1
00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:04,640
Speaker 1: Listeners are advised that this podcast series Bromwin contains course

2
00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:08,800
Speaker 1: language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to

3
00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:42,680
Speaker 1: you by me Headley Thomas and The Australian. It's time

4
00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:46,199
Speaker 1: now to explain broadly where the rest of this series

5
00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:46,800
Speaker 1: is going.

6
00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:49,000
Speaker 2: You are going to hear.

7
00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:53,000
Speaker 1: More about John's actions in relation to money and five

8
00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:57,000
Speaker 1: remarkable days of public hearings at the inquest in Lismore

9
00:00:57,120 --> 00:01:01,320
Speaker 1: in two thousand and two into the presumed death Boman Joy.

10
00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:03,040
Speaker 2: Winfield will be reconstructed.

11
00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:07,240
Speaker 1: With the reconstruction, it will seem to listeners as if

12
00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:11,840
Speaker 1: they are inside the courtroom where key witnesses were questioned under.

13
00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:13,399
Speaker 2: Oath while John looked on.

14
00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:18,800
Speaker 1: You'll hear how the then Deputy State Coroner, Karl Milavanovitch

15
00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:22,960
Speaker 1: viewed the case along with the police officer who presented

16
00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:28,720
Speaker 1: the evidence, Matt Fordham. Karl Milavanovitch's recommendation to the Office

17
00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:32,479
Speaker 1: of the Director of Public Prosecutions to prosecute John Winfield

18
00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:36,040
Speaker 1: for murder was rejected by the DPP, and we're going

19
00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:40,240
Speaker 1: to look at that decision too. After the DPP had

20
00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:44,080
Speaker 1: confirmed its position in two thousand and three, not much

21
00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:48,600
Speaker 1: happened in Roman's case until the investigation from two thousand

22
00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:51,360
Speaker 1: and nine, led by the then Detective.

23
00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:52,720
Speaker 2: Inspector George Radmore.

24
00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:57,040
Speaker 1: With more detectives and resources at his disposal than Glenn

25
00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:01,440
Speaker 1: Taylor was afforded. George Radmore ran a signalant and serious

26
00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:04,640
Speaker 1: inquiry and it looked at some important new angles.

27
00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:06,920
Speaker 2: Finally we'll draw.

28
00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:10,280
Speaker 1: To a conclusion that is the plan at this early

29
00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:12,639
Speaker 1: stage of the third season of Bromwin.

30
00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:15,520
Speaker 2: When I spoke to Maddie a.

31
00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:18,520
Speaker 1: Year ago at a cafe in Circular Key in Sydney,

32
00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:22,080
Speaker 1: I volunteered to her that this case might span a

33
00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:27,959
Speaker 1: total of just eight episodes. Have you had to think

34
00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:33,880
Speaker 1: about the kinds of aspects of this that you feel that.

35
00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:37,680
Speaker 3: You're equipped to subject to truth here, I'm happy.

36
00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:41,600
Speaker 4: To do anything, really and yeah, I'm open to it all.

37
00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:45,640
Speaker 1: But something we have discovered while having the privilege of

38
00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:51,919
Speaker 1: investigating Broman's disappearance is that things change quickly. Unforeseen events

39
00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:55,480
Speaker 1: like new evidence and new witnesses can turn even a

40
00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:59,799
Speaker 1: well laid plan on its head a new development. For example,

41
00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:03,640
Speaker 1: in the Reignited investigation by police from the New South

42
00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:08,320
Speaker 1: Wales Unsolved Homicide Unit, they told Andy Reid back in

43
00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:12,240
Speaker 1: May twenty twenty four that they were essentially done, that

44
00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:15,480
Speaker 1: there was nothing more they could do without fresh leads

45
00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:20,040
Speaker 1: into Broman's disappearance. As a result of what then started

46
00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:24,399
Speaker 1: to emerge in the early episodes of Bromwin, they decided

47
00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:27,400
Speaker 1: that they were not done after all, and they've been

48
00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:32,440
Speaker 1: taking statements from key people. Now for the first time

49
00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:35,760
Speaker 1: in this series, let's go to the longest and the

50
00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:39,760
Speaker 1: most compelling statement in the bundle of statements organized by

51
00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:44,920
Speaker 1: the detective Sergeant Glen Taylor during his investigation. It's the

52
00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:48,480
Speaker 1: statement of Glenn himself and it runs to one hundred

53
00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:53,600
Speaker 1: and twenty pages. Glenn signed it on October thirteenth, nineteen

54
00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:57,240
Speaker 1: ninety nine. It is a summary of the evidence of

55
00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:01,680
Speaker 1: every witness. It also just scribes a lot of information

56
00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:03,760
Speaker 1: which Glenn discovered along the way.

57
00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:06,080
Speaker 2: Glenn had made a.

58
00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:10,080
Speaker 1: Simple inquiry with the Road Transport Authority in nineteen ninety

59
00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:14,760
Speaker 1: eight about Bromwin's driver's license. The records revealed that her

60
00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:20,640
Speaker 1: license had expired on July twenty nine, nineteen ninety three.

61
00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:21,440
Speaker 2: And that it was not renewed.

62
00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:26,039
Speaker 1: A known fact like that should have been uncovered by

63
00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:29,919
Speaker 1: the initial investigation in nineteen ninety three, but there's no

64
00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:34,800
Speaker 1: record from then that any such inquiry was made. Glenn

65
00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:38,840
Speaker 1: also checked with Medicare and their staff confirmed that there

66
00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:43,120
Speaker 1: had been no claim by Bromwin. After her disappearance, he

67
00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:47,240
Speaker 1: obtained records from the Commonwealth Bank. The last transaction on

68
00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:49,839
Speaker 1: the account that Bromen used for her day to day

69
00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:53,840
Speaker 1: expenses was a withdrawal of seventy dollars on May fourteen,

70
00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:59,360
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three. This account also received the single parent

71
00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:03,960
Speaker 1: pension from Centilink. Back then it was known as the

72
00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:06,920
Speaker 1: Department of Social Security, but we are going to call

73
00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:11,880
Speaker 1: it Centerlink because that's how everybody knows it now. Bromman

74
00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:15,160
Speaker 1: had been entitled to it since her separation from John

75
00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:19,880
Speaker 1: in late March. She also received a smaller family payment

76
00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:25,240
Speaker 1: for the children. After Broman's disappearance, there were five automatic

77
00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:29,720
Speaker 1: weekly payments, but then nothing further. After June twenty four,

78
00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:34,520
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three. The balance of her account was one thousand,

79
00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:39,640
Speaker 1: five hundred and eight dollars and this wasn't touched. Another

80
00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:43,280
Speaker 1: account in her maiden name of Bromwin Reid held three

81
00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:49,320
Speaker 1: hundred and eighty three dollars. Glenn Taylor made inquiries with Centilink,

82
00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:53,080
Speaker 1: and he spoke to an employee there, Francis McNamara, who

83
00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:57,800
Speaker 1: went through Broman's files. Mister McNamara told the detective that

84
00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:02,520
Speaker 1: Broman had applied for child old support assessment on Monday

85
00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:07,880
Speaker 1: May tenth. This application was forwarded to the child support

86
00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:12,320
Speaker 1: agency on the same day, six days before Bromwin vanished.

87
00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:16,839
Speaker 1: I've asked Glenn Taylor to read paragraph one hundred and

88
00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:20,360
Speaker 1: eighty one from page ninety of his police statement of

89
00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:21,640
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety nine.

90
00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:27,919
Speaker 5: Inquiries with the child support agency in Sydney confirmed that

91
00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:32,160
Speaker 5: a claim had been made by Bromwin Winfield for payments

92
00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:35,640
Speaker 5: to be made by her husband for.

93
00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:36,960
Speaker 2: The support of the children.

94
00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:42,560
Speaker 5: A document was located which sets out the proposed arrangement.

95
00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:48,400
Speaker 5: This order was apparently never acted upon, as Bromwin had

96
00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:52,279
Speaker 5: gone missing. On sixteenth May nineteen ninety three.

97
00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:57,880
Speaker 1: At the federal government's Child Support Agency, Bromwin had been

98
00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:02,640
Speaker 1: allocated a case number three two three eight two six.

99
00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:07,760
Speaker 1: A child support registrar wrote to Bromwin advising.

100
00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:10,560
Speaker 6: We have accepted your application for an assessment of how

101
00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:14,680
Speaker 6: much child support mister Jonathan Winfield should pay you. Set

102
00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:17,360
Speaker 6: out below are the amounts we expect to collect for you.

103
00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:21,520
Speaker 6: Please note that we cannot guarantee payment. We can only

104
00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:23,800
Speaker 6: pay you what we collect from the paying parent.

105
00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:28,360
Speaker 1: John was up for an initial payment of six hundred

106
00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:31,320
Speaker 1: and seven dollars because it was determined that he had

107
00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:36,560
Speaker 1: owed Bromwyn money since April twelve, nineteen ninety three, He

108
00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:39,520
Speaker 1: would need to find two hundred and thirty one dollars

109
00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:43,280
Speaker 1: a month for his regular payment to her. To be clear,

110
00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:46,080
Speaker 1: I want to stress that this payment, which was to

111
00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:48,600
Speaker 1: come out of John's pocket and go to Bromwin to

112
00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:52,320
Speaker 1: help feed and clothe the children, was separate from the

113
00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:57,560
Speaker 1: sole parent pension. The sole parent pension came from Centerlink,

114
00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:02,239
Speaker 1: not from John. Are of course eligible for the sole

115
00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:05,200
Speaker 1: parent pension too if the female parent.

116
00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:05,840
Speaker 2: Is not around.

117
00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:10,960
Speaker 1: Glen Taylor discovered that the weekly sole parent pension payments

118
00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:14,600
Speaker 1: BI center Link to Broman's bank were cut off, and

119
00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:19,800
Speaker 1: this had happened just sixteen days after Broman's disappearance. Here's

120
00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:23,840
Speaker 1: Glen Taylor again reading from his nineteen ninety nine statement.

121
00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:25,520
Speaker 2: Missus Bromwin.

122
00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:31,560
Speaker 5: Winfield's husband Jonathan attended the Bawonous Social Security Office on

123
00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:36,520
Speaker 5: second of Gen nineteen ninety three to advise that Missus

124
00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:41,280
Speaker 5: bromwin Winfield had disappeared, and the sole parent pension was

125
00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:42,680
Speaker 5: suspended on that day.

126
00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:46,640
Speaker 2: Records revealed that there.

127
00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:50,120
Speaker 5: Has not been a further claim or any payment since

128
00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:55,320
Speaker 5: the payments were suspended. The pension was canceled on twenty

129
00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:59,719
Speaker 5: fifth to Gen nineteen ninety three, when it was determined

130
00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:04,240
Speaker 5: there were no children in brom and Winfield's care as

131
00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:10,360
Speaker 5: another person had applied for a sole parent pension, Jonathan Winfield,

132
00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:15,120
Speaker 5: claiming the children to be in his care. Brom and

133
00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:19,640
Speaker 5: Winfield's family Allowance payment was also canceled from that date.

