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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life the average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Well we're back for part two of my chat. We've

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Speaker 1: retired Detective Senior Sergeant Glenn Potter from WA Police.

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Speaker 2: If you listen to part.

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Speaker 1: One, you would have heard Glenn give us a fascinating

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Speaker 1: insight into the investigation and capture of Australia's ma wanted

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Speaker 1: escapee Brendan Abbot. In part two, we spoke about the

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Speaker 1: investigation into the suspected murder of Wayne Drewitt, who's involved

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Speaker 1: in an international diamond scam which took unbelievable twists and turns.

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Speaker 1: He also told us about a lunatic arm robber who'd

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Speaker 1: liked to play Russian Roulette with himself in a loaded

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Speaker 1: firearm after he robbed Banks, and Glenn's involvement as a

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Speaker 1: negotiater in Australia's longest running hostage situation. This is what

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Speaker 1: I love about talking to real cops. They've got stories

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Speaker 1: that you just can't make up. Glenn Potter, Welcome back

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Speaker 1: to part two of Eye Catch Killers.

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Speaker 3: Only, Part two only, Part two.

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Speaker 1: Well, we got lost in the Brendan abb Abbot story.

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Speaker 1: One thing I just want to jump straight into because

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Speaker 1: you were telling me the other day when we're having

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Speaker 1: a chat a armed robber that had a propensity for

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Speaker 1: playing Russian Roulette and how that story ended. Can you

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Speaker 1: just tell the listener what that was about and what happened.

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Speaker 3: Well, it actually came out of your state, out of

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Speaker 3: your stack.

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Speaker 2: Blame you South.

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Speaker 3: So I got a phone call. I just picked up

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Speaker 3: the phone. I think it was one afternoon midweek, and

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Speaker 3: there's a detective said, look, we've got a we've got

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Speaker 3: a fellow here who's wanted. We suspect strongly has committed

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Speaker 3: a murder of a fella and place the body in

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Speaker 3: a barrel bod. He's been located, but we believe he's

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Speaker 3: moved to w a and living under a false name,

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Speaker 3: and gave us the false name. Details shouted like a

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Speaker 3: great story. Let's get onto it, they said. They told

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Speaker 3: me that he was a what we call a stick

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Speaker 3: up merchant. He'd like to do armored cars. He would

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Speaker 3: he would confront the cross pavement when they would bring

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Speaker 3: the money into the bank. He'd stand there wearing a

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Speaker 3: you know, hanging around in a singlet and shorts, bongs,

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Speaker 3: carrying a plastic bag. In the plastic bag a shopping

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Speaker 3: bag would be a gun. So he'd go up to him,

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Speaker 3: say pull the gun out, give us your guns, give

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Speaker 3: us your your money, and off he go, you know,

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Speaker 3: like John SPITERI flip blopping down the road out of

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Speaker 3: getting square.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Love that.

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Speaker 3: Love that why I viewed the guy. I thought, oh

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Speaker 3: this is interesting. So within I reckon a couple of hours,

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Speaker 3: we identified where he was staying. We just rang every

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Speaker 3: real estate agent we could think of, and one of

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Speaker 3: them came out, yeah, we've got him as a client

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Speaker 3: living within in a complex that I used to live in.

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Speaker 3: And yeah, so there was a place called tram Beyond

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Speaker 3: swe in Maylands, which is just a very close area

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Speaker 3: of Perth and actually very close to where our then

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Speaker 3: police academy was. So so we started to get the

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Speaker 3: job together. We found out that he purchased a vehicle

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Speaker 3: and so we set up surveillance and we ran surveillance

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Speaker 3: for about oh god, I would have been three weeks

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Speaker 3: on the sky and I never seen anyone so systematic

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Speaker 3: and methodical about during reconnaissance on targets doing counter surveillance.

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Speaker 3: It made out surveillance guys' jobs extremely hard. We had

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Speaker 3: both surveillance vehicles, surveillance on foot, surveillance in the air.

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Speaker 3: It was regarded as a high risk job. We'd also

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Speaker 3: managed to put a tracker on the car and so

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Speaker 3: this was going on every day for hours upon hours

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Speaker 3: upon ours. They've just counter surveillance reconnaissance and we'd identified

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Speaker 3: a number of targets he'd paid them. He'd even put

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Speaker 3: a wig on it on stage and a hat and

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Speaker 3: gone and sussed out a bank. So we'd identified a

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Speaker 3: number of targets he'd moved it'd gone every day every

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Speaker 3: day for three weeks. Then one day didn't appear. I thought,

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Speaker 3: I he's having a rest day, So we just kept surveillance.

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Speaker 3: On next day, still no appearance, and all of a sudden,

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Speaker 3: the police vehicle turns up. Mark police vehicle, They go inside,

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Speaker 3: they come out. Obviously more vehicles turn up. We thought,

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Speaker 3: oh god, what's happened here, And then we saw major

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Speaker 3: crime had turned up. So we presented ourselves and said, look,

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Speaker 3: this is what we're working on. And when we went

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Speaker 3: into the flat, there he is. He's sitting in front

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Speaker 3: of a TV. The TV is just running on static.

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Speaker 3: Now he's sitting there, his hands, he's got a gun

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Speaker 3: in this hand, that hands on top like that on

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Speaker 3: a lap, and there's a great big hole in his head.

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Speaker 3: And everybody thought this was a murder made to look

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Speaker 3: like a suicide because one hand was like that and

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Speaker 3: the gun was underneath. But the pathologist told us very

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Speaker 3: quickly that, you know, a traumatic injury like that, hands

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Speaker 3: are going to go up like that and then they're

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Speaker 3: going to come down. And there was nothing else to

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Speaker 3: indicate that. You know, we had some arms in the place,

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Speaker 3: so no one had got in there. The only suspects,

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Speaker 3: apparently were us. It was guarded as a death in custody.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I could imagine that would.

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Speaker 3: Play so so yeah, so and then we are digging

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Speaker 3: around and well, so one of the aforments said that,

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Speaker 3: you know, before he did a job, he played Russian

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Speaker 3: Roulette and there was only one round in the chamber,

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Speaker 3: so you know, yeah, he was definitely playing Russian Roulette.

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Speaker 1: For those that don't understand what we're talking about. With

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Speaker 1: Russian roulette, I think it's pretty pretty well known. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: content warning, don't try this at home. But putting a

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Speaker 1: one round in the revolver and spinning the revolver and

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Speaker 1: putting the putting the gun to your head and so

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Speaker 1: it sounds like he was a risk taker or whatever

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Speaker 1: was going on.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, obviously there's something going on there. This is either

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Speaker 3: meant to happen or not. Am I going to be

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Speaker 3: lucky on the job? He wasn't lucky, But it was

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Speaker 3: definitely Russian Rolette. It was only one round in the chamber.

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Speaker 1: These are the type of bizarre things you come across

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Speaker 1: in the place. Isn't it like it's dangerous to make

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Speaker 1: assumptions because there's so many times you see it, and

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Speaker 1: factually it plays out that things take twists and turns.

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Speaker 3: Well, in a half hour we spoke, and a couple

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Speaker 3: of times we spoke before, just job after job just

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Speaker 3: reappears in my memory. I mean that's thirty years ago,

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Speaker 3: you know. And so these are happening all the time,

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Speaker 3: These these weird, crazy type of jobs where people would

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Speaker 3: think only would happen on TV. They happened to us

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Speaker 3: every day, and we put them in the memory bank.

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Speaker 3: We file them away and never think about them until

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Speaker 3: something sparks and things, you know. And so I mean,

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Speaker 3: just talking to you, I can just think of a

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Speaker 3: job after job, and I'm sure you can do the same.

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Speaker 3: We should do a podcast with you.

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Speaker 1: Well, you talk about interpreting the crime soon. I remember

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Speaker 1: it was a Friday afternoon, called to Woollongong for what

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Speaker 1: had been called the murder izing on call homicide team

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Speaker 1: go down there, go into the house as a naked man,

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Speaker 1: blood splattered all around the walls, finger marks, drags, and

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Speaker 1: he's got a cord wrapped around his neck that was

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Speaker 1: an old plugging landline. He's still had a landline at

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Speaker 1: his place for all intents and purposes. This is a

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Speaker 1: murder investigation, and so we set it up as a

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Speaker 1: murder investigation, crime scene and canvassing and everything that you

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Speaker 1: need to do. And as that investigation played out following

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Speaker 1: the post, more than he had a ruptured aorta and

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Speaker 1: the blood was him. He was trying to phone Triple

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Speaker 1: O to get urgent help. He was in that much pain.

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Speaker 1: He was wrapping the cord around his neck, twisting around,

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Speaker 1: just rolling around in pain. And the pattern blood marks

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Speaker 1: of hands being dragged along the wall was him coughing

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Speaker 1: up blood on his hands and falling down the wall.

