1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:03,560 Speaker 1: She's going to have had a lot of followers. Yeah, 2 00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: not all of them with as good as name as hers. 3 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:08,319 Speaker 1: One of the best bylines I've ever heard. 4 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 2: She read it and thought this isn't very good. I 5 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:11,400 Speaker 2: could do better. 6 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: How did she know much about how they operated? Was 7 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 1: she involved some way? And it shows you that there's 8 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:20,600 Speaker 1: always been an appetite for what. 9 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 2: We're doing here, nothing but murders and bloodshed and hanging. 10 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 3: Oh, it's a great title. 11 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:29,320 Speaker 1: I'm Andrew Rule. This is life and Crimes. And today 12 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: we've got something a little bit different. We have Lucy 13 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: Sussex here. Lucy and I met many years ago at 14 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:38,720 Speaker 1: a neck Kellier Woods and we had a chat. And 15 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: she didn't forget that because recently she got in touch 16 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 1: and said, I've now done a book about some people 17 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 1: who did naughty things a long time ago. And I said, well, 18 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 1: you sound like somebody that should come and talk to 19 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 1: us on laughing crimes. Lucy, and she's coming, and she's 20 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 1: got not one, but two books. I believe, Lucy Sussex, 21 00:00:58,320 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: why are you here? 22 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 2: Me and Mike co writer Meghan Brown, we're launching two books. 23 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 2: One is our biography of Mary Fortune, who was one 24 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:11,319 Speaker 2: of the first two women to write detective stories. All right, 25 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:13,119 Speaker 2: she lived in Melbourne. 26 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, great, name was a real name. 27 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:17,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, that was her second marriag name. 28 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 3: Oh, it's gorgeous name. 29 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, Irish, Irish, beautiful. And so she wrote over five 30 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 2: hundred detective stories. 31 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 1: She didn't what short ones for newspapers or periodicals. 32 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:32,039 Speaker 2: Well, she wrote for the Herald. She wrote short ones, 33 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 2: but slightly longer ones for a periodical called The Australian Journal, 34 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 2: which was founded in the eighteen sixties and lasted until 35 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 2: the nineteen fifties. 36 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: Ge. That's a good innings. 37 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 2: It was a very good innings for a fiction magazine. 38 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 3: Were they serialized. 39 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 2: It wasn't a series called the Detective's Album. And the 40 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 2: idea behind it was a was a police detective who 41 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 2: had a photo album and these were all the crimsi'd encountered. 42 00:01:57,600 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 3: I see. 43 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 2: So she published that under theme w W, and nobody 44 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 2: ever realized it was a woman. Her publishers kept its secret. 45 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 2: And so the second book where theres a collection of 46 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 2: her detective fiction called Nothing but Murders and Bloodshed and Hanging. 47 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 3: Oh, it's a great title. 48 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 2: It's out of one of her actual stories. 49 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:22,639 Speaker 1: Is that you've lifted it from there, And how does 50 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 1: the collection go? How does it stand up to modern eyes? 51 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:29,800 Speaker 2: Well, I think it's rollicling good yarns. But I mean, 52 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 2: if you're thinking Colin Doyle, well no, but these are 53 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:37,640 Speaker 2: these are police, these are police procedurals. So she writes 54 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 2: with them, writes about the mounted police that was in 55 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 2: the bush and they were based on the Royal Ulster Constabulary, 56 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:49,079 Speaker 2: and then the town police was based on the English. 57 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 2: So she then goes to writing about detectives. 58 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:55,080 Speaker 1: How did she know much about how they operated? Was 59 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: she involved some way with. 60 00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, she came to Australia for the gold in 61 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 2: eighteen fifty five. 62 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 1: She and many others. 63 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 2: Oh yes, many of our ancestors, I suspect, I think so. 64 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 2: But she was joining her father and it looks like 65 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 2: she ran away from her husband in Canada and her 66 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 2: father was running a goldfields store in Cassle, Maine region, right, 67 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:20,919 Speaker 2: So she joined him. And she wrote this up on 68 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 2: a memoir slightly disguised and fictionalized because she was a 69 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 2: bit of a wild lady. 70 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 1: She must have been. So she's abandoned, She's Irish by birth, 71 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 1: she's abandoned husband, number one in Canada, or he abandoned her. 72 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 1: Then she's come to the goldfields in Australia. Yeah, this 73 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 1: is what people don't realize is that gold attracted people. 