Speaker 1: She said, it's now never I got fighting in my blood.
Speaker 2: I'm tiff. This is Roll with the Punches and we're
Speaker 2: turning life's hardest hits into wins. Nobody wants to go
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Speaker 2: Lawyers know that they offer all forms of alternative dispute resolution.
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Speaker 2: and financial agreements. Test Art is in your corner, so
Speaker 2: reach out to Mark and the team at www dot
Speaker 2: test Artfamilylawyers dot com dot au. James Kirby, Welcome to
Speaker 2: Roll with the Punches.
Speaker 3: Oh thanks, Teff. Great to be here, like.
Speaker 2: With mirror, like a bit of a mirror version of
Speaker 2: each other when you're like, oh, there was some email
Speaker 2: stack of time ago, and I'm like, yeah, someone, someone
Speaker 2: I can't remember, told me you were awesome, And so
Speaker 2: we're here chatting and we don't know how we arrived here,
Speaker 2: but six eight twelve, I don't know how long the
Speaker 2: December wasn't.
Speaker 3: It was it?
Speaker 2: So I was really relieved to know it was December,
Speaker 2: because I mean, I've got not the most amazing recall.
Speaker 2: At the best of times, I get so excited and
Speaker 2: I just go and I don't leave a paper trail
Speaker 2: for myself. So when it was December, I'm like, thank goodness,
Speaker 2: I have permission to just be blatantly. Hey, don't know,
Speaker 2: don't know who told me to get you on, don't
Speaker 2: know what I thought we'd talk about, but here we are.
Speaker 3: I'm so sorry. Isn't that terrible? But thank you so
Speaker 3: much for having me.
Speaker 2: No, it's great. I feel I'm going to get along
Speaker 2: like a house on fire. And especially when I did
Speaker 2: do a bit of a refresher, who's this? You're into
Speaker 2: some cool stuff that I love talking about. So do
Speaker 2: you want to tell the world what you're into?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Sure, so yeah.
Speaker 4: I'm based at the University of Queensland in the School
Speaker 4: of Psychology. I'm a clinical psychologist. A lot of my
Speaker 4: work is focused on research and compassion, particularly compassion focused
Speaker 4: therapy to help individuals with high levels of self criticism
Speaker 4: and shame and things like that. But I also have
Speaker 4: a look at how compassion kind of develops with children
Speaker 4: and also like sort of organizationally what levers we might
Speaker 4: be able to pull to try to increase the likelihood
Speaker 4: someone might act compassionately, But also what factors might you know,
Speaker 4: sort of stop or block compassion. So those sorts of
Speaker 4: different lab studies, which are always fun.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I bet you've got a really small tagged audience.
Speaker 2: Like everybody.
Speaker 4: It's like what you were sort of mentioning earlier. It's
Speaker 4: if you kind of hear I hear something, I'm going,
Speaker 4: oh my goodness, that's interesting. Oh yes, oh yeah, no,
Speaker 4: that sounds great too, And then all of a sudden
Speaker 4: you're kind of doing so many different things at the
Speaker 4: same time because it's just all I just find it
Speaker 4: also fascinating.
Speaker 2: Yeah, tell me where it started for you, Like when
Speaker 2: did you get into psychology? Was it psychology and then
Speaker 2: finding the past to compassion or like what was what
Speaker 2: did that look like?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 4: My kind of first kind of opening up into this
Speaker 4: world of psychology was through the movie Goodwill Hunting. Don't
Speaker 4: know if I mean it feels like to me everyone
Speaker 4: should know that film. But I was telling students this
Speaker 4: the other day. Is I so hears seeing Goodwill Hunting
Speaker 4: and no one had seen it, And I'm like what,
Speaker 4: But it's about thirty years old now, so that that
Speaker 4: kind of tracks, but disappointingly so from my perspective because
Speaker 4: it just.
Speaker 3: Let me feel old.
Speaker 4: But I watched that movie and just thought it was unbelievable,
Speaker 4: just loved Robin Williams and so on. And I was
Speaker 4: a high school student at the time, was just like, oh,
Speaker 4: my goodness, is this something that one can do with
Speaker 4: one's career.
Speaker 3: And then at university.
Speaker 4: Took some psychology courses of course and finding out all
Speaker 4: these wonderful and bizarre things that the brain does, which
Speaker 4: again I had no idea about, and I found all
Speaker 4: of that just so interesting in terms of what our
Speaker 4: brains can do that can make things difficult for us,
Speaker 4: but also the shortcuts it does to make it a
Speaker 4: bit easier, but then also how social factors can have
Speaker 4: a big influence on our decision making. All this stuff
Speaker 4: just was fascinating. But I always knew deep down I
Speaker 4: wanted to get.
Speaker 5: Into working one on one and with people in clinical psychology.
Speaker 2: It was there anything about learning psychology that that completely
Speaker 2: balsted you where you were like, what, like that wasn't
Speaker 2: what you expected?
Speaker 3: The whole yeah, yeah, the whole thing. Yeah.
Speaker 4: I suppose one of the first was in one lecture.
Speaker 4: In one Yeah one lecture, the student the essa John
Speaker 4: McLain was talking about an effect called the Stroop effect,
Speaker 4: which I'd never heard about before.
Speaker 3: And the Stroop effect is.
Speaker 4: Where you would have the word written and just say
Speaker 4: if it was cook, you know, and it would be
Speaker 4: written in red font, and then say the next word
Speaker 4: might underneath, it might be a book and it would
Speaker 4: be in blue font, and it would just keep going
Speaker 4: like a different words, random words, but with different colored font,
Speaker 4: and you would be asked to read as quickly as
Speaker 4: you can the color of the font.
Speaker 5: But our brain doesn't want to do that. It kind
Speaker 5: of wants to read the word.
Speaker 4: We were so like reading so automated would stuff it up,
Speaker 4: and then to make it a layer of difficulty, they
Speaker 4: would have the words then written, not just random words
Speaker 4: cook and book and stuff. They would actually have the
Speaker 4: word red the word yellow. So that makes it even
Speaker 4: more confusing because.
Speaker 5: Now you're having to read yellow, but in the font
Speaker 5: it would be in which would be blue, say, and
Speaker 5: that would just be very.
Speaker 4: Tricky to do. So you'd have to always having to
Speaker 4: read the color, but you read it again yellow, but
Speaker 4: it's blue. So when we did that as a whole group,
Speaker 4: I was like, Oh my goodness. I didn't realize how
Speaker 4: difficult that would be. And then there was this other
Speaker 4: kind of eye open I just with remembering numbers. So
Speaker 4: we would be told a sequence of numbers like six four, eight, one, nine, seven, eight,
Speaker 4: and you had it go up to about ten, and
Speaker 4: then you'd have to re recall how many of those
Speaker 4: numbers you could remember, And if you had no strategy,
Speaker 4: you could probably do about six to seven. But if
Speaker 4: you chunked the numbers into groups of four, for example,
Speaker 4: you could remember a lot more of those numbers. So
Speaker 4: just some little hacks like that really fascinated me and
Speaker 4: blew my mind open, and.
