network ten. The
Speaker 2: Australian reports today that Justice Lee made a number of
Speaker 2: errors in its findings of her conduct and about the
Speaker 2: rape of Britney Higgins by mister Lherman.
Speaker 1: So yet again, that story never seems to end.
Speaker 2: Now, coming up, Mike Puzzullo will join me live in
Speaker 2: an exclusive interview. I'll ask him about China's bullying of
Speaker 2: Cheng Lai. Plus later in the show, I'll speak to
Speaker 2: two survivors of the October seven attack.
Speaker 1: By Hamask you don't want to miss that interview. Welcome back.
Speaker 2: Well, we saw this week that Chinese officials tried to
Speaker 2: bodyblock Australian journalist Chang Lay at a press briefing, and
Speaker 2: then we learned today that Cheng Lay was actually barred
Speaker 2: completely from attending another press event with the Chinese premier.
Speaker 2: This time it was his meeting with Peter Dutton. Cheng
Speaker 2: l wrote on Sky News that Australia is appeasing China
Speaker 2: and she's not surprised by it. She said, for a moment,
Speaker 2: it reminded me of being in residential surveillance, where shifts
Speaker 2: of two guards were glued to me every minute of
Speaker 2: the day. Anthony Alberdezi wanted to make this visit by
Speaker 2: the Chinese premier all about pandas and penfolds. But when
Speaker 2: the Chinese officials felt emboldened on our soil to bully
Speaker 2: Cheng lay Well, the Prime Minister failed to f fiercely
Speaker 2: protect his Australian citizen or our values of freedom of
Speaker 2: the press. It seems like China may have already bought
Speaker 2: Australia's silence despite its foreign interference, it's espionage, its extensive
Speaker 2: malicious cyber attacks, and its appalling human rights abuses where
Speaker 2: whistleblowers and journalists regularly disappear, and Muslim wigas are subject
Speaker 2: to terrible treatment in slave labor camps. As I said
Speaker 2: on Monday night, Albinizi condemns our democratic ally in Israel
Speaker 2: more than he does the greatest aggressor in our region, China.
Speaker 2: To discuss this in more, former Home Affair Secretary and
Speaker 2: longtime powerful diplomat Mike Buzzulo joins me now for an
Speaker 2: exclusive interview.
Speaker 1: Mike, thank you very much and welcome to the program.
Speaker 2: Look, I want to start with this incident, this treatment
Speaker 2: of Cheng Lei this week by the Chinese officials.
Speaker 1: What's reaction to what happened.
Speaker 13: Well, like most Australians, if not all Australians, I was appalled,
Speaker 13: particularly in the case of the first incident. That main
Speaker 13: Committee room, which is in the center of Parliament House,
Speaker 13: for those of your viewers who've never been there, is
Speaker 13: where parliamentary inquiries are held, estimates, hearings and the like.
Speaker 13: It's actually the citadel of our democratic scrutiny, our parliamentary
Speaker 13: scrutiny of the executive. And to have in that room
Speaker 13: that body blocking occurring, I thought it was disgraceful. It
Speaker 13: was appalling. I do want to applaud the quick witted
Speaker 13: actions by the officers. I believe that they're from the
Speaker 13: Prime Minister's Department who were trying as best as they
Speaker 13: could with grace, dignity, and I think very good judgment
Speaker 13: to try, without making a big scene, to try to
Speaker 13: move the particularly the tall blue suited gentlemen on and
Speaker 13: those officers should be I think praised for their charm,
Speaker 13: their grace, their dignity, but also their result. It shouldn't
Speaker 13: come to that in that room. I've sat in that
Speaker 13: room many many times, been quizzed by senators. Perhaps it's
Speaker 13: an alien practice for officials from communist China to comprehend
Speaker 13: the idea of officials being the subject of scrutiny, particularly
Speaker 13: in that room. I was appalled.
Speaker 2: Indeed, well, what about how the Prime Minister reacted to this?
Speaker 2: He was asked about it in a couple of media interviews.
Speaker 2: What did you make of his response?
