1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,560 Speaker 1: This podcast was recorded on the land of the Gatigel 2 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 1: people of the Uran Nation. Hello and welcome to the 3 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:11,240 Speaker 1: Real Story with Joe Hildeound an absolute pleasure to have 4 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:14,159 Speaker 1: your company. Another huge week. We're going to get the 5 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 1: real story behind this caravan of terror, the caravan packed 6 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 1: with explosives that appeared to be set for a terror 7 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: attack against the Jewish community. Plus what is the go 8 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: with all these reviews into trans kids and puberty blockers. Well, 9 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:33,159 Speaker 1: We've solved the Middle East peace crisis, so I'm going 10 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 1: to get it on a less controversial subject, trans riots. 11 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: And we are going to find out what is going 12 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: on with the Donald Has he just created peace in 13 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: the Middle East and ended a trade war with Canada 14 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:48,919 Speaker 1: all in the one week. All that, much much more 15 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 1: coming up first up, It's been another huge week in 16 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: Australian politics. Anthony Alberanezi has not called an election yet, 17 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 1: which means that he had to go back to Parliament 18 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 1: this week, and they have decided on a couple of things. 19 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 1: One is a national review into care for trans kids 20 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 1: and into the use of puberty blockers in kids who 21 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: are under the age of sixteen, which is when you 22 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:19,960 Speaker 1: go through puberty. So if you're going to block it, 23 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:23,039 Speaker 1: you want to get it in early. And also they 24 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:27,320 Speaker 1: put in a whole bunch of stuff to combat hate speech, 25 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: and a lot of people are saying, well, hang on 26 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:32,040 Speaker 1: a minute, what are you actually trying to do. Are 27 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:34,479 Speaker 1: you infringing on free speech? You're stopping people from speaking 28 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 1: their mind, And of course other people are saying, well 29 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: hang on, this doesn't go far enough. So let's just 30 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:43,480 Speaker 1: unpack both of those things. And both of them have 31 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:45,679 Speaker 1: a lot to do with my wife. My wife is 32 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 1: the communications director for Equality Australia, which is the LGBTQI 33 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 1: plus group that tries to do all these legal reforms 34 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 1: to make sure that anyone in that group is not 35 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 1: discriminated against. So you know, I have this in the 36 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 1: background at my house all the time, and that's my 37 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: little conflict of interests. So that's all out there on 38 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 1: the table. So this came about because in Cans, Queensland, 39 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:18,360 Speaker 1: a hospital there, a clinic catachtual hospital there gave puberty blockers, 40 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 1: it seems to a twelve year old without parental consent. 41 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 1: And this has obviously alarmed a lot of people, and 42 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:28,799 Speaker 1: rightly so, because that's not supposed to happen. You are 43 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 1: not meant to be able to give puberty blockers to 44 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 1: anybody unless you have their parent or guardian's consent, and 45 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:39,119 Speaker 1: so it would appear that this clinical hospital has done 46 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 1: the wrong thing and there's going to be a full 47 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:44,079 Speaker 1: blown investigation into what went on there and how that 48 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 1: was able to happen. The response by the Queensland State 49 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 1: government was to order a review into the whole lot, 50 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,080 Speaker 1: in a review into the treatments that are being doled 51 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:01,920 Speaker 1: out across the state, and to block the use of 52 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:04,640 Speaker 1: puberty blockers. So we're blocking the blockers at this stage 53 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 1: until that review has handed down its findings. And this 54 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:12,399 Speaker 1: is because there was a similar review in the UK 55 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 1: called the Cast Review, which had some very critical opinions 56 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 1: about the treatments that were being meted out over there. 57 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 1: The difference, of course, is that in the UK and 58 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 1: in Australia the treatments are very different and there is 59 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 1: no one who is meant to be getting puberty blockers 60 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 1: without their parents consent. And you can't have any surgery 61 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 1: at all if you are under the age of sixteen, 62 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 1: so you can only have interventions if you like that 63 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 1: delay puberty until you're an adult and then you can 64 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 1: make a decision about surgery after that. Now, I think 65 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: there was maybe one court case where that was able 66 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 1: to give puberty blockers to someone and overruled the products. 67 00:03:56,800 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 1: But by like it just simply doesn't happen. Large everything 68 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 1: that is blocked or delayed by puberty blockers can be undone, 69 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: so you get pretty much everything back mostly. I think 70 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: it's what my wife always says, mostly, Oh what doesn't 71 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: come back, she goes, or maybe that maybe the voice, 72 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 1: but anyway, so it's a pretty safe, kind of small 73 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 1: c conservative option for someone who thinks they're born in 74 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 1: the wrong body. I want to change gender from male 75 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 1: to female or female to male, but I'm still a kid. 76 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:31,719 Speaker 1: So what this does is just say, all right, let's 77 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:34,279 Speaker 1: just hit pause on that, wait till you've grown up, 78 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:36,599 Speaker 1: wait till you're an adult, and then if you still 79 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:40,160 Speaker 1: want to proceed, then you can as an informed adult, 80 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 1: and that transition will actually be easier because you haven't 81 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: traveled down the other route, if you like. So the 82 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:52,359 Speaker 1: Queensland State government says, right, we're going to have a 83 