Speaker 1: Hi, my Boris and this is straight Talk, my Luba.
Speaker 1: Welcome to straight Talk.
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. How good?
Speaker 1: How you feeling?
Speaker 2: Well? A little bit tired.
Speaker 3: I was on got late, got in late last night
Speaker 3: from Dubai. There was a sevens tournament up there, so
Speaker 3: I was up there doing a bit of stuff with
Speaker 3: HSBC which was in commentary or a bit of commentary,
Speaker 3: a bit of rugby stuff. So sevens competition. The sevens
Speaker 3: kicked off their their competition for the year, so big
Speaker 3: event up in Dubai, which was yeah, cracking, cracking stuff.
Speaker 1: It's mad up there isn't it like the stuff that's
Speaker 1: going on in the Middle East, like Saudi Dubai, Abadhabi.
Speaker 2: Do you have a look around, mate, I didn't.
Speaker 3: I wanted to get to the wavepool that Kelly's just
Speaker 3: opened up in Abu Dhabi.
Speaker 2: But no, we were. We were in Dubai.
Speaker 3: But the event was cricket, rugby seven's like you know,
Speaker 3: there's a heap of stuff going on some a big
Speaker 3: concert right at the end of it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was, I do so.
Speaker 1: So I actually sat with I had breakfast with the
Speaker 1: maid of mine, Ginge David Ginjel, and he went to
Speaker 1: the wave pool last week, which one in but I
Speaker 1: did that new one. There's no hotel book built there,
Speaker 1: but it's just the facility. He said, it is unbelievable.
Speaker 1: And he showed me some videos of him on some
Speaker 1: waves and he went up with the Morbid Blokes and
Speaker 1: the Team Blakes and they booked the whole joint out
Speaker 1: and he said, he said, you just he said, the
Speaker 1: places on steroids. He said that whle between Abadabi is
Speaker 1: like an hour and a half between that and Dubai.
Speaker 1: He said, just driving through you're not driving through Disney
Speaker 1: where you're driving through Disneyland on steroids. It's mental. Every
Speaker 1: facility you can possibly imagine for anyone in the world,
Speaker 1: sporting fun, recreation, hotels, bills and middle of the desert,
Speaker 1: like everything is mental.
Speaker 3: They were in a mall that had an aquarium in it,
Speaker 3: like genuine sharks in the aquarium and then you're just
Speaker 3: walking past and buying something nothing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, made it's remarkable, great place.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So what are they doing in terms of rugby sevens?
Speaker 1: So what's what's going on there? What was was.
Speaker 3: This just the start of Ruby Sea started the tournament, So,
Speaker 3: I mean their last big thing was the Olympics. So
Speaker 3: it was quite an interesting one because as always new seasons,
Speaker 3: new sort. After that end of the four year period,
Speaker 3: there's a new cycle. So yes, seven's kicks off, they
Speaker 3: go you know through they're down to Cape Town this week,
Speaker 3: but then they'll come to Perth, Hong Kong and I
Speaker 3: think end up Singapore and La So that's their tournament.
Speaker 1: That's pretty cool. So you try to get to rugby
Speaker 1: seven's the Olympics tried.
Speaker 2: Ye A keyword what happened? Maybe it's a hard game.
Speaker 3: So it came into the Olympics twenty sixteen, probably before that.
Speaker 3: Arguably before that it was a little bit specialist, but
Speaker 3: not a special specialist as it is now. It's bloody hard,
Speaker 3: different energy source, different skill set. They are real generalists
Speaker 3: in what they have to do. They've got to pass,
Speaker 3: they've got to be super fit. They're all agile and
Speaker 3: a twenty two a fast, yeah, and twenty two years
Speaker 3: old and I'm thirty. I tried to do it at
Speaker 3: thirty two and had never played before, played two tournaments
Speaker 3: and yeah, I had had a good first.
Speaker 2: Game and I went downhill from there pretty quick.
Speaker 1: So is a gas?
Speaker 2: What's that?
Speaker 1: Did you? Is? It the amount of gas you have
Speaker 1: do you have to have to play sevens? Or is
Speaker 1: it the speed of the game.
Speaker 2: What is it?
Speaker 3: Well, I was a fit fifteen's player. I had a
Speaker 3: good engine in fifteen's footy. But in sevens it's the
Speaker 3: repeat speed and being fast but then being able to
Speaker 3: repeat it and repeat it, and then the skill set.
Speaker 3: The ball moves differently to you know, it's still tackle,
Speaker 3: it's still past, still scrum and line out, the things
Speaker 3: that we know about footy, but it's just the ball
Speaker 3: moves different and it's hard.
Speaker 2: It's yeah, it's fast. I was underdone.
Speaker 1: There's so much more space. Yeah, because there's less people obviously,
Speaker 1: but there's so much space and it looks like, you know,
Speaker 1: you get to run a lot further than would in
Speaker 1: a fifteen's game.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, a lot further than you would. And you know,
Speaker 3: I'd been playing a certain way for fifteen years and
Speaker 3: then I had to try and undo that, undo that
Speaker 3: sort of subconscious way of how I entered the field,
Speaker 3: and I struggled.
Speaker 2: I struggled, so I got better.
Speaker 3: As I think if I had a little bit longer,
Speaker 3: we would have got a bit closer. But no, not
Speaker 3: to be it would have been cool. The guys end
Speaker 3: up going coming forth in the Olympics, so it would
Speaker 3: have been nice, But no, no, dice.
Speaker 1: One of the one of the Rooster's recent recruits, which
Speaker 1: is the team on the I on the board of
Speaker 1: is Mark. He played in the rugby sevens in in
Speaker 1: the Olympics and Paris Mark and a W a Q
Speaker 1: And I cannot spell the rest of his name, and
Speaker 1: I cannot.
Speaker 2: Brounce it.
Speaker 1: No longer ne to us, and he's How do you think,
Speaker 1: because you know between the two has been a lot
Speaker 1: of switching. You know, we had Joseph Lee recently he's
Speaker 1: gone that way to rugby, and now we've got someone
Speaker 1: like Mark and rugby league. How do you think that
Speaker 1: sort of transition occurs. I always thought someone like Rocky
Speaker 1: Elson would have been a great roguy league player. I
Speaker 1: just I just thought it's something about him. I think
Speaker 1: you would have been too tough. You've got to be.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying rugby union is not tough, but there's
Speaker 1: got to be a lot of there's a lot of
Speaker 1: physical consequence the rugby league. When you've got the ball
Speaker 1: on your own and you've got to hit it up
Speaker 1: and you always sort of pretty robust physically robust bloke.
Speaker 1: What do you think about that change over between either
Speaker 1: lead ROBUNI or roby in and rugby league. Let's took
Speaker 1: rugby Uni rugby league first.
Speaker 2: Going rugby union to rugby league.
Speaker 3: Well, I think I think it takes Oh well, I
Speaker 3: think Mark Marky's the I mean the picture boy for it.
Speaker 2: I mean, his first game is unbelievable.
Speaker 3: I played heaps with Mark and I think the gift
Speaker 3: that Marky has well, he played a little bit of
Speaker 3: league growing up, well, a lot of league growing up,
Speaker 3: but his athletic ability, he's able to get leap. You know,
Speaker 3: he's one of those guys kind of like Israel, right
Speaker 3: that just sort of levitates up. Everyone else jumps, but
Speaker 3: they just glide up.
Speaker 2: And have hang time. And I loved how hungry he was.
Speaker 3: For some of his carries off the line. You know,
Speaker 3: he goes plays what is a Holden cup The game's below.
Speaker 3: So he's managed by the same manager that I am,
Speaker 3: so I was seeing some of his cut performances and
Speaker 3: then you know, his debut there for the Roosters and
Speaker 3: it's going to you know, he was carrying those hard
Speaker 3: ones off the off the try line. Look, I don't
Speaker 3: think there's anywhere to hide on the rugby league field.
Speaker 3: Can you watch a game of Origin and I don't
Speaker 3: think there's.
Speaker 2: A tougher game.
Speaker 3: Orange you know played like and you know played a
Speaker 3: lot of rugby and rugby is a tough game, but
Speaker 3: it's tough in a different way. I think rugby league
Speaker 3: is probably tougher and.
Speaker 2: There's no hiding.
Speaker 3: Well you carry, You've got to carry off your off
Speaker 3: your try line like you've got five guys after you
Speaker 3: and you can't you can't hide.
Speaker 2: You know the play is going to come your side.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 3: It looks I would love to have a crack at it,
Speaker 3: but yeah, it looks. It's a brutal sport.
Speaker 1: How about the other way? So Joseph Sali's has now
Speaker 1: gone from rugby to playing for Australia. Anything has been going.
Speaker 1: It was looking at that first two games.
Speaker 3: Again similar to Markie right, like he's he played a
Speaker 3: fair bit of union at school. Was that one of
Speaker 3: the great big rugby schools in in Sydney.
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Uh, And obviously that whole week around that England week,
Speaker 3: I was I was very surprised that he was selected
Speaker 3: big call to make, and he did so well. Like
Speaker 3: man kid again, has that ability to levitate, has that
Speaker 3: time in the air, looks like an incredible athlete, looks
Speaker 3: like his preparation. I mean I heard him on this show,
Speaker 3: and just the detail he has for a young man,
Speaker 3: ye twenty one in his preparation is leaps and bounds
Speaker 3: ahead of many twenty one year olds that I've ever
Speaker 3: seen myself, included you know, the way he's going about
Speaker 3: his business at that time.
Speaker 2: So I mean he is going to be going to
Speaker 2: be immense.
Speaker 1: You mentioned is he israelh flow and I just want
Speaker 1: to touch on that for a second, if you don't mind,
Speaker 1: I don't want to get into politics, but let's call
Speaker 1: it the politics of censorship. You would remember what happened.
Speaker 2: I've forgotten actually completely.
Speaker 1: I'm going to remind you, but Israel sort of like
Speaker 1: got outed playing at the highest level of rugby union.
Speaker 1: I don't even know what he's doing now, but one
Speaker 1: of the most was seeing like rugby rugby or rugby
Speaker 1: lee doesn't really matter rugby, you know, competitors that are
Speaker 1: both both codes. Ever, shown how easiest is to fall
Speaker 1: out with the administration of a game and how relevant
Speaker 1: is the administration and if you're a player, do you
Speaker 1: have to conform or what's the deal.
Speaker 3: It's an interesting I mean, that is such a broad topic,
Speaker 3: right because who are the most supported I guess entities
Speaker 3: in the world. Is actually the athlete, not the teams
Speaker 3: a lot of the time. So the biggest followed and
Speaker 3: supported people around the world, your Ronaldo's or your long
Speaker 3: bron James's or you know, people within the teams, the
Speaker 3: stories within the not the teams themselves. I mean you're
Speaker 3: maybe a man you or you know a Yankees or
Speaker 3: something like that. You know, household names, they're up there,
Speaker 3: but they still don't have the same type of followers
Speaker 3: that some of these individuals have. So getting that balance
Speaker 3: right of how do you allow someone to be themselves
Speaker 3: and represent the community that they represent and fit within
Speaker 3: a team is a trick. That's what the team's all about.
Speaker 3: How do you get that balance balance right? You know,
Speaker 3: with all we see it in all different situations, and
Speaker 3: I think rugby's a really tough one, isn't it, And
Speaker 3: sport in general, because when you're a paid athlete and
Speaker 3: I'm not making any excuses for people and you know,
Speaker 3: myself included up you know, made mistakes and publicly made
Speaker 3: mistakes as well, So I'm part of this as well.