134
00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:24,560
Speaker 1: Let's rehash the timeline again. There's a lot of key

135
00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:29,840
Speaker 1: dates and they can be confusing. John reported Broman missing

136
00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:34,120
Speaker 1: on May twenty seven. That was eleven days after he

137
00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,320
Speaker 1: says she walked out of the house on Sandstone Crescent.

138
00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:42,040
Speaker 1: John told Detective Sergeant Graham Diskin back then that Broman

139
00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:44,880
Speaker 1: was aware that he would take the girls to Sydney

140
00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:47,880
Speaker 1: for eight to ten days while she enjoyed what he

141
00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:52,360
Speaker 1: called her break from the kids. But just sixteen days

142
00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:57,360
Speaker 1: after Broman had purportedly left and with the possibility, according

143
00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:01,400
Speaker 1: to John's version, that she should return any day, John

144
00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:05,679
Speaker 1: went to the Centerlink office in Ballina to suspend Bromin's

145
00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:09,199
Speaker 1: single parent pension and have it diverted to his bank

146
00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:13,320
Speaker 1: account instead. It took just six days from when John

147
00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:16,240
Speaker 1: reported his wife missing for him to get the payments

148
00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:20,199
Speaker 1: to her cut and channel to him. Here's Andy Reid

149
00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:23,400
Speaker 1: talking to me via zoom from a building site.

150
00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,560
Speaker 7: If your story was that your wife walked down the

151
00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:29,280
Speaker 7: door and had a change to go away for a while,

152
00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:31,880
Speaker 7: why within about three weeks of her doing that, did

153
00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:35,000
Speaker 7: you go and change all monastery payments for the kids

154
00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:37,760
Speaker 7: and get your name so they came in hers.

155
00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:42,400
Speaker 1: Now Here is Michelle with Andy revisiting the same issue

156
00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:44,520
Speaker 1: with me in the lounge room of their home in

157
00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:45,080
Speaker 1: the Shire.

158
00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:47,440
Speaker 8: That's what worries me.

159
00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:52,360
Speaker 4: How quickly he went and changed the shell a Link payments.

160
00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:54,760
Speaker 5: Oh, she told me she's only going on a break.

161
00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:59,280
Speaker 9: Why would you go there and change everything to get

162
00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:00,080
Speaker 9: money for the kid.

163
00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:03,880
Speaker 3: For someone that's supposedly just gone off for a few

164
00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:06,880
Speaker 3: days to get a head clear, right, Why have you

165
00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:09,800
Speaker 3: then gone and demanded that she'd be taken off the

166
00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:13,400
Speaker 3: single pension And how can someone else do that? She

167
00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:15,160
Speaker 3: hasn't got the kids, so you can't let her get

168
00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:17,000
Speaker 3: any money from now on. I've got the kids, so

169
00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:18,120
Speaker 3: you've got to give me the money.

170
00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:20,560
Speaker 2: Well sort of proof, did you're going to tell me?

171
00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:24,080
Speaker 9: He walked into a Social Security place and said, my

172
00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:27,880
Speaker 9: life's getting a Social Security and she's.

173
00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:30,760
Speaker 2: Not here anymore. Oh okay, sir, you.

174
00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:32,200
Speaker 8: Know how do you do that?

175
00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:37,600
Speaker 1: Something else became evident from the files. Even though the

176
00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:41,920
Speaker 1: Center Link payments to Broman were canceled but not by Bromman,

177
00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:46,240
Speaker 1: it appeared that on April twenty four, nineteen ninety six,

178
00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:51,800
Speaker 1: three years after Broman's disappearance, her address four Centerlink records,

179
00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:55,240
Speaker 1: was changed from Lennox Head to her old address in

180
00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:57,120
Speaker 1: the Shire and then we'd leave.

181
00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:01,600
Speaker 3: Another few years later, on Bromman's birthday, someone's gone to

182
00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:05,840
Speaker 3: the Department of Social Services and tried to change Broman's

183
00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:10,120
Speaker 3: address back to where they lived in eighty eight behind

184
00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:11,200
Speaker 3: the takeaway shop.

185
00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:12,920
Speaker 2: In the flat. What would the motive be for that

186
00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:13,760
Speaker 2: he's done it.

187
00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:16,959
Speaker 10: Someone's turned around and they're trying to make out that

188
00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:21,440
Speaker 10: Bromin's still around by asking for a request to change

189
00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:23,280
Speaker 10: of address and tried to put it in the old

190
00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:25,040
Speaker 10: address back down here where she used to live.

191
00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:26,000
Speaker 2: Who's done that.

192
00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:28,720
Speaker 8: It's not Bromlin or was it someone trying to make.

193
00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:31,960
Speaker 11: Out Someone's trying to make out it was Bromwin? Why

194
00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:38,520
Speaker 11: changing her address. Glen Taylor's plan as his investigation unfolded

195
00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:41,600
Speaker 11: through the second half of nineteen ninety eight and into

196
00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:44,760
Speaker 11: nineteen ninety nine was to put all the evidence in

197
00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:49,480
Speaker 11: front of a coroner. Glenn believed then that an experienced

198
00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:53,800
Speaker 11: coroner would recommend a prosecution, but it would take time

199
00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:58,280
Speaker 11: for the inquest to be scheduled. Before that happened, John

200
00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:03,719
Speaker 11: was growing increasingly unhappy. Glenn Taylor and Wayne Tembe were

201
00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:09,000
Speaker 11: talking to so many people, family members, friends, neighbors, workmates.

202
00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:14,240
Speaker 11: John telephone to complain about it. That phone call, do

203
00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:14,840
Speaker 11: you remember.

204
00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:18,840
Speaker 5: He was upset that we were interviewing people that he knew,

205
00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:24,760
Speaker 5: his daughter Jodie, his brother Peter, various people that he knew,

206
00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:29,520
Speaker 5: everyone we thought relevant to the investigation. And I think

207
00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:32,480
Speaker 5: he was believing the word was getting out that the

208
00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:35,040
Speaker 5: police were looking at going to try to charge him

209
00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:35,640
Speaker 5: with murder.

210
00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:37,320
Speaker 2: All we were doing at.

211
00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:40,760
Speaker 5: That stage we had reported her suspected death to the coroner.

212
00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:44,400
Speaker 5: He was quite upset that people were being interviewed He

213
00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:47,640
Speaker 5: wanted basically just to keep it all everything quiet. He

214
00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:51,880
Speaker 5: was saying, Okay, the problem went away in about mid

215
00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:55,520
Speaker 5: nineteen ninety three, nothing had been again looked at now

216
00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:59,560
Speaker 5: five years, things had all gone quiet, and he was

217
00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:02,800
Speaker 5: probably hoping that would remain that way and stay quite

218
00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:06,640
Speaker 5: Suddenly we're out there. He had contacted me and he

219
00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:11,600
Speaker 5: said he was agitated and said, you're going to find

220
00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,960
Speaker 5: out she's running around with some rich sugar daddy somewhere

221
00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,760
Speaker 5: and she's living elsewhere. And he was just upset that

222
00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:23,320
Speaker 5: he was just going along along like it's just a

223
00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:26,400
Speaker 5: missing person. No one's looking at it him, or it's

224
00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:30,480
Speaker 5: all going quiet. We knew bought at that stage. He

225
00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:34,720
Speaker 5: went down to the Senate link and got Broman's pension

226
00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:40,200
Speaker 5: cut off. He's then applied for the pension himself to

227
00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:43,920
Speaker 5: look after the kids. He's gone in and now he's

228
00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:47,600
Speaker 5: getting a government pension payment as a single parent.

229
00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:51,240
Speaker 2: And she's only been missing two or three weeks.

230
00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:53,520
Speaker 5: At this stage, it's like he's saying, oh, she's going

231
00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:56,440
Speaker 5: away for two weeks, and here it is shortly after

232
00:14:56,520 --> 00:15:01,080
Speaker 5: two weeks. He's already made it just decision that she's

233
00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:04,840
Speaker 5: permanently disappeared, not coming back to the kids, and got

234
00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:07,520
Speaker 5: her pension cut off. And then he's applied and got

235
00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:11,200
Speaker 5: the pension himself, so she had then come back to

236
00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:16,800
Speaker 5: the house and he's applied for sole custody of the

237
00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:20,880
Speaker 5: kids and now and receipt of the single parent pension

238
00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:26,160
Speaker 5: that Broban was receiving. Michelle said, they questioned him about this.

239
00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:28,040
Speaker 5: I did that to flush her out.

240
00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:53,200
Speaker 12: That was the words he told them.

241
00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:57,560
Speaker 1: This investigative podcast series was not meant to grow this big.

242
00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:02,640
Speaker 1: It has taken many moreses than I had anticipated to

243
00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:06,280
Speaker 1: do justice to the sheer volume of material and evidence

244
00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:10,880
Speaker 1: to convey the accounts of new witnesses who have come forward,

245
00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:13,800
Speaker 1: people like Judy Singh.

246
00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:16,400
Speaker 9: And he kind of looked up this night and I

247
00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:20,280
Speaker 9: saw this what looked to be like a mummy in

248
00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:23,520
Speaker 9: the back of the car, and I thought, well, even

249
00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:27,640
Speaker 9: if he was taking out belongings, you wouldn't make it

250
00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:29,040
Speaker 9: look like a body.

251
00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:34,160
Speaker 1: To detour into unexpected places to talk to people like

252
00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:35,880
Speaker 1: Sonya Lee.

253
00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:40,280
Speaker 13: She would have been fourteen when their relationship started.

254
00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:41,479
Speaker 8: Fifteen.

255
00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:47,119
Speaker 13: As it progressed, if the girls need to question anyone's truths,

256
00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:55,760
Speaker 13: his truths, start questioning them poor crystal as a human

257
00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:57,600
Speaker 13: How can you put somebody through.

258
00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:03,440
Speaker 1: That and to expel law in minute detail. Some discrepancies

259
00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:08,359
Speaker 1: and omissions in John's versions, particularly from his nineteen ninety

260
00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:11,600
Speaker 1: eight interview with Glenn Taylor, which was recorded in the

261
00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:12,800
Speaker 1: Ballana Police Station.

262
00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:17,199
Speaker 14: All I know is it was dark, you know, it

263
00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:20,040
Speaker 14: was probably at least an hour or maybe an hour

264
00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:23,959
Speaker 14: and a half after the plane landed, whatever time that was,

265
00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:26,760
Speaker 14: and that was dark, because I remember I got off

266
00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:27,720
Speaker 14: the plane in the dark.

267
00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:32,600
Speaker 5: It was two phone calls, mate, Yeah, apparently one at

268
00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:35,919
Speaker 5: six point fifty three pm and one at seven oh

269
00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:36,639
Speaker 5: six pm.

