WEBVTT - Compassion & Self-Compassion (The Skill We Suck At) | James Kirby, PhD - 922 0:00:01.680 --> 0:00:07.480 She said, it's now never I got fighting in my blood. 0:00:09.039 --> 0:00:12.479 I'm tiff. This is Roll with the Punches and we're 0:00:12.520 --> 0:00:17.119 turning life's hardest hits into wins. Nobody wants to go 0:00:17.200 --> 0:00:20.599 to court, and don't. My friends at test Art Family 0:00:20.680 --> 0:00:25.160 Lawyers know that they offer all forms of alternative dispute resolution. 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:29.240 Their team of Melbourne family lawyers have extensive experience in 0:00:29.360 --> 0:00:32.960 all areas of family law to facto and same sex couples, 0:00:33.159 --> 0:00:37.280 custody and children, family violence and intervention orders, property settlements 0:00:37.360 --> 0:00:41.680 and financial agreements. Test Art is in your corner, so 0:00:41.840 --> 0:00:45.440 reach out to Mark and the team at www dot 0:00:45.800 --> 0:00:55.800 test Artfamilylawyers dot com dot au. James Kirby, Welcome to 0:00:55.960 --> 0:00:57.080 Roll with the Punches. 0:00:57.680 --> 0:01:00.279 Oh thanks, Teff. Great to be here, like. 0:01:00.800 --> 0:01:02.840 With mirror, like a bit of a mirror version of 0:01:02.880 --> 0:01:05.120 each other when you're like, oh, there was some email 0:01:05.520 --> 0:01:08.480 stack of time ago, and I'm like, yeah, someone, someone 0:01:08.560 --> 0:01:11.040 I can't remember, told me you were awesome, And so 0:01:11.120 --> 0:01:13.360 we're here chatting and we don't know how we arrived here, 0:01:13.400 --> 0:01:15.920 but six eight twelve, I don't know how long the 0:01:16.120 --> 0:01:17.039 December wasn't. 0:01:16.920 --> 0:01:18.080 It was it? 0:01:18.840 --> 0:01:23.039 So I was really relieved to know it was December, 0:01:23.120 --> 0:01:27.479 because I mean, I've got not the most amazing recall. 0:01:27.640 --> 0:01:29.640 At the best of times, I get so excited and 0:01:29.680 --> 0:01:31.520 I just go and I don't leave a paper trail 0:01:31.560 --> 0:01:35.119 for myself. So when it was December, I'm like, thank goodness, 0:01:35.560 --> 0:01:40.959 I have permission to just be blatantly. Hey, don't know, 0:01:41.120 --> 0:01:42.920 don't know who told me to get you on, don't 0:01:42.920 --> 0:01:45.000 know what I thought we'd talk about, but here we are. 0:01:46.959 --> 0:01:51.920 I'm so sorry. Isn't that terrible? But thank you so 0:01:52.040 --> 0:01:52.840 much for having me. 0:01:53.520 --> 0:01:55.440 No, it's great. I feel I'm going to get along 0:01:55.480 --> 0:01:58.320 like a house on fire. And especially when I did 0:01:58.360 --> 0:02:02.880 do a bit of a refresher, who's this? You're into 0:02:03.000 --> 0:02:05.600 some cool stuff that I love talking about. So do 0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:07.440 you want to tell the world what you're into? 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:09.799 Yeah? Sure, so yeah. 0:02:10.000 --> 0:02:12.280 I'm based at the University of Queensland in the School 0:02:12.320 --> 0:02:15.960 of Psychology. I'm a clinical psychologist. A lot of my 0:02:16.000 --> 0:02:20.280 work is focused on research and compassion, particularly compassion focused 0:02:20.320 --> 0:02:24.400 therapy to help individuals with high levels of self criticism 0:02:24.440 --> 0:02:26.960 and shame and things like that. But I also have 0:02:27.040 --> 0:02:31.400 a look at how compassion kind of develops with children 0:02:31.760 --> 0:02:35.280 and also like sort of organizationally what levers we might 0:02:35.320 --> 0:02:38.840 be able to pull to try to increase the likelihood 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:42.400 someone might act compassionately, But also what factors might you know, 0:02:42.440 --> 0:02:45.400 sort of stop or block compassion. So those sorts of 0:02:45.440 --> 0:02:48.200 different lab studies, which are always fun. 0:02:48.639 --> 0:02:51.399 Yeah, I bet you've got a really small tagged audience. 0:02:53.880 --> 0:02:56.480 Like everybody. 