Speaker 3: It's like, oh goodness, what else is there? And this
Speaker 3: is just the first lecture.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was going to say that. I imagine that
Speaker 2: was really early on. And what I love about that
Speaker 2: is it's actually quite your mind goes, or mind does.
Speaker 2: I'm very inquisitive and curious. My mind goes so deep
Speaker 2: into the meaning and where that can be applied in
Speaker 2: our own lives. And that's like the first thing you learn.
Speaker 2: Like we over complicate so much, but to me just
Speaker 2: hearing that, it's like, oh, we have so much to
Speaker 2: sit down and think about.
Speaker 3: That's right.
Speaker 4: I mean things on the surface seeing very simple, very straightforward,
Speaker 4: getting through things quite easily. But your mind is doing
Speaker 4: all of these complicated shortcuts and things for you to
Speaker 4: kind of navigate through life very easily. I remember, which
Speaker 4: I never spent any time contemplating. And then when you do,
Speaker 4: you kind of go, oh, my goodness, I wonder how
Speaker 4: many times I've made little errors or mistakes And it's
Speaker 4: not because of anything wrong with me, it's just this
Speaker 4: is how it plays out in the mind. So that
Speaker 4: was very freeing in some ways. I remember one professor
Speaker 4: Thomas Suttendorf, in a cognitive psychology like you talk about,
Speaker 4: just asked the question how many door handles are there
Speaker 4: in your home where you're living? Well, like, I think,
Speaker 4: got no idea, He goes, no, no, Just close your
Speaker 4: eyes and slowly go through as if you're walking through
Speaker 4: your house. And if you slow that break close your
Speaker 4: eyes and pretend you're opening the front door. You can
Speaker 4: almost with a very good level of accuracy, get the
Speaker 4: exact number of door handles there are because you kind
Speaker 4: of okay, walk through the front door, and then to
Speaker 4: my right there's another room, and then you can count
Speaker 4: it all up. But if you just had to give
Speaker 4: a straight answer, yes, no idea, but the way the
Speaker 4: mind works again, it's just a little slow. But guiding
Speaker 4: yourself through that, you can then give a very close
Speaker 4: to correct answer.
Speaker 2: When people, So, I guess, think about the people that
Speaker 2: you went to those first through the first level of
Speaker 2: studies with by the time you come out the end
Speaker 2: of that, and you've all learned the same thing. How
Speaker 2: different at the beginning before you've dealt probably gone into
Speaker 2: different areas and dealt with different people and made lots
Speaker 2: of new learnings. How different do you think first level
Speaker 2: psychologists are when they first get out and they've all
Speaker 2: learn the same thing.
Speaker 3: As in like they've all worked walked out with the same.
Speaker 2: Same of the same teachings. This is what you learned,
Speaker 2: this is now what you know. Go and start working
Speaker 2: with humans.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and working So, I guess psychology is so diverse.
Speaker 4: So after you finish your your fourth year of study,
Speaker 4: so usually that would be three year undergrad and a
Speaker 4: fourth year honors, psychology can work. You can work in
Speaker 4: many different areas, so you can kind of work a lot.
Speaker 4: A lot of people finish their fourth year, they might
Speaker 4: work as an analyst for you know, the strange tax
Speaker 4: office or mains transport or something like that. Because one
Speaker 4: thing psychologists are trained very well in is measurement and
Speaker 4: methodology and trying to interpret hang on, can we actually
Speaker 4: conclude that based on the data that we collected? And
Speaker 4: we also get trained a lot in analysis statistical analysis.
Speaker 4: Now that's not what I anticipated when I started psychology,
Speaker 4: but about half our courses are stats and research methods,
Speaker 4: so you to get trained very strongly on that, and
Speaker 4: that can be a bit of an eye opener for
Speaker 4: many people. And then it's not until after that you
Speaker 4: then will enroll in a master's degree, which would then
Speaker 4: be another two years of say Masters of Clinical Psychology.
Speaker 4: But there's also a host of other different programs all pside,
Speaker 4: and someone's brought to exercise where in that postgraduate study
Speaker 4: you can then sort of work one on one with people. Now,
Speaker 4: when it gets to that master's level and you're doing
Speaker 4: that two years, we're kind of constantly assessed on our competencies,
Speaker 4: so like, can you display these kinds of skill sets?
Speaker 3: And so yes, there is.
Speaker 4: A lot of kind of by that point, because you're
Speaker 4: so watched and monitored and assessed that you're meeting the
Speaker 4: basic competency. There is a lot of yeah, we're all
Speaker 4: going out with it with a similar set of skills,
Speaker 4: well very close to similar set of skills as you
Speaker 4: kind of hope, because we're registered by you know, Australian
Speaker 4: health regulatory bodies. But when you've been in it's so diverse.
Speaker 4: It's so diverse what people have walked away with as
Speaker 4: the key learnings. You know.
Speaker 3: I have some friends who.
Speaker 4: Work in expert testimonies for like eyewitness identification, and other
Speaker 4: people kind of work in marketing for you know, how
Speaker 4: to get people interested in clicking on your kind of brand,
Speaker 4: and then other people who are working, you know, with
Speaker 4: air traffic control trying to work out best safety procedures
Speaker 4: and stuff like that. So you can just apply it
Speaker 4: in so many diverse ways, which I think is one
Speaker 4: of the one of the strengths of a psychology agree.
Speaker 4: But also for some that's a bit scary, you know,
Speaker 4: because it's not kind of clear this is exactly what
Speaker 4: I'm going to do.
Speaker 3: With my degree.
Speaker 4: In fact, it can be used in so many different ways. Actually,
Speaker 4: where do I want to take it.
Speaker 2: I don't know for someone who's had almost a thousand
Speaker 2: conversations that heavily lean into human psychology and talking to psychologists,
Speaker 2: and I've just learned something for the first time. I
Speaker 2: never realized the breadth of what avenue that can take
Speaker 2: you down. That was unexpected.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, no, I think for most when they get
Speaker 4: into it, go into thinking I'll end up working, you know,
Speaker 4: essentially as a clinical psychologist like Fraser Crane or something
Speaker 4: like that off the television, or Freud or something like
Speaker 4: that that springs to mind. But really, you know, psychologists
Speaker 4: are interested in a lot of ways human behavior and
Speaker 4: just trying to work out what kind of drives it
Speaker 4: and how can we use that, and of course, then
Speaker 4: as you mentioned earlier, that can just be applied in
Speaker 4: so many different ways.
Speaker 2: So what angle did you take? Where did you run
Speaker 2: off to when you school doors?
Speaker 4: Yes, I got into clinical psychology because of goodwill hunting,
Speaker 4: and then after I finished my masters, I did what
Speaker 4: they call it a combined master's.
Speaker 3: PhD, which I call a clinical p HD.
Speaker 4: So post masters, I was working in private practice for
Speaker 4: a while, working in a couple of different hospitals as well,
Speaker 4: I still do private practice, but now I also have
Speaker 4: an academic job at the university where I researched, that
Speaker 4: was the PhD. So I wasn't sure if I wanted
Speaker 4: to work straight as a researcher or as a clinician.