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 1: review into all this and we're going to stop that 84 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: in the meantime, and that has meant that transfer will 85 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 1: go hand. We'll hang on a minute. So you're saying 86 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 1: I'm going to have to go through through puberty as 87 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 1: the wrong gender, as a sex that I don't feel 88 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 1: like I belong to while your review takes place, and 89 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 1: god knows how long that's going to take, and then 90 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 1: if it comes back and says, I know, this is 91 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 1: all actually perfectly fine in world's best practice, there's a 92 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:22,160 Speaker 1: lot of experts say, oh, sorry, too late. I'm already 93 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 1: halfway to being a bloke, even though I feel like 94 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 1: I'm a female. So I don't know. That doesn't seem 95 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 1: that doesn't seem that fair to me. It doesn't seem 96 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 1: that sensible to me. The actual least intervention, if you like, 97 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 1: would be just to say, okay, can continue the puberty 98 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 1: blockers and just delay that decision until you're an adult. 99 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 1: And that would also, I think be the position of 100 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 1: the federal government, because the federal government then steps in 101 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:48,280 Speaker 1: and says, right, we're going to have our own review 102 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:52,480 Speaker 1: for the whole country. So we're going to do a 103 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:55,600 Speaker 1: review into all these treatments, but we're not going to 104 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:57,479 Speaker 1: block the blockers. In the meantime, we're not going to 105 00:05:57,520 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: ban anything in the meantime, we're just going to have 106 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 1: a review. And of course most people are thinking, well, 107 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 1: you know what, much rather have the federal government under 108 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 1: Albow doing a review into this sort of stuff than 109 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: having the next coalition government under Peter Dutton having a 110 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:16,720 Speaker 1: review this sort of stuff because they probably appoint slightly 111 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 1: different people to lead it, maybe come back with slightly 112 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: different conclusions. I don't know. I'm sure it will be 113 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 1: completely independent and even handed and fair and balanced, just 114 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: like me. But point being, the federal governments basically said, look, 115 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:31,039 Speaker 1: why don't we do it for everybody, and why don't 116 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:34,279 Speaker 1: we just chill out on the banning the puberty blockers 117 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:37,039 Speaker 1: in the meantime, and Queen's are going and says, if 118 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 1: you know what, if you want to pay for your review, fine, 119 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 1: yeah you can just do that. We'll just go after 120 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 1: the people at Cann's Hospital. So it's a nice little 121 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 1: political solution that has what is probably going to be 122 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:55,799 Speaker 1: is slightly more benign, open minded, even handed approach rather 123 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 1: than the review into these practices. Because of this terrible 124 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 1: thing that occurred, we have to fix and make sure 125 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: it never happens again. And it also takes the issue 126 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:07,840 Speaker 1: off the agenda before the election because the federal government 127 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 1: review I don't think is going to begin until one 128 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 1: hundred days from now, one hundred days after its announced, 129 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 1: and that means that they can just refer all questions 130 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 1: about this to the review throughout the election campaign. So 131 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: well done, Elbow, well played. Just killed off a beautiful 132 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: little culture war time bomb that was just ticking there 133 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:28,559 Speaker 1: in the meantime. Another culture war time bomb, of course, 134 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: is hate speech, which is often what the censorious left 135 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 1: call anything they disagree with. It's like, oh, no, we 136 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 1: support freedom of speech, but you can't say this because 137 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 1: that's hate speech. You can't say that. And again we 138 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 1: saw during the Voice debate people saying, oh, you can't 139 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 1: say that, that's misinformation just because you disagree with the Voice. 140 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: Department had people saying if you didn't support it, you 141 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 1: had to be racist, or that anyone campaigned against it 142 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 1: was basically racist, which is of course news to the 143 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 1: two most prominent campaigners against it, who were both Indigenous, 144 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: and I was supporting the Voice. I did support it, 145 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 1: and at the same time, looking at these claims by 146 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 1: my side of the campaign, thinking oh my god, this 147 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 1: is just absolutely disastrous. And so when the federal government 148 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 1: tried to legislate against misinformation on the internet, I thought 149 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: that's probably going to go the same way, and sure 150 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 1: enough it did, and they just let that one die 151 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 1: on a branch and that was never spoken of again. 152 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 1: In fact, you've probably forgotten the Misinformation Bill ever existed, 153 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 1: because that is exactly what the government wants you to do. 154 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 1: Just never happened. It never happened. In fact, if you 155 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 1: even think that you remember the misinformation Bill, that's just misinformation. However, 156 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 1: this new hate speech stuff is different. There's lobby groups 157 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 1: for people in my wife works for one of them, 158 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:55,559 Speaker 1: who actually think that it doesn't go far enough, because 159 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 1: a great deal of fanfare was made about how this 160 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 1: would be. It would be an offense to incite violence, 161 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 1: which I support one hundred percent, because, of course, the 162 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:09,319 Speaker 1: limit to free speech is not being able to yell 163 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 1: fire in a crowded theater. So that's one of the benchmarks. 