WEBVTT - Why she’s ok that her brother's killer is free: Jessica Brown Pt. 1 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:04.880 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:08.039 detective sy aside of life. The average person has never 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:11.119 exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:14.040 For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.200 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:20.560 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.120 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.400 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:28.760 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.440 and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.640 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.640 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:40.400 Join me now as I take you into this world. 0:00:46.479 --> 0:00:49.600 On what was otherwise an ordinary day, Jessica Brown was 0:00:49.680 --> 0:00:52.559 driving to a parents' house when she found out her 0:00:52.600 --> 0:00:56.720 brother Eden had been stabbed to death. Grief after murder 0:00:56.760 --> 0:00:59.560 is unlike anything else. There's a lot of pain and 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:03.640 overwhelm in sadness combined with anger. If you're a regular 0:01:03.720 --> 0:01:06.360 listener of Eye Catch Killers, you remember one of the 0:01:06.400 --> 0:01:09.919 most confronting conversations I had on this show was sitting 0:01:09.959 --> 0:01:14.480 across from Anthony Jones, the man who took Eden's life. Today, 0:01:14.680 --> 0:01:17.840 we hear the other side of the story. In this episode, 0:01:18.319 --> 0:01:21.720 Jessica shares what it means to survive after the murder 0:01:21.760 --> 0:01:24.360 of someone you love and how she turned that pain 0:01:24.440 --> 0:01:28.480 into purpose. Jessica's a driving force behind Sister The Sister 0:01:29.040 --> 0:01:31.959 and Worry a Woman, and also sits on the Serious 0:01:31.959 --> 0:01:35.160 Offenders Review Board. She has a lot to talk about 0:01:35.200 --> 0:01:38.080 regarding the world of crime. Have a listen to what 0:01:38.160 --> 0:01:43.800 she has to say. Jessica Brown, Welcome to I Catch Killers. 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:45.080 Thank you for having me. 0:01:45.640 --> 0:01:48.480 Well. We've been in a lot of communication in the 0:01:49.560 --> 0:01:52.280 last couple of months, so it's good to finally have 0:01:52.400 --> 0:01:55.000 you in the studio and sit down and talk to you. 0:01:55.200 --> 0:01:56.760 Thanks for having me well. 0:01:56.920 --> 0:01:58.920 I've also got to thank you for the invite to 0:01:59.000 --> 0:02:02.280 the Keeping Women out of Prison breakfast at State Parliament. 0:02:02.440 --> 0:02:04.880 I attended a couple of weeks ago. It was quite 0:02:04.920 --> 0:02:07.000 interesting some of the things that were raised there. 0:02:07.440 --> 0:02:10.440 Yeah, I think it's important. That was the tenth anniversary, 0:02:10.480 --> 0:02:13.320 wasn't it. Yes, in Parliament House. What were the points 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:14.040 that you got from that? 0:02:14.480 --> 0:02:17.200 They raised like a couple of points and I was 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:20.240 going to raise some of it. Some of the statistics 0:02:20.280 --> 0:02:24.840 were quite concerning remand and sentencing. Sixty percent of women 0:02:24.880 --> 0:02:28.200 in prison and on remand and fifty two percent don't 0:02:28.200 --> 0:02:32.600 receive a custodial sentence. Now, breaking that down, you've got 0:02:32.840 --> 0:02:35.400 sixty percent in prison on remand. So these are people 0:02:35.400 --> 0:02:37.680 that haven't been convicted of a crime at this point 0:02:37.680 --> 0:02:41.000 in time. They've been put in custody, but there's no conviction. 0:02:41.960 --> 0:02:45.720 So sixty percent of women we have in the prison 0:02:45.760 --> 0:02:50.200 system in this state, and of that sixty percent, fifty 0:02:50.240 --> 0:02:52.360 two percent when the matter is finalized at court, they 0:02:52.360 --> 0:02:56.560 don't get a custodi or sentence concerning. 