270
00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:42,280
Speaker 1: This in turn led to a more accurate understanding of

271
00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:46,160
Speaker 1: the likely timeline, as well as who made key telephone

272
00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:49,960
Speaker 1: calls on the last night Bromen was seen. May sixteen,

273
00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:54,840
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three. There's our discovery of documents going back

274
00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:58,200
Speaker 1: thirty one years showing in black and white the timing

275
00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:02,280
Speaker 1: of approvals by council and spaces for two concrete paws

276
00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:05,919
Speaker 1: at a building site where John Winfield was helping build

277
00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:08,959
Speaker 1: a house before and after Bromin disappeared.

278
00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:12,480
Speaker 3: That's the cup of shoot of the file, and then

279
00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:16,800
Speaker 3: it's just got the dates and times of when various

280
00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:22,159
Speaker 3: inspections were done Thursday, thirteenth of May. The Garash and.

281
00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:26,080
Speaker 15: Front Porch slabs were given the tick of approval to

282
00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:29,960
Speaker 15: be able at the poll, which we believe from compensations

283
00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:32,800
Speaker 15: with Glenn was fought on the Tuesday of the Wednesday

284
00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:33,760
Speaker 15: the following week.

285
00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:39,159
Speaker 1: When aligned with John's unusual actions in driving back to

286
00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:44,000
Speaker 1: the Shire on Monday May seventeen, Those newly discovered documents

287
00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:47,920
Speaker 1: have aroused suspicions over whether Bromin's grave was made at

288
00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:53,320
Speaker 1: that property in the shire shortly before the paws of Concrete.

289
00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:56,520
Speaker 1: We do not know what else the police might be doing,

290
00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:00,560
Speaker 1: nor do we need to know, but are properly and

291
00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:05,480
Speaker 1: professionally organized search of the property at Illawong is necessary

292
00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:08,480
Speaker 1: in our view, which brings us to what you're about

293
00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:11,960
Speaker 1: to hear in this episode and how the lawyer Karina

294
00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:15,200
Speaker 1: Berger came up with a sensible pathway over a couple

295
00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:18,199
Speaker 1: of days of brainstorming and filming at my house in

296
00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:22,360
Speaker 1: Brisbane with the former detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor and Maddie Walsh,

297
00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:26,280
Speaker 1: Annie Reid, his wife Michelle, and my friends and colleagues

298
00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:28,280
Speaker 1: Claire Harvey and Matt Condon.

299
00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:30,840
Speaker 8: Can I just interrupt quickly?

300
00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:34,399
Speaker 1: You were behind the scenes as we mark the start

301
00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:39,119
Speaker 1: of season three of Bromwin. We've been filming three videos

302
00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:42,520
Speaker 1: for subscribers, more than an hour and a half of

303
00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:45,679
Speaker 1: content to deep die of Bromwin's case with some of

304
00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:48,000
Speaker 1: the most knowledgeable and helpful people I know.

305
00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:49,920
Speaker 6: We're rolling now.

306
00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:55,080
Speaker 1: That's Bianca far Marcus. In earlier episodes you heard her

307
00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:58,320
Speaker 1: as a voice actor reading some of Bromwin's letters.

308
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:02,600
Speaker 8: When we moved to Lennox Head, I was even more lonely.

309
00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:07,200
Speaker 8: The house that was built became John's castle in my prison.

310
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,280
Speaker 1: Our colleague and friend has also consented to being wrapped

311
00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:15,480
Speaker 1: in sheets and bundled into the back seat, as well

312
00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:18,840
Speaker 1: as the boot of an exf Ford Falcon as we've

313
00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:23,200
Speaker 1: reconstructed what witness Judy Singh says she saw late one

314
00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:25,280
Speaker 1: night in May nineteen ninety three.

315
00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:28,080
Speaker 8: Are you happy with the place one of these marcro books.

316
00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:33,520
Speaker 1: There's Claire Harvey, the Australian's editorial director. We talk a

317
00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:37,120
Speaker 1: lot about Bromwin and other cold cases from the earlier

318
00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:40,119
Speaker 1: stage when I'm trying to work out whether there's potential

319
00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:43,360
Speaker 1: for one to be solved, and then during the investigation

320
00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:48,119
Speaker 1: and storytelling as the podcast gathers momentum. Claire is like

321
00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:51,440
Speaker 1: a firm but pretty cool school teacher who keeps us

322
00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:52,600
Speaker 1: focused in class.

323
00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:54,840
Speaker 8: We'll get it in the works.

324
00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:59,360
Speaker 1: Kristin Amiot is a guru behind the scenes of these productions.

325
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:06,600
Speaker 1: Organization and logistics, even dreaded spreadsheets are her specialty. How well, there,

326
00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:11,119
Speaker 1: that's Sean Callanan, who creates many of the brilliant graphics

327
00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:15,000
Speaker 1: you've seen at our Bronwyn podcast dot com website. He

328
00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:18,920
Speaker 1: flies drones and shoots award winning photographs and video too.

329
00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:22,040
Speaker 8: Another thing just to be careful of, Glenn is tapping

330
00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:22,520
Speaker 8: the table.

331
00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:27,239
Speaker 1: Claire is giving the former detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor a

332
00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:30,639
Speaker 1: friendly lesson about what happens when he unwittingly lets his

333
00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:34,080
Speaker 1: hand with its wristwatch make contact with the timber table

334
00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:39,639
Speaker 1: during an interview. The noise is distracting, the microphones are sensitive.

335
00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:42,240
Speaker 8: You're welcome to have your hand up there, but just that.

336
00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:43,399
Speaker 2: What we'll be able to hear it.

337
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:48,880
Speaker 5: Okay, sorry to blink o, poor good.

338
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:49,600
Speaker 8: Okay.

339
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,440
Speaker 1: And here's the mild mannered, eagle eyed professional film producer

340
00:21:54,560 --> 00:22:00,760
Speaker 1: Jonathan Barjome, who leads a video team.

341
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,280
Speaker 5: One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight nineteen.

342
00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:07,280
Speaker 1: The interviews are usually much smaller events, featuring only me,

343
00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:10,960
Speaker 1: the interviewee, and a low key microphone with no cameras.

344
00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:14,800
Speaker 1: Most people are a lot more candid when the only

345
00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:18,679
Speaker 1: thing being recorded is their voice for audio. But for

346
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:22,440
Speaker 1: a short time, this team of behind the scenes professionals

347
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:27,440
Speaker 1: is standing around a dining table. The first podcast episode

348
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:30,159
Speaker 1: of season three wasn't going to start like this, but

349
00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:33,280
Speaker 1: a special thing happened during the shoot in Brisbane.

350
00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:35,119
Speaker 2: It was a light bulb moment.

351
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:39,359
Speaker 1: Karina is a lawyer who left an important job for

352
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:43,200
Speaker 1: the Australian Government Solicitor in Canberra to spend more time

353
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,560
Speaker 1: at home with her young children, and with some spare

354
00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:48,880
Speaker 1: time on her hands, she got in touch to offer

355
00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,040
Speaker 1: to help in the Bromwin podcast series.

356
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:53,160
Speaker 2: She's come to Brisbane.

357
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:55,600
Speaker 1: To meet my colleagues as well as Andy and Michelle Reid,

358
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:59,479
Speaker 1: Mattie Walsh, Glenn Taylor and others, and it led to

359
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:03,800
Speaker 1: asticated strategy to try to find Bromwin's remains if they

360
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:06,879
Speaker 1: are indeed beneath the slab of house in a place

361
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 1: called Illawong, near where Bromwin grew up in the shire.

362
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:15,320
Speaker 1: Now here is the formidable Claire again Green.

363
00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:17,159
Speaker 8: I'm going to start with you and talk about the

364
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,840
Speaker 8: house at Illawall. This is where we ended season two.

365
00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:26,159
Speaker 1: In that episode the twentieth in the Bromwin investigation, I

366
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,399
Speaker 1: sat in the passenger seat of Andy's near new car

367
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:34,320
Speaker 1: which was briefly parked outside the house at Illawong. Andy

368
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:38,119
Speaker 1: was driving and Maddie was in the back. Let's go

369
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:42,119
Speaker 1: forward and do you too, Annie, as you look at

370
00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:47,440
Speaker 1: it again, now, what's your view about the logistics and

371
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:50,679
Speaker 1: the feasibility of the plausibility of what we're talking about.

372
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:53,840
Speaker 3: John could have very easily backed the car up over

373
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,160
Speaker 3: there that true wouldn't have been there, hardly anyone would

374
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,480
Speaker 3: have been around, and then you would have just taken

375
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:03,879
Speaker 3: around of the roller straight across the ground there and

376
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 3: then pulled the slab on top. So it's backfield color right,

377
00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 3: See the land falls away.

378
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 4: Can you imagine if someone came up to your door

379
00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:14,080
Speaker 4: and told you this may be.

380
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:20,000
Speaker 16: A person underneath your proud geor how would you even

381
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:20,720
Speaker 16: approach that.

382
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,440
Speaker 8: Illawong is, of course in the Sutherland Shire, in Sydney South.

383
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,439
Speaker 8: It's a long way from Lennox Head, but it's where

384
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:32,440
Speaker 8: our focus has come at the end of season two.

385
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 8: As we start the work on season three, can you

386
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:37,480
Speaker 8: talk to me about why this particular house in il

387
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:39,600
Speaker 8: Along is something that you and heavily have come to

388
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:40,680
Speaker 8: focus so closely on.

389
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,160
Speaker 17: Well, Claire, I think when we step back and look

390
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 17: at all of the evidence that's been gathered by the

391
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,879
Speaker 17: police and in the coronial investigation, and combine that with

392
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,560
Speaker 17: the information that's come out during the podcast, there are

393
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:56,359
Speaker 17: factors that may tend to suggest that Bronmin's remains maybe

394
00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:57,200
Speaker 17: at that location.

395
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:01,199
Speaker 1: Karina has been a great help to me and to

396
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:06,119
Speaker 1: this investigation since she volunteered her time and expertise. She

397
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:09,960
Speaker 1: is eternally curious about Roman's case, and.

398
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 17: We can start to put together a bit of a

399
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:16,440
Speaker 17: possible theory about what might have happened here. And if

400
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:20,640
Speaker 17: we start with John's very sudden departure from Lennox Head

401
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 17: on the evening of the sixteenth of May, or the

402
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:27,440
Speaker 17: very early morning of the seventeenth of May, in which

403
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:29,960
Speaker 17: he seemed to leave in a great hurry, packed up

404
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 17: the girls in the middle of the night, seemed to

405
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 17: have hardly taken any clothes for them, drove through the

406
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 17: night to get to Sydney allegedly for submergent work, which

407
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 17: is what he told certain members of the family. If

408
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 17: we step out his movements a little bit further, he

409
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:52,120
Speaker 17: delivered the girls to his ex wife's house and left

410
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:54,720
Speaker 17: them with a person that they didn't know for a

411
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 17: significant period of time because he had to attend the

412
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 17: urgent work on the day. And that's really quite odd

413
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,439
Speaker 17: behavior to me anyway, because he had a number of

414
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 17: child minding options available to him.

415
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,879
Speaker 8: He had Andy and Michelle at their place.