Speaker 3: But you're a well paid young man in a team environment,
Speaker 3: trying to find your way at twenty twenty one years old,
Speaker 3: with pressure, ego, expectation, all these things, immaturity, immaturity, and
Speaker 3: we expect people to be finished products and we're kind
Speaker 3: of surprised that we're not. So, you know, I think
Speaker 3: it's it's inevitable that mistakes are going to be made
Speaker 3: and going to happen, whether you know people deem them
Speaker 3: as mistakes or not. But how do we then allow
Speaker 3: well not you know, you don't want to cancel someone
Speaker 3: because of one thing that's done. How do you then
Speaker 3: bringing you know, second chances are super important in life
Speaker 3: because you know, there's guys out, guys and girls making
Speaker 3: mistakes every weekend. That's how you learn and you grow
Speaker 3: as you make a mistake and you go again. You
Speaker 3: just want the mistakes not to be super grand. And
Speaker 3: I'm not talking about the Israel Filao thing here. I'm
Speaker 3: more gone on a broader spectrum when it comes to
Speaker 3: you know, being out in public or comments made on
Speaker 3: social media, you know all those type of things.
Speaker 1: But do you think there's a level of or should
Speaker 1: there be a level of responsibility to a sports person
Speaker 1: who is getting paid good money that cuts across their
Speaker 1: own belief system? Do you think is that? I mean,
Speaker 1: is that a fair thing? Do you think explain that
Speaker 1: more to me? Like Israel's view on homosexuality relative to
Speaker 1: his religious beliefs, which he seems to be fairly strident about,
Speaker 1: there was an expectation that he didn't take that into
Speaker 1: the public are in it because he had he's a
Speaker 1: representative player on good money. It brings potentially brings a
Speaker 1: game and a disrepute because the administration of the game
Speaker 1: believes that has a different belief system and more majority
Speaker 1: belief system. That is, you know, there's nothing wrong with
Speaker 1: homosexualities except that blah blah blah. And therefore, if you
Speaker 1: go and say something that's against our group belief that's
Speaker 1: going to be a problem for you. Ultimately you Israel,
Speaker 1: which is sort of what happened, and I'm not asking
Speaker 1: you for do give me an ethical view on between
Speaker 1: his beliefs and what the Rape Union beliefs are. I'm
Speaker 1: not a territory, No, that's not territory. I want to go
Speaker 1: to it. But as a sportsperson, a young sports person
Speaker 1: who firmly believes in anything, is it important or how
Speaker 1: important is it for the administration and tell him how
Speaker 1: to speak publicly?
Speaker 3: Well, it is important, But how that's managed, because again
Speaker 3: we're talking about athletes who represent a community, and that's
Speaker 3: a good thing as long as it's you know, a healthy,
Speaker 3: positive discussion and you know, so how that's communicated. You
Speaker 3: want different that's the great thing about a team. You've
Speaker 3: got different personalities and represent different things. And but the
Speaker 3: communication and how that's then portrayed is probably the discussion
Speaker 3: that you know, I'm not sure who's nailing it at
Speaker 3: the moment. I haven't digged deep enough into it of
Speaker 3: the sports around the world that really nail this this
Speaker 3: type of a thing. So yeah, I mean, I'd like
Speaker 3: to know how it's how it's done best, because yeah,
Speaker 3: it's tricky.
Speaker 2: It's tricky water, it really is.
Speaker 1: You know, in some respece it can stuff someone's career.
Speaker 1: But a lot of people just say, listen, I get it.
Speaker 1: I'll hold my views myself. I've got my views of
Speaker 1: my community views. I'll just put my I'll prosecute my
Speaker 1: community view, my view within my own community, and I'll
Speaker 1: just be quite relative to everything else. But other people
Speaker 1: sort of see themselves as so strident that they nearly
Speaker 1: feel as they've got an obligation relative to their community,
Speaker 1: their personal community, their private community that actually is over
Speaker 1: above the Rugby Union community. So you all of a
Speaker 1: sudden you get conflicted. Now you got to run in
Speaker 1: with Eddie Jones, didn't you know, Like, here's your coach,
Speaker 1: and you know if you don't like him, he doesn't
Speaker 1: like you. It sort of limits your career to some extent,
Speaker 1: and it did to some extent. At what point do
Speaker 1: you say, okay, stuff that I'll just fall in line,
Speaker 1: I'll do what I've got to do. I'll do it.
Speaker 2: I'll do it.
Speaker 1: My career is more important, and I'm just going to
Speaker 1: fall in line and do what I'm told.
Speaker 2: Well, what's your what You've got to ask yourself, what's
Speaker 2: your hierarchy of? You know, what do you want to achieve?
Speaker 3: If you want to achieve you know, I guess disagreement
Speaker 3: with a coach, or do I want to fall in
Speaker 3: line because I want to make the team, or do
Speaker 3: I want to and I'm not saying that was my situation.
Speaker 2: Or you've got to.
Speaker 3: Choose where you value your things and then whatever is
Speaker 3: at the top you're going to go after that. I
Speaker 3: think that's that's the simple way of doing it. That's interesting,
Speaker 3: so and I think I sort of agree with that.
Speaker 3: Not never been in that position, but like I think
Speaker 3: I agree that that seems to be the most practical outcome.
Speaker 3: In other words, if you choose a path, then just
Speaker 3: that's your path. Don't worry about the consequences because you
Speaker 3: can't complain about the consequences if you choose that path.
Speaker 3: When you make the priority you said, that's my priority,
Speaker 3: God in his case is my priority, and the written
Speaker 3: scriptures is my priority. My community and my private community
Speaker 3: is my priority, then you can't really complain about the consequences.
Speaker 1: At the end of the day.
Speaker 3: Well, you've got to accept whatever they're going to be, right,
Speaker 3: because you can't you can't choose what the outcome is
Speaker 3: going to be.
Speaker 2: That's what we like as athletes.
Speaker 3: I mean, you you want to try and control as
Speaker 3: much as you possibly can control, but you're never going
Speaker 3: to know what the fallout is in a game sense,
Speaker 3: on the field, you never know what the fallout is
Speaker 3: going to be, you know, off the field, you never
Speaker 3: know what people are going to take this conversation for
Speaker 3: even as an example, and then how that's going to go.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I think got to be comfortable in the
Speaker 3: position or the stance that you take.
Speaker 2: But then after the fact, that's what reviews about.
Speaker 3: Like you see that week to week in sport you
Speaker 3: see that, and like I talked about, if someone makes
Speaker 3: a mistake or if someone you get good feedback. Okay,
Speaker 3: well do I want to do that again? Do I
Speaker 3: not want to do that again? What would I change?
Speaker 3: How do I want to go? Do I to change
Speaker 3: my values or my hierarchy after that? You know, So
Speaker 3: that reflection and review is important, but you've got to
Speaker 3: make a choice at the end of the day, don't you.
Speaker 2: And that comes down to action.
Speaker 1: Let's have a look at who Michael who was growing up?
Speaker 1: Manly kid?
Speaker 2: Yep, local school.
Speaker 1: Where do you go to school?
Speaker 2: So I went to school in Chatswood, went high school
Speaker 2: in Chatswood. Just wanted to get me off the.
Speaker 3: Beaches, I think, So stay school or a Raby school? Yeah,
Speaker 3: same piece, same yeah, so good. Yeah, not a big
Speaker 3: Rugby school, but a Rugby school.
Speaker 1: Mum, would you wanted to get away from the Lord
Speaker 1: and beach?
Speaker 2: Did you?
Speaker 1: You know what's what they say about and although they
Speaker 1: also say now about the Southern Shop, and they also
Speaker 1: now say and they're definitely missaying about these for a
Speaker 1: long time. So but for sure Mum wanted to get
Speaker 1: you away from the beach scene.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well I think so.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean when we talk about it now, there
Speaker 3: was an element of you know being I mean Chuts
Speaker 3: was right on the train line. There, you'd get exposure
Speaker 3: to different things. It was a good school day school,
Speaker 3: not a not a boarding like I had to travel
Speaker 3: a bit to get there, you know, from Choloroid Platto,
Speaker 3: so we weren't in Manly.
Speaker 1: So you're on the Plato like you're right in the
Speaker 1: heart of the Northern.
Speaker 2: Beaches, thick of it mate.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so surfer surfer you're serving that, Yeah, surfing then.
Speaker 1: Who were in the were also in the surf club?
Speaker 2: Did Manly Surf Club?
Speaker 1: Manly Surf Club? Okay, so you're on the beach weekends
Speaker 1: then whenever you get a opportunity to go and have
Speaker 1: a ride of the board. Mum was pretty intuity then
Speaker 1: because she knows where she knows that she knew, I
Speaker 1: should say, the the seduction of that whole lifestyle. Yeah,
Speaker 1: what it brings with it, you know, drugs, party loose.
Speaker 1: You're a kid at this stage, you're only twelve thirty
Speaker 1: and you go in to high school.
Speaker 3: Yeah no, well, I mean yeah, there's elements of the
Speaker 3: stuff that you talk about anywhere you go, you know,
Speaker 3: rugby teams or surf clubs or whatever. But there's also
Speaker 3: the other stuff around surf club the around fit, healthy
Speaker 3: guys and girls getting out. It's an early like early
Speaker 3: morning community because the ocean is the best in the morning,
Speaker 3: you know, so you're spending your time on the beach,
Speaker 3: you're staying healthy. Like I think that that's probably some
Speaker 3: of the values that a surf club has.
Speaker 2: Like I'm back down there now.
Speaker 3: I train with a bunch of guys on a Tuesday morning,
Speaker 3: ranging from seventy down.
Speaker 2: I think I'm the youngest down there now.
Speaker 3: So when I turn up there and it's just you know, old,
Speaker 3: everything's got rust on a gym on a Tuesday morning,
Speaker 3: and when my knees are a bit cranky, I've got
Speaker 3: no excuse.
Speaker 2: Mates.
Speaker 3: So there's a few older fellas in there. So it's
Speaker 3: cool to be part of that because now I'm not
Speaker 3: playing in a team. In that sort of team environment.
Speaker 3: It's kind of like this little little guys group that
Speaker 3: gets up early and trains on a five point fifteen
Speaker 3: on an on a Tuesday morning.
Speaker 1: How good? How good?
Speaker 2: Is that too?
Speaker 1: As good? Especially the old guys. I'm one of the
Speaker 1: old guys. So you were you surprise? So what point
Speaker 1: did you realize that you could play footy?
Speaker 2: Look?
Speaker 3: I represented a lot of rep teams growing up. I
Speaker 3: was competitive younger of an older brother, so he's eighteen
Speaker 3: months older than me, so everything we did was competition.
Speaker 2: Mate.
Speaker 3: So like you know, if we're out in the surf
Speaker 3: and I see him catch a good wave, I'm not
Speaker 3: looking because he might check in and you know he's
Speaker 3: got one up on me. And you know, we didn't
Speaker 3: play a lot of footy in the backyard. But you know,
Speaker 3: even stuff like we're playing, you know, PlayStation games, you'd
Speaker 3: have to play together because if we're playing against each
Speaker 3: other it would end in not fights, so we aren't fighters,
Speaker 3: but arguments and just you know, like a saltiness for
Speaker 3: a little bit. So yeah, it was always games that
Speaker 3: would do together and stuff like that. But look, I
Speaker 3: think being the younger of an older brother naturally you
Speaker 3: just become super competitive. So in terms of rugby, like
Speaker 3: it was a sport, I like the physicality of it.
Speaker 1: We always you always solid.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was doing well.
Speaker 3: My dad's of a palm originally, so he came out
Speaker 3: and landed in Manly and as you know poems do,
Speaker 3: or you do when you turn up somewhere. The beautiful
Speaker 3: thing about rugby is you get involved in that community.
Speaker 3: And you know, he credits being involved in that sort
Speaker 3: of manly circle is giving him, you know, a life
Speaker 3: out here and his network and his friends and you know,
Speaker 3: meeting my mum eventually, who was from Concord in the West.
