Speaker 1: Appoche Production.
Speaker 2: Welcome to another episode of Brave Always the CEO series.
Speaker 2: This series, we launch into the new world of brave leadership.
Speaker 1: Happy people create happy businesses.
Speaker 2: True emotionally intelligent leadership. I've picked up vomit once on
Speaker 2: OW about our fourth flight and everybody thought, well, if
Speaker 2: it's good enough for him, I can do it.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 2: We will be joined by culture and leadership experts and
Speaker 2: some superstar CEOs who will courageously tell us the truth
Speaker 2: behind their brave leadership journeys. Today I am thrilled to
Speaker 2: be joined by Managing partner at PwC Queensland, Samantha Vidler.
Speaker 2: PwC being one of the world's largest professional service firms,
Speaker 2: with over three hundred and sixty four thousand people across
Speaker 2: one hundred fifty countries, advising many of the world's most
Speaker 2: influential organizations on everything from audit assurance to strategy, tax
Speaker 2: and transformation. So part of what initiated my request to
Speaker 2: want to interview Sam was obviously when I heard that
Speaker 2: you'd been with PwC for thirty years. First of all,
Speaker 2: I didn't believe because I was like, how do you
Speaker 2: look like that and you've been there for thirty years.
Speaker 2: I don't know if that's possible, but I really was
Speaker 2: fascinated to chat with you on what you've understood and
Speaker 2: seen about your own leadership and what's out there over
Speaker 2: this period. I haven't had a guess with a ten
Speaker 2: you're like yours and I'm sure you get that a lot. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but it is a really interesting one I'd love to explore. Plus,
Speaker 2: we are both part of the Goats Vinese team, so
Speaker 2: this is the Saint Viny's CEO sleepout, So I feel
Speaker 2: like we both share a passion for using our influence
Speaker 2: for good. So I often start my interviews going back
Speaker 2: to childhood because for me, in the space of leadership,
Speaker 2: a lot stems from when you were a kid, right
Speaker 2: and what happened in that time. So you couldn't even
Speaker 2: figure out where you were born. Were you born in Brazil?
Speaker 1: Born in Victoria, Victoria?
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, all right, so tell me a bit about
Speaker 2: those early days.
Speaker 3: Always an outdoorsy family. We lived on sort of acreage
Speaker 3: in Victoria, which is cool, and had a range of
Speaker 3: different animals from time to time, very wide and diverse range.
Speaker 3: But grew up really loving the outdoor life, the beach
Speaker 3: and also grew up water skiing at Lake Yielden and
Speaker 3: that was pretty cool. Siblings siblings won older sisters.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Actually she's still in Victoria.
Speaker 2: Yeah right. And so when you think about, like who
Speaker 2: was your biggest influencer role model growing up.
Speaker 1: I think it was really just around family.
Speaker 3: Had parents that gave us an opportunity to do lots
Speaker 3: of different things. Sink or swim, have a crack, I
Speaker 3: have a go, have a go as one of my
Speaker 3: favorite sayings or values, And so I think it was
Speaker 3: really that make the most of your opportunities. You know,
Speaker 3: when you're given really good opportunities to have good education
Speaker 3: and grow up in a pretty stable household, you learn
Speaker 3: to value that.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, okay, And I did read online that you
Speaker 2: were the first of your family to tend university.
Speaker 1: Is in their generation and that generation.
Speaker 2: Yeah right. So the career that moved into accounting, I'm
Speaker 2: assuming was this like your dream growing up as a
Speaker 2: little girl.
Speaker 1: I wanted to be a vet.
Speaker 2: Youvet.
Speaker 3: I wasn't very good at biology. Going into accounting was
Speaker 3: just a kind of fell into it from school. The
Speaker 3: reason I've been with the firm for so long is
Speaker 3: because they hired me straight out of school, which was
Speaker 3: a little bit unique at the time in terms of,
Speaker 3: you know, starting so young and not really knowing what
Speaker 3: I was getting myself in for. I had an accounting
Speaker 3: teacher that said, you're going okay at accounting? Have you
Speaker 3: thought about going for this trainee ship? And I had
Speaker 3: no idea who the firm was, what.
Speaker 1: It was all about. But he landed there and here
Speaker 1: I am, now.
Speaker 2: Okay, So you became if I'm correct, you became a partner.
Speaker 1: At thirty, a little bit older than that early.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, which is pretty bold by anyone's standards. So obviously,
Speaker 2: you know my program is brave. My leadership programs we
Speaker 2: talk about bold, resilient, authentic, vulnerable, empathetics. We kind of
Speaker 2: like move around those topics. But when I think of
Speaker 2: bold being so young, where did imposter syndrome come into
Speaker 2: sort of that? Like, I guess you're in a playing
Speaker 2: field with you know, some big people, some big personalities.