416
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 17: He also had his own brother and his own sister

417
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 17: in law, so one has to wonder why he chose

418
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,920
Speaker 17: to arrive on the doorstep of his ex wife's house unannounced.

419
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,720
Speaker 17: It's just an odd thing to do in my opinion.

420
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:28,679
Speaker 17: He then disappears four hours and his time during that

421
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:32,680
Speaker 17: period seems to be completely unaccounted for. Nobody knows what

422
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:37,359
Speaker 17: he was doing. He did not inform the police what

423
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 17: he was doing to my knowledge, during those hours. He

424
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 17: also didn't inform the police of the fact that he

425
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 17: left the girls with his ex wife on the morning,

426
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 17: which again raises questions in my mind as to why

427
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 17: he has potentially withheld that information from police and also

428
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:58,840
Speaker 17: withheld it from some members of the family too. We

429
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,639
Speaker 17: also from work that's been done during the podcast that

430
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 17: it was possible to fit a person of about Bronwyn's

431
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 17: stature in the boot of the family car, even with

432
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 17: a large gas tank installed, So we know it was

433
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 17: physically possible to get Bronwyn to Sydney in that way,

434
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 17: despite the risks that John faced doing that, and particularly

435
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 17: driving an unregistered car on a very long journey.

436
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:27,879
Speaker 1: Karina accurately described how we were seeing things at the

437
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 1: end of episode twenty and the culmination of season two.

438
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 17: And then, of course we have discovered that a concrete

439
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 17: pore was approved on the Thursday, the thirteenth of May,

440
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 17: only a few days before John set off for Sydney,

441
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:49,200
Speaker 17: and one has to wonder whether a concrete coll over

442
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 17: several locations that address might have provided the perfect opportunity

443
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 17: to bury a body with very little chance of that

444
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 17: body being found unless someone joined all of these dots

445
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:05,639
Speaker 17: together and made some inquiries about that site.

446
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:10,399
Speaker 8: What's your level of confidence or suspicion that Bronwin's body

447
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,439
Speaker 8: might be at that site at Illawong. Now, well, we

448
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 8: just don't know, Clara.

449
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 17: We don't know until we conduct some further investigations and

450
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 17: approach the owners and see if we can make some

451
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:21,440
Speaker 17: inquiries there.

452
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 8: And I am mindful that.

453
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 17: Bronman could be really anywhere from Ballina to Sydney and

454
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:31,880
Speaker 17: in between, but I do feel that thinking about all

455
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 17: of the evidence as a total sum, there is at

456
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 17: least a reasonable possibility that she is there, and I

457
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,960
Speaker 17: think it's a really good place to start by making

458
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 17: some further inquiries.

459
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 1: As you heard in the twentieth episode, I spoke to

460
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 1: the respected builder Glenn Webster about that house in n Illawong.

461
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 1: He had employed John Winfield as a bricklayer for its construction.

462
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 1: John was working there and mostly on his own in

463
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 1: the days immediately before, for and after Broman's disappearance. But

464
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 1: for the entire course of the investigation by the then

465
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 1: Detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor from nineteen ninety eight until the

466
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 1: two thousand and two inquest, the concrete paus were not

467
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 1: known to police and the building site in Illuwong went overlooked. Similarly,

468
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 1: the subsequent cold case review team, led by the then

469
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 1: Inspector George Radmore from around two thousand and nine did

470
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 1: not know of the concrete pause and did not focus

471
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 1: on the building site in Illawong. Detectives, Taylor, Radmore and

472
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,719
Speaker 1: others were suspicious of John's movements on the night he

473
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 1: suddenly left Lennox Head with his two girls and the

474
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 1: family dog, but they didn't have a few key pieces

475
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 1: of evidence, the documents showing the timing of the pause,

476
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 1: and the disclosure by a confidential source to me that

477
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 1: John had divulged that he had to rush back to

478
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 1: Ilowong for a concrete pause. John said not a word

479
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 1: about concrete pause to Glenn Taylor during the interview that

480
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 1: Glenn did with John in nineteen ninety eight.

481
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:11,240
Speaker 2: We now believe that.

482
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 1: The documents which the Council provided to and in showing

483
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 1: the approximate timing of the concrete pause are potentially very relevant.

484
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 8: Glenn. Listeners to Browlin have become very familiar with your

485
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 8: distinctive voice. We've heard you re enacting your quite remarkable

486
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 8: interview with John Winfield. The house at Illawong was not

487
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 8: one of the areas that your suspicion lighted on at

488
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 8: that time, as far as I can tell.

489
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 2: That's great.

490
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 5: See sudden viewers I've noticed in comments ask why I

491
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 5: wasn't more questions asked of John Winfield, but we made

492
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 5: an early decision to interview him first before we interviewed

493
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 5: anyone else, So we were on an evidence gathering mission

494
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 5: to start off with. We certainly were not aware at

495
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 5: that point that he had dropped the kids off in

496
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 5: their pajamas at his ex wife's house. We didn't know

497
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 5: of that, so we certainly couldn't ask him about it,

498
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 5: and he chose not to reveal that information. He had

499
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 5: left late night, He had no sleep that we know of,

500
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 5: and he drove overnight to Sydney, so that in his

501
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 5: mind there must have been some urgency for him to

502
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 5: get back to Sydney and some reason for that. We

503
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 5: had not interviewed his employer, who owned the Yellow Worn

504
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 5: house and built a Glenn Webster. At that time, we

505
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 5: didn't have information as to what work he was doing

506
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 5: down there. Listeners would note that John was extremely amazing

507
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 5: in his interview and we didn't really push him that

508
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 5: hard and be course, if we started to give him

509
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:51,719
Speaker 5: more questions that he could possibly trip up on at

510
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 5: any given time, he could have just said, look here,

511
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 5: of my own free will. He was not under arrest

512
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 5: and he could have just walked out the door. He

513
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 5: was there as a voluntary witness, so we elected not

514
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 5: to really pushing. We wanted to see how the evidence

515
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 5: as we took statements was going to unfold, and then

516
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 5: we could possibly come back to him later.

517
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 8: What are your thoughts now, having listened to Henley and

518
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 8: Karina's work in the podcast about that house.

519
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 5: In it war, Well, it's got to be a reasonable hypothesis.

520
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 5: He's felt the need, he's got to leave the kids

521
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 5: with someone, but he chose not to leave them with

522
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 5: direct family, which is a red flag in itself. Evidence

523
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 5: has come out through the podcast that certainly a body

524
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 5: could fit in the boot, even with a gas tank

525
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 5: in there. And then he's got a number of hours

526
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 5: before he eventually turns up at Andy and Michelle's house.

527
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 2: He's got a problem.

528
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 5: On his end and he needs to work out how

529
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 5: he's going to solve this problem. It is a reasonable

530
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 5: possibility that problem was put in under the slab before

531
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 5: the concrete.

532
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 8: Pol You're a very experienced cop. You've had thirty one

533
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 8: years to reflect on this and so many other cases

534
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 8: that you've worked on. Of course, is it just one

535
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 8: of many? How do you feel looking back and hearing

536
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 8: yourself in that interview as a much younger investigator talking

537
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 8: to John.

538
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:20,719
Speaker 5: Look, I'm first to admit I've learned things from the

539
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 5: podcast that we've missed.

540
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 2: Mistakes can happen.

541
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:29,240
Speaker 1: A hypothetical question, if in nineteen ninety eight or nineteen

542
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 1: ninety nine, after you've heard from Jenny Mason and her

543
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 1: then mother in law Joan Mason about this very impromptu,

544
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 1: surprising visit by John to the house, and if you've

545
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 1: also discovered at that time, and I know this doesn't

546
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,400
Speaker 1: come until the podcast investigation, but if you had known

547
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 1: back then that a concrete poor had been approved for

548
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 1: the property at Illawong that John had been working on,

549
00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 1: what do you think might have changed in the investigation

550
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 1: that you were conducting in so far as.

551
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 2: A possible search is concerned.

552
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 1: I don't think it.

553
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 5: Was sort of raised because we knew that Glenn Webster

554
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 5: was building his own house and years in John Winfield

555
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,400
Speaker 5: to do the brick lane, but we didn't discuss what

556
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 5: stages slabs were poured, but it'd certainly become a relevant topic.

557
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 2: Now, what are.

558
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 1: The requirements for you as a detective sergeant to seek

559
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 1: a search?

560
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:30,760
Speaker 5: Well, if we had very strong, circumstantial evidence that there

561
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 5: had been a poor of concrete within a day or two,

562
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 5: we could have then put that evidence before a coroner,

563
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 5: and there's special powers a coroner has to order an

564
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 5: examination of underneath the slab, as possibly that could have

565
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 5: been done. But we certainly didn't have that information about

566
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 5: when concrete was poured at that time. We didn't have

567
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 5: any strong evidence that he had gone out to the

568
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 5: site when he got to Sydney, and his answers we

569
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:02,720
Speaker 5: were extremely vague in the interview.

570
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:04,440
Speaker 2: What did he do? Where did he go?

571
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 1: It's hypothetical, Glenn, if you are the detective in charge

572
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 1: today and you know all of the information that we've

573
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 1: been discussing in the podcast, as well as the information

574
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 1: you had back then, so you have all this new

575
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:22,400
Speaker 1: fresh information, what do you say should be done at

576
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 1: Ilawong you're the officer in charge now?

577
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:26,239
Speaker 2: Hypothetically right, Okay.

578
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:30,759
Speaker 5: Well, I'd be putting in a written request to the

579
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 5: coroner seeking a coroner's order that the site be examined

580
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,239
Speaker 5: by way of imaging or however they would do it,

581
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 5: because there's certainly some modern techniques now that are available

582
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 5: without completely pulling up the whole slab that should be

583
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:48,920
Speaker 5: looked at.

584
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 2: As Glenn made.

585
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 1: Those key points about the coroner, Karina Berger made a

586
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 1: mental note. She intuitively knew at that moment that Glenn

587
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:03,799
Speaker 1: was right. The state coroner did have those powers, and

588
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 1: the state Coroner could also reopen the two thousand and

589
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:11,440
Speaker 1: two in quest if need be to exercise the powers

590
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 1: to perform a search for something as sensitive as a

591
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:19,400
Speaker 1: search for a body on private land beneath an existing,

592
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 1: established family home. My preference would always be to let

593
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:27,919
Speaker 1: the authorities do their job first, well ahead of journalists

594
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 1: and the victim's family. It just made more sense on

595
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 1: a number of levels. But if the authorities failed to act,

596
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 1: then journalism is there as a backstop and we can

597
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 1: then try to do our best. But while we were

598
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 1: all still being recorded and filmed at my dining table

599
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:49,720
Speaker 1: talking about Illawong, I had not clocked the obvious option

600
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:53,320
Speaker 1: of simply explaining to the state coroner in a formal

601
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:57,279
Speaker 1: submission why it would be such a good idea.

602
00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 2: Fortunately, Karina was.

603
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:02,280
Speaker 1: Mulling it over, and later in the day she shared

604
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:03,280
Speaker 1: what she was thinking.

605
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 2: We'll come to that soon.

