WEBVTT - Episode 21: Concrete Evidence 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:04.640 Listeners are advised that this podcast series Bromwin contains course 0:00:04.760 --> 0:00:08.800 language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to 0:00:08.840 --> 0:00:42.680 you by me Headley Thomas and The Australian. It's time 0:00:42.840 --> 0:00:46.199 now to explain broadly where the rest of this series 0:00:46.320 --> 0:00:46.800 is going. 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:49.000 You are going to hear. 0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:53.000 More about John's actions in relation to money and five 0:00:53.120 --> 0:00:57.000 remarkable days of public hearings at the inquest in Lismore 0:00:57.120 --> 0:01:01.320 in two thousand and two into the presumed death Boman Joy. 0:01:01.080 --> 0:01:03.040 Winfield will be reconstructed. 0:01:03.960 --> 0:01:07.240 With the reconstruction, it will seem to listeners as if 0:01:07.319 --> 0:01:11.840 they are inside the courtroom where key witnesses were questioned under. 0:01:11.640 --> 0:01:13.399 Oath while John looked on. 0:01:14.680 --> 0:01:18.800 You'll hear how the then Deputy State Coroner, Karl Milavanovitch 0:01:19.000 --> 0:01:22.960 viewed the case along with the police officer who presented 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:28.720 the evidence, Matt Fordham. Karl Milavanovitch's recommendation to the Office 0:01:28.720 --> 0:01:32.479 of the Director of Public Prosecutions to prosecute John Winfield 0:01:32.480 --> 0:01:36.040 for murder was rejected by the DPP, and we're going 0:01:36.080 --> 0:01:40.240 to look at that decision too. After the DPP had 0:01:40.319 --> 0:01:44.080 confirmed its position in two thousand and three, not much 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:48.600 happened in Roman's case until the investigation from two thousand 0:01:48.600 --> 0:01:51.360 and nine, led by the then Detective. 0:01:50.880 --> 0:01:52.720 Inspector George Radmore. 0:01:53.120 --> 0:01:57.040 With more detectives and resources at his disposal than Glenn 0:01:57.120 --> 0:02:01.440 Taylor was afforded. George Radmore ran a signalant and serious 0:02:01.520 --> 0:02:04.640 inquiry and it looked at some important new angles. 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:06.920 Finally we'll draw. 0:02:06.760 --> 0:02:10.280 To a conclusion that is the plan at this early 0:02:10.320 --> 0:02:12.639 stage of the third season of Bromwin. 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:15.520 When I spoke to Maddie a. 0:02:15.520 --> 0:02:18.520 Year ago at a cafe in Circular Key in Sydney, 0:02:18.919 --> 0:02:22.080 I volunteered to her that this case might span a 0:02:22.120 --> 0:02:27.959 total of just eight episodes. Have you had to think 0:02:28.000 --> 0:02:33.880 about the kinds of aspects of this that you feel that. 0:02:33.880 --> 0:02:37.680 You're equipped to subject to truth here, I'm happy. 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:41.600 To do anything, really and yeah, I'm open to it all. 0:02:42.720 --> 0:02:45.640 But something we have discovered while having the privilege of 0:02:45.680 --> 0:02:51.919 investigating Broman's disappearance is that things change quickly. Unforeseen events 0:02:52.120 --> 0:02:55.480 like new evidence and new witnesses can turn even a 0:02:55.480 --> 0:02:59.799 well laid plan on its head a new development. For example, 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:03.640 in the Reignited investigation by police from the New South 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:08.320 Wales Unsolved Homicide Unit, they told Andy Reid back in 0:03:08.400 --> 0:03:12.240 May twenty twenty four that they were essentially done, that 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:15.480 there was nothing more they could do without fresh leads 0:03:15.480 --> 0:03:20.040 into Broman's disappearance. As a result of what then started 0:03:20.040 --> 0:03:24.399 to emerge in the early episodes of Bromwin, they decided 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:27.400 that they were not done after all, and they've been 0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:32.440 taking statements from key people. Now for the first time 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:35.760 in this series, let's go to the