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Speaker 1: Now you look at that scene and it was a

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Speaker 1: horror scene. First, sure that there's been a struggle here,

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Speaker 1: there's a murder happened, and then when it's all dissected,

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Speaker 1: when you look at it clinically on the facts that

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Speaker 1: are presented, you see that it's not so. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think every cop carries these type of these type of stories.

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Speaker 1: Another investigation that you were heavily involved in. And I

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Speaker 1: had a bit of a look at the there's a

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Speaker 1: couple of art or quite a bit written on it,

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Speaker 1: the disappearance and suspected murder of Wayne Drew, and I

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Speaker 1: was having a look at the coroner's findings that you

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Speaker 1: sent down or sent over to me. Do you want

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Speaker 1: to explain that investigation, your involvement and what happened, because

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Speaker 1: again that was something that was slightly unusual, but quite

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Speaker 1: an interesting case.

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Speaker 3: This is a murder mystery. Yeah, even midsummer murders couldn't

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Speaker 3: couldn't repeat this one. So I was running the East

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Speaker 3: Metropolitan District Detectives, which is Midland and the eastern suburbs

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Speaker 3: of w A. It was a big area. I had

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Speaker 3: about seventy staff, not just detectives, but you know family violence, intelligence,

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Speaker 3: forensic and so on. And I gone in one morning

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Speaker 3: and the uniform guys came up from downstairs and said, look, Boss,

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Speaker 3: we've been given this missing person has come over from

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Speaker 3: mirror booker. Do you want to have a look at it.

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Speaker 3: So I had a look at it. And the initial

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Speaker 3: information was that this fella called Wayne Drewett, who was

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Speaker 3: an ext serviceman, had vanished to two weeks before and

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Speaker 3: there it's been a delay in reporting him because he

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Speaker 3: was undertaking some diamond deal with an unknown person called

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Speaker 3: the facilitator, and that now they wanted to report him.

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Speaker 3: And there was all these people who had invested large

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Speaker 3: amount of money and now we're looking like losing it

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Speaker 3: and the alarm bells are ringing straight away, just you know.

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Speaker 3: So we went to the first place we went to

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Speaker 3: was actually one of the main investors and got talking

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Speaker 3: to them and found out the essence of that They

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Speaker 3: were willing to tell us about the deal, and a

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Speaker 3: summary of the deal would be that Wayne Drewitt was

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Speaker 3: a bit of an entrepreneur, a bit of a Walter Mitty.

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Speaker 3: Nice guy, but always you know, I've got this going on,

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Speaker 3: got this going on, and so on. He was in

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Speaker 3: his late fifties, he'd retired from the army. He was

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Speaker 3: a retired warrant officer. He was a clerical guy at

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Speaker 3: the SAS and was well liked by a lot of people.

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Speaker 3: So he approached all these investors with this deal, deal

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Speaker 3: of a lifetime where diamonds would be imported into the

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Speaker 3: country and there would be a five to six times

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Speaker 3: profit on people's investment. He had to raise Ultimately, the

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Speaker 3: figure kept going up, but ultimately had to raise a

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Speaker 3: million dollars cash. Now, in the nineties, I sorry, the

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Speaker 3: early two thousands, a million dollars was a lot of money.

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Speaker 3: Yeah and so, and it was being done through a

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Speaker 3: guy who was called the Facilitator. No one knew his identity.

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Speaker 3: He wanted to keep his identity secret for whatever reasons,

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Speaker 3: and that these diamonds would be brought in, they would

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Speaker 3: be resold. He would take the million dollars and everybody

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Speaker 3: would get, you know, five to six times their cash

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Speaker 3: me out an offer too good to be true, and

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Speaker 3: yet it was probably too good to be true, people

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Speaker 3: still go for it. Well, look, there were about fifteen investors.

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Speaker 3: Some had put in like one hundred and fifty thousand,

219
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Speaker 3: ten thousand, forty thousand, and each of them was an

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Speaker 3: individual character who had if you were doing a murder mystery,

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Speaker 3: mystery an Agatha Christie would sit him around the lounge

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Speaker 3: room and eventually one would cough to the murder. So

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Speaker 3: we did a lot of digging, and what we found

224
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Speaker 3: we had. The only contact we had with the facilitator

225
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Speaker 3: was a mobile phone. So there were two mobile phones.

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Speaker 3: They were Burner phones. One was in the name of

227
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Speaker 3: Jay Love and the other one was in the name

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Speaker 3: of Conti Drew. It had one and the facilitator of

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Speaker 3: the other. And this is how the deal was supposed

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Speaker 3: to be done and backtracking a bit, so Wayne and

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Speaker 3: his wife. His wife was kept in the dark about it,

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Speaker 3: and I think like most wives, when husbands had this

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Speaker 3: great idea, they just roll their eyes and go, okay, well,

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Speaker 3: you know, just don't lose the house over it. So

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Speaker 3: he'd been booking into hotels at the time this deal

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Speaker 3: was happening, and he'd got his wife from the hotel,

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Speaker 3: and essentially that was to keep her away from the deal.

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Speaker 3: So they were booked in the Rendezvous hotel and then

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Speaker 3: he went back to his own house to do the deal.

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Speaker 3: And then he said it would take a couple of days.

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Speaker 3: He might be gone for twenty four hours, but don't

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Speaker 3: worry everything, it'd be fine. And this is the same

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Speaker 3: thing he had told the investors. So after forty eight

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Speaker 3: hours he hadn't appeared. The wife had returned home and

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Speaker 3: found that the house that way office was still locked,

246
00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:05,320
Speaker 3: that there were dishes left on the sink, and Wayne

247
00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:10,360
Speaker 3: was apparently very fastidious and would put everything away. That

248
00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:16,240
Speaker 3: the turntable that he'd loved was still running, which was

249
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Speaker 3: unusual and the only and he was known to just

250
00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:22,680
Speaker 3: wear pajamas around home, that's all he wore, and that's

251
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Speaker 3: the only items of clothing were missing, and his car

252
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Speaker 3: was missing. And that went on for two weeks and

253
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Speaker 3: no one cheap, and all the investors kept going back

254
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Speaker 3: to and saying she wanted to go to the police.

255
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Speaker 3: You're ruined the diamond deal. Don't go back to the police.

256
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Speaker 3: Don't the deal's going to happen. They've got a vested interests,

257
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Speaker 3: they've got all this money they foolishly tied up in it.

258
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Speaker 3: They didn't want anything to happen. So the day we

259
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Speaker 3: were told about this, we put it out on the

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Speaker 3: media and we put out that his car was missing.

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Speaker 3: The car was found that night just outside the surveillance

262
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Speaker 3: area of the Perth Airport, parked on the side of

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Speaker 3: the road. He made to look like he's gone, he's

264
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Speaker 3: gone with the money, He's got his briefcase in his

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Speaker 3: pajamas and off he's gone. We didn't obviously buy that,

266
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Speaker 3: so we kept digging around. Once we got the report,

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Speaker 3: we started interviewing people. We found out about these two phones.

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Speaker 3: We still didn't know the identity of the facilitator. We

269
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Speaker 3: did know from one of them that there was a

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Speaker 3: large safe deposit box at the Banquest Tower in Perth

271
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Speaker 3: in their under around area, which was when his last

272
00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:33,880
Speaker 3: scene was stacked with money. Obviously, we went to have

273
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Speaker 3: a look at that. There was no money in it.

274
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Speaker 3: We also found that the person who shows that one

275
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Speaker 3: had a key to it, so he's suddenly becoming prime suspect.

276
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Speaker 3: He denied any involved in it, and we'd also found

277
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Speaker 3: out that he'd also taken out another safe deposit box

278
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Speaker 3: near it, understandably, so yeah, we were seriously looking at him.

279
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Speaker 3: We were going through the phone records, and the phone

280
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Speaker 3: records were just between the two mobile phones except for

281
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Speaker 3: one nineteen second phone call to a house and I

282
00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:12,680
Speaker 3: meant the larm bells ringing, someone's cocked up here, someone's

283
00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:15,400
Speaker 3: broken the procedure and run the house by the accident,

284
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Speaker 3: regretted it hung up, So we did a check on

285
00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:21,640
Speaker 3: the house and we came up with a guide by

286
00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:25,800
Speaker 3: the name of Nicholas Stewart who lived there. So we

287
00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:31,120
Speaker 3: got warrants and we raided the house, and we came

288
00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:34,040
Speaker 3: across a woman who claimed to be the wife of

289
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Speaker 3: Nicholas Stewart. She was a Romanian national as he was.

