Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives
Speaker 1: detective sy aside of life. The average person has never
Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: On what was otherwise an ordinary day, Jessica Brown was
Speaker 1: driving to a parents' house when she found out her
Speaker 1: brother Eden had been stabbed to death. Grief after murder
Speaker 1: is unlike anything else. There's a lot of pain and
Speaker 1: overwhelm in sadness combined with anger. If you're a regular
Speaker 1: listener of Eye Catch Killers, you remember one of the
Speaker 1: most confronting conversations I had on this show was sitting
Speaker 1: across from Anthony Jones, the man who took Eden's life. Today,
Speaker 1: we hear the other side of the story. In this episode,
Speaker 1: Jessica shares what it means to survive after the murder
Speaker 1: of someone you love and how she turned that pain
Speaker 1: into purpose. Jessica's a driving force behind Sister The Sister
Speaker 1: and Worry a Woman, and also sits on the Serious
Speaker 1: Offenders Review Board. She has a lot to talk about
Speaker 1: regarding the world of crime. Have a listen to what
Speaker 1: she has to say. Jessica Brown, Welcome to I Catch Killers.
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: Well. We've been in a lot of communication in the
Speaker 1: last couple of months, so it's good to finally have
Speaker 1: you in the studio and sit down and talk to you.
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me well.
Speaker 1: I've also got to thank you for the invite to
Speaker 1: the Keeping Women out of Prison breakfast at State Parliament.
Speaker 1: I attended a couple of weeks ago. It was quite
Speaker 1: interesting some of the things that were raised there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's important. That was the tenth anniversary,
Speaker 2: wasn't it. Yes, in Parliament House. What were the points
Speaker 2: that you got from that?
Speaker 1: They raised like a couple of points and I was
Speaker 1: going to raise some of it. Some of the statistics
Speaker 1: were quite concerning remand and sentencing. Sixty percent of women
Speaker 1: in prison and on remand and fifty two percent don't
Speaker 1: receive a custodial sentence. Now, breaking that down, you've got
Speaker 1: sixty percent in prison on remand. So these are people
Speaker 1: that haven't been convicted of a crime at this point
Speaker 1: in time. They've been put in custody, but there's no conviction.
Speaker 1: So sixty percent of women we have in the prison
Speaker 1: system in this state, and of that sixty percent, fifty
Speaker 1: two percent when the matter is finalized at court, they
Speaker 1: don't get a custodi or sentence concerning.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. So I only dealt with the seriousers through
Speaker 2: the SERI Offenders Review Council. So the statistics between the
Speaker 2: males and females are quite alarming. So you've got forty
Speaker 2: six in New South Wales and then you've got eight
Speaker 2: hundred and forty five I think it is of males
Speaker 2: within New South Wales. So that sort of says yes,
Speaker 2: and these are the most serious offenders, and most serious
Speaker 2: offenders are in there for murder over half half of them,
Speaker 2: and men sexual assault as well. But yeah, a lot
Speaker 2: of the women are the murder as well, a lot
Speaker 2: of them.
Speaker 1: I think given the nature of the breakfast at Parliament
Speaker 1: House Keep Women out of Prison, that was we're just
Speaker 1: looking at alternate ways, you know obviously, and I think,
Speaker 1: and we're going to talk about your experience with crime,
Speaker 1: with the murder of your brother Eden, and yeah, that's
Speaker 1: as real as it gets to be caught up in
Speaker 1: the world of crime. But if we can do something
Speaker 1: better and help people turn them around, is the work
Speaker 1: that you do and the work that you've been doing
Speaker 1: for quite some time, I think we're in a better place.
Speaker 1: Another thing that came out or another thing I picked
Speaker 1: up during the whole range of guests speakers that they
Speaker 1: had at the breakfast, was it sixty percent of incarcerated
Speaker 1: women and mothers. Now, it shouldn't give you a free
Speaker 1: pass from jail just because you're a mother. But I
Speaker 1: think the flow on effect from that is that when
Speaker 1: a mother, because generally they're the primary care of children,
Speaker 1: when mothers are taken away from the family structure, you
Speaker 1: can see ongoing, ongoing issues there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, negative ripple effects. A lot of the kids end
Speaker 2: up in foster care if the mother is the primary
Speaker 2: care and also just the knock on effect of having
Speaker 2: someone in incarcerated. You know, it can be quite devastating
Speaker 2: for young women and men. Obviously, I've been working in
Speaker 2: the women in girls space for many years now, but yeah,
Speaker 2: I've seen the devastating effects of know what it's like
Speaker 2: for young women to have parents who are in cars rated.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and the advocacy work is very important because
Speaker 1: I think when we talk crime, and I know I've
Speaker 1: been guilty of it, more so when I'm out of
Speaker 1: the police. But doing the podcast, we talk crime, we
Speaker 1: talk prisons and all that, but we forget about the
Speaker 1: female prisons quite often. You mentioned jail, and your image
Speaker 1: is of a group of men walking around in the
Speaker 1: yard somewhere. We don't often think about women in prison.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, interesting enough. With my sauc work, obviously, I've
Speaker 2: put a pause on that at the moment, but I
Speaker 2: started that in two thousand and four. I only saw
Speaker 2: three women. Out of all of them, they're all men,
Speaker 2: and that was an interesting fact. But the ones that
Speaker 2: were there were interesting too, and they were all mothers.
Speaker 1: Right yep. So just because you mentioned saur and acronyms,
Speaker 1: I always get lost in acronyms, But serious effect.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of acronyms in saulk okay.
Speaker 1: Serious of a review board and that's looking at people
Speaker 1: that are in for serious crimes and what is to
Speaker 1: become of them and whether they should be released in
Speaker 1: different things. Yeah, yeah, one last and we'll just finish
Speaker 1: off on the breakfast. Another stat that came out was
Speaker 1: Aboriginal women make up forty percent of the female prison
Speaker 1: population and there are only three percent of the state's
Speaker 1: female population, which is concerning, isn't it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, And in terms of just going back to
Speaker 2: the Serious Offenders Review Council, is that over fifty percent
Speaker 2: of Aboriginal women. Yeah, there's a really high statistic of
Speaker 2: Aboriginal women who were part of that bracket. Yeah.
Speaker 1: No, you hear that type of stats a lot, and
Speaker 1: it's something that there's something broken, something that needs to
Speaker 1: be fixed. But that was the breakfast at Parliament House.
Speaker 1: Thank you very much for the invite. I enjoyed it
Speaker 1: and met a lot of interesting people there. They're very
Speaker 1: passionate about getting the justice system right, which is always
Speaker 1: you walk away a little bit inspired from that. The
Speaker 1: politicians said all the right thing. Hopefully the politicians deliver
Speaker 1: they're very good at saying the right things. It's a
Speaker 1: matter of them actually coming through with what they promised to.
Speaker 1: Now I want to speak to you about your brother's death.
Speaker 1: And when I say death, he was murdered by Anthony Jones.
Speaker 1: Now Eden Brown and Anthony Jones might if they have
Speaker 1: been listening to the podcast would be for me because
Speaker 1: I've had Anthony Jones on the podcast. He's since been released.