0:02:56.200 --> 0:03:01.200 Yeah, exactly. So I only dealt with the seriousers through 0:03:01.240 --> 0:03:06.400 the SERI Offenders Review Council. So the statistics between the 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:10.680 males and females are quite alarming. So you've got forty 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:14.160 six in New South Wales and then you've got eight 0:03:14.240 --> 0:03:17.280 hundred and forty five I think it is of males 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:20.119 within New South Wales. So that sort of says yes, 0:03:20.320 --> 0:03:24.239 and these are the most serious offenders, and most serious 0:03:24.280 --> 0:03:28.359 offenders are in there for murder over half half of them, 0:03:29.040 --> 0:03:32.520 and men sexual assault as well. But yeah, a lot 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:34.920 of the women are the murder as well, a lot 0:03:35.000 --> 0:03:35.360 of them. 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:38.680 I think given the nature of the breakfast at Parliament 0:03:38.800 --> 0:03:41.480 House Keep Women out of Prison, that was we're just 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:44.480 looking at alternate ways, you know obviously, and I think, 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:47.360 and we're going to talk about your experience with crime, 0:03:47.400 --> 0:03:51.800 with the murder of your brother Eden, and yeah, that's 0:03:52.200 --> 0:03:55.400 as real as it gets to be caught up in 0:03:55.440 --> 0:03:58.720 the world of crime. But if we can do something 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:02.080 better and help people turn them around, is the work 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:03.720 that you do and the work that you've been doing 0:04:03.760 --> 0:04:06.960 for quite some time, I think we're in a better place. 0:04:07.240 --> 0:04:10.040 Another thing that came out or another thing I picked 0:04:10.120 --> 0:04:12.960 up during the whole range of guests speakers that they 0:04:13.000 --> 0:04:16.480 had at the breakfast, was it sixty percent of incarcerated 0:04:16.520 --> 0:04:19.520 women and mothers. Now, it shouldn't give you a free 0:04:19.560 --> 0:04:22.680 pass from jail just because you're a mother. But I 0:04:22.680 --> 0:04:24.880 think the flow on effect from that is that when 0:04:24.880 --> 0:04:29.560 a mother, because generally they're the primary care of children, 0:04:29.920 --> 0:04:33.560 when mothers are taken away from the family structure, you 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:36.120 can see ongoing, ongoing issues there. 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:39.000 Yeah, negative ripple effects. A lot of the kids end 0:04:39.080 --> 0:04:41.880 up in foster care if the mother is the primary 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:46.360 care and also just the knock on effect of having 0:04:47.560 --> 0:04:51.960 someone in incarcerated. You know, it can be quite devastating 0:04:51.960 --> 0:04:54.479 for young women and men. Obviously, I've been working in 0:04:54.520 --> 0:04:57.480 the women in girls space for many years now, but yeah, 0:04:57.680 --> 0:05:00.599 I've seen the devastating effects of know what it's like 0:05:00.640 --> 0:05:03.479 for young women to have parents who are in cars rated. 0:05:03.800 --> 0:05:07.680 Yeah. Well, and the advocacy work is very important because 0:05:07.720 --> 0:05:09.880 I think when we talk crime, and I know I've 0:05:09.880 --> 0:05:12.440 been guilty of it, more so when I'm out of 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:15.039 the police. But doing the podcast, we talk crime, we 0:05:15.120 --> 0:05:18.520 talk prisons and all that, but we forget about the 0:05:18.560 --> 0:05:23.359 female prisons quite often. You mentioned jail, and your image 0:05:23.560 --> 0:05:25.440 is of a group of men walking around in the 0:05:25.920 --> 0:05:28.799 yard somewhere. We don't often think about women in prison. 0:05:29.560 --> 0:05:33.200 Yeah. Well, interesting enough. With my sauc work, obviously, I've 0:05:33.200 --> 0:05:35.920 put a pause on that at the moment, but I 0:05:36.360 --> 0:05:40.800 started that in two thousand and four. I only saw 0:05:40.839 --> 0:05:43.000 three women. Out of all of them, they're all men, 0:05:43.640 --> 0:05:47.320 and that was an interesting fact. But the ones that 0:05:47.440 --> 0:05:50.719 were there were interesting too, and they were all mothers. 