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Speaker 1: Welcome to Fear and Greed Q and A, where we

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Speaker 1: ask and answer questions about business, investing, economics, politics and more.

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Speaker 1: I'm Natalie McDonald and today on Equal Payday, what will

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Speaker 1: it take to close the gender pay gap? Elizabeth Broderick

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Speaker 1: is a former Australian Sex Discrimination Commissioner and the founder

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Speaker 1: of Champions Have Changed Coalition. She is now the founder

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Speaker 1: and principal of Elizabeth Broderick and Co, working with companies

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Speaker 1: and organizations to transform workplace culture. Elizabeth, Welcome to Fear

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Speaker 1: and Greed Q and A.

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Speaker 2: Thanks very much Natalie, lovely to be here with you

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Speaker 2: today on Equal Payday.

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Speaker 1: There's always an air of confusion around days like Equal

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Speaker 1: Payday and the usual rhetoric around same pay for the

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Speaker 1: same job emerges. But it's not quite that simple, is it.

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Speaker 2: No, If onally it was, the reality is it's been

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Speaker 2: unlawful for many years to pay men and women differently

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Speaker 2: for the same job. So that's really not what we're

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Speaker 2: talking about. What we're talking about is when we look

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Speaker 2: at men in a particular workplace and women in a

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Speaker 2: particular workplace, on average, men earn more than women, and

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Speaker 2: there's a whole lot of reasons for that. One is

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Speaker 2: that women are often not promoted at the same rate

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Speaker 2: as men because as we know, women are off taking

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Speaker 2: parental leave, they're coming back in flexible work arrangements. So

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Speaker 2: that's one reason the unequal distribution of care. Or we

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Speaker 2: have industries which are very maldominated, so in relation to manufacturing,

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Speaker 2: in relation to engineering or financial services, and those industries

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Speaker 2: are valued more than feminized industries. So there's some of

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Speaker 2: the reasons that we get this pay gap between what

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Speaker 2: on average men are paid and women are paid.

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Speaker 1: As you say, it's the societal cultural issues. It's part

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Speaker 1: of a bigger picture, not simply the like for la

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Speaker 1: like cash cash that comes home each day. What is

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Speaker 1: the progress then that has been made so far.

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Speaker 2: Look, there has been some good progress actually, and we

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Speaker 2: just saw this week figures came out which said the

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Speaker 2: gender pay gap is today the lowest it's ever been

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Speaker 2: in the history of a nation. It's eleven point five percent.

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Speaker 2: So that means that women are being paid on average

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Speaker 2: eleven point five percent less than men. And that is

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Speaker 2: also coupled with some other good news today, and that

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Speaker 2: is that men and women's workforce participation rates. So that's

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Speaker 2: the amount the rate at which women participate in paid

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Speaker 2: work that is the smallest it's ever been. It's a

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Speaker 2: seven point two percent difference. So those two things are

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Speaker 2: good news, but the fact is they do mask being

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Speaker 2: averages what's happening in particular sectors. So, for example, there's

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Speaker 2: still a very high gender pay gap in financial services

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Speaker 2: and insurance. So there are many industries where the pay

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Speaker 2: gap would be well over twenty percent. But because we've

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Speaker 2: got other sectors like government, the pay gap is very low.

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Speaker 2: That brings us to an average of eleven point five percent.

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Speaker 2: But we're seeing so many organizations recognize that this is

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Speaker 2: not just a gender issue. This is actually a key

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Speaker 2: economic and business issue, and they're really prioritizing closing the

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Speaker 2: gender pay gap in their organization.

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Speaker 1: Another critique that's often held around in these conversations is

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Speaker 1: that the solutions and benefits are women centric and therefore

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Speaker 1: struggle to gain traction. How do you encourage leaders to

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Speaker 1: talk about the benefits for all genders.

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Speaker 2: You're exactly right. The fact is when you close the

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Speaker 2: pay gap, you open up productivity, and actually you open

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Speaker 2: up benefit not just for women and their families, but

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Speaker 2: also for communities and the economy. Just let me give

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Speaker 2: you an example of that. If you know a woman

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Speaker 2: and a man who are in the same family are

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Speaker 2: being paid for their work wherever they work equally with

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Speaker 2: the other gender, it means we're more likely to have

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Speaker 2: greater economic security in the family. Now, when a pandemic

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Speaker 2: like COVID comes along and one of them loses their job,

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Speaker 2: there's much more economic resilience built into that family. So

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Speaker 2: we know that the gender closing, the gender pay gap

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Speaker 2: actually builds resilience into families. Not only that, it opens

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Speaker 2: up opportunities in our economy because when women are paid

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Speaker 2: appropriately and on par with men, what we see is

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Speaker 2: women also have more money in their hands, they spend more,

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Speaker 2: not necessarily on themselves, but on their families. That actually

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Speaker 2: lifts our economy as well. So there's so many examples

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Speaker 2: of where the gender pay gap closing it actually benefits everyone.