longest and the 0:03:35.800 --> 0:03:39.760 most compelling statement in the bundle of statements organized by 0:03:39.840 --> 0:03:44.920 the detective Sergeant Glen Taylor during his investigation. It's the 0:03:44.960 --> 0:03:48.480 statement of Glenn himself and it runs to one hundred 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:53.600 and twenty pages. Glenn signed it on October thirteenth, nineteen 0:03:53.720 --> 0:03:57.240 ninety nine. It is a summary of the evidence of 0:03:57.520 --> 0:04:01.680 every witness. It also just scribes a lot of information 0:04:01.840 --> 0:04:03.760 which Glenn discovered along the way. 0:04:04.760 --> 0:04:06.080 Glenn had made a. 0:04:06.000 --> 0:04:10.080 Simple inquiry with the Road Transport Authority in nineteen ninety 0:04:10.160 --> 0:04:14.760 eight about Bromwin's driver's license. The records revealed that her 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:20.640 license had expired on July twenty nine, nineteen ninety three. 0:04:19.880 --> 0:04:21.440 And that it was not renewed. 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:26.039 A known fact like that should have been uncovered by 0:04:26.080 --> 0:04:29.919 the initial investigation in nineteen ninety three, but there's no 0:04:30.120 --> 0:04:34.800 record from then that any such inquiry was made. Glenn 0:04:34.880 --> 0:04:38.840 also checked with Medicare and their staff confirmed that there 0:04:38.880 --> 0:04:43.120 had been no claim by Bromwin. After her disappearance, he 0:04:43.160 --> 0:04:47.240 obtained records from the Commonwealth Bank. The last transaction on 0:04:47.279 --> 0:04:49.839 the account that Bromen used for her day to day 0:04:49.880 --> 0:04:53.840 expenses was a withdrawal of seventy dollars on May fourteen, 0:04:54.040 --> 0:04:59.360 nineteen ninety three. This account also received the single parent 0:04:59.480 --> 0:05:03.960 pension from Centilink. Back then it was known as the 0:05:04.040 --> 0:05:06.920 Department of Social Security, but we are going to call 0:05:06.960 --> 0:05:11.880 it Centerlink because that's how everybody knows it now. Bromman 0:05:11.960 --> 0:05:15.160 had been entitled to it since her separation from John 0:05:15.320 --> 0:05:19.880 in late March. She also received a smaller family payment 0:05:19.920 --> 0:05:25.240 for the children. After Broman's disappearance, there were five automatic 0:05:25.320 --> 0:05:29.720 weekly payments, but then nothing further. After June twenty four, 0:05:30.000 --> 0:05:34.520 nineteen ninety three. The balance of her account was one thousand, 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:39.640 five hundred and eight dollars and this wasn't touched. Another 0:05:39.760 --> 0:05:43.280 account in her maiden name of Bromwin Reid held three 0:05:43.360 --> 0:05:49.320 hundred and eighty three dollars. Glenn Taylor made inquiries with Centilink, 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:53.080 and he spoke to an employee there, Francis McNamara, who 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:57.800 went through Broman's files. Mister McNamara told the detective that 0:05:57.880 --> 0:06:02.520 Broman had applied for child old support assessment on Monday 0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:07.880 May tenth. This application was forwarded to the child support 0:06:07.960 --> 0:06:12.320 agency on the same day, six days before Bromwin vanished. 0:06:13.480 --> 0:06:16.839 I've asked Glenn Taylor to read paragraph one hundred and 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:20.360 eighty one from page ninety of his police statement of 0:06:20.440 --> 0:06:21.640 nineteen ninety nine. 0:06:22.920 --> 0:06:27.919 Inquiries with the child support agency in Sydney confirmed that 0:06:28.040 --> 0:06:32.160 a claim had been made by Bromwin Winfield for payments 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:35.640 to be made by her husband for. 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:36.960 The support of the children. 0:06:38.240 --> 0:06:42.560 A document was located which sets out the proposed arrangement. 0:06:43.600 --> 0:06:48.400 This order was apparently never acted upon, as Bromwin had 0:06:48.440 --> 0:06:52.279 gone missing. On sixteenth May nineteen ninety three. 