WEBVTT - Why do some diggers back Ben Roberts-Smith?

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<v Speaker 1>From The Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.

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<v Speaker 1>It's Monday, April twenty seven, twenty twenty six. Donald Trump

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<v Speaker 1>says he's a target for would be assassins because he

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<v Speaker 1>has changed America. That's after a man armed with guns

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<v Speaker 1>and a knife rushed a security checkpoint at a black

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<v Speaker 1>tie dinner in a Washington, DC hotel where Trump was

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<v Speaker 1>a guest. Teacher Cole Allen has been charged. Trump begged

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<v Speaker 1>Americans to commit to resolving their differences peacefully. In South Wales,

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<v Speaker 1>Western Australia and the Act will take today as a

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<v Speaker 1>public holiday to mark Anzac Day. Crowds are streaming through

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<v Speaker 1>the newly renovated War Memorial in Canberra. There are special

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<v Speaker 1>footy games. People are baking Anzac biscuits together. A couple

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<v Speaker 1>of generations ago, Anzac Day was in danger of dying out.

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<v Speaker 1>Now it's bigger than ever so changed. Our reporter Jamie

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<v Speaker 1>Walker is here.

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<v Speaker 2>It just seems to get bigger every year, doesn't it.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's also quite remarkable to think about it that

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<v Speaker 2>this is at a time when Australia is not at war.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, we are not yet directly involved in the

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<v Speaker 2>Iran conflict.

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<v Speaker 3>Though we obviously have some people in.

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<v Speaker 2>Jubai, and I think it says a lot about.

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<v Speaker 3>How much Anzac Day means to the country.

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<v Speaker 1>Jamie Walker is an associate editor with The Australian.

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<v Speaker 2>And I've been reflecting on us a little bit and

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<v Speaker 2>I'm very interested in what Steve Weisard had to say.

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<v Speaker 2>He wrote a book about the Anzac legend, what he

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<v Speaker 2>calls the Anzac Myth, and he makes a point that

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<v Speaker 2>every country has to have a foundational myth.

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<v Speaker 3>In the United States, it's the War.

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<v Speaker 2>Of Independence, the movement of the settlers and the development

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<v Speaker 2>out west in that country.

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<v Speaker 3>In the Night Kingdom.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, it's all tied up with the monarchy and

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<v Speaker 2>Magna Carta and all of these things. What is the

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<v Speaker 2>foundational myth of Australia. Well, it's not federation, is it.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's Zact Day that speaks to our character

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<v Speaker 2>about makeship, about sacrifice, about many of the things we

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<v Speaker 2>see ourselves as being Australia would like to see ourselves

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<v Speaker 2>as being as Australians.

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<v Speaker 1>It's probably a little bit more inclusive, maybe for younger

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<v Speaker 1>Australians two who might feel conflicted about Australia Day, for example.

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<v Speaker 1>Plenty of Indigenous veterans, of course, have served across Australia

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<v Speaker 1>services throughout the past century and more, and so perhaps

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<v Speaker 1>there's an ability to feel more excited about Anzac Day.

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<v Speaker 1>I was watching the Rugby League over the weekend and

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<v Speaker 1>heard someone describing Anzac Day. A commentator describing Anzac Day

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<v Speaker 1>as Australia's most important day. I thought that was really

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<v Speaker 1>interesting when we do have Australia Day again.

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<v Speaker 2>I think the problem with Australia Day is that it's

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<v Speaker 2>slightly conflicted, isn't it. You know, it's Invasion Day to

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<v Speaker 2>many Australians. I think younger people are probably a little

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<v Speaker 2>more skeptical about it. Anzac Day is unambiguous. I don't

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<v Speaker 2>know if you celebrate Anzact Day or commemorate Anzac Day.

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<v Speaker 2>I think you do both. And I think that shows

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<v Speaker 2>where in the way the day rolls out. Starts with

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<v Speaker 2>the very very solemn ritual of the dawn service, and

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<v Speaker 2>then it rolls into the marches, which are quite joyous events,

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<v Speaker 2>and of course the afternoon at the pub or at

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<v Speaker 2>the footy or whatever, or at the barbecue in the backyard.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's a day that brings people together, whereas I

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<v Speaker 2>think Australia Day for an element of us at least,

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<v Speaker 2>there is a divisive element in it, and for that

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<v Speaker 2>reason I think Anzac Day, Yeah, it's certainly our national

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<v Speaker 2>day and one thing we've reflected on in the past,

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<v Speaker 2>clear which you know, we're both of a certain generation,

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<v Speaker 2>I expect more so than I am the new But

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<v Speaker 2>I remember vividly going to Anzac Day in the nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>sixties and early seventies with my grandfather who was a

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<v Speaker 2>World War Two veteran in North Queensland, and it wasn't

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<v Speaker 2>exactly a fashionable thing to do, you know. It was

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<v Speaker 2>all these old blokes from the RSL marching around and

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<v Speaker 2>we're all sitting there thinking, well, what's all this about?