Speaker 13: Ohl Shari, You have to excuse me these days, I'm
Speaker 13: a retired Canbra pensioner. I don't sort of follow the
Speaker 13: day the day to day media monitoring in the way
Speaker 13: that I used to. I have read some discussion and
Speaker 13: some commentary that suggests that initially there was a degree
Speaker 13: of dismissal, and then there was a hardening of the
Speaker 13: position where the government seems to have got to, which
Speaker 13: is to register a strong complaint, is where we should
Speaker 13: have started. The only thing I noticed in the commentary
Speaker 13: that I do want to make a point of and
Speaker 13: take some exception to, is any suggestion that we should
Speaker 13: be putting that this is somehow comprehensible or indeed excusable
Speaker 13: on the base of different political values or different political systems. No,
Speaker 13: our house, our rules. They need to understand, coming into
Speaker 13: our territory, our terrain, that they behave according to our
Speaker 13: principles and rules. I've got no doubt that if the
Speaker 13: government has said that complaints have been lodged, that that's
Speaker 13: been done and done hopefully candidly. I'm sure it's been
Speaker 13: done candidly, but we shouldn't dismiss it through some sort
Speaker 13: of political or cultural relativism.
Speaker 2: I think we're seeing it, and you've noted this a
Speaker 2: tendency by the Albanezi government to deal with all of
Speaker 2: these different incidences in isolation. So whether it's Chang Lai's
Speaker 2: bullying or the sonar attack on our navy divers, or
Speaker 2: Chinese aggression towards Filipino fishing vessels, all dealt with in isolation.
Speaker 2: But when you put it together, Mike Bozulo, what's the
Speaker 2: nature of the China that we currently face.
Speaker 13: Well, the character of the regime matters, and what I'm
Speaker 13: going to say or what I'm about to say Shari
Speaker 13: is not a reflection on Chinese culture. The Chinese people,
Speaker 13: who like us, go about their lives seeking the best
Speaker 13: for their families, drawing on their rich historical traditions and
Speaker 13: doing the best they can to build a better future.
Speaker 13: That this is not about the Chinese people, but the
Speaker 13: regime is a Leninist communist regime that believes in the
Speaker 13: absolute authority of the party, the absolute authority of the
Speaker 13: party to control all organs, not just of the states,
Speaker 13: but also the economy, the culture, and indeed politics. And
Speaker 13: therefore it's such a dissimilar regime that if we don't
Speaker 13: put at the center of our analysis the character of
Speaker 13: that regime, we're going to get it wrong every time,
Speaker 13: and we're going to be surprised by these individual events,
Speaker 13: Whereas what we should be doing is aggregating a view
Speaker 13: of the regime, particularly in three dimensions. One strategic its
Speaker 13: strategic goal is to push the United States out of
Speaker 13: the Indo Pacific and to start to dictate terms to
Speaker 13: the countries that are in the Indo Pacific, including Australia.
Speaker 13: But whether it's Japan, whether it's the Philippines, whether it's
Speaker 13: countries in Asia and Australia, and we can get to
Speaker 13: those strategic issues in the moment if you wish. Secondly,
Speaker 13: their interference in their own economy, and they're weaponizing of
Speaker 13: their economy such that they're distorting supply chains, whether it's
Speaker 13: pharmaceuticals or other components that are critical or they're introducing
Speaker 13: risk into technology such as five G that basically a
Speaker 13: lot of their products and services become untrustworthy. That is
Speaker 13: a function of the character of the regime. And thirdly,
Speaker 13: that political and cultural relativism that I spoke of earlier.
Speaker 13: There's a paradox here, Shari, that is at one level
Speaker 13: mind blowing for Marxists who believe in objective forces of
Speaker 13: history and that there's only one objective truth for them
Speaker 13: to say. But actually civilizations are different and we can
Speaker 13: all have our own politics, and these so called Western
Speaker 13: norms are culturally specific to the West. What like parliamentary
Speaker 13: scrutiny of the executive courts, the rule of law, the
Speaker 13: prevention of arbitrary detention, etc. The ability of people to
Speaker 13: go to courts and have decisions taken by officials overturned.
Speaker 13: I think we should be standing up for the universality
Speaker 13: of those principles and not accepting that relativism. So it's
Speaker 13: the character of the regime that I'm drawing attention to. Shari.
Speaker 2: You've just said that if we don't realize the threat
Speaker 2: the reality of China, we risk getting it wrong. Do
Speaker 2: you think we're getting it wrong at the moment? And
Speaker 2: you know, I'll just draw your attention to the current
Speaker 2: government's approach to China. I mean, we see the Prime
Speaker 2: Minister often use catch phrases like that we need to
Speaker 2: disagree where we must, and that we've stabilized relations. But
Speaker 2: are we actually disagreeing where we must? Or do you
Speaker 2: think China has effectively bought our silence?