164 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 1: Everyone talks about. Freedom of speech. Doesn't mean to say, hey, 165 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 1: bash that guy on the street just there. That's not 166 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: free speech. That is excitement to violence. And of course 167 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 1: saying anything reckless like yelling fire in a theater where 168 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 1: people could get hurt when there's not actually a fire. 169 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: That's not freedom of speech, that's just being a knob end. 170 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 1: So there is that no incitement to violence. That's all 171 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 1: very well and good, But there are people who say, well, 172 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: hang on a minute, we have to have anti vilification 173 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 1: laws as well, so you can't vilify someone. It's not 174 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:44,680 Speaker 1: just enough to say, you know, you can't encourage someone 175 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 1: to be hurt, to vilify someone, to expose them to 176 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 1: contempt or ridicule, that should also be included. And the 177 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 1: example that was put to me is if you were saying, 178 00:09:56,080 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: in the context of the trans debate, you know, trans 179 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 1: peoples are sickos who must die, that's obviously an incitement 180 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 1: to violence. But if you just say trans people are sickos, 181 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:12,439 Speaker 1: then that doesn't get captured because you weren't actually inciting 182 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: violence against them. And that is what some of the 183 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 1: language around this issue has come down to at times, 184 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 1: as the Internet is a very dark and frightening place 185 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 1: except for my Instagram page anyway. So that is the 186 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 1: debate that is going on in Parliament at the moment. 187 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:35,680 Speaker 1: The big difference here though, as opposed to previous attempts 188 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 1: to censor free speech. Is this time it's been driven 189 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 1: by the outbreak of anti semitism, and this time it 190 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 1: has been driven by pressure on the government to do 191 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 1: more to stop the violence and the hatred that is 192 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:57,679 Speaker 1: being directed towards Jewish Australians, and it is just out 193 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: of control. We are talking, you know, people and will 194 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 1: be talking more about the latest terror threat, but even 195 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 1: leaving that aside, you know, synagogue being fire bombed, homes 196 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 1: being targeted, specific people's homes being targeted, not just with 197 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 1: graffiti and cars being fire bombed out the front of houses. 198 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:21,959 Speaker 1: This is really really serious stuff. And because it's often 199 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 1: the conservative side of politics that is more sympathetic to 200 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 1: these concerns, and it's the conservative side of politics that 201 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 1: has been telling the government it hasn't been doing enough 202 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:36,200 Speaker 1: to protect the Jewish community, it needs to crack down 203 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 1: on anti semitism. And because it's the conservative side of 204 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 1: politics that is usually most concerned about any infringement on 205 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:50,320 Speaker 1: freedom of speech, suddenly these these laws don't look so 206 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:53,319 Speaker 1: bad anymore. Suddenly the sort of people who would normally 207 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:55,200 Speaker 1: be jumping up and down and saying no, no, no, 208 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: that's an infringement on free speech. You can't just tell 209 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 1: people not to say something because it might just upset 210 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 1: or offend or humiliate someone. Suddenly they're going, oh, oh, 211 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 1: that's actually what we called for. Oh okay, no worries. 212 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:13,680 Speaker 1: And again the government, I think knows this and realizes 213 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 1: that this is the time to thread the needle and 214 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: actually have people on the right side of politics, either 215 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 1: by accident or design, suddenly feeling like they have to 216 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: support restrictions on what people can and can't say. And again, 217 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 1: I fully support that when it comes to incitement to violence. 218 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 1: Not quite sure if I support it in all other areas, 219 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 1: even including vilification or humiliation or contempt, because of course, 220 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:48,679 Speaker 1: some people's definition of humiliation is very different to other 221 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 1: people's definition of humiliation. Some people just can't take a joke. 222 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 1: Although my wife is not one of them, so if 223 00:12:55,679 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 1: she is listening to this, I'm with you all the way, honey. 224 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 1: And now let's go to what I've decided should be 225 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 1: a new regular segment on the podcast called What the 226 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: Donald Is Doing, and that Donald has just scored a 227 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 1: couple of big wins this week. It is just surreal 228 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 1: the way he does this. I've spoken before about how 229 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 1: He is a master of madman diplomacy. This guy is 230 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 1: so crazy that his enemies, his allies, the people he's 231 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 1: negotiating with, don't know what he's going to do next, 232 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 1: and they don't know if he's actually going to follow 233 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 1: through with all the crazy stuff that he says he's 234 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:39,559 Speaker 1: going to do. And so as a result, we saw 235 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 1: Donald say if all the hostages aren't returned by the 236 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 1: time I'm sworn in as president, then there will be 237 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 1: hell to pay. And I'm just going to just basically 238 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:50,679 Speaker 1: nuke the joint. I'm just going to rebelize the whole lot, 239 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 1: and was like, is he serious? What is his man? 240 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:55,719 Speaker 1: Is he going to do this either way? Wouldn't you 241 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 1: know it? Just before he gets sworn in, humas returns 242 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:02,679 Speaker 1: all the hostages's a deal too, And he's done it 243 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: again with his tariff plannet. Donald Trump is the only 244 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 1: person I know who can make tariff's fun. But he's 245 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 