290
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Speaker 3: His real name was Nikolai Stowin, a Stoian, so we

291
00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:46,080
Speaker 3: kept searching the house and I remember looking on the

292
00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:48,840
Speaker 3: concrete the garad's floor. I thought, this doesn't look right.

293
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Speaker 3: This looks freshly laid. There was no trap door or anything,

294
00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:54,960
Speaker 3: but this looked freshly laid. So we got ground penetrating

295
00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:57,080
Speaker 3: radar in their thinking, we're going to find a body

296
00:16:57,160 --> 00:16:59,760
Speaker 3: under here, and sure enough there was a cavity under

297
00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:03,520
Speaker 3: that or so out come the jack hammers, jacking away,

298
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Speaker 3: think we're going to find a body. We break through

299
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Speaker 3: and we find an underground bunker. And in this bunker

300
00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:16,520
Speaker 3: were a stash of guns, silences, pistols, garrots, books on

301
00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:20,119
Speaker 3: how to dispose of bodies, books on how to carry

302
00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:23,439
Speaker 3: out hijackings of aircraft, all sorts of stuff. It was

303
00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:24,160
Speaker 3: a treasure track.

304
00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:28,879
Speaker 1: And was that just sealed in the sealed in if

305
00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:31,760
Speaker 1: I needed it, that's where no one's going to find it. Yeah,

306
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Speaker 1: well that was a good, good pickup.

307
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Speaker 3: And the wife had told us that Nick had recently

308
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Speaker 3: flown to Romania because his mother was sick. HM, so

309
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Speaker 3: obviously we're trying to get in contact with the remaining authorities.

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Speaker 3: Remaining authorities that kind of yeah, yeah, do you really

311
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Speaker 3: want to know him? And so on, and didn't get anywhere,

312
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Speaker 3: And then we did a lot of media on it,

313
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Speaker 3: and we found a photograph of Nicholas Stewart in a

314
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Speaker 3: in a Chacuzi toasting him with a glass, looking very

315
00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:07,960
Speaker 3: happy and confident, and the media loved that. So we

316
00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:09,879
Speaker 3: told him what we knew at the time, which was

317
00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:13,200
Speaker 3: he was believed to be a Romanian national, that he'd

318
00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:16,520
Speaker 3: had experience in special forces, possibly a member of the

319
00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:20,359
Speaker 3: Foreign Legion, which we'd been told. So we juiced it

320
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Speaker 3: up a bit to get the interest. Snippets came back.

321
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Speaker 3: Various people came forward and said, oh, we know him

322
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Speaker 3: through you know, he sold his car through a dealer.

323
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Speaker 3: The car had been detailed twice. There was nothing in

324
00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:35,200
Speaker 3: that that. He sold all his tools from a brick

325
00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:37,800
Speaker 3: paving business. We learned more about next year, and he'd

326
00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:41,119
Speaker 3: been in prison for shooting a neighbor who was pissing

327
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Speaker 3: him off, so you know, he was a pretty bad guy.

328
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Speaker 1: Well, and what you found in the place is, yeah,

329
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Speaker 1: I don't want to tell you how to do your job, Glenn,

330
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Speaker 1: but a bit of an indicator he might be onto

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Speaker 1: something there.

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Speaker 3: It is, yes, And of course, if you've ever dealt Romanians,

333
00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:01,639
Speaker 3: especially who operate in the criminal world. They are hard,

334
00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:06,200
Speaker 3: you know. And it'd been a body card at something

335
00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:09,639
Speaker 3: like some stage to the former ruler of Romania at Chichescu,

336
00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:12,960
Speaker 3: so you know, and those people had done things for

337
00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:17,360
Speaker 3: chi qestew that you wouldn't want to talk about. So

338
00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:22,280
Speaker 3: then we get contact from the remaining authorities saying we

339
00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:27,240
Speaker 3: want mister Stewart because he's done. Oh by the way,

340
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:29,800
Speaker 3: before we got to that, we'd also found that they

341
00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:33,159
Speaker 3: bought of tickets to fly to Romania with the return

342
00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:37,760
Speaker 3: ticket not long after the disappearance. And he'd also been

343
00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:39,440
Speaker 3: trying to take large amounts of money out of the

344
00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:42,320
Speaker 3: country and actually tried to fix send some money out

345
00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:45,119
Speaker 3: of the country which got picked up like sixty thousand

346
00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:47,239
Speaker 3: dollars in a cardboard box, so we had to go

347
00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:49,560
Speaker 3: back and pick it up. So we knew the cash

348
00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:52,560
Speaker 3: was flying around. So I get this call from the

349
00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:57,199
Speaker 3: remaining authorities and they say we want him because about

350
00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:01,080
Speaker 3: four years earlier, maybe five years early, he's a prime

351
00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:05,160
Speaker 3: suspect for the murder of a guy who was getting

352
00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:10,840
Speaker 3: cash together for a diamond deal. Oh that what a gift.

353
00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:14,680
Speaker 3: But we're not going to extradite him because we don't extradite,

354
00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:17,439
Speaker 3: but you can come here and try him for his

355
00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:21,800
Speaker 3: crimes DPP. We're going to have that. They're not going

356
00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:24,080
Speaker 3: to go to an Eastern European country. At the time

357
00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:28,159
Speaker 3: that was trying to get entry into the EU to

358
00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:35,040
Speaker 3: try him over there on their things, Extradition was becoming

359
00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:38,680
Speaker 3: a problem. At the same time with all this going on,

360
00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:41,600
Speaker 3: Major Crime was still telling us he's just a missing

361
00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:44,040
Speaker 3: person who's taken off with the money. Because they had

362
00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:47,200
Speaker 3: competing things. It was still that was still a possibility

363
00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,960
Speaker 3: they were in cohoots. But you need more than a

364
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:54,600
Speaker 3: million dollars even then to not have cut all contact

365
00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:57,160
Speaker 3: with your family, not use your credit cards. By the way,

366
00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:01,200
Speaker 3: Wayne had a heart condition that he needed daily medicine.

367
00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:04,600
Speaker 3: We went back in some stage we'd gotten into his

368
00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:07,280
Speaker 3: office and we'd found that Wayne's office and we found

369
00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:09,919
Speaker 3: the hard driver being ripped from his computer and all

370
00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:14,119
Speaker 3: his medications were there. So that was another indicator. So

371
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,040
Speaker 3: we were kind of stumped, what are we going to

372
00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:20,000
Speaker 3: do now we'd interview all the witnesses. We pretty well

373
00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:24,000
Speaker 3: ruled out other people because we'd found out that Stuart

374
00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:28,160
Speaker 3: had opened it safe deposit box immediately below the one

375
00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:32,160
Speaker 3: that had the cash and had accessed it the day

376
00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:36,400
Speaker 3: that drew it disappeared, so obviously cash had been put

377
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:38,640
Speaker 3: into the other one, then into a bag, and off

378
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:45,760
Speaker 3: he goes. So we're stymy and at a guess.

379
00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:50,560
Speaker 1: I would imagine from above levels above yourself in the force,

380
00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:52,479
Speaker 1: there wouldn't be a great deal of interest in it.

381
00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:53,280
Speaker 2: This.

382
00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:57,120
Speaker 1: These guys had stopped following up this case. We don't

383
00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:00,040
Speaker 1: need it, we don't.

384
00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:04,320
Speaker 3: Well, I here's a funny story. I then went. I

385
00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:06,439
Speaker 3: was told I had to go and do a PowerPoint

386
00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:10,359
Speaker 3: eight PowerPoint, but a PowerPoint presentation to the Deputy commissioner

387
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,200
Speaker 3: because all this, you know, this controversy and money being

388
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:16,960
Speaker 3: spent and so on. I realized I was on a

389
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,440
Speaker 3: no winner when he fell asleep halfway through the PowerPoint

390
00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:23,879
Speaker 3: and just kept asking questions, well, why, why, why are

391
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:25,960
Speaker 3: you doing that? Why are we chasing this? I just

392
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:30,080
Speaker 3: thought I'm going a loser here. Give up while you can, Glenn.

393
00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:32,800
Speaker 2: You say I might trigger stuff You've just triggered.

394
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:37,080
Speaker 1: I think so many times I've done those PowerPoint presentations.

395
00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:39,919
Speaker 1: Please explain why we're doing this, and just yeah, you

396
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:42,879
Speaker 1: just get these negative questions the whole time.

397
00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:44,040
Speaker 3: So it was awful.

398
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:46,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know what, I know what you're talking about.

399
00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:49,400
Speaker 1: I think most working police have been in that situation,

400
00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:52,000
Speaker 1: trying to keep a job running that you know, needs

401
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:53,160
Speaker 1: to keep going.