Speaker 13: I think it's I think there's some nuance here that
Speaker 13: we just quickly need to tease out. I think if
Speaker 13: we fall into the trap of making the relationship purely bilateral,
Speaker 13: that is to say, not engaging in building coalitions and
Speaker 13: in building and banding together without other like mindeds, we
Speaker 13: will fall into a trap where for the sake of
Speaker 13: improvements in trade which are not to be sneezed that
Speaker 13: although it does pass range that we're applauding the lifting
Speaker 13: of restrictions that never should have been put in place
Speaker 13: in the first place, if they are truly trade restrictions
Speaker 13: as opposed to weaponizing, for instance, the trading lobsters or
Speaker 13: the trade in wine. But let's leave that to one side.
Speaker 13: Those barriers being lifted are good the exporters here who
Speaker 13: supply high quality produce. It's great that they're going to
Speaker 13: get back into those markets, but we shouldn't accept that
Speaker 13: that's normal behavior. We're turning those trade linkages into political weapons,
Speaker 13: and then having those barriers lifted is something for us
Speaker 13: to applaud and congratulate. The Chinese approach is to divide
Speaker 13: and conquer. What they want is a bilateral relationship with
Speaker 13: everyone other than the Americans, because they realize that the
Speaker 13: Americans are a great power.
Speaker 2: Such apologies for interrupting, but just to bring you back
Speaker 2: to the point, do you think in the Australian government,
Speaker 2: the Albanezy government seeking to get China to lift those
Speaker 2: trade sanctions, which, as you say, should never have been
Speaker 2: in place in the first instance, in getting them to
Speaker 2: do that, have they effectively bought our silence, our subjugation.
Speaker 14: No.
Speaker 13: And this is the point I was just about to
Speaker 13: get to, and I apologize for meandering a little bit
Speaker 13: along the way. Getting those bilateral winds is important. The
Speaker 13: thing is what do you do after that? Having stabilized
Speaker 13: the relationship, having normalized it, which is the other word
Speaker 13: that's used for those who propose or propound this approach,
Speaker 13: you then can't retract from the banding together that was
Speaker 13: in evidence in the recent past, such as through the Quad,
Speaker 13: the work we've been doing with Japan and the Philippines
Speaker 13: calling them out on the origins of COVID, for instance.
Speaker 13: In other words, if we trade away those multilateral or
Speaker 13: regional groupings and the bandings in order to gain these
Speaker 13: bilateral benefits which really aren't benefits because they shouldn't have
Speaker 13: been punishments in the first place. Anyway, that's where I
Speaker 13: think we're at risk of policy failure. In other words, yes,
Speaker 13: the bilateral engagement is fine. Having the visit here is fine,
Speaker 13: notwithstanding the atrocity in our parliament in relation.
Speaker 1: To chang Lay.
Speaker 13: Having those trade having that trade engagement is fine. It's
Speaker 13: what you do next that I'm concerned about.
Speaker 1: What are you concerned about?
Speaker 13: Well, are we going to pause, be reticent and pull
Speaker 13: back on things like building the capacity for American forces
Speaker 13: and Australian forces to operate out of Australia in wartime conditions,
Speaker 13: which is at the heart of our forced posture initiatives
Speaker 13: B fifty two bombers going into Tindal, the submarines, the
Speaker 13: rotational force going into Sterling. These are very good initiatives.
Speaker 2: You think as a risk, you think China would be
Speaker 2: pushing for us pull back on those things.
Speaker 13: I've got no doubt. I've got no evidence at all
Speaker 13: that we are pausing. We're probably not going as fast
Speaker 13: on those things as we should. We need to probably
Speaker 13: up the tempo. China, in their dream state of Australia,
Speaker 13: would have Australia absolutely renouncing all of those initiatives. They
Speaker 13: would prefer that we would close down the joint facilities.
Speaker 13: They would prefer that we didn't have any of those
Speaker 13: forced posture initiatives with the Americans.
Speaker 2: I just want to get to a couple of other areas,
Speaker 2: and we don't have too much time left. You are
Speaker 2: the principal author of the two thousand and nine Defense
Speaker 2: White Paper, and in it you pointed out the future
Speaker 2: military threat posed by China.
Speaker 1: Are we prepared for war now?