0:02:56.880 --> 0:02:58.880 It's like what you were sort of mentioning earlier. It's 0:02:58.919 --> 0:03:00.880 if you kind of hear I hear something, I'm going, 0:03:00.880 --> 0:03:03.000 oh my goodness, that's interesting. Oh yes, oh yeah, no, 0:03:03.080 --> 0:03:05.080 that sounds great too, And then all of a sudden 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:07.520 you're kind of doing so many different things at the 0:03:07.520 --> 0:03:09.360 same time because it's just all I just find it 0:03:09.400 --> 0:03:11.239 also fascinating. 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:14.799 Yeah, tell me where it started for you, Like when 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:18.080 did you get into psychology? Was it psychology and then 0:03:18.680 --> 0:03:21.600 finding the past to compassion or like what was what 0:03:21.639 --> 0:03:22.400 did that look like? 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:24.160 Yeah? 0:03:24.240 --> 0:03:29.080 My kind of first kind of opening up into this 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:33.200 world of psychology was through the movie Goodwill Hunting. Don't 0:03:33.200 --> 0:03:35.320 know if I mean it feels like to me everyone 0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:37.680 should know that film. But I was telling students this 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:39.800 the other day. Is I so hears seeing Goodwill Hunting 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:41.400 and no one had seen it, And I'm like what, 0:03:42.000 --> 0:03:45.960 But it's about thirty years old now, so that that 0:03:46.040 --> 0:03:49.560 kind of tracks, but disappointingly so from my perspective because 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:50.160 it just. 0:03:50.160 --> 0:03:51.040 Let me feel old. 0:03:51.480 --> 0:03:55.520 But I watched that movie and just thought it was unbelievable, 0:03:55.840 --> 0:03:58.040 just loved Robin Williams and so on. And I was 0:03:58.080 --> 0:04:00.960 a high school student at the time, was just like, oh, 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:03.640 my goodness, is this something that one can do with 0:04:03.680 --> 0:04:04.360 one's career. 0:04:05.400 --> 0:04:07.520 And then at university. 0:04:07.000 --> 0:04:10.640 Took some psychology courses of course and finding out all 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:13.600 these wonderful and bizarre things that the brain does, which 0:04:13.640 --> 0:04:16.479 again I had no idea about, and I found all 0:04:16.560 --> 0:04:19.600 of that just so interesting in terms of what our 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:22.280 brains can do that can make things difficult for us, 0:04:22.279 --> 0:04:24.599 but also the shortcuts it does to make it a 0:04:24.640 --> 0:04:27.120 bit easier, but then also how social factors can have 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:30.080 a big influence on our decision making. All this stuff 0:04:30.200 --> 0:04:33.039 just was fascinating. But I always knew deep down I 0:04:33.040 --> 0:04:33.799 wanted to get. 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:37.520 Into working one on one and with people in clinical psychology. 0:04:39.240 --> 0:04:44.680 It was there anything about learning psychology that that completely 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:47.279 balsted you where you were like, what, like that wasn't 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:48.120 what you expected? 0:04:49.320 --> 0:04:52.279 The whole yeah, yeah, the whole thing. Yeah. 0:04:52.480 --> 0:04:56.520 I suppose one of the first was in one lecture. 0:04:56.560 --> 0:05:01.039 In one Yeah one lecture, the student the essa John 0:05:01.080 --> 0:05:04.040 McLain was talking about an effect called the Stroop effect, 0:05:04.040 --> 0:05:05.599 which I'd never heard about before. 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:07.080 And the Stroop effect is. 