402
00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:57,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's not going. So I decided I'd try

403
00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:01,000
Speaker 3: another tat and through my me year contacts, so I

404
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:05,080
Speaker 3: contacted Stephen Rice, a producer. Out of sixty minutes, I

405
00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:08,520
Speaker 3: told him the story. He said, this is great Wigan,

406
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:10,480
Speaker 3: And I said, if I could get some media interest

407
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:13,560
Speaker 3: over and get sixty minutes to do a story, then

408
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:19,600
Speaker 3: who knows. So from memory, I think a crew went

409
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:25,560
Speaker 3: over to Romania and then got quickly turned around and

410
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:29,240
Speaker 3: sent home. And then not long after that, I was

411
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:33,199
Speaker 3: actually at the National Finals radio in turn work and

412
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:36,600
Speaker 3: I was just doing some practice or whatever before the

413
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,080
Speaker 3: radio and I got a phone call and it was Thrue,

414
00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:42,600
Speaker 3: an interpreter from the National of the book Arrest Criminal

415
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:47,720
Speaker 3: Investigation Division head, and essentially the phone call was, do

416
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:50,639
Speaker 3: not send media over here. We don't like the media.

417
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 3: If they come over again, they won't be leaving. And

418
00:23:53,560 --> 00:24:00,960
Speaker 3: by the way, don't you come either, okay if you

419
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,240
Speaker 3: say so. So that was that was a very.

420
00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:07,520
Speaker 2: Bit of a warning coming down there.

421
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:11,200
Speaker 3: I passed that information on and then I eventually spoke

422
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,320
Speaker 3: to I think it was a UK de Assistant commissioner

423
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:17,199
Speaker 3: who was a liaison officer for the Romanian authorities in

424
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:22,399
Speaker 3: there building up their law enforcement for arrival into the EU,

425
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,360
Speaker 3: and I told him the story. He said, you have

426
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,920
Speaker 3: to understand that a million dollars, which is about seven

427
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 3: hundred thousand US, a top level engineer in Romania at

428
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 3: the moment earns about one hundred dollars a month. Okay,

429
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 3: Romania with what you've got, what the money he's got,

430
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:46,480
Speaker 3: he could pay anyone and everything off. And he look,

431
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:49,359
Speaker 3: he said, at that time it was so corrupt. He said,

432
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:50,640
Speaker 3: don't go, just don't go.

433
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:52,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, makes sense.

434
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 3: So the last thing I did was it kind of

435
00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:59,960
Speaker 3: died there. I wrapped it all up, sent it off

436
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:05,440
Speaker 3: major crime, and then of course the coroner. Eventually the

437
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,159
Speaker 3: family kept pushing for a coroner's hearing because no one

438
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 3: was going to the decree he was dead, which means the

439
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,960
Speaker 3: wife wasn't getting her benefits from the army and there

440
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 3: was a terrible situation for the family and they didn't

441
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,119
Speaker 3: have any closure on it. So I got told I

442
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:20,919
Speaker 3: had to do as a coroner's report. By this day

443
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:25,439
Speaker 3: John running the mounted section. So off I go to

444
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 3: the major crime sitting there, go through the boxes and

445
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,200
Speaker 3: boxes of stuff. Fortunately I had a couple of good

446
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,119
Speaker 3: detectives and they who'd worked with me previously, and we

447
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,840
Speaker 3: went through and we did the coroner's report that then

448
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,960
Speaker 3: got coroner's hearing. We went to the criner's hearing. The

449
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,679
Speaker 3: outcome was that was yes, this was a murder, that

450
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 3: Stuart was the murderer because, and this is an important

451
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 3: detail I may have skimmed over at the time that

452
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,920
Speaker 3: he left to fly out of the country. He went

453
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:57,160
Speaker 3: to an address in Kubla, which is really south of Perth,

454
00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:01,400
Speaker 3: a long way from the airport, and dropped some gear off,

455
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 3: then vanished for eight hours, then came back. That was

456
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:10,920
Speaker 3: the day after drew it to God missing. His excuse

457
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 3: to the person who we eventually interviewed, is that his

458
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 3: house in Ballajura, which is ten minutes from the airport,

459
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:20,960
Speaker 3: was too far away, and that Kubla, which was an

460
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:25,120
Speaker 3: hour away from the airport, was closer. I suspected Trio

461
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 3: strongly that he's got the body in the boot of

462
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:30,880
Speaker 3: the car he's driven for eight four between maybe four

463
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 3: hours somewhere and dump the body and once you get out,

464
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 3: you go east, you get out in those areas and

465
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 3: nothing you get out in the Goldfields charts of finding

466
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 3: a body. Yeah, and bodies don't last long out there.

467
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 3: And the rumor about pigs eating bodies is absolutely true.

468
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 3: So that was that window we think the body was

469
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 3: disposed of. So Coran said, yes, this is a homicide,

470
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 3: Yes there is significant circumstantial evidence to implicate Nick Stewart,

471
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 3: and that it should go to the DPP for them

472
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,719
Speaker 3: to consider indictment. Went to the DPP. They looked at

473
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 3: it and said, there is no reasonable prospects of are

474
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 3: you getting him out of the country because he's extradized there.

475
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:20,640
Speaker 3: If he comes back to Australia, we'll look at it them.

476
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:23,640
Speaker 1: It's frustrating, but I think the fact that you got

477
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:27,960
Speaker 1: it to the inquest, and I'm looking at the coroner's conclusions,

478
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:32,119
Speaker 1: the things that she said. For those reasons, I've concluded

479
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 1: that mister Stewart contributed to the death of mister Druet.

480
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:39,360
Speaker 1: So at least it gives a family some the closure

481
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 1: is not the right word, but some answers to what's

482
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 1: gone on that's been presented. It's frustrating as it is,

483
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 1: but yeah, the twists and turns. I've used that ground

484
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:54,880
Speaker 1: searching radar for cavities under concrete slabs and all that.

485
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,680
Speaker 1: We didn't find anything, and I've I've always wondered how

486
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 1: well they worked. Did it come up when you were

487
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 1: searching that showed the.

488
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,159
Speaker 3: Void down to the millimeter inside it?

489
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 2: Yeah?

490
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,160
Speaker 3: Sorry, it does work, but this was a void as

491
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 3: opposed to a body buried. So what the radar does

492
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:17,919
Speaker 3: is it gives you indications of density and so you know,

493
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:19,480
Speaker 3: the guys who do it know how to read whether

494
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 3: there's a body married.

495
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 1: At the time I used it, it was a tactical

496
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 1: thing in the middle of the night, in the middle

497
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 1: of the bush, creeping in and using it, and we

498
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,199
Speaker 1: didn't get the reads that we'd hope for. But that

499
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 1: something you know, how you have things that just niggle

500
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 1: in the back of your mind, wondering if there is

501
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 1: that cavity in that place at place that we searched

502
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 1: that we didn't pick up on negotiating, Yes, you told

503
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 1: me snippets of it. I didn't get the full details.

504
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 1: But with negotiating the one that was reference that there's

505
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 1: probably Australia's longest hostage negotiation. Tell us through that I

506
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 1: can't do justice even describing what how.

507
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 2: It played out. Tell us what happened there and what

508
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 2: your role in it was.

509
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 3: Well, I was a negotiator and on call at the time.

510
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 3: I was working in arm robbery and I'd gotten home

511
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 3: that night and I got a phone call saying, oh,

512
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 3: pager went on found out. They said, we've got the

513
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 3: situation at the Shengin Park Rehabilitation Hospital. We've got a

514
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 3: woman who's been held hostage by a guy for her

515
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 3: ex boyfriend, and that it's she's a critical patient in

516
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 3: that she's in a halo and somehow he's endangered alife.

517
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 3: So my offside and I Andrew Martin.

518
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 1: Sorry, Glenn, I just interrupt there because that when we're

519
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 1: talking the halo, we're talking where the next.

520
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 3: Secured bolted into the skull.

521
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 1: Into the skull to support obviously something wrong with the

522
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 1: spine or the neck.

523
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 3: She'd had a car accident yep, and she'd have broken

524
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 3: her neck and so they had to stabilize the neck.

525
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 3: And it was such a mess that if the neck

526
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:06,960
Speaker 3: had been manipulated. It could kill her, right, So we

527
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 3: had been given limited information. So in our normal ways

528
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 3: of doing things, we attended the hospital. We got a

529
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 3: brief from the coppers who were there at the time.

