Speaker 1: Hi, my boris, and this is straight talk sex crime.
Speaker 1: They're the jugions in terms of podcasts. Why are people
Speaker 1: so obsessed.
Speaker 2: With the sex or the crime. I'm not going to
Speaker 2: explain to you why they're obsessed.
Speaker 1: They're still had crime. Then, Gary Dribbling Gerbs working too
Speaker 1: straight talk mate.
Speaker 2: You know, people would say an obsession, but if you
Speaker 2: put your hand up to run murder investigations, you should
Speaker 2: be obsessed. Quite often, I've been asked by people, how
Speaker 2: do you keep going on the investigation for twenty years.
Speaker 2: I look to the families of the victim and say,
Speaker 2: they're the ones that drive me. I would joke, but
Speaker 2: I'm not joking that when my relationships were in a
Speaker 2: good place, it was a bad time for the crooks
Speaker 2: because I had more time to concentrate on doing police work.
Speaker 1: Gary Dribbling Jerbs working too Straight talk? Mate? Hello, Mark,
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me on fucking a long time since
Speaker 1: coming here, mate, Like, I don't know what the deal is.
Speaker 1: How many takeingds along for you, you and I to
Speaker 1: get together.
Speaker 2: I don't know. We've been a little bit busy, a
Speaker 2: few things going on both sides, but I'm glad I'm
Speaker 2: here in.
Speaker 1: There I never got that rematch with you, mate, because.
Speaker 2: That's where it stems from.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I never got the rematch with that, and I
Speaker 1: have to tell everybody. Garry and I jumped in the
Speaker 1: ring some years ago, and at that stage I was undefeated.
Speaker 1: When I was ambassador New South was police Boxing and
Speaker 1: the commission at the time was Mick full And Mick
Speaker 1: Fuller come out to me just before we are about
Speaker 1: to get it on and he said, I hope he
Speaker 1: fucking kills you. And that sort of rocked me a
Speaker 1: little bit before about getting the ring with him, and
Speaker 1: he can fight this blake. So and he won. He
Speaker 1: won the match fair and square and good on your mate.
Speaker 2: Well just on that mark. It was a good night
Speaker 2: and a lot of money was raised for charity. And
Speaker 2: I know you've been a big sponsor of police boxing.
Speaker 2: I did feel guilty in taking victory on that night,
Speaker 2: but as we know, it could could have gone either way.
Speaker 1: You got a standing eight on me, You clocked me
Speaker 1: real good. You put a big right hand on me.
Speaker 1: I remember it and I thought, fuck this, I'm going
Speaker 1: to go and score up God. I remember grabbing hold
Speaker 1: of there's an old thing, Jeff, and good made of
Speaker 1: both of ours, but Jeff taught me. He said, so
Speaker 1: I grabbed hold of your left arm and I remember
Speaker 1: you you brace, and I thought I'd just give him
Speaker 1: a quick twist. I gave you a quick twist just
Speaker 1: for the sake. But it was a good night, and
Speaker 1: we do look after police legacy, and it's important to
Speaker 1: look after police legacy. Gary. I don't want talk about
Speaker 1: AY podcasts just yet, because you know you have a
Speaker 1: very successful podcast and you've had lots of successful shows.
Speaker 1: We'll come back to that second. But you were a
Speaker 1: policeman for a long time and something that I was
Speaker 1: getting told when you were prepping me, I was getting
Speaker 1: told things like this bloke to meet you is obsessed
Speaker 1: as an individual, and he was telling me that he's
Speaker 1: training at all sorts of hours, getting up at different
Speaker 1: times at times and I jumping, hitting a bag or
Speaker 1: whatever you're doing. And I thought, wow, he's an interesting character.