Speaker 4: So doing both allowed that flexibility and I leaned in
Speaker 4: the early days more on practicing, and now I have
Speaker 4: moved more into the research.
Speaker 2: And did you know what you wanted? Was it the
Speaker 2: area of research that took you to researching or was
Speaker 2: it I want to research? What the hell am I
Speaker 2: going to? Well? What is here and what am I
Speaker 2: interested in? And what can I find?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 4: Exactly, I don't know. Really, I think a bit of both.
Speaker 4: Like I knew for my PhD, I wanted to do
Speaker 4: something that would have use, like it would be applied.
Speaker 4: And a guy at the University of Queensland called Professor
Speaker 4: Matt sand has developed this program called the Triple P
Speaker 4: Positive pair In Program and this was a program that
Speaker 4: he developed like.
Speaker 3: In the I want to say, early nineties.
Speaker 4: It's been around for a long time now, but it
Speaker 4: was to help parents, you know, with the raising of
Speaker 4: the children, with raising of their children, particularly in the
Speaker 4: early days for children who were the parents were really
Speaker 4: struggling with with some kind of emotion or behavioral kind
Speaker 4: of difficulty. So I thought, oh, I wouldn't mind doing
Speaker 4: something in that space. It kind of feels like I
Speaker 4: could learn something really valuable maybe that I could use
Speaker 4: eventually because I'd hope to become a parent.
Speaker 3: But also secondly, you know a lot of programs that developed.
Speaker 4: By Triple P are then rolled out and people are
Speaker 4: trained in and it can have direct impact for clients.
Speaker 4: So I was really interested in that and developed a
Speaker 4: version of the program for grandparents and that was kind
Speaker 4: of specifically for grandparents who were doing a lot of
Speaker 4: childcare of the grandkids. So you know, at least twelve
Speaker 4: to thirteen hours a week and a lot of instances.
Speaker 4: All of that works very.
Speaker 3: Well that arrangement.
Speaker 4: But I was interested in those situations where there was
Speaker 4: a bit of tension and conflict between parent and grandparents
Speaker 4: about how things were done and trying to help help
Speaker 4: those families, and so I got into so I developed
Speaker 4: a program called Grandparent Triple P, which is part of
Speaker 4: the Triple P suite of programs, and got to run
Speaker 4: groups with grandparents trying to help them manage that and
Speaker 4: so really enjoyed that, loved that, and got trained in
Speaker 4: a bunch of other Triple PA programs, and that was
Speaker 4: kind of my introduction to a lot of clinical work.
Speaker 4: But then since then i've kind of you know, you
Speaker 4: continue with your curiosity, you continued professional development which were
Speaker 4: required to do, and stumbled into compassion focused therapy, which
Speaker 4: has kind of been my focus now for the last
Speaker 4: fifteen years.
Speaker 2: Probably, yeah, awesome, all right, I love that I have done.
Speaker 2: I've talked about compassion before, but I know I sought
Speaker 2: you out of this conversation because I think I'm interested
Speaker 2: in the science of compassion. I'm interested in this stuff
Speaker 2: that we just don't think about when it comes to compassion.
Speaker 2: So I want to know fifteen years worth of knowledge
Speaker 2: in the next forty five minutes. If that's good, easy.
Speaker 4: Easy, easy, and that borous, we won't need forty five.
Speaker 6: No.
Speaker 4: I mean, when you start out, you know you've got
Speaker 4: that beginner's mind.
Speaker 3: You know you're just exploring.
Speaker 4: And I think your question I was like, I was
Speaker 4: really wanting to do something apply that could be of use,
Speaker 4: that people could could take away with and their life
Speaker 4: might be slightly easier or better, and that got me
Speaker 4: into the triple P stuff. But equally, as you're doing research,
Speaker 4: it's so it's just fun. It's starting to think about, Okay, well,
Speaker 4: what are we trying to do, what are we hoping
Speaker 4: to do, what have others done? What things can we
Speaker 4: do to make this happen? And that's just a lot
Speaker 4: of brainstorming and conversations amongst your colleagues, trying to improve
Speaker 4: the nature of the work you're doing to answer some
Speaker 4: kind of fundamental question. And then you get to test
Speaker 4: it to see if it comes out the way you
Speaker 4: hypothesized or not. And I just find that itself just
Speaker 4: such a I guess, a privileged position to have to
Speaker 4: be able to all your life just go, okay, let's
Speaker 4: test this out.
Speaker 3: Let's test this out.
Speaker 4: And then you've got these really smart PhD students who
Speaker 4: want to do this stuff as well, and other colleagues,
Speaker 4: and all of a sudden your idea gets transformed into
Speaker 4: something even better than what you originally thought it could be.
Speaker 4: And then you see what findings you get. And then
Speaker 4: if you don't get what you anticipate, that's really interesting
Speaker 4: because you're like, oh goodness, okay, there's something going on here.
Speaker 4: Maybe it's our design, or maybe it's the program, whatever
Speaker 4: it might be. So you get to have a lot
Speaker 4: of fun. So that's just very rewarding that process in
Speaker 4: and of itself. But yes, I got into compassion, and
Speaker 4: so because I had done a lot of work in parenting,
Speaker 4: I initially tried to bring a compassion focus into the
Speaker 4: parenting work I was doing. And so I'd read read
Speaker 4: a lot of Paul Gilbert Nef and others who had
Speaker 4: done a lot to work in this space.
Speaker 3: It was kind of guided by that.
Speaker 4: But what becomes very quick is you kind of think
Speaker 4: you've got a sense of what it is, and then
Speaker 4: the more you read about, the more you do it,
Speaker 4: the more experiment about it, it's like, oh, goodness is
Speaker 4: complicated and messy, and there are all these ifs, butts,
Speaker 4: and ors related to it. So on the surface, it
Speaker 4: seems simple, like the definition I use is compassions to
Speaker 4: sensitivity to suffering, either in yourself or in others, and others.
Speaker 3: Could be any sentient creature. And that's the first part.
Speaker 4: And then the second part is then trying to do
Speaker 4: something to alleviate or prevent it, which is kind of
Speaker 4: the second part. And on the surface, again, that seems
Speaker 4: pretty straightforward, kind of helpful, pro social behavior. But then
Speaker 4: the way this kind of operates will depend on so
Speaker 4: many different factors. I think one of the easiest ones
Speaker 4: to use as an example is that kind of compassionate
Speaker 4: tendency we have works very well for the people we like,
Speaker 4: but as soon as we change that target from someone
Speaker 4: we like to someone we dislike, our willingness to do
Speaker 4: compassionate behavior drops massively. So I just like doing those
Speaker 4: sorts of things, trying to work out, Okay, what things
Speaker 4: can we shift which will influence likelihood of seeing compassionate
Speaker 4: behavior or not.
Speaker 2: I just returned to which I hadn't been for quite
Speaker 2: a while. Just up the road for me. There's a
Speaker 2: weekly meditation class from a Buddhist center in the city.