0:05:51.120 --> 0:05:54.640 Right yep. So just because you mentioned saur and acronyms, 0:05:54.640 --> 0:05:56.960 I always get lost in acronyms, But serious effect. 0:05:57.000 --> 0:05:59.400 There's a lot of acronyms in saulk okay. 0:05:59.520 --> 0:06:03.640 Serious of a review board and that's looking at people 0:06:03.720 --> 0:06:07.520 that are in for serious crimes and what is to 0:06:07.560 --> 0:06:10.000 become of them and whether they should be released in 0:06:10.080 --> 0:06:13.200 different things. Yeah, yeah, one last and we'll just finish 0:06:13.200 --> 0:06:17.719 off on the breakfast. Another stat that came out was 0:06:17.800 --> 0:06:20.760 Aboriginal women make up forty percent of the female prison 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:25.000 population and there are only three percent of the state's 0:06:25.040 --> 0:06:28.040 female population, which is concerning, isn't it. 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:31.720 Yeah. Absolutely, And in terms of just going back to 0:06:31.760 --> 0:06:35.160 the Serious Offenders Review Council, is that over fifty percent 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:39.159 of Aboriginal women. Yeah, there's a really high statistic of 0:06:39.279 --> 0:06:43.479 Aboriginal women who were part of that bracket. Yeah. 0:06:43.640 --> 0:06:46.240 No, you hear that type of stats a lot, and 0:06:46.520 --> 0:06:50.599 it's something that there's something broken, something that needs to 0:06:50.600 --> 0:06:53.960 be fixed. But that was the breakfast at Parliament House. 0:06:54.200 --> 0:06:56.560 Thank you very much for the invite. I enjoyed it 0:06:56.600 --> 0:06:58.920 and met a lot of interesting people there. They're very 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:02.560 passionate about getting the justice system right, which is always 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:05.479 you walk away a little bit inspired from that. The 0:07:05.560 --> 0:07:09.119 politicians said all the right thing. Hopefully the politicians deliver 0:07:09.160 --> 0:07:11.560 they're very good at saying the right things. It's a 0:07:11.600 --> 0:07:14.920 matter of them actually coming through with what they promised to. 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:19.880 Now I want to speak to you about your brother's death. 0:07:20.600 --> 0:07:24.200 And when I say death, he was murdered by Anthony Jones. 0:07:24.520 --> 0:07:27.680 Now Eden Brown and Anthony Jones might if they have 0:07:27.720 --> 0:07:29.960 been listening to the podcast would be for me because 0:07:30.440 --> 0:07:34.520 I've had Anthony Jones on the podcast. He's since been released. 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:40.680 When he murdered your brother Eden, that was in twenty ten. 0:07:41.280 --> 0:07:43.040 And he was released in June last year. 0:07:43.160 --> 0:07:45.640 Yeah, Now, before I got him on the podcast, and 0:07:45.680 --> 0:07:48.240 this is how we started to get in touch, was 0:07:49.000 --> 0:07:53.000 I didn't feel comfortable getting Anthony on the podcast to 0:07:53.120 --> 0:07:56.760 talk about talk about his life unless I spoke to 0:07:56.800 --> 0:08:01.040 the family Eden's family that me to you, and both 0:08:01.080 --> 0:08:04.080 spoke to you and we talked about it, and I 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:07.080 thought you were very generous in what you had to 0:08:07.120 --> 0:08:12.600 say and the feelings that you had about Anthony potentially 0:08:12.640 --> 0:08:13.800 turning his life around. 