74 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 2: They crisscrossed the world incredibly mobile. 75 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 1: Mobile. 76 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 2: You just topped on us on a sailing ship. 77 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: Where you were and unless it sank, in which case 78 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 1: you weren't. 79 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 2: Well exactly. But she goes get to the central goldfields 80 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 2: after gaining knowledge of a few things like slie rog selling, 81 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 2: which was the only way a goldfield store could really 82 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 2: make money. It was illegal and on the goldfield she was. 83 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 2: She was only there a month or two and there 84 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:10,560 Speaker 2: was a murder and she writes about it, so you know, 85 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 2: she got a taste for true crime. But she goes 86 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:16,559 Speaker 2: out what bender go away? And she's in a gold 87 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 2: field and she meets a handsome young copper mounted policeman 88 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 2: called Percy Brett, and they elope and get married quite bigamousley, 89 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 2: I mean. 90 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:28,279 Speaker 1: Because she hadn't she wasn't actually divorced. 91 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 2: Well, a bit difficult those days, expensive. 92 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 1: So but he was in Canada. That's not bad. 93 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,480 Speaker 2: I didn't know. He didn't know. So she marries Percy 94 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 2: Brett and they lie about their ages. The on the 95 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 2: wedding certificate. 96 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 1: She went up a bit in hers down he went. 97 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 2: He's went down a bit, and her state. Hers went 98 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 2: down a little bit, and his went down to he 99 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 2: was only about twenty oh and she was about twenty four. 100 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 1: Oh, I say, okay, so. 101 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:56,919 Speaker 2: They And now the lie was that she said she 102 00:04:56,960 --> 00:04:57,480 Speaker 2: was a widow. 103 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:00,600 Speaker 1: Oh well, you know, well she might have been by then, 104 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:02,600 Speaker 1: for all she knew. He might have a grizzly bear, 105 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 1: might have eaten him in Alaska. 106 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 2: Absolutely. The thing was that my grandfather was a clergyman, 107 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 2: and he said, if he was marrying a widow and 108 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 2: they looked suspicious widow or widow, and they looked suspiciously young, 109 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 2: it may make absolutely certain. They wrote the date of 110 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:22,479 Speaker 2: when they were bereaved on the certificate because it cleared him. 111 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:23,799 Speaker 3: Oh I see. 112 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:26,720 Speaker 2: Because people couldn't get divorced. And the most common thing 113 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 2: was that she just ran off to another colony married. 114 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:34,919 Speaker 2: And yeah, so Daisy Bates who married Brent. She she married, 115 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:36,799 Speaker 2: managed about two big of mis marriages. 116 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 1: Oh, Daisy Baits, she was a very interesting book about 117 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:43,920 Speaker 1: the passing of the natives. I think she called it 118 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 1: something like that. 119 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:50,119 Speaker 2: Yes, and of course Breaker Morant was absolutely. 120 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 1: Not as not the charming chap that perhaps he was 121 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 1: presented as. I think he might have made. 122 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 2: A rogue the film. Yeah, well there's a lot of 123 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 2: charming chaps who rogues. But anyway, marriage doesn't last still, 124 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:09,159 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, look at all the con men around 125 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 2: the place. 126 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 1: Oh yes, there's many of them. Now, so Mary Fortune, 127 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 1: where did she pick up the fortune? Name was that 128 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 1: from she picked up? That was her first husband, that's 129 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: the Canadian. 130 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, and the Brett marriage didn't last. He nicked off 131 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 2: to New South Wales and oddly enough ends up being 132 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:29,799 Speaker 2: held up by Ned Kelly in the Deildary Bank robbery. 133 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 2: Oh magnificent, And he actually behaved using his copper skills. 134 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 2: He actually talked down Steve Hart from from shooting somebody. 135 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 2: Really Steve Hart was getting a bit excited, and Percy Brett, 136 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 2: who was by this stage, you know, a bit of 137 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 2: a father figure. And now, no, Ned Kelly, this won't do. 138 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 1: This, won't do. Don't be shooting them. 139 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:53,920 Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, which took guts. 140 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: Very good man. And did they have any children? 