1: announced that there's going to be a twenty five percent 246 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 1: tariff on goods from Canada and in twenty five percent 247 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 1: tariff on goods from Mexico. And this is because they're 248 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 1: apparently not doing enough to address the fentanyl crisis, the 249 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 1: drug that keeps pouring over the borders from all those 250 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 1: bad countries to beautiful, pure America in the eyes of 251 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 1: the Donald, and of course the people smuggling and the 252 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: rest of it. So Donald Trump isn't actually imposing these 253 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 1: tariffs for any real economic reasons. He's not even really 254 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: pretending to. He's just using it as a bargaining chip 255 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: to say, you better do what I want. Just like 256 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 1: with the with the mass you know, he probably would 257 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 1: have imposed a tariff on them, he had the choice 258 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: and said, do what I tell you. I'm going to 259 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 1: impose these taffs. And of course all parties, you know, 260 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 1: all the serious people, even erstwhile Trump supports that this 261 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 1: is terrible, this is awful. This will destroy the US 262 00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 1: and Canadian economies, and it's just going to be durable 263 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: for everybody. And Justin Trudeau, the outgoing Prime Minister of Canada, 264 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 1: he was high and mighty, hand on heart, saying this 265 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 1: is insane, this is crazy, This will hurt people, this 266 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 1: will hurt everybody. Americans have to rise up and tell 267 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 1: Donald Trump he's got a back down. And then he 268 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 1: comes out and says, all right, well, we're gonna put 269 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 1: twenty five percent tariffs on you too? How do you 270 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 1: like them apples? It's all more. Donald Trump's terrible, He's reckless. 271 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 1: You know, this is not the way to go. We 272 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 1: shouldn't be doing this. This is nuts. Fast forward to 273 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 1: this week and suddenly Justin Trudeau's tone has kind of 274 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: changed a little bit. This is the tweet that he 275 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: put out just a day or two ago. So I 276 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 1: just had a good call with President Trump. Canada is 277 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 1: implementing our one point three billion dollar border plan, reinforcing 278 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: the border with new choppers, technology and personnel, enhanced coordination 279 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 1: with our American partners, and increased resources to stop the 280 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: flow of fentanel. Nearly ten thousand frontline personnel are and 281 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: will be working on protecting the border. In addition, Canada 282 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 1: is making new commitments to a point of fentanyl za 283 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: don't we love a czar? I love Azar. We will 284 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 1: list cartels as terrorists in shore twenty four seven Eyes 285 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 1: on the Border launch a Canada US joint strike force 286 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 1: to combat organized crime, fentanyl and money laundering. I've also 287 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: signed a new intelligence directive on organized crime and fentanyl 288 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 1: and we will be backing it with two hundred million dollars. 289 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 1: In other words, absolutely everything Donald Trump wanted. In fact, 290 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: I think he was just throwing some extra stuff on 291 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: the list just for fun. So again, Madman diplomacy, that's 292 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 1: how it works, people, And Trump is doing it in 293 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 1: Israel too. If it works on Canada, well it's got 294 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 1: to work on the Middle East. So Trump has just 295 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 1: come out and said that basically, the US is going 296 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 1: to take over Gaza. It's just going to take over Gaza, 297 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 1: and it's going to fix everything. But this is the thing. 298 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 1: It's not going to fix everything as a political problem 299 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 1: or even a military problem, or even the humanitarian problem. 300 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 1: It's going to fix everything by rebuilding. It's going to 301 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:10,520 Speaker 1: redevelop Gaza. He's going to create it as this beautiful riviera, 302 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 1: that's what he says. It's going to make it the 303 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 1: riviera of the Middle East. And Gaza has some pretty 304 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:19,400 Speaker 1: nice beaches, it's got some sweat, like Gaza should be 305 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:23,400 Speaker 1: prime real estate. And that is the one thing that 306 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 1: Donald Trump really respects. The one thing he appreciates is 307 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:33,440 Speaker 1: real estate. And so while everybody for the last half 308 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:37,159 Speaker 1: a century or more has been seeing this through the 309 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 1: eyes of a politician or a freedom fighter or a 310 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 1: terrorist or a nation state that fears for its own existence. 311 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 1: Donald Trump has looked at the problem like a property developer, 312 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 1: and you know what, I don't know if it's going 313 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 1: to work, but nothing else has, so let's give it 314 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 1: a shot. Now. One of the biggest stories that has 315 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:11,160 Speaker 1: exploded over the past week, although thankfully not literally, has 316 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 1: been the shock discovery of this caravan packed with explosive 317 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: that seemed to be intended for a terror attack at 318 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 1: a Jewish site. Now, not only is that big enough 319 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:26,400 Speaker 1: news on its own and extremely disturbing enough on its own, 320 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 1: but there are now questions as to whether the Prime 321 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: Minister even knew that this threat had been uncovered until 322 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,359 Speaker 1: it was revealed by the Daily Telegraph. Well, joining me 323 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:42,879 Speaker 1: now is part of the team at the Telegraph that 324 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 1: actually broke this story days after this caravan was discovered, 325 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:49,639 Speaker 1: and he joins me on the real story right now. 326 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 1: Josh Hanrahan, how are you welcome to the show? Joe. 327 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 2: I'm good. 328 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:54,719 Speaker 1: Thank you for having me mate. It's an absolute pleasure, 329 00:18:54,800 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: It absolute extraordinary yarn that you and myz Mark and 330 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 1: the team at the Telly uncovered. Just talk us through 331 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 1: the basics of it. How it came across your desk 332 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 1: in so far as you can reveal that and what 333 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:10,199 Speaker 1: the sort of nuts and bolts of the yarn r. 334 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's been a lot of talk about how it 335 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:15,159 Speaker 2: came across our desk. Ever since it progress, there's been 336 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 2: a lot of talk about, you know, how was this leaked? 