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<v Speaker 2>And I think the big circuit breaker and it's always

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<v Speaker 2>worth reflecting on this was the Peter Weir movie Gallipoli.

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<v Speaker 3>Loo can make us go?

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<v Speaker 1>Are they?

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<v Speaker 2>There's no point as men should have gone Barton Marca

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<v Speaker 2>Fax I've been seeing not by.

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<v Speaker 4>Me, sir.

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<v Speaker 5>I've asked for confirmation from General dun orders our to attack,

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<v Speaker 5>and you'll do so immediately.

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<v Speaker 3>The British Atsulram must be allowed to get ashore. Is

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<v Speaker 3>that clear? You are to push on? It's cold, but

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<v Speaker 3>a murdered I said, push on. From a place you

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<v Speaker 3>never heard of, comes a story you'll never forget.

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<v Speaker 2>And at that time why that had such effect I

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<v Speaker 2>think in the nineteenth very early nineteen eighties, and why

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<v Speaker 2>it helped switch around the public view that Anzac Day

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<v Speaker 2>was a bit old fashioned, a bit daggy, a bit

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<v Speaker 2>out of step with what we think is that for

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<v Speaker 2>the first time my generation saw the World War One

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<v Speaker 2>diggers of blokes who went to Gallipoli and then on

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<v Speaker 2>to the Western Front. We saw them as young men.

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<v Speaker 2>We hadn't experienced that before. We were used to seeing

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<v Speaker 2>them with their short back inside haircuts, you know, standing

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<v Speaker 2>in the bar at the RSL, complaining about us. So

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<v Speaker 2>I think that was part of this process of change

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<v Speaker 2>which we now see in its fulfillment today.

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<v Speaker 1>Keith Payne, what a remarkable Australian. He was a relatively

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<v Speaker 1>young army officer, although already an experienced veteran from the

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<v Speaker 1>Korean War. When in Vietnam, despite having suffered terrible injuries

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<v Speaker 1>of his own, he showed enormous gallantry under fire and

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<v Speaker 1>saved the lives of of his comrades. You spoke to

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<v Speaker 1>him about his feelings about vis Anzac Day, and particularly

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<v Speaker 1>about the controversy that's now raging about Ben Robert Smith,

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<v Speaker 1>the VC recipient who's accused of five counts of war

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<v Speaker 1>crime murder. What did Keith Paine tell you about Ben Robert.

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<v Speaker 2>Smith, Well, he said, unambiguously, he's a friend, not just

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<v Speaker 2>a fellow VC holder. He considers Ben Robert Smith a

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<v Speaker 2>mate and he considered it his duty to stand by him.

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<v Speaker 2>So Keith Payin came out and said, I'd much on

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<v Speaker 2>Enzac Day with Ben Robert Smith.

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<v Speaker 3>He's my friend.

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<v Speaker 2>Living soldier has spent his first night behind bars after

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<v Speaker 2>being charged with five counts of war crime murder.

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<v Speaker 5>After ten days in Sydney's Silver Water Prison, Ben Robert

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<v Speaker 5>Smith is on his way back to Queensland.

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<v Speaker 2>He also talks a little bit about his ethos I suppose,

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<v Speaker 2>and he's very strong in this point. He says what

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<v Speaker 2>happens in war should stay in war. In other words,

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<v Speaker 2>he's saying that it's very, very difficult to second judge

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<v Speaker 2>all of the things that might happen in a firefight

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<v Speaker 2>or in the course of combat. And I think that's

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<v Speaker 2>something worth taking into account. I mean, we can all

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<v Speaker 2>look back on, you know, things in perfect hindsight, and

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<v Speaker 2>we all look back in our lives and wish we

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<v Speaker 2>did things differently. But gosh, when you're a soldier, there's

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<v Speaker 2>no do overs, and the decisions are made in a

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<v Speaker 2>split moment, and very often the events are entirely out

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<v Speaker 2>of your control.

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<v Speaker 3>And I think he, of all people is aware of that.

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<v Speaker 1>Ben Robert Smith made a speech after attending a dawn

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<v Speaker 1>service on Saturday at Carombin in Queensland.

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<v Speaker 5>As I day is not about one individual or an

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<v Speaker 5>individual battle, or even a war. It is about acknowledging

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<v Speaker 5>those that, when asked, answered a nation's call to defend

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<v Speaker 5>this country in the hope that they will made it.

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<v Speaker 3>A better place.

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<v Speaker 5>This ends at day. I would like to thank all

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<v Speaker 5>of the servicemen and women, the veterans and their families.