Speaker 1: When he murdered your brother Eden, that was in twenty ten.
Speaker 2: And he was released in June last year.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Now, before I got him on the podcast, and
Speaker 1: this is how we started to get in touch, was
Speaker 1: I didn't feel comfortable getting Anthony on the podcast to
Speaker 1: talk about talk about his life unless I spoke to
Speaker 1: the family Eden's family that me to you, and both
Speaker 1: spoke to you and we talked about it, and I
Speaker 1: thought you were very generous in what you had to
Speaker 1: say and the feelings that you had about Anthony potentially
Speaker 1: turning his life around.
Speaker 2: So yeah, look, we're really grateful that he has turned
Speaker 2: his life around. I guess there's a lot of families
Speaker 2: that don't have that. Whilst we've been very unlucky by
Speaker 2: losing my brother we've been lucky in the sense that
Speaker 2: he has made something of himself and he has a
Speaker 2: plan to give back to the community and to I
Speaker 2: guess turn his life into purpose now rather than just
Speaker 2: being an angry man, which is what he described in
Speaker 2: the podcast that he did. So yeah, really grateful in
Speaker 2: the sense that he you know, a lot of families
Speaker 2: don't get that. A lot of people get out of
Speaker 2: jail with no remorse, and so he certainly does have
Speaker 2: that remorse, which is which is a good thing.
Speaker 1: But I look, I understand that. But I say to you,
Speaker 1: full credit to you for the generosity of spirit that
Speaker 1: you could actually acknowledge that someone who's turning his life
Speaker 1: around someone that's responsible for murdering your brother. We talk,
Speaker 1: and this is not going to be the whole conversation,
Speaker 1: but I think it puts in perspective the type of
Speaker 1: work that you're doing, because I think if anyone's got
Speaker 1: an understanding of the pain of crime, it's yourself first
Speaker 1: of all. Before we talk about it, and tell me
Speaker 1: what you remember of Eden as your brother.
Speaker 2: Ah, goofy, fun loving, very charismatic, life of the party,
Speaker 2: just a really good hearted person. He I know that
Speaker 2: Anthony in his podcast mentioned that he was like a
Speaker 2: big brother type to him, which is what Eden was like.
Speaker 2: He loved everybody and was not judgmental. I mean, Mum
Speaker 2: came home one day and he had a homeless person
Speaker 2: at having a shower and he was cooking and lamb
Speaker 2: chops under the the grills, so he would honestly, I
Speaker 2: could see how he would have gravitated to Aj and
Speaker 2: you know, wanted to help him, knowing that, you know,
Speaker 2: he'd had really crap upbringing, challenging upbringing, and so Eden
Speaker 2: would have been quite empathetic to that and wanted to
Speaker 2: help him. And you know, I could see that he
Speaker 2: was wanting to be, you know, sort of a big
Speaker 2: brother to him.
Speaker 1: A role model.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well it's tragic how it turned out and then
Speaker 1: ended up in a situation that a party where he
Speaker 1: was stabbed to death.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was pretty crap. Yeah, I was. Actually I
Speaker 2: had a really really hard week and I my phone
Speaker 2: was going off at you know, all sorts of hours
Speaker 2: of the morning, and it was silent number, and my
Speaker 2: phone actually went flat, and I'd left my car charger
Speaker 2: in my car, and it was like one or two
Speaker 2: o'clock in the morning. And I thought, well, I'm not
Speaker 2: going to walk to my car at that time, and
Speaker 2: I thought of it. If it was a number that
Speaker 2: I knew that I would to answer it. But as
Speaker 2: it turns out, I was going to mom and Dad's
Speaker 2: house the next day and for lunch, and so I
Speaker 2: didn't actually get I had a big sleep in because
Speaker 2: I was just wrecked. Got in my car and plugged
Speaker 2: my phone in and it just went absolutely balistic. I
Speaker 2: had to pull over because I thought, oh, gosh, my
Speaker 2: phone's malfunctioning. And I'd just seen on the news that
Speaker 2: two people had been stabbed, two separate incidents, since one
Speaker 2: was in the area that my brother lived in, and
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, those poor families. That's exactly what
Speaker 2: I was thinking, of those poor families. Which you do,
Speaker 2: you know, you on the news every morning, he hears
Speaker 2: something that's happened, and yeah, I pulled over, and I
Speaker 2: my heart just sank, and I got a text from
Speaker 2: my sibling who said, yeah, Eden's been killed. He's been stabbed.
Speaker 2: Drive safely, and so I don't really remember much about
Speaker 2: the drive. I probably shouldn't have been driving, to be honest,
Speaker 2: but I kind of just went into full adrenaline mode.
Speaker 2: Apparently I rang my best friend screaming my head off,
Speaker 2: and I don't remember that. So, like I said, I
Speaker 2: probably shouldn't have been driving, but I did get so
Speaker 2: I did get there safely. And yeah, and that's kind
Speaker 2: of where you just, yeah, the ship began.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well and is it's the start of a very
Speaker 1: long journey that continues to this day. But yeah, getting
Speaker 1: that type of that type of call and response, and
Speaker 1: how do you respond to that, you said you shouldn't
Speaker 1: be driving? What do you do? You've got the function?
Speaker 2: And I was very I remember being very careful, just thinking, God,
Speaker 2: what's just trying to process? So, as I said, I
Speaker 2: did get there safely. But then you walk into a
Speaker 2: room of a whole family who's just you know, been
Speaker 2: at the hospital, just absolute science, and you know, the
Speaker 2: one thing that came to my mind was like what
Speaker 2: do we do now? Like what what happens now? Like
Speaker 2: what do we do? And then we're all called into
Speaker 2: the police station the next day and with a whole
Speaker 2: lot of detectives and police and they were very very helpful,
Speaker 2: but we're obviously all in a man shocked, We're like,
Speaker 2: what the hell happened? We didn't even know a j
Speaker 2: We didn't know. You know, there's a lot of what happened.
Speaker 1: Well, it's a world that people don't know and don't experience,
Speaker 1: and thank goodness for that that most people don't experience that,
Speaker 1: but it is something completely foreign. You're not dealing with police,
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden you've prone and very much
Speaker 1: involved in a murder investigation. So the process is trying
Speaker 1: to and now that you've been working in the criminal
Speaker 1: justice space, you get an more of an understanding. But
Speaker 1: that at the time, that's the last thing you thought
Speaker 1: you'd be doing, seeing a police station talking to detectives
Speaker 1: about the murder of your brother.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you kind of it's that saying that you don't
Speaker 2: think it's ever going to happen to you until it does.
Speaker 2: And yeah, it was just there was more questions than answers,
Speaker 2: and obviously the police was still investigating things, so there
Speaker 2: wasn't much that they could really tell us, and there
Speaker 2: was a lot of people who were just not speaking
Speaker 2: and they were still interviewing people and doing the whole
Speaker 2: process of what needs to be done to find out
Speaker 2: and get to the bottom. We're very lucky that we
Speaker 2: did get a dying declaration from Eden to tell us
Speaker 2: who it was. I wonder if we hadn't got that,
Speaker 2: how messed up? More messed up? You know, I would
Speaker 2: be well.