Speaker 2: And obviously the word compassion is filtered throughout almost doesn't
Speaker 2: matter where you go to talk about that word is
Speaker 2: just repeated all of the time. But I love the
Speaker 2: mind rabbit holes that those simple yet super complex teachings
Speaker 2: that they do right before throwing you into a little
Speaker 2: meditation is. Yeah, it's what do people think compassion is?
Speaker 2: That it's not? Are there things that people call compassion
Speaker 2: or think a compassion that aren't.
Speaker 3: That aren't compassion? Yeah?
Speaker 4: Absolutely, I mean absolutely. I mean a lot of the time,
Speaker 4: there's a lot of overlap, like a lot of ven
Speaker 4: diagram overlap between a lot of these concepts. But you know,
Speaker 4: in every day vernacular, you know, layperson language, we do
Speaker 4: use certain terms interchangeably, but they are slightly different. So,
Speaker 4: I mean, one clear one is compassion and kindness. So
Speaker 4: people will use those two words is if they're the
Speaker 4: same thing, and they're very similar. But kindness is more
Speaker 4: anchored in trying to create happiness or an improved sense
Speaker 4: of well being in the other but is towards you
Speaker 4: flourishing and being happy, and that's really important, you know.
Speaker 4: So things that will be like a kindness act would
Speaker 4: be like a gesture or a favor for you, may
Speaker 4: buying you something that I know will make you happy,
Speaker 4: whereas compassion is anchored and suffering. So you know, I'd
Speaker 4: be like, Okay, what's you know, Tiff.
Speaker 3: Is really sad? What can I do to help with
Speaker 3: her sadness?
Speaker 4: So trying to zero in on the sadness and try
Speaker 4: to do something related to that. So with kindness, you
Speaker 4: don't have to have suffering involved for me to be
Speaker 4: kind to you, whereas with compassion, we're doing something to
Speaker 4: address whatever the suffering is. Now, they could still be
Speaker 4: the same act, but it's just in one instance, the
Speaker 4: act is trying to reduce your suffering because it's addressing
Speaker 4: this particular emotion or painful difficulty, whereas in the other instance, no,
Speaker 4: the act is you know, could just say being spending
Speaker 4: giving up my time to really listen to you, but
Speaker 4: that active listening could be for you to share a
Speaker 4: real positive experience and award you just want, or some
Speaker 4: kind of really cool experience you've had. Me listening to
Speaker 4: that is kind of like me showing kindness towards you
Speaker 4: and wanting to show that I'm interested in you, and
Speaker 4: you get that opportunity to share that fun. Whereas that
Speaker 4: active listening and being tuned in in time towards someone's
Speaker 4: suffering talk about sad and the same act, but here
Speaker 4: I'm trying to connect into that person's suffering and help
Speaker 4: them not feel alone with that, and I'm trying to
Speaker 4: reduce that suffering. It's not to make them happy, but
Speaker 4: it's trying to respect and connect with the pain that
Speaker 4: they're in.
Speaker 2: I'm guessing it takes quite a high level of self
Speaker 2: awareness really then for someone to identify if an act
Speaker 2: that they are doing is coming from truly from a
Speaker 2: place of kindness versus compassion.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, sometimes it's best not to try to
Speaker 4: overcomplicate it.
Speaker 2: That's not sometimes than of over complicating everything games.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean some you know, so sometimes you know,
Speaker 4: I've got a book out called Choose Compassion and that
Speaker 4: I sort of talk a little bit about how kind
Speaker 4: acts can be the gateways into more compassionate moments.
Speaker 3: So you know, if just say, tif you lost your cash.
Speaker 4: Or something like that, or you've lost something really important
Speaker 4: to you, rather than connecting to the grief immediately and
Speaker 4: kind of you know, tell me what you're thinking about,
Speaker 4: telling me what's going on to I might.
Speaker 3: Bake you a lasagna, thing like that.
Speaker 4: Let's not just get to michaels A Garfield, but I
Speaker 4: might bring you up, bring others like cook a meal
Speaker 4: to make your life a little bit easier, maybe make
Speaker 4: you just you remember that you know you loved and
Speaker 4: stuff like that. So I'm not going into addressing the
Speaker 4: core of the suffering, but I'm trying to kind of
Speaker 4: do something of a kindness to know that you know
Speaker 4: you're connected. We want the best for you, and dropping
Speaker 4: that off and talking to you for a little bit
Speaker 4: might then open up to you wanting to connect. It
Speaker 4: might not, but it might lead you to want to go, yeah,
Speaker 4: it's been it's been really tough, and then all of
Speaker 4: a sudden you get moving more into a compassionate kind
Speaker 4: of orientation. What we've done in research, for example, is
Speaker 4: if you change the target towards someone you like versus
Speaker 4: someone you dislike, if you had to do kind acts
Speaker 4: for them. That's where we see a lot of difference
Speaker 4: between kindness and compassion playing out in everyday life. So
Speaker 4: if it's a person you like, you will do and
Speaker 4: compassionate things for them all of the time ten out
Speaker 4: of ten. But if it's someone you dislike and that
Speaker 4: person is suffering, you will still want to do something
Speaker 4: compassionate for them, just not to the same degree as
Speaker 4: if it was a like person, but more like a
Speaker 4: five or six out of ten, not a ten out
Speaker 4: of ten. But if it was do this kind act
Speaker 4: for this person you dislike, it drops down to zero.
Speaker 4: There's no way I want to do this kind act
Speaker 4: for you, know, Samantha, because she did X, Y, and
Speaker 4: Z to me and I don't like it, But if
Speaker 4: Samantha is struggling and hurting, we still tend to go okay, yes,
Speaker 4: despite that, I want to do something to help because
Speaker 4: that kind of sucks. So I think that's important on
Speaker 4: like a global scale, because a lot of memes will
Speaker 4: hear are things like, you know, be kind to everyone
Speaker 4: you meet because you don't know what they're going through.
Speaker 4: But if that target is someone you dislike, telling them
Speaker 4: people to be kind act as an immediate barrier towards
Speaker 4: helpful behavior, whereas I would argue, yeah, try to be
Speaker 4: compassionate to.
Speaker 3: Everyone you meet because you never know what they're going through.
Speaker 4: Has less less of a barrier. But yeah, just little
Speaker 4: things like that.
Speaker 2: What work do we need to do when we are
Speaker 2: that person and want to move the needle? But it's hard,
Speaker 2: Like I've been that person, and I consider that a
Speaker 2: lot like I have. We have this relationship with Okay,
Speaker 2: I understand that hurt people hurt people, and I understand
Speaker 2: that everybody's got there. Nobody's behavior is because they just
Speaker 2: turned up in this happy life and wanted to be
Speaker 2: an asshole. But when something's hurt us, how do we
Speaker 2: heal the hurt in us enough to be able to
Speaker 2: reach that level of compassion against people that we don't
Speaker 2: want to.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that's the million dollar questions. That's a
Speaker 3: million dollar questions.
Speaker 2: The monks haven't quite got me all the way there yet.
Speaker 2: You know, we're sitting in met we're contum planning.