Speaker 2: If I think of EWC, sometimes you think of that
Speaker 2: very corporate structure, Yes, and yeah, thirty years ago it
Speaker 2: was very much so. So how did you feel at
Speaker 2: that time?
Speaker 3: I think, like anybody starting out, I'd like to think
Speaker 3: we're all pretty humble in terms of you don't know
Speaker 3: what you don't know, and you're learning every single day.
Speaker 3: And certainly back in those days, I think one of
Speaker 3: the first partners I met, I called him mister Wilson
Speaker 3: because you always used mister or there weren't a lot
Speaker 3: of female partners at that time to look too. So
Speaker 3: I think when you talk about imposter syndrome, certainly had
Speaker 3: it then, still have it today in certain regards.
Speaker 1: I think if you ever get comfortable, you probably need
Speaker 1: to move on and look through another challenge.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a nice reframing that. I think a lot
Speaker 2: of people avoid the idea like don't want to have
Speaker 2: impositi syndrome, But maybe actually it's more about pushing you
Speaker 2: to want to be better.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think you learned to live with it, and I
Speaker 3: don't think it ever goes away. Certainly for me, I
Speaker 3: don't feel like it's ever gone away. There's still times
Speaker 3: you think, what am I doing here? And do I
Speaker 3: belong here? And am I worthy of being in amongst
Speaker 3: the people that you're meeting?
Speaker 2: How do you reset yourself from that? How you let
Speaker 2: it not get on top of you?
Speaker 1: Oh that's a gee whiz.
Speaker 3: I think you take those small little moments of the
Speaker 3: pad on the back, or the encouragement that others might
Speaker 3: give you, or the end of the day you perk
Speaker 3: yourself up and go, no, no, I'm here. I've got
Speaker 3: to face into this one and give it a red
Speaker 3: hot Go.
Speaker 2: Are you good at self compassion?
Speaker 1: Oh? Probably not.
Speaker 2: I don't think I've met anyone yet, because it is
Speaker 2: a question.
Speaker 4: I think we're terrible at it as human beings, Like
Speaker 4: we're really good at giving that to others, we really
Speaker 4: find it difficult to have that narrative to us. Absolutely, so,
Speaker 4: I guess how do you then, And particularly thinking about
Speaker 4: your early career, how did you back yourself when stakes
Speaker 4: were high, like you had to go in and you know,
Speaker 4: present something or challenge something when you are young and
Speaker 4: a female.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that came from the upbringing
Speaker 3: of you've just got to have a go and you've
Speaker 3: got to put your best foot forward. If a job's
Speaker 3: worth doing, you do it to the best of your ability.
Speaker 3: And I always think back to that and go, if
Speaker 3: I'm going to do something, I'm going to give it
Speaker 3: my all and if it works, it works, and if
Speaker 3: it doesn't, I'm not a brain surgeon.
Speaker 1: No one's going to die.
Speaker 3: I've made a few mistakes over my time, and you
Speaker 3: dust yourself off and get back up.
Speaker 2: But that sort of gret to Nash mindsetting. Okay, Look,
Speaker 2: when it comes to bold, bold for me is a
Speaker 2: thing I must do right. So it's leaning into the uncomfortable,
Speaker 2: having those feelings come up. When you're like, oh, it
Speaker 2: doesn't feel good, but there's the thing I must do.
Speaker 2: Then I got to lean into it. So how do
Speaker 2: you keep pushing yourself to find the limits of your
Speaker 2: uncomfortable When you beat an organization for thirty years and
Speaker 2: you know this business so well.
Speaker 3: Oh, I think the organization in itself, the firm, always
Speaker 3: gives you different opportunities, and so you never get comfortable.
Speaker 3: You're always doing something different. There's always something new to learn.
Speaker 3: The industry is always changing, the demands from our clients
Speaker 3: are always changing. The world is changing. So at a
Speaker 3: point in time, I think I know the organization inside
Speaker 3: and out after thirty years, But the organization doesn't stand still,
Speaker 3: and so neither do you.
Speaker 1: In your own way, you have to keep learning and
Speaker 1: keep keeping up.
Speaker 2: What about personally, do you see set yourself personal goals
Speaker 2: to keep not really.
Speaker 1: I'm not a massive goal set. People talk about, oh,
Speaker 1: what's your five.
Speaker 3: Year plan or what's your long term goals? That's just
Speaker 3: not who I am.
Speaker 2: I live in the moment, good honesty, Like I don't
Speaker 2: think I was of for everybody. Yeah sometimes, but.