Speaker 1: I suppose it gave you some form of answer or
Speaker 1: an understanding of what happened, And a lot of times
Speaker 1: with murder investigations, there's no idea the initial stages. Anyway,
Speaker 1: you said that the police were good, interested in the
Speaker 1: perspective from a family member. What the type of things
Speaker 1: police can do to help in those situations? What was
Speaker 1: it about police that you thought they handled well well?
Speaker 2: They kept us informed every step of the way. They
Speaker 2: were obviously two years later we had the trial. We
Speaker 2: had two trials. The first trial was six you know,
Speaker 2: it was going to be six weeks long. We said
Speaker 2: that it could be up to that, so I agreed
Speaker 2: to do the first two weeks. My brother said he
Speaker 2: would do the next two weeks because my brother and
Speaker 2: sister live overseas, and then should it continue, my sister
Speaker 2: said that she would fly down fly over as well.
Speaker 2: So it took the six weeks and then it was
Speaker 2: a hung drury.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that must have been hard because the whole process.
Speaker 1: I think people assume because we watch it on TV
Speaker 1: or crime shows on TV. If something happens, please have
Speaker 1: caught the person, then it's going to be resolved quickly.
Speaker 1: But this goes over years. It's a long drawn out process.
Speaker 1: When did you find out that police had made the
Speaker 1: arrest of a j.
Speaker 2: They came to mum and dad's house. Yep, they found
Speaker 2: him in a nightclub and apparently the way Dad describes
Speaker 2: it is that he they had been under shaven and
Speaker 2: we're very very excited to let mum and dad know
Speaker 2: that they had found him because yeah, he went a well,
Speaker 2: I guess for two weeks, so that was concerning as
Speaker 2: well for us. So yeah, that was But in terms
Speaker 2: of going back to the police, they were obviously at
Speaker 2: shout out to Timpuli from d Way Police. He was
Speaker 2: there every day with the court case who was representing
Speaker 2: the family. So yeah, really really great support. We still
Speaker 2: speak to him to this day.
Speaker 1: That's good and I think that should be the type
Speaker 1: of relationship investigating police ap with family members have someone kill,
Speaker 1: because it's intense. It's an intense, deeply emotional situation and
Speaker 1: if you've got the police officer that cares, that can
Speaker 1: make it make a difference, Well.
Speaker 2: I mean, who else do we have to go to?
Speaker 2: I mean, we have your storative Yeah, that's that was
Speaker 2: kind of our thinking, is we don't have any one
Speaker 2: to go to for answers. And obviously, you know, eventually
Speaker 2: we had restorative justice and the DPP and stuff like that,
Speaker 2: but that didn't happen immediately, so there was no sort
Speaker 2: of homicide counseling given to us immediately. We did get
Speaker 2: offered that a little bit further down the track, and
Speaker 2: I was like, well, you know, so those services are available, but.
Speaker 1: How did it make you feel when someone had actually
Speaker 1: been charged, When the police told you that they charged someone,
Speaker 1: What sort of emotions went through your heart and mind
Speaker 1: at that stage?
Speaker 2: Well, we were still in shock, you know. Two weeks later,
Speaker 2: we were obviously happy that they had found him, but
Speaker 2: there was still so many questions. We didn't know who
Speaker 2: he was, you know, what happened. There was still that
Speaker 2: big question as to what happened. Because in Eden's Dye
Speaker 2: declaration he said, AJ did it and I think they'd
Speaker 2: asked him why did they do it? And he said
Speaker 2: don't know, So it kind of makes sense now that
Speaker 2: like that. For us, it was like, well, what the
Speaker 2: what the heck happened? Like, how did that ererupt? You
Speaker 2: know what? And why why did no one go to
Speaker 2: my brother's rescue? He literally had to drag himself up
Speaker 2: the street dying, bleeding to death and knock on someone's
Speaker 2: door window at two o'clock in the morning, which would
Speaker 2: have been extremely scary for that person who then went
Speaker 2: got his neighbor and then had to you know, thankfully
Speaker 2: those two guys came out and tried to stop the bleeding,
Speaker 2: called the ambulance. So why was he And you know,
Speaker 2: there was all these people in court as well who
Speaker 2: had to who were horrified as well. There was a
Speaker 2: girl who drove past at that time and Aiden tried
Speaker 2: to flager down, but you know, the big burly guy,
Speaker 2: Aiden was really big, covered in blood, and I imagine
Speaker 2: there was a bit of a scatter of people around
Speaker 2: as well, and she immediately got home and rang the police.
Speaker 2: But she wasn't gonna. I wouldn't do this.
Speaker 1: I would not know, I can.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she was completely traumatized, had to come to court
Speaker 2: as well, and and so and of course the ambulance
Speaker 2: got there before the police, so the ambos couldn't get out. Yeah,
Speaker 2: they couldn't wait. They had to wait, so eventually they
Speaker 2: did come and then they Yeah, they got him in there,
Speaker 2: but yeah, he.
Speaker 1: Just how did it change you and the family when
Speaker 1: you had a family member murdered?
Speaker 2: Wow, well it changes your life forever.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you lose faith in humanity or I would imagine
Speaker 1: that the potentially could cause divisions in the family. It
Speaker 1: might bring you closer to give her probably a whole
Speaker 1: range of emotions.
Speaker 2: I think we all dealt with the grief in different ways.
Speaker 2: You know, you go through a whole stack of emotions
Speaker 2: like grief, loss, anger, but mostly bringing us together. Yeah.
Speaker 2: But I was just seeing my parents, which is the
Speaker 2: most horrible I know.
Speaker 1: And I'm apologize for bringing this up, but I think
Speaker 1: it's important people understand what really happens with crime, the
Speaker 1: depth of emotion that kicks in. And it break my
Speaker 1: heart when I spoke to you talking about getting aj
Speaker 1: On and you said, look, I can deal with him
Speaker 1: coming on and if he's turned his life around. But
Speaker 1: to this day, my parents are still broken by the
Speaker 1: fact that their son's been murdered. Yeah, we're talking from
Speaker 1: twenty ten to present day, and they're still carry carrying
Speaker 1: that plan.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean no parents should have to, you know,
Speaker 2: better with their child, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, you're very much involved in their advocacy side
Speaker 1: of things, and we will talk in depth about that.
Speaker 1: From a court's perspective, do you think the needs of
Speaker 1: the victim's families properly catered for? Where you kept informed
Speaker 1: on what was going on? You said that you had
Speaker 1: a good police officer that was there the whole time,
Speaker 1: which I'm sure helped. Is a system set up to
Speaker 1: acknowledge the pain and the trauma that the victim's families
Speaker 1: are going through.
Speaker 2: I mean, there are homicide services. Whether my family wanted
Speaker 2: to reach out to those or not was a big
Speaker 2: question mark. So I feel like, yeah, it was like
Speaker 2: I guess that was what I was saying, is you know,
Speaker 2: when we all found out, We're sitting around the lounge room,
Speaker 2: We're like, well, what happens next? You know, there was
Speaker 2: not it kind of had to figure that out. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but at that particular time, the police were all investigating and.