Speaker 2: You know, so.
Speaker 3: We very much, you know, that's why they we're part
Speaker 3: of the surf club, part of the Maley Marlins and
Speaker 3: that sort of thing. And in terms of becoming good
Speaker 3: at footy, like I think I loved the Wallabies and the
Speaker 3: Wallabies when I was growing up. Ninety nine World Cup
Speaker 3: two thousand and one, I go and watch them beat
Speaker 3: the Lions in the Third Test, which we've got coming
Speaker 3: out next year, which is hugely exciting. Two thousand and three,
Speaker 3: I went to the semi final where they beat the
Speaker 3: Kiwi's Sterling Mortlocke famously takes intercept and runs. I was
Speaker 3: at the stadium when that happened, so fond memories of rugby,
Speaker 3: but never I thought that, Okay, that's something I'm going
Speaker 3: to do. It was very much like I love the game.
Speaker 3: I love competing and at each level you get to
Speaker 3: or for me very much it was okay, this is
Speaker 3: a new chance to test myself. And then when you
Speaker 3: get comfortable and you feel like you play well and
Speaker 3: play well consistently, then you're like, okay, well what's the
Speaker 3: next level look like? And it just goes on and on.
Speaker 1: So was there somebody that you were looking up to? Like,
Speaker 1: I mean when I was a kid, I was in
Speaker 1: rugby league terms, I always idolized as a couple of
Speaker 1: particular individuals who were playing in the cannery banks and
Speaker 1: combat those in those days, and to be all kid like,
Speaker 1: you know, I sort of pretended to be them. And
Speaker 1: was there some of you idolized in rugby terms?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: There was probably three players, so George greg and Stephen Larkham.
Speaker 3: Now the nine ten. I've never played nine to ten,
Speaker 3: But I just I thought that combination was amazing. But
Speaker 3: the guy in particular that played my position was George Smith.
Speaker 3: So George Smith, he actually went to school right near
Speaker 3: my house at Chromer, so I was a Colorio Plato
Speaker 3: grew up. He was down at Cromer at high school.
Speaker 3: Played for Manley Marlins, again my club, so you know,
Speaker 3: there was that connection of where just location right right.
Speaker 3: And what I loved about George was he had impact
Speaker 3: on both sides of the ball. So I think some
Speaker 3: of the times the criticism of players in played the
Speaker 3: same position as I do, as you you're either defensive
Speaker 3: or all attack. And I liked with George that he
Speaker 3: had impact on both sides of the ball and he
Speaker 3: was consistent. You know, it wasn't rocks or diamonds every week.
Speaker 2: It was just amazing.
Speaker 3: So he was down at the Brumbies and I finished
Speaker 3: school and went down to the Brumby side, you know,
Speaker 3: a season and a bit with George, which was really cool.
Speaker 1: So was that around It was Timmy McGann around those days?
Speaker 1: Was Tim mcgahann, No, No, it wasn't. He was before you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's much before you. Okay, So a couple of because
Speaker 1: did you ever get do you ever get because he
Speaker 1: went off to play West Tigers? Did you ever get
Speaker 1: produced in the thing I go play rugby league?
Speaker 2: No? Not not.
Speaker 1: I was looking at you, I can see you and
Speaker 1: playing at as a back roll or as a lock.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I would have loved to, yeah, but I was so
Speaker 3: hell bent on being a part of a Wallaby team
Speaker 3: and a war Tarz team and trying to get take
Speaker 3: try and win a World Cup, try and win a
Speaker 3: blooders Low. And it wasn't until later in my career
Speaker 3: that you go, what could I have had a little
Speaker 3: lock at that? But yeah, you know it's easy to
Speaker 3: say now, but I think the right time would be
Speaker 3: like what a maybe Mark and Joseph for doing it
Speaker 3: well younger than.
Speaker 1: I have in the twenties.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but like you know, mid.
Speaker 3: Twenties, twenty six, twenty seven, you're right, physical leader, at
Speaker 3: a really good spot to do it. You're hungry, you
Speaker 3: know what your game and mentally your game can look like. Yeah,
Speaker 3: there's going to be different elements of what you need
Speaker 3: to do on the field, but mentally you know what
Speaker 3: you're about. I reckon that would have been a good
Speaker 3: time to do it.
Speaker 1: So who is your favorite player to play with.
Speaker 3: I've got plenty of Bernard Foley, Rob Horn, Nick Pipps,
Speaker 3: Adam Ashley Cooper.
Speaker 1: Why pick one? Unto me? Why?
Speaker 2: Oh? Good?
Speaker 3: Like they're good friends, good friends. But I loved playing
Speaker 3: with guys who were consistent and competitive. They would just
Speaker 3: get on the field and it meant.
Speaker 1: A lot to them in that they want to win.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wanted to win. That's infectious to be around.
Speaker 3: Like there was a there's a group of guys you know,
Speaker 3: rugby hasn't been you know really, I mean the top
Speaker 3: of the log for a for a fair while now,
Speaker 3: so part of a crew going hey, let's do our
Speaker 3: absolute utmost to try and get there now. It was
Speaker 3: a huge exciting prospect and it was tough, you know,
Speaker 3: like it's super competitive to try and get there and stay.
Speaker 3: There's a difference between you know, one off good good
Speaker 3: win here. But to have consistency over a long period
Speaker 3: of time, that's really hard. And that's what we're trying
Speaker 3: to trying to do as a team. And being involved
Speaker 3: with your Michael Checks, your Dave Rennies, like you know,
Speaker 3: great coaches. Respectfully, that's what they wanted. It's a lot
Speaker 3: of fun to be a part of. That's why I
Speaker 3: played like it's a it's a tough game. Yes you well,
Speaker 3: you're well paid, Yes you get to play footy for
Speaker 3: a living, all those sort of stuff, But might as
Speaker 3: well do it. You might as well rip in and
Speaker 3: try and try and get a couple you know, wins
Speaker 3: along the way.
Speaker 1: But how so because you know Austray and Ruby starting
Speaker 1: to show some signs now, but prior to more recently
Speaker 1: it was a leak looking a bit sorry. How important
Speaker 1: is it for four or five guys in aside to
Speaker 1: say we're going to win this, We've got to get it,
Speaker 1: We've got to get it together. I mean, does that
Speaker 1: start with a coach or does that start with let's
Speaker 1: call it the senior guys, or not even senior guys,
Speaker 1: just the team, four or five guys saying, listen, we've
Speaker 1: got to win this next whatever it is, this next series,
Speaker 1: whatever series is, and take it upon yourselves to do it.
Speaker 1: Was that something that you guys were doing like in
Speaker 1: your environment?
Speaker 2: Oh, I tried to, tried to. I don't think we
Speaker 2: didn't get it right.
Speaker 3: Definitely part of a group that got it right once
Speaker 3: and almost twice. It got into the final of twenty
Speaker 3: fifteen World Cup. We won super title in twenty four
Speaker 3: team with a bunch of those guys that I mentioned.
Speaker 3: You know, so, look, it's going to take everyone within
Speaker 3: a squad to win something proper.
Speaker 1: Does it mean everyone's going to get on board, everyone's
Speaker 1: gonna have the same magnitude or is it just is
Speaker 1: there a small group that sort of drags everyone together
Speaker 1: along with it like a comet. You know, there's the
Speaker 1: comment there's a tail and the gravity of the comet
Speaker 1: pulls the rest. I mean, because I can't imagine trying
Speaker 1: to get fifteen guys or a whole squad whatever that is,
Speaker 1: twenty odd twenty odd guys all on the same page,
Speaker 1: like all beers keen to do something as the next bloke.
Speaker 1: If you get four or five, I can see that happens.
Speaker 1: Like in Roby La, your spine wins your games and
Speaker 1: you get all the rest of support, but just a
Speaker 1: good spine to win the games. You've got Penrith for
Speaker 1: good Melbourne and that's probably been the same for a
Speaker 1: long long time. In rugby union, is there any sort
Speaker 1: of equivalent in terms of not necessarily a spine but
Speaker 1: just in terms of the leadership group, the senior team,
Speaker 1: the senior guys.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think a spine's relevant in terms of, you know,
Speaker 3: the importance of having you know, the right positions on
Speaker 3: the real influential positions on the field lockdown.
Speaker 1: So I think, what are they? What are they in rugby?
Speaker 3: Oh, I mean at this day and age, it'll be
Speaker 3: a tight head prop tight head lock one or two.
Speaker 3: Good back rowers nine to ten are always going to
Speaker 3: be important. And then I'm probably gonna get slaid for this,
Speaker 3: but you know, because everyone every position is important.
Speaker 2: But yeah, then you know.
Speaker 3: A backfield player, backfield player being sorry, a winger, fullback
Speaker 3: wing actually probably know you wingers. You could probably actually
Speaker 3: a center, a really good center twelve thirteen center.
Speaker 1: Yeah, really a center. It's not a fullback.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean that's.
Speaker 1: Interesting because you know, rugby leg is a bit opposite
Speaker 1: them because you get to fed the ball every fifth
Speaker 1: tackle or the fullback, so you need something that could
Speaker 1: take the ball up every every fifth tackle. But there's
Speaker 1: a different game. But rugby union a center because that's
Speaker 1: interesting because they've got they've gone and sign of Joseph
Speaker 1: as a center and I'm just wondering whether that is
Speaker 1: the game plan, that is the thinking right now.
Speaker 3: For him As a center, well, I mean he's got
Speaker 3: the athletic prowess to play anywhere.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's one of the luxuries. Bad enough.
Speaker 3: He's big enough, strong enough, agile enough, looks switched on
Speaker 3: enough to be able to get it all together.
Speaker 2: Center's really hard. Defensively, you're very You have.
Speaker 1: To be a very as a defender.
Speaker 3: You mean as against and well both both, but as
Speaker 3: a defender you are a critical part in communicating what's
Speaker 3: going on. You've got a bit more time, so you've
Speaker 3: got vision, so you've got to make decisions around you know,
Speaker 3: you know the numbers you have where you are on
Speaker 3: the field. So it's a really nuanced position.
Speaker 2: That's thirteen. Yes, so senator's called thirteen. Yeah.
Speaker 1: At center, you're calling defensive positions. You're saying, hang on,
Speaker 1: move across here. You mean, from that point of view
Speaker 1: as a team that's not called the team manager, but
Speaker 1: as a defensive manager like full back and rugby league
Speaker 1: is that person because he's always direking the position or
Speaker 1: she if its general w but where he's drenking everyone
Speaker 1: into position because they can see everything from there. But
Speaker 1: you're saying center and rugby union is really important in
Speaker 1: that regard. Yeah, yeah, I think so. Wow, that's interesting.
Speaker 1: So therefore center is like a sort of like a
Speaker 1: spine player for rugby union.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and like I mean the thing, I don't want
Speaker 3: to say, you have to have those positions, but you know,
Speaker 3: I mentioned those guys up front because if you don't
Speaker 3: have a good set piece, you're not going to win
Speaker 3: test Rugby mentioned your nine to ten, the quarterbacks of
Speaker 3: the game, they get the most touches, most hands on
Speaker 3: the ball, so that's obviously going to be a spine position.
Speaker 3: And then your communication from yet you're back three, all
Speaker 3: your centers, and I'm not saying it's solely a thirteen
Speaker 3: or it's solely a twelve. We saw Israel go through
Speaker 3: the wing. His first debut was on the wing, scores
Speaker 3: a double in you know, Alliance test match. So he
Speaker 3: went through the wing, went to fullback, tried center, so
Speaker 3: he was moving around a fair bit as well. So
Speaker 3: I'm not saying any one of those positions, but if
Speaker 3: you have a strong enough personality in and around that,
Speaker 3: but without doubt, you're three and your number four or
Speaker 3: five are critical just in terms of a set piece.