Speaker 3: That's right.
Speaker 4: I mean, spiritual traditions have been trying to kind of
Speaker 4: connect into this millennia. You know, how do we expend, sorry,
Speaker 4: how do we expand our moral concern towards others who
Speaker 4: we typically don't consider worthy or perhaps we even deem
Speaker 4: you know, the causes of our suffering?
Speaker 3: So how do we work with that?
Speaker 4: And there's no clear right answer there, but one of
Speaker 4: the ways we can and research kind of backst is,
Speaker 4: you know, if we can anchor ourselves in compassion. So
Speaker 4: sometimes with compassion, one of the key things is to
Speaker 4: recognize and this is what we sometimes do in therapy
Speaker 4: is kind of like, you know, if you've been hurt
Speaker 4: by someone, you don't have to be their best friend,
Speaker 4: like you know, the idea, the goal isn't necessarily so
Speaker 4: let's just address that. Firstly, if you have been hurt
Speaker 4: by someone if you're wanting to connect with them again
Speaker 4: and try to change that relationship, that is not therefore
Speaker 4: me and the relationship has to be one where you
Speaker 4: see them as your best friend. You're going to spend
Speaker 4: every moment together, We're all going to be lovey dovey. No,
Speaker 4: not necessarily. Sometimes the first thing with compassion is recognizing, hey,
Speaker 4: you hurt me, and that really hurt, but I'm not
Speaker 4: going to hurt you back. So one of the most
Speaker 4: important things is well, as a compassion and intention, you know,
Speaker 4: we want to kind of reduce suffering, but even if
Speaker 4: that doesn't seem to be possible, and we certainly don't
Speaker 4: want to be the cause of further suffering, and so
Speaker 4: it might be a case of, well, rather than going
Speaker 4: tip for tat on the hurt and you hurt me,
Speaker 4: so I'm going to hurt you back, until.
Speaker 3: We're kind of even a kind of compassion orientation.
Speaker 4: We'd be okay, well, I'm not going to hurt you,
Speaker 4: and then you can start to at least start to
Speaker 4: move into the process of forgiveness.
Speaker 3: But again that's really, really, really tricky.
Speaker 4: And again, forgiveness doesn't mean you forget, of course not,
Speaker 4: but it's kind of again trying to look at this
Speaker 4: from a compassion orientation. You know, not only have you
Speaker 4: got one one eye on the target that you're invested in,
Speaker 4: and so this is your deliberate choice. This is something
Speaker 4: I'm literally trying to do because I want to change
Speaker 4: the nature of this relationship. But as I'm focusing on
Speaker 4: this other, there will be things that will be coming
Speaker 4: up within me as well. So one of the most
Speaker 4: important things in our kind of compassion focused therapy approach,
Speaker 4: which Paul Gilbert founded, was this idea of flow of compassion.
Speaker 4: So that's the compassion going out towards the other, but
Speaker 4: how you had been self compassion and also how are
Speaker 4: you at receiving compassion from other people? So you know,
Speaker 4: as you're going through and addressing that, you always want
Speaker 4: to check in with your flow. And as it's going
Speaker 4: out towards a person that you've got in mind as
Speaker 4: the target, you know they might not be prepared already
Speaker 4: yet for the nature of that relationship to change, or
Speaker 4: for them to even address the hurt that they may have,
Speaker 4: cause they might not be at that point yet either.
Speaker 3: So it becomes very tricky. No one's fault, it's just
Speaker 3: kind of it's just tricky.
Speaker 2: It's I was having to chat with somebody yesterday, a
Speaker 2: good friend, and she's got a lot, a lot of
Speaker 2: different things going on and you know, having a hell
Speaker 2: of a year, and was talking about as she's starting
Speaker 2: to come out of that, one of her beautiful friends
Speaker 2: had had given a beautiful gift, like a really generous
Speaker 2: support for something that she's got coming up, and she
Speaker 2: just was really struggling to accept it. And I remember
Speaker 2: just going, you stop, like park it, park yourself for
Speaker 2: two years except that and go in two years if
Speaker 2: I'm in a better place, Like this person wants to
Speaker 2: give you this to help you, and you're standing in
Speaker 2: the way of them having the effect of their own kindness,
Speaker 2: Like they're giving you a gift, And imagine if you
Speaker 2: were in the position to give that gift, how good
Speaker 2: you would feel, And you're stopping them from feeling good.
Speaker 2: Because why do we struggle to have self compassion and
Speaker 2: accept compassion? Yeah?
Speaker 4: Yeah, the two most ones we have difficulty with receiving
Speaker 4: compassion from others than self compassion. So if I was
Speaker 4: to ask a group, and so that's what we do
Speaker 4: in a group, We kind of go through what they'd
Speaker 4: like to do. If you have the choice, speak passion
Speaker 4: towards another, be self compassionate, or receive compassion.
Speaker 3: Everyone goes, oh, you'd like to give it. That's the
Speaker 3: way they all want to do.
Speaker 4: Which is really interesting because there's all these acts of
Speaker 4: compassion going out, But who we're receiving these acts? Are
Speaker 4: they even aware they receiving these acts or has it
Speaker 4: been forced down their necks? So, I mean, that's funny
Speaker 4: and not itself. I mean, there's lots of different I mean,
Speaker 4: this is such a psychology response. I'm sorry, but there
Speaker 4: are so many different reasons as.
Speaker 3: To why we can struggle.
Speaker 4: Some of the key ones, some of the more common
Speaker 4: ones in terms of like receiving compassion from another is
Speaker 4: you know typic. We talk about this role of reciprocity,
Speaker 4: and so the idea is is kind of like, you know,
Speaker 4: if I've received compassion or kindness from someone, if I
Speaker 4: know them and we're in a long standing relationship, I'd
Speaker 4: be more willing to accept it because I know I'll
Speaker 4: have the chance to reciprocate and give it back.
Speaker 3: And so we don't like not.
Speaker 4: Having balanced relationships. We like things to have a feeling
Speaker 4: of a sense of I'm there for them when they
Speaker 4: need it, and they're there for me when they need
Speaker 4: it or when I need it. So and so it's
Speaker 4: the same for like to Sometimes I use the example
Speaker 4: of myself.
Speaker 3: You know, I was a dad.
Speaker 4: With my second kiddo. I was just at the supermarket
Speaker 4: at the shops at the conveyor belt, had little Sophia,
Speaker 4: who's my second, in the baby pouch kind of thing,
Speaker 4: and my younger by old the boy Fletch, who was
Speaker 4: about three and a half at the time, and I
Speaker 4: was trying to put the stuff in the trolley on
Speaker 4: a conveyor belt. And as I was doing that, of
Speaker 4: course because of west fears head was it hit the trolley.
Speaker 3: Good dad moment exactly.
Speaker 4: So She's crying, and then Fletcher's crying because fears crying.
Speaker 4: And then this guy came over to me here, let
Speaker 4: me help you put your gear up and said, oh mate,
Speaker 4: it's all right, I've got it, and he walked away
Speaker 4: and he took a moment when in my other self
Speaker 4: talk you idiot.