Speaker 1: Things like that.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I feel there are services out there and
Speaker 2: some good ones, but yeah, we just didn't really know
Speaker 2: about them at that particular time.
Speaker 1: What about the length of time that court matters, matthers taken.
Speaker 1: There's a whole range of reasons why justice can be slow,
Speaker 1: but I think it's ridiculously slow in some situations. I mean,
Speaker 1: AJ was charged by what you said, So the two
Speaker 1: weeks after after the event and then we're looking at
Speaker 1: the trial years down the track.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's a hard thing. And that's something
Speaker 2: that I didn't really know either that that's how long
Speaker 2: it takes. But yeah, you know, to gather all the evidence,
Speaker 2: and yeah, the two years that was quite painful and
Speaker 2: excruciating for us because you know, we wanted to get
Speaker 2: some answers the trauma. I was sort of seeing that
Speaker 2: there was other people involved, and that's why we had
Speaker 2: a hung jury, is because the police were trying to
Speaker 2: get pinned down more than just a J and so
Speaker 2: that's that's why we ended up having a hung jury,
Speaker 2: because they were going for more than just a J.
Speaker 2: Like AJ didn't act alone. We know that whilst he
Speaker 2: was the one that did stab him, you know, because
Speaker 2: who you believe your brother? He starting decorations, so clearly
Speaker 2: he did do that, but there was other We know
Speaker 2: that there was others involved.
Speaker 1: I always saw the pain that trials and court matters
Speaker 1: could bring to families and the intensity of it and
Speaker 1: it's such a Yeah, it's just a horrible, horrible situation.
Speaker 1: How was it with the media, Like the media play
Speaker 1: a part in these things too. What was your dealing
Speaker 1: to the media? Ye? Better or so?
Speaker 2: Given that the area that we grew up with where
Speaker 2: it happened that we had a lovely journalist actually, but
Speaker 2: he was reporting on it every day and we ended
Speaker 2: up making friends with him. But he Yeah, it was
Speaker 2: dragged through the local newspaper and other newspapers. I remember
Speaker 2: being in Surrey Hills getting my coffee when I used
Speaker 2: to work in Surry Hills, Yeah, and looking over at
Speaker 2: the Sydney Morning Herald and seeing an article about it,
Speaker 2: and I wanted to tap the person in front of
Speaker 2: me and go, that's my brother. That's about my brother.
Speaker 2: And I thought, God, that would be so weird if
Speaker 2: I did do that. Weird, understandable, but I just wanted
Speaker 2: to shout to the rooftops, I'm like God. So that
Speaker 2: was really hard, especially with some of the stuff that
Speaker 2: came through the media, which you may or may not
Speaker 2: necessarily have been true. Like there was a lot of
Speaker 2: question around still what happened.
Speaker 1: The thing about the way court matters are covered in
Speaker 1: the media too. If something set in court, a decision
Speaker 1: hasn't been made whether this is true or not true.
Speaker 1: But if someone makes an allegation or someone says something,
Speaker 1: the journalists can report that this is what was set
Speaker 1: in court because it's public record, and I think you
Speaker 1: need that scrutiny, but it can be very misleading. I've
Speaker 1: been involved in cases where I'm seeing things reported I've
Speaker 1: just gone and then the general public are reading that headline,
Speaker 1: and then that's a narrative. They might have the paper
Speaker 1: or listen to the news the next day, so that's
Speaker 1: the narrative they've sat with. So yeah, I asked this
Speaker 1: of victims who have been murdered, what their dealings were
Speaker 1: like with the media, because some some resent it and
Speaker 1: others understand the need for it, and it's just a
Speaker 1: it's a real delicate, delicate area.
Speaker 2: At first it was really hard, and then like I said,
Speaker 2: we made friends with the guy and he yeah, he,
Speaker 2: I don't know. It was just something, you know, and
Speaker 2: even like Eden's funeral, you know, there was a picture
Speaker 2: of his coffin and in the particular newspaper as well,
Speaker 2: like that was hard to deal with and you know
Speaker 2: things like that.
Speaker 1: Well, it's another thing that you most people aren't used to,
Speaker 1: is first of all being caught up in criminal procedures
Speaker 1: like that, but also at your worst emotional stage exposed
Speaker 1: to the public in the rows.
Speaker 2: Of Yeah, so those ones were not great. That's we
Speaker 2: would much prefer that that didn't happen that one. Yeah,
Speaker 2: we also had at the funeral and we had swarms
Speaker 2: of police there as well, which filming and it was yeah,
Speaker 2: that was really weird as well, trying to see whether
Speaker 2: any of them turned up, which they of course didn't.
Speaker 2: But yeah, so the media it was hard, but we yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean they do. They just report on what comes
Speaker 2: out in court that day and whether it's true or not.
Speaker 1: Sitting at court and we're not. The court result speaks
Speaker 1: for itself, and I don't want you to mention specific people,
Speaker 1: but sitting there and hearing things that come across in
Speaker 1: court because it's your brother's murder, you have been listening
Speaker 1: very intently and all the things that come across in
Speaker 1: court from witnesses in the witness box, the legal fraternity
Speaker 1: and how they put the spin on it or almost
Speaker 1: like it's theater for them and don't quite touch into
Speaker 1: the emotion of what's been discussed. How was the whole
Speaker 1: court process.
Speaker 2: For you, the defense lawyer? I mean, we thought it
Speaker 2: would be over day dot because the opening line was
Speaker 2: the triple low call, and like we were like, we
Speaker 2: know who did it, so why do we need to
Speaker 2: go through six weeks of court? Yeah, and then we
Speaker 2: ended up having him to do another trial after that.
Speaker 1: And you've mentioned the hung jury, and for people that
Speaker 1: don't understand, that's where the jury members can't make a
Speaker 1: unanimous decision on guilt or innocence and therefore the hung jury,
Speaker 1: and invariably that means he's going to be another another trial.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we had to go through another trial that
Speaker 2: was that was pretty crap.
Speaker 1: What was like sitting in the court looking at aj.
Speaker 2: He was very pan faced. He didn't look like it
Speaker 2: was bizarre is probably a way to describe it. Just
Speaker 2: I tried not to look at him, to be honest. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but he was not happy as you would be, So
Speaker 2: I think that was hard. It was, yeah, just I
Speaker 2: don't know. All these things are flooding back now. Some
Speaker 2: things have blocked out, a lot of things have blocked out.
Speaker 2: I think looking up there, I'm like, just tell us
Speaker 2: what happened, and he did get up and say something.
Speaker 2: And I think seeing the other guys that you know,
Speaker 2: had to bring in on the bus from the from jail,
Speaker 2: they were kind of just as scary.
Speaker 1: I guess my understanding, Correct me if I'm wrong. During
Speaker 1: the second trial, AJ made the decision to plead guilty
Speaker 1: on it. How did that make yourself and your family feel?
Speaker 2: I mean, relieved, you know, nothing was going to bring
Speaker 2: my brother back, but relieved that we had an ending.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 2: I'm of the understanding that that mum and dad were
Speaker 2: pulled aside. I wasn't there that day and because I
Speaker 2: had to work, and they were pulled aside and said
Speaker 2: he can either go for murder or manslaughter, and he
Speaker 2: could get away with murder or we could go for manslaughter.