Speaker 1: Maybe twelve months out that's as much as I could. Probably.
Speaker 2: You know, what min uncomfortable is going to networking events,
Speaker 2: which is where I met you.
Speaker 1: Like it, won't.
Speaker 2: I do not like going.
Speaker 1: That is I've had to learn to get come.
Speaker 2: I reckon so much more of it. Like many of
Speaker 2: us are all standing there deeply controvert at heart. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean I'm not, but I just don't like those things.
Speaker 2: I don't know why. Then it might make you feel
Speaker 2: so uncomfortable, but I continue to do it because I
Speaker 2: think we're doing something uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: Probably are last week, So I'm doing something uncomfortable right now.
Speaker 2: You are doing this as your first podcaus I love that. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 2: if we look at your thirty years, so it gets
Speaker 2: the big fundamental questions, well, what kept you here? What's
Speaker 2: kept you here? And what's changed dramatically over that time
Speaker 2: that's kept you challenge and interested?
Speaker 3: Yep, I've had the privilege of working in different offices.
Speaker 3: So started in Melbourne, spent a few years in Canberra,
Speaker 3: spent a couple of years in Townsville and now Brisbane.
Speaker 3: So I guess in a way, each move was like
Speaker 3: starting a new job in a way. So there were
Speaker 3: challenges around a new market, new clients, new people, get
Speaker 3: to know within the firm, all of those sorts of things.
Speaker 3: So I guess where they talk about people have different
Speaker 3: jobs across their careers, it sort of feels like I've
Speaker 3: had that which keeps you engage. It's actually been brilliant
Speaker 3: in terms of knowing a lot of people within the firm,
Speaker 3: which is wonderful when you think about how your collaboration,
Speaker 3: how we work nationally and internationally, and that sort of stuff.
Speaker 1: So that's kept me engaged. Fundamentally.
Speaker 3: I have a love of learning, so my job requires
Speaker 3: me to keep learning and keep providing advice to clients.
Speaker 3: So I'm learning as much as everybody else is. So
Speaker 3: and my clients just love my clients.
Speaker 2: You must built some beautiful relationships over this period. They
Speaker 2: must be like family, some of them. I mean, you've
Speaker 2: seen people.
Speaker 3: Feels like a lot of them feel like family, and
Speaker 3: we want to sort of start talking about the royal
Speaker 3: we and we've done this and we've done that, and
Speaker 3: you go hang on a minute.
Speaker 2: Yeah, which obviously to me, like relationships are just the
Speaker 2: critical part of a great organization and culture. But how
Speaker 2: does trust it with you? Like, how does trust play
Speaker 2: out with you?
Speaker 3: Trust is a two way street, so you get a
Speaker 3: good feel for people early on, you do have to
Speaker 3: build that trust over time, that really true trusts, that
Speaker 3: really deep seated. Your client trusts you, and you trust
Speaker 3: your client, You trust your coworkers and all that.
Speaker 1: Sort of stuff. So it is something to be earned
Speaker 1: over time.
Speaker 2: I think do you find that showing vulnerability is that
Speaker 2: harder to do as you get more senior in the organization.
Speaker 3: I think for some people it is. I'm a pretty
Speaker 3: open book. What you see is what you get type
Speaker 3: thing with most people. So I think we're all human, right,
Speaker 3: So I'm going to make mistakes like the next person.
Speaker 3: I'm going to learn something new like the next person.
Speaker 3: In a professional sense, I just keep thinking back to
Speaker 3: I was a young seventeen year old that knew nothing
Speaker 3: and started out and somebody took a punt on me
Speaker 3: and invested in me, and that's what you do in return.
Speaker 3: And that's what I keep thinking of every new person
Speaker 3: that comes through our door and is starting their career
Speaker 3: or everybody starts somewhere.
Speaker 2: Totally so important. I mean, just when you said seventeen
Speaker 2: then I laughed myself because I'm like, I think I
Speaker 2: was on a Kentiquy tour about then. I was like,
Speaker 2: so do you look back now? Do you feel like
Speaker 2: look essentially a later question I have, but I have
Speaker 2: to ask it now. A lot of people I talk to,
Speaker 2: particularly women and successful high profile roles, say to me,
Speaker 2: you can't have it or there's always a price you
Speaker 2: pay for the success that they've had.
Speaker 3: Do you feel that, Oh, No, I don't. Life's all
Speaker 3: about choices, and you make the different choices at different
Speaker 3: times in your life. You know, I was finishing school
Speaker 3: and starting a job. All of my friends were going
Speaker 3: to schoolies on the Gold Coast and I wasn't because
Speaker 3: I was starting a job.