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:10.080 Where you would have the word written and just say 0:05:10.080 --> 0:05:12.800 if it was cook, you know, and it would be 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:15.920 written in red font, and then say the next word 0:05:16.000 --> 0:05:18.640 might underneath, it might be a book and it would 0:05:18.680 --> 0:05:20.479 be in blue font, and it would just keep going 0:05:20.480 --> 0:05:23.720 like a different words, random words, but with different colored font, 0:05:23.920 --> 0:05:26.120 and you would be asked to read as quickly as 0:05:26.160 --> 0:05:28.080 you can the color of the font. 0:05:28.560 --> 0:05:30.920 But our brain doesn't want to do that. It kind 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:32.080 of wants to read the word. 0:05:32.160 --> 0:05:36.640 We were so like reading so automated would stuff it up, 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:39.560 and then to make it a layer of difficulty, they 0:05:39.560 --> 0:05:42.400 would have the words then written, not just random words 0:05:42.400 --> 0:05:44.279 cook and book and stuff. They would actually have the 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:46.920 word red the word yellow. So that makes it even 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:48.160 more confusing because. 0:05:47.920 --> 0:05:51.080 Now you're having to read yellow, but in the font 0:05:51.120 --> 0:05:53.440 it would be in which would be blue, say, and 0:05:53.480 --> 0:05:54.960 that would just be very. 0:05:54.760 --> 0:05:57.479 Tricky to do. So you'd have to always having to 0:05:57.480 --> 0:06:00.159 read the color, but you read it again yellow, but 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:03.400 it's blue. So when we did that as a whole group, 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:06.760 I was like, Oh my goodness. I didn't realize how 0:06:06.800 --> 0:06:09.360 difficult that would be. And then there was this other 0:06:09.520 --> 0:06:12.560 kind of eye open I just with remembering numbers. So 0:06:12.600 --> 0:06:20.320 we would be told a sequence of numbers like six four, eight, one, nine, seven, eight, 0:06:20.400 --> 0:06:22.680 and you had it go up to about ten, and 0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:25.160 then you'd have to re recall how many of those 0:06:25.240 --> 0:06:28.560 numbers you could remember, And if you had no strategy, 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:32.240 you could probably do about six to seven. But if 0:06:32.320 --> 0:06:36.120 you chunked the numbers into groups of four, for example, 0:06:36.440 --> 0:06:38.839 you could remember a lot more of those numbers. So 0:06:39.120 --> 0:06:42.520 just some little hacks like that really fascinated me and 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:44.360 blew my mind open, and. 0:06:44.120 --> 0:06:46.440 It's like, oh goodness, what else is there? And this 0:06:46.520 --> 0:06:47.520 is just the first lecture. 0:06:47.800 --> 0:06:49.279 Yeah, I was going to say that. I imagine that 0:06:49.320 --> 0:06:51.080 was really early on. And what I love about that 0:06:51.240 --> 0:06:55.560 is it's actually quite your mind goes, or mind does. 0:06:55.680 --> 0:06:59.440 I'm very inquisitive and curious. My mind goes so deep 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:02.760 into the meaning and where that can be applied in 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:06.200 our own lives. And that's like the first thing you learn. 0:07:06.320 --> 0:07:10.160 Like we over complicate so much, but to me just 0:07:10.240 --> 0:07:13.440 hearing that, it's like, oh, we have so much to 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:14.480 sit down and think about. 0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:16.040 That's right. 0:07:16.160 --> 0:07:20.840 I mean things on the surface seeing very simple, very straightforward, 0:07:20.880 --> 0:07:24.640 getting through things quite easily. But your mind is doing 0:07:24.640 --> 0:07:27.840 all of these complicated shortcuts and things for you to 0:07:27.920 --> 0:07:32.320 kind of navigate through life very easily. I remember, which 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:35.120 I never spent any time contemplating. And then when you do, 0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:36.840 you kind of go, oh, my goodness, I wonder how 0:07:36.840 --> 0:07:39.560 many times I've made little errors or mistakes And it's 0:07:39.600 --> 0:07:42.240 not because of anything wrong with me, it's just this 0:07:42.320 --> 0:07:44.720 is how it plays out in the mind. So that 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:47.960 was very freeing in some ways. I remember one professor 0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:51.280 Thomas Suttendorf, in