530
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 3: The tactical response group turned up and so Andrew and

531
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 3: I formed a strategy and what we were going to

532
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 3: do is we're going to take the first ship to

533
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 3: twelve hours, which ended up being fourteen hours to debrief

534
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 3: the day shift had come in. We never expected to

535
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 3: go very long. But what confronted us when we were

536
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 3: in the room was something we yeah, you just you

537
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 3: couldn't make up. So here we have a guy who

538
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 3: shaped every hair and his body off. He was I

539
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 3: think he was a Serbian fella in his mid to

540
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 3: late twenties, had been a drug user, looked really fit, sinewy,

541
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 3: but had been diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. He'd been the

542
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 3: ex boyfriend of the skirt and they had broken up,

543
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 3: so he'd ha turned up at the hospital wanting to

544
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 3: visit her. Security guards you know, looking at him and

545
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 3: go what the She didn't want it to see him,

546
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 3: but he'd gone in there, started talking to her and

547
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 3: then took off his jumper tied it around through a

548
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 3: halo and tightly around his waist. So he's standing at

549
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 3: the top of the bed like that and it's tied

550
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 3: round his waist and any movement of that could have

551
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 3: killed her. So we get the brief from the surgeons

552
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 3: and said, look, this is really bad. This could kill her.

553
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 3: Her neck is that unstable. She was quite a wild

554
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 3: cat and was verbally being very angry with him and

555
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 3: screaming at him and telling him to get out and

556
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 3: calling him names. He was going through a schizophrenic episode

557
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 3: that was slowly building so open that we went into

558
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 3: the room Andy Kite. So it's just a single room

559
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 3: by themselves, and we're not far away from him, but

560
00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 3: I think we had one chair was sitting on and

561
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 3: the other one would be standing and we'd take turns

562
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 3: outside the door. We had the the what do we

563
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 3: call the Emergency Action Team, the EA team, and they

564
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 3: were outside and ready tummin and pouch if the opportunity

565
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 3: came up. So my initial thinking, well, he's not going

566
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 3: to last this long, you know, we're probably going to

567
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 3: have to physically take him out, but we'll try talking

568
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 3: to him. So we started the negotiations and these negotiations

569
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 3: were intense, and through that first twelve hour shift, he'd

570
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 3: taken all his clothes off. He was she was abusing him,

571
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 3: she was abusing ours for not doing anything trying to

572
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 3: negotiate what someone who's steadily increasing a schizophrenic episode. We'd

573
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 3: managed to get him some water, but he didn't want food.

574
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 3: We're probably by this stage ten hours into it, and

575
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 3: that all.

576
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 2: The time he's got the jumper tied to the halo.

577
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 3: Type and he's standing next to her. So ten hours

578
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 3: into it, we're starting to you know, we know we've

579
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 3: got to keep talking. We've got him talking, but his

580
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 3: behavior is becoming more bizarre. He's thinking he's Jesus. He

581
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 3: started clicking feces as he'd wipe his eyes and flicked

582
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 3: at us and this type of thing. So it was

583
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 3: getting very unpleasant. The whole time, we're just trying to

584
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 3: keep it calm, keep it calm, keep calm. By this stage,

585
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 3: a whole group of supporter come in, psychiatrists, psychologists and

586
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 3: so on. So there now on this when we're becoming

587
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 3: a more organized team. We've got a negotiation coordinator who's

588
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 3: dealing with the tactical coordinator who's dealing with us, and

589
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 3: we're getting all this advice. So we then go into

590
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 3: the next So, okay, next shift comes in, we come out.

591
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 3: They go through the day, going through exactly the same.

592
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 3: He's still standing there, still naked, We're still talking, he's

593
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,960
Speaker 3: not eating, she's getting angry then calming down and so on.

594
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:58,960
Speaker 3: So we couldn't believe it when we're told we're coming

595
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 3: back in. So we come in back for the next shift.

596
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 3: That was another night shift, and we went through the

597
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:10,360
Speaker 3: whole box and dice again for fourteen hours. Negotiation was

598
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:13,879
Speaker 3: getting us somewhere. We were talking to him, but we

599
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 3: were getting a lot of interference from the psychiatrists who

600
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,279
Speaker 3: kept dragging us out, one of us out talking to us.

601
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 3: And at the end of it, I think twelve hours,

602
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 3: the psychiatrist called me out and said, you're completely fucking

603
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 3: this up. This is bad. I mean, my morale just

604
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,839
Speaker 3: went and I did. I had what I'm doing, I

605
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 3: think any specifics of what I was doing, but I

606
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,080
Speaker 3: was being too assertive or not an up assertive or

607
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 3: whatever to find with yeah, you know, and I'm just

608
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 3: thinking I'd like to see you in there. But anyway,

609
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,879
Speaker 3: they said, we're replacing you we're bringing a woman in

610
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:54,800
Speaker 3: on the team, and I said, no offense. He clearly

611
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:59,360
Speaker 3: has no respect for women whatsoever. I know your female negotiator.

612
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,400
Speaker 3: She is very, very good. But it's not going to work.

613
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:04,799
Speaker 3: It is not going to work, and it's going to

614
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:09,320
Speaker 3: go badly now. Absolutely, we're doing this way. You go home.

615
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 3: We won't see you again. Just go back to what

616
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 3: you're normally doing. You fucked this up. So I dragged

617
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,880
Speaker 3: myself out of there, got in the car, went home.

618
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:23,320
Speaker 3: I think I had a couple of beers. This was

619
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 3: around about five in the morning. Well, I'm going to

620
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 3: try and get some sleep. At about ten o'clock that morning,

621
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,359
Speaker 3: I get a phone call, get yourself back in here.

622
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 3: It's not worked. It's really gone to ship. Yeah, berh.

623
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 3: But I'm still feeling, like, you know, I'm feeling pretty

624
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 3: bad about this. Andrew and I went back in there,

625
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 3: but we spoke before we were again. I said, we

626
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:49,840
Speaker 3: can't go This can't go on much longer. We're getting

627
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 3: forty hours or forty five hours we've been going whatever.

628
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:54,960
Speaker 3: It is crazy to him, I said, we've got out

629
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:57,320
Speaker 3: a plan. The plan is not going to be negotiation.

630
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 3: Is we might get into something, but we're not going

631
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,360
Speaker 3: to get him. So our plan was but I would

632
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:09,440
Speaker 3: because I was had a reasonably good rapport with her,

633
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:14,279
Speaker 3: and I would play if we made a move, I

634
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 3: would place myself over the top of her, unfold her

635
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 3: body and keep the halo protected, while Andy would just

636
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 3: going there and King hit him as hard as he

637
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:26,839
Speaker 3: could to drop him, giving time for the reaction team

638
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 3: to go in there. We didn't tell anybody else's plan

639
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:31,640
Speaker 3: because we knew what the reaction was going to be

640
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 3: and if we talked him out of it, great. So

641
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,320
Speaker 3: we're in there. We're going for about five or six hours.

642
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 3: It's not going well. There really is throwing shit at

643
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:45,359
Speaker 3: it is throwing for you know, nothing at ETN. He's

644
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 3: off the charts with his craziness. And then we got

645
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 3: a moment of clarity. It just came out of the blue.

646
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 3: It was really weird, and I have I haven't got

647
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 3: any more, but there used to be recording right up

648
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 3: to the moment. Thing is escalated to a point, and

649
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 3: so I looked at Andy and he looked at me.

650
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 3: They could see it was escalating outside and they're trying

651
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 3: to call us out, and I'm going we're not coming out.

652
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 3: We're not coming out. We are a critical spot, you know.

653
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:16,360
Speaker 3: And I got little heads coming around the corner of

654
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 3: door saying look out of you. No, we're not coming out.

655
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 3: And so there was nothing they could do about that.

656
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 3: And then all of a sudden we saw the jumper

657
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 3: loosen and I must have said something like that. Must

658
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 3: be really uncomfortable, mate, really uncomfortable, you know, loosening off

659
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 3: the bit and we can keep talking. Everything's going to

660
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:38,880
Speaker 3: be okay. But as you do, because negotiation is about

661
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:45,840
Speaker 3: creating relationships, about creating control, it's about listening. So we

662
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 3: got into the stage where he had loosened off his

663
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:51,880
Speaker 3: jumper and it was starting to fall away, and I

664
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:53,479
Speaker 3: looked at Andy out of the corner of my eye.

665
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 3: He looked at me, and I just said go and

666
00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:59,759
Speaker 3: I threw myself on top of her, locked her down,

667
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 3: and and he just came in and just hid ever ripper.

668
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:07,760
Speaker 3: It didn't drop him, but it stunted him. The TRG

669
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,399
Speaker 3: guys came charging in. There was six or eight of him.

670
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 3: He fought like crazy, absolutely crazy. Took ages to subdue him.

671
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 3: They eventually got him handcuffs. Of fifty three hours, it's

672
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 3: had gone on. He'd been standing there for fifty three hours.

673
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:29,840
Speaker 3: She was obviously a mess. I was utterly exhausted and exhilarated.

674
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 3: I remember I didn't smoke. I remember going outside afterwards

675
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:36,319
Speaker 3: with no debreath. I must have chuffed a couple of

676
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 3: cigarettes down. I was looking searching has everyone got a beer?