Speaker 2: And my mum just went, heck, no, we're going to
Speaker 2: go for murder with the risks that he might get off.
Speaker 1: So break this down. I'm surmising here, but I've seen
Speaker 1: this before where and it's good that at least they're consulting
Speaker 1: with the families, because I've seen it where the prosecution
Speaker 1: don't consult with the families and or hell breaks loose.
Speaker 1: But the prosecution speaking to your mum and dad and saying, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: we could take manslaughter because he might beat murder. So
Speaker 1: that's a terrible situation to be put in, and you're
Speaker 1: not very informed on the nuances of the law, and
Speaker 1: it's a horrible situation to be put in. But I'm
Speaker 1: still glad that that they they were spoken about it.
Speaker 1: What did they say.
Speaker 2: I'm of the understanding that they were pulled aside and
Speaker 2: they said he could either go for manslaughter and we
Speaker 2: could agree to that and he would definitely go away
Speaker 2: for you know, what is it eight years or whatever,
Speaker 2: or if we go for murder, then he could possibly
Speaker 2: get off and go not go he'd already been in
Speaker 2: there for two years, right or more than that in
Speaker 2: a second trial. So and mum just said, no, hell no,
Speaker 2: he killed my boy, we're going for murder. And then
Speaker 2: he played guilty. Yeah, yeah, that's my understanding.
Speaker 1: Yeah, look at that would be how I could imagine that,
Speaker 1: imagine that's playing out. So it doesn't surprise me. But
Speaker 1: it's a horrible responsibility to put on the on the families,
Speaker 1: isn't it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean we were like, I mean, I wasn't
Speaker 2: there that day, but Dad was like, oh, we just
Speaker 2: you know, he deserves to go away for some time
Speaker 2: at least. But Mum was the one that just not happening.
Speaker 1: What changes did you see in your parents going through
Speaker 1: that process, because, as we spoke about earlier, it's the
Speaker 1: worst thing that could happened to a parent. But then
Speaker 1: the court matter and just like an ongoing nightmare.
Speaker 2: I would imagine Mum's very stoic. She was there every
Speaker 2: minute of every court every day. Dad some days he
Speaker 2: just you know, it wasn't well enough, you know. And
Speaker 2: that's a lot to go to every single day to court.
Speaker 2: And of course, you know, all of us had to
Speaker 2: kind of go back to work, and you know I would.
Speaker 2: I was close by, so I was able to drop
Speaker 2: in as much as I possibly can because I was
Speaker 2: working in Surrey Hills at the time. So look there. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I saw it affect my dad more than my mum.
Speaker 2: But like I said, Mum's very stoic.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And all of my brothers and sisters have dealt with
Speaker 2: things differently. I some some of my siblings have really
Speaker 2: want to put this just behind them and they're just
Speaker 2: happy to do that, where I don't know. Mum and
Speaker 2: I are a bit like a dog with a bone, yea.
Speaker 2: And Dad's just not checked out from it, but he
Speaker 2: just we kind of spare him from that because he's
Speaker 2: a bit like me with the emotional ones in the family,
Speaker 2: whereas the others are not interesting.
Speaker 1: You say that because you don't know how people are
Speaker 1: going to deal with situations like that, and people choose
Speaker 1: different ways. I often get asked whether I stay in
Speaker 1: contact with family members of victims of homicide, and yes,
Speaker 1: there's quite a few. Idea. There's others that I don't
Speaker 1: speak to because I sort of leave the onus on
Speaker 1: them because it's as a homicide detective if you come
Speaker 1: into their life at the worst possible time, and possibly
Speaker 1: the last thing they want is me phoning up every
Speaker 1: twelve months saying hi, how are you, because it just
Speaker 1: brings up the horror of what they went through. But
Speaker 1: then there's others that like to stay in contact. So
Speaker 1: it's understandable you're saying, even within your family, people will
Speaker 1: dealing with it differently. Your mum and dad were dealing
Speaker 1: with it differently because it's just and talking about it
Speaker 1: like this, I want people to understand because quite often,
Speaker 1: as you said, you read about a crime in the
Speaker 1: paper and it's that day's news and then you sort
Speaker 1: of move on and get on with the rest of
Speaker 1: your life. So there's a big impact, isn't here.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it completely changed our lives forever, Like I've
Speaker 2: got PTSD from it. Yeah, and that doesn't go away.
Speaker 1: With the sentencing when it came down. How long did
Speaker 1: aj get when he was sentenced.
Speaker 2: Eighteen years in eight months and he served fourteen years
Speaker 2: so we got out last June.
Speaker 1: How And I'm not talking in your capacity of the
Speaker 1: advocacy work you do, and this is where I think
Speaker 1: it's quite remarkable the type of work that you do
Speaker 1: and what you've been through. But as Eden's sister, when
Speaker 1: that came down the sentence, how did you feel personally?
Speaker 2: Apparently apparently that was a good sentence, Like if we'd
Speaker 2: got like five years or something like that, that would
Speaker 2: have sucked. So it was a good, fair whack of
Speaker 2: a sentence. You know, after doing my Serious Offender Review
Speaker 2: Council work, when I see murders, I use that as
Speaker 2: a benchmark all the time. So yeah, as in you know,
Speaker 2: the extremity of the So so yeah, we were happy
Speaker 2: with that, as happy as you could be, right, you know,
Speaker 2: because as most people you know, should be away for
Speaker 2: you know, killer life, go away for life. It just
Speaker 2: doesn't happen that way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting sitting down and talking to someone that
Speaker 1: it's so deeply affected by murder. And I have a
Speaker 1: lot of people that, yeah, that's a narrative because of
Speaker 1: the work I'm doing now, all the work I used
Speaker 1: to do. And you know, if you take a life
Speaker 1: that should be a mandatory life sentence, you're in a
Speaker 1: unique position to have been impacted upon it personally having
Speaker 1: your brother murdered and also working in the areas that
Speaker 1: you work. And it's interesting that you say that you
Speaker 1: don't believe in mandatory life sentencing.
Speaker 2: It depends, Yeah, I don't. I think if there's reabilitation,
Speaker 2: I mean there's some people.
Speaker 1: Sorry because I want to clarify that so people don't
Speaker 1: jump on board and bash me for being so there
Speaker 1: are plenty of people and the rehabilitations one aspect that
Speaker 1: I'm just talking from my point of view. You're the
Speaker 1: work that you do, You've got more of an insight
Speaker 1: than I have. But rehabilitations one side of it, but
Speaker 1: there's also a protection of society that's got to come
Speaker 1: into it too. And sometimes, okay, they might appear rehabilitated,
Speaker 1: but we can't take the risk because the consequences are
Speaker 1: too high.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the frustrating thing that I've found is that,
Speaker 2: you know, they have a sentence, they have a parole period,
Speaker 2: and there's you know, I've met serial killers, I've met
Speaker 2: horrendous murderers who have done horrible, horrible, horrible crimes, and
Speaker 2: their sentences finish and they get out. And so what
Speaker 2: we do with the Serious of Offenders Review Council is
Speaker 2: we try and help rehabilitate them back and integrate back
Speaker 2: into the community by you know, obviously doing courses it
Speaker 2: might be violent Offenders therapeutic program or you know, just
Speaker 2: helping them to rehabilitate in the different class os they
Speaker 2: call them within the jails. And so they do move
Speaker 2: around a bit two different you knows, and we hope
Speaker 2: that by the end of it they go from sort
Speaker 2: of on remand A and then to a sentence, then
Speaker 2: to B then see then see on and then see off.