0:08:14.200 --> 0:08:17.360 So yeah, look, we're really grateful that he has turned 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:19.880 his life around. I guess there's a lot of families 0:08:19.920 --> 0:08:23.560 that don't have that. Whilst we've been very unlucky by 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:26.840 losing my brother we've been lucky in the sense that 0:08:26.880 --> 0:08:30.120 he has made something of himself and he has a 0:08:30.160 --> 0:08:34.240 plan to give back to the community and to I 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:37.000 guess turn his life into purpose now rather than just 0:08:37.000 --> 0:08:40.640 being an angry man, which is what he described in 0:08:40.720 --> 0:08:44.080 the podcast that he did. So yeah, really grateful in 0:08:44.120 --> 0:08:46.400 the sense that he you know, a lot of families 0:08:46.400 --> 0:08:48.559 don't get that. A lot of people get out of 0:08:48.640 --> 0:08:52.120 jail with no remorse, and so he certainly does have 0:08:52.120 --> 0:08:54.120 that remorse, which is which is a good thing. 0:08:55.240 --> 0:08:59.160 But I look, I understand that. But I say to you, 0:08:59.280 --> 0:09:02.240 full credit to you for the generosity of spirit that 0:09:02.559 --> 0:09:06.960 you could actually acknowledge that someone who's turning his life 0:09:06.960 --> 0:09:11.760 around someone that's responsible for murdering your brother. We talk, 0:09:11.880 --> 0:09:13.920 and this is not going to be the whole conversation, 0:09:14.040 --> 0:09:17.280 but I think it puts in perspective the type of 0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:20.040 work that you're doing, because I think if anyone's got 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:24.360 an understanding of the pain of crime, it's yourself first 0:09:24.400 --> 0:09:26.200 of all. Before we talk about it, and tell me 0:09:26.240 --> 0:09:28.360 what you remember of Eden as your brother. 0:09:29.160 --> 0:09:34.760 Ah, goofy, fun loving, very charismatic, life of the party, 0:09:35.480 --> 0:09:38.480 just a really good hearted person. He I know that 0:09:38.559 --> 0:09:41.920 Anthony in his podcast mentioned that he was like a 0:09:41.920 --> 0:09:46.199 big brother type to him, which is what Eden was like. 0:09:46.559 --> 0:09:50.160 He loved everybody and was not judgmental. I mean, Mum 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:52.280 came home one day and he had a homeless person 0:09:52.800 --> 0:09:55.000 at having a shower and he was cooking and lamb 0:09:55.040 --> 0:10:00.599 chops under the the grills, so he would honestly, I 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:03.400 could see how he would have gravitated to Aj and 0:10:03.600 --> 0:10:05.360 you know, wanted to help him, knowing that, you know, 0:10:05.440 --> 0:10:10.280 he'd had really crap upbringing, challenging upbringing, and so Eden 0:10:10.280 --> 0:10:12.760 would have been quite empathetic to that and wanted to 0:10:12.800 --> 0:10:14.760 help him. And you know, I could see that he 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:18.000 was wanting to be, you know, sort of a big 0:10:18.040 --> 0:10:19.520 brother to him. 0:10:19.840 --> 0:10:20.600 A role model. 0:10:21.160 --> 0:10:21.520 Yeah. 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:24.320 Yeah, well it's tragic how it turned out and then 0:10:24.440 --> 0:10:28.240 ended up in a situation that a party where he 0:10:28.280 --> 0:10:29.080 was stabbed to death. 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:35.160 Yeah, it was pretty crap. Yeah, I was. Actually I 0:10:35.200 --> 0:10:38.839 had a really really hard week and I my phone 0:10:38.880 --> 0:10:42.240 was going off at you know, all sorts of hours 0:10:42.240 --> 0:10:45.280 of the morning, and it was silent number, and my 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:49.000 phone actually went flat, and I'd left my car charger 0:10:49.040 --> 0:10:53.360 in my car, and it was like one or two 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:54.719 o'clock in the morning. And I thought, well, I'm not 0:10:54.760 --> 0:10:56.520 going to walk to my car at that time, and 0:10:57.120 --> 0:10:59.120 I thought of it. If it was a number that 0:10:59.160 --> 0:11:01.559 I knew that I would to answer it. But as 0:11:01.600 --> 0:11:04.079 it turns out, I was going to mom and Dad's 0:11:04.080 --> 0:11:06.880 house the next day and for lunch, and so I 0:11:06.920 --> 0:11:09.079 didn't actually get I had a big sleep in because 0:11:09.200 --> 0:11:12.920 I was just wrecked. Got in my car and plugged 0:11:12.920 --> 0:11:15.880 my phone in and it just went absolutely balistic. I 0:11:15.960 --> 0:11:17.800 had to pull over because I thought, oh, gosh, my 0:11:18.440 --> 0:11:21.640 phone's malfunctioning. And I'd