Speaker 13: Well, regrettably, that was fifteen years ago. We should have
Speaker 13: upped the tempo of both our defense spenders, as well
Speaker 13: as the bringing into commission and service of large the
Speaker 13: large platforms, things like the twelve large submarines, the general
Speaker 13: purpose frigates that were announced in that white paper. That
Speaker 13: opportunity was lost fifteen years ago, and indeed since so
Speaker 13: it's on both sides of politics. It's now too late
Speaker 13: to bring those platforms into the time frames that we need.
Speaker 13: So we need to rethink with a larger fleet of
Speaker 13: perhaps more basic capabilities, such as drones, to act as substitutes,
Speaker 13: because we don't have ten to fifteen years to build
Speaker 13: up that kind of force. So it does concern me.
Speaker 13: And given that we've got a policy of defense self
Speaker 13: reliance where we don't want to rely on the combat
Speaker 13: assistance of the United States or indeed anyone else, it
Speaker 13: troubles me that there's some glaring gaps now, as I've
Speaker 13: written about for aspe, in relation to things like missile defense.
Speaker 13: In other words, if we had to deploy missile defense batteries,
Speaker 13: we could only deploy American ones into Australia to defend
Speaker 13: our own territory against ballistic missile and other forms of
Speaker 13: missile strike. That is concerning.
Speaker 2: Well, just before you go, Mike bizillo Are reported a
Speaker 2: few months ago that there's a push to strip you
Speaker 2: of your Order of Australia award and that they've written
Speaker 2: a show calls letter to you, a formal letter.
Speaker 1: Does this disappoint you.
Speaker 13: Well before it potentially disappoints me if that action is
Speaker 13: going to be taken. It slightly puzzled me. I've gone
Speaker 13: back and sought reasons. They weren't really very particular about
Speaker 13: the reason. So I've left it there, and I've probably
Speaker 13: given that a subject of a confidential process. I would
Speaker 13: prefer to say not much more than that. But before
Speaker 13: I get disappointed about it at the moment, choose to
Speaker 13: be puzzled about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, puzzled it, And it does sound like perhaps engaging
Speaker 2: in that formal confidential process. Mike Bizula, really appreciate you
Speaker 2: coming on the show to talk about this very important
Speaker 2: issue of the threat of China and how we deal
Speaker 2: with it as a nation.
Speaker 1: Really appreciate your time this evening.
Speaker 2: Well, after the break, we've got a lot coming up
Speaker 2: to Survivors of the October seven attacks by Hamas will
Speaker 2: join me live in the studio. They are incredible stories
Speaker 2: of resilience, an overcoming unthinkable fear at the hands of terrorists.
Speaker 2: You don't want to miss it. Stay tuned, welcome back. Well,
Speaker 2: it was the brutal, barbaric massacre that shook us all
Speaker 2: around the world and started Israel's war against her muss
Speaker 2: that's now been raging for eight months. At the Nova
Speaker 2: Music Festival on October seven, two hundred and sixty innocent
Speaker 2: people were murdered. Among the partygoers was thirty four year
Speaker 2: old mother Mozale Tazazo. She'd arrived at the festival with
Speaker 2: friends on the Friday night. By the next morning, she
Speaker 2: was left unconscious, her life only spared because terrorists thought
Speaker 2: she was already dead.
Speaker 1: And it's no surprise.
Speaker 2: Why if you have a look at this distressing photo
Speaker 2: of how these barbarians left Muzzle bloody and bruised after
Speaker 2: being knocked unconscious and left for hours just meet us away.
Speaker 2: On the same shocking morning was Muslim Israeli police officer
Speaker 2: Ramo al Jozael, who fought off Hamasa's automated weapons with
Speaker 2: only a pistol in his hand. A true hero, Ramo
Speaker 2: saved over two hundred lives. Both Mazal and Rama I
Speaker 2: hear in Australia and they joined me to speak about
Speaker 2: what happened.
Speaker 1: That day just a bit earlier.
Speaker 2: Muzzle, Ramo, thank you both so much for joining me today. Muzzle,
Speaker 2: you were there with two friends at the Nova Music
Speaker 2: Festival on October seven. Can you tell us when you
Speaker 2: first knew that something was seriously wrong.
Speaker 15: When we tried to get to the main world, the
Speaker 15: hell world, you know, and it was very big, a.
Speaker 4: Traffic jam that don't move.