0:06:53.640 --> 0:06:57.880 At the federal government's Child Support Agency, Bromwin had been 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:02.640 allocated a case number three two three eight two six. 0:07:03.760 --> 0:07:07.760 A child support registrar wrote to Bromwin advising. 0:07:07.760 --> 0:07:10.560 We have accepted your application for an assessment of how 0:07:10.640 --> 0:07:14.680 much child support mister Jonathan Winfield should pay you. Set 0:07:14.680 --> 0:07:17.360 out below are the amounts we expect to collect for you. 0:07:18.280 --> 0:07:21.520 Please note that we cannot guarantee payment. We can only 0:07:21.560 --> 0:07:23.800 pay you what we collect from the paying parent. 0:07:25.160 --> 0:07:28.360 John was up for an initial payment of six hundred 0:07:28.400 --> 0:07:31.320 and seven dollars because it was determined that he had 0:07:31.360 --> 0:07:36.560 owed Bromwyn money since April twelve, nineteen ninety three, He 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:39.520 would need to find two hundred and thirty one dollars 0:07:39.600 --> 0:07:43.280 a month for his regular payment to her. To be clear, 0:07:43.680 --> 0:07:46.080 I want to stress that this payment, which was to 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:48.600 come out of John's pocket and go to Bromwin to 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:52.320 help feed and clothe the children, was separate from the 0:07:52.360 --> 0:07:57.560 sole parent pension. The sole parent pension came from Centerlink, 0:07:57.920 --> 0:08:02.239 not from John. Are of course eligible for the sole 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:05.200 parent pension too if the female parent. 0:08:05.000 --> 0:08:05.840 Is not around. 0:08:06.800 --> 0:08:10.960 Glen Taylor discovered that the weekly sole parent pension payments 0:08:11.040 --> 0:08:14.600 BI center Link to Broman's bank were cut off, and 0:08:14.720 --> 0:08:19.800 this had happened just sixteen days after Broman's disappearance. Here's 0:08:19.920 --> 0:08:23.840 Glen Taylor again reading from his nineteen ninety nine statement. 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:25.520 Missus Bromwin. 0:08:25.600 --> 0:08:31.560 Winfield's husband Jonathan attended the Bawonous Social Security Office on 0:08:31.720 --> 0:08:36.520 second of Gen nineteen ninety three to advise that Missus 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:41.280 bromwin Winfield had disappeared, and the sole parent pension was 0:08:41.320 --> 0:08:42.680 suspended on that day. 0:08:44.080 --> 0:08:46.640 Records revealed that there. 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:50.120 Has not been a further claim or any payment since 0:08:50.200 --> 0:08:55.320 the payments were suspended. The pension was canceled on twenty 0:08:55.360 --> 0:08:59.719 fifth to Gen nineteen ninety three, when it was determined 0:09:00.360 --> 0:09:04.240 there were no children in brom and Winfield's care as 0:09:04.280 --> 0:09:10.360 another person had applied for a sole parent pension, Jonathan Winfield, 0:09:10.679 --> 0:09:15.120 claiming the children to be in his care. Brom and 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:19.640 Winfield's family Allowance payment was also canceled from that date. 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:24.560 Let's rehash the timeline again. There's a lot of key 0:09:24.640 --> 0:09:29.840 dates and they can be confusing. John reported Broman missing 0:09:30.080 --> 0:09:34.120 on May twenty seven. That was eleven days after he 0:09:34.200 --> 0:09:37.320 says she walked out of the house on Sandstone Crescent. 0:09:38.200 --> 0:09:42.040 John told Detective Sergeant Graham Diskin back then that Broman 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:44.880 was aware that he would take the girls to Sydney 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:47.880 for eight to ten days while she enjoyed what he 0:09:47.960 --> 0:09:52.360 called her break from the kids. But just sixteen days 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:57.360 after Broman had purportedly left and with the possibility, according 0:09:57.360 --> 0:10:01.400 to John's version, that she should return any day, John 0:10:01.520 --> 0:10:05.679 went to the Centerlink office in Ballina to suspend Bromin's 0:10:05.679 --> 0:10:09.199 single parent pension and have it diverted to his bank 0:10:09.200 --> 0:10:13.320 account instead. It took just six days from when John 0:10:13.360 --> 0:10:16.240 reported his wife missing for him to get the payments 0:10:16.240 --> 0:10:20.199 to her cut and channel to him. Here's Andy Reid 0:10:20.480 --> 0:10:23.400 talking to me via zoom from a building site. 