Speaker 1: And I probably didn't take it serious enough. But you
Speaker 1: have you always been as no matter what you're undertaking,
Speaker 1: is particularly when you're a policeman, been an obsessive sort
Speaker 1: of person in that I don't know, I don't mean
Speaker 1: in a six sort of way, but in a sense
Speaker 1: that I've got to do the best job I possibly can.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's fair to say. I think it's
Speaker 2: probably instilled into me from my father that was always
Speaker 2: pushing me as a hard man, always pushing me to
Speaker 2: go harder and further. I don't think I'm naturally talented
Speaker 2: at any one thing, but what they can do is
Speaker 2: really apply myself and commit to it. So, you know,
Speaker 2: using the boxing as an example, Okay, I've got a
Speaker 2: fight coming up, I'm going to get myself as prepared
Speaker 2: as I can be and don't take shortcuts. That certainly
Speaker 2: worked for the police to people often said, like the naysayers,
Speaker 2: he's too passionate and all that, I think just lazy
Speaker 2: people say that. I think you've got to have passion
Speaker 2: for what you're doing, especially the majority of my career
Speaker 2: is homicide detective. But yeah, driven do those around me
Speaker 2: pay the price? Yeah? They do. And this is you know,
Speaker 2: I can reflect back and look at things that the
Speaker 2: mistakes I've made with people that were close to me
Speaker 2: because I was focused on what I was doing, and
Speaker 2: homicide investigation is very hard not to really buy into it.
Speaker 2: You're on a case, so everything else falls by the wayside,
Speaker 2: and you've got to pick up the pieces afterwards.
Speaker 1: I mean, a lot of cops that I've known. You know,
Speaker 1: these guys as well as I do. They retire early
Speaker 1: and sometimes, you know, they call it stress or whatever
Speaker 1: the case may be. But it doesn't matter retire really
Speaker 1: because the job does get to them. How is it,
Speaker 1: or maybe it did, How is it never really got
Speaker 1: to you?
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I suppose others will say it has. I
Speaker 2: always maintained the balance, or tried to maintain the balance.
Speaker 2: And long time ago, twenty five years or so, I
Speaker 2: was got into martial arts, but I also got into meditation, yoga,
Speaker 2: and a thing a practice called chigun, and I think
Speaker 2: that helped me. That helped me keep a baltance. And
Speaker 2: I relied on that. And it's not that I practiced
Speaker 2: every day, and it didn't make me the most sen
Speaker 2: person in the world, but it made me have something
Speaker 2: in my back pocket that I could go to when
Speaker 2: I was feeling the stress. I also maintained physical fitness
Speaker 2: and boxing. Boxing is a great suade of taking the
Speaker 2: pressures of the day away because you're not worried about
Speaker 2: anything else other than trying not to get kicked or
Speaker 2: hit in the head. So yeah, I balanced it out
Speaker 2: that way. But yeah, I've been fortunate and I've had
Speaker 2: I've had friends that have burnt out and you can
Speaker 2: see it and it comes as a shock. You think
Speaker 2: that is the last person I would have thought put
Speaker 2: their hand up and say I've had enough. But it
Speaker 2: just hits people in different ways. And yeah, I carry
Speaker 2: some of the some of the demons from the time
Speaker 2: in the cops, especially working homicide. But I just I
Speaker 2: don't know, just my mantra is just take the next
Speaker 2: step forward, just keep moving forward.
Speaker 1: And there's nothing wrong, by the way with admitting a
Speaker 1: burnt out either made it both our ar and Clark.
Speaker 1: I mean Clarke, he's yeah, great, but a tough guy,
Speaker 1: saw a lot of stuff in his days, you know,
Speaker 1: sort of got to him in the end. I mean,
Speaker 1: and he'd be the first a minute. I'm not saying
Speaker 1: in the out of school here, but Clark, he just
Speaker 1: saw so much and put up with so much, and
Speaker 1: then you can't keep storing it for your whole life.
Speaker 1: And and by the way, outlets like training exercise, I
Speaker 1: know you still train earlier mentioned earlier to me that
Speaker 1: you know you're still doing five days a week training
Speaker 1: Johnny Lewis down at Urka. We won't say the location
Speaker 1: because we don't want to let anybody know who's probably
Speaker 1: out there who doesn't like you. Perhaps you left left
Speaker 1: a few of those and you wait, so we're not
Speaker 1: going to say where. But but you know, you still train.
Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, it's not just training,
Speaker 1: it's not just meditating or doing the yoga. Perhaps I
Speaker 1: don't think it's that. I think there's more to it.