Speaker 15: And this moment we start to hear the gunshots and
Speaker 15: we tried to pass on the land and drive between
Speaker 15: the trees, but we stuck because it was big and
Speaker 15: deep pits, and we saw policemen that's shooting, and we
Speaker 15: get it that they don't shooting to the air. They
Speaker 15: shooting because they see something that I don't see. But
Speaker 15: in the time you hear the gunshots come and be louder,
Speaker 15: the voice of the Arabic coming, be coming closer. So
Speaker 15: we are bended our car and run to the road
Speaker 15: to the road, but the terroists come from the side too,
Speaker 15: so they like closing us.
Speaker 1: So you were running.
Speaker 2: Initially you thought it was a traffic jam. You then
Speaker 2: realized it was a better class and you were running
Speaker 2: trying to escape with your two choirs friends. We sted
Speaker 2: the music festival to celebrate and have a good time.
Speaker 15: What happened next, so my friends and me try to
Speaker 15: cover ourselves with plants, but they and found us. I
Speaker 15: was with my face on the ground, like put my
Speaker 15: hand like this, and the terrorists come found us, and
Speaker 15: he said in English, get up, get up, get up,
Speaker 15: yo yo yo, and I get the back of the
Speaker 15: weapon to my head and this hand like blow up.
Speaker 15: She saved me because they from the heat also my
Speaker 15: head open and they started tied to my legs and
Speaker 15: start to talk with each other in Arabica. I wasn't conscious,
Speaker 15: don't get at what's happening. I know that I need
Speaker 15: to play dead. That's it. And he come to check me.
Speaker 15: Look at me, I hold my breath and they pick
Speaker 15: up my fast look at me, I guess and they go.
Speaker 15: And after they go, I lose my conscious two hours
Speaker 15: and when I woke up, I saw my friends die
Speaker 15: next to me.
Speaker 2: I want to go back to that moment when the
Speaker 2: terrorists came to see if you were alive, when I
Speaker 2: started tying your legs together, and you made the decision
Speaker 2: to pretend to be dead, and that ultimately has saved
Speaker 2: your life.
Speaker 15: I don't know anything, like, I don't get it what
Speaker 15: he's doing, don't get it the things that touch in
Speaker 15: me in this moment, But I know that I need
Speaker 15: to play dead. I don't know how to explain because
Speaker 15: the brand don't think is don't do things with conscience,
Speaker 15: only this. And even when he come to me, I
Speaker 15: was with the white short because all my hands blow up,
Speaker 15: so my bag was blad and when she he come
Speaker 15: close to me to check me, I was thinking only
Speaker 15: about that stomach moving. After that, they burn all the
Speaker 15: buges and I wait until the fire come close to me,
Speaker 15: and I need to choose or burn alive or run
Speaker 15: to the road or get inside to the car I saw.
Speaker 15: So I run like a crazy and I was in
Speaker 15: this car. The terrors don't see me and don't shut
Speaker 15: on the car. At Lack two hour entail. Some angel
Speaker 15: come and take me Keller and rescued you. Yeah, chance
Speaker 15: three afternoon.
Speaker 2: Such an remarkable story of survival and for you to
Speaker 2: be here now in Australia sharing it with all of us,
Speaker 2: it's just incredible. Now, Maza, while you were hiding, you
Speaker 2: took six minutes of footage.
Speaker 1: Just two days ago you realized that.
Speaker 2: Ramo over here, an Israeli police officer, was in that footage.
Speaker 1: Ramo, tell us what you were doing on October seven.
Speaker 12: On October seven, I arrived to the Pestival Nova six
Speaker 12: twenty two, eight minutes before it all started six thirty
Speaker 12: thousands of rockets. It's the first time I'm doing a
Speaker 12: shift in Festival Nova. You know, in the police Israel
Speaker 12: police force, you can get extra money if you go
Speaker 12: to guard a football game, a festival game. So it
Speaker 12: was my first time in the five years that time
Speaker 12: in the police force as an investigator. And from there
Speaker 12: fifteen hours of fighting and the rescuing and rescuing.
Speaker 7: It was a.
Speaker 12: Hell of a day.
Speaker 1: How many terrorists did you come up against? It in
Speaker 1: those hours.
Speaker 12: In the Pestival Nova It was thirty six cups with
Speaker 12: olive pistols against three hundred and fifty terrorists. They were
Speaker 12: heavily armed. In the Nova party, there were four thousand,
Speaker 12: teenage innocent young people that only wanted to have fun,
Speaker 12: to party together, and.