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:26.560 If your story was that your wife walked down the 0:10:26.600 --> 0:10:29.280 door and had a change to go away for a while, 0:10:29.360 --> 0:10:31.880 why within about three weeks of her doing that, did 0:10:31.920 --> 0:10:35.000 you go and change all monastery payments for the kids 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:37.760 and get your name so they came in hers. 0:10:38.880 --> 0:10:42.400 Now Here is Michelle with Andy revisiting the same issue 0:10:42.440 --> 0:10:44.520 with me in the lounge room of their home in 0:10:44.559 --> 0:10:45.080 the Shire. 0:10:46.000 --> 0:10:47.440 That's what worries me. 0:10:47.600 --> 0:10:52.360 How quickly he went and changed the shell a Link payments. 0:10:52.679 --> 0:10:54.760 Oh, she told me she's only going on a break. 0:10:55.400 --> 0:10:59.280 Why would you go there and change everything to get 0:10:59.360 --> 0:11:00.080 money for the kid. 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:03.880 For someone that's supposedly just gone off for a few 0:11:03.920 --> 0:11:06.880 days to get a head clear, right, Why have you 0:11:07.000 --> 0:11:09.800 then gone and demanded that she'd be taken off the 0:11:10.400 --> 0:11:13.400 single pension And how can someone else do that? She 0:11:13.440 --> 0:11:15.160 hasn't got the kids, so you can't let her get 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:17.000 any money from now on. I've got the kids, so 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:18.120 you've got to give me the money. 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:20.560 Well sort of proof, did you're going to tell me? 0:11:20.679 --> 0:11:24.080 He walked into a Social Security place and said, my 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:27.880 life's getting a Social Security and she's. 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:30.760 Not here anymore. Oh okay, sir, you. 0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:32.200 Know how do you do that? 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:37.600 Something else became evident from the files. Even though the 0:11:37.800 --> 0:11:41.920 Center Link payments to Broman were canceled but not by Bromman, 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:46.240 it appeared that on April twenty four, nineteen ninety six, 0:11:46.840 --> 0:11:51.800 three years after Broman's disappearance, her address four Centerlink records, 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:55.240 was changed from Lennox Head to her old address in 0:11:55.280 --> 0:11:57.120 the Shire and then we'd leave. 0:11:57.160 --> 0:12:01.600 Another few years later, on Bromman's birthday, someone's gone to 0:12:02.080 --> 0:12:05.840 the Department of Social Services and tried to change Broman's 0:12:05.920 --> 0:12:10.120 address back to where they lived in eighty eight behind 0:12:10.160 --> 0:12:11.200 the takeaway shop. 0:12:10.960 --> 0:12:12.920 In the flat. What would the motive be for that 0:12:13.120 --> 0:12:13.760 he's done it. 0:12:14.440 --> 0:12:16.959 Someone's turned around and they're trying to make out that 0:12:18.080 --> 0:12:21.440 Bromin's still around by asking for a request to change 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:23.280 of address and tried to put it in the old 0:12:23.280 --> 0:12:25.040 address back down here where she used to live. 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:26.000 Who's done that. 0:12:26.240 --> 0:12:28.720 It's not Bromlin or was it someone trying to make. 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:31.960 Out Someone's trying to make out it was Bromwin? Why 0:12:32.720 --> 0:12:38.520 changing her address. Glen Taylor's plan as his investigation unfolded 0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:41.600 through the second half of nineteen ninety eight and into 0:12:41.720 --> 0:12:44.760 nineteen ninety nine was to put all the evidence in 0:12:44.760 --> 0:12:49.480 front of a coroner. Glenn believed then that an experienced 0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:53.800 coroner would recommend a prosecution, but it would take time 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:58.280 for the inquest to be scheduled. Before that happened, John 0:12:58.440 --> 0:13:03.719 was growing increasingly unhappy. Glenn Taylor and Wayne Tembe were 0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:09.000 talking to so many people, family members, friends, neighbors, workmates. 