a cognitive psychology like you talk about, 0:07:52.040 --> 0:07:55.040 just asked the question how many door handles are there 0:07:55.040 --> 0:07:58.240 in your home where you're living? Well, like, I think, 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:00.440 got no idea, He goes, no, no, Just close your 0:08:00.480 --> 0:08:03.000 eyes and slowly go through as if you're walking through 0:08:03.000 --> 0:08:05.320 your house. And if you slow that break close your 0:08:05.360 --> 0:08:08.120 eyes and pretend you're opening the front door. You can 0:08:08.760 --> 0:08:10.920 almost with a very good level of accuracy, get the 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:14.160 exact number of door handles there are because you kind 0:08:14.160 --> 0:08:16.040 of okay, walk through the front door, and then to 0:08:16.120 --> 0:08:18.000 my right there's another room, and then you can count 0:08:18.000 --> 0:08:19.760 it all up. But if you just had to give 0:08:19.800 --> 0:08:22.400 a straight answer, yes, no idea, but the way the 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:25.160 mind works again, it's just a little slow. But guiding 0:08:25.160 --> 0:08:28.000 yourself through that, you can then give a very close 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:28.800 to correct answer. 0:08:30.160 --> 0:08:33.040 When people, So, I guess, think about the people that 0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:37.320 you went to those first through the first level of 0:08:37.400 --> 0:08:40.320 studies with by the time you come out the end 0:08:40.400 --> 0:08:43.640 of that, and you've all learned the same thing. How 0:08:44.120 --> 0:08:48.959 different at the beginning before you've dealt probably gone into 0:08:49.400 --> 0:08:52.320 different areas and dealt with different people and made lots 0:08:52.360 --> 0:08:57.640 of new learnings. How different do you think first level 0:08:57.640 --> 0:08:59.920 psychologists are when they first get out and they've all 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:01.000 learn the same thing. 0:09:03.280 --> 0:09:06.160 As in like they've all worked walked out with the same. 0:09:06.520 --> 0:09:09.520 Same of the same teachings. This is what you learned, 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:12.800 this is now what you know. Go and start working 0:09:12.840 --> 0:09:13.520 with humans. 0:09:14.920 --> 0:09:18.360 Yeah, yeah, and working So, I guess psychology is so diverse. 0:09:18.400 --> 0:09:21.160 So after you finish your your fourth year of study, 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:23.679 so usually that would be three year undergrad and a 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:26.720 fourth year honors, psychology can work. You can work in 0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:29.360 many different areas, so you can kind of work a lot. 0:09:29.400 --> 0:09:31.400 A lot of people finish their fourth year, they might 0:09:31.400 --> 0:09:34.120 work as an analyst for you know, the strange tax 0:09:34.160 --> 0:09:37.839 office or mains transport or something like that. Because one 0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:41.200 thing psychologists are trained very well in is measurement and 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:44.640 methodology and trying to interpret hang on, can we actually 0:09:44.679 --> 0:09:47.480 conclude that based on the data that we collected? And 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:51.319 we also get trained a lot in analysis statistical analysis. 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:54.960 Now that's not what I anticipated when I started psychology, 0:09:55.360 --> 0:09:58.720 but about half our courses are stats and research methods, 0:09:59.440 --> 0:10:02.679 so you to get trained very strongly on that, and 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:04.000 that can be a bit of an eye opener for 0:10:04.080 --> 0:10:06.880 many people. And then it's not until after that you 0:10:06.960 --> 0:10:10.160 then will enroll in a master's degree, which would then 0:10:10.200 --> 0:10:13.920 be another two years of say Masters of Clinical Psychology. 