Speaker 1: So is it do you think it's important in raby
Speaker 1: union to have I don't like using the word because
Speaker 1: rugby union is even more worry about this sort of stuff,
Speaker 1: but like can enforce up front? Oh mate, I'd love
Speaker 1: to have an enforcer in every team. Yeah, like someone
Speaker 1: and enforce of being someone. Everybody's going shit, I don't
Speaker 1: last thing I want to do is have to pack
Speaker 1: down against this guy or run at this guy or
Speaker 1: have him run at me.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I think I think Bobby Valentini is our
Speaker 3: number six or eight at the moments becoming that for
Speaker 3: Australia traditionally a Whye Cliff, Parlou Toddai Kefu, guys like that.
Speaker 3: But I think, like growing up, I remember almost going
Speaker 3: to play club rugby and the Wallabies sometimes had to
Speaker 3: come back down and play club rugby. And there was
Speaker 3: a player, Dan Vickerman, big second row up and he
Speaker 3: was a guy that just took people like me out
Speaker 3: around the ruck. So if I'm trying to get a
Speaker 3: turnover or turn over the ball, I would have been
Speaker 3: you know, eighteen nineteen at this point and this is
Speaker 3: what this guy did and he you know, would break
Speaker 3: guy's ribs, he'd hit you. And this was when the
Speaker 3: game there was a bit there wasn't camera angles on
Speaker 3: every play like there is now, so you could get
Speaker 3: away with a little bit more.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, big guy, Yeah, like one of the big locks,
Speaker 2: you know, big locks. And that was his role, just
Speaker 2: to find you at a run.
Speaker 3: And I'm like, before the game, I'm thinking, and I'm
Speaker 3: playing for man leaguers going to I think he was
Speaker 3: Sydney Union player. You're thinking, like he's taking up mental
Speaker 3: space before you've even played the game. Yeah, and you're
Speaker 3: looking for him, Well you're looking for him, or if
Speaker 3: you're not, and he finds you in the game, well
Speaker 3: you're definitely looking for him after that. So, without doubt,
Speaker 3: I think there's a place for that. And you know,
Speaker 3: that's a tough thing with all these you know, contact
Speaker 3: rules and height rules and everything like that, is you
Speaker 3: don't want the game to you don't want the big
Speaker 3: man to be taken out of the game, and we're fine.
Speaker 3: I think rugby union more than rugby league's tough because
Speaker 3: the game's played a lot at different levels. You know,
Speaker 3: you've got the balls played on the ground, you know
Speaker 3: whereas rugby league is much more up and down the field,
Speaker 3: but rugby union like you could probably slow mow every
Speaker 3: ruck and that'd be head contact. So how do you
Speaker 3: get that balance right? Because you don't want to take
Speaker 3: the big man out of the game, because that's what
Speaker 3: makes it awesome.
Speaker 1: Because that's one of the things I wanted to talk
Speaker 1: to you about. I mean, rules, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: rules in ruby. You and I get confused. But if
Speaker 1: the point you just made about big men, what's interesting
Speaker 1: about that? And and by the way, Joseph Swalley actually
Speaker 1: suffered this in the State of Origin game because he's
Speaker 1: he's six foot five and he tackled someone who's much
Speaker 1: much smaller whether he could could have pulled out of
Speaker 1: the tackle or not, but end up having head contact.
Speaker 1: And that was his last State of Origin. He only
Speaker 1: played ten minutes. You never had to play the rest
Speaker 1: of the game. And Joseph is not a vindictive style
Speaker 1: of person. That's not his go as far as you know,
Speaker 1: I've observed. But it was just by virtual of the fact,
Speaker 1: a little bit of carelessness, but by virtually the fact
Speaker 1: he's very big, big guy on smaller guy. Rugby Uni
Speaker 1: you can't tackle above here above the nipple right.
Speaker 3: At club level you can there's a bit more as
Speaker 3: a bit more at a test level. Yeah, but if
Speaker 3: there's any chin yeah, strife esally so do you.
Speaker 2: Think that.
Speaker 1: It's not an as not as interesting a game because
Speaker 1: it's a contact game. If the big men can't do
Speaker 1: their thing and take some risk at that, there might
Speaker 1: be some head knock. In other words, I'm a big guy,
Speaker 1: I'm six foot five. I try to tackle you. You're
Speaker 1: not six foot five. There's a risk in there that
Speaker 1: I can't adjust because you might just fall down a
Speaker 1: little bit, and I can't just quick enough because all
Speaker 1: this stuff's in a split second. My god, like, these
Speaker 1: things happen so fast, and then I might accidentally hit you.
Speaker 1: Do you think there's too much of that and rugby therefore,
Speaker 1: as a result of that, to me, rules around that stuff,
Speaker 1: cards you're off for the game, teams down a player.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean safety needs to be first and foremant.
Speaker 1: How do we balance this stuff up there?
Speaker 3: But you're putting yourself onto the field in a contact sport,
Speaker 3: so there's going to be an element of risk and
Speaker 3: going to be an element of getting it wrong. Like
Speaker 3: you said, there's no perfect way to balance a guy
Speaker 3: that's five foot nothing and a guy.
Speaker 2: That's six foot six.
Speaker 3: There's going to be some disparity there now in terms
Speaker 3: of the recklessness, and you take a risk, you make
Speaker 3: a call, well, you've got to try and make sure
Speaker 3: that calls right. That's like trying to take a shot
Speaker 3: at goal. You've got to you've got to aim up
Speaker 3: and make sure it goes between the sticks. I think
Speaker 3: it's the same with getting a shot appropriately, and I
Speaker 3: think it can be played safe. But we've also got
Speaker 3: to accept the fact that as soon as you are
Speaker 3: running into each other at full pace, there's an element
Speaker 3: of risk and an element of things that you can't control. Yeah,
Speaker 3: boots slips out, you know. Unfortunately the Reese Waltz, there's
Speaker 3: definitely slippage before Sullly did his, so, you know, and
Speaker 3: saying that, I think he surely though, made the decision
Speaker 3: to try and iron him out and hit him in
Speaker 3: the right spot, but at that pace, and but it
Speaker 3: just didn't work out that way. And it was and
Speaker 3: it was a shocking one to see. But in terms
Speaker 3: of like a perfect storm, it was it was that
Speaker 3: I mean, had Reese Walsh carried it the right height.
Speaker 3: It's one of the hits of the century. Unfortunately it's
Speaker 3: the hit of the century with all the wrong sort
Speaker 3: of marrings about it. But there's got to be an
Speaker 3: acceptance of, you know, a rugby accident. That happens. But
Speaker 3: I think that was probably that was dealt with probably
Speaker 3: the right way.
Speaker 1: I think so, except that I don't think it was reckless.
Speaker 1: I don't think there was any like. You can either
Speaker 1: say an individual intended to hurt somebody and we don't
Speaker 1: know what anyone's intent is because we can't look in
Speaker 1: their brain, but or they were reckless to the outcome.
Speaker 3: I think he was pretty It was pretty clear he
Speaker 3: was trying to get a hold of him, but he
Speaker 3: wasn't trying to head and he.
Speaker 1: Totally was trying to him out, but hit him in
Speaker 1: the chest as opposed to him in the head. The
Speaker 1: question becomes it becomes a value judgment. Then the referee
Speaker 1: makes a decision, actually climate a decision that as far
Speaker 1: as he was concerned, it was either intentional or reckless.
Speaker 1: Either way you're off. But then the game just completely turns.
Speaker 1: We don't have in Reragul league where you have in
Speaker 1: Reaby Union, I think it's like ten or twenty minutes
Speaker 1: later you can send a replacement on.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Is that it just a test level or is
Speaker 1: that everything across everything? So which makes sense that that's
Speaker 1: to me quite a sensible thing. I mean in raby
Speaker 1: leion needs to think about that sort of stuff. But
Speaker 1: because at the end of the day, the game is
Speaker 1: a game of entertainment, and who are we entertaining. We're
Speaker 1: entertaining the audience, the spectators, and half the audience. Let's
Speaker 1: make the assumption, but half the audience goes on, half
Speaker 1: the audience goes the other team, especially in the state
Speaker 1: of origin for example. So therefore it's unfair for the
Speaker 1: audience to some extent because we didn't see the contest
Speaker 1: we wanted to see. We wanted to see at least
Speaker 1: see thirteen or thirteen or fifteen or fifteen. I don't
Speaker 1: want to see fourteen versus fifteen, And I don't even
Speaker 1: care if it's twenty minutes, because that twenty minutes turns
Speaker 1: the game. So if you're if you're in fourteen, you're
Speaker 1: playing against fifteen. Even if you get a replacement player
Speaker 1: on comes back on is it twenty minutes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, twenty minutes. Yea, my legs are gone.
Speaker 3: It's so if the player, if the player goes off
Speaker 3: and it's deemed a red card, so he will get
Speaker 3: a yellow card, which is ten minutes. And if they
Speaker 3: go no, no, that's the severity is worse than that,
Speaker 3: he can't come back on. You can bring a different
Speaker 3: player on after that twenty minutes.
Speaker 1: After twenty minutes. So during the twenty minute period, the
Speaker 1: fourteen side is that they're cooking their legs and every
Speaker 1: other part of their body, especially if you're up front,
Speaker 1: so you're getting cooked. The guy comes on fresh, then
Speaker 1: you do the person comes on fresh and say, okay,
Speaker 1: it's good, but it doesn't account for the forteen other
Speaker 1: players that are just completely stuffed. So all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: I have a and this is a general question I
Speaker 1: want to put you about rugby union. These sorts of
Speaker 1: rules can affect the audience's affection for the game, and
Speaker 1: as a result of using you lose audience. Audience migrates
Speaker 1: to something else. You go watch something else because they
Speaker 1: love sports, so they go somewhere else. And once you
Speaker 1: get lashed onto something else, it's hard to get them
Speaker 1: back and game snood audiences. That's where you make your
Speaker 1: money because you know you sell. You sell the audience
Speaker 1: to the advertiser. The advertiser page the money, the money
Speaker 1: pays the players. Players get attracted to play the game
Speaker 1: because they're going to get pay good money. Takes Joseph
Speaker 1: out because he's like he's a way outsider in terms
Speaker 1: of what he gets paid. But the rest of the players.
Speaker 1: If you want to get the best game possible here
Speaker 1: in Australia, you've got to play the players. Pay the
Speaker 1: players the best amount of money they can get. Otherwise
Speaker 1: they're going to play rugby league. A playerfl when their
Speaker 1: little kids apparents everybody doing that for William cricket you
Speaker 1: a top of a cricket players really pays really well.
Speaker 1: So and a lot of these players can either play
Speaker 1: rugby league and play aflor they can play rugby union,
Speaker 1: they can play cricket too. I don't know what the
Speaker 1: hell it is, but a lot of sports people you
Speaker 1: probably can play good golf and imagine being play tenners
Speaker 1: on golf or cricket. I mean, there's something weird about
Speaker 1: sportsman athletes that can do everything pretty much. So what
Speaker 1: do you think the state of rugby union is, then
Speaker 1: do they need to just chill out a little bit
Speaker 1: and relax a bit.
Speaker 3: Well, I think there needs to be a level of
Speaker 3: acceptance that it's a dangerous game that you can try
Speaker 3: and make safer. So what I mean by that is
Speaker 3: you're like you're running into each other at full pace.
Speaker 3: There's an element of risk, but that's kind of why
Speaker 3: guys play it, Aside from some of the I meant,
Speaker 3: some guys over in Dubai just in the last week.
Speaker 3: They're forty five playing rugby still just casual ats love it,
Speaker 3: the contact, the camaraderie, all that stuff. There's something about
Speaker 3: it that draw, you know, people are drawn to it.