141 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:00,720 Speaker 2: No, they didn't, but she had an illegitimate child beforehand, 142 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 2: and this child whom she called George, grew up to 143 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 2: be a He started a thief, and he robbed banks, 144 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 2: and he correcked safes, and he spent a lot of 145 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 2: his time in jail. 146 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: Did he use of the name Fortune? He has various names. 147 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 3: I suppose he's. 148 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 2: Stuck with the name Fortune initially, and then Tortune, and 149 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 2: then he had a few aliases. And if you go 150 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 2: to Trove and type in George Fortune and you'll sort 151 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 2: of find quite a lot of material, including the Herald. 152 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 1: The bank robber. Yes, is magnificent. So we've seen her 153 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: go from her twenties to her thirties. When did she 154 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: really take to the writing big time? 155 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 2: She sees that there's a new fiction magazine, and I 156 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 2: think that she's in the loop as regards contributors, because 157 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 2: when she was on the Castlemone Goldfield, she actually was 158 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 2: writing revolutionary poetry. A lah Eureka was she? And so 159 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 2: the editor said, it's the Irish course, of course, Well 160 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 2: her name was. She used her initials, and there was 161 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 2: a request that MHF will call in the offices at 162 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 2: his earliest conveniences, And so she walks in a crinoline 163 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 2: with a small small child. They say, oh, well, we 164 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 2: were in need of a sub editor and thought MHF 165 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 2: would suit. So no such thing as Lady Journo's those. 166 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 3: But she did get the she got the job. 167 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 2: No, she did not in calcimone. But she did end 168 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 2: up working for the Herald in the eighteen seventies. But 169 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 2: in the meantime Australian Journal came out. They had a 170 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 2: police story in it, and she read it and thought 171 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 2: this isn't very good. I could do better, So she 172 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 2: sends it in and they sign her up to do 173 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 2: us to do a series, which doesn't last terribly long 174 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 2: because it's a first attempt. But later on, after a 175 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 2: few things, other jobs like being on a governess and 176 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 2: working as a housekeeper. Would you believe for the family 177 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 2: that turned into Brown Brothers? 178 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 3: Is that a fact? 179 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 1: Millowa? 180 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, Miloa yeah, good lord. Small world, small world indeed. 181 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 2: But she sees this chance and so a few years 182 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 2: so she thinks she's looking for a hook and she's 183 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:20,559 Speaker 2: writing for the Australian Journal, all sorts of things, from 184 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:25,559 Speaker 2: Gothic novels to poetry, and she thoughts gets the idea 185 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:29,319 Speaker 2: of a detective's album, and once she's got that she's got. 186 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 2: She can make a series from that because every month 187 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 2: it's a new photo and she tells the story of 188 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:39,319 Speaker 2: that photo, and that lasts until about nineteen oh nine. 189 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: That was a very good idea, and it shows you 190 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 1: that there's always been an appetite for what we're doing here, 191 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:49,719 Speaker 1: which absolutely we're talking about crime more or less to 192 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 1: people who want to listen. But those same people, their 193 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:59,839 Speaker 1: great grandparents also had that interest, and she would marry for, 194 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 1: among others, would provide the material for them to read. 195 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: In an era before radio and television. Of course, journals 196 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: and newspapers provided that fascinating reading material with factual true 197 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 1: crime and also fiction. 198 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, and she could mix both up. You can can 199 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:23,560 Speaker 2: trace actual crimes. One of georgie's Burg's was an old bury. 200 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:27,719 Speaker 2: They robbed a bank and they wheeled the safer way 201 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:29,559 Speaker 2: to the river bank so they can break it open 202 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:32,959 Speaker 2: in a wheelbower, which they nicked, of course, laughing all 203 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 2: the time, and she puts the detail of the safe 204 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 2: and the wheelbower into her story, so she was using 205 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 2: him for copy. 206 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:43,320 Speaker 1: Safe cracking was a very big thing until there are 207 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 1: still people alive that have Cracksaves went out probably in 208 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 1: the eighties and nineties. 