606
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,839
Speaker 5: That's what I'd be looking at myself to get an

607
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 5: order from the coroner, and you could set out your

608
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 5: reasons why you have some suspicions that Romin could have

609
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:16,719
Speaker 5: been disposed of.

610
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 1: And in your view, to the suspicions or the reasons

611
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:21,960
Speaker 1: that you would be able to put down in writing

612
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:25,239
Speaker 1: rise to the level where that kind of request would

613
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 1: be consented to.

614
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 5: I believe that they certainly should be looking at that

615
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:34,160
Speaker 5: right now. We can't completely rule out like Ainsworth or

616
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,880
Speaker 5: anywhere else that next said, But there's still all this

617
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 5: unanswered questions. Why was it such a need urgently to

618
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:46,880
Speaker 5: get to Sydney drop those kids off somebody that didn't

619
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 5: even know them, and then you've got a number of

620
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 5: hours unexplain what you're doing. And then I think there

621
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 5: was some evidence that he'd supposedly told somebody that he

622
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:02,719
Speaker 5: had to get out to the job site. And now

623
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 5: your interview of Glenn Webster, who clearly says he was

624
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 5: not really needed, he didn't need to be there for

625
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:13,799
Speaker 5: the poor, but for some reason John believed that he

626
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 5: was needed out there, or he had something significant to

627
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 5: do out there. You've got to move forward in an investigation.

628
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:22,759
Speaker 5: I think that is the way to move forward now.

629
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 5: To try to eliminate the possibility of that prob when

630
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:27,400
Speaker 5: he is in fact under that slab.

631
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 1: I asked Andy Reid whether he could recall why the

632
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 1: building site at Illawong did not appear suspicious during police

633
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 1: investigations through the nineties and the two thousands, given the

634
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 1: knowledge then of John's hasty trip to Sydney and some

635
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:48,359
Speaker 1: of the strange circumstances surrounding that, it's hard to.

636
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:51,440
Speaker 3: Say that when you join the Dodds and when you

637
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 3: follow the info, I like Glenn did his best and

638
00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 3: the best of his ability. We still talk to Glenn,

639
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:03,799
Speaker 3: still chat regularly, and he's always been there to help

640
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:06,080
Speaker 3: and always said if I can never do anything, this

641
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:07,880
Speaker 3: has always been a case that's bugged me.

642
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:08,880
Speaker 8: He's always told us that.

643
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:12,439
Speaker 1: One of the things that we'll be looking at when

644
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 1: we develop episodes around the evidence from the inquest is

645
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:20,040
Speaker 1: the suspicion that fell on a building site near Lennox

646
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:24,719
Speaker 1: Head that John had access to, and evidence that was

647
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:30,319
Speaker 1: part of those in quest proceedings about the possibility that

648
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 1: Robin was in that building site. So it was occurring

649
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 1: to people at an early stage that a builder with

650
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,240
Speaker 1: access to a building site could potentially conceal a body,

651
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:45,800
Speaker 1: but just things that they were looking in the wrong

652
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 1: part of.

653
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:50,359
Speaker 2: He didn't have the time up there.

654
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:53,800
Speaker 3: There's no way he had hours to travel halfway to Boren.

655
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:55,840
Speaker 3: So he's got half an hour away to get.

656
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 8: Up there, so another half hour to gown home.

657
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 3: The time frame wouldn't have had you to go up there,

658
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:04,719
Speaker 3: do what possibly could have been done there, and then

659
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:05,959
Speaker 3: get back and.

660
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:09,520
Speaker 8: Be able to get to the shire in the timeframe

661
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:12,799
Speaker 8: that he did. If Bromwin is found at the house

662
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:16,840
Speaker 8: in Illawong, we know that John Winfield killed her. This

663
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 8: is the site completely unconnected to her life or anyone

664
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 8: else she knew. He is the only connection. Correct Do

665
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:28,239
Speaker 8: you have to try and control your feelings when you're

666
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:30,319
Speaker 8: trying to make assessments like that one there that you've

667
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 8: made Andy that you might want that to be true,

668
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 8: Yet you're applying your rigorous knowledge as an expert to

669
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:40,480
Speaker 8: this situation. How do you balance that?

670
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 1: I wish and then we just walt closure.

671
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:45,960
Speaker 3: We want to be able to find or want to

672
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 3: be able to find her. So you just got to

673
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 3: do what you've got to do, whatever that takes.

674
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:55,279
Speaker 2: Just keep pushing on.

675
00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:59,759
Speaker 4: I hope we do find her and maybe if she

676
00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 4: is an Illawong and that's where she's been all this time,

677
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 4: we can get closure from that and from there well,

678
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:14,799
Speaker 4: I guess that would be justice because there's only one

679
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:15,960
Speaker 4: person that could have done that.

680
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 18: I think the inexplicable conduct of John and the unexplained

681
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:28,360
Speaker 18: actions that he took leaving so suddenly, leaving a messy

682
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 18: house that he would have found very difficult to do

683
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 18: with his obsessive compulsive disorder, driving an unregistered car through

684
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:42,239
Speaker 18: the night, putting the children's clothes only in pillowcases in

685
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 18: the car, the very weird behavior in the shire, trying

686
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 18: to leave his daughters with a stranger and then not

687
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:57,360
Speaker 18: knowing his movements for a few hours, and the comment

688
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:01,800
Speaker 18: that he made about having to be a this property

689
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 18: and that there's a concrete poor coming. We know that

690
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 18: a concrete poor was scheduled, We know that the Council

691
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:13,200
Speaker 18: inspectors had signed off for a concrete pool to occur there.

692
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:16,799
Speaker 18: For me, there are more red flags and a much

693
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 18: more compelling argument about Illawong being a burial site than

694
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 18: anywhere else.

695
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have to agree. I have to agree.

696
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:32,279
Speaker 1: It's a tough decision now because we have to work

697
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:35,879
Speaker 1: out how best to approach the people who own this

698
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:40,320
Speaker 1: house of Illawong. They've possibly raised a family there, They've

699
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 1: got a large investment in this house, and they're going

700
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:48,839
Speaker 1: to have complete strangers approaching them to say we have

701
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 1: suspicions about a corpse in the ground of your home.

702
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 1: We're going to need to approach these people with complete

703
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:02,080
Speaker 1: candor and honesty and integrity and a lot of care.

704
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 1: They'll have many questions, why our place, What makes you

705
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:10,719
Speaker 1: think it's possible, Where do you think this might go

706
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 1: if it's true, What do you need.

707
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 2: Us to do? What if we say no?

708
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 19: They're all very legitimate questions, and we need to know

709
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:22,800
Speaker 19: the answers to most of those before we even go there.

710
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:27,359
Speaker 19: We're not going to be disturbing a crime scene yet

711
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:29,920
Speaker 19: because we don't know whether it is a crime scene,

712
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:33,319
Speaker 19: but it is something we have to work out. We

713
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:36,919
Speaker 19: tried up at Lake Ainsworth. In my view, there's much

714
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:42,359
Speaker 19: much more circumstantial evidence pointing to this former building site

715
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,880
Speaker 19: where John Winfield was working in nineteen ninety three, a

716
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:49,560
Speaker 19: site that he had access to, that he potentially had

717
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:54,440
Speaker 19: control of. There are powerful reasons to suspect this place

718
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:57,799
Speaker 19: doesn't mean Robin's there, but it needs to be ruled out.

719
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 19: As you've heard, our intention was to make a low

720
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:27,520
Speaker 19: key visit to the owners of the house that Glenn

721
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:30,880
Speaker 19: Webster built and then lived in with his young family

722
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 19: for several years before selling. Telling the current owners of

723
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:38,319
Speaker 19: our suspicions and then asking them if they would let

724
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 19: us bring in equipment to search would be the hard part.

725
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 19: In September twenty eighteen, journalists and TV news crewise rushed

726
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:49,680
Speaker 19: to a house in Bayview, in Sydney's.

727
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:50,320
Speaker 2: Northern Beaches area.

728
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:54,880
Speaker 1: The proactive police commissioner at the time, Mick Fuller, agreed

729
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:58,080
Speaker 1: that a specialist team needed to conduct a thorough search

730
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:01,560
Speaker 1: and dig in the ground and around a swimming pool.

731
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:04,440
Speaker 1: Here's the Ten Network Sandra Sully.

732
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 20: Stunning developments in Sydney's most notorious cold case murder. Police

733
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:13,280
Speaker 20: have started digging for the remains of missing mum Lynette Dawson.

734
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 20: Two coroners had pointed the finger at her husband, Chris Dawson,

735
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 20: but he has.

736
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:19,320
Speaker 8: Never been charged.

737
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:22,319
Speaker 20: Lynn was a doting mum to two little girls and

738
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 20: a devoted wife who vanished into thin air just after Christmas.

739
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 8: In nineteen eighty two.

740
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:31,720
Speaker 20: Ursula Hagen joins us now from the house. Ursula getting

741
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:35,240
Speaker 20: to this point has been agonizing and long for Lynn's family,

742
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 20: but answers may finally be close.

743
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:42,000
Speaker 21: Well, that's right. Santra police officially reopened this case three

744
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 21: years ago, but it took a podcast, of all things,

745
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 21: to propel it to national and international attention. A desperate

746
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:53,759
Speaker 21: search for answers. Digging in the dirt for the smallest

747
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:59,360
Speaker 21: trace of Lynnette thirty six years after she disappeared. A

748
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:03,319
Speaker 21: concrete extension near the clothesline is being ripped up and

749
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:08,480
Speaker 21: every pile of dirt painstakingly sifted through by hand. Polis

750
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:12,080
Speaker 21: say over five days they'll sift through four areas at

751
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 21: the home where anomalies have previously been found.

752
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:26,040
Speaker 1: The then head of the homicide squad, Scott Cook, was

753
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:29,240
Speaker 1: at the scene to brief reporters.

754
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:31,240
Speaker 2: What's different about this dig is it'll be more extensive.

755
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:34,600
Speaker 15: We're using new technologies as part of this examination.

756
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:37,880
Speaker 21: Any trace of Lynnette, a tooth, a piece of clothing

757
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:40,920
Speaker 21: could be the breakthrough that they need. One thing that

758
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:44,600
Speaker 21: is clear the attention she never got when she disappeared,

759
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:46,000
Speaker 21: or she's getting it now.

760
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:51,839
Speaker 1: Sandra that search was performed with the considerable resources and

761
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:55,960
Speaker 1: budget of the New South Wales Police. It involves specialist

762
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 1: planning and teams of people and modern equipment, and it

763
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:04,160
Speaker 1: was costly. The owners of the house in Bayview were cooperative.

764
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:08,480
Speaker 1: They wanted to know whether linz remains possibly lay beneath.

765
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 1: They lived there happily before and after that search, and

766
00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 1: it didn't recover Lin's remains or anything probative. If the

767
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:21,399
Speaker 1: owners had said no to the police, the search would

768
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:25,840
Speaker 1: have gone ahead anyway. Coroners and police have powers to

769
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 1: order and undertake a search despite the objections of property owners.