Speaker 3: So there's an element of risk, like there is going
Speaker 3: in the surf, jumping in your car, all that sort
Speaker 3: of stuff, and you can always choose not to play it. Now,
Speaker 3: in terms of the product, I also don't want to
Speaker 3: see a product where Reese Walsh's getting that and happening often,
Speaker 3: you know. So I think that that happened in the
Speaker 3: first game, but it ended up being a remarkable series
Speaker 3: and I don't know, actually I wouldn't know the stats
Speaker 3: around the second and third game. But I don't remember
Speaker 3: there being a significant one like that. Again enough so
Speaker 3: the players adjust and manage and get maybe and there
Speaker 3: was no shortage of intact in that third game. Bloody hell,
Speaker 3: Like those guys are taking years off their lives. A remarkable,
Speaker 3: remarkable game to watch. One of the best contact sports
Speaker 3: games I've seen, that third third one, one of the toughest.
Speaker 3: Oh it's incredible, you know.
Speaker 1: So they have a good product. Okay, yeah, good product.
Speaker 1: That's got rugby union. What does rugby union got to
Speaker 1: do to get an equivalent product?
Speaker 2: Okay?
Speaker 3: So su Ali He's game in England was a pretty
Speaker 3: good product, his first his debut down to the wire,
Speaker 3: good contest.
Speaker 1: Soft hands too amazing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's got great finess, doesn't he.
Speaker 1: He jumps up and just handle the ball over like
Speaker 1: literally put it into his hands like that.
Speaker 3: Can I just talk on that week like that is
Speaker 3: a big test, Like that's a big test, no matter
Speaker 3: what you're talking about.
Speaker 2: Playing at Twickenham, it's always a big test. But to
Speaker 2: do that.
Speaker 3: Without playing a professional game of rugby union, Yeah, he's
Speaker 3: played massive games of rugby league and whatnot. As a
Speaker 3: debut game at in a tough spot, we're talking about
Speaker 3: the s as being a tough spot and he's got
Speaker 3: some great communicators around him in some of the players
Speaker 3: with him, Lenny Katau particularly and Andrew Kellaway in that backfield.
Speaker 3: But that was an incredible performance, you know out the
Speaker 3: gate like that was remarkable.
Speaker 1: Actually, and a lot of people I know saying they
Speaker 1: want to watch the next game because of that, because
Speaker 1: a we won. That helps you.
Speaker 2: But but also I've beating the Poms.
Speaker 1: We do and we haven't been doing it very often,
Speaker 1: but you know, winners agrinners, as you know, but watching
Speaker 1: a lot of people watch the second game because of
Speaker 1: hoping that just would be selected or at least get
Speaker 1: off the bench and play, which he did. But like
Speaker 1: that's that. Do you think this is a strategic move
Speaker 1: then by rugby unions, the austrain rugby union, that is
Speaker 1: a strategic way of getting people back to the rugby
Speaker 1: union games, yep, or signing him for that matter. I mean,
Speaker 1: is this a master stroke by Hamish mcclennan, Like, is
Speaker 1: it a master stroke of signing up some one like
Speaker 1: that and having a lot of vision that this guy
Speaker 1: could well bring the people back to the game.
Speaker 3: I mean, if it does do you think it will do?
Speaker 3: I think it will. I think he's going to be
Speaker 3: a star in the game. I think is physically too good,
Speaker 3: not too but then injury, how the team functions. We
Speaker 3: know that one guy can't carry a team in union
Speaker 3: or league or a AFL, so you've got to have
Speaker 3: a good team around you. They're starting to see some
Speaker 3: great shoots in that team, well coached, starting to get confident,
Speaker 3: so things like that. The thing that we know we've
Speaker 3: got coming is lines is a massive injection of cash
Speaker 3: and interest in the country for rugby union. And then
Speaker 3: you've got a home World Cup which is just no
Speaker 3: home Work Cup twenty seven twenty seven, so the team
Speaker 3: has time to build. So that's the third biggest event
Speaker 3: in the world behind you know, Soctball Cup viewership, viewership, Yeah,
Speaker 3: so massive, massive thing coming into our country in that time.
Speaker 3: So it's a hugely exciting one. Now he's surely you're
Speaker 3: going to be a big part of that. Well, all
Speaker 3: signs point to yes of what's been done in a
Speaker 3: very short period of time, But then there's so many factors,
Speaker 3: you know, within that. I don't think he's signed till
Speaker 3: twenty twenty seven I'm not sure.
Speaker 2: If he years. If he is, like he's got a
Speaker 2: five year deal, Oh okay, then he is. So you
Speaker 2: know he's got to be managed well.
Speaker 3: I think, you know, you take a look at some
Speaker 3: of our you know, other codes around the world or
Speaker 3: codes in our own country who manage top line play
Speaker 3: as well. We can't just expect him to play eighty
Speaker 3: minutes every week, train hard, blah blah blah. How can
Speaker 3: we get the best out of him? And you know,
Speaker 3: Joe Schmid, who's at the top at the moment, who's
Speaker 3: the Wallaby coach, has a really good understanding of that.
Speaker 3: Coming from an island background. He managed to do that
Speaker 3: with an island team and turn them into a well
Speaker 3: managed unit. So hopefully that that's able to be done
Speaker 3: with Joseph alongside other key spine guys like we talked
Speaker 3: about earlier.
Speaker 1: So if Australia, how do we get I mean, I
Speaker 1: mean I had Oils Stevie Oyles and he didn't hold back.
Speaker 1: But how do we improve rugby union like at every level? Now,
Speaker 1: let's take it right down from you know, winning games
Speaker 1: at the on the global level the Australian side, then
Speaker 1: down into the you know the war Tars, et cetera,
Speaker 1: then down into Rotars, Brumbies and all the other sides,
Speaker 1: and then bring it down to the club level, but
Speaker 1: then bring it down to the school level so that
Speaker 1: rugby union can attract the best possible talent, because like
Speaker 1: AFL has got a big march on both rugby league
Speaker 1: and rugby union. Like in terms of New South Wales
Speaker 1: in particular, you know that a lot of schools don't
Speaker 1: they play soccer or AFL, They don't play rugby league
Speaker 1: or rugby union. The private schools still do at Midley,
Speaker 1: but how do we turn that around a fil in
Speaker 1: some of the private schools.
Speaker 2: Now, that's what for me thirty.
Speaker 1: Is But is it because parent? Is it because I'd
Speaker 1: like to get your view on this. Is it because
Speaker 1: parents are starting to think both games rugby league and
Speaker 1: rebunion are too violent or too much contact? And therefore
Speaker 1: does that actually mean is correct that we should stop
Speaker 1: the tackling no matter what that's such that it might
Speaker 1: cause a head injury.
Speaker 3: Time will tell in terms of what the impact of
Speaker 3: head injury is going to be. No one actually knows
Speaker 3: for certain. There's definitely elements of you know that contact
Speaker 3: to the head's going to have an adverse effect on
Speaker 3: your body, like many other things. But how that impacts
Speaker 3: individuals and how that all works within the ecosystem of
Speaker 3: someone's actual life, you know. I think time will tell
Speaker 3: on that, and hopefully we can get a clearer understanding
Speaker 3: and that might be the actual thing that you know,
Speaker 3: tips it in the.
Speaker 2: Right or the wrong way.
Speaker 3: But until that point, it's everyone's own decision, everyone's body,
Speaker 3: and everyone's way of going about their lives. There's plenty
Speaker 3: of risk out there, and risk usually leads to fun
Speaker 3: being hard, you know, to a certain extent. If you
Speaker 3: don't take any risk, you're sitting in your house in
Speaker 3: a bubble.
Speaker 1: But parents made the decision when the kids are young.
Speaker 1: So your parents made a decision about you. You're going
Speaker 1: to play footy because that's what your dad did and
Speaker 1: you're part of the manly scene. Blah blah blah. But
Speaker 1: you're if let's say your mom said we should he
Speaker 1: said to your dad in relation to Michael, are you listen,
Speaker 1: I don't want him to grab you know, brain damage.
Speaker 1: He's going to play AFL, He's going to play soccer.
Speaker 3: Well, AFL is not a click I understand that soccer,
Speaker 3: they can't head her anymore.
Speaker 2: So, but they.
Speaker 1: AFL promoted as being less contact. But by the way,
Speaker 1: this is just as many concussions in AFL. This is
Speaker 1: a Ruby League and Roby Union. But let's just let's
Speaker 1: just hypothetical. Mum says. Mum says, we're going to he's
Speaker 1: going to play soccer. School's got soccer. You would never
Speaker 1: have got to it. You got to a rugby union obviously,
Speaker 1: because you start off for soccer and you become part
Speaker 1: of a soccer thing. You might play for Australian in the.
Speaker 2: Fat so it's probably fair.
Speaker 1: They might not definitely not so so. And then therefore
Speaker 1: Raby Union would have missed out on Mike Loper, which
Speaker 1: means they missed out on a player, a good player,
Speaker 1: you know, an Australian player, which means they've got less
Speaker 1: resources to excel. What So therefore I think both for
Speaker 1: Robulara and for Roby Union to less. We said AFL
Speaker 1: that all this discussion about concussion, and by the way,
Speaker 1: it's very important, don't get me wrong. It could be
Speaker 1: an ex extential threat to the game relative to Australia,
Speaker 1: how we play, how we recruit and how we play
Speaker 1: the game compared to say, say Argentina, or say compared
Speaker 1: to Ireland, if it's not as big an issue. And
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's as big as an issue
Speaker 1: in those joints those countries. What we see here and
Speaker 1: the more the media gets onto it, the media is
Speaker 1: making a big thing of it at the moment, like
Speaker 1: it's become the latest and greatest discussion. And I, you know,
Speaker 1: and I see some neurologists now starting to talk about
Speaker 1: it about you know, CTE and all these sorts of things.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, you've got to the game's
Speaker 1: got is an aggressive game, it's a contact game. You
Speaker 1: gotta have that because the audience love that. It's an arena.
Speaker 1: It is like this, It is putting gladiators in a room.
Speaker 1: For me watching rugby union, I love rugby union. When
Speaker 1: like that's tough, forwards are really just bashing each other.
Speaker 1: It's because you know, it's vicarious. It's not me doing it,
Speaker 1: it's watching them do it. I get pleasure out of that.
Speaker 1: Sounds ridiculous. I don't know what it is, but I do.
Speaker 1: How do you balance this stuff up? What are you
Speaker 1: going to? What do you say? What would you be
Speaker 1: saying because you're you're you're just fresh out of the game.
Speaker 2: I think the I can see you've got a few injuries.
Speaker 1: I'm looking at your left you're right here here, that's
Speaker 1: like it's definitely Caulifler. The right one is about the
Speaker 1: same left front. You've got a few scars of the
Speaker 1: top of your head. You got a nice cross on
Speaker 1: the top of your head, like it looks like like
Speaker 1: someone's gone away their swashbuckling pioneer.
Speaker 2: Or the eyebrows of copped it mate, they're going to
Speaker 2: be rolled over soon. The eyebrows.
Speaker 1: You get a few scars going down. Yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 1: suppose you know you've been in the midst of it.
Speaker 1: What do you think about the ex extential threat to
Speaker 1: the game that you love.
Speaker 3: The game that I love. Yeah, it's it's a real challenge.