Speaker 3: Why did you say no to help? And again, because
Speaker 3: you know many different reasons.
Speaker 4: One is you don't want to be a burden and
Speaker 4: stuff like that, and it's like, no, I can manage this.
Speaker 5: I can do it.
Speaker 4: But also secondly, it's a stranger, and I won't have
Speaker 4: that chance to repay, to help repay the favor.
Speaker 3: So sometimes we can feel like we then carry this debt.
Speaker 3: You know, there's this.
Speaker 4: Debt of help I've received, and I want to be
Speaker 4: able to repay it, but I'm never going.
Speaker 3: To see you again. It's a one off.
Speaker 4: But thankfully I said to myself very quickly, you idiot,
Speaker 4: you do all this research in this space, ask for help,
Speaker 4: you desperately need it.
Speaker 5: So I just said, mate, actually it would be amazing
Speaker 5: if you could help me.
Speaker 3: And it was great. It came back, did it little
Speaker 3: for us, It was terrific. But that's just the very
Speaker 3: I use that example.
Speaker 4: It's so benign, like it's just such a simple mundane task,
Speaker 4: you know, putting your trolley stuff on the conveyor belt.
Speaker 4: But even in something as simple as that, we can
Speaker 4: have a tendency to say no. So some of those
Speaker 4: things can be burdened not being able to repay the favor.
Speaker 4: For example, sometimes it can be factors I'm characteristic of
Speaker 4: the person, so we might go I don't want to
Speaker 4: be helped by that kind of person because I get
Speaker 4: the feeling that they're only helping to get off on it,
Speaker 4: so they're not really helping to help me. They're helping
Speaker 4: because they want to feel good about it. I'm not
Speaker 4: going to give you that kind of sense of satisfaction.
Speaker 4: So there can be that kind of domain or element.
Speaker 3: To it as well.
Speaker 4: So but yeah, yes, you know, lots of other embarrassing
Speaker 4: don't think I'm deserving lots of differentferent things like that embarrassment.
Speaker 2: I always talk about how we are these emotional beings,
Speaker 2: right that have emotional reactions to everything and then act
Speaker 2: and then justify. And I was just thinking then as
Speaker 2: you told that story, I hadn't even thought of this.
Speaker 2: Yesterday when I was at the gym and I was
Speaker 2: a bit tired, so I was on the bench press
Speaker 2: and it was heavier than it should have been. I
Speaker 2: was like, and one of the guys there who's always
Speaker 2: there but we never really interacted, he was. He just
Speaker 2: looked up and goes, oh, did you want a spot
Speaker 2: for the next And I was before I even it
Speaker 2: was funny because when I think of it now, I
Speaker 2: hadn't I wasn't present yet in what he was saying,
Speaker 2: I just went on, no, no, that's cool. I'm not
Speaker 2: going to go as heavy. And then I was sitting
Speaker 2: there going, that's not like, he's not a creepy dude,
Speaker 2: go on hoop. It wasn't like wasn't creepy. It was like,
Speaker 2: there's a guy that you never interact with that is
Speaker 2: always here when you're here, and it'd be nice. It's
Speaker 2: nice when you make friends at the gym, or at
Speaker 2: least like if I saw someone and I wanted to
Speaker 2: spot them or help them in their training, I would
Speaker 2: love it if they accepted that. And I was just like,
Speaker 2: I wish I did. Why did I answer so quick?
Speaker 2: What was that quick propensity to go, oh no, no, it's fine,
Speaker 2: I won't get in the way. I don't want to
Speaker 2: bother you. I don't want it. I don't know what
Speaker 2: that was.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, a lot of it is. It can be
Speaker 4: just social discourse. You know, we've just this part of
Speaker 4: our society. You know, it's kind of like, you know,
Speaker 4: I don't want to you know, just kind of get
Speaker 4: on with it, you know, just that kind of mentality
Speaker 4: that kind of infiltrates through right from when you're a
Speaker 4: youngster to to to an adult, a thinking, mature adult
Speaker 4: who is able to receive it. But just the automaticity
Speaker 4: of no, it's fine, I've got this, thanks mate, she's sweet.
Speaker 3: It can be the immediate.
Speaker 4: Response and that's that's fine. In some ways that can
Speaker 4: be that can be beneficial, but at other times it
Speaker 4: does something about you as a person. It's just you're
Speaker 4: engaging in the everyday backwards and forwards. I mean to
Speaker 4: give you an example of this, and this is what
Speaker 4: we sometimes use and approach a therapy called like feedback
Speaker 4: and form therapy. Is often when we're looking for feedback,
Speaker 4: we'll say something, oh, how was that, you know, and
Speaker 4: we'll say, oh, yeah, no, it was good, it was good.
Speaker 4: And we sometimes use the example if you go to
Speaker 4: a restaurant and the waiter says, how was your meal,
Speaker 4: and we'll often just get engaged in and just like, yeah,
Speaker 4: it was good, it was good.
Speaker 3: Meanwhiles it was terrible, it was dry, toast, very nice.
Speaker 3: You're just being polite. Yeah, no, good, it was good.
Speaker 4: It's all right, thank you. So we just say that
Speaker 4: and then they walk away. But if the waiter had
Speaker 4: framed it a little bit differently, like, oh, hey, we're
Speaker 4: just playing within you menu. We haven't tried this one before.
Speaker 4: There are a couple of little things we're trying out
Speaker 4: for the first time. We're unsure exactly how the meals
Speaker 4: are landing. How did you find your meal tonight? Framing
Speaker 4: in a little bit differently like that encourages, it kind
Speaker 4: of invites more a response that still might not be
Speaker 4: of maybe it was terri but it might invite a
Speaker 4: little bit more feedback than what you otherwise might get.
Speaker 4: And so the idea is in our kind of getting
Speaker 4: through life just our social norms, and people have got
Speaker 4: lots of things doing. I think we just try to
Speaker 4: you know, we have these kind of norms implanted on
Speaker 4: us from youngsters and we just roll with it. But
Speaker 4: if you can wake up to that moment as you
Speaker 4: did and go, you know what, Actually it would have
Speaker 4: been nice to get a spot the next time, you
Speaker 4: might be more open to the possibility of getting some
Speaker 4: help there and that'd be great.
Speaker 2: Just compassion and self compassion Should it function hand in hand?
Speaker 2: Is it? Do you need to have it to give it?
Speaker 4: I mean this has been looked at a lot by
Speaker 4: different different people around the place. No, you can be
Speaker 4: very good at giving and useless at self compassion. Yeah,
Speaker 4: So there are many in the health professions, for example,
Speaker 4: who self sacrifice themselves.
Speaker 3: They're just constantly helping other people.
Speaker 5: I can think of, you know, a couple of doctors
Speaker 5: and nurses personally who I know that I would trust
Speaker 5: them well with my children's lives.
Speaker 3: But I know they are.