337 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:22,879 Speaker 2: Because for nine days after this caravan was first discovered 338 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 2: it it was a tightly held secret within the New 339 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:29,200 Speaker 2: Soiel's Police Force, the Australian Federal Police Force, ASIO, the 340 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 2: Spy Agency and a number of other policing agencies across 341 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 2: the country until Moz and I there was a conversation 342 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 2: that was had with somebody who happened to mention this 343 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,159 Speaker 2: discovery at Duruell. Now if you go back to I 344 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 2: think it was about the twenty first of January, we 345 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:49,640 Speaker 2: got I got sent an email as many other people 346 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 2: on the offs did, with what we call string of vision, 347 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:57,679 Speaker 2: which is vision. There's some video, some stills of raids, 348 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:00,360 Speaker 2: police raids out at Durall that are taken by these 349 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 2: guys who literally just are listening to emergencies services scanners 350 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 2: yep and go to wherever they think something might be 351 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 2: happening and so they heard about something going on out 352 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:10,880 Speaker 2: Dural and they went there. We asked the police that day, 353 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 2: hey what's this about? 354 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 1: And nothing. 355 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 2: Shut up shop. One person said to me, you might 356 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 2: want to keep digging, but to be honest, I didn't 357 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 2: even really give that a second thought until, as I said, 358 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 2: nine days later and somebody said, essentially, there's been a 359 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 2: caravan found out at Dural on Drywn Road, packed with 360 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 2: explosives and a couple of notes inside with the addresses 361 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 2: of the Great Synagogue in Sydney and the Holocaust Museum 362 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 2: which is down there just you know, part of darling 363 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 2: Hurst King across there, and also another note that said 364 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 2: f the Jews. And so clearly, you know, in this 365 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 2: heightened time of tension and anti Semitic attacks, this was 366 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,199 Speaker 2: off the scale. And so what we did was we 367 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 2: kind of discussed among ourselves and then had a conversation 368 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 2: with Ben English, our editor, and then we were at 369 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:05,159 Speaker 2: a point where we're going, okay, well this is clearly 370 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,399 Speaker 2: being kept secret, so so what should we do with it? 371 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:13,200 Speaker 2: And we have really good relationships with Niseel's police, the 372 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 2: Federal police too, and many other agencies because this is 373 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:18,439 Speaker 2: what we do day in day out, we deal with 374 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 2: these guys and what they're investigating. And my view, as 375 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 2: always and Mos is the same, that you're going to 376 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 2: get further by being friends with people then by burning people. 377 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. 378 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 2: Absolutely, And so we kind of went to them and said, hey, 379 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:33,679 Speaker 2: this is what we've heard, what's going on? What do 380 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:35,680 Speaker 2: you want us to do with it? Clearly you've kept 381 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:38,920 Speaker 2: it secret, so is there a reason and if so, 382 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:42,720 Speaker 2: can you please explain what it is? And having had 383 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:45,640 Speaker 2: those relationships that have gone on for years, in MOS's case, 384 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:50,240 Speaker 2: decades before we were born, we trust the fact that 385 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:51,679 Speaker 2: they'll be pretty reasonable with us in ye. 386 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:54,400 Speaker 1: And so basically you go to them said, look, we've 387 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:57,719 Speaker 1: got all this stuff, and then you sit down and 388 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:01,639 Speaker 1: have a conversation about just how much you're going to public. 389 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 1: I mean, the ball is in your court, isn't it. 390 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 1: You've got the information, but you don't want to jeopardize 391 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 1: an ongoing police investigation, presumably, And so you're sitting down 392 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,120 Speaker 1: with the cops having a conversation about what you can 393 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 1: and can't publish. You're obviously pushing for as much as possible, 394 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 1: they're obviously pushing for as little as possible. But at 395 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 1: least you kind of know the cards that the other 396 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 1: is holding, and then you get a result that doesn't 397 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 1: actually harm the investigation. Is that a fair Yeah. 398 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:30,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a really good way to put it. I mean, 399 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 2: to be honest, it was scary, you know when you 400 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:38,159 Speaker 2: hear when you first heard about it, because if you 401 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 2: take it at its highest, there's potentially a terror attack 402 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 2: planned in the middle of Sydney. And so I guess 403 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 2: when you say, you know, we're pushing for as much 404 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 2: as possible to a degree, I mean I think we 405 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 2: will probably course courses. And so there was back and 406 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 2: forth phone calls, and initially, you know, we said, if 407 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:00,480 Speaker 2: this is if you're trying to foil a terror attack, yeah, 408 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 2: we're not going to get in your way. Our egos 409 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,359 Speaker 2: aren't that big that we're going to put people in 410 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 2: this city at harm. And eventually a few hours later, 411 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 2: maybe a bit more, they came back and said, okay, 412 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:12,880 Speaker 2: we'll look and publish. 