677
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 3: I just completely utterly drained and yet elated and feeling

678
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:45,799
Speaker 3: like I'd been vindicated.

679
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 1: That's the pressure, isn't it Like when it comes off,

680
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:52,719
Speaker 1: you'll you might have even got a pad on the back.

681
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:54,440
Speaker 1: They might have said, well, you shouldn't have done that,

682
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 1: but you ain't yet crucified. But if it went wrong there,

683
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 1: you're going to make a judgment call. If it went wrongly,

684
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 1: they would have had you, yeah, had your head for it.

685
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 3: And there were people who and we were well aware

686
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:09,279
Speaker 3: of this, you know, But I mean, we've been in

687
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 3: there so long, we'd been through it. I think both

688
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 3: Andy and I were willing to make that. We thought

689
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:18,359
Speaker 3: it was a worthwhile risk. It was calculated, you know,

690
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:23,319
Speaker 3: we had positioned ourselves. We were fairly confident we were

691
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 3: going to be successful. It was not a happy psychiatrist.

692
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:32,440
Speaker 3: At the end of it, we were commended there was

693
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:35,480
Speaker 3: a group commendation for everybody involved. It was just one

694
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 3: many individuals. The newspaper ran a front page on it,

695
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:41,359
Speaker 3: and I remember reading and said these guys should get

696
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:45,279
Speaker 3: a raise. I thought, yeah, never happened. Never happened. There

697
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:47,400
Speaker 3: was no raise. But you know, just the fact that

698
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 3: we got the job done well.

699
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:52,840
Speaker 2: That yeah, that is that is policing.

700
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:54,920
Speaker 1: It, that's core, and that that's a sharp end when

701
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,239
Speaker 1: you're in negotiating the situation like that. But sometimes you've

702
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:00,879
Speaker 1: got to make judgment calls, and very often you're doing

703
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:03,800
Speaker 1: it without a safety net. You know, if it goes bad,

704
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:05,960
Speaker 1: and you know, we've all had times if you're a

705
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 1: working cop, you're going to make a judgment call on

706
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:12,320
Speaker 1: the spot that you know is going to get dissected months,

707
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:15,319
Speaker 1: maybe years down the track by legal people getting paid

708
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:19,480
Speaker 1: a shitload of money to question why did you do this?

709
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 3: At the time, why did you do that? Yeah, yeah,

710
00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:24,440
Speaker 3: that's right. I mean I'm sure you would have heard

711
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 3: the same thing. If you're not getting in the shit

712
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 3: every now, man, you're not doing your job.

713
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,759
Speaker 1: Hey guys, it's Gary Jubilan here. Want to get more

714
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:37,239
Speaker 1: out of I catch killers? Then you should head over

715
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 1: to our new video feed on Spotify, where you can

716
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 1: watch every episode of I Catch Killers. Just search for

717
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:47,920
Speaker 1: I Catch Killers video in your Spotify app and start

718
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 1: watching today. Yeah, I think policing is a robust sport.

719
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:55,479
Speaker 1: And yeah, well it's not a sport, it's for real

720
00:40:55,960 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 1: and you've got to take those risks, calculated risks day,

721
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:04,160
Speaker 1: within the rules. But yeah, and I have an issue

722
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:09,040
Speaker 1: with leadership in the police that don't support people that like,

723
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:12,480
Speaker 1: in that situation, you were doing your best. It worked out,

724
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 1: but if it went bad, there would be a lot

725
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 1: of bosses I would imagine that would abandon you completely

726
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:20,800
Speaker 1: and leave you on your own. I always said that

727
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 1: when I was in a supervisory role, if you make

728
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:26,879
Speaker 1: a mistake when you're trying to do something, I will

729
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 1: support you. If you make a mistake out of laziness

730
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:33,920
Speaker 1: or something worse, I'm not going to support you, but

731
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:37,320
Speaker 1: I'll give you one hundred percent support because every cop

732
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:40,800
Speaker 1: that learns their trade, you make mistakes all the way along.

733
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:42,719
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter how long you've been in there. So

734
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 1: I think we struggle in this country, not just New

735
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:51,240
Speaker 1: South Wales, but across the country getting people in policing

736
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:54,440
Speaker 1: It's a very rewarding position, but it can be also

737
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:58,600
Speaker 1: unforgiving if you haven't got the support of the organization.

738
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:02,279
Speaker 2: And I think that comes down to leadership. That's my view.

739
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 3: What's your thoughts, Oh, look exactly. I mean leadership has

740
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:09,319
Speaker 3: always been a problem in policing. I mean I made

741
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 3: a choice not to go any further than senior sergeant.

742
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 3: I like too much being on the front line, and

743
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 3: while I was physically able to do it, that's where

744
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:19,279
Speaker 3: I wanted to be. I joined the police not to

745
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:22,480
Speaker 3: It was never about the money. It was never about

746
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 3: being a morally person who wanted to go and save

747
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:28,799
Speaker 3: the community. It was always about it was exciting, and

748
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:30,960
Speaker 3: I just wanted to stick to the excitement of it

749
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:33,280
Speaker 3: and stay on the front line. But I saw people

750
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:38,400
Speaker 3: go up the ladder whose motivation was not about leadership

751
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:42,839
Speaker 3: or leading people. It was about their progression, often overstating

752
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 3: their ability at that level to make decisions that were defensible,

753
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 3: and when things go wrong, they just it all came down.

754
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:53,920
Speaker 3: And I mean, I know that you and I have

755
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:57,719
Speaker 3: had our tough times in the job, and that you

756
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:00,320
Speaker 3: look at those and you learn by them. Many I'm

757
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:03,759
Speaker 3: not you're doing but I think, and you know from

758
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:06,440
Speaker 3: your history, I think that the two types of detectives

759
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 3: there is the fastidious dot the eye cross the tea

760
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:15,759
Speaker 3: very slow but methodical, and then is the dynamic, let's

761
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:17,879
Speaker 3: have a good crack, let's have it. You know. Yeah

762
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 3: we're not we're not breaking the rules, but certainly we're

763
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:22,239
Speaker 3: pushing them to the limits to be able to get

764
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 3: the job done and get it done effectively and efficiently.

765
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 3: And I think those two detectives are very good for jobs.

766
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:31,920
Speaker 3: The one in between is all they're only interested in,

767
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:34,840
Speaker 3: and this is a police officer around is their rise

768
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 3: up to the powers and who they can step on

769
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:37,759
Speaker 3: when they can get there.

770
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:40,600
Speaker 1: I haven't heard it broken up that way, and I agree,

771
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 1: even with the two extremes, you quite often it's good

772
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:48,279
Speaker 1: to have those type of detectives on the same and

773
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:49,600
Speaker 1: you get that good balance.

774
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 2: I say, with.

775
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 1: Policing, you you're a public servant first and foremost you're

776
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 1: there to serve the public. And what I like about leadership,

777
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:00,160
Speaker 1: and I've worked under some great leaders, so it's other

778
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:04,360
Speaker 1: than the board spray. I've been inspired by some really,

779
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,240
Speaker 1: really good leaders. But the ones I didn't have respect

780
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 1: for is the ones that what can I take from

781
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:12,759
Speaker 1: this organization? How can I get promoted, How can I

782
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:15,359
Speaker 1: keep myself without getting in the trouble? How do I

783
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 1: not have the pressure of the situation you just described,

784
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:21,240
Speaker 1: or when I'm going to court or at a murder scene.

785
00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:23,839
Speaker 1: They avoid all that, but they want to take all

786
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:26,400
Speaker 1: the cream from the top and just keep rising. And

787
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:29,960
Speaker 1: they're the ones that I think cause problems for the

788
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:32,839
Speaker 1: working police, the junior police underneath them.

789
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 3: I agree, And I think those are the ones who,

790
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 3: when they rise up these ladders, seem to think they

791
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:40,719
Speaker 3: know everything about everything, purely by the fact that they've

792
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:45,319
Speaker 3: risen up when their knowledge is so limited, and see

793
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:48,439
Speaker 3: anyone who has expertise in a field as a risk

794
00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:51,120
Speaker 3: to them, and don't take that device and actually work

795
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:54,920
Speaker 3: against it. It's very common pleashing. I'm sure every organization

796
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 3: had these problems. Leadership in pleasing is difficult because we

797
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 3: don't train people for leadership. You either learn it on

798
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:04,160
Speaker 3: the job or you don't learn it, and yet you

799
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 3: can still rise. And I think sometimes the military have

800
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 3: it over as they have a college that teachers, you know,

801
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:13,560
Speaker 3: and they don't get it right. But their leaders are

802
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 3: at least trained in leadership. We don't do that. We

803
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:17,879
Speaker 3: don't do it very well.