Speaker 2: That's our that's our goal. There's the steps of rehabilitation.
Speaker 2: They don't always get there.
Speaker 1: And explain to people that don't understand the system the
Speaker 1: difference between serving your sentence and now on parole and
Speaker 1: what the benefits one way or the other or Yeah.
Speaker 2: So I know people have a lot of mixed feelings
Speaker 2: about that, that people should just serve out their full sentence.
Speaker 2: But what I've learned is that we really need to
Speaker 2: have be able to monitor them within the community to
Speaker 2: see if they because if those stuff aren't, you.
Speaker 1: Know, you've got something hanging over their head. If there
Speaker 1: is parole you can monitor. Because I've had this discussion
Speaker 1: with people, and I understand the logic that, well, they
Speaker 1: should serve their whole sentence. Why just because they behave
Speaker 1: themselves in prison, why should they?
Speaker 2: And I used to believe that too. I absolutely used
Speaker 2: to believe that as well.
Speaker 1: But there's small complex than that, because if they serve
Speaker 1: their full sentence, we open the prison gates and they're
Speaker 1: out and we can't monitor them. We don't have control
Speaker 1: over they've served their sentence, they get out on parole.
Speaker 1: There's a degree of monitoring.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's the thing, I mean, that was my
Speaker 2: thinking at the very beginning. They should they get twenty
Speaker 2: five years, they stay in there for twenty five years.
Speaker 2: But what I've learned through the Salk work is that
Speaker 2: that reintegration part is really really important because you know,
Speaker 2: they can go in there as animals and come out
Speaker 2: as animals and then just reoffend. And how useful is that.
Speaker 2: Whereas if we're able to monitor them and you know,
Speaker 2: have that help them to reintegrate into the community. I mean,
Speaker 2: some reoffend. There's a lot of recidiviism obviously, right, but
Speaker 2: you know, and then there's you know, people like, well
Speaker 2: why were they let out? And usually it's because their
Speaker 2: sentences are up or and things like that.
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, it's I think the way we look
Speaker 1: at crime, it's and it comes around state election time
Speaker 1: and law and order becomes an issue. We're going to
Speaker 1: get tough on crime. We're going to increase penalties. We're
Speaker 1: going to do this changes of legislation. Sometimes legislation does
Speaker 1: need to be changed. Sometimes sentencing needs to be appropriate.
Speaker 1: I don't believe in mandatory sentencing. But rather than get
Speaker 1: tough on crime, would you agree that we're going to
Speaker 1: get smart on crime rather than tough on crime?
Speaker 2: I think prevention is really really important, and that's a
Speaker 2: lot of the work that I do with my two
Speaker 2: charities that I run. Let's try and prevent this happening
Speaker 2: in the first place. So, yeah, let's help these young
Speaker 2: women and men who are in the foster care system
Speaker 2: because you know, either mom or dad's in jail or
Speaker 2: there addicted to drugs or whatever. How can we help
Speaker 2: prevent that happening. But I think that's where my work.
Speaker 1: When I say smart on crime prevention is the ideal situation.
Speaker 1: Everyone wins. If you can prevent crime, less victims and
Speaker 1: lives aren't just throwing away and wasted in prison. If
Speaker 1: we talk about the prison system, the costs associated with
Speaker 1: keeping someone in Cussida, I think I heard figures banded
Speaker 1: about that breakfast at Parliament House, and I've heard them before,
Speaker 1: but I think it's a minimum of one hundred and
Speaker 1: fifty thousand to keep an adult.
Speaker 2: Prisoner, absolutely minimum. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that we're talking one hundred and fifty thousand
Speaker 1: dollars a year. Yeah, So just think about that. For
Speaker 1: everyone that we put in jail, we're spending one hundred
Speaker 1: and fifty thousand dollars. Now, what sort of diversionary programs
Speaker 1: could be put in place with that type of money.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, absolutely, absolutely so, I mean it's just astounding
Speaker 2: the figures. And you know, and kids in juvie as well,
Speaker 2: they're really I think it's even higher, it's much higher.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean it's astounding that those figures that
Speaker 2: we as tax payers pay for. But you know, let's
Speaker 2: face it, there are some people that need to be
Speaker 2: locked up, and so yeah, yeah, that's that balance of
Speaker 2: do we let them out on parole and monitor them,
Speaker 2: which is going to be cheaper to the community, But
Speaker 2: is it safer for the community.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, the safety of the community's got to be paramount.
Speaker 1: But if we can prevent crime, that's tapping into keeping
Speaker 1: the community safe. It's not Yeah, it's not going soft
Speaker 1: just because people aren't in prison. If we're keeping people
Speaker 1: away from crime and the community safe. But I look
Speaker 1: at the money, if you just look at it from
Speaker 1: a monetary position, I'm thinking one hundred and fifty thousand,
Speaker 1: and you give me someone that's off track, I reckon
Speaker 1: I could wisely spend one hundred and fifty thousand and then
Speaker 1: keep that person back on track with the money we
Speaker 1: had Tim Watson Monroe on the podcast years Ago criminal psychologist,
Speaker 1: vastly experienced, and he was working in paramount of prison
Speaker 1: years ago, you know, a bygone era, and he was
Speaker 1: making the point for all the money that's spent with
Speaker 1: people in custody, you could basically have their own private
Speaker 1: psychologists monitoring everything they do all day, amount of money.
Speaker 1: Getting back to what happened to Eden and Aj once
Speaker 1: he was sentenced? Did you think about him? Was it?
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to a what you carried with your
Speaker 1: once the sentencing, because that chapter in your life had
Speaker 1: come to a conclusion, like the court matter and now
Speaker 1: the persons serving jail. I've been chastised by victims where
Speaker 1: I say we'll get we'll give you closure if we
Speaker 1: put this person away. And I learned that very early
Speaker 1: in my homicide career that you don't get closure from it.
Speaker 1: But I just want to get a sense of your
Speaker 1: getting on with your life. You're missing your brother because
Speaker 1: the life has been stolen from you and someone's in prison.
Speaker 1: How does it? How did you feel personally?
Speaker 2: I think the unresolved part of why and we still
Speaker 2: kind of have those questions. You're having a j on
Speaker 2: he kind of gave us a little bit more clarity
Speaker 2: around that that he didn't remember what happened, but there
Speaker 2: were people there that them would have. So it's that
Speaker 2: what the hell happened is still a big question mark
Speaker 2: for us, you know, and I think that's always going
Speaker 2: to be. We're not going to have closure until I'm
Speaker 2: hoping that when AJ in years too, when he gets
Speaker 2: when he can, I can sit down with him and ask.