Speaker 1: I think it's about understanding what it is you've been
Speaker 1: doing and why you've been doing and what the purpose
Speaker 1: it is why you do it. So maybe you just
Speaker 1: helped me out here. Obviously I'm not a competent. I've
Speaker 1: been a compet What is it that Gary Jubilan has
Speaker 1: done that has allowed him not to go nuts?
Speaker 2: Having purpose? Like, having purpose is something that's important I
Speaker 2: get when I'm working a homicide investigation. My whole career
Speaker 2: is litered with families that I've become close with because
Speaker 2: of the intensity of a homicide investigation. They drive me
Speaker 2: quite often. I've been asked by people. They might say,
Speaker 2: how do you keep going on investigation for twenty years
Speaker 2: I look to the families of the victim and say,
Speaker 2: they're the ones that drive me and push me forward.
Speaker 2: So it felt to me and this might I just
Speaker 2: try to explain this in the best way. It made
Speaker 2: me feel good about myself in that other aspects of
Speaker 2: my life might be perfect, but I'm doing good work
Speaker 2: every day I come to work, and yeah, you and
Speaker 2: I have spoken about it. Relationships. I've had a couple
Speaker 2: of marriage has breaken relationships. They're they're all the collateral damage,
Speaker 2: I think. But where I hid from all the chaos
Speaker 2: that was going in my private life was just to
Speaker 2: throw myself in the work. And I can remember being
Speaker 2: a Christmas Day going in the office because I didn't
Speaker 2: want to face the chaos. It was my life at
Speaker 2: the time.
Speaker 1: So that's funny that you said, because sometimes we make
Speaker 1: ourselves busy. There's a bit of an avoidance habit, avoiding
Speaker 1: what it is I don't want to confront yep or
Speaker 1: what I'm not enjoying. And when you're on a murder case,
Speaker 1: it's easy to justify that. You can say, look, look,
Speaker 1: you've got a murder.
Speaker 2: You can you can hide behind it. And I'm mindful
Speaker 2: of that, and I think there's been occasions where you, Yeah,
Speaker 2: there is times when I think, look, okay, everything else
Speaker 2: is falling apart, but just keep focusing on the on
Speaker 2: the job you've got. I would joke, but I'm not
Speaker 2: joking that it's the reality. When my relationships were in
Speaker 2: a good place, it was a bad time for the
Speaker 2: crooks because I had more time to concentrate on the
Speaker 2: doing police work not the most healthiest way to live
Speaker 2: your life. But I think at least I had I
Speaker 2: wasn't aware, I was aware of it. I knew what
Speaker 2: I was doing and that had control of it.
Speaker 1: And would you would you have said then and hopefully now,
Speaker 1: but irrespective of maybe it had a negative effect on
Speaker 1: you in terms of what other things you're doing, relationships, etc.
Speaker 1: Would you say that, ultimately though, your purpose was a
Speaker 1: good purpose none less like I am trying to catch
Speaker 1: a killer for this family who has suffered the death
Speaker 1: and their family of what this killer or this perpetrator.
Speaker 1: When I've done, is that the good purpose?
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that makes me feel like I'm doing some good.
Speaker 2: I'm doing something worthwhile. That was what I was getting
Speaker 2: back from the hours that I put in on the job.
Speaker 2: And working hard. And you know, people would say it's
Speaker 2: an obsession, but if you put your hand up to
Speaker 2: run murder investigations, you should be obsessed. And if you're
Speaker 2: going to do it and treat it like a nine five,
Speaker 2: get out of there and let someone that's prepared to
Speaker 2: make the sacrifices. We're not mucking around when someone's been killed.
Speaker 2: We need to find out who killed that person. And
Speaker 2: it's as real as real can get.
Speaker 1: It's funny, you know when in birth of you and
Speaker 1: I know number of commissioners who a number of whom
Speaker 1: I was doing the fighting for them for many years,
Speaker 1: and a lot of you get to meet and they'd say,
Speaker 1: why are you the ambassador? And I used to get
Speaker 1: asked this way, thembassador and yourself, police boxing and legacy,
Speaker 1: police legacy, and and I want to ask you this question.