Speaker 1: Do I regret that? Not?
Speaker 3: Really, that was a choice we made at the time,
Speaker 3: and that was what was right at the time. And
Speaker 3: I think life's full of different compromises. You just make
Speaker 3: the choice for yourself and your family.
Speaker 1: And your career and all of those different aspects of
Speaker 1: your life as it presents itself.
Speaker 2: Well, obviously you're mum too. I believe to have two
Speaker 2: daughter daughters.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, they.
Speaker 2: Would have been you know, babies doing the sort of
Speaker 2: growth parts of your case.
Speaker 3: Yeah, as well as all that challenging oh at different times. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3: I reflect on what life is like today for working
Speaker 3: parents versus what life was like when we had our children.
Speaker 3: There was no work from home, no availability. There wasn't
Speaker 3: that flexibility to come and go. You know, we're a
Speaker 3: very flexible workplace and you don't have to be in
Speaker 3: by eight thirty, you don't have to leave five or whatever,
Speaker 3: so you can come and go and be very flexible.
Speaker 3: When I first have children, it was you actually have
Speaker 3: to be in the office five days a week, notwithstanding
Speaker 3: that you might work reduced hours was available, but going well,
Speaker 3: I have to pay for daycare five days a week,
Speaker 3: full days. I don't get a discount for that. So
Speaker 3: you've got to weigh up all of those different options.
Speaker 3: So it was a lot more rigid back when our
Speaker 3: girls were born and they were little, and you know
Speaker 3: those mornings you drop off at daycare at six thirty
Speaker 3: and you'd be the first one was there and the
Speaker 3: last one down and let you.
Speaker 1: Trouble.
Speaker 2: No, I agree. I think there's definitely a huge improvement
Speaker 2: in organizations. Maybe yeah, still some not there. So it's
Speaker 2: great to hear that. So PwC is definitely leading the
Speaker 2: way there. So when you started, culture wise, what kind
Speaker 2: of leadership was modeled and rewarded back then, we're going
Speaker 2: back thirty years, Like, looking at that.
Speaker 3: It was definitely a work hard, play hard culture and leadership.
Speaker 1: It was still very male dominated. That's just a fact.
Speaker 3: I think that just brings with it a different style
Speaker 3: of leadership to what you probably see today where we've
Speaker 3: got more diverse workforces and sort of more diverse people
Speaker 3: in leadership roles. It was definitely your work hard.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I know this myself back when I was
Speaker 2: in a corporate role. Sometimes to have a voice at
Speaker 2: the table, I feel like I had to adopt more
Speaker 2: maskul style in order to be heard. And I know
Speaker 2: I don't do that now, but I used to do that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it felt like that was the only way forward given
Speaker 2: your tenure there. And do you feel like that's something
Speaker 2: you had to do as well?
Speaker 1: At times?
Speaker 3: I think at times you probably had to learn to
Speaker 3: be a louder voice in the room, although I once
Speaker 3: had somebody say to me, you don't have to be
Speaker 3: the loudest person in the room. You just have to
Speaker 3: make sure that what you're contributing is valuable. So that
Speaker 3: helps to change that dial of do you have to
Speaker 3: be the loudest person or do you just have to
Speaker 3: mean what you say, say what you're going to do,
Speaker 3: and do exactly that and lead by your actions more so?
Speaker 2: Okay, so when your confidence does take your head, how
Speaker 2: do you reset? Do you have rich al things that
Speaker 2: you do.
Speaker 3: Probably go and do a bit of exercise and just
Speaker 3: kind of get that tension out of the system. Got
Speaker 3: a great supportive family that pump you up. I've got
Speaker 3: some great colleagues and peers that help pump you up
Speaker 3: and give you that pat on the back that says
Speaker 3: it'll be okay, yeah, be okay.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: It's definitely that network, isn't it that you've got around you?
Speaker 2: When we talk about authenticity, For me, authenticity my description
Speaker 2: is that the opportunity for connection exceeds the fear of rejection.
Speaker 2: Do you have a struggle being completely authentic, like are
Speaker 2: there times where the fear of being rejected for saying
Speaker 2: what you want to say, you think, overrides you really
Speaker 2: saying what you want.
Speaker 1: I think I've gotten better at that as a you get.
Speaker 3: Older and you grow in your career.
Speaker 1: For a period there, you're always, or it was always
Speaker 1: a little bit hesitant to.