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:14.240 John telephone to complain about it. That phone call, do 0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:14.840 you remember. 0:13:14.880 --> 0:13:18.840 He was upset that we were interviewing people that he knew, 0:13:19.400 --> 0:13:24.760 his daughter Jodie, his brother Peter, various people that he knew, 0:13:25.240 --> 0:13:29.520 everyone we thought relevant to the investigation. And I think 0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:32.480 he was believing the word was getting out that the 0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:35.040 police were looking at going to try to charge him 0:13:35.080 --> 0:13:35.640 with murder. 0:13:36.160 --> 0:13:37.320 All we were doing at. 0:13:37.200 --> 0:13:40.760 That stage we had reported her suspected death to the coroner. 0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:44.400 He was quite upset that people were being interviewed He 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:47.640 wanted basically just to keep it all everything quiet. He 0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:51.880 was saying, Okay, the problem went away in about mid 0:13:52.000 --> 0:13:55.520 nineteen ninety three, nothing had been again looked at now 0:13:55.679 --> 0:13:59.560 five years, things had all gone quiet, and he was 0:13:59.679 --> 0:14:02.800 probably hoping that would remain that way and stay quite 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:06.640 Suddenly we're out there. He had contacted me and he 0:14:06.760 --> 0:14:11.600 said he was agitated and said, you're going to find 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:14.960 out she's running around with some rich sugar daddy somewhere 0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:18.760 and she's living elsewhere. And he was just upset that 0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:23.320 he was just going along along like it's just a 0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:26.400 missing person. No one's looking at it him, or it's 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:30.480 all going quiet. We knew bought at that stage. He 0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:34.720 went down to the Senate link and got Broman's pension 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:40.200 cut off. He's then applied for the pension himself to 0:14:40.200 --> 0:14:43.920 look after the kids. He's gone in and now he's 0:14:43.960 --> 0:14:47.600 getting a government pension payment as a single parent. 0:14:48.200 --> 0:14:51.240 And she's only been missing two or three weeks. 0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:53.520 At this stage, it's like he's saying, oh, she's going 0:14:53.560 --> 0:14:56.440 away for two weeks, and here it is shortly after 0:14:56.520 --> 0:15:01.080 two weeks. He's already made it just decision that she's 0:15:01.120 --> 0:15:04.840 permanently disappeared, not coming back to the kids, and got 0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:07.520 her pension cut off. And then he's applied and got 0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:11.200 the pension himself, so she had then come back to 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:16.800 the house and he's applied for sole custody of the 0:15:16.880 --> 0:15:20.880 kids and now and receipt of the single parent pension 0:15:21.360 --> 0:15:26.160 that Broban was receiving. Michelle said, they questioned him about this. 0:15:26.800 --> 0:15:28.040 I did that to flush her out. 0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:53.200 That was the words he told them. 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:57.560 This investigative podcast series was not meant to grow this big. 0:15:58.280 --> 0:16:02.640 It has taken many moreses than I had anticipated to 0:16:02.680 --> 0:16:06.280 do justice to the sheer volume of material and evidence 0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:10.880 to convey the accounts of new witnesses who have come forward, 0:16:11.240 --> 0:16:13.800 people like Judy Singh. 