413 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:17,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. So again, so the idea that in any way 414 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,439 Speaker 1: that this compromise or jeopardized investigation is obviously bollocks. The 415 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:23,360 Speaker 1: cops ended up green lighting it. Why was it secret 416 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 1: then for so long? So the story that we seem 417 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 1: to have is that the cops, the federal police, as 418 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:35,919 Speaker 1: you and also Chris Mins, the Premier of New South Wales, 419 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:37,679 Speaker 1: as you would expect because he's the head of the 420 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 1: government that obviously runs the cops, and of course is 421 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:42,399 Speaker 1: where the vast majority of the danti Simic attacks have 422 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: taken place and where this alleged terror attack or seeming 423 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,439 Speaker 1: terror attack was going to take place. And yet it 424 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:54,160 Speaker 1: never gets to the PM. Apparently we don't know. He's 425 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 1: not answering co but presumably if he would have just 426 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:01,159 Speaker 1: said yes, I was told, this seems to me passing strange. 427 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 1: Surely it should have been up to the AFP or 428 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 1: AZO to give a security bred in to the PM 429 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:10,360 Speaker 1: and they listen, We've got a potentially live investigation into 430 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:14,199 Speaker 1: a potential terror attack that is the latest kind of 431 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 1: escalation of this pattern of anti Semitic attacks. We're saying, 432 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,200 Speaker 1: why did that not happen? I can understand why. If 433 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:24,920 Speaker 1: Mins was told and said this is top secret, he says, right, 434 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:27,680 Speaker 1: I'm not going to go around blabbing to other politicians 435 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 1: or telling the PERM It's not his role. Surely the 436 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: federal security agencies should have told the Prime minister, shouldn't 437 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 1: they or why wouldn't they? 438 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 2: Yes, so the caravans found on the nineteenth of January, 439 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:44,920 Speaker 2: Chris Mins is told on the twentieth of January, and presumably, 440 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 2: as you say before, because Anthony Albanezy want to answer 441 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,480 Speaker 2: the question, we assume he hasn't been told. I mean, 442 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:54,120 Speaker 2: that's what we've been told behind the scenes. But your 443 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 2: question of why, no one can answer it. Police are 444 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 2: confused as to white because as well as police did 445 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 2: their job, yes, they told the premier and you saw 446 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 2: I was. Police's obligation isn't to tell. 447 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 1: Right exactly and neither is the premiers. 448 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:11,640 Speaker 2: No, no, no, I agree, And I know there's been 449 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 2: questions around. You know, there was a national Cabinet meeting 450 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 2: where all the state premiers, territory leaders get together with 451 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:20,199 Speaker 2: the Prime Minister. And I know chrispins and said he 452 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 2: didn't think that was the right perform and I think 453 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 2: that's completely completely understandable. I don't know why the Federal 454 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 2: Police didn't tell Anthony Albanezi. 455 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 1: I don't know. 456 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:32,200 Speaker 2: I honestly don't know, but I know it is confused. 457 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 2: Every other agency work on this investigation as well. I 458 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:39,159 Speaker 2: think they were shocked when when they found out the primn't. 459 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:40,680 Speaker 1: I dare say Albow might be a little bit disappointed 460 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 1: if it wasn't, because it's it's dragged him needlessly through 461 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:46,119 Speaker 1: the ringer, hasn't it. 462 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,360 Speaker 2: This has gone from a policing story to a political 463 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:53,199 Speaker 2: story largely, which is really interesting. So, you know, in 464 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:58,199 Speaker 2: the early stages it's it's us policing hacks, you know, 465 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 2: using our sources to find out what we can find out. 466 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 2: But very quickly it became a beautiful little It's. 467 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,639 Speaker 1: Incredible, that's right. Yeah, it's one of those firestorms that 468 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 1: keeps gathering more fuel that makes it blow up, but 469 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 1: makes it gather more fuel, and so it becomes sort 470 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 1: of self perpetuated. I want to talk just the nature 471 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 1: and again we don't know. There's obviously an investigation ongoing, 472 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:23,440 Speaker 1: but it is the weirdest looking terror plot I've ever 473 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 1: seen in all my days, Like there is there is 474 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:30,480 Speaker 1: something very strange about So these are industrial explosives using 475 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 1: the mining industry. I believe you can understand, I suppose 476 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:39,159 Speaker 1: that element of it. But to have a you know, 477 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 1: notes left with the explosives themselves, with the intended locations, 478 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 1: you know, with the notes, saying if the Jews, I'm 479 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:49,880 Speaker 1: certainly not downplaying the seriousness of the threat, and I've 480 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:53,879 Speaker 1: been very outspoken about just how dangerous and deadly anti 481 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,600 Speaker 1: Semitism can get very very quickly. But this seems to 482 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:01,440 Speaker 1: be you know, keep thinking to myself, if you're gonna 483 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 1: plan a terrorist attack, just memorize the address, don't write 484 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:07,919 Speaker 1: it down and leave it with the explosives, you know. 485 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 1: So this seems to be And again, a couple of 486 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 1: the persons of interests, colorful local identities, I think you 487 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:16,680 Speaker 1: might call it. They seem to have their life doesn't 488 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:21,919 Speaker 1: seem to have gone the way they'd hoped. But this 489 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 1: seems to be kind of pretty rough shot, pretty weird. 