Speaker 1: Him, Well, you may made the comment before we started
Speaker 1: the podcast that you're seeing in the seat that the
Speaker 1: AJ was sitting in, and I apologize for that. It
Speaker 1: must be confronting for you and that regards.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's all right, it's yeah. You just have to
Speaker 2: deal with those things, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, But weird other than this idiot X
Speaker 1: cop Now podcast and me contacting you saying that we're
Speaker 1: getting AJ on there. Did you were you aware when
Speaker 1: he was released from prison? Had you were you notified
Speaker 1: formally notified? Yeah? What happened? What happened there? And how
Speaker 1: did you feel at that point?
Speaker 2: Restorative Justice asked us and kept us informed of everything
Speaker 2: that was happening. I actually went to the the bail
Speaker 2: hearing in Paramatta and so that was he was up
Speaker 2: on av obviously and and he Yeah, it was We
Speaker 2: were informed every step of the way. Look, we had
Speaker 2: heard that he had reformed himself, and so we I
Speaker 2: don't think we had any qualms with him getting out.
Speaker 2: It was just more that that he was going to
Speaker 2: stay on track for us.
Speaker 1: Were you asked to provide input or family thoughts before
Speaker 1: the decision was made?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Mum and Dad did that.
Speaker 1: And what what was their position?
Speaker 2: They were happy for him to get out if he
Speaker 2: if he had reformed himself.
Speaker 1: So where do you as a family get that kindness from?
Speaker 1: Because I, in all honesty, I would like to think
Speaker 1: that I would be that that way in a set
Speaker 1: of circumstances. And I'm sure other people would think they
Speaker 1: can have that sort of genuine kindness understanding, empathy or whatever.
Speaker 1: And I'm not putting that as a weakness by any mean.
Speaker 1: But where where do you get that those values from? Well?
Speaker 2: I think we when what's the saying, if you hold
Speaker 2: on to resentment, it's like you're drinking poison and expecting
Speaker 2: the other person to die. Like that's a good one.
Speaker 2: One person has lost their life and one's willing to
Speaker 2: make us, you know, take a second chance of his Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: but yeah, my mum and dad are very empathetic. They're
Speaker 2: lovely people and we've I don't know that's where I've
Speaker 2: learned it from.
Speaker 1: Well, it comes across. So it's full credit to them
Speaker 1: as your parents and you because it can't have kind
Speaker 1: of been easy. The advocacy work I want to talk
Speaker 1: about later on in the podcast or in the next
Speaker 1: portion of the podcast. But were you doing that when
Speaker 1: at the time it's already doing it? Okay, So what
Speaker 1: we're sort of jumped in and you're the expert on
Speaker 1: prison sentencing and serial killers and all that. But you're
Speaker 1: a teacher first up, weren't you?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I was a high school teacher.
Speaker 1: Okay, So there's a big step from going from a
Speaker 1: high school teacher getting into the type of work that
Speaker 1: you're doing. How did that happen?
Speaker 2: So I was a performing arts teacher and I yeah,
Speaker 2: I was. I loved my job. I had two sort
Speaker 2: of parallels to my job. I had working with some
Speaker 2: really really really talented students who went on to WHOPPERA
Speaker 2: and not either and yeah, and this incredible job working with
Speaker 2: these and you know, had such great relationships with their families,
Speaker 2: and we had great rapport with those students after school
Speaker 2: because so I worked ridiculous hours, but you know, we
Speaker 2: had some great, fantastic results with the young And then
Speaker 2: there was the other parallel of my job was that
Speaker 2: I the other teachers thought I was a little bit crazy,
Speaker 2: bit nuts, but I wanted to work with the students
Speaker 2: who had who had behavioral problems, who were or who
Speaker 2: were deemed as having behavioral problems with their schools. So
Speaker 2: they were they weren't eight A or B or C.
Speaker 2: They were you know, sort of further down the track.
Speaker 2: So I was like, give me those classes. I absolutely
Speaker 2: loved those working with those kids.
Speaker 1: And what was it about that that you got so
Speaker 1: much joy from ma?
Speaker 2: Because their behavior is not them and I love the
Speaker 2: challenge of their behavior and that I found that because
Speaker 2: of the empathy that I do have and the persistence,
Speaker 2: like they were pretty naughty some of them.
Speaker 1: How old are we talking?
Speaker 2: Oh, well, seven to twelve, but that usually it was.
Speaker 1: Little shits at that stage.
Speaker 2: Yeah right here right, they say always say year seven,
Speaker 2: they're new in the school. Year eight. They started to
Speaker 2: go a little bit fairer if they can. And they
Speaker 2: year nines when they hit the and in year ten
Speaker 2: they try and get back back on the track. So
Speaker 2: that's kind of teacher language. But yeah, I absolutely loved
Speaker 2: working with them because they would, oh they'd test me out. Yeah,
Speaker 2: they would test me out.
Speaker 1: But have you have you got an example without identifying
Speaker 1: that the kid, but one kid that you thought, okay,
Speaker 1: this kid he or she could slip through the gaps here,
Speaker 1: and how it turned around and what what what it
Speaker 1: did for you?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely, I or lots of stories, lots of stories.
Speaker 2: There was one particular guy and he he was huge,
Speaker 2: he was he would bellow over me and he was
Speaker 2: back in the days. It might have changed now, but
Speaker 2: principals would swap when kids got expelled. They do swoppies.
Speaker 2: So he came to the school and of course when
Speaker 2: they come new to the school, they have their they've
Speaker 2: got their bravado on and you know, trying to find
Speaker 2: you put it on and test the teacher out. And
Speaker 2: usually they would do that once and they would never
Speaker 2: do it again. Because I was pretty strict but fair,
Speaker 2: and I ended up having great report because I sat
Speaker 2: him aside and I just said that what's going on
Speaker 2: for you? And you know, he explained that life was
Speaker 2: really really tough at at home, which is usually the case.
Speaker 2: Nine times out of ten, there's something going on in
Speaker 2: the background, whether it's abuse, neglect, trauma. And so he
Speaker 2: was brilliant in my classes from then. And there was
Speaker 2: once a week where I would actually go and see
Speaker 2: another teacher and to have a coffee with her, which
Speaker 2: was very rare, like teachers heat up their coffees like
Speaker 2: seven times. You would have probably been the same as
Speaker 2: a call, like hit your coffee up seven times a day.
Speaker 2: And I went over and I would see him every
Speaker 2: single time in the corridor and I'd say to him,
Speaker 2: what have you done? Now? What have you done? Now?
Speaker 2: What's happened?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 2: Miss she threw me up because of this, blah blah blah.