Speaker 2: You spent your time trying to fight the terrorists and
Speaker 2: rescue as many people as you could. Yeah, exactly, Yeah,
Speaker 2: And what sort of brutality did you come up against?
Speaker 2: I mean, you've said, this is nothing like anything else
Speaker 2: you've ever come across in your life.
Speaker 1: Can you share with.
Speaker 2: Australians who are hearing international aid organizations trying to deny
Speaker 2: the violence against women, the brutality by her mask. Can
Speaker 2: you tell us some of what made this so different,
Speaker 2: so unlike anything else you'd ever fought against.
Speaker 12: In the party, you had the Jews, Muslims, christian drews
Speaker 12: from all over the world having fun, put together, and
Speaker 12: the trees didn't care if your Muslim Christian drews. All
Speaker 12: they wanted to do is to kill as much as
Speaker 12: they can, kidnap as much as they can, and make
Speaker 12: a lot of destruction on that day. For example, the
Speaker 12: first citizen victim was a Bedoing. She was pregnant with
Speaker 12: hejab and they shot her multi times. They didn't care.
Speaker 12: Is that she is a pregnant Yeah. Also from my
Speaker 12: biggest beding city in Israel, many came to say to help. Unfortunately,
Speaker 12: some of them killed on the road and some of
Speaker 12: them kidnapped until today I will not say the family name,
Speaker 12: but some of them until kidnam So there are still.
Speaker 2: Muslim hostages right now being held by Harmas and Gaza.
Speaker 2: This isn't just a war against Jews. This is all Israelis.
Speaker 2: And I think that's something that many people forget, that
Speaker 2: about twenty percent is that right of the Israeli population is.
Speaker 12: Muslim neighbors living together. I study in a Jew school.
Speaker 4: You are Muslim yourself name of Muslim, myself.
Speaker 12: I'm bedoing Swiss Muslim.
Speaker 1: But proudly Israeli exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Marsil, can you tell me about the moment a
Speaker 2: couple of days ago when you realized that you had
Speaker 2: this extraordinary connection with Ramar.
Speaker 15: Wow, he not saved only two hundred, two hundred, they say,
Speaker 15: my time, two hundred people from the party He and
Speaker 15: their inhap friends save many more like me that hiding
Speaker 15: that don't know what's happening. And only because we saw
Speaker 15: a policeman that's shotting we get it that, Wow, something
Speaker 15: is very big happening here. And another thing I live
Speaker 15: two years in Jerusalem, the fact that I am a
Speaker 15: black woman and my parents come from Ethiopia, like and
Speaker 15: they immigrant. I'm burn in Israel and rest in Israel
Speaker 15: all my life in school and all my friends from
Speaker 15: all the colors and sewers in Israel and Jerusalem with
Speaker 15: Arab life, our friends. And after the other festival, I
Speaker 15: have really afraid. I'm scared because it's triggered for me.
Speaker 15: And when I know Remo and this story and the
Speaker 15: person he is, the fear that I have is less
Speaker 15: because I know and Israel I have Muslim that fight,
Speaker 15: that know the true and maybe is what you know
Speaker 15: save us all of this.
Speaker 4: It's crazy. The world have to know that we deal
Speaker 4: with monsters.
Speaker 15: Is not about the land, is not about like people
Speaker 15: screen free Palestine because they care about the Palestine.
Speaker 4: And I really understand that.
Speaker 15: But the Drahmas use them, you know, they use them
Speaker 15: the Palestine. It's not us, like we have to understand that.
Speaker 15: If you want to help us, help us to done
Speaker 15: with the Hamas.
Speaker 4: What's your message on.
Speaker 12: That day on seventh October, that Black day? You saw
Speaker 12: that everyone needs well Jews, Muslims, Christian Jews, everyone's tend
Speaker 12: together defend the home together against that pilateau. It was
Speaker 12: like everyone walked like one unit, team, one book, one
Speaker 12: family against family. Yeah exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And look, I have to say that's how I
Speaker 2: and all of my viewers feel as well, that we
Speaker 2: are one family with both of you.
Speaker 1: Thank you both. Having the courage to be here.