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Speaker 2: It's not particularly a women's issue.

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Speaker 1: You've made a couple of references, Elizabeth to productivity. Now

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Speaker 1: that of course, really is the name of the game

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Speaker 1: this week with the economic roundtable. Are there certain policy

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Speaker 1: settings that you would perhaps like to see the trigger

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Speaker 1: pulled on in terms of closing the gap? To support

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Speaker 1: an up left in Australia's productivity.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. I think if we can close the gender pay gap,

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Speaker 2: if we do a number of things. One is the

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Speaker 2: more equal sharing of paid and unpaid work between men

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Speaker 2: and women, so with Australia's traveling too in terms of

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Speaker 2: its paid parental lead scheme, but also some of the

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Speaker 2: policy suggestions in relation to universal childcare and em betting

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Speaker 2: flexible work for both men and women. All those policies

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Speaker 2: are ones which will uplift productivity in the nation and

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Speaker 2: indeed at the same time close the gender pay gap.

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Speaker 2: So there's some really strong policies like that. I mean,

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Speaker 2: in terms of individual organizations doing their part to close

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Speaker 2: the gender pay gap, I think we need to prioritize

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Speaker 2: this issue as a leadership issue. We need to invest

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Speaker 2: in pathways for women into male dominated industries also like trades,

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Speaker 2: and equally to have men coming into more feminized industries

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Speaker 2: like nursing and teaching. That's what starts to break down

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Speaker 2: the occupational segregation. So that will have a really significant impact.

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Speaker 2: And then the final thing I'd say, Natalie, is that

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Speaker 2: no one organization itself can shift the gender pay gap. Necessarily,

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Speaker 2: what we need to do is collaborate across industry. We

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Speaker 2: need to work with governments to have the right policy settings.

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Speaker 2: But it's that collaborative action that will lead to faster,

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Speaker 2: more sustainable progress on closing the gender pay gap.

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Speaker 1: And just lastly, then, Elizabeth, obviously today is equal Payday,

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Speaker 1: but this change and this trans transformation goes far beyond

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Speaker 1: just one day. But what is one action that an

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Speaker 1: individual leader or organization can take today or at least

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Speaker 1: in the shorter term to accelerate progress.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think the first action to do is

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Speaker 2: to actually look at your organization, and particularly if you're

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Speaker 2: someone who's leading the organization, then to undertake what we

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Speaker 2: call is a gender pay audit, so that is to

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Speaker 2: look at, okay, on average, men and women paid equally

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Speaker 2: for work of equal or comparable value. So I think

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Speaker 2: just doing the analysis, that's actually the starting point, and

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Speaker 2: you can start as easily as saying, look, we've got

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Speaker 2: new graduates coming into our organization. Are we paying men

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Speaker 2: and women equally from the day they start? Most people,

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Speaker 2: most organizations hopefully would say yes to that, Natalie. But

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Speaker 2: then if you say yes to that, go on and say, okay, well,

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Speaker 2: what is the first what we would call a broken rung.

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Speaker 2: That's the first point at which women's promotion starts to

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Speaker 2: slow down and men's promotions starts to speed up, because

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Speaker 2: that's maybe the first point of intervention. So with those

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Speaker 2: two small steps, you're on the way to better understanding

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Speaker 2: the gender pay gap and what action you might take

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Speaker 2: to try and make sure that men and women are

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Speaker 2: paid equally.

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Speaker 1: Elizabeth, thank you so much for talking to Fear and

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Speaker 1: Greed today.

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Speaker 2: Thank you very much, Natalie.

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Speaker 1: That was Elizabeth Broderick, former Australian Sex Discrimination Commissioner and

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Speaker 1: founder of Champions of Change coalition. If you've got something

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Speaker 1: you'd like to know, then say through your question on LinkedIn, Instagram,

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Speaker 1: Facebook or at farangreed dot com dot au. I'm Natalie

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Speaker 1: McDonald and this is fear Ingried Q and a