Speaker 1: My response, generally speaking, was that police, the reward for
Speaker 1: risk for cops is not a fair equation relative to
Speaker 1: what everybody else in the country does. So the amount
Speaker 1: of money you get paid and the accolades you get
Speaker 1: and the sense of response responsibility you get from the
Speaker 1: risk you take every single day private life risk, the
Speaker 1: risk you take in relation to your families. You could
Speaker 1: get anything can happen. The reward risk formula is wrong. Therefore,
Speaker 1: I feel as a citizen that I should be giving
Speaker 1: something back to the police. And I've got maids and
Speaker 1: now I've got family who are coppers, et cetera. Why
Speaker 1: do police take this unfair reward versus risk transaction?
Speaker 2: I think, And let me clarify, because with the police,
Speaker 2: there are some police that, yeah, I think they're taking
Speaker 2: this all for a ride, definitely, and like with those
Speaker 2: and that's where I get. You know, if you say police,
Speaker 2: we deserve more money, and that yeah, a large percentage
Speaker 2: of police deserve more money because they actually live and
Speaker 2: breed the job. But it's a public service, and I
Speaker 2: learned I always saw the joked about oh it's a
Speaker 2: public service mentality and put public servants down. That was
Speaker 2: until I had a conversation with Margaret Kneen, the senior
Speaker 2: Crown prosecutor now a defense barrister, and I asked, Margaret,
Speaker 2: why are you working for the DPP when if you
Speaker 2: went to private you learned three times as much and
Speaker 2: blah blah blah. She said, I hear, and I enjoy
Speaker 2: serving the public, and that sort of that flipped my
Speaker 2: thinking to a degree that there is a noble thing
Speaker 2: in being a public servant and serving the public. And
Speaker 2: I think most police join it for a thousand different reasons.
Speaker 2: But the ones that become good at it know that
Speaker 2: they're doing some good every day they turn up for
Speaker 2: work because it is a very rewarding job. Like thirty
Speaker 2: four years in the cops, I can't recall having the
Speaker 2: day off sick in that thirty four years, and I
Speaker 2: loved every day I came to work. So, yeah, it's
Speaker 2: got a lot going for it, these benefits to it.
Speaker 1: Do you think there's It's a tough question, but do
Speaker 1: you think there's a lot of difference between the character
Speaker 1: of a policeman versus a criminal? Yeah, well, apart from
Speaker 1: the outcomes. I mean, like criminals are doing something it's
Speaker 1: socially unacceptable. I get that part, But do you think
Speaker 1: there's much different between the characters. You know that the
Speaker 1: cops just doing his best, the criminals just doing his best. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it might and it might be not socially acceptable, but
Speaker 1: is in much difference.
Speaker 2: Look, the career criminals, I can sit down and have
Speaker 2: a conversation with them, and I've been fortunate. Since I've
Speaker 2: left the police, I've had a lot of people who
Speaker 2: have become close to that were in their day notorious criminals.
Speaker 2: We do have a commonality between us, and they understand
Speaker 2: where I'm coming from that I understand where they're coming from.
Speaker 2: I respect crooks, and obviously there's certain crimes that you
Speaker 2: wouldn't spit.
Speaker 1: On the person that's done are unacceptable.
Speaker 2: But I respect the way that they go about their business.
Speaker 2: It doesn't mean I agree with them. I respect that
Speaker 2: they some of them, some of the hard crooks, have
Speaker 2: a moral code that they stick to, and I respect
Speaker 2: people that are not hypocritical in the saying they do
Speaker 2: one thing but do the other. So yeah, I think
Speaker 2: there's definitely definitely a connection between the cops and the crooks.
Speaker 2: And quite often it's just a sliding door moment. Why
Speaker 2: has this person turned into a crook and why has
Speaker 2: that person turned into a cop? And then they meet again.
Speaker 2: So I've had some fun catch ups with people that
Speaker 2: I was chasing throughout my career, past career.