209 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 2: I suspect probably the last possible point when they got 210 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:53,319 Speaker 2: really too complex. 211 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 1: Complex and also cash started to be less of a 212 00:10:55,600 --> 00:11:00,199 Speaker 1: yeah thing, the saves got very good and well, he's 213 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: no longer with us, But had he not been shot 214 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:07,319 Speaker 1: dead back twenty five or thirty years ago. Like Graham 215 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 1: Kinderbaro known as the Monster, he was extremely good at 216 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 1: opening safety and others developed the magnetic duelking technique and 217 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:19,959 Speaker 1: a very big one at m Willembar in New South Wales. 218 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 1: And they happened to know, interestingly that there was a 219 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 1: lot of money in. 220 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 3: The safe that week because he talked. 221 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 1: Somebody suggested that perhaps a local policeman from up there 222 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:33,560 Speaker 1: might have heard something and might have had his heat 223 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 1: of the ground. It's a two way street, I think 224 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 1: so that possibly, possibly, so this might be a wicked 225 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:44,720 Speaker 1: rumor and gossip. And if that policeman is alive, clearly 226 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:47,680 Speaker 1: it's a rumor and gossip absolutely, But if he's dead, 227 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:48,560 Speaker 1: well maybe not. 228 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:51,719 Speaker 2: Just one detail about the fortune. 229 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: The fortune fortune, yeah, well, yes. 230 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 2: A George fortune. When he was doing that safe cracking, 231 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:58,559 Speaker 2: it was covered when it was retrieved, it was covered 232 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:03,680 Speaker 2: in green paint. Work out why, and then I thought 233 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:06,839 Speaker 2: composition of paint, and then looking at other cases because 234 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:08,559 Speaker 2: I had to read really so much. I had to 235 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 2: get educated in this. And paint contained had oil in it, 236 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 2: and oil was if you were drilling into the safe 237 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:19,679 Speaker 2: you needed lubricants so that it didn't overheat, right, and 238 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:19,960 Speaker 2: you know. 239 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah said everything, And so they oil to keep 240 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 1: the Yeah, the drill bit cool and that made everything green. 241 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:31,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, they were covered in green paint. 242 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 1: That fact and staff very very interesting stuff, all the detail. 243 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 1: Mary went on, did you say till nineteen oh nine. 244 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, there was a bit of a break when George. 245 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:47,320 Speaker 1: Big Gap it's a big from the gold rushers from the. 246 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 2: Late fifty fifties, forty years. Yeah, and it's about the 247 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 2: longest cereal worldwide of the eighteen hundreds. 248 00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:57,680 Speaker 3: Is that a fact? 249 00:12:57,720 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 2: So nobody else goes on so long? 250 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:05,080 Speaker 1: I mean, this is an unknoble traditional well perhaps not noble, 251 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 1: but Charles Dickens of course made his name by writing. 252 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 3: Pretty good copy, pretty fast that hooked. 253 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 1: People into buying every day or every week, she realized stuff, 254 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 1: which is why he over wrote so much. That's why 255 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 1: those stories are so voluminous. And the sentences are so 256 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 1: long and fluffy because he was writing Penny a line. Essentially, 257 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 1: there's a. 258 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 2: Difference between him and her, and that she's not got 259 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 2: so much education, and so if you look at Victorian novels, 260 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 2: they're incredibly heavy, they are and lots and lots of words. 261 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 2: She's much more direct, Yes, and she likes doing dialogue, 262 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 2: does she? And the first her first crime. 263 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 1: She's a screenwriter. 264 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:50,680 Speaker 2: Oh, she could have been in the right place. I mean, 265 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:52,319 Speaker 2: of course, she wrote a pantomime. 266 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 1: She's a screenwriter. She's writing dialogue about crime. If she 267 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 1: was here today, she'd be writing under. 268 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 2: I wish that somebody would make TV out of her fiction. 269 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 2: I reckon to be good. 270 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 1: It's not so silly, particularly if the plots still work 271 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 1: and the stories work, that could be actually modernized. So 272 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:16,080 Speaker 1: you haven't got a necessarily a costume drama, because they're 273 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 1: very expensive. You know, we've got to have horses and 274 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 1: buggies and oh and it's very expensive to do a 275 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 1: costume drama. But if the stories lines work at the 276 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 1: level of humans doing bad things, probably you could. 