Speaker 4: Absolute awful monsters to themselves and how they criticize, and
Speaker 4: part of that is probably tied up in their perfectionism,
Speaker 4: all right, And so you know, part of their perfectionistic
Speaker 4: striving is they're incredibly self critical towards themselves and don't
Speaker 4: treat themselves well at all. You know, they have no weekends,
Speaker 4: they have no boundaries to their whole life is their work.
Speaker 3: So you can be very good outwards but not particularly
Speaker 3: particularly good in woods.
Speaker 4: You don't tend to see it as much as people
Speaker 4: being very good in woods and not particularly good outwards
Speaker 4: that that relationship doesn't tend to you don't tend to
Speaker 4: see that so often. And in any event, those people
Speaker 4: don't tend to come to therapy any anyway.
Speaker 3: But self compassion, you know, a lot of therapy.
Speaker 2: Is me I don't want to rock them, that's right.
Speaker 4: But sometimes we can be under the illusion that we are,
Speaker 4: you know, quite self compassionate, and then when we break down, okay,
Speaker 4: when that didn't go well for you, you know, how
Speaker 4: did you react or respond? And just even in my
Speaker 4: little example, you know, my first with the conveyor belt
Speaker 4: at the shops, the first thing I went to was
Speaker 4: you idiot. You know, it's like, well, I mean, I
Speaker 4: wouldn't call you an idiot tif.
Speaker 6: If that was there, but we will just give it
Speaker 6: a little bit ye yet.
Speaker 4: But you know, we wouldn't usually use that to label someone,
Speaker 4: but we can do it so quickly for ourselves, and
Speaker 4: sometimes like, oh yeah, I do speak to myself actually
Speaker 4: pretty harshly, and certainly I wouldn't want others to speak
Speaker 4: to me like that. So yeah, it's until you slow
Speaker 4: it down a little bit, can we can kind of
Speaker 4: get a sense of actually, perhaps I do struggle with
Speaker 4: self compassion a little.
Speaker 3: Bit more than what I thought. And again it's just
Speaker 3: trying to work.
Speaker 4: Okay, I wonder what that's about, you know, wonder where
Speaker 4: that came from, et cetera.
Speaker 3: I mean, there's a great study.
Speaker 4: Done with adults with ADHD and when they reflect on
Speaker 4: their childhood, they report very high levels of criticism from others.
Speaker 4: So a lot of people sort of you know, on
Speaker 4: measures talking about childhood, like with people with people critical
Speaker 4: of you, the PEPICALI names and ece and they score
Speaker 4: very highly on those kinds of measures, you know. And
Speaker 4: if you talk to someone like, because I have some
Speaker 4: clients with it, I was, oh.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's always shut up. What's wrong with you? Just
Speaker 3: sit still? What is right?
Speaker 4: Because can't sit still or concentrate or whatever it might be.
Speaker 4: And these researchers did the study hypothesize that, you know,
Speaker 4: those who are receiving higher levels of criticism from others
Speaker 4: are much more likely to be high in their own
Speaker 4: self criticism compared.
Speaker 3: To those who have lower levels of criticism from others.
Speaker 4: And there are a lot of people who are scholars
Speaker 4: out there who have theorized this. The way people talk
Speaker 4: to us starts to be a reference point for how
Speaker 4: I'll speak to myself. And so if you've got a
Speaker 4: lot of people yelling at you, calling you names and
Speaker 4: a critical of you, it's much more likely that you're
Speaker 4: going to start to use that yourself as your own
Speaker 4: self relating style. And sure enough, those who had that
Speaker 4: adult lady actually had very very.
Speaker 5: High levels of self criticism as well compared to those
Speaker 5: who didn't.
Speaker 4: So it's again no one's fault, like that person didn't
Speaker 4: ask for these.
Speaker 5: Adults to be around and yelling at them in this
Speaker 5: way and calling them their names.
Speaker 3: It's just how it was.
Speaker 4: Nor is it their fault that they're likely to use
Speaker 4: that to drive their own behavior, because that's how the
Speaker 4: adults around them, we're trying to drive the behavior and them.
Speaker 2: What's it like walking around as a bloke, just a
Speaker 2: human just trying to do humaning as best he can,
Speaker 2: and a dad and be a mate and be everything
Speaker 2: that you are and be the compassion guy? Like, is
Speaker 2: that heavy? At times? Do you feel my gosh, should
Speaker 2: I I got it? Do you have to wear a
Speaker 2: mask at times? You can't do that?
Speaker 4: Sometimes it feels like it gives you license to be
Speaker 4: a bit take advantage of be a bit more you know,
Speaker 4: a bit more blunt. Certainly with my best friends, I
Speaker 4: will do that. You know, at times they'll.
Speaker 3: Kind of they'll kind of say something like, oh, you know,
Speaker 3: what should I do? Then? I was I may just
Speaker 3: get over I don't know what on it but that's.
Speaker 5: That's just to take you know, that piss out of it,
Speaker 5: so to speak, make it a bit more fun.
Speaker 4: But my wife kind of says, because I've got so little,
Speaker 4: that's why I have to keep studying it to try
Speaker 4: to get better at it.
Speaker 2: But she sounds like a psychologist too, mate, Yeah, well
Speaker 2: she is.
Speaker 4: Actually, I mean, listen, I don't know to it. To
Speaker 4: be honest, I kind of just try to be me
Speaker 4: in all kind of kind of situations. But certainly I've
Speaker 4: always been you know, I've always been interested and I
Speaker 4: don't know, if someone's upset and not quite right. I've
Speaker 4: always felt like I've been able to pick up on
Speaker 4: that pretty quickly amongst my friends or whatever, and so
Speaker 4: I've always had that kind of if they listened, they'll
Speaker 4: probably deny, But I myself felt like I was. I
Speaker 4: was kind of attuned to that, particularly because I've got
Speaker 4: three younger siblings too, and I guess, you know, with
Speaker 4: the four of us, I was always kind of pretty
Speaker 4: pretty tuned into how they were and stuff, and so
Speaker 4: I always felt like I was I was pretty tuned
Speaker 4: into that. But yeah, they do give me, My friends
Speaker 4: do give me.
Speaker 3: A bit of bit of heat. About it at times.
Speaker 4: I mean because compassion getting into it kind of changed
Speaker 4: me as well, because like I wasn't vegetarian or anything
Speaker 4: like that before really getting into studying compassion. And then
Speaker 4: the more I did it, the more a treats it did,
Speaker 4: the more kind of work I was doing in this space,
Speaker 4: and the more I was thinking about sentient life and
Speaker 4: stuff like that, I was like, oh god, you know,
Speaker 4: I don't know if I can. You know, I started
Speaker 4: wrestled with that question in my mind. You know, how
Speaker 4: do I feel about taking another like.
Speaker 3: A cow's life or whatever it might be.
Speaker 4: And so, you know, I just started playing with those
Speaker 4: different ideas. So I went then vegetarian for about I
Speaker 4: don't know, about seven years. Then my iron levels were
Speaker 4: so drastically low.
Speaker 2: You love him self compassion again and a cow.
Speaker 3: Exactly. That's essentially what the doctor said.