just seen on the news that 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:25.560 two people had been stabbed, two separate incidents, since one 0:11:25.640 --> 0:11:29.240 was in the area that my brother lived in, and 0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:31.920 I was like, oh, those poor families. That's exactly what 0:11:31.920 --> 0:11:33.679 I was thinking, of those poor families. Which you do, 0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:35.680 you know, you on the news every morning, he hears 0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:40.559 something that's happened, and yeah, I pulled over, and I 0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:46.080 my heart just sank, and I got a text from 0:11:46.360 --> 0:11:51.439 my sibling who said, yeah, Eden's been killed. He's been stabbed. 0:11:52.480 --> 0:11:56.520 Drive safely, and so I don't really remember much about 0:11:56.600 --> 0:11:59.800 the drive. I probably shouldn't have been driving, to be honest, 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:03.360 but I kind of just went into full adrenaline mode. 0:12:04.080 --> 0:12:06.880 Apparently I rang my best friend screaming my head off, 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:08.800 and I don't remember that. So, like I said, I 0:12:08.840 --> 0:12:11.160 probably shouldn't have been driving, but I did get so 0:12:11.440 --> 0:12:15.320 I did get there safely. And yeah, and that's kind 0:12:15.320 --> 0:12:18.400 of where you just, yeah, the ship began. 0:12:19.040 --> 0:12:22.600 Yeah, well and is it's the start of a very 0:12:22.800 --> 0:12:26.960 long journey that continues to this day. But yeah, getting 0:12:26.960 --> 0:12:30.240 that type of that type of call and response, and 0:12:31.200 --> 0:12:33.559 how do you respond to that, you said you shouldn't 0:12:33.559 --> 0:12:35.480 be driving? What do you do? You've got the function? 0:12:35.600 --> 0:12:39.720 And I was very I remember being very careful, just thinking, God, 0:12:39.800 --> 0:12:42.920 what's just trying to process? So, as I said, I 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:45.400 did get there safely. But then you walk into a 0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:48.600 room of a whole family who's just you know, been 0:12:48.640 --> 0:12:54.960 at the hospital, just absolute science, and you know, the 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:57.800 one thing that came to my mind was like what 0:12:57.840 --> 0:13:01.760 do we do now? Like what what happens now? Like 0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:04.920 what do we do? And then we're all called into 0:13:05.120 --> 0:13:08.080 the police station the next day and with a whole 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:14.120 lot of detectives and police and they were very very helpful, 0:13:14.440 --> 0:13:16.880 but we're obviously all in a man shocked, We're like, 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:19.599 what the hell happened? We didn't even know a j 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:22.840 We didn't know. You know, there's a lot of what happened. 0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:28.160 Well, it's a world that people don't know and don't experience, 0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:31.880 and thank goodness for that that most people don't experience that, 0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:35.640 but it is something completely foreign. You're not dealing with police, 0:13:35.640 --> 0:13:38.320 and all of a sudden you've prone and very much 0:13:38.320 --> 0:13:43.280 involved in a murder investigation. So the process is trying 0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:46.560 to and now that you've been working in the criminal 0:13:46.679 --> 0:13:50.320 justice space, you get an more of an understanding. But 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:52.960 that at the time, that's the last thing you thought 0:13:53.000 --> 0:13:56.160 you'd be doing, seeing a police station talking to detectives 0:13:56.160 --> 0:13:57.400 about the murder of your brother. 0:13:57.760 --> 0:13:59.920 Yeah, you kind of it's that saying that you don't 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:02.839 think it's ever going to happen to you until it does. 