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:16.760 But there's also a host of other different programs all pside, 0:10:17.000 --> 0:10:21.080 and someone's brought to exercise where in that postgraduate study 0:10:21.160 --> 0:10:24.160 you can then sort of work one on one with people. Now, 0:10:24.200 --> 0:10:26.480 when it gets to that master's level and you're doing 0:10:26.480 --> 0:10:31.600 that two years, we're kind of constantly assessed on our competencies, 0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:34.640 so like, can you display these kinds of skill sets? 0:10:34.679 --> 0:10:36.360 And so yes, there is. 0:10:36.360 --> 0:10:38.920 A lot of kind of by that point, because you're 0:10:39.040 --> 0:10:41.480 so watched and monitored and assessed that you're meeting the 0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:45.120 basic competency. There is a lot of yeah, we're all 0:10:45.120 --> 0:10:46.839 going out with it with a similar set of skills, 0:10:46.880 --> 0:10:48.559 well very close to similar set of skills as you 0:10:48.760 --> 0:10:51.760 kind of hope, because we're registered by you know, Australian 0:10:51.840 --> 0:10:57.440 health regulatory bodies. But when you've been in it's so diverse. 0:10:57.559 --> 0:10:59.920 It's so diverse what people have walked away with as 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:01.760 the key learnings. You know. 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:03.079 I have some friends who. 0:11:02.920 --> 0:11:09.400 Work in expert testimonies for like eyewitness identification, and other 0:11:09.440 --> 0:11:12.640 people kind of work in marketing for you know, how 0:11:12.679 --> 0:11:19.000 to get people interested in clicking on your kind of brand, 0:11:19.200 --> 0:11:22.920 and then other people who are working, you know, with 0:11:23.000 --> 0:11:26.280 air traffic control trying to work out best safety procedures 0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:28.640 and stuff like that. So you can just apply it 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:30.880 in so many diverse ways, which I think is one 0:11:30.960 --> 0:11:34.720 of the one of the strengths of a psychology agree. 0:11:34.760 --> 0:11:38.120 But also for some that's a bit scary, you know, 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:41.160 because it's not kind of clear this is exactly what 0:11:41.160 --> 0:11:41.760 I'm going to do. 0:11:41.720 --> 0:11:42.320 With my degree. 0:11:42.320 --> 0:11:45.400 In fact, it can be used in so many different ways. Actually, 0:11:45.400 --> 0:11:46.319 where do I want to take it. 0:11:46.360 --> 0:11:50.120 I don't know for someone who's had almost a thousand 0:11:50.160 --> 0:11:55.439 conversations that heavily lean into human psychology and talking to psychologists, 0:11:55.480 --> 0:12:00.680 and I've just learned something for the first time. I 0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:05.439 never realized the breadth of what avenue that can take 0:12:05.440 --> 0:12:07.760 you down. That was unexpected. 0:12:08.240 --> 0:12:10.560 Yeah, well, no, I think for most when they get 0:12:10.559 --> 0:12:14.640 into it, go into thinking I'll end up working, you know, 0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:18.360 essentially as a clinical psychologist like Fraser Crane or something 0:12:18.440 --> 0:12:21.960 like that off the television, or Freud or something like 0:12:22.040 --> 0:12:26.559 that that springs to mind. But really, you know, psychologists 0:12:26.559 --> 0:12:29.640 are interested in a lot of ways human behavior and 0:12:29.720 --> 0:12:31.840 just trying to work out what kind of drives it 0:12:32.040 --> 0:12:34.000 and how can we use that, and of course, then 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:35.840 as you mentioned earlier, that can just be applied in 0:12:35.880 --> 0:12:37.199 so many different ways. 0:12:38.000 --> 0:12:40.680 So what angle did you take? Where did you run 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:43.200 off to when you school doors? 