Speaker 3: I think that the steps that are being taken are
Speaker 3: really important. The management of head knocks has been even
Speaker 3: in my short time, you know, in the last fifteen years,
Speaker 3: has changed remarkably, And that's that's fantastic. The idea that
Speaker 3: if someone gets ahead knock, that it's not frowned upon,
Speaker 3: that they go hey, like I'm not right and to
Speaker 3: really be supported through that process to get them back
Speaker 3: on the field that they're not having repetitive injuries or
Speaker 3: brain injuries. I think that's that's really important. I think
Speaker 3: there's got to be objective measures done on the impacts
Speaker 3: and ongoing. How you do that is going to be
Speaker 3: the challenge because you can't get any of the results
Speaker 3: until someone's post mortem a lot of the time, Right's
Speaker 3: g for sure, Yeah, yeah, for that sort of thing.
Speaker 3: So you know, until that point, you know, how can
Speaker 3: you how can you manage you know, they've brought out
Speaker 3: mouthguards that test can cut or impacts.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the guys that they're they're they're they measure every impact, yes,
Speaker 1: and in a sense got a little censor and sends
Speaker 1: it back to a control center.
Speaker 3: Which again is not perfect yet because what might affect
Speaker 3: you may not affect me, or what affects me might
Speaker 3: not affect you. So how does the threshold become safe?
Speaker 1: But they can build up baselines for you, okay, and
Speaker 1: they can say, okay, Michael got knocked out and he
Speaker 1: was sick for three weeks vomiting with about migrain headaches
Speaker 1: as a result of this level of impact. Mark got
Speaker 1: hit the same level of impact. But they didn't have
Speaker 1: the same effect on Mark. Therefore, for Michael, we've gore
Speaker 1: have watched when he trains. Next time he gets hit
Speaker 1: like that, we've got to pull him aside and say, Okay,
Speaker 1: you're not playing this weekend.
Speaker 2: So really lean on data there.
Speaker 1: It's data driven you and you've got to build up that.
Speaker 1: It's not universal databas data a relation to yourself in
Speaker 1: the individuals, and I think that's great. I'm all for it.
Speaker 1: By the way, I'm not against it. I'm all for
Speaker 1: modernizing the game.
Speaker 2: I'm trying.
Speaker 1: I don't want to kill the game, but modernize the
Speaker 1: game around the contact. Because this game, your game, the
Speaker 1: Ruguy League game, is about contact. It's not about guys
Speaker 1: making breaks. It's we love the contact. We want to
Speaker 1: see a clean contact. Yeah, you want to see clean contact.
Speaker 1: Otherwise you go watch UFC, which again is like a
Speaker 1: product to go see it for a certain reason. But
Speaker 1: you want to see someone gets you know, smashed in
Speaker 1: union or.
Speaker 3: League cleanly dominators. Yes, that's like and that's great, that's
Speaker 3: the feeling you want.
Speaker 2: Like the one.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we've talked about it a bit, but that hits
Speaker 3: not the one We want to see the one in Origin,
Speaker 3: So you want to see a clean one because then
Speaker 3: everyone's back up, they're bouncing their feet. You've got fourteen
Speaker 3: or thirteen or fifteen players still on the field and
Speaker 3: the contest goes on and then that just then it
Speaker 3: becomes the back and forth like we saw in the
Speaker 3: third Origin. So yeah, it's of course it's going to
Speaker 3: be a threat, and it should be a threat, and
Speaker 3: hopefully like threat to anything. And you can tell me
Speaker 3: because you know of your time through business and everything
Speaker 3: that you've done, but challengers. Hopefully then you sharpen the
Speaker 3: knife for sharpened the sword, and it becomes a better product,
Speaker 3: to cleaner product, are safer, but without you losing its core.
Speaker 3: And then talking about well, what's the perception or what's
Speaker 3: the sentiment around this, Well, don't shy away from the
Speaker 3: fact that these are contact sports. There are a contact sport.
Speaker 3: That's why guys and girls like playing it. That's the
Speaker 3: element of it. And within there there's some risk and
Speaker 3: we're working our best to make that safe. But there
Speaker 3: is risk, and you know, like you jump in a car,
Speaker 3: you're playing on the field knowingly of some of that.
Speaker 1: Risk because it's interesting and I've been reflecting on this
Speaker 1: for a while now, and I think rugby league has
Speaker 1: actually has actually I don't know if they did it
Speaker 1: on purpose, but it has adapted to this process of
Speaker 1: what public opinion is and rugby league has become, which
Speaker 1: is why we're getting a lot more Islander players playing
Speaker 1: the game or fit into the game a lot better.
Speaker 1: So if you get back twenty five thirty years ago
Speaker 1: or even back further, it was just big tough guys,
Speaker 1: you know, sloing it out against each other. There was
Speaker 1: nowhere near the athleticism that we have today. But a
Speaker 1: lot of the Islander boys they're big, tall fellows. They're strong,
Speaker 1: they're very athletic, they can sort of run fast, they
Speaker 1: can size step, they can pass a ball, they got
Speaker 1: great eye hand coordination, and the game is sort of
Speaker 1: adapted to suit them because it's gone away from that
Speaker 1: heavy duty clash, which is sort of so now I
Speaker 1: think the spectator is more interested and somehow, I don't
Speaker 1: know who's done it, but somehow we've been sort of
Speaker 1: pushed around to be more interested in the athleticism of
Speaker 1: the game and what this particularly great athlete can do
Speaker 1: once he or she gets outside a player or can
Speaker 1: put a ball on the inside like beautiful soft hands
Speaker 1: into another play going three gap. You know, that's a
Speaker 1: de Esco type player, those sorts of guys. Do you
Speaker 1: think is rugby union starting to move into that? Watching
Speaker 1: the beautiful player as opposed to a beautiful game, you know,
Speaker 1: the beautiful player like you know, like it is the
Speaker 1: Joseph hu Ali. Is that like wonderful athletes who can
Speaker 1: just turn on a sixpence as opposed to the tough
Speaker 1: basses like you and those guys who are jamming up
Speaker 1: the front all the time and just getting belted left
Speaker 1: ryan center. Is that the future rugby union as a
Speaker 1: spectator sport.
Speaker 3: Well, I don't think so, I think and I hope not.
Speaker 3: And the reason I hope not is that rugby fits
Speaker 3: in the short, fat stubby guy and Israel Philao into
Speaker 3: the game and as And that's the really difficult thing
Speaker 3: with you know, the argument of the entertainment side of things.
Speaker 2: And you know.
Speaker 3: What the game of rugby is, because yes, scrums. You know,
Speaker 3: I've sat on the side of a lot of scrums.
Speaker 3: And it's boring to be on the field when you've
Speaker 3: got a lot of repacks and there's ten minutes which
Speaker 3: is an eighth of the game that's spent on repacking
Speaker 3: a scrum.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not a great product.
Speaker 3: Or there's line outs and they're confusing around what the
Speaker 3: what the penalty's blown for because it's a lot of
Speaker 3: the time left to interpretation. But within that you're fitting
Speaker 3: different athletes who are really critical. So you can have
Speaker 3: Israel flour Sua Lee, you know, Whend will come back
Speaker 3: and Lottie come back, all fit them in the same
Speaker 3: back line. But if they're scrum sucks, they're going to
Speaker 3: have a really tough day of the office. I don't
Speaker 3: care who you are.
Speaker 1: If you sitting out there doing nothing, and.
Speaker 3: That, you know, lends itself to the next thing, and
Speaker 3: that's you know what we took what are probably a
Speaker 3: thread of you know, all the codes in Australia are
Speaker 3: but you know when rugby union isn't doing well is
Speaker 3: it's not fast enough, it's not enough enough ball in playtime.
Speaker 3: So you know, test rugby thirty to forty minutes. Forty
Speaker 3: minutes would be a lot of ball in play rugby time,
Speaker 3: whereas league averages over fifty minutes I believe, or something
Speaker 3: around that number. So in terms of actually action happening
Speaker 3: on the field, there's a but I remember playing in
Speaker 3: a game. It was a Test series against I think
Speaker 3: it was the French back in twenty fourteen. We beat
Speaker 3: them well in the first Test. In the second test
Speaker 3: I think we might have won nine to six and
Speaker 3: not a try score in the game. So three penalties
Speaker 3: for us, two for them. We win, and the papers
Speaker 3: the next morning, ago media, the media are going, this
Speaker 3: is what a shocking game, what a boring and outing
Speaker 3: for both teams, for spectator, for a spectator, everything like that,
Speaker 3: And yeah, okay, I can sympathize.
Speaker 2: In the UK it was what an arm wrestle, you know,
Speaker 2: what an absolute.
Speaker 3: Physical Australian media comparatively to the UK. The UK I
Speaker 3: remember because someone sent me going, you know, and I
Speaker 3: saw the article. Oh geez, that can be And I'm
Speaker 3: not having a crack at Australian media. But what we've
Speaker 3: got here is three codes playing consecutively across the course
Speaker 3: of the weekend. And if you have a game like that,
Speaker 3: and then you see a rugby league or an AFL
Speaker 3: game with over one hundred points and league, you know
Speaker 3: a lot of tries scored that oh, there wasn't even
Speaker 3: a try scored in this game and it can be
Speaker 3: an easy right, can't it that?
Speaker 2: You know this game's boring? Could?
Speaker 1: Could that be an explanation therefore? Why you know, England,
Speaker 1: Ireland in Wales become much better relative to Australia because
Speaker 1: the style of the game and the dynamics of the
Speaker 1: game are much more acceptable over there than they are
Speaker 1: here because you know, like you say, like you can
Speaker 1: watch a fast moving rugby league game here, you can
Speaker 1: watch an AFL game back and forth, like just literally
Speaker 1: up and down the field all day. You know, they
Speaker 1: run all round twenty everyone runs twenty odd commetters a game,
Speaker 1: so there's lots of movement. Do you think that might
Speaker 1: be a reason why when not as popular in rugby
Speaker 1: union terms for audiences and for recruitment as say the UK, France,
Speaker 1: Ireland particularly Ireland.
Speaker 2: Is well, I mean there's less codes over there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Less to choose from, You're
Speaker 1: less to choose from. Therefore that as a result being
Speaker 1: less to choose from, you much more patient as an
Speaker 1: audience and media. You're much more patient in terms of
Speaker 1: what I've what you're prepared to allowed to happen in
Speaker 1: the game because you're not saying and we can go
Speaker 1: down the road and watch a game of AFL because
Speaker 1: it's really quick and I can watch it, you know,
Speaker 1: because all of us have got ADHD all audiences these days,
Speaker 1: because we've got so many things going on. We've got Instagram,
Speaker 1: the bother, this going on, WhatsApp, going on a conversation
Speaker 1: with her, the game, We're sending a message to their friends,
Speaker 1: you know, they were all sort of on it the
Speaker 1: whole time. So do you think that Australia is suffering
Speaker 1: because you have too many choices in relatives Australian rugby?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean I think that. You know, Steve
Speaker 3: I think went pretty hard when he was here. Steve
Speaker 3: Hoyle was yeah, and look, I think there's been a
Speaker 3: range of reasons why we haven't made There's been a
Speaker 3: couple of things that have happened. We were very successful
Speaker 3: late nineties or early nineties, late nineties, early two thousands,
Speaker 3: and since then a lot of teams have caught up,
Speaker 3: caught up to Australia, New Zealand, England really through that time.
Speaker 3: So it's now teams one to ten World Rugby are
Speaker 3: really solid. So we've gone through this sort of patch
Speaker 3: of winning fifty to fifty percent, you know in international
Speaker 3: and I think, you know Steve talking about the super
Speaker 3: rugby teams, I think that balance of the amount of
Speaker 3: rugby teams, so you get more players playing together, you're
Speaker 3: the competition up, you know, Like I think, I reflect
Speaker 3: on my own career, the times that I was playing
Speaker 3: my best rugby was when I was in risk or
Speaker 3: jeopardy of losing my position. Really yeah, like you know,
Speaker 3: that's what you need within I mean, you could say
Speaker 3: that in any any sports. So did we get too
Speaker 3: thin across that period, I don't know, but I think,
Speaker 3: you know, if you're having a forward looking looking focuses,
Speaker 3: which is what we need to do in rugby in
Speaker 3: the country. But unfortunately the Melbourne Rebels are now no longer.