0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:16.400 And he kind of looked up this night and I 0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:20.280 saw this what looked to be like a mummy in 0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:23.520 the back of the car, and I thought, well, even 0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:27.640 if he was taking out belongings, you wouldn't make it 0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:29.040 look like a body. 0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:34.160 To detour into unexpected places to talk to people like 0:16:34.360 --> 0:16:35.880 Sonya Lee. 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:40.280 She would have been fourteen when their relationship started. 0:16:40.920 --> 0:16:41.479 Fifteen. 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:47.119 As it progressed, if the girls need to question anyone's truths, 0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:55.760 his truths, start questioning them poor crystal as a human 0:16:56.000 --> 0:16:57.600 How can you put somebody through. 0:16:57.440 --> 0:17:03.440 That and to expel law in minute detail. Some discrepancies 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:08.359 and omissions in John's versions, particularly from his nineteen ninety 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:11.600 eight interview with Glenn Taylor, which was recorded in the 0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:12.800 Ballana Police Station. 0:17:14.359 --> 0:17:17.199 All I know is it was dark, you know, it 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:20.040 was probably at least an hour or maybe an hour 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:23.959 and a half after the plane landed, whatever time that was, 0:17:24.640 --> 0:17:26.760 and that was dark, because I remember I got off 0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:27.720 the plane in the dark. 0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:32.600 It was two phone calls, mate, Yeah, apparently one at 0:17:33.080 --> 0:17:35.919 six point fifty three pm and one at seven oh 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:36.639 six pm. 0:17:38.440 --> 0:17:42.280 This in turn led to a more accurate understanding of 0:17:42.320 --> 0:17:46.160 the likely timeline, as well as who made key telephone 0:17:46.160 --> 0:17:49.960 calls on the last night Bromen was seen. May sixteen, 0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:54.840 nineteen ninety three. There's our discovery of documents going back 0:17:54.960 --> 0:17:58.200 thirty one years showing in black and white the timing 0:17:58.240 --> 0:18:02.280 of approvals by council and spaces for two concrete paws 0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:05.919 at a building site where John Winfield was helping build 0:18:05.960 --> 0:18:08.959 a house before and after Bromin disappeared. 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:12.480 That's the cup of shoot of the file, and then 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:16.800 it's just got the dates and times of when various 0:18:16.840 --> 0:18:22.159 inspections were done Thursday, thirteenth of May. The Garash and. 0:18:22.200 --> 0:18:26.080 Front Porch slabs were given the tick of approval to 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:29.960 be able at the poll, which we believe from compensations 0:18:29.960 --> 0:18:32.800 with Glenn was fought on the Tuesday of the Wednesday 0:18:32.840 --> 0:18:33.760 the following week. 0:18:35.200 --> 0:18:39.159 When aligned with John's unusual actions in driving back to 0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:44.000 the Shire on Monday May seventeen, Those newly discovered documents 0:18:44.080 --> 0:18:47.920 have aroused suspicions over whether Bromin's grave was made at 0:18:47.960 --> 0:18:53.320 that property in the shire shortly before the paws of Concrete. 