277 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 2: I mean, she's got a locked tent mystery, A lot 278 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 2: of locked tent mystery. 279 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: I locked tent mystery. And how does that's the premise 280 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: a locked ten? How do you lock a ten? 281 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 2: Well, you open it from the front and then you 282 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 2: murder somebody. Then you cut a seam out the back. 283 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 2: You make it look as if it's been closed from insight, 284 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 2: and you cut a seam and then you sew it open. 285 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 2: And that's actually based on a real case. 286 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 3: So it shut. 287 00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, so it shut so that nobody takes and he 288 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 1: noticed for a farewell until they smell things. 289 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 2: Well, that's exactly what. 290 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 3: We just get a four day start. 291 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 2: Well, it's the most gruesome story of that era I 292 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 2: can find, because the actually describes the stench and the flies, 293 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 2: and as they get close to it, the flies buzz 294 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 2: up and against the walls of the tent, and it's 295 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 2: he thought, she's actually seen that. 296 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: She's seen that. 297 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 3: That's a real thing. 298 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, that is so clever, because when people going past 299 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 1: saw a tent all closed, they leave it alone because 300 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 1: it's a fellow digger or something. I gave the bad 301 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 1: person a many days that they could be getting on 302 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 1: a boat in Port Philip, heading off to Sydney or 303 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 1: somewhere Adelaide. 304 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 2: It was a lot easier to vanish In those. 305 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 3: Days, it was, wasn't it. 306 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 1: I've been struck that even in our lifetime, and I 307 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 1: know we're quite young, you and I, and in our lifetime, 308 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 1: the differences. If you got away with something when we 309 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 1: were kids in the sixties, you get away with it, 310 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: no one saw you do it, and you didn't leave 311 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 1: any fingerprints. Every chance you're going to get away with 312 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 1: it for good because there's no electronic stuff. I mean, 313 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 1: I often bang on about this, but if you could 314 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 1: just avoid that first few days, that's absolutely true, and 315 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 1: that you didn't have to be a master criminal, providing 316 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 1: you a bit careful and a bit lucky. Nowadays, if 317 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: you commit a serious crime, murder or something, it's very. 318 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 3: Difficult to get away with because there's there will be clues. 319 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 1: And there will be electronic stuff, and there will be 320 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 1: something somewhere. There'll be you know, the footage in cars 321 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 1: and the CCTV and all the rest of it. We're 322 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 1: in a world that's just full of cameras now. 323 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 2: Well, in those days, I mean, the camera was pretty 324 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 2: new and they didn't even have much forensics, and they 325 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 2: couldn't distinguish blood from no animals or human. But what 326 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 2: they did have, of course, I guess that this is 327 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:56,239 Speaker 2: eternal and the police was that they had informers. 328 00:16:56,760 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 3: Oh yes, and this. 329 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 2: Is a subject which she knows too much about, don't she. 330 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 2: Nice middle class lady journalists of the time weren't supposed 331 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 2: to know about police informants. 332 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 1: But she'd been married to policeman that was willing to 333 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: have a bigger mismarriage. Oh. 334 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:15,160 Speaker 2: I don't know if he knew. 335 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:18,120 Speaker 1: He may not have known she had an illegitimate child. 336 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:20,200 Speaker 1: She was a nice middle class lady up to a point. 337 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:23,200 Speaker 2: Up to a point. Okay, she was about She was 338 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 2: a bohemian. 339 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 1: She wasn't exactly the bishop's daughter. She well, I don't 340 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,880 Speaker 1: know now what is her background. When we say she's 341 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 1: not the bishop's daughter, who was she really? You know? 342 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:37,239 Speaker 2: Well, her father was an engineer, civil engineer, but of 343 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 2: course his name's Wilson, so it's really hard to trace. 