Speaker 3: Really speak out or speak up those sorts of things
Speaker 3: for that fear of somebody might not like me or
Speaker 3: agree with me. But I think as you learn to
Speaker 3: deal with those scenarios, you get better at it. I
Speaker 3: really now feel if I'm not speaking my mind or
Speaker 3: if I'm not sharing my views, people might not agree
Speaker 3: with them, and I'm totally fine with that. But if
Speaker 3: I don't contribute something that is meaningful to me, I
Speaker 3: don't know whether it might be meaningful to other people.
Speaker 3: And so you're sort of doing everybody else. I'm not
Speaker 3: saying my ideas are great or the best or whatever,
Speaker 3: but you might be doing somebody else a disservice because
Speaker 3: there might be five other people in a room that
Speaker 3: might think exactly the same as you, and you're the
Speaker 3: only one that's going to say it.
Speaker 1: So sometimes that responsibility is very well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, age, yes, totally agree like I think that naturally
Speaker 2: helps right and experience. I'd love to feel like we
Speaker 2: could help people younger to be able to get their
Speaker 2: place quicker. Yeah, can spend your twenties and your thirties
Speaker 2: not saying what you want to say at the table
Speaker 2: bit embarrassed, not wanting to be you know, and being
Speaker 2: judging me. I remember sitting in my first executive like, well,
Speaker 2: my senior leadership team meeting, and this person's presenting and
Speaker 2: no one understood a word of what person's presenting, right,
Speaker 2: but no one wanted to say thank you.
Speaker 1: And as soon as.
Speaker 2: Someone's the confience to say that doesn'tually make sense to
Speaker 2: make can you explain? And if it's like relief, But
Speaker 2: it's just that constant wanting to prove yourself.
Speaker 3: And you know, I think we often hear from people
Speaker 3: that say, just be more confident. Yeah, And that's a
Speaker 3: really easy thing for somebody else to say, but it's
Speaker 3: a really hard thing for the person who's not feeling
Speaker 3: confident to be confident. And so, well, how do I
Speaker 3: be more confident? And that's where I think others have
Speaker 3: got a lot to offer those people to say, I
Speaker 3: believe in you, You've got this. I know you understand
Speaker 3: whatever it is. I know you've got some.
Speaker 1: Great ideas about this.
Speaker 3: Please share them, you know, and just encourag each people
Speaker 3: rather than saying be more confident. That's easier said than done.
Speaker 2: I completely agree. I think that the authenticity will breed
Speaker 2: when you're being encouraged by others to be it. I
Speaker 2: don't think we encourage people enough to be you know,
Speaker 2: so I think that's great, great tip. So if I
Speaker 2: asked ten random people at PwC about your leadership style,
Speaker 2: what would you hope they would say to me about you?
Speaker 3: I would hope that they would say, lead with care,
Speaker 3: you get what you seek, pretty open book, happy to
Speaker 3: and comfortable to challenge when something really doesn't sit right
Speaker 3: with my values or the firms values, to call that out.
Speaker 3: And somebody who is there for others.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, it's quite empathetic hearing kind of if they
Speaker 2: had to sort of say, whats her growth theory is
Speaker 2: still because we all have it? Yeah, yeah, what's those
Speaker 2: areas of leadership? They like, Ah, that's probably my thing.
Speaker 1: Maybe be more strategic and have those longer term go.
Speaker 2: I doubt that. Do you think people find you easy
Speaker 2: to get to know.
Speaker 3: I think some people do, some people don't. It's interesting, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: but I think you get that with everybody. You connect
Speaker 3: with some and you don't connect with others necessarily. I'm
Speaker 3: pretty happy, go lucky kind of person, always see the
Speaker 3: positive side, ever, the optimist. I think most people would
Speaker 3: say I'm easy to get to know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay. I also think ego is a healthy part
Speaker 2: of being a leader, right. I don't know a good
Speaker 2: leader at the top who doesn't have a dose of
Speaker 2: ego in there. But also, keeping in checks really important.
Speaker 2: So how do you keep your ego in check in
Speaker 2: the sense of, you know, you've got promoted very young,
Speaker 2: you're in a very senior role, Like, how do you
Speaker 2: keep that in check and stay grounded as your career
Speaker 2: keeps rising.
Speaker 1: Your children are pretty good for that.
Speaker 3: I still feel like it's a massive privilege of what
Speaker 3: I get to do every day. So to me, I
Speaker 3: don't think I've got a huge ego. I certainly feel
Speaker 3: proud about things that we've achieved as a firm and
Speaker 3: things that our clients achieve, and personally you achieve, But
Speaker 3: I'm not somebody who really try and shout that from
Speaker 3: the rooftops or feel like I'm the most important.