0:18:53.520 --> 0:18:56.520 We do not know what else the police might be doing, 0:18:56.960 --> 0:19:00.560 nor do we need to know, but are properly and 0:19:00.640 --> 0:19:05.480 professionally organized search of the property at Illawong is necessary 0:19:05.520 --> 0:19:08.480 in our view, which brings us to what you're about 0:19:08.560 --> 0:19:11.960 to hear in this episode and how the lawyer Karina 0:19:12.000 --> 0:19:15.200 Berger came up with a sensible pathway over a couple 0:19:15.200 --> 0:19:18.199 of days of brainstorming and filming at my house in 0:19:18.240 --> 0:19:22.360 Brisbane with the former detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor and Maddie Walsh, 0:19:22.560 --> 0:19:26.280 Annie Reid, his wife Michelle, and my friends and colleagues 0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:28.280 Claire Harvey and Matt Condon. 0:19:29.440 --> 0:19:30.840 Can I just interrupt quickly? 0:19:32.040 --> 0:19:34.399 You were behind the scenes as we mark the start 0:19:34.440 --> 0:19:39.119 of season three of Bromwin. We've been filming three videos 0:19:39.119 --> 0:19:42.520 for subscribers, more than an hour and a half of 0:19:42.640 --> 0:19:45.679 content to deep die of Bromwin's case with some of 0:19:45.720 --> 0:19:48.000 the most knowledgeable and helpful people I know. 0:19:49.040 --> 0:19:49.920 We're rolling now. 0:19:50.960 --> 0:19:55.080 That's Bianca far Marcus. In earlier episodes you heard her 0:19:55.160 --> 0:19:58.320 as a voice actor reading some of Bromwin's letters. 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:02.600 When we moved to Lennox Head, I was even more lonely. 0:20:03.480 --> 0:20:07.200 The house that was built became John's castle in my prison. 0:20:09.000 --> 0:20:12.280 Our colleague and friend has also consented to being wrapped 0:20:12.320 --> 0:20:15.480 in sheets and bundled into the back seat, as well 0:20:15.520 --> 0:20:18.840 as the boot of an exf Ford Falcon as we've 0:20:18.960 --> 0:20:23.200 reconstructed what witness Judy Singh says she saw late one 0:20:23.320 --> 0:20:25.280 night in May nineteen ninety three. 0:20:26.040 --> 0:20:28.080 Are you happy with the place one of these marcro books. 0:20:28.680 --> 0:20:33.520 There's Claire Harvey, the Australian's editorial director. We talk a 0:20:33.560 --> 0:20:37.120 lot about Bromwin and other cold cases from the earlier 0:20:37.160 --> 0:20:40.119 stage when I'm trying to work out whether there's potential 0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:43.360 for one to be solved, and then during the investigation 0:20:43.640 --> 0:20:48.119 and storytelling as the podcast gathers momentum. Claire is like 0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:51.440 a firm but pretty cool school teacher who keeps us 0:20:51.440 --> 0:20:52.600 focused in class. 0:20:53.560 --> 0:20:54.840 We'll get it in the works. 0:20:55.760 --> 0:20:59.360 Kristin Amiot is a guru behind the scenes of these productions. 0:21:00.160 --> 0:21:06.600 Organization and logistics, even dreaded spreadsheets are her specialty. How well, there, 0:21:07.640 --> 0:21:11.119 that's Sean Callanan, who creates many of the brilliant graphics 0:21:11.119 --> 0:21:15.000 you've seen at our Bronwyn podcast dot com website. He 0:21:15.080 --> 0:21:18.920 flies drones and shoots award winning photographs and video too. 0:21:19.720 --> 0:21:22.040 Another thing just to be careful of, Glenn is tapping 0:21:22.119 --> 0:21:22.520 the table. 0:21:23.720 --> 0:21:27.239 Claire is giving the former detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor a 0:21:27.280 --> 0:21:30.639 friendly lesson about what happens when he unwittingly lets his 0:21:30.800 --> 0:21:34.080 hand with its wristwatch make contact with the timber table 0:21:34.200 --> 0:21:39.639 during an interview. The noise is distracting, the microphones are sensitive. 0:21:40.480 --> 0:21:42.240 You're welcome to have your hand up there, but just that. 0:21:42.240 --> 0:21:43.399 What we'll be able to hear it. 0:21:43.600 --> 0:21:48.880 Okay, sorry to blink o, poor good. 0:21:49.200 --> 0:21:49.600 Okay. 0:21:50.880 --> 0:21:54.440 And here's the mild mannered, eagle eyed professional film producer 0:21:54.560 --> 0:22:00.760 Jonathan Barjome, who leads a video team. 0:21:59.000 --> 0:22:02.280 One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight nineteen. 0:22:03.320 --> 0:22:07.280 The interviews are usually much smaller events, featuring only me, 0:22:07.560 --> 0:22:10.960 the interviewee, and a low key microphone with no cameras. 