344 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:44,160 Speaker 1: And she was obviously educated fairly well in Ireland. 345 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:48,159 Speaker 2: And her father I think wrote her poetry, so he 346 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 2: was a bit of a man who was interested in literature. 347 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 1: I see Anglo Irish praps. 348 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:59,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, Scott's actually Scott's first North of course. But yeah, 349 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:02,359 Speaker 2: you had a degree of education, seems to know French, 350 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 2: seems to know Latin, but has this very direct way 351 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:07,880 Speaker 2: of talking. And it's like she's a tour gauge from 352 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 2: the past and you're going around in Melbourne. But if 353 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:13,960 Speaker 2: she takes her on a tour of underbelly Melbourne, she'd 354 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 2: be using a word which not even old old style 355 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 2: coppers used now, which is fiz gig And that was 356 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 2: what they called Did you ever hear that word? 357 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:25,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, I know what it means. And when years ago, 358 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 1: old time older coppers would say. 359 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 3: He's a fizz. 360 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 1: So they still the older crooks and the older coppers 361 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 1: would refer to an informer as a fizz, but often 362 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 1: not in a derogatory way. They an old copper would say, 363 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: I've got a fizz. There's a bloke in this part. 364 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:42,400 Speaker 1: He's a bit of a fizz for me. He's one 365 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:46,159 Speaker 1: of my Hysits wasn't a totally derogatory term, whereas you 366 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:50,200 Speaker 1: know crooks who hate informers will call them dogs or lag. 367 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 1: You know he's a lagger. 368 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:55,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, well she uses that word, and that's among the 369 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:58,920 Speaker 2: earliest uses of that word in print. She might have 370 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 2: sort of popular well, I don't know. I mean sort 371 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:04,959 Speaker 2: of she knew. There's evidence that she knew Thomas O'Callahan, 372 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 2: who was a police commissioner, and he was a detective 373 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 2: and he was a pretty rough and extremely efficient thief taker. 374 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 2: There's another old word. But I put this to a 375 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 2: couple of detectives. I've like Sandra Nicholson who's ex super detectives, 376 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:26,679 Speaker 2: and she said, look, and I said, could could she 377 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 2: have been his fizz? And Sandra said, yeah, sure, she 378 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 2: fits the profile. 379 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:37,160 Speaker 1: And because she was running around hearing things in her yeah, 380 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 1: and she could. It would buy osmosis the other. 381 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 2: Circles, which yeah, And she describes the process quite well 382 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 2: and how it's kind of it's an odd relationship. She 383 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:51,120 Speaker 2: was getting story ideas from them and they were giving 384 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:54,119 Speaker 2: her and giving information. Yes, I see, So there is 385 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:55,680 Speaker 2: evidence that she was working. 386 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 1: Both sides, both sides, which you know, she's a person. 387 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:02,400 Speaker 1: If she was here now we'd understand her because it's 388 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: what a lot of journals do. 389 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:06,160 Speaker 3: Absolutely, they rub shoulders. 390 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 1: With this one and this one and this one, and 391 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 1: some of them to a gradual, lesser extent, they trade information. Yeah, 392 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:16,119 Speaker 1: and you know some do it too much, probably picking 393 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,200 Speaker 1: up information from this source to so they can pass 394 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 1: it on to someone else. That's what they do. 395 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:24,359 Speaker 3: History a long history. It does. 396 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:27,439 Speaker 1: Indeed, Mary didn't invent it, but she's going to had 397 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 1: a lot of followers, Yeah, not all of them with 398 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 1: as good as name as hers. One of the best 399 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 1: bylines I've ever heard. 400 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 2: It's a really good name. When I first came across it, 401 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 2: I thought this can't be real, but it did turn 402 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:38,679 Speaker 2: out to be. 403 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 1: Whis as good a name as Elmore Leonard. 404 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:43,360 Speaker 2: Now that's a really good writer too, He's. 405 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:44,720 Speaker 1: A very good writer, and well Leonard. 