Speaker 2: Actually, I remember standing at an event with you. We
Speaker 2: didn't really know to that well then and another couple
Speaker 2: of people mingle over and have a chat and I
Speaker 2: knew what your role was and who you were, but
Speaker 2: the guy who asked and you just said that you
Speaker 2: were the company you worked for. You didn't even mention
Speaker 2: your title. Yeah, so I think that's actually a beautiful example,
Speaker 2: like you could have and had them probably trying to
Speaker 2: win some business or something, and maybe you're avoiding that.
Speaker 2: And I astually like your answer because I think the
Speaker 2: word I like was you said the privilege. You still
Speaker 2: obviously feel every day, proud of it. We should do
Speaker 2: what you do. Yeah, maybe that's the point, right when
Speaker 2: people stop feeling privileged and that role or proud, that's
Speaker 2: where the ego kind of takes over.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's just true. I am.
Speaker 2: I mean, you're a very measured person. I can see
Speaker 2: that you say the truth and just speak sort of
Speaker 2: what's in your mind. But look, we all make mistakes.
Speaker 2: Was there any moment in your career you've had to
Speaker 2: course correct when you realize you weren't showing up in
Speaker 2: alignment with your values.
Speaker 3: There's Certainly, moments where you get so caught up in
Speaker 3: the juggernaut of things are really busy, and there's lots
Speaker 3: of competing demands, and certainly you tend to get distracted
Speaker 3: by the person who yells the loudest, and certainly that
Speaker 3: makes you go in a certain direction where you otherwise
Speaker 3: would like to be more things to more people.
Speaker 1: But I think that's probably I think it's pretty ill man.
Speaker 2: Yeah, when you're under time pressure, you mean sort.
Speaker 3: Of yeah, yeah, I mean there's lots of different things
Speaker 3: that get thrown at you, and you're either kind of
Speaker 3: a work pressure or home pressure or whatever it might be.
Speaker 3: And I think it's really hard to stay measured, which
Speaker 3: is what I like to do a lot of the time.
Speaker 1: That's when you make mistakes.
Speaker 2: Is it easy if you'd met when you've made a.
Speaker 3: Mistake easier now Earlier in your career, you go, oh,
Speaker 3: it's like it's going to be career ending, or it's
Speaker 3: going to be like it's just the most dramatic thing
Speaker 3: in your life. And then you get through it and
Speaker 3: you go, okay, yep, yep. As I've gone through my career,
Speaker 3: really tried to hone in on if I've made a mistake,
Speaker 3: I'll app asolutely own it, because if the shoes on
Speaker 3: the other foot, you don't like other people deflecting, or
Speaker 3: if somebody else has made a mistake, I'd rather they
Speaker 3: own it and we'll go okay, we'll work on it
Speaker 3: and we'll move on. Draw a line in the sand.
Speaker 3: And don't want to really hold people to their mistakes.
Speaker 3: You want to see the opportunity and the positivity that
Speaker 3: can come from learning from the experience or the issue
Speaker 3: that you've made a mistake, Well, whatever it is, just
Speaker 3: learn from it.
Speaker 2: Is that easy to do In an organization that's so
Speaker 2: successful and you know, not for its high performance and
Speaker 2: delivering to absolutely how does that play out?
Speaker 3: It's been a real journey over the years. I think
Speaker 3: rewind back years ago, it was nobody wanted to make
Speaker 3: a mistake. It was fear of God in your type.
Speaker 3: These days, as a firm, we've.
Speaker 1: Come a really long way.
Speaker 3: And certainly as a society, I think we've come a
Speaker 3: really long way in being vulnerable and saying yep, we've
Speaker 3: made a mistake. But the best way you can deal
Speaker 3: with that is by rectifying it, admitting it, moving on going.
Speaker 1: How do we make this right.
Speaker 2: I've seen it all right, And a lot of organizations
Speaker 2: were like that, the more of a command control kind
Speaker 2: of style, and we're aught to the right thing.
Speaker 1: That's free.
Speaker 2: Typical, you're a large organization with that really strong reputation.
Speaker 2: What have you seen? What are the things that you've
Speaker 2: specifically seen that the company did to make that step change,
Speaker 2: because you could have not it could have you know,
Speaker 2: said no, we're not going to that past. Yeah, particular leaders,
Speaker 2: particular behaviors, voices.
Speaker 3: Certainly, our culture has changed over the last few years
Speaker 3: and really focused on great governance, great processes, procedures, those
Speaker 3: sorts of things that you wrap around everyone to make
Speaker 3: sure that everybody understands what our accountability and responsibilities are
Speaker 3: to both each other, the firm, our clients, those sorts
Speaker 3: of things. So really robust policies, procedures, governance, that sort
Speaker 3: of thing, And certainly people in various leadership roles very
Speaker 3: very supportive of the culture of saying, Okay, if you've
Speaker 3: done everything, possible mistakes are happening, how do we deal
Speaker 3: with that and what's the gravity of it, how do
Speaker 3: we respond And just having that sort of safer environment
Speaker 3: for people to be able to not feel that they
Speaker 3: can't speak up early enough.