770
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 1: Karina Berger understood this and that's what led to her

771
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:39,279
Speaker 1: light bulb moment. Soon after Glenn Taylor had explained that

772
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:42,400
Speaker 1: if he still had the case now as a police detective,

773
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 1: he would go back to the coroner. Karina concluded that

774
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:50,120
Speaker 1: Broman's brother, Andy Reid, would be the best person to

775
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:53,280
Speaker 1: write to the coroner to press for action, but Andy

776
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 1: would need to make a powerful argument. After the filming

777
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:00,680
Speaker 1: in Brisbane had ended, we put our heads together for

778
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:03,319
Speaker 1: the letter, parts of which you are about to hear.

779
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 1: Andy signed it and sent it to the State Coroner.

780
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:12,960
Speaker 1: Theresa O'Sullivan. Magistrate O'Sullivan ran an inquest into the suspected

781
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:17,520
Speaker 1: death of Marian Barter after extraordinary revelations in the podcast

782
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:21,439
Speaker 1: The Lady Vanishes and a relentless pursuit for justice by

783
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:24,880
Speaker 1: Marian's daughter Sally Laden, who lives in Brisbane.

784
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:26,880
Speaker 2: Here is the state.

785
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:30,799
Speaker 1: Coroner reading some of her findings in February twenty twenty four.

786
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:36,560
Speaker 1: She identified another cavalier approach by police. The lack of

787
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:40,280
Speaker 1: police effort pervaded the first two decades in which Marian

788
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:41,400
Speaker 1: was a missing woman.

789
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:44,760
Speaker 22: I find that the nature and adequacy of the police

790
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 22: investigation into the disappearance of Marian by New South Wales

791
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 22: Police between her disappearance in nineteen ninety seven up until

792
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:59,680
Speaker 22: twenty nineteen was not adequate. It is clear from the

793
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:03,360
Speaker 22: evidences that following the initial report made by Sally to

794
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:06,200
Speaker 22: Byron Bay Police Station on the twenty second of October

795
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:10,719
Speaker 22: nineteen ninety seven, that very little was done to investigate

796
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:15,800
Speaker 22: Marion's whereabouts until approximately ten years later in two thousand

797
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:19,719
Speaker 22: and seven. The resistance in this inquest by New South

798
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 22: Wales Police to accept the inadequacies of the initial police

799
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:28,680
Speaker 22: investigation in nineteen ninety seven is difficult to understand in

800
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:32,719
Speaker 22: circumstances where a senior police officer has given what is

801
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:36,720
Speaker 22: essentially expert evidence on what should have happened.

802
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:42,279
Speaker 1: Byron Bay and Lenox Head are neighboring towns. It's only

803
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:46,880
Speaker 1: a short drive from Byron to Lennox. Ten months after

804
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:51,160
Speaker 1: the state Coroner's findings in the Marion Barter case, Andy

805
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:54,960
Speaker 1: Reid began his letter by outlining the background to his

806
00:49:55,120 --> 00:50:00,279
Speaker 1: sister's disappearance. On May sixteen, nineteen ninety three. Andy is

807
00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:02,320
Speaker 1: Bromwin's senior next of kim.

808
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:08,200
Speaker 3: Dear Magistrate O'Sullivan, I am writing to you to respectfully

809
00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:13,160
Speaker 3: request that you issue a coronial investigation scene order in

810
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:17,319
Speaker 3: respect of a property in Ilowong, New South Wales, where

811
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:22,279
Speaker 3: I believe Bromwin's remains or other potentially incriminating evidence may

812
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:27,480
Speaker 3: well be located. Police may not appreciate the potential significance

813
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:28,800
Speaker 3: of the property in.

814
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:34,000
Speaker 1: Ilowng Andy's letter cited a particular piece of legislation from

815
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:37,280
Speaker 1: Section forty of the Coroners Act, which says that.

816
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:40,960
Speaker 16: If a coroner considers that an investigation should for the

817
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:44,520
Speaker 16: purposes of an inquest or inquiry be carried out at

818
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:47,840
Speaker 16: a particular place. A coroner may issue an order in

819
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:51,520
Speaker 16: writing or by telephone to a police officer or other

820
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:57,359
Speaker 16: person to establish a coronial investigation scene at a specified

821
00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:02,960
Speaker 16: place and be exercise coronal investigation seene powers in accordance

822
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:06,400
Speaker 16: with this chapter and see enter and stay at the

823
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:08,080
Speaker 16: place for those purposes.

824
00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:12,680
Speaker 1: Andy explained that in two thousand and two, the then

825
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:17,440
Speaker 1: Deputy State Coroner Karl Milvanovitch, held an inquest in Lismore

826
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:21,839
Speaker 1: to hear evidence about Bromin's presumed death. Karl has been

827
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:23,400
Speaker 1: retired for some years.

828
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:28,400
Speaker 3: The inquest was terminated because the Deputy state coroner was

829
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:33,759
Speaker 3: quote satisfied that the evidence is capable of satisfying a

830
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:37,960
Speaker 3: jury beyond reasonable doubt that a known person has committed

831
00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:42,319
Speaker 3: an indicable offense, and there is a reasonable prospect that

832
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:46,040
Speaker 3: a jury would convict the known person of an indictable

833
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 3: offense end quote. That known person was Bromman's estranged husband,

834
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:54,880
Speaker 3: John Winfield.

835
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:59,080
Speaker 1: Andy then quoted from the letter which he received in

836
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:02,360
Speaker 1: February two, two thousand and three, from the then Director

837
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:07,560
Speaker 1: of Public Prosecutions, Nicholas Cowdery. These are the former DPP's

838
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:11,080
Speaker 1: words from his letter to Andy. It is not Nicholas

839
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:11,960
Speaker 1: Cowdery's voice.

840
00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:16,719
Speaker 23: There is nobody and no known cause of death. While

841
00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:19,279
Speaker 23: Jonathan Winfield is the last known person to have seen

842
00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:21,879
Speaker 23: her alive, there is no evidence that he killed her

843
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:25,799
Speaker 23: or had any role in her disappearance. Suspicion cannot be

844
00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:29,560
Speaker 23: substitution for evidence. My advice to police in the coroner,

845
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:32,799
Speaker 23: after very careful consideration of all the evidence presently available,

846
00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:35,640
Speaker 23: is that there is not sufficient evidence to charge Jonathan

847
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:37,200
Speaker 23: Winfield or any other person.

848
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:42,680
Speaker 1: Andy made another point in his letter to the state Coroner,

849
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:44,000
Speaker 1: Theresa O'Sullivan.

850
00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:48,960
Speaker 3: I note, however, that mister Cowdrey QC reached the same

851
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:52,879
Speaker 3: view in relation to the murder of Lynette Dawson. Nie

852
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 3: Simms and Chris Dawson was prosecuted by a subsequent DPP

853
00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:00,400
Speaker 3: and convicted of her murder.

854
00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:04,480
Speaker 1: And his letter summarized some of the evidence which had

855
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:07,160
Speaker 1: come to light in the first two seasons of the

856
00:53:07,160 --> 00:53:11,960
Speaker 1: Bromwin podcast series. The letter described Judy Singh's citing of

857
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:14,880
Speaker 1: what she believed was a body wrapped in sheets in

858
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:18,000
Speaker 1: the Winfield family's Ford Falcon while it was being driven

859
00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:19,480
Speaker 1: by John late at night.

860
00:53:20,719 --> 00:53:24,320
Speaker 3: Judy says she reported what she saw to local ballin

861
00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:28,080
Speaker 3: of police within weeks of the sixteenth of May nineteen

862
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:33,080
Speaker 3: ninety three and to byron By police about ten years later,

863
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:39,320
Speaker 3: but the police were disinterested. It is unclear what, if anything,

864
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:45,600
Speaker 3: the investigating police previously knew about Judy's sighting of John

865
00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:48,880
Speaker 3: on the sixteenth of May nineteen ninety three, before the

866
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:52,719
Speaker 3: police took a formal statement from Judy in twenty twenty four,

867
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:57,680
Speaker 3: after the relevant podcast episode dropped on the twenty eighth

868
00:53:57,680 --> 00:53:59,480
Speaker 3: of June twenty twenty.

869
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:04,080
Speaker 1: Four, and his letter described John's urgent overnight drive to

870
00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:06,960
Speaker 1: Sydney with the two girls and some of the unusual

871
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:10,080
Speaker 1: circumstances surrounding his movements back in the Shire.

872
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:13,920
Speaker 3: At an unknown time in the morning of the seventeenth

873
00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:17,480
Speaker 3: of May nineteen ninety three, John arrived with the two

874
00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:22,000
Speaker 3: girls at his first wife's, Jennifer Mason's house in Carrybah,

875
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:26,680
Speaker 3: New South Wales, in the family Ford Falcon. He asked

876
00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:30,680
Speaker 3: a woman he and the girls had never met, his

877
00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:35,600
Speaker 3: first wife's, Jennifer Mason's mother in law, Joan Mason, to

878
00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:39,719
Speaker 3: look after the girls. The girls were dressed in pajamas.

879
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:43,680
Speaker 3: John asked Joan Mason if he could leave the two

880
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:46,719
Speaker 3: girls with her as he was in Sydney to do

881
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:51,040
Speaker 3: a big job. Joan agreed to mind the girls and

882
00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:55,319
Speaker 3: John left them with her at Jennifer's home. I and

883
00:54:55,520 --> 00:55:00,120
Speaker 3: others in the podcast team consider this was extremely strong

884
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:05,040
Speaker 3: behavior on John's part. Despite being asked by police about

885
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:08,719
Speaker 3: his movements on the seventeenth of May nineteen ninety three,

886
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:14,560
Speaker 3: John never disclosed to police in his interview or otherwise

887
00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:17,359
Speaker 3: to my knowledge, that he had left the girls with

888
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:22,879
Speaker 3: Joan Mason, a stranger, for several hours. John also did

889
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:27,840
Speaker 3: not disclose this to me or my wife. I consider

890
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:32,520
Speaker 3: that leaving your daughters with a stranger in an unfamiliar

891
00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:37,680
Speaker 3: environment for several hours is likely to be something one

892
00:55:37,760 --> 00:55:42,200
Speaker 3: would remember. I therefore consider this to be a very

893
00:55:42,239 --> 00:55:48,520
Speaker 3: significant and likely deliberate failure to disclose relevant information on

894
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:53,120
Speaker 3: John's part, possibly so as not to arouse suspicion about

895
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:57,040
Speaker 3: his movements and actions on the seventeenth of May nineteen

896
00:55:57,120 --> 00:56:01,840
Speaker 3: ninety three. To my knowledge, has never accounted for his

897
00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:06,000
Speaker 3: movements over several hours during the morning and early afternoon

898
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:10,560
Speaker 3: of the seventeenth of May nineteen ninety three, namely for

899
00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:14,000
Speaker 3: the period after he left the girls at Jennifer Mason's

900
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:18,319
Speaker 3: house with Jane Mason until he registered the family car

901
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:23,560
Speaker 3: at Miranda at three oh seven pm, after which he

902
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:27,799
Speaker 3: collected the girls from Jennifer Mason's house and arrived at

903
00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:32,480
Speaker 3: my home at about four pm. This means John had

904
00:56:32,520 --> 00:56:37,160
Speaker 3: the opportunity to dispose of Bromwin's remains during this period

905
00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:41,560
Speaker 3: of time. John has only been interviewed once by police,

906
00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:45,759
Speaker 3: on the fifth of August nineteen ninety eight. The interviewing

907
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:50,399
Speaker 3: police officers chose to interview John before taking statements from

908
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:55,799
Speaker 3: other witnesses in their investigation. For this reason, they were

909
00:56:55,840 --> 00:57:00,080
Speaker 3: not aware at the time of John's interview of many

910
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:04,760
Speaker 3: of the gaps and inconsistencies in John's version of events.