0:22:11.960 --> 0:22:14.800 Most people are a lot more candid when the only 0:22:14.840 --> 0:22:18.679 thing being recorded is their voice for audio. But for 0:22:18.720 --> 0:22:22.440 a short time, this team of behind the scenes professionals 0:22:22.480 --> 0:22:27.440 is standing around a dining table. The first podcast episode 0:22:27.440 --> 0:22:30.159 of season three wasn't going to start like this, but 0:22:30.280 --> 0:22:33.280 a special thing happened during the shoot in Brisbane. 0:22:33.720 --> 0:22:35.119 It was a light bulb moment. 0:22:36.600 --> 0:22:39.359 Karina is a lawyer who left an important job for 0:22:39.440 --> 0:22:43.200 the Australian Government Solicitor in Canberra to spend more time 0:22:43.240 --> 0:22:46.560 at home with her young children, and with some spare 0:22:46.600 --> 0:22:48.880 time on her hands, she got in touch to offer 0:22:48.920 --> 0:22:51.040 to help in the Bromwin podcast series. 0:22:51.680 --> 0:22:53.160 She's come to Brisbane. 0:22:52.760 --> 0:22:55.600 To meet my colleagues as well as Andy and Michelle Reid, 0:22:55.840 --> 0:22:59.479 Mattie Walsh, Glenn Taylor and others, and it led to 0:22:59.520 --> 0:23:03.800 asticated strategy to try to find Bromwin's remains if they 0:23:03.840 --> 0:23:06.879 are indeed beneath the slab of house in a place 0:23:06.920 --> 0:23:10.600 called Illawong, near where Bromwin grew up in the shire. 0:23:11.680 --> 0:23:15.320 Now here is the formidable Claire again Green. 0:23:15.359 --> 0:23:17.159 I'm going to start with you and talk about the 0:23:17.240 --> 0:23:20.840 house at Illawall. This is where we ended season two. 0:23:22.040 --> 0:23:26.159 In that episode the twentieth in the Bromwin investigation, I 0:23:26.280 --> 0:23:29.399 sat in the passenger seat of Andy's near new car 0:23:29.760 --> 0:23:34.320 which was briefly parked outside the house at Illawong. Andy 0:23:34.440 --> 0:23:38.119 was driving and Maddie was in the back. Let's go 0:23:38.200 --> 0:23:42.119 forward and do you too, Annie, as you look at 0:23:42.119 --> 0:23:47.440 it again, now, what's your view about the logistics and 0:23:47.520 --> 0:23:50.679 the feasibility of the plausibility of what we're talking about. 0:23:51.480 --> 0:23:53.840 John could have very easily backed the car up over 0:23:53.880 --> 0:23:56.160 there that true wouldn't have been there, hardly anyone would 0:23:56.200 --> 0:23:59.480 have been around, and then you would have just taken 0:23:59.520 --> 0:24:03.879 around of the roller straight across the ground there and 0:24:03.920 --> 0:24:07.800 then pulled the slab on top. So it's backfield color right, 0:24:08.119 --> 0:24:09.320 See the land falls away. 0:24:10.440 --> 0:24:12.600 Can you imagine if someone came up to your door 0:24:12.680 --> 0:24:14.080 and told you this may be. 0:24:14.960 --> 0:24:20.000 A person underneath your proud geor how would you even 0:24:20.040 --> 0:24:20.720 approach that. 0:24:23.000 --> 0:24:26.440 Illawong is, of course in the Sutherland Shire, in Sydney South. 0:24:26.720 --> 0:24:29.439 It's a long way from Lennox Head, but it's where 0:24:29.520 --> 0:24:32.440 our focus has come at the end of season two. 0:24:32.480 --> 0:24:35.080 As we start the work on season three, can you 0:24:35.080 --> 0:24:37.480 talk to me about why this particular house in il 0:24:37.520 --> 0:24:39.600 Along is something that you and heavily have come to 0:24:39.600 --> 0:24:40.680 focus so closely on. 0:24:41.040 --> 0:24:43.160 Well, Claire, I think when we step back and look 0:24:43.160 --> 0:24:45.520 at all of the evidence that's been gathered by the 0:24:45.560 --> 0:24:48.879 police and in the coronial investigation, and combine that with 0:24:48.920 --> 0:24:52.560 the information that's come out during the podcast, there are 0:24:52.600 --> 0:24:56.359 factors that may tend to suggest that Bronmin's remains maybe 0:24:56.400 --> 0:24:57.200 at that location. 0:24:58.880 --> 0:25:01.199 Karina has been a great help to me and to 0:25:01.280 --> 0:25:06.119 this investigation since she volunteered her time and expertise. She 0:25:06.280 --> 0:25:09.960 is eternally curious about Roman's case, and. 0:25:09.920 --> 0:25:11.800 We can start to put together a bit of a 0:25:11.920 --> 0:25:16.440 possible theory about what might have happened here. And if 0:25:16.440 --> 0:25:20.640 we start with John's very sudden departure from Lennox Head 0:25:20.880 --> 0:25:23.520