Speaker 2: I read a stat the other day eighty seven percent
Speaker 2: of people expect their leaders to provide them with personal
Speaker 2: development support and you'll be able to deal with their
Speaker 2: problems that they're bringing from home as well. Right, Which
Speaker 2: is really interesting because a long time ago, when I
Speaker 2: sort of talked about this topic, people like, not my problem,
Speaker 2: it's not the company's problem, right, But now it kind
Speaker 2: of has become it because we've got this flexible hybrid.
Speaker 2: You know, what do you see as the biggest challenges
Speaker 2: and keeping employees retained in the organization happy outside of
Speaker 2: paying mega salary and you know all that, Yeah, from
Speaker 2: all that other culture side, what are you sort of
Speaker 2: seeing as the biggest challenges.
Speaker 3: The biggest challenges are certainly making sure that we understand
Speaker 3: our team's home and work life, because they are such
Speaker 3: a blend these days. Helping people navigate through different stages
Speaker 3: in their lives from starting their careers.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's having.
Speaker 3: Relationships, marriage, children, whatever that might look like for each
Speaker 3: of our people, and just really bridging that gap between
Speaker 3: You spend a lot of time working with each other,
Speaker 3: and sometimes you spend more time working with people than
Speaker 3: they do spend with their families or with their loved
Speaker 3: ones outside of work or their hobbies or whatever it
Speaker 3: might be. So it's really the big challenge is helping
Speaker 3: people find the right balance of what works for them.
Speaker 3: Some people are workaholics, some people really like their flexibility.
Speaker 3: It's just so diverse, really diverse.
Speaker 2: Oh that's tricky, Yeah it is.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right.
Speaker 2: I think probably having those conversations earlier, you know what
Speaker 2: matters to people absolutely, Like I remember old interview processes.
Speaker 2: No one ever asked you, like, what was you know?
Speaker 1: Nobody asked you what you did outside of them.
Speaker 2: No, it wasn't really well of it really was that
Speaker 2: versus tailoring your working life a bit more to it
Speaker 2: works to people. I think is an interesting one. Wanted
Speaker 2: to ask you about conflict because you don't strike me
Speaker 2: as a person who is in a high conflict kind
Speaker 2: of character, but I could be wrong. How do you
Speaker 2: handle things when people don't see things the same way
Speaker 2: as you or don't care as much as you do.
Speaker 3: When people don't care as much as I do, I
Speaker 3: do struggle with that. You just have to peg yourself
Speaker 3: back a little bit and just understand where other people
Speaker 3: are coming from and that goes the same when people
Speaker 3: don't agree with what I might want to do or
Speaker 3: I believe the right answer is, you just have to
Speaker 3: unpack it and see all sides. Yeah, and then make
Speaker 3: a call. If you're in that position where you're the
Speaker 3: person making the call, I usually really like to make
Speaker 3: sure I'm taking on board and understanding other people's perspectives
Speaker 3: then making an informed call.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: What about with difficult conversations, because I find that's the
Speaker 2: other one that does no matter how long you're in
Speaker 2: your career, for you know, having that conversation about performance
Speaker 2: or letting somebody go yeah, still as uncomfortable as it was.
Speaker 3: Oh absolutely, yeah, absolutely, I think because for me it's
Speaker 3: all about the person and if there's a performance issue, sure,
Speaker 3: some things are black and white, and other things they're emotive.
Speaker 1: That makes it really.
Speaker 3: Difficult when you're talk talking about people and humans and
Speaker 3: decisions that might or outcomes that might really affect a
Speaker 3: person and their families or their way of life.
Speaker 1: That sort of stuff.
Speaker 3: So what I try to do is make sure we're
Speaker 3: being fair and reasonable coming into all of those conversations
Speaker 3: from place of care.
Speaker 2: So when we talk about empathy, how do you create
Speaker 2: connection with the people that work for you, because obviously,
Speaker 2: the more thing you get, I'm imagining you're distanced more
Speaker 2: and more, like, how do you say, connected to their
Speaker 2: real life and what's going on and so forth.
Speaker 3: I have this scene where a lot to think that
Speaker 3: I can converse somewhat with some of our young staff
Speaker 3: who has the same age.
Speaker 1: As my children. Oh, okay, technic.