Speaker 3: But you've said all that team's been dispersed now to
Speaker 3: all the other teams, so now you've got a closer
Speaker 3: I guess you've got more competition for less spots, which
Speaker 3: in my opinion can only create, you know, a good outcome.
Speaker 3: So I think we'll see next year some of the
Speaker 3: super rugby teams doing really, really well because you've just
Speaker 3: the push. It's not it's a compounding effect, like you know,
Speaker 3: it's not a one plus one or it's you and
Speaker 3: me going for the same position. It's okay, we're going
Speaker 3: for the same position. It's not get a little bit better.
Speaker 3: We'll both get a lot better. And I think that's
Speaker 3: what we're going to see happen.
Speaker 1: So if that's interesting. You say about the Melbourne So
Speaker 1: you're saying less teams is actually better.
Speaker 3: Well, I'm saying the right amount of teams is okay, right,
Speaker 3: An I'm not saying less is better, yes, because then
Speaker 3: you'd say one team is good, But I don't think
Speaker 3: that's the that's what we'd want.
Speaker 1: So no, And is it? And do you think it's
Speaker 1: important that we play we have in super Rugby, we
Speaker 1: have teams coming out of rugby cities or rugby states,
Speaker 1: as opposed to trying to jam something into Melbourne, which
Speaker 1: is not really a rugby and in place.
Speaker 3: I'm actually interested in your opinion on this because we
Speaker 3: are a country flooded with different options, you know, So
Speaker 3: in terms of a business thing, do you stick to
Speaker 3: where you're strong? Do you try and spread Australia thinks
Speaker 3: you you know, Australian rugby or we've tried so long
Speaker 3: to capture the West and it's bloody hard to.
Speaker 2: Capture the West, you know.
Speaker 3: I mean AFL has done well to get get in
Speaker 3: there with GWS, but you know, certainly rugby league strain
Speaker 3: you know, as a good stranglehold on that area. So
Speaker 3: you know, you potentially you go out broad or you
Speaker 3: go outside and do you lose where you're strong. And
Speaker 3: I'm not saying we've done that or that's what's happening
Speaker 3: or should happen. But there's almost a question to TV
Speaker 3: TV does drive it.
Speaker 1: It's like so like so audiences in Melbourne are important
Speaker 1: to broadcasters because broadcasts are just sting to broadcasters in
Speaker 1: Now I'm broadcasting something on at prime time, I need
Speaker 1: to be able to collect the Melbourne audience. Like rugby league,
Speaker 1: for example, is a good example. You know they want
Speaker 1: to have you watch rugby league. If you look at
Speaker 1: the way the draw goes for Friday night games, you
Speaker 1: get a lot of Brisbane games because Brisbani play a
Speaker 1: lot of nights on Friday nights. Because Queensland has love
Speaker 1: rugby league and they really good patrons of the game
Speaker 1: on television so that drives a lot more eyeballs onto
Speaker 1: the TV show on Friday nights, which means a lot
Speaker 1: more advertising, so the broadcaster does much better. So I
Speaker 1: can understand the dough comes from the broadcaster for all
Speaker 1: the most of these games regular AFL reby union, of course,
Speaker 1: so you've got to sort of try and win over
Speaker 1: the broadcast in terms of the money they're going to
Speaker 1: give you broadcast rights, so you've got sort of they
Speaker 1: sort of nearly insist on having a Victorian team so
Speaker 1: that you can get people in Victoria watching the game.
Speaker 1: I sort of understand that part, but equally I agree
Speaker 1: with what you're saying too, though, well, I think you're
Speaker 1: saying with more a question to me. I think, but
Speaker 1: should we just concentrate on the territory we are in
Speaker 1: already and be really good at that own it, because
Speaker 1: the moment you start looking at another territory like Victoria,
Speaker 1: you're going to lose some of your attention to where
Speaker 1: you've already been good at. And the moment you do that,
Speaker 1: someone's going to come and try and cut your lunch
Speaker 1: and try and get it underneath you, which what the
Speaker 1: AFL has been doing. They're just I don't know, they've
Speaker 1: got a bigger check book. They've just been better than
Speaker 1: everyone at it. And they're everywhere. They're in the schools
Speaker 1: or in New South Wales, aro out the west of Sydney.
Speaker 1: Now they're very good at building the narrative that is
Speaker 1: less dangerous. There's less contact, but there's just so many
Speaker 1: head injuries.
Speaker 3: Well you're actually getting tackled from three to sixty. Yeah,
Speaker 3: So the good thing with the rugby league and union
Speaker 3: is it's up and down. I know you're bracing your
Speaker 3: next you're getting prepared. Unless you're getting a which we've
Speaker 3: all had a good shot from the side, someone just
Speaker 3: makes a great read and you don't see it coming.
Speaker 3: They're the horrible ones, but that would happen a lot
Speaker 3: in AFL. You get tackled from behind or you're going
Speaker 3: you're playing low, you get you see a lot of
Speaker 3: the ones that get their head on hips when they're
Speaker 3: challenging for the ball on the ground. So again you're
Speaker 3: still crossing a white line with contact sport. There's a
Speaker 3: risk there. But yeah, to your point, I'd love to
Speaker 3: know what the ants would be for all the codes,
Speaker 3: and I often wonder with the rugby league rugby union thing.
Speaker 3: I mean, I think there's totally a place where they
Speaker 3: can feed off each other. You know, you can a
Speaker 3: market is a market Mark going to come back to
Speaker 3: rugby union and is a swillly you're going to go
Speaker 3: back to league and you know, can there ever be
Speaker 3: a game where there's a cross code game or run
Speaker 3: off the back of each other? You know, I think
Speaker 3: there's totally an environment where, you know, more eyeballs can
Speaker 3: be put on if you utilize both of them in
Speaker 3: the right way that suits. I mean, right now, the
Speaker 3: currently it's it's it's a it's a boxing it's a
Speaker 3: twelve round boxing match where it's you know, rugby league
Speaker 3: versus rugby union. But I think it's one of those
Speaker 3: ones where co you know, they can coexist and bounce
Speaker 3: off each other.
Speaker 1: Basically they feels in enemy your what you're saying, I
Speaker 1: didn't say that, Yes, yes you did. So you're involved
Speaker 1: with recovery. What's what you're an ambassad from what you
Speaker 1: deal with you.
Speaker 3: As initially investor and then as I'm starting to work
Speaker 3: out what the next chapter is, Yeah, I'm doing some
Speaker 3: workers their health, eye performance and well want to sci
Speaker 3: plane recovery Recovery is two things.
Speaker 2: First sip. First of all, it's a couple of things.
Speaker 1: Now, first with someone's go cv I, r cv I recovery.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so it was recovery. We rebranded for a couple
Speaker 3: of reasons due to Payton's in the US. But yeah,
Speaker 3: it's a retail for high performance and wellness. So sauna,
Speaker 3: ice bath, you know, compression float tanks, hyperbaric chamber, some
Speaker 3: reoxing machines which help with VO two. So right, a
Speaker 3: range of services there that you know has started in
Speaker 3: Couldie with Stephen Hoyles in twenty nineteen, has since gone
Speaker 3: to Cronulla, Manly and soon to be in the CBD
Speaker 3: just off Martin Place there and the US and Toronto.
Speaker 1: So I think, isn't it La?
Speaker 2: Is it a c on La Homosa Beach? So opening
Speaker 2: host of beach next year?
Speaker 1: Right? Next year?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: And who's behind it now? I mean who's behind Recovery
Speaker 1: the business itself?
Speaker 3: So the three founders Steve Hoyles, Nick Bardetta and Trevor Fowss.
Speaker 1: And trev Elson being the Trevvelson from Investable Yes, so
Speaker 1: he's got a fund, yes, and he's a man Randy
Speaker 1: supporter isn't he? Is he a Rondy supporter.
Speaker 3: He's originally through the through the Queensland, but yeah, he's
Speaker 3: been here for for He's part of the Randwick mafia.
Speaker 1: Now yeah, mafia corect and And I notice that there's
Speaker 1: a strong franchise in the one in Kuji. Is that
Speaker 1: part of it is the idea to get a plarties
Speaker 1: which is the strong franchise plarties type business as part
Speaker 1: of the recovery systems in other words, and you can
Speaker 1: go and do a plarties class and then walk straight
Speaker 1: into the recovery. Is that part of what's going on there?
Speaker 1: Is that the thinking?
Speaker 3: So two different models, so strong franchise based yep, but
Speaker 3: that was forty five that Stephen managed and managed for
Speaker 3: years and have now changed too strong right, So but
Speaker 3: that's not the intention with every site, you know. I
Speaker 3: think the other the other side of things that that
Speaker 3: recovery is doing is a powered by recovery. So we've
Speaker 3: got a mobile unit that will go around until events.
Speaker 3: Yeah cold bath, yeah, cold bath sauna, so that hopefully
Speaker 3: going over to the mobile mobile units.
Speaker 1: So wow, they've gone a bag of a trailer so yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that'll be that'll be interesting.
Speaker 3: And then a lot of buildings with their end of
Speaker 3: trip facilities wanting wanting to give their employees wellness so
Speaker 3: we can come in and consult and do some bespoke
Speaker 3: for business. And we've actually put one in Strong Polarates
Speaker 3: up up in Queensland as well, so that's great. We've
Speaker 3: just launched a hydration product as well, so.
Speaker 1: Bits of drink obviously, yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, sash at the moment and soon to be ready to.
Speaker 1: Drink as in as in sodium, potassium and magnesium. Is
Speaker 1: that we're talking about? Yeah, any sugar.
Speaker 2: No sugar, mate, good man.
Speaker 1: I'm glad about that because that's important, just having those
Speaker 1: three salts too, because hydration is such a big deal,
Speaker 1: especially if I'm going to sit money in for its horns. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm going to walk out de hydrated. So I've tried
Speaker 1: the one that's Goujie Weills invited me and my sign up.
Speaker 1: Then we went up there and I'm not never sure
Speaker 1: whether I should go infrared water second, or so go
Speaker 1: the cold plunge and go to the infrared. What's your
Speaker 1: go to?
Speaker 2: Well, I mean the traditional, So we try and do
Speaker 2: the traditional or is it infrared.
Speaker 1: So you get warm up first.
Speaker 3: So I mean, well, it depends what you want to
Speaker 3: get out of it, right, So I think the morning,
Speaker 3: like a lot of people like to finish on cold.
Speaker 3: So do your hot and then finish on cold. But
Speaker 3: what we see is, you know, within the half an
Speaker 3: hour or hour slots is people go hot to cold,
Speaker 3: hot to cold or or you know, a lot of
Speaker 3: I think, you know, my mum and my wife included,
Speaker 3: like to finish on hot because they want to come
Speaker 3: out of their freezing.
Speaker 1: See that's funny, guys. I went we went hot cold, No,
Speaker 1: it's we went cold, hot and cold.
Speaker 2: And the pain first straight into the cold because to.