406 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 2: But I think because her stuff was printed for so long, 407 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 2: and it was being reprinted way into the nineteen twenties, 408 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 2: and was it and really the Australian Journal used to 409 00:20:56,520 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 2: bind its yearly volumes and these would be passed around 410 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:04,920 Speaker 2: and I think, okay, it's possible that, say Arthur Upfield 411 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:06,880 Speaker 2: read the stuff very good. 412 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:12,639 Speaker 1: Point. So these were sort of pioneering writers slash entertainers 413 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 1: journalists in a pioneer society that's pretty frontier society really, 414 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: where there was not much else to do once the 415 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 1: chooks went to bed, but turned the owl lamp on, 416 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:28,160 Speaker 1: which I remember doing as a kid, deal care and read, 417 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:32,440 Speaker 1: and that this sort of stuff would when particularly crime. 418 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,159 Speaker 3: Staff, it would be popular with all. 419 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 1: Sorts of people undercommon people, shearers and drovers and all, 420 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:40,440 Speaker 1: you know. 421 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:42,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, because she was writing about them. 422 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: And they'd identify with that and they could read it. 423 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:49,479 Speaker 1: Especially she wrote simply. 424 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 2: It's clear and it addresses you directly, and in journalism 425 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 2: in particularly you get a real sense of personality. It 426 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:55,440 Speaker 2: shines through. 427 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 3: That's good. 428 00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 1: We saw that sort of clear, direct writing very modern 429 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 1: in a way in the bulletin of the eighties and 430 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:05,639 Speaker 1: nineties Henry Lawson and others. 431 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:08,440 Speaker 2: She precedes them, and she was. 432 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 1: Really part of that push to do that, to be 433 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 1: direct and not flowery. 434 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 2: Another thing is that the Australian Journal was and this 435 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:21,119 Speaker 2: bulletin claimed to be full of Australian themes, but the 436 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 2: Australian Journal said, we're not going to print anything there 437 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 2: isn't of colonial interest and our writers going to be colonial. 438 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 2: There was nothing of the cultural cringe there, and they 439 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 2: recognized that people really wanted to read about this surrounding. 440 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 1: About themselves, really their own lives and values, which was smart. 441 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:45,679 Speaker 1: These were very entrepreneurial and interesting, but I mean it's 442 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,639 Speaker 1: just as clever as some people that start up Silicon Valley. 443 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 1: They see an opportunity and it's right for the times, 444 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 1: and they did it. Yeah. 445 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 2: And I mean the fact that the magazine lasted ninety years, 446 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 2: that's a very long time. 447 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 1: In Australia, daggering. And to think that she wrote for 448 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 1: that massive change. She starts basically in the gold fields here, 449 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 1: which is pre trains really and all that sort of 450 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:12,879 Speaker 1: thing in Victoria pretty well, so it's a horse and 451 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:17,200 Speaker 1: buggy era and bullicks and she writes right up until 452 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:25,440 Speaker 1: there's primitive aircraft and cars around and telephones, early telephones, telegraph, yeah, 453 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 1: or a lot of the things that the modern world 454 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:33,240 Speaker 1: was predicated on. She saw that inside her working life. 455 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 1: It's quite astonishing. Yeah. 456 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,920 Speaker 2: And she could even vote towards the end, Yes. 457 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 1: Could vote good honor. 458 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:41,920 Speaker 3: What are the titles? 459 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,919 Speaker 2: Well, given that George, given that the pair of them 460 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:50,439 Speaker 2: were such wild characters, we caught it outrageous fortunes. I 461 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 2: love it, Yes, And we took a line out of 462 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 2: her own story for the collection of detective fiction, and 463 00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,679 Speaker 2: that's called nothing but Murders and Bloodshed and hanging. 464 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 1: Oh, it's a wonderful line. I really want to steal 465 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:06,120 Speaker 1: it myself. Just hanging. It's wonderful. 466 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 3: I've told this story before. 467 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 1: John, our producer, will be throwing things at me. But 468 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 1: I can recall I'm so old, and I can recall 469 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:20,400 Speaker 1: sitting in what was in the VFL football rooms down 470 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:23,920 Speaker 1: in Jollymont when players would be reported and they'd have 471 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:27,879 Speaker 1: a tribunal. And one of the old, old, gray beard, 472 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 1: gray haired journos at the time, this would be in 473 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:34,200 Speaker 1: the probably nineteen seventy nine nineteen eighty, was an old 474 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 1: fellow called Jerry Whiting who worked for AAP and he 475 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,360 Speaker 1: was a really good, efficient, old reporter, and he had 476 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 1: good shorthand, and he was a red face and lots 477 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:46,399 Speaker 1: of gray hair. And we were talking about hangings and stuff. 