911
00:57:05,560 --> 00:57:10,440
Speaker 3: In my opinion, there is a strong basis for inferring

912
00:57:10,640 --> 00:57:14,320
Speaker 3: John Winfield left the girls with a stranger, Joan Mason,

913
00:57:15,239 --> 00:57:18,560
Speaker 3: on the morning and early afternoon of the seventeenth of

914
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:22,280
Speaker 3: May nineteen ninety three, so he could dispose of Broman's

915
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:26,280
Speaker 3: body in Sydney. John had brought the girls to my

916
00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:29,400
Speaker 3: home or his brother's home on the morning of the

917
00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:34,000
Speaker 3: seventeenth of May nineteen ninety three, questions would undoubtedly have

918
00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:39,080
Speaker 3: been asked about Bromin's whereabouts and the particular circumstances of

919
00:57:39,640 --> 00:57:43,760
Speaker 3: and reasons for John's overnight traveled to Sydney with the

920
00:57:43,760 --> 00:57:48,920
Speaker 3: girls immediately after his return to Lenox Head from Sydney

921
00:57:49,080 --> 00:57:52,200
Speaker 3: only a few hours earlier, on the evening of the

922
00:57:52,240 --> 00:57:54,120
Speaker 3: sixteenth of May nineteen ninety three.

923
00:57:55,360 --> 00:57:58,240
Speaker 1: If Brombin's body was in the car's boot on that

924
00:57:58,360 --> 00:58:01,720
Speaker 1: Monday morning, the last place which John would want to

925
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:04,640
Speaker 1: be driving to at that time with his two girls

926
00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:06,640
Speaker 1: would be Andy and Michelle's house.

927
00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:08,760
Speaker 2: Andy was at.

928
00:58:08,600 --> 00:58:11,880
Speaker 1: Work in the morning, Michelle was home with a new baby.

929
00:58:12,680 --> 00:58:15,520
Speaker 1: She would be likely to say to John words to

930
00:58:15,640 --> 00:58:18,720
Speaker 1: the effect Okay, you're here, now, let's get your things

931
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:21,840
Speaker 1: out of the boot and you can come inside. The

932
00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:26,120
Speaker 1: risks of the boot lid being opened were excessive, As

933
00:58:26,160 --> 00:58:29,480
Speaker 1: Andy pointed out in his letter to the state coroner,

934
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:33,240
Speaker 1: he and Michelle did in fact seek to access the

935
00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:36,959
Speaker 1: boot to help when John did eventually turn up late

936
00:58:37,080 --> 00:58:41,920
Speaker 1: on the Monday afternoon. Andy's letter described the car John

937
00:58:42,040 --> 00:58:45,680
Speaker 1: drove and the potential carrying capacity of the boot.

938
00:58:46,560 --> 00:58:52,240
Speaker 3: The car was never forensically examined after Brohman's disappearance. It

939
00:58:52,320 --> 00:58:57,480
Speaker 3: was later soul by John Winfield. A podcast listener, Terry

940
00:58:57,520 --> 00:59:01,880
Speaker 3: Freeman his own and worked worked on multiple Ford Falcons

941
00:59:01,960 --> 00:59:06,640
Speaker 3: over the years and is familiar with their operation. In

942
00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:12,320
Speaker 3: November twenty twenty four, Terry located a nineteen eighty six

943
00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:17,320
Speaker 3: Ford Falcon ex F Sedan. He placed a one hundred

944
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:21,000
Speaker 3: liter LPG tank in the boot of the vehicle, and

945
00:59:21,080 --> 00:59:24,600
Speaker 3: his wife, who was of slightly smaller stature than Bromwin,

946
00:59:25,200 --> 00:59:29,800
Speaker 3: easily climbed into and lay down in the boot. This

947
00:59:30,280 --> 00:59:35,280
Speaker 3: establishes it was theoretically possible for John to replace Broman's

948
00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:39,040
Speaker 3: body in the boots of the family car and transported

949
00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:43,320
Speaker 3: her to Sydney on the sixteenth seventeenth of May nineteen

950
00:59:43,600 --> 00:59:48,480
Speaker 3: ninety three. I recall that when I saw the Winfield

951
00:59:48,520 --> 00:59:51,640
Speaker 3: family car boot on the seventeenth of May nineteen ninety three,

952
00:59:52,160 --> 00:59:55,520
Speaker 3: it was incredibly clean and did not have any vinyl

953
00:59:55,560 --> 00:59:59,520
Speaker 3: type lining in it. I could see the metal lining

954
00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:04,120
Speaker 3: of the boot. I also recall John had not brought

955
01:00:04,640 --> 01:00:08,120
Speaker 3: much luggage with him for a stay of several weeks

956
01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:13,200
Speaker 3: in Sydney in winter. He had brought very limited claving

957
01:00:13,280 --> 01:00:15,840
Speaker 3: for the girls, packed in pillow cases.

958
01:00:16,720 --> 01:00:20,120
Speaker 1: But the most important part of Andy Reid's letter to

959
01:00:20,200 --> 01:00:24,920
Speaker 1: State Coroner Theresa O'Sullivan revolves around the house at Illawong,

960
01:00:25,560 --> 01:00:29,440
Speaker 1: the house which was due to receive two significant concrete pause,

961
01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:33,000
Speaker 1: which John Winfield knew about because he was the bricklayer

962
01:00:33,040 --> 01:00:35,960
Speaker 1: there before and after Broman's disappearance.

963
01:00:36,560 --> 01:00:41,600
Speaker 3: To my knowledge, this property has never been searched by police.

964
01:00:42,800 --> 01:00:46,040
Speaker 3: In May nineteen ninety three, it was a vacant block

965
01:00:46,080 --> 01:00:49,320
Speaker 3: of land in a new housing estate that was being

966
01:00:49,560 --> 01:00:53,800
Speaker 3: readied for construction of a two story brick home. The

967
01:00:53,920 --> 01:00:57,640
Speaker 3: land was owned by a sutherlan Shire builder, Glen Webster.

968
01:00:58,560 --> 01:01:03,120
Speaker 3: Glen Webster asked John Winfield, a bricklayer with whom he

969
01:01:03,240 --> 01:01:08,080
Speaker 3: had worked previously, to help build the home. John commenced

970
01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:12,400
Speaker 3: work on the property in April nineteen ninety three. When

971
01:01:12,600 --> 01:01:17,680
Speaker 3: the Websters were interviewed in September nineteen ninety eight, investigating

972
01:01:17,720 --> 01:01:22,400
Speaker 3: police were not necessarily aware of the unusual circumstances of

973
01:01:22,520 --> 01:01:26,360
Speaker 3: John's travel to Sydney on the sixteenth seventeenth of May

974
01:01:26,480 --> 01:01:30,760
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety three, and were definitely not aware of his

975
01:01:31,120 --> 01:01:35,480
Speaker 3: unusual movements and actions on the seventeenth of May nineteen

976
01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:39,880
Speaker 3: ninety three. I am a builder and I am familiar

977
01:01:39,920 --> 01:01:44,400
Speaker 3: with the construction process in the Southern Shire Council. Headley

978
01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:47,440
Speaker 3: asked me whether there might be documents relating to the

979
01:01:47,480 --> 01:01:52,120
Speaker 3: stages of construction of Glenn Webster's house, and.

980
01:01:52,120 --> 01:01:52,760
Speaker 2: He confirmed that.

981
01:01:52,840 --> 01:01:56,640
Speaker 1: He then obtained inspection documents from the archives of the

982
01:01:56,680 --> 01:01:57,560
Speaker 1: Shire Council.

983
01:01:58,400 --> 01:02:03,360
Speaker 3: These show that a Garadh slab inspection was conducted on Thursday,

984
01:02:03,880 --> 01:02:08,720
Speaker 3: thirteenth of May nineteen ninety three, namely three days before

985
01:02:08,760 --> 01:02:15,040
Speaker 3: Bromin's disappearance. I understand this was a pre concrete poor

986
01:02:15,280 --> 01:02:19,680
Speaker 3: slab inspection. The date on which the concrete paul took

987
01:02:19,720 --> 01:02:25,200
Speaker 3: place is not evident from the documents. Glenn Webster cannot

988
01:02:25,200 --> 01:02:28,600
Speaker 3: recall when the concrete poor took place and has not

989
01:02:28,800 --> 01:02:31,760
Speaker 3: been able to locate any relevant documents.

990
01:02:32,640 --> 01:02:36,800
Speaker 1: And his letter then set out the observations of an informant,

991
01:02:37,160 --> 01:02:39,880
Speaker 1: a person who has been in regular contact with me.

992
01:02:40,800 --> 01:02:43,920
Speaker 1: The informant is prepared to make a statement to police

993
01:02:44,080 --> 01:02:45,480
Speaker 1: about the following things.

994
01:02:46,200 --> 01:02:50,560
Speaker 3: They saw John Winfield on the afternoon of the seventeenth

995
01:02:50,600 --> 01:02:54,760
Speaker 3: of May nineteen ninety three and questioned him about what

996
01:02:55,000 --> 01:02:59,840
Speaker 3: seemed to be unusual movements by him. They considered John

997
01:03:00,240 --> 01:03:06,680
Speaker 3: was agitated and quote not himself. They asked John where

998
01:03:06,720 --> 01:03:10,960
Speaker 3: Bromwin was, and why he had rushed down from Lennox

999
01:03:11,040 --> 01:03:14,800
Speaker 3: Head overnight with the girls who were supposed to be

1000
01:03:14,880 --> 01:03:19,000
Speaker 3: in school, and why he was busy. On the seventeenth

1001
01:03:19,080 --> 01:03:24,080
Speaker 3: of May nineteen ninety three, John became angry and quote

1002
01:03:24,760 --> 01:03:28,240
Speaker 3: blurted out and snapped that he had to be back

1003
01:03:28,280 --> 01:03:34,600
Speaker 3: in Sydney four quote, a concrete poor in Sutherlanshire. They

1004
01:03:34,800 --> 01:03:39,919
Speaker 3: considered John's behavior level of agitation and anger over these

1005
01:03:40,000 --> 01:03:47,120
Speaker 3: matters unusual. They considered John appeared to regret having disclosed

1006
01:03:47,200 --> 01:03:49,040
Speaker 3: the concrete pour to them.