Speaker 1: It's funny. I don't know, if you ever come across
Speaker 1: this guy, he might be too young. How old are
Speaker 1: you now in your fifties sixty sixty, Well you might
Speaker 1: know this guy. It was a very well known criminal,
Speaker 1: barrassy guy called Patrick Costello. I know the name Pacastello
Speaker 1: was around with the Chris Murphy days, right, even Chris
Speaker 1: Uster sort of you know. And they're both defense lawyers,
Speaker 1: but usually in those days at the lower courts, because
Speaker 1: they were sort of making I'm going back in the
Speaker 1: seventies and eighties, and yeah, they were. And I used
Speaker 1: always say about Pat passed away unfortunate, but I used
Speaker 1: to say about pack Costello, if Pat hadn't have been
Speaker 1: a great barras, he would have been a great gangster. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I didn't see. And he represents a lot of
Speaker 1: crooks and in those days, and some of whom were
Speaker 1: mates of mine, Boyce I grew up with, and I
Speaker 1: and I in those days, we briefed me a few
Speaker 1: times when I was at law for them. So and
Speaker 1: so I got to known very well, very very well.
Speaker 1: In fact, me and I had his wife and her
Speaker 1: best friend. She was my girlfriend and he's married this
Speaker 1: girl and said hang out together. But I also, I
Speaker 1: say to myself, Pat was like just within a whisker
Speaker 1: of not being a great criminal and there wasn't that
Speaker 1: much difference between the barrister or the law. And you
Speaker 1: know what is an officer of the court, which is
Speaker 1: what the coppers are effectively, You're an officer of the
Speaker 1: government versus the criminal. And the sort of characteristics I'm
Speaker 1: talking about were they were smart, they were extraordinarily resilient.
Speaker 1: He was they are They are in incredibly creative in
Speaker 1: the ways they keep ahead of the law the crooks,
Speaker 1: and the law is incredibly creative in the way they
Speaker 1: try to catch the crooks. They all have big personalities,
Speaker 1: not all of them, but a lot of them have
Speaker 1: big personalities. And then they have hierarchies. There's politics within
Speaker 1: the copps. There's a lot of politics, as you know
Speaker 1: very well, very well, but there's politics within the criminal
Speaker 1: environment to the criminal milieus. And is that something that
Speaker 1: sort of when you decided to do your podcast, I
Speaker 1: Catch Killers, is that something that became bleedingly even more
Speaker 1: obvious to you than ever in the past.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think if when I started the I Catch
Speaker 2: Killers podcast, the focus was going to be cops talking
Speaker 2: about cases they've done, that's got a you can only
Speaker 2: do that so much so often. And I thought, well,
Speaker 2: if I want to take people in the world of crime,
Speaker 2: the world of crime that I really know and understand.
Speaker 2: It's three hundred.
Speaker 1: And sixty degrees.
Speaker 2: And so I started bringing in some crooks that I've
Speaker 2: dealt with before, and Biky's and all sorts of things,
Speaker 2: plus the witnesses, so people listening to the podcast would
Speaker 2: get an understanding of what this whole world was about,
Speaker 2: not just the one dimensional good guys bad guys. And
Speaker 2: you hear the stories of some of the some of
Speaker 2: the bad guys their upbringing or things that happened in
Speaker 2: their life. I'd be a bad guy if that happened
Speaker 2: to me. Yeah, So I take out the judgment of it,
Speaker 2: but yeah, I think it to explore and understand the
Speaker 2: world crime as I understood it, because it's a murky world.
Speaker 2: It's a dark world, but you find some light in
Speaker 2: that darkness with some of the people.
Speaker 1: It's definitely not a simple world either. So we're both
Speaker 1: made of Russell Manzon. Russell's been shining light on trauma
Speaker 1: that a lot of criminals have suffered, like lifetime criminals
Speaker 1: you have suffered when there've been younger men at the
Speaker 1: hands of institutional institutions. So they have had either suffered
Speaker 1: institutional sexual abuse or institutional violence or both at younger age.
Speaker 1: I'm talking you from teenagers up into incarceration, and then
Speaker 1: a lot of these guys they're just getting incarcerated, they
Speaker 1: get out, then they go back and commit the same crimes,
Speaker 1: and there's a commonality that there's a common denominator with
Speaker 1: a lot of the people he talks about, including himself.
Speaker 1: By the way, do you think now that you're out
Speaker 1: of the cops, do you think to yourself sometimes, Wow,
Speaker 1: these guys are guilty of the crime, but they're not
Speaker 1: really guilty societally because to something, since society is a
Speaker 1: bit responsible for what's happened.