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<v Speaker 1>Ben Robert Smith will, of course vigorously defend himself. He

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<v Speaker 1>says he always acted within the rules of engagement and

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<v Speaker 1>within the law. The jury in his trial, if he

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<v Speaker 1>does ever get to trial, will probably not know what

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<v Speaker 1>those rules of engagement are, though, because it's already been

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<v Speaker 1>declared in the Commonwealth Statement of facts in that matter,

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<v Speaker 1>that the rules of engagement are classified and can't be

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<v Speaker 1>shared in open court. Australians are debating this in the

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<v Speaker 1>years that it will take for Ben Robert Smith to

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<v Speaker 1>actually get to trial. What are you hearing from veterans

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<v Speaker 1>about what they think about that very question, Jamie, whether

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<v Speaker 1>an alleged breach of the rules of engagement or an

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<v Speaker 1>an act in war might have breached Australian law.

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<v Speaker 2>Look, I think again there's a cross section of opinion

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<v Speaker 2>among the veterans community, and so goes to a little

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<v Speaker 2>bit of the internal politics within the military that the

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<v Speaker 2>regular army guys probably resent a little bit of the resources,

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<v Speaker 2>including higher pay that goes to the ESAs, and I

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<v Speaker 2>think some of the if you talk to a regular

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<v Speaker 2>army guy, they will say, we're professional soldiers, We're bound

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<v Speaker 2>by the rules of war, we abide by them, and

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<v Speaker 2>we've got little time for anyone who breaks those rules. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>that comes down to a judgment of what you think

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<v Speaker 2>of the case against Ben Robert Smith, And in due

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<v Speaker 2>course we're all going to hear chapter and verse of that,

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<v Speaker 2>and it will be a very very different case, of course,

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<v Speaker 2>than what was presented at the Civil proceedings. This will

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<v Speaker 2>be a criminal trial with a much much higher standard

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<v Speaker 2>of beyond reasonable doubt than where you saw in the

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<v Speaker 2>civil proceedings on the.

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<v Speaker 3>Balance of probability. So put that aside.

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<v Speaker 2>I think also within the military community, I think there

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<v Speaker 2>is a lot of sympathy for Ben Robert Smith on

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<v Speaker 2>the basis of of how much publicity this has received,

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<v Speaker 2>how in the views of some that it's been trialed

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<v Speaker 2>by media. I don't necessarily subscribe to that, but some

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<v Speaker 2>people believe that, and I think that it's going to

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<v Speaker 2>be a very very polarizing case and a very very

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<v Speaker 2>difficult case just on the merits of what went on,

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<v Speaker 2>let alone the fact that this man won.

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<v Speaker 3>The highest award for valor that Australia can give.

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<v Speaker 1>After the break more of my conversation with Jamie. Women

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<v Speaker 1>have served throughout Australia's history of conflict, whether it's on

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<v Speaker 1>the battlefield as nurses or back home as wives, homemakers,

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<v Speaker 1>supporters for the men who'd gone to serve. You've been

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<v Speaker 1>speaking to some of the widows who are supported by

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<v Speaker 1>a legacy.

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<v Speaker 3>What are they.

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<v Speaker 1>Telling you, Jamie at this time of year.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, look, we have a lovely story in the paper

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<v Speaker 2>about Jess Taylor, who's thirty six, whose husband died after

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<v Speaker 2>he returned from Afghanistan in very tragic circumstances, and Betty Bull,

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<v Speaker 2>who's a hundred and hilarious.

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<v Speaker 5>I have for a tea.

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<v Speaker 3>Thank you. If it's made wrong, it's right. I don't

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<v Speaker 3>make it.

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<v Speaker 4>Is that your excuse and I'm sticking to it, oh aih.

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<v Speaker 2>Anyway, we got them together just to share their experiences,

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<v Speaker 2>and what they said was they just feel this incredible bond.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, there's sixty odd years between them in age,

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<v Speaker 2>and yet they can each relate to each other's experience

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<v Speaker 2>so deeply, and particularly with the trauma that Jess endured

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<v Speaker 2>with the family, she says she actually spends quite a

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<v Speaker 2>bit of time with older women.

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<v Speaker 3>She says she doesn't even have to talk to them.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, she just sits there and she knows they

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<v Speaker 2>understand what she has gone through after her husband came

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<v Speaker 2>back from war.

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<v Speaker 3>Her husband had served.

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<v Speaker 2>In East Temor and in Afghanistan and had a pretty

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<v Speaker 2>rough time when he came back and unfortunately passed away

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<v Speaker 2>during that awful process.

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<v Speaker 4>You're showing me that it doesn't matter what you've been through,

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<v Speaker 4>you are still living a fulfilled life, and you're still

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<v Speaker 4>laughing and you're dancing, and that to me shows so

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<v Speaker 4>much promise in my life and my boys' lives.

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<v Speaker 3>God Bleach and Darling god Bleach Sheel.

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<v Speaker 1>Of course they deserve our respect and acknowledgment. And today

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<v Speaker 1>they'll be bathed in Lofe. I hope lest we forget.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you very much, Jamie, Thank you, Clyn. Jamie Walker

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<v Speaker 1>is an associate editor with The Australian. You can check

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<v Speaker 1>out all his work right now at the Australian dot

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<v Speaker 1>com dot au