490 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 1: What are your thoughts on who is orchestrating this and 491 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:31,920 Speaker 1: for what purpose? 492 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,160 Speaker 2: There's plenty of theories going around, as you said before, 493 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,000 Speaker 2: Joe the one of the A couple of hours after 494 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 2: we broke the story, Chris Mins and Dave Hudson, the 495 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:44,920 Speaker 2: deputy Newsorl's police commissioner, stood up and held a big 496 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:48,360 Speaker 2: press conference, and Dave Hudson said that they had already 497 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 2: made multiple arrests on the periphery of the investigation and 498 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 2: so soon after that press conference, we broke to who 499 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 2: those people were, and there's a woman called Tammy Ferusia yep, 500 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,439 Speaker 2: her boyfriend Scott Marshall, and a third man called Simon 501 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:07,680 Speaker 2: Nichols who's Scott Marshall's mate, And those three people are 502 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:13,880 Speaker 2: all already behind bars on remand for completely unrelated alleged crimes. 503 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:19,959 Speaker 2: Tammy is currently facing charges over another alleged Andy Semitic 504 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,920 Speaker 2: attack at Wulara last year, Scott Marshall's facing weapons and 505 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:30,480 Speaker 2: drugs charges, and Simon Nichols is facing essentially ca rebirthing challenges. 506 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:35,000 Speaker 2: So nothing related to a potential terror plot. But what 507 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 2: police believes that those three people were involved in the 508 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 2: purchase of that caravan. 509 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 1: They asked for a caravan on social Man And again 510 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 1: this is where this looks like it's sort of. 511 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 2: I've called it. Tammy Fruzi had been arrested the week 512 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 2: before and I got in contact with one of the 513 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 2: people who knew her. I've been chatting with him back 514 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 2: and forth in it. And when I found out that 515 00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 2: it was her that they were looking at over this 516 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 2: potential terror plot, I messaged said, mate, Tammy and caravans 517 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:04,960 Speaker 2: does that ring any bells. He said, yeah, I remember 518 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:06,040 Speaker 2: a Facebook. 519 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 1: Post say has anybody got a caravan? 520 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 2: And he sends it to me from December sixth, right, 521 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 2: and police had already said they thought the caravan had 522 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 2: been put at Drew on December seventh. I'm going this 523 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 2: and car't be right. And I've called a cop and 524 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 2: said hey, I've got this and they said a bit 525 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 2: so yeah, I wouldn't you wouldn't be but unbelievable. So 526 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 2: that the why, I mean, who would want to do this? 527 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 2: There's lots of theories. One theory that some people have 528 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 2: given a lot of a lot of prominence to is 529 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 2: the fact that a criminal may be setting up a 530 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 2: big plot or a fake plot to essentially use that 531 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,360 Speaker 2: as a bargaining chip with police to say, I know 532 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 2: about this terror plot that's having It's going to happen 533 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 2: if no one had found the caravan before then. So 534 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 2: there's a caravan loaded with explosives out at Dural and 535 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 2: the addresses of a couple of Jewish at early parole? 536 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 2: Can I get out? 537 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 1: Early? 538 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 2: Cops are saying, that's not as stupid as it sounds. 539 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 2: There is also the flat out thought that potentially somebody 540 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 2: was going to plant this caravan outside either the Great 541 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 2: Synagogue or a Jewish museum and detonate it. 542 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 1: I mean, there was some suggestion that possibly outlaw motorcycle 543 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 1: gangs might have something to do with that. We know 544 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 1: that a lot of them have very strong connections to 545 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 1: Islamic extremism. Is it someone maybe saying, well, I've got 546 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,480 Speaker 1: these useless idiots here who will do anything we say, 547 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 1: do we just do this to scare the Jesus out 548 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:41,960 Speaker 1: of the Jewish community, because that's what we like to do, 549 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 1: which is what the other attacks have been there, just 550 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 1: to scare people. 551 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 2: Exactly, I mean, you know. And then there is also 552 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 2: that thought that, yeah, somebody had put it there hoping 553 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 2: that it would be found and that it would blow 554 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 2: up into a massive story like this and create fear. 555 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 2: I think it's a long way from Dural too, you know, 556 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 2: the point of actually blowing it up from the I mean, 557 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 2: it's a long way from this carrier and being found 558 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 2: in Dural two it actually being blown up. But police 559 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 2: have to take this at as highest that that is 560 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:15,200 Speaker 2: potentially what could have happened that. 561 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 1: You can't you can't underplay this at all, No, absolutely not. 562 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 1: And this is the thing. I mean, I think the 563 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 1: fact that this is the latest escalation of a pattern 564 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 1: of anti Semitic attacks where it appears that actual individuals 565 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:32,000 Speaker 1: specifically have been targeted. We know that Alex Rifkin, the 566 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 1: head of the Executive Council of Australian Jury. They went 567 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 1: to his old address. God only knows what would have 568 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 1: happened if he was home, or if he said, hey, 569 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:41,760 Speaker 1: what are you doing at the front door and they've 570 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,880 Speaker 1: got a jerry can and god knows what else. So 571 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 1: that is what makes it credible, isn't it. And I 572 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 1: can't really think of a point, certainly not in my lifetime, 573 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 1: where a terror attack deliberately targeting