478 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 1: We were waiting, and there'd been quite a few journalists 479 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 1: that were very upset because they'd seen the Ryan hanging. 480 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 1: And one had written a very eloquent piece, and one 481 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 1: had got sad about it, and one had a nervous 482 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 1: breakdown whatever, you know, some of them missed burst into 483 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:04,720 Speaker 1: tears about it and all this. And he said, I 484 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:06,240 Speaker 1: don't know what they're on about. And I said why, 485 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:10,639 Speaker 1: He said, I covered three or four hangings. Back before 486 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 1: the war, he'd sent several hangings and covered them for 487 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:18,200 Speaker 1: the newspapers, and it was just sort of what he'd done. Well. 488 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:20,879 Speaker 2: Dickens was all in favor of hangings until he actually 489 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 2: witnessed a public hanging and he was really put off 490 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,359 Speaker 2: for the way people behaved. Yes, and after that he 491 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,880 Speaker 2: wasn't in favor. And so they put the hangings, made 492 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 2: them more private, and in a way that coincides with 493 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:38,159 Speaker 2: the rise of detective fiction, because you'd have the public 494 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:42,880 Speaker 2: spectacle of someone being hanged, and you can't do that anymore. 495 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 2: So what do you do? Yeah, you read stories. 496 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,359 Speaker 3: You've read stories instead. Well, that's true. 497 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:53,119 Speaker 1: It was part of the creeping gentility of society was 498 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 1: to read about this stuff rather than just go out 499 00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:59,040 Speaker 1: and throw tomatoes at people in the stocks and watch 500 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:03,120 Speaker 1: them absolute they breathe their last on the gibbet, which 501 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 1: would be a very awful thing. 502 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 2: Unless if you've got an inexperienced hangman who didn't know 503 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,239 Speaker 2: how to do it proper. Lea, oh not good. Oh 504 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 2: you're slightly strength, slowly strall. 505 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 1: At one end you're slowly strangled, and the others sometimes 506 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 1: their head would be pulled off, So not good either way. 507 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 2: No, because especially for the people who had to clean 508 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 2: up all the. 509 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,960 Speaker 1: Blood and blood and other bodily fluids. 510 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:29,160 Speaker 2: I think that they made them wear rubber nickers. 511 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:34,160 Speaker 1: Yes, it was a very savage business, and I think 512 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 1: anybody that witnessed them didn't really love it unless they 513 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:40,880 Speaker 1: unless they were, you know, a little bit weird. 514 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:45,679 Speaker 2: Well, let's not get into capital punishment. But it doesn't 515 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 2: really work. 516 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:47,679 Speaker 1: No, it doesn't. 517 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:48,440 Speaker 3: That's a good point. 518 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 1: Capital punishment is a story for another day. So thanks 519 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:56,200 Speaker 1: Lucy for coming in and filling us in on Outrageous Fortunes. 520 00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 3: It's a great title, but of course, really. 521 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 1: It's the name you had to give it because it's 522 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 1: about Mary and the wonderful Mary Fortune and a scoundrel 523 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:08,359 Speaker 1: of a son, George. 524 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:10,960 Speaker 2: So we're indeed outrangers. 525 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 1: Now, Liscy. Both books will be in bookshops by the 526 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:16,359 Speaker 1: time this broadcast goes to air. It so if you 527 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 1: want it, go in and ask for Outrageous Fortunes and. 528 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,200 Speaker 2: Nothing but murders and bloodshed and hanging. It's a long day. 529 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 2: I've like, can't here remember my own title. Thank you 530 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 2: for having. 531 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,639 Speaker 1: Me, thank you, thanks for listening. Life and Crimes is 532 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 1: a Sunday Herald Sun production for true crime Australia. Our 533 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 1: producer is Johnty Burton. For my columns, features and more, 534 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:45,880 Speaker 1: go to harold'sun dot com dot au forward slash Andrew 535 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:51,400 Speaker 1: rule one word. For advertising inquiries, go to news Podcasts 536 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,960 Speaker 1: sold at news dot com dot au. That is all 537 00:27:56,040 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 1: one word news podcasts sold And if you want further 538 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:05,400 Speaker 1: information about this episode, links are in the description.