804
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:24,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it is something that's the failing in police,

805
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 1: but the using the analogy between the military and policing, Yes,

806
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 1: we could spend some more time on developing developing good

807
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:36,640
Speaker 1: leaders and not just rewarding people that have decided to

808
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:40,840
Speaker 1: take the leadership line. Like operational police officers need to

809
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:43,719
Speaker 1: be supported so they confer for their careers. If they

810
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:47,840
Speaker 1: want to say, you've stopped at senior sergeant, I stopped

811
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:50,160
Speaker 1: the chief inspector. But I think in the difference of

812
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:53,360
Speaker 1: the states, the senior sergeant is probably the equivalent of

813
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 1: the inspector in New South Wales. So I know what

814
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:58,920
Speaker 1: you're talking about. If I went any furtherized, I wouldn't

815
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:00,760
Speaker 1: be hands on. I wouldn't be able to get involved

816
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 1: in the operations like I wanted to. We're running out

817
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:06,399
Speaker 1: of the time because you've got such great stories. But

818
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:09,719
Speaker 1: you know, for a cowboy, as you call yourself, tell

819
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:12,160
Speaker 1: us about the worst injury you've had in the police. Now,

820
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:16,280
Speaker 1: you've worked in tactical You've been in some tough situations

821
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:20,120
Speaker 1: and heavy arrests and all that. Okay, cowboy, what's the

822
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:22,920
Speaker 1: worst injury you've had in the police. And I shouldn't

823
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:26,879
Speaker 1: be laughing because it was a bad injury.

824
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:29,920
Speaker 3: It was a bad injury, but it had some funny sides.

825
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:34,840
Speaker 3: I was running the matter section. We were preparing for Choggham,

826
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:37,800
Speaker 3: which is the Comwell Pedge government meeting here. That was

827
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:42,440
Speaker 3: about two thousand and eleven, so they were expecting a

828
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:46,279
Speaker 3: lot of public order. There were issues going on and

829
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:49,640
Speaker 3: a lot of protests, so we had to maintain a

830
00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:51,799
Speaker 3: high level of public order and we at the time

831
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:55,400
Speaker 3: had a very very public order orientated boutter section and

832
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 3: I think it was the second biggest in the country

833
00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:01,320
Speaker 3: at the time. We were in numbering about the riders horces.

834
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:03,920
Speaker 3: We were certainly in competition with New South Wales Police

835
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:06,200
Speaker 3: who were the biggest, and I had a lot to

836
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:09,320
Speaker 3: do with New South Wales Mounted. So we were training

837
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:13,319
Speaker 3: for the showgrounds and we're doing public corders. So when

838
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 3: you get a line of horses going doing public orders,

839
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:17,680
Speaker 3: so you go line of coppers in front of you,

840
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:21,040
Speaker 3: line with their shields or batons or whatever, and then

841
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:23,000
Speaker 3: there's a line of horses behind. When you want to

842
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:28,759
Speaker 3: move the crowd with speed and acertiveness, they do what's

843
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:31,600
Speaker 3: called break for mounted. So when they break for mounted,

844
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:34,840
Speaker 3: the two lines of crops split and go out wide.

845
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:38,920
Speaker 3: The mounted section comes through and passes them either probably

846
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:42,160
Speaker 3: at a cantas, so with some speed they stop, say

847
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:46,880
Speaker 3: ten meters further ahead. The coppers run around in a

848
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:49,840
Speaker 3: big circle and line up behind the horses. I was

849
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:53,200
Speaker 3: on a younger horse that was having problems, and when

850
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:55,720
Speaker 3: you do that sometimes you got to remove them from

851
00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:58,680
Speaker 3: things like the line to reduce the stress. So I

852
00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:01,880
Speaker 3: had moved this force behind the line, so I was

853
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:04,680
Speaker 3: probably about five to ten meters behind the line, taking

854
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:07,480
Speaker 3: it away from that initial stress. Because missiles and training

855
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:09,200
Speaker 3: were being thrown at us and this type of thing.

856
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:11,680
Speaker 3: It was a mistake on my part. So I'm on

857
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:13,680
Speaker 3: this horse. It's a little bit edgy, but I'm working.

858
00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:16,560
Speaker 3: It's a big horse, trying to calm it down. And

859
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 3: then with the brake with Mountain Had, I wanted to

860
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:21,920
Speaker 3: move the horse up a little slower, you know, just

861
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:24,480
Speaker 3: calmly behind, just to keep the horse going. What I

862
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 3: didn't account for was all these foot cops, about thirty

863
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:31,480
Speaker 3: of them, running around back towards me with shields and everything.

864
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 3: This horse just saw this and thought, yeah, it's going

865
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:37,359
Speaker 3: to die. So and I was spurring at time because

866
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:39,120
Speaker 3: it froze, and I gave a bit of spurs, but

867
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:41,920
Speaker 3: to go forward didn't go forward, so I gave it

868
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:44,600
Speaker 3: a little bit. And then this line came running and

869
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:47,719
Speaker 3: the horse reared up and then bolted and just run

870
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:51,640
Speaker 3: blindly a full gallop into the back of the line

871
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 3: of the horses and hit the back of the horses

872
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:56,920
Speaker 3: like hitting a brick wall. That caused me to hit

873
00:48:56,960 --> 00:48:58,560
Speaker 3: the front of the saddle because on the front of

874
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:00,680
Speaker 3: our saddles we had it what's called a swell, which

875
00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:04,280
Speaker 3: is a hard piece of wood where the stuff's attached

876
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:08,960
Speaker 3: to it. That the pain from that was just couldn't

877
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:11,319
Speaker 3: believe it. It was just like, oh my god. And then

878
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:15,319
Speaker 3: the horse started pushing in between two horses and was

879
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:18,240
Speaker 3: tearing my legs apart. And the last thing I remember

880
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 3: before I blacked out and thought I'm going to die here,

881
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 3: and this is just that I had one leg up

882
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:26,560
Speaker 3: in the air, another legs in the stirrup, and I'm

883
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:29,279
Speaker 3: going down the side and I was unconscious before I

884
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:32,120
Speaker 3: hit the ground, and apparently I was dragged for some

885
00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:35,280
Speaker 3: distance before my foot came out of the stirrup and

886
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:37,440
Speaker 3: then the horse just took off and the horse was

887
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:41,480
Speaker 3: chased out of the showground. Threw clam on CBD until

888
00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:44,759
Speaker 3: they initially got it. It just had completely freaked. I

889
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:48,400
Speaker 3: came to on the ground. I couldn't move. The ambulance

890
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:51,279
Speaker 3: turned up. I couldn't remember where I was, who I was,

891
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:54,400
Speaker 3: what I was doing initially, and they put me on

892
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:57,279
Speaker 3: the stretch of the ambulance. Officers then put me on

893
00:49:57,320 --> 00:49:58,719
Speaker 3: the board to put me on the stretcher and they

894
00:49:58,760 --> 00:49:59,160
Speaker 3: dropped me.

895
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:05,319
Speaker 2: I shouldn't be laughing. I'm not laughing at you online all.

896
00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:09,440
Speaker 3: My mature taking photographs and thinking this is hilarious. Coppers

897
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:12,400
Speaker 3: are cruel ads, which is great. So anyway, they eventually

898
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:15,239
Speaker 3: get me into the hospital. They're cutting all the gear off.

899
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:17,520
Speaker 3: They put me in a machine and found out what

900
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:21,680
Speaker 3: they had called a open book fracture to the pelvis,

901
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 3: and what that is. It's usually a motorcycle injury where

902
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:29,120
Speaker 3: motorcycles hit something. They hit the front of the the handlebars.

903
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:32,759
Speaker 3: It splits the pelvis into two, opens it up, and

904
00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:36,640
Speaker 3: normally you die from it because the force tears the

905
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:40,880
Speaker 3: several arteries. But because this was a slow and painful

906
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:44,200
Speaker 3: it had slowly the arteries had stretched, and then when

907
00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:47,280
Speaker 3: they hit the ground they'd come back together. That resulted

908
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:50,520
Speaker 3: in a plate being inserted and eight weeks in hospital

909
00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 3: and quite a few months of rehabilitation wheelchair walking, swimming.

910
00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 3: But that happened in May. By October I was back

911
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:04,280
Speaker 3: in the out at work just because I just wanted

912
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:07,000
Speaker 3: to do this. This is this is my baby.

913
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:08,800
Speaker 2: I knew you cowboys were tough.