Speaker 2: And to share your stories publicly so extraordinary and it
Speaker 2: must be so hard for them to relive the most
Speaker 2: traumatic moment in their lives over and over again, because
Speaker 2: they are telling their story to raise awareness about what
Speaker 2: happened on October seven, because the rest of the world
Speaker 2: just wants to forget about it and move on, including
Speaker 2: our own government.
Speaker 1: Well after the.
Speaker 2: Break, former chief executive of Australia's National Nuclear Organization will
Speaker 2: join me to speak about today's big policy and now statute. Well,
Speaker 2: let's return to today's top story. Now Opposition leader Peter
Speaker 2: Dutton confirming the location for seven nuclear reactor sites if
Speaker 2: he wins the next election. Anthony Albanezi was quick to
Speaker 2: slam the policy, but to take the politics out of
Speaker 2: the equation, let's bring in now the former Chief Executive
Speaker 2: of the Australian Nuclear Science and Technology Organization, Adie Patterson.
Speaker 1: Adie, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2: Look, Australia actually has the world's largest deposits of uranium,
Speaker 2: almost one third of the global total as I understand it,
Speaker 2: Yet all of that valuable resource is currently exported. Do
Speaker 2: you think this is a reason why it might make
Speaker 2: sense to have a nuclear energy industry of our own here?
Speaker 14: It does make sense. I mean we could develop the
Speaker 14: ability to make nuclear fuel that adds a huge amount
Speaker 14: of value, about a thousand times to the uranium ore
Speaker 14: that we send out in the form of yellow cake
Speaker 14: at the moment, I think it's really important to recognize
Speaker 14: that uranium is powering all of the lowest carbon reliable
Speaker 14: energy in the world, apart from hydropower which is about
Speaker 14: the same size, and some geothermal in a place like
Speaker 14: the North of New Zealand, but the lowest reliable, always
Speaker 14: on power comes from uranium, and a chunk of that
Speaker 14: is dug out of the ground and processed into yellow
Speaker 14: cake and shipped out of the country.
Speaker 2: Look, are there still concerns about nuclear waste and what
Speaker 2: to do with it? Should we develop seven nuclear reactors
Speaker 2: here in Australia.
Speaker 14: Well, I think I'll talk first about the reactor technology
Speaker 14: and its safety, because if you can't have the reactors,
Speaker 14: you can't have the wasst And I think it's really
Speaker 14: important to recognize eyes that the gen cost report of CSIRO,
Speaker 14: the premiers on on SBS tonight, work with something called
Speaker 14: the levelized cost of electricity, that's the cost of electricity
Speaker 14: at the fence before you put it into the grid. Okay,
Speaker 14: there's published engineering data for re search. It's been done
Speaker 14: in Germany and in Texas. The academic is a guy
Speaker 14: called Robert Idell. I have spent a number of hours
Speaker 14: with other colleagues talking to him. He has written a
Speaker 14: paper that doesn't look at the levelized cost of electricity,
Speaker 14: which is what the gen Cost Report does by CSIRO,
Speaker 14: but what is called the levelized full system cost of electricity.
Speaker 14: It includes things, so the levelized cost of electricity for
Speaker 14: you don't need to know bring.
Speaker 1: Our viewers into this.
Speaker 2: Just to bring our viewers into this, the CSIRO, i think,
Speaker 2: has said that it would cost about eight point five
Speaker 2: billion dollars per nuclear reactor.
Speaker 1: That's what you're told about.
Speaker 2: But you're saying that's not an accurate picture of the
Speaker 2: full cost.
Speaker 14: Well, that cost is irrelevant once you understand that the
Speaker 14: levelized cost the cost that is the one that puts
Speaker 14: the electrons on the grid, and more importantly, the levelized
Speaker 14: full system cost. So the levelized cost which CSIRO uses
Speaker 14: is not the same as the cost of the consumer
Speaker 14: that we experience. To put it in real terms, in
Speaker 14: published work based on real grids in Germany and in Texas,
Speaker 14: the levelized full cost of electricity in Texas for solar panels,
Speaker 14: for example, is one hundred and twenty two US dollars
Speaker 14: per mega.
Speaker 2: What our ady Patterson I apologize we are out of time.
Speaker 2: Look I think our viewers that might have sounded very complicated.
Speaker 2: But I tell you what, we're going to learn a
Speaker 2: lot more about nuclear technology in the next ten months
Speaker 2: before the next election.
Speaker 1: You never know, we'll all end up sounding like eighty Patterson.
Speaker 1: I see you tomorrow at eight. Here's poor Murray