0:12:43.720 --> 0:12:48.600 Yes, I got into clinical psychology because of goodwill hunting, 0:12:49.720 --> 0:12:53.280 and then after I finished my masters, I did what 0:12:53.320 --> 0:12:57.360 they call it a combined master's. 0:12:57.040 --> 0:13:00.400 PhD, which I call a clinical p HD. 0:13:01.600 --> 0:13:05.680 So post masters, I was working in private practice for 0:13:05.679 --> 0:13:07.720 a while, working in a couple of different hospitals as well, 0:13:08.000 --> 0:13:11.360 I still do private practice, but now I also have 0:13:11.920 --> 0:13:14.480 an academic job at the university where I researched, that 0:13:14.600 --> 0:13:16.800 was the PhD. So I wasn't sure if I wanted 0:13:16.840 --> 0:13:19.480 to work straight as a researcher or as a clinician. 0:13:20.200 --> 0:13:24.480 So doing both allowed that flexibility and I leaned in 0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:27.760 the early days more on practicing, and now I have 0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:29.400 moved more into the research. 0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:33.680 And did you know what you wanted? Was it the 0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:36.360 area of research that took you to researching or was 0:13:36.400 --> 0:13:38.720 it I want to research? What the hell am I 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:41.520 going to? Well? What is here and what am I 0:13:41.559 --> 0:13:42.960 interested in? And what can I find? 0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:43.720 Yeah? 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:47.440 Exactly, I don't know. Really, I think a bit of both. 0:13:47.559 --> 0:13:49.679 Like I knew for my PhD, I wanted to do 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:53.360 something that would have use, like it would be applied. 0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:56.760 And a guy at the University of Queensland called Professor 0:13:56.760 --> 0:13:59.439 Matt sand has developed this program called the Triple P 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:02.600 Positive pair In Program and this was a program that 0:14:02.679 --> 0:14:03.679 he developed like. 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:06.120 In the I want to say, early nineties. 0:14:06.160 --> 0:14:08.480 It's been around for a long time now, but it 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:11.400 was to help parents, you know, with the raising of 0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:13.839 the children, with raising of their children, particularly in the 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:16.880 early days for children who were the parents were really 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:19.720 struggling with with some kind of emotion or behavioral kind 0:14:19.720 --> 0:14:22.320 of difficulty. So I thought, oh, I wouldn't mind doing 0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:23.920 something in that space. It kind of feels like I 0:14:23.920 --> 0:14:26.360 could learn something really valuable maybe that I could use 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:29.080 eventually because I'd hope to become a parent. 0:14:29.680 --> 0:14:34.120 But also secondly, you know a lot of programs that developed. 0:14:33.800 --> 0:14:37.120 By Triple P are then rolled out and people are 0:14:37.120 --> 0:14:40.400 trained in and it can have direct impact for clients. 0:14:41.160 --> 0:14:43.040 So I was really interested in that and developed a 0:14:43.160 --> 0:14:45.840 version of the program for grandparents and that was kind 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:49.720 of specifically for grandparents who were doing a lot of 0:14:50.360 --> 0:14:55.360 childcare of the grandkids. So you know, at least twelve 0:14:55.360 --> 0:14:58.200 to thirteen hours a week and a lot of instances. 0:14:58.720 --> 0:14:59.880 All of that works very. 0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:00.840 Well that arrangement. 