Speaker 1: Get into that. So we got in and but I
Speaker 1: actually felt a bit cold for the for a couple
Speaker 1: more hours. It took me because I like, it took
Speaker 1: me a bit of time my blood to get back
Speaker 1: into my system. But I felt amazing, like I felt
Speaker 1: like I just leapt for ten hours. My body felt
Speaker 1: really good, like really good. Yeah, and I was only
Speaker 1: in the water for maybe I don't know, three or
Speaker 1: four minutes.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And my hand I couldn't put my hands in
Speaker 1: because I've got bad I thros and my thumbs and
Speaker 1: I could really feel it when I put my hands,
Speaker 1: so I actually had a bit girly. Not to say,
Speaker 1: girls do this, but I was being a girl. I
Speaker 1: have my hand out of the water and just sort
Speaker 1: of above the water, I should say, but I had
Speaker 1: the rest of my body in it, and I think,
Speaker 1: you know what's amazing for me is that all of
Speaker 1: a sudden, there are certain people in this in this
Speaker 1: world and in particular in our country, and people I'm
Speaker 1: talking to. It becomes so much more aware of the
Speaker 1: importance of these sorts of testing yourself, pushing yourself to
Speaker 1: do something you actually don't really feel like doing, like
Speaker 1: getting in a cold punch. I think it was three
Speaker 1: or four degrees would it be about right? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: three or four degrees water. I mean, just the thought
Speaker 1: of it and how it's good for your mentality. I
Speaker 1: actually felt, I know, I'm not dear to I'm not
Speaker 1: your you know town cryer for I don't get paid again.
Speaker 1: I'm not getting paid anything by recovery this, but this
Speaker 1: is the reality of whether it was recovery, is cold
Speaker 1: plunge or anyone else cold punch? Well, so much I
Speaker 1: bought myself on so I bought a cold punch. So
Speaker 1: the feeling that I get from it was amazing, like
Speaker 1: my mental feeling. Physically, I felt pretty good. I don't
Speaker 1: know if it really took away my arthritis or inflammation.
Speaker 1: It did for a short period of time for sure,
Speaker 1: but I got a mental clarity out of it that
Speaker 1: the cold mostly I felt amazing. The infraredsuner, I think
Speaker 1: for me is better for physically. It's really good for
Speaker 1: me physically. It makes me feel quite better the next
Speaker 1: day that I sleep better that night and I feel
Speaker 1: better the next day. But the cold has got to
Speaker 1: give me a mental clarity. What do you get from it?
Speaker 2: Yeah? No, that So, I mean I hated it for
Speaker 2: the majority of my career.
Speaker 3: Towards the back end, I go, okay, well, not that
Speaker 3: I finish old or anything like that in terms of
Speaker 3: a rugby player, but I needed to start if I
Speaker 3: wanted to train how I wanted to play, and I
Speaker 3: wanted to just be consistent on the field, and I
Speaker 3: felt like I needed to start upping that.
Speaker 2: And so I mean there was certainly, you know, it's
Speaker 2: good for the inflammation.
Speaker 3: It gives you that, you know, a bit of a
Speaker 3: physiology boost, like when you get out there and doorphins
Speaker 3: seem to kick.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I think that what you're saying. You know,
Speaker 2: you're like, oh, yeah, like in a weird way.
Speaker 1: It's weird.
Speaker 2: I did that. I did that. Yeah, got it feel good?
Speaker 2: You feel parted.
Speaker 3: So I mean, ideally like if you can have an
Speaker 3: if particularly you've got your own but cold in the
Speaker 3: morning because your body's heating up. So your body's cool overnight,
Speaker 3: let you sleep and your body starts heating up as
Speaker 3: the day goes on. So you want to you want
Speaker 3: to sort of get in the cold in the morning
Speaker 3: and allow it to heat up. And I mean, don't
Speaker 3: just jump in the cold and then you know, sit
Speaker 3: down for ages, do some movement after go for a walk,
Speaker 3: get the body moving, the muscles moving, and should just
Speaker 3: feel like for a couple of hours.
Speaker 2: And that's proven. You know.
Speaker 3: I think one of the things with COVID is people
Speaker 3: you know, really started to look at the longevity side
Speaker 3: of things and what can they do aside from you know,
Speaker 3: once they get back out.
Speaker 2: There to make them feel better and you stay healthy.
Speaker 3: And then sauna at night's great, so it will heat
Speaker 3: you up, but your body's going through this pattern of
Speaker 3: where you're starting to cool down and get ready for sleep,
Speaker 3: So it almost spikes that that feeling and that sensation,
Speaker 3: and you know, when you sweat again, releases in doorphins,
Speaker 3: gets your toxins out, everything like that. So yeah, that's
Speaker 3: sort of you can definitely do them complimentary because it
Speaker 3: gives you that shock and that change. But yeah, if
Speaker 3: you had to choose one at either side of the day,
Speaker 3: you'd go with that.
Speaker 1: And did you ever think would you ever thought yourself
Speaker 1: if you go back to when you're twenty twelve, thirteen
Speaker 1: years ago, nineteen twenty, that you would be having this
Speaker 1: conversation talking about cold plunge, not because you would have
Speaker 1: done nice bas for training or after games and stuff
Speaker 1: like that, but his career that you be talking about
Speaker 1: inference horners and dumb ice baths or cold plunge for
Speaker 1: mental mental recovery, physical recovery. No outside of footy.
Speaker 3: No, and go for a surf, We'll go hang out
Speaker 3: with my mates. Not so yeah, I have yeah a
Speaker 3: few too many beersh Yeah. No, I've got a sawn
Speaker 3: in my backyard.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I mean, not only is a good place
Speaker 3: to feel good and everything, but we got two young kids.
Speaker 3: So me and my wife jump in there at the
Speaker 3: end of the day and just have a debrief on
Speaker 3: the on the ship that they give us, you know,
Speaker 3: after they finally get put down at night.
Speaker 2: So no, there's there's some great benefits to it.
Speaker 1: And and just finally, I mean, because you're in the
Speaker 1: you're in this game. Now, how often to get their
Speaker 1: proper health benefits out of a sauna? How let's call
Speaker 1: it an inference one for the moment. How many times
Speaker 1: a week do you need to do it?
Speaker 2: Now?
Speaker 1: For how long? What? What is a sort of recommended period?
Speaker 2: Well, there's a I mean, there's a couple of different
Speaker 2: ways to look at it.
Speaker 3: So there's you know, your humans of the world give
Speaker 3: out great information on that, and they're the they're the standard,
Speaker 3: and he does a lot around you know that sort
Speaker 3: of stuff. So there's there's different ways to do it.
Speaker 3: So to do it you know less, but you do
Speaker 3: a bigger hit.
Speaker 1: So is it for thirty minutes or forty minutes?
Speaker 3: Well yeah, yeah, but you could almost you can do
Speaker 3: like a twenty minute, have a little rinse, go back in,
Speaker 3: do another twenty minutes, have a rinse, and you know,
Speaker 3: finish off or you know shorter whatever time works or do.
Speaker 3: You can do fifteen minutes a day daily, but your
Speaker 3: body does pick up a little bit of a resilience,
Speaker 3: but it gets used to tis yeah, a little bit,
Speaker 3: yeah tolerance perfect. Yeah, So I think in terms of
Speaker 3: an ice bath, and this is again a human and
Speaker 3: I'm probably going to get this wrong, and you know
Speaker 3: people can say that, but it's like a total of
Speaker 3: twelve minutes a week and that'll give you that that's
Speaker 3: your minimum effective dose of cold bath. So if you're
Speaker 3: doing cold and the cold things interesting, like it seems
Speaker 3: that with the recovery facilities, guys like to get it
Speaker 3: really cold because it's the it's the test. But it
Speaker 3: doesn't it needs to be cold enough that you get
Speaker 3: a shock when you jump into it. You get that
Speaker 3: it does need to be three It doesn't need to
Speaker 3: be three good degrees. But what we've seen and what
Speaker 3: you know, being in a footy team, when you get
Speaker 3: it really cold, guys like you know, yeah, yeah, so
Speaker 3: yeah it's three degrees. You can go and tell everyone
Speaker 3: it's three degrees. You know, there's that part of it,
Speaker 3: but no, it's just getting that that sort of tour
Speaker 3: and you can get that cold shower and you know,
Speaker 3: all going in the ocean at certain times the year,
Speaker 3: they'll give you that effect. But yeah, twelve minutes across
Speaker 3: the course of a week should should do you.
Speaker 1: And finally, just on Hope Barrick, just what does hyperbaric chamber?
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's explain what we're talking about dye.
Speaker 2: So you put yourself into a high, high oxygen needed environment.
Speaker 1: So you just explain what it looks like.
Speaker 3: I mean, well, the ones that we have in our facilities,
Speaker 3: and they can look different, but we have I mean, mate,
Speaker 3: it's like sitting in it's sitting in this chair effectively
Speaker 3: that you can recline in, but it's a little dome
Speaker 3: around you, and you climb a little desk. Yeah and closed,
Speaker 3: so you know, you shut this thing. You put a
Speaker 3: sort of a bar over the top, and your press
Speaker 3: start and it just starts filling with oxygen. It's kind
Speaker 3: of like feels like you're going up in a plane,
Speaker 3: so ears or pop. It feels it to yeah, like
Speaker 3: a fully oxygenated environment and the purpose and the pressure
Speaker 3: goes up like it would in a plane. The point
Speaker 3: of it is to oxygenate your blood more than you
Speaker 3: would in you know, normal day to day and that
Speaker 3: just improves getting that part or red blood cells to
Speaker 3: different parts of the body more which carry the oxygen,
Speaker 3: which carry the oxygen more. So really good for chronic injury,
Speaker 3: really good for sleep. I used it a fair bit.
Speaker 3: I had some calf and achilles tendon issue, so I
Speaker 3: was in there two to three times a week to
Speaker 3: try and speed up that recovery process.
Speaker 2: Really good for post surgery.
Speaker 3: So yeah, big, big in Japan, and a good study
Speaker 3: in Japan, like yeah, that type of environment. So yeah,
Speaker 3: it's it's it's that's a really really popular product.
Speaker 1: Well I'm not going to buy Harper a better chamber,
Speaker 1: but I've been thinking about it, to be honest. I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't know if the respence, I would have a clue,
Speaker 1: but I haven't be thinking about it because you know,
Speaker 1: when you have to manage. I got a million injuries
Speaker 1: that are accumulated over many years and a body, well used,
Speaker 1: body will used, well lived in. But I'm I want
Speaker 1: to say thank you, legend, and you are a legend.
Speaker 1: Thanks very much for coming into the show today and
Speaker 1: all the best with the recovery and and are you
Speaker 1: going to take over when Oils he goes to America.
Speaker 1: We've announced that he's a Randwick coach.
Speaker 2: By the way, No, he's gone, he's gone, he's gone.
Speaker 2: He's good because I don't want to any trouble. No,
Speaker 2: he's over there.
Speaker 1: But you're going to take over Romwick.
Speaker 2: I'm not taking over Ramwick. No, No, I'll be I'll
Speaker 2: be staying in my lane.
Speaker 3: They're going to go and be spreading the you know,
Speaker 3: doing their rugby thing and spreading the love over there
Speaker 3: in America and opening up the Toronto and La facilities.
Speaker 3: But yeah, very much. It's a great thing about the
Speaker 3: rugby community. Great thing about when you you know, are
Speaker 3: thinking about transitioning and what that sort of is going
Speaker 3: to look like post a career or whether that you know,
Speaker 3: I am in post career moment at the moment. But yeah,
Speaker 3: you get a great network, a great bunch of people
Speaker 3: that are willing to help if you ask, and happy
Speaker 3: to keep you involved.
Speaker 1: So that's true. By the way, the rugby union community
Speaker 1: is very tight.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I think sport community is in general.
Speaker 3: I'm being involved with a few things post career that
Speaker 3: you know, athletes and businessmen and you know, whatever you
Speaker 3: all have transitions in life, and I think if you're
Speaker 3: willing to ask for a bit of help and how
Speaker 3: that looks, and keep an open mind like we talk
Speaker 3: about with you know, your siwall, ease of the world
Speaker 3: on the rugby pitch and it's you know, good things
Speaker 3: can happen.
Speaker 1: Michael Hubert, thanks very much.
Speaker 2: Thanks, I really appreciate this, but thank you