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:06.560 And yeah, it was just there was more questions than answers, 0:14:06.640 --> 0:14:10.280 and obviously the police was still investigating things, so there 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:13.320 wasn't much that they could really tell us, and there 0:14:13.360 --> 0:14:15.160 was a lot of people who were just not speaking 0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:18.120 and they were still interviewing people and doing the whole 0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:21.000 process of what needs to be done to find out 0:14:21.000 --> 0:14:23.080 and get to the bottom. We're very lucky that we 0:14:23.400 --> 0:14:26.560 did get a dying declaration from Eden to tell us 0:14:26.920 --> 0:14:30.120 who it was. I wonder if we hadn't got that, 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:33.400 how messed up? More messed up? You know, I would 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:33.840 be well. 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:37.800 I suppose it gave you some form of answer or 0:14:37.840 --> 0:14:41.040 an understanding of what happened, And a lot of times 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:45.680 with murder investigations, there's no idea the initial stages. Anyway, 0:14:46.560 --> 0:14:49.440 you said that the police were good, interested in the 0:14:49.520 --> 0:14:53.800 perspective from a family member. What the type of things 0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:58.200 police can do to help in those situations? What was 0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:01.160 it about police that you thought they handled well well? 0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:04.360 They kept us informed every step of the way. They 0:15:04.520 --> 0:15:07.720 were obviously two years later we had the trial. We 0:15:07.760 --> 0:15:10.600 had two trials. The first trial was six you know, 0:15:10.600 --> 0:15:13.240 it was going to be six weeks long. We said 0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:15.480 that it could be up to that, so I agreed 0:15:15.520 --> 0:15:17.920 to do the first two weeks. My brother said he 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:19.800 would do the next two weeks because my brother and 0:15:19.880 --> 0:15:23.440 sister live overseas, and then should it continue, my sister 0:15:23.480 --> 0:15:26.400 said that she would fly down fly over as well. 0:15:26.520 --> 0:15:28.320 So it took the six weeks and then it was 0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:28.920 a hung drury. 0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:32.400 Yeah, that must have been hard because the whole process. 0:15:32.480 --> 0:15:35.720 I think people assume because we watch it on TV 0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:39.440 or crime shows on TV. If something happens, please have 0:15:39.520 --> 0:15:42.160 caught the person, then it's going to be resolved quickly. 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:46.320 But this goes over years. It's a long drawn out process. 0:15:46.680 --> 0:15:49.800 When did you find out that police had made the 0:15:49.880 --> 0:15:50.880 arrest of a j. 0:15:52.160 --> 0:15:55.000 They came to mum and dad's house. Yep, they found 0:15:55.080 --> 0:15:57.920 him in a nightclub and apparently the way Dad describes 0:15:57.920 --> 0:16:01.400 it is that he they had been under shaven and 0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:05.080 we're very very excited to let mum and dad know 0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:09.240 that they had found him because yeah, he went a well, 0:16:09.240 --> 0:16:13.600 I guess for two weeks, so that was concerning as 0:16:13.640 --> 0:16:18.080 well for us. So yeah, that was But in terms 0:16:18.120 --> 0:16:21.080 of going back to the police, they were obviously at 0:16:22.040 --> 0:16:26.960 shout out to Timpuli from d Way Police. He was 0:16:26.960 --> 0:16:31.320 there every day with the court case who was representing 0:16:31.360 --> 0:16:34.440 the family. So yeah, really really great support. We still 