0:15:00.880 --> 0:15:03.240 But I was interested in those situations where there was 0:15:03.480 --> 0:15:06.000 a bit of tension and conflict between parent and grandparents 0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:08.800 about how things were done and trying to help help 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:12.480 those families, and so I got into so I developed 0:15:12.480 --> 0:15:14.680 a program called Grandparent Triple P, which is part of 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:17.680 the Triple P suite of programs, and got to run 0:15:18.360 --> 0:15:22.080 groups with grandparents trying to help them manage that and 0:15:22.160 --> 0:15:26.120 so really enjoyed that, loved that, and got trained in 0:15:26.200 --> 0:15:28.000 a bunch of other Triple PA programs, and that was 0:15:28.080 --> 0:15:30.640 kind of my introduction to a lot of clinical work. 0:15:31.400 --> 0:15:33.960 But then since then i've kind of you know, you 0:15:34.000 --> 0:15:38.480 continue with your curiosity, you continued professional development which were 0:15:38.520 --> 0:15:42.640 required to do, and stumbled into compassion focused therapy, which 0:15:42.640 --> 0:15:44.520 has kind of been my focus now for the last 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:46.040 fifteen years. 0:15:46.080 --> 0:15:50.400 Probably, yeah, awesome, all right, I love that I have done. 0:15:50.680 --> 0:15:53.400 I've talked about compassion before, but I know I sought 0:15:53.440 --> 0:15:56.960 you out of this conversation because I think I'm interested 0:15:57.000 --> 0:16:00.120 in the science of compassion. I'm interested in this stuff 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:03.520 that we just don't think about when it comes to compassion. 0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:06.600 So I want to know fifteen years worth of knowledge 0:16:07.160 --> 0:16:10.840 in the next forty five minutes. If that's good, easy. 0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:15.120 Easy, easy, and that borous, we won't need forty five. 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:17.880 No. 0:16:18.040 --> 0:16:22.760 I mean, when you start out, you know you've got 0:16:22.760 --> 0:16:23.600 that beginner's mind. 0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:24.680 You know you're just exploring. 0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:27.480 And I think your question I was like, I was 0:16:27.520 --> 0:16:30.000 really wanting to do something apply that could be of use, 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:32.760 that people could could take away with and their life 0:16:32.840 --> 0:16:35.280 might be slightly easier or better, and that got me 0:16:35.320 --> 0:16:39.560 into the triple P stuff. But equally, as you're doing research, 0:16:39.600 --> 0:16:43.800 it's so it's just fun. It's starting to think about, Okay, well, 0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:45.600 what are we trying to do, what are we hoping 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:48.560 to do, what have others done? What things can we 0:16:48.640 --> 0:16:52.920 do to make this happen? And that's just a lot 0:16:52.960 --> 0:16:58.120 of brainstorming and conversations amongst your colleagues, trying to improve 0:16:58.200 --> 0:17:00.240 the nature of the work you're doing to answer some 0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:02.720 kind of fundamental question. And then you get to test 0:17:02.760 --> 0:17:05.040 it to see if it comes out the way you 0:17:05.280 --> 0:17:08.399 hypothesized or not. And I just find that itself just 0:17:08.480 --> 0:17:11.879 such a I guess, a privileged position to have to 0:17:11.880 --> 0:17:13.400 be able to all your life just go, okay, let's 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:13.840 test this out. 0:17:13.880 --> 0:17:14.560 Let's test this out. 0:17:14.600 --> 0:17:16.679 And then you've got these really smart PhD students who 0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:18.960 want to do this stuff as well, and other colleagues, 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:21.840 and all of a sudden your idea gets transformed into 0:17:21.880 --> 0:17:24.600 something even better than what you originally thought it could be. 0:17:25.760 --> 0:17:27.520 And then you see what findings you get. And then 0:17:27.560 --> 0:17:29.919 if you don't get what you anticipate, that's really interesting 0:17:29.920 --> 0:17:32.520 because you're like, oh goodness, okay, there's something going on here. 0:17:32.600 --> 0:17:35.720 Maybe it's our design, or maybe it's the program, whatever 0:17:35.760 --> 0:17:37.800 it might be. So you get to have a lot 0:17:37.840 --> 0:17:41.199 of fun. So that's just very rewarding that process in 0:17:41.240 --> 0:17:44.600 and of itself. But yes, I got into compassion, and 0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:46.679 so because I had done a lot of work in parenting, 0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:50.879 I initially tried to bring a compassion focus into the 0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:55.680 parenting work I was doing. And so I'd read read 0:17:55.680 --> 0:17:59.639 a lot of Paul Gilbert Nef and others who had 0:17:59.640 --> 0:18:01.160 done a lot to work in this space. 