Jewish Australians would have 574 00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 1: actually been credible in the past. I mean, is it 575 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:04,959 Speaker 1: is amazing the atmosphere that has just suddenly crept up 576 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 1: on the country in the last year in a bit. 577 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, it really is, especially considering because I mean, obviously, 578 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,440 Speaker 2: when October seven happened back in twenty twenty three, there 579 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:18,200 Speaker 2: was you know, a massive outpouring from both sides here 580 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,800 Speaker 2: and then it probably peeded off for a bit. But 581 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,400 Speaker 2: for some reason, off the back of I would say 582 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 2: it's honest, the one year anniversary, it's really just kicked 583 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,880 Speaker 2: up to a level that You're right, you've never seen. 584 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 2: I've never seen. I've never seen anything like it, you know. 585 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 2: I mean you probably have to go back to the 586 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:41,080 Speaker 2: Cronella rights to think about something that is purely race based. 587 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, I mean I was about to go back 588 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 1: to that because I remember I did a bit of 589 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 1: stuff and I've got nowhere near the stripes that you 590 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 1: do or most does. But you know, I did a 591 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 1: bit of work exposing white supremacists, and I had sort 592 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 1: of sources that put me in touch with some of 593 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:57,120 Speaker 1: their kind of chat rooms. I'm not sure if they're 594 00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 1: dark web, but sort of certainly not out in the light, 595 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 1: and exposed a couple of these people and working in 596 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,719 Speaker 1: surprising positions. But the police, when I spoke to them 597 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:10,400 Speaker 1: about these sorts of things, would say, listen, we don't 598 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 1: even want to give these guys credit. They're seeking publicity. 599 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 1: They're a tiny, tiny number. If you exaggerate their threat 600 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 1: or their impact or what they're doing, that actually just 601 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:24,920 Speaker 1: sort of helps them. And I had a slightly different view. 602 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 1: I thought, these people need to be exposed. I think 603 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 1: about that all the time, because that has all changed 604 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 1: completely now, hasn't it. Like the escalation of that threat 605 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,480 Speaker 1: to the Jewish community is not just that tiny number 606 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 1: of sort of low level cases, you know, like you 607 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 1: know in cells, you know, sitting on their computers or 608 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,200 Speaker 1: sitting in their bedrooms with their little portrait of Hitler 609 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:48,680 Speaker 1: that they worship each night. It seems to have really 610 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 1: kind of got out of the bag, the genies out 611 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 1: of the bottle, isn't it. You are the cops telling 612 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:57,720 Speaker 1: you that they have not seen this level of anti 613 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 1: Semitism in the community so overt, so violent, so open. 614 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:06,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, yeah, yeah, absolutely, And I think you're right. 615 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:13,000 Speaker 2: The number of incidents has been shocking. Some of the 616 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,399 Speaker 2: incidents have been really scary, you know, you talk about 617 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 2: the attack on Alex Rifkin's house. There was a car's 618 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:23,719 Speaker 2: fire bomb, there was a childcare center at marou. Some 619 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:28,680 Speaker 2: of the other ones have been less serious, like just graffiti. 620 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:33,760 Speaker 2: Now add them all together and they're taking a serious 621 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:35,560 Speaker 2: toll on the Jewish community. You speak to anybody in 622 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:39,360 Speaker 2: that community, and those graffiti attacks aren't just graffiti attacks. 623 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:41,360 Speaker 2: By the time that there's been dozens and dozens, and 624 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 2: you know, you're driving past these words on the side 625 00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 2: of the street as you go to work or school. 626 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:50,399 Speaker 2: But a caravan loaded with explosives to potentially blow up 627 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:54,920 Speaker 2: two of the most significant buildings in that culture in 628 00:34:54,960 --> 00:35:00,879 Speaker 2: this city is so far on another level. Think if 629 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:03,200 Speaker 2: that had if that had happened, I don't know what 630 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:05,280 Speaker 2: the city would be looking like at a minute. 631 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:10,239 Speaker 1: Well, thank god it did end. Amazing reporting, Amazing journalism. 632 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:14,240 Speaker 1: Josh Hanrahan, a crime reporter at The Daily Telegraph. Congratulations 633 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:17,680 Speaker 1: on just a killer scoop and hopefully thwarting a terrorist attack. 634 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:20,520 Speaker 1: Good on you, mate, and thanks for coming on the show. 635 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:26,239 Speaker 1: No pleasure. Well that's all we have time for this week. 636 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for your company. And of course, if 637 00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:29,880 Speaker 1: you want to get in touch with this, if you 638 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:31,879 Speaker 1: want us to look into anything, if you want one 639 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:35,200 Speaker 1: of my Joe Explaining rants or any of your questions answered, 640 00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:39,279 Speaker 1: just email The Real Story at Nova Podcasts dot com 641 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:41,440 Speaker 1: dot au or you can hit me up on my 642 00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:44,080 Speaker 1: Instagram page, which is all I have left because I 643 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:46,799 Speaker 1: got nothing but my looks, got nothing left to lean 644 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,160 Speaker 1: on but my looks. These days at Joe Underscore Hildebrand, 645 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,239 Speaker 1: you can slide into my DMS plus you can leave 646 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:55,880 Speaker 1: us a review or let's face it, who bans the 647 00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:58,600 Speaker 1: lead reviews? Just leave us a rating, just five stars. 648 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,640 Speaker 1: All you have to do. Just that's done. And you 649 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:04,680 Speaker 1: can read me every Monday and Saturday in the Daily 650 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 1: Telegraph and various news mastheads if you can't get enough 651 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:10,320 Speaker 1: of me, that is, and if you can, I'll just 652 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:11,080 Speaker 1: see you next week.