Speaker 2: I said, well, you probably shouldn't have done that, but
Speaker 2: you know what he did. And then one day he said,
Speaker 2: I'm out here now because I didn't didn't get my
Speaker 2: homework done. And I said, well, why didn't you get
Speaker 2: your homework done? You know what was the problem? We said, Oh,
Speaker 2: Dad beat mom up. Mum went off to hospital. Dad
Speaker 2: went off to the cop shop, and I had to
Speaker 2: go and stay with the neighbors. And then I still
Speaker 2: had to get my siblings ready for school that morning,
Speaker 2: and he started to cry. So I had to pull
Speaker 2: him aside and big burly guy like, and so from
Speaker 2: then on, I just you know, went to the school
Speaker 2: counselor and I just said, look, we hit this kid
Speaker 2: needs help, you know, we need to be able to
Speaker 2: support him. Anyway, he did end up dropping out, but
Speaker 2: he would sometimes come and visit me. Wow, yeah at school,
Speaker 2: like maybe you're not supposed to be on the school campus,
Speaker 2: but he would anyway. Years later, years later, I was
Speaker 2: coming out of the gym at Bondo Junction and Spring
Speaker 2: Street and I come out of a boxing class, spin
Speaker 2: classes anyway, it was all sweaty and you know when
Speaker 2: you finished it, you know, gross gross hair and this.
Speaker 2: I could hear this, see this out of the corner
Speaker 2: of my eye. This this kid running towards me. And
Speaker 2: I was like, shit, what's going on? I mean, it
Speaker 2: was busy, so I wasn't too scared. And he was
Speaker 2: like miss, miss miss and I was like, oh, okay,
Speaker 2: all right, it's the next student. It's fine. It bowed
Speaker 2: me over and he said, can I give you a
Speaker 2: big hug? You changed my life. I've got my I've
Speaker 2: got a job at DAB high five. I'm now about
Speaker 2: to be manager. And you know, I just wanted to
Speaker 2: tell you that you changed my life. And he's like, I, miss,
Speaker 2: I can give you stuffed discount, and so yeah, just
Speaker 2: just yeah, that's that's one story.
Speaker 1: That's that's a beautiful story. But this one kid, seriously,
Speaker 1: like one kid's life changed just by you showing some
Speaker 1: kindness and interests. And yeah, he so easily could have
Speaker 1: been just dismissed as just to trump.
Speaker 2: He would have ended up in jails or something like that,
Speaker 2: not because of me, but because a link in the chain,
Speaker 2: because we put him in touch with different services and
Speaker 2: things like that. So but yeah, he was heading that
Speaker 2: way like.
Speaker 1: His dad, like his dad, And you wonder how many
Speaker 1: kids are like that, And they're not They're not going
Speaker 1: to come in and reveal all that to you unless
Speaker 1: you take the time to sit down and just show it.
Speaker 1: Must be the first bit of genuine interest he's seen.
Speaker 1: So how important is that? I often hear about the
Speaker 1: law and order issues with the state elections and that
Speaker 1: and more money in policing, And yeah, you can you
Speaker 1: can argue that case, but I honestly believe if we
Speaker 1: want to make a difference in crime, pour it in
Speaker 1: the education. How like the work that you were doing.
Speaker 1: How important do you think it is for kids to
Speaker 1: be educated, to give him self esteem to start.
Speaker 2: Well, that's that's been the core of both my charity,
Speaker 2: it is with working with young girls. So I went
Speaker 2: on from teaching because I did see, you know, young
Speaker 2: kids falling through the cracks of the welfare system and
Speaker 2: the school system. And so I thought, well, where do
Speaker 2: I start. Do I start with the boys, do I
Speaker 2: start with the girls? And I thought, well, being a female,
Speaker 2: I could probably you know, let's start with the girls.
Speaker 2: And so yeah, I worked with that rich teenage girls
Speaker 2: for seventeen years and so quite a few stories and
Speaker 2: lots of success stories as well.
Speaker 1: So we will talk about it, sister, the sister and
Speaker 1: worry a woman and all the other stuff that you've
Speaker 1: been doing. But twenty ten you had left schools and
Speaker 1: you were working in the abuxacy space.
Speaker 2: Two thousand and three.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you've been doing it for a long long time.
Speaker 1: When you were thrust into the justice system with the
Speaker 1: murder of your brother, did that change your thinking at
Speaker 1: all or did that sort of reinforce the importance of
Speaker 1: the work that you're doing well.
Speaker 2: I've been working in the space for a long time anyway,
Speaker 2: so I've worked with a lot of girls in dog's
Speaker 2: care and in and out of juvy and stuff like that,
Speaker 2: so I was kind of aware of but with teenagers.
Speaker 2: But Warrior Woman was born from my need and want
Speaker 2: to help young women leaving the out of home care
Speaker 2: system because and that was prompted by ag Kelly, my brother,
Speaker 2: because he did grow I know he didn't mention it,
Speaker 2: but he did. His foster care mum was there every
Speaker 2: day at court and there's an emerging adulthood gap where
Speaker 2: things can go incredibly wrong or incredibly right where I mean,
Speaker 2: they've raised the age to twenty one from kids leaving
Speaker 2: out of home care, which has been wonderful, but it
Speaker 2: used to be eighteen and they've kind of just booted
Speaker 2: out on their eighteenth.
Speaker 1: Birthday and their babies.
Speaker 2: And when they've been through abuse and trauma and foster
Speaker 2: I worked with a lot of foster GA kids during
Speaker 2: Sister to Sister. There are two to three years behind
Speaker 2: in really important subjects like English and mouths. So when
Speaker 2: they get to eighteen, you know they may well have
Speaker 2: most of you know, dropped out of school. So going
Speaker 2: back to the education, that's what we're really really important.
Speaker 2: But yeah, the stats for young people leaving the out
Speaker 2: of home care in Australia is, you know, two thirds
Speaker 2: of the youth homeless population made up of young people
Speaker 2: leaving the out of home care system and one in
Speaker 2: two or one in three stats. Sometimes the stats very
Speaker 2: that I read end up either unemployed, incarcerated which is
Speaker 2: normally more so the boys than the girls, and homeless
Speaker 2: or a first time parent within the twelve months of leaving. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so that's you know, with everything that happened with AJ,
Speaker 2: knowing he came from the foster care and his story
Speaker 2: is obviously horrendous his upbringing, so I thought, well, I'll
Speaker 2: start another charity.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can see why it would motivate you. If
Speaker 1: you're looking at that, go and look at the pain
Speaker 1: my family's gone through, and maybe if someone was in
Speaker 1: there to help AJ, that pain could have been prevented.
Speaker 1: So I understand where the motivation comes from. Let's take it,
Speaker 1: take a break now, and then we'll delve deeply into worry.
Speaker 1: A woman and assisted the sister and you work on
Speaker 1: the Serious Offenders Review Board, because I think, honestly, I've
Speaker 1: said this when I was in the cops, I thought,
Speaker 1: you know, as a policeman, I'm making the difference of
Speaker 1: resting people and all that. But I think it's people
Speaker 1: like you, the quiet ones, just chipping away and making
Speaker 1: the more of a difference to reduce crime than we
Speaker 1: do in the police. And that's not being critical of
Speaker 1: the police. We need police, and there's some great, great police,
Speaker 1: but there's different ways of fighting crime, isn't there.
Speaker 2: And reducing crime, yeah, I just think trying to prevent
Speaker 2: it is the best, you know, which is not easy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but we're gonna try. Okay, let's have a
Speaker 1: break and we'll be back for part two. Cheers. M