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:03.480 It was kind of guided by that. 0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:06.280 But what becomes very quick is you kind of think 0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:08.639 you've got a sense of what it is, and then 0:18:08.680 --> 0:18:10.439 the more you read about, the more you do it, 0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:13.399 the more experiment about it, it's like, oh, goodness is 0:18:13.720 --> 0:18:17.320 complicated and messy, and there are all these ifs, butts, 0:18:17.359 --> 0:18:20.600 and ors related to it. So on the surface, it 0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:24.200 seems simple, like the definition I use is compassions to 0:18:24.280 --> 0:18:28.400 sensitivity to suffering, either in yourself or in others, and others. 0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:31.880 Could be any sentient creature. And that's the first part. 0:18:31.920 --> 0:18:33.960 And then the second part is then trying to do 0:18:34.040 --> 0:18:37.119 something to alleviate or prevent it, which is kind of 0:18:37.119 --> 0:18:40.639 the second part. And on the surface, again, that seems 0:18:40.720 --> 0:18:45.560 pretty straightforward, kind of helpful, pro social behavior. But then 0:18:45.600 --> 0:18:47.960 the way this kind of operates will depend on so 0:18:48.080 --> 0:18:51.439 many different factors. I think one of the easiest ones 0:18:51.560 --> 0:18:55.080 to use as an example is that kind of compassionate 0:18:55.119 --> 0:18:57.879 tendency we have works very well for the people we like, 0:18:58.400 --> 0:19:01.920 but as soon as we change that target from someone 0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:05.159 we like to someone we dislike, our willingness to do 0:19:05.240 --> 0:19:08.880 compassionate behavior drops massively. So I just like doing those 0:19:08.880 --> 0:19:11.160 sorts of things, trying to work out, Okay, what things 0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:15.760 can we shift which will influence likelihood of seeing compassionate 0:19:15.760 --> 0:19:16.359 behavior or not. 0:19:17.720 --> 0:19:20.720 I just returned to which I hadn't been for quite 0:19:20.720 --> 0:19:22.159 a while. Just up the road for me. There's a 0:19:22.200 --> 0:19:25.240 weekly meditation class from a Buddhist center in the city. 0:19:26.080 --> 0:19:30.440 And obviously the word compassion is filtered throughout almost doesn't 0:19:30.440 --> 0:19:33.119 matter where you go to talk about that word is 0:19:33.200 --> 0:19:37.160 just repeated all of the time. But I love the 0:19:37.920 --> 0:19:42.920 mind rabbit holes that those simple yet super complex teachings 0:19:43.119 --> 0:19:45.320 that they do right before throwing you into a little 0:19:45.400 --> 0:19:52.040 meditation is. Yeah, it's what do people think compassion is? 0:19:52.080 --> 0:19:55.360 That it's not? Are there things that people call compassion 0:19:55.440 --> 0:19:57.840 or think a compassion that aren't. 0:19:59.000 --> 0:20:00.879 That aren't compassion? Yeah? 0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:04.720 Absolutely, I mean absolutely. I mean a lot of the time, 0:20:05.280 --> 0:20:07.119 there's a lot of overlap, like a lot of ven 0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:11.280 diagram overlap between a lot of these concepts. But you know, 0:20:11.359 --> 0:20:14.800 in every day vernacular, you know, layperson language, we do 0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:19.600 use certain terms interchangeably, but they are slightly different. So, 0:20:19.800 --> 0:20:22.439 I mean, one clear one is compassion and kindness. So 0:20:22.480 --> 0:20:24.439 people will use those two words is if they're the 0:20:24.480 --> 0:20:28.000