1007
01:03:49,720 --> 01:03:50,880
Speaker 1: They had been.

1008
01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:54,800
Speaker 3: Suspicious of the concrete poor for some time in connection

1009
01:03:55,040 --> 01:03:57,280
Speaker 3: with Broman's disappearance.

1010
01:03:57,720 --> 01:03:58,600
Speaker 2: And his letter.

1011
01:03:58,720 --> 01:04:03,560
Speaker 3: Then drew these different pieces of information together, noting John's

1012
01:04:03,600 --> 01:04:07,880
Speaker 3: previous work at Illawong during April and May nineteen ninety three,

1013
01:04:08,560 --> 01:04:11,920
Speaker 3: the garage slab inspection on the thirteenth of May nineteen

1014
01:04:12,000 --> 01:04:16,080
Speaker 3: ninety three, and John's comment to the informant on the

1015
01:04:16,200 --> 01:04:20,600
Speaker 3: afternoon of the seventeenth of May nineteen ninety three that

1016
01:04:20,800 --> 01:04:23,720
Speaker 3: he had to be back in Sydney for a concrete

1017
01:04:23,760 --> 01:04:28,320
Speaker 3: poor in sutherland Shire. It can be inferred that John

1018
01:04:28,720 --> 01:04:34,280
Speaker 3: was referring to an imminent concrete poor at Illowong. Hedley

1019
01:04:34,440 --> 01:04:38,840
Speaker 3: conducted a recorded face to face interview with Glenn Webster

1020
01:04:39,040 --> 01:04:41,680
Speaker 3: on the twelfth of November twenty twenty four.

1021
01:04:43,480 --> 01:04:47,040
Speaker 1: As I understand that that building site was kind of

1022
01:04:47,040 --> 01:04:49,200
Speaker 1: empty unless John was there with you helping it.

1023
01:04:49,400 --> 01:04:49,720
Speaker 2: Correct.

1024
01:04:49,760 --> 01:04:52,000
Speaker 16: I used to go there in the mornings and back

1025
01:04:52,040 --> 01:04:52,959
Speaker 16: in the announce the news.

1026
01:04:54,280 --> 01:04:56,959
Speaker 1: So who would have been there if John were not there?

1027
01:04:57,640 --> 01:05:03,640
Speaker 2: Just John, nobody else? And what sort of activity human activity.

1028
01:05:03,280 --> 01:05:05,560
Speaker 1: Was around that site around that time?

1029
01:05:06,400 --> 01:05:09,280
Speaker 9: Quite a big block alan that was subdivided into about

1030
01:05:09,280 --> 01:05:11,000
Speaker 9: three or four blocks, and I think I was the

1031
01:05:11,040 --> 01:05:11,600
Speaker 9: first time.

1032
01:05:11,520 --> 01:05:13,480
Speaker 2: To get built there, so it would have been quiet.

1033
01:05:13,800 --> 01:05:14,000
Speaker 21: Eh.

1034
01:05:14,200 --> 01:05:14,800
Speaker 2: What if was that?

1035
01:05:16,920 --> 01:05:22,040
Speaker 3: He confirmed that as a bricklayer, John Winfield would not

1036
01:05:22,160 --> 01:05:25,840
Speaker 3: have been needed to help with any concrete pour. Glenn

1037
01:05:25,880 --> 01:05:29,720
Speaker 3: Webster told Headley he was not asked by detectives in

1038
01:05:29,800 --> 01:05:33,920
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety eight about the possibility of Broman's body being

1039
01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:37,920
Speaker 3: concealed in the ground at Ellowong property, which he still

1040
01:05:37,920 --> 01:05:41,640
Speaker 3: owned and lived in at that time, nor was he

1041
01:05:41,800 --> 01:05:45,880
Speaker 3: asked about the possibility when he spoke to detectives from

1042
01:05:45,920 --> 01:05:50,520
Speaker 3: the Unsolved Thomicide Unit during a cold case review of

1043
01:05:50,600 --> 01:05:55,560
Speaker 3: Bromin's case. In about two thousand and nine. Glenn Webster

1044
01:05:55,840 --> 01:05:59,080
Speaker 3: told Hedley he last spoke to police in two thousand

1045
01:05:59,120 --> 01:06:04,440
Speaker 3: and nine. Bromwin's family and friends remain very distressed about

1046
01:06:04,480 --> 01:06:08,440
Speaker 3: her disappearance and the apparent repeated failures by police to

1047
01:06:08,560 --> 01:06:13,960
Speaker 3: conduct proper investigations over the years. After leaving New South

1048
01:06:14,000 --> 01:06:19,360
Speaker 3: Wales Police Glenn Taylor described the initial nineteen ninety three

1049
01:06:19,600 --> 01:06:25,959
Speaker 3: police investigation as quote disgraceful, with no statements taken from

1050
01:06:26,040 --> 01:06:32,480
Speaker 3: any witness, including no statement or interview of John Winfield

1051
01:06:32,960 --> 01:06:37,800
Speaker 3: until nineteen ninety eight, and no crime scene investigation of

1052
01:06:37,920 --> 01:06:44,840
Speaker 3: sixty Sandstone Crescent, Lenoxhead or the family car ever conducted.

1053
01:06:46,000 --> 01:06:50,720
Speaker 3: There is a strong public interest in confirming whether Bromwin's

1054
01:06:50,720 --> 01:06:57,160
Speaker 3: remains or other potentially incriminating evidence have been concealed. I

1055
01:06:57,240 --> 01:07:03,040
Speaker 3: consider the other potentially incriminating evidence could possibly include clothing,

1056
01:07:03,480 --> 01:07:09,640
Speaker 3: bed sheets, the car bootliner and Broman's handbag. Given the

1057
01:07:09,720 --> 01:07:15,000
Speaker 3: matters outlined above, I consider that an investigation should be

1058
01:07:15,040 --> 01:07:19,560
Speaker 3: carried out at Iliwong. I imagine that what might be

1059
01:07:19,680 --> 01:07:24,440
Speaker 3: required could include conducting scans of some of the concrete

1060
01:07:24,600 --> 01:07:28,880
Speaker 3: at the property, drilling into the concrete and using a

1061
01:07:29,040 --> 01:07:34,360
Speaker 3: cadava dog in certain areas before any more fulsome investigation

1062
01:07:34,720 --> 01:07:39,440
Speaker 3: was undertaken. I am acutely aware this would be an

1063
01:07:39,480 --> 01:07:44,439
Speaker 3: intrusion for the occupants of the property. However, I do

1064
01:07:44,480 --> 01:07:48,840
Speaker 3: not consider this would be a significant intrusion, and I

1065
01:07:48,960 --> 01:07:56,280
Speaker 3: consider public interests favors the investigations being conducted in the circumstances.

1066
01:07:56,760 --> 01:08:02,520
Speaker 3: I respectfully request that you issue a coronial investigation scene

1067
01:08:02,680 --> 01:08:08,880
Speaker 3: order a podcast listener. Corona Berger has assisted me to

1068
01:08:08,960 --> 01:08:14,160
Speaker 3: prepare this letter. Carona previously worked as a lawyer with

1069
01:08:14,320 --> 01:08:20,440
Speaker 3: the Australian Government Solicitor and has significant experience in coronial

1070
01:08:20,600 --> 01:08:22,880
Speaker 3: investigation and inquest work.

1071
01:08:24,320 --> 01:08:27,280
Speaker 1: In the first week of December, the letter of some

1072
01:08:27,520 --> 01:08:32,439
Speaker 1: eleven pages was emailed by Andy Reid. Then, of course

1073
01:08:32,520 --> 01:08:35,080
Speaker 1: we all went into the summer break and Christmas and

1074
01:08:35,120 --> 01:08:38,280
Speaker 1: the slowdown which coincides with the cricket and tennis and

1075
01:08:38,320 --> 01:08:41,720
Speaker 1: all the traditional rights of that time of year. This

1076
01:08:41,920 --> 01:08:45,920
Speaker 1: episode twenty one of Bromwin was released as subscribers on

1077
01:08:46,040 --> 01:08:50,360
Speaker 1: February seven. As of that date, Andy was still awaiting

1078
01:08:50,439 --> 01:08:54,160
Speaker 1: a reply from State Coroner Teresa O'Sullivan or a staffer

1079
01:08:54,240 --> 01:09:11,920
Speaker 1: in her office. Bronwyn is written and investigated by me

1080
01:09:12,120 --> 01:09:16,320
Speaker 1: Headley Thomas as a podcast production for The Australian. If

1081
01:09:16,400 --> 01:09:20,639
Speaker 1: anyone has information which may help solve this cold case,

1082
01:09:21,000 --> 01:09:26,560
Speaker 1: please contact me confidentially by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian

1083
01:09:26,800 --> 01:09:28,439
Speaker 1: dot com dot au.

1084
01:09:29,160 --> 01:09:30,480
Speaker 2: You can read more.

1085
01:09:30,280 --> 01:09:33,640
Speaker 1: About this case and see a range of photographs and

1086
01:09:33,880 --> 01:09:39,120
Speaker 1: other artwork at the website Bronwyn podcast dot com. Our

1087
01:09:39,160 --> 01:09:44,439
Speaker 1: subscribers and registered users here episodes first. The production and

1088
01:09:44,800 --> 01:09:50,879
Speaker 1: editorial team for Bromwyn includes Claire Harvey, Kristin Amiot, Joshua Burton, Bridget,

1089
01:09:50,920 --> 01:09:56,599
Speaker 1: Ryan Bianca, far Marcus, Katie Burns, Liam Mendez, Sean Callen

1090
01:09:56,680 --> 01:10:00,960
Speaker 1: and Matthew Condon and David Murray, with assistance from Isaac Iron's.

1091
01:10:01,439 --> 01:10:05,400
Speaker 1: Audio production for this podcast series is by Wasabi Audio

1092
01:10:05,680 --> 01:10:09,960
Speaker 1: and original theme music by Slade Gibson. We have been

1093
01:10:10,000 --> 01:10:14,320
Speaker 1: assisted by Madison Walsh, a relation of Bromwin Winfield. We

1094
01:10:14,400 --> 01:10:17,320
Speaker 1: can only do this kind of journalism with the support

1095
01:10:17,320 --> 01:10:21,360
Speaker 1: of our subscribers and our major sponsors like Harvey Norman.

1096
01:10:22,120 --> 01:10:24,600
Speaker 2: For all of our exclusive stories.

1097
01:10:24,160 --> 01:10:29,640
Speaker 1: Videos, maps, timelines and documents about this podcast and other podcasts,

1098
01:10:29,680 --> 01:10:33,320
Speaker 1: including The Teacher's Pet, The Teachers Trial, The Teacher's Accuser,

1099
01:10:33,640 --> 01:10:37,800
Speaker 1: Shandy's Story, Shandy's Legacy and The Night Driver. Go to

1100
01:10:38,040 --> 01:10:43,240
Speaker 1: the Australian dot com dot au and subscribe.