Speaker 3: So that's the lingo I get at home can be
Speaker 3: translated to the lingo at work. It's about just getting
Speaker 3: to know the people.
Speaker 2: Do you have time for that though? In your job?
Speaker 1: Oh, you make time. You have to.
Speaker 3: We're a people business, and whether that's your clients or
Speaker 3: your team internally, you've definitely got to make time. It
Speaker 3: is hard because there's only a certain amount of hours
Speaker 3: in the day and everyone's got different roles and responsibilities
Speaker 3: and things they've got to execute on. But trying to
Speaker 3: make the time to connect with each person I think
Speaker 3: is really important. And then even if you don't one
Speaker 3: on one connect, just having that awareness of understanding what's
Speaker 3: going on through other people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and when you notice someone struggling, how do you
Speaker 2: show up for them?
Speaker 3: If it's something that I can help them with personally,
Speaker 3: then I will always endeavor to do so. If it's
Speaker 3: something somebody else is helping them with, then it's just
Speaker 3: being there for support and asking people what's going on
Speaker 3: for you?
Speaker 1: What can we do? I think we're really good at
Speaker 1: responding to making sure people have the tools and resources
Speaker 1: around them and the support around them that if there's
Speaker 1: something that they want to improve on or want to
Speaker 1: get better at, that we can help support with that.
Speaker 2: What about when you're struggling.
Speaker 3: I've got a great family that helped support and kind
Speaker 3: of pick you up when you're having a bad moment.
Speaker 3: But I've also got great people peer wise at work.
Speaker 3: I think in our environment, nobody wants to see anybody
Speaker 3: not having a positive experience, so we're very attuned to that.
Speaker 2: I feel like the last few years of consulting, I've
Speaker 2: noticed a lot more companies having those really honest conversations
Speaker 2: at the table. I think it was one organization I
Speaker 2: went to where they would go around and get everyone
Speaker 2: to sort of number where they're at in terms of stress.
Speaker 2: Then what do I need from people in this room
Speaker 2: right now?
Speaker 1: Yeap?
Speaker 2: And sometimes that's like I just need everyone to be
Speaker 2: a patient with me because I'm going through something bigger
Speaker 2: at home, and is that kind of Oh?
Speaker 3: Absolutely, I think we would spend as much time internally
Speaker 3: supporting our teams and our people, talking about what support
Speaker 3: our teams and people need, like as we do servicing clients.
Speaker 3: It's a really big part of what we do all
Speaker 3: throughout the year, regular check ins, those sorts of things.
Speaker 1: It's huge.
Speaker 2: Let's go back to seventeen year old Samantha just now,
Speaker 2: I sat on schoolies, but you've decided on this, that's sad.
Speaker 2: What's the key lessons you've learned over thirty years spanning
Speaker 2: this career. Yeah, what would you tell her now?
Speaker 3: I'd probably say not to be as hesitant and not
Speaker 3: to sort of second guess yourself throughout taking those extra
Speaker 3: opportunities or jumping.
Speaker 1: Right into things.
Speaker 3: I think if I look back, there were times you go, oh,
Speaker 3: I don't know whether I should do that, or am
Speaker 3: I right for that role or those types of things,
Speaker 3: And so for me it would be be more rest So, yeah,
Speaker 3: be a bit more of a risk taker.
Speaker 2: Okay, So then the next twenty years, theam what's a
Speaker 2: goal out there? Now? You don't do goals. I don't
Speaker 2: do goals, but is there a risk that you'd like
Speaker 2: to take that you sort of go.
Speaker 3: I think it'll be whatever the next opportunity is or
Speaker 3: wherever that presents itself, just going for it right, not
Speaker 3: overthinking it, really having a crack.
Speaker 2: I always like to finish on not always this question,
Speaker 2: but I've used it a few times. So I heard
Speaker 2: this from this harvest psychologist, and I thought it was
Speaker 2: such a great question to ask leaders. So, Sam, why
Speaker 2: should anyone be led by you?
Speaker 1: Gosh?
Speaker 3: Okay, I don't see myself as the leader. What I
Speaker 3: see is I create an environment where people can be
Speaker 3: at their best and we can do great things. So
Speaker 3: it's not necessarily for me why people should be led
Speaker 3: by me, but why people can work with me to
Speaker 3: make sure that we're bringing the best out in each other,
Speaker 3: and we're bringing the best to our clients, and we're
Speaker 3: bringing the best.
Speaker 1: To our communities. Oh, I love that. I like now
Speaker 1: I think about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, very humpable. Well, thank you. It's been amazing having
Speaker 2: you on here. I really enjoyed our conversation, So thank you,
Speaker 2: Thank you.