Speaker 4: But you know, because you supposed to get a blood
Speaker 4: test like after a year or two doing but I
Speaker 4: just hadn't got around to.
Speaker 2: One year, seven year typical blog, Yeah, exactly, typical fee,
Speaker 2: typical male medical protocol bingo.
Speaker 4: So you know, I mean, it has changed certain things
Speaker 4: I do in my every day life hundred percent. But
Speaker 4: I think that's a good thing, because I'm always kind
Speaker 4: of thinking about because I read something, you know, like
Speaker 4: I wonder what I do or you know, you know,
Speaker 4: what do I what do we do at home at
Speaker 4: the moment.
Speaker 3: Or you know.
Speaker 4: One thing which I found very interesting was there was
Speaker 4: this big study done in the US with ten thousand
Speaker 4: and fourteen fifteen year old and they asked them to
Speaker 4: sort of rate, out of all of these values, what
Speaker 4: are the most important values.
Speaker 5: And the values were things like, you know, being caring,
Speaker 5: compassion kind, or being successful, achieving and stuff like this.
Speaker 5: And eighty percent of the kids in this study, there
Speaker 5: were ten thousand of them, eighty percent said being a
Speaker 5: success was the most important value. That's what they have
Speaker 5: to strive for. Twenty percent. And Americans are.
Speaker 4: Slightly different culture to Australia, of course, and so that
Speaker 4: whereas twenty percent felt more on the kind, caring, kind
Speaker 4: of kind of domain. And so that was quite quite
Speaker 4: a contrast. But then when they asked the parents what
Speaker 4: value do they really want in their kids, that was reversed.
Speaker 4: They were like, eighty percent, I want my kids to
Speaker 4: be caring, kind, compassionate. In twenty percent, we're like you know,
Speaker 4: on the success side of things. So we say one thing,
Speaker 4: but the message getting through to the children is telling
Speaker 4: us a different thing. And so, you know, it makes
Speaker 4: sense why teens and stuff would would suggest being that
Speaker 4: success is most important, because you know, I need to
Speaker 4: get a job, I need to start a life, get
Speaker 4: a house, whatever it might be. So that's really important
Speaker 4: at that kind of stage of life. But equally a
Speaker 4: lot of the interest we show as parents tends to
Speaker 4: be about, hey, how are you going at school?
Speaker 3: You know, what's your report cards?
Speaker 4: Like things of this nature, or how you doing that
Speaker 4: whatever cocurricular activity you're involved in. We don't often sit
Speaker 4: around the table and say, and this is what we've
Speaker 4: started to do, what's one kind thing you did today
Speaker 4: at school? You know, it's just an implied norm. What's
Speaker 4: one kind thing you've done? It's like you must have
Speaker 4: done something. What was a kind thing you did?
Speaker 3: Tell us? Or it could be not just putting it
Speaker 3: to him.
Speaker 4: I might say, first, well today I did this kind thing,
Speaker 4: you know, And again it's trying to establish a kind
Speaker 4: of norm that we try to be will try to
Speaker 4: do kind things where we can. But unless you're talking
Speaker 4: about it and showing it and labeling it, you know,
Speaker 4: it won't necessarily trickle through to the kiddos. So trying
Speaker 4: to do more of those little things at home has
Speaker 4: also been something that I've kind of been picking up on.
Speaker 2: It's a prime example of when we need to think
Speaker 2: of how kids do what we do, not what we say.
Speaker 2: If we're being compassionate to them but not modeling self compassion,
Speaker 2: and then we're hoping that they'll figure out self compassion
Speaker 2: somewhere out there in the abyss.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker 4: Certainly, the way children learn to build that relating, that
Speaker 4: self compassion relating style will very much be dependent on
Speaker 4: how their parents are responding to them and interacting with them,
Speaker 4: but also picking up on what.
Speaker 3: Their parents do themselves when they're struggling and they're upset
Speaker 3: and so on.
Speaker 4: So you pick it up, like, you know, and you
Speaker 4: kind of get a little bit frightened. You know, when Fletcher,
Speaker 4: my son, you know, he's riding to soccer, you know,
Speaker 4: and he was trying to do some stuff the other
Speaker 4: day and he just said himself.
Speaker 3: For idiot, like mate, hang on, where did this come from?
Speaker 4: And it's like, well, sure enough, he would have picked
Speaker 4: it up from me or you know, if not me,
Speaker 4: another adult, but most likely me.
Speaker 3: And it's kind of.
Speaker 4: Like, you know, you don't know they're watching. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: but they're always got their eyes open.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Is there a rule book for success when a
Speaker 2: psychologist marries a psychologist? Is they're like some hidden rule
Speaker 2: book on how to make that shit work and not
Speaker 2: be full of land mines? I mean, same with most relationships,
Speaker 2: I guess, but I feel.
Speaker 3: Like it was so funny.
Speaker 4: One of the old professors at the university I'm at
Speaker 4: he was a couple's researcher, and which makes it even worse,
Speaker 4: so not only a psychologist, but a couple's researcher, and
Speaker 4: he was telling me within the couple's researching world, you know,
Speaker 4: he was one of the few that were still in
Speaker 4: his couple relationship, whereas everyone else broken up.
Speaker 3: I mean, there are landmines.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, I got to help, but just being hysteric sover,
Speaker 4: but you know some of the reasons why. But you know,
Speaker 4: one key one he said was which makes it so
Speaker 4: difficult is a lot of time when you're trying to
Speaker 4: do a couples there up, but you're having to do
Speaker 4: it after hours, So your relationship of course gets sacrificed
Speaker 4: a lot as a result and stuff like this, But
Speaker 4: I was like, oh, yeah, but that can't be the
Speaker 4: reason for all of them. No, and being married to
Speaker 4: a psychologists haven't got any hot tips really. I mean,
Speaker 4: in some ways it's excellent because you don't have to
Speaker 4: explain some of the difficulties you're having because they kind
Speaker 4: of get it, and so it makes it a little
Speaker 4: bit easier. But also I find my wife Cassie is
Speaker 4: such a wonderful sounding board.
Speaker 3: But we got so many other interests outside.
Speaker 4: Of work that that preoccupy our every I'm all the
Speaker 4: kids mostly, but you know, we love movies and books
Speaker 4: and stuff like. We'll have more ugents about that stuff then,
Speaker 4: but then.
Speaker 3: The psychology comes into it. I suppose. I don't know
Speaker 3: how we're managing tip, but we're just getting by. I
Speaker 3: love it.
Speaker 4: I love it.
Speaker 2: You've been so great to talk to. Can people follow you,
Speaker 2: find your book, you buy your books or anything else
Speaker 2: that you'd like to promote?
Speaker 4: Oh thanks to I mean if they just type James
Speaker 4: Kirby into Google, all my stuff should pop up and
Speaker 4: then my emails are all there and so on. So yeah,
Speaker 4: just just type that in and yeah, drop us along.
Speaker 2: Awesome. Thank you so much, Thank you too, Thanks everyone.
Speaker 1: She said, it's now never. I got fighting in my blood.
Speaker 2: Got it
Speaker 3: Started, it, got it