0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:35.880 speak to him to this day. 0:16:36.120 --> 0:16:38.240 That's good and I think that should be the type 0:16:38.280 --> 0:16:43.720 of relationship investigating police ap with family members have someone kill, 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:48.040 because it's intense. It's an intense, deeply emotional situation and 0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:50.480 if you've got the police officer that cares, that can 0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:52.520 make it make a difference, Well. 0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:54.160 I mean, who else do we have to go to? 0:16:54.360 --> 0:16:57.280 I mean, we have your storative Yeah, that's that was 0:16:57.360 --> 0:17:00.000 kind of our thinking, is we don't have any one 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:04.399 to go to for answers. And obviously, you know, eventually 0:17:04.480 --> 0:17:07.360 we had restorative justice and the DPP and stuff like that, 0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:12.560 but that didn't happen immediately, so there was no sort 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:17.239 of homicide counseling given to us immediately. We did get 0:17:17.320 --> 0:17:19.280 offered that a little bit further down the track, and 0:17:19.320 --> 0:17:24.120 I was like, well, you know, so those services are available, but. 0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:27.760 How did it make you feel when someone had actually 0:17:27.760 --> 0:17:30.520 been charged, When the police told you that they charged someone, 0:17:30.600 --> 0:17:34.200 What sort of emotions went through your heart and mind 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:38.080 at that stage? 0:17:38.600 --> 0:17:41.080 Well, we were still in shock, you know. Two weeks later, 0:17:41.200 --> 0:17:44.119 we were obviously happy that they had found him, but 0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:46.840 there was still so many questions. We didn't know who 0:17:46.880 --> 0:17:49.959 he was, you know, what happened. There was still that 0:17:50.000 --> 0:17:54.120 big question as to what happened. Because in Eden's Dye 0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:58.480 declaration he said, AJ did it and I think they'd 0:17:58.480 --> 0:17:59.960 asked him why did they do it? And he said 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:03.080 don't know, So it kind of makes sense now that 0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:06.399 like that. For us, it was like, well, what the 0:18:07.119 --> 0:18:10.359 what the heck happened? Like, how did that ererupt? You 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:14.639 know what? And why why did no one go to 0:18:14.680 --> 0:18:17.920 my brother's rescue? He literally had to drag himself up 0:18:18.680 --> 0:18:24.160 the street dying, bleeding to death and knock on someone's 0:18:24.240 --> 0:18:28.720 door window at two o'clock in the morning, which would 0:18:28.720 --> 0:18:31.080 have been extremely scary for that person who then went 0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:36.840 got his neighbor and then had to you know, thankfully 0:18:36.880 --> 0:18:39.040 those two guys came out and tried to stop the bleeding, 0:18:39.080 --> 0:18:43.000 called the ambulance. So why was he And you know, 0:18:43.040 --> 0:18:45.000 there was all these people in court as well who 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:47.080 had to who were horrified as well. There was a 0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:52.400 girl who drove past at that time and Aiden tried 0:18:52.400 --> 0:18:54.840 to flager down, but you know, the big burly guy, 0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:58.679 Aiden was really big, covered in blood, and I imagine 0:18:58.680 --> 0:19:00.439 there was a bit of a scatter of people around 0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:03.879 as well, and she immediately got home and rang the police. 