914
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:13,120
Speaker 3: I knew it. My first radio was Boddington Radio after that,

915
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 3: and that was in the first week of November, and

916
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:20,640
Speaker 3: I realized that I'd probably pushed it too far because

917
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:23,920
Speaker 3: that really hurt. So I took a bit longer getting

918
00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:27,160
Speaker 3: back into I think, you know, look, it wasn't my

919
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:31,720
Speaker 3: only injury. I've been injured before. If you ride horses

920
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:33,920
Speaker 3: as much as I do, which is every day nearly

921
00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:37,120
Speaker 3: you train young horses, they're going to get you some time.

922
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:41,919
Speaker 3: I've had broken ank or broken leg, broken bracted neck,

923
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:44,640
Speaker 3: but I didn't know about But I used to climb

924
00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:48,560
Speaker 3: before that, and I had a climbing accident and fractured.

925
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:50,160
Speaker 2: A vertebro rock climbing.

926
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:56,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so yeah, you live live life.

927
00:51:56,000 --> 00:52:00,880
Speaker 2: On the edge. Look I don't like calculate.

928
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:04,640
Speaker 3: Or uncalculated, but you know, look at and I retired

929
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:09,319
Speaker 3: at sixty, the reason being is that I didn't fit

930
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:12,000
Speaker 3: to the organization anymore. I still love the job, loved

931
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:14,719
Speaker 3: every minute of it, but I decided I wanted my

932
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:16,719
Speaker 3: days to be my days and do what I want.

933
00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 3: And I was working in the film industry. I'd already

934
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:24,080
Speaker 3: done a feature film bringing horses to film, which was

935
00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:27,680
Speaker 3: a really great experience. I was being used as a

936
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:32,279
Speaker 3: technical advisor on various feature films, one called Hounds of Love.

937
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:35,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, name some of them, because I saw on your

938
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:36,759
Speaker 1: resume there's quite a few.

939
00:52:37,239 --> 00:52:40,120
Speaker 3: Well. Hounds of Love is loosely bade is on a

940
00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:44,720
Speaker 3: serial killer of the eighties in Perth. Very loosely stars

941
00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:48,920
Speaker 3: Stephen Curry and Susie Porter, who both got awards out

942
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:51,759
Speaker 3: of it. I can never see Stephen Curry again as

943
00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:56,040
Speaker 3: Dale from the Castle because such a sinister character in

944
00:52:56,040 --> 00:52:59,000
Speaker 3: this film. I've seen it. I think it's a masterpiece.

945
00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:01,160
Speaker 3: I never want to see it again, but if you

946
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:04,240
Speaker 3: see it once, it is an absolute masterpiece. I'm written

947
00:53:04,239 --> 00:53:06,279
Speaker 3: and directed by a young director at the time called

948
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:10,399
Speaker 3: Ben Young, who became the director and also my part

949
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:12,799
Speaker 3: of our team of three of us for getting the

950
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:16,880
Speaker 3: series run and the postcard banded off the ground. So

951
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:21,279
Speaker 3: that was a real step into technical advising. I've done

952
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 3: some since, whether it's on policing, script advising, or actually

953
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:31,600
Speaker 3: being the oldest tactical operator. Fortunately we have Balaclava's in

954
00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:34,839
Speaker 3: the series doing all that fun.

955
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:38,759
Speaker 1: But look, I've worked a bit in the media since

956
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:43,520
Speaker 1: I've left The Cops too, and I like the creative side.

957
00:53:43,560 --> 00:53:46,719
Speaker 1: Like in the Police, if you're I won't say I'm

958
00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:48,800
Speaker 1: a creative type, but if you like to think outside

959
00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:51,399
Speaker 1: the square a little bit, you get rained in because

960
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:54,560
Speaker 1: it's a lot of concrete thinking. And in the film

961
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:58,440
Speaker 1: and television industry of the media, you meet these creative

962
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:01,040
Speaker 1: types and some are right out there, but others I

963
00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:04,920
Speaker 1: get quite inspired from the Yeah, look, it's also the

964
00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:07,239
Speaker 1: energy that they bring they do.

965
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:10,520
Speaker 3: I mean, I think it's Look, it's a cutthroat business

966
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:13,440
Speaker 3: at the corporate level, but on set with a crew,

967
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:17,719
Speaker 3: working with people, it's such a collegial it's so familiar,

968
00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:21,279
Speaker 3: you know, the hierarchy and everything is just familiar to me,

969
00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:24,160
Speaker 3: and so I find it very easy to work in.

970
00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:27,080
Speaker 3: I have some of the same problems I've had. I

971
00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:31,279
Speaker 3: might have conflict with someone who who is making decisions

972
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:34,600
Speaker 3: that I don't quite agree with, But I take the view,

973
00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:37,879
Speaker 3: no one's going to die during this. There's no risk

974
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:40,239
Speaker 3: to life and death. Let's just move on.

975
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:43,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, the pressure is not there, but I do understand

976
00:54:44,040 --> 00:54:46,880
Speaker 1: when you're with a team, if you're away filming with soundman,

977
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:51,319
Speaker 1: the team, producer, whatever, you've got that feeling, like when

978
00:54:52,040 --> 00:54:54,520
Speaker 1: you're investigating crimes as a team.

979
00:54:55,120 --> 00:54:58,239
Speaker 3: You're just buck into that collegial teamwork.

980
00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:01,759
Speaker 1: And also, and we're talking the other day, when we're

981
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:04,279
Speaker 1: just having a chat, I like speaking to cops that

982
00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:06,879
Speaker 1: look back at their career and yeah, it has its

983
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:09,040
Speaker 1: highs and layers, but you look back and enjoy every

984
00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:11,680
Speaker 1: day that you were there and you're fortunate enough to

985
00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:14,560
Speaker 1: work in that area.

986
00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:16,680
Speaker 3: And as we sit here, I think there's so many

987
00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:19,080
Speaker 3: other stories that are told, and I know you're in

988
00:55:19,120 --> 00:55:21,799
Speaker 3: the same thing. You know, I'll leave those for other

989
00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:23,400
Speaker 3: people to tell because I don't want to take all

990
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:26,879
Speaker 3: the limelight. Okay, but you know, look at that there

991
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:29,040
Speaker 3: are other things that happened through our careers that are

992
00:55:29,080 --> 00:55:31,520
Speaker 3: both good and bad that we I think The biggest

993
00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:34,279
Speaker 3: thing for croppers, and I hope it's still happening, is

994
00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:38,560
Speaker 3: learning resilience. You know. I remember a sign or a

995
00:55:38,600 --> 00:55:40,120
Speaker 3: picture on the wall when I was going through the

996
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:42,840
Speaker 3: academy in the seventies, and I always stuck with me.

997
00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:45,440
Speaker 3: Learned to create a thick hide because you're going to

998
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:45,799
Speaker 3: need it.

999
00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:47,000
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1000
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:50,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I never took policing personally. You know, if

1001
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:52,480
Speaker 3: crooks did what they did, I did what I did

1002
00:55:53,560 --> 00:55:56,840
Speaker 3: and if they beat me, oh well, let's move on

1003
00:55:56,880 --> 00:55:58,759
Speaker 3: to the next one. If they didn't beat me, as

1004
00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:01,800
Speaker 3: long as it was never personal, I found it okay.

1005
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:03,480
Speaker 3: And I get him back to brennand Abbott. It was

1006
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:09,280
Speaker 3: never personal. You know, I see him as just a criminal.

1007
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:12,680
Speaker 3: At his time of offending, there was a degree of

1008
00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:15,200
Speaker 3: respect because you knew you were up against a real

1009
00:56:15,239 --> 00:56:19,920
Speaker 3: adversary who was going to really challenge you, and he

1010
00:56:20,040 --> 00:56:23,080
Speaker 3: was always one step ahead because he was the one

1011
00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:26,080
Speaker 3: who's making the moves. We were reacting to him, so

1012
00:56:26,120 --> 00:56:30,440
Speaker 3: we had to become more strategic and set the stage

1013
00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:33,000
Speaker 3: for him to react in a way that we expected

1014
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:36,640
Speaker 3: him to. So you know, that's always made me somewhat

1015
00:56:36,680 --> 00:56:37,400
Speaker 3: respectful of it.

1016
00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:40,919
Speaker 1: Well, Glenn thank you very much for taking the time.

1017
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:44,080
Speaker 1: I really really appreciate that. Love the stories, love having

1018
00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:46,240
Speaker 1: a chat with you, and keep up the good work.

1019
00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:49,080
Speaker 2: And thank you for the services to the community.

1020
00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:51,719
Speaker 1: When you were in the cops, because I know we

1021
00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:55,440
Speaker 1: all make sacrifices, and I'm sure you were making some

1022
00:56:55,520 --> 00:56:57,440
Speaker 1: big sacrifices over the years.

1023
00:56:57,880 --> 00:57:02,400
Speaker 3: Cheers Mate. On nineteen nine