0:19:03.920 --> 0:19:05.760 But she wasn't gonna. I wouldn't do this. 0:19:05.880 --> 0:19:09.320 I would not know, I can. 0:19:09.960 --> 0:19:12.520 Yeah, she was completely traumatized, had to come to court 0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:17.080 as well, and and so and of course the ambulance 0:19:17.119 --> 0:19:20.160 got there before the police, so the ambos couldn't get out. Yeah, 0:19:20.520 --> 0:19:25.280 they couldn't wait. They had to wait, so eventually they 0:19:25.280 --> 0:19:28.720 did come and then they Yeah, they got him in there, 0:19:28.760 --> 0:19:29.600 but yeah, he. 0:19:29.680 --> 0:19:32.760 Just how did it change you and the family when 0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:35.280 you had a family member murdered? 0:19:37.200 --> 0:19:41.160 Wow, well it changes your life forever. 0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:46.080 Yeah, you lose faith in humanity or I would imagine 0:19:46.080 --> 0:19:49.200 that the potentially could cause divisions in the family. It 0:19:49.280 --> 0:19:51.720 might bring you closer to give her probably a whole 0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:53.000 range of emotions. 0:19:54.119 --> 0:19:57.320 I think we all dealt with the grief in different ways. 0:19:57.880 --> 0:20:01.800 You know, you go through a whole stack of emotions 0:20:01.840 --> 0:20:09.280 like grief, loss, anger, but mostly bringing us together. Yeah. 0:20:09.520 --> 0:20:11.399 But I was just seeing my parents, which is the 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:13.479 most horrible I know. 0:20:14.720 --> 0:20:18.200 And I'm apologize for bringing this up, but I think 0:20:18.240 --> 0:20:22.600 it's important people understand what really happens with crime, the 0:20:22.640 --> 0:20:25.159 depth of emotion that kicks in. And it break my 0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:29.120 heart when I spoke to you talking about getting aj 0:20:29.320 --> 0:20:31.720 On and you said, look, I can deal with him 0:20:31.760 --> 0:20:33.880 coming on and if he's turned his life around. But 0:20:35.040 --> 0:20:37.439 to this day, my parents are still broken by the 0:20:37.480 --> 0:20:41.080 fact that their son's been murdered. Yeah, we're talking from 0:20:41.119 --> 0:20:44.959 twenty ten to present day, and they're still carry carrying 0:20:44.960 --> 0:20:45.320 that plan. 0:20:46.320 --> 0:20:49.440 Yeah. I mean no parents should have to, you know, 0:20:49.560 --> 0:20:50.600 better with their child, right. 0:20:50.840 --> 0:20:56.200 Yeah. Yeah, you're very much involved in their advocacy side 0:20:56.240 --> 0:20:58.960 of things, and we will talk in depth about that. 0:20:59.720 --> 0:21:02.920 From a court's perspective, do you think the needs of 0:21:03.000 --> 0:21:06.680 the victim's families properly catered for? Where you kept informed 0:21:06.680 --> 0:21:09.000 on what was going on? You said that you had 0:21:09.400 --> 0:21:11.560 a good police officer that was there the whole time, 0:21:11.600 --> 0:21:15.439 which I'm sure helped. Is a system set up to 0:21:16.600 --> 0:21:20.200 acknowledge the pain and the trauma that the victim's families 0:21:20.240 --> 0:21:20.840 are going through. 0:21:22.080 --> 0:21:25.720 I mean, there are homicide services. Whether my family wanted 0:21:25.760 --> 0:21:28.480 to reach out to those or not was a big 0:21:28.560 --> 0:21:31.679 question mark. So I feel like, yeah, it was like 0:21:31.960 --> 0:21:33.760 I guess that was what I was saying, is you know, 0:21:34.119 --> 0:21:37.080 when we all found out, We're sitting around the lounge room, 0:21:37.080 --> 0:21:40.280 We're like, well, what happens next? You know, there was 0:21:40.359 --> 0:21:44.280 not it kind of had to figure that out. Yeah, 0:21:44.119 --> 0:21:47.280 but at that particular time, the police were all investigating and. 0:21:47.320 --> 0:21:47.840 Things like that. 0:21:47.960 --> 0:21:51.600 So yeah, I feel there are services out there and 0:21:51.640 --> 0:21:54.320 some good ones, but yeah, we just didn't really know 0:21:54.359 --> 0:21:55.800 about them at that particular time. 0:21:56.840 --> 0:22:00.320 What about the length of time that court matters, matthers taken. 0:22:00.400 --> 0:22:03.480 There's a whole range of reasons why justice can be slow, 0:22:03.520 --> 0:22:08.320 but I think it's ridiculously slow in some situations. I mean, 0:22:08.680 --> 0:22:11.240 AJ was charged by what you said, So the two 0:22:11.280 --> 0:22:14.280