Speaker 2: I do have that view now, Mark, because I've been
Speaker 2: out of the cops for three going on four years.
Speaker 2: When I was in the cops, I didn't really have
Speaker 2: time to think the while or how I'd be given
Speaker 2: the case. I'd work the case, try and find the
Speaker 2: person responsible for the crime, put them before the courts,
Speaker 2: and then move on to the next one. So I
Speaker 2: didn't if I I think Russell was robbing banks when
Speaker 2: I was in the toil up squad around our area,
Speaker 2: so I was probably looking for Russell at certain times,
Speaker 2: but I wasn't concerned about what their upbringing was at
Speaker 2: the time. I had to My role was to find
Speaker 2: out who has been committing these crimes. Since I've stepped
Speaker 2: away from the cops, I've got a bit more clear
Speaker 2: air and I can look at it. Okay, why did
Speaker 2: Russell turn out that way? Okay, that's pretty shit. I
Speaker 2: can understand why he's angry, or it was an angry
Speaker 2: young man.
Speaker 1: The same as Morges. Yeah, it's the same deal. Yeah, yeah, different,
Speaker 1: it wasn't sexual, beuce, but it's still the same deal.
Speaker 2: Jeffrey like his story. Jeffrey Morgan grew up an indigenous man,
Speaker 2: grew up around Redfern and talking about you know, when
Speaker 2: you got home, there'd be nine people trying to share
Speaker 2: one mattress and the best you could hope for was
Speaker 2: getting your head on the mattress and stuff like that. So, yeah,
Speaker 2: they've all come from where they haven't got that nurture. Well,
Speaker 2: I won't say they haven't got the nurturing, because there
Speaker 2: were still people that love them, that things happened in
Speaker 2: their life that took their life in a certain path.
Speaker 1: But how when you're in the police and this may
Speaker 1: be a character trade of yours. But how were you
Speaker 1: able to compartmentalize and just say, hang on, I'm a cop,
Speaker 1: I've got a My job is my transaction at the
Speaker 1: moment is I got to catch that particularly that murder
Speaker 1: or that robber. What in the case of be thief,
Speaker 1: I've got to catch that individual and I'm going to
Speaker 1: put get enough evidence put it before the courts of
Speaker 1: the courts can prosecute the particularly individual there's been charged.
Speaker 1: How were you able to compartmentalize that yourself away from
Speaker 1: not thinking about the things that you have been more
Speaker 1: closer to in the last three or four years since
Speaker 1: you've been out of the cops. Did you purposely compartmentalize
Speaker 1: or there's just something naturally happens for all police.
Speaker 2: I let it drift and drift into each part and
Speaker 2: one thing. And I think this helped me in my
Speaker 2: career as a detective. And all the good detectives, the
Speaker 2: ones that I looked up to and the ones that
Speaker 2: I respect, and the ones that are still doing the
Speaker 2: good work now they have this empathy. What makes a
Speaker 2: good detective? I say, empathy is right up there. And
Speaker 2: I've heard all these great detectives drop the same thing.
Speaker 2: What's that about is that sometimes you get confessions from people,
Speaker 2: or you get information from people because you do genuinely care.
Speaker 2: It's not fake, it's not transactional. You care. I would
Speaker 2: get information from people phone me anytime, and my phone
Speaker 2: would phone anytime. I'd run informants. Mate, I will always
Speaker 2: have my phone on me. You called me anytime, they
Speaker 2: might call me at two o'clock every night for a week,
Speaker 2: who knows, but I'd take the calls. So I think
Speaker 2: you've got the way that you get through that. So
Speaker 2: you don't have to good guys bad guys because sometimes
Speaker 2: they've overlapped, but you try to understand where they're all
Speaker 2: coming from. And that helped me in my police and
Speaker 2: that was what I was shown by people I looked
Speaker 2: up to.
Speaker 1: So being in a position where you can take call
Speaker 1: at any time, or preparedness to take call at anytime, in
Speaker 1: other words, access that would eat into your private life
Speaker 1: by time.
Speaker 2: Oh, I just you make me think of how many
Speaker 2: fights I've had about can't you turn the phone off?
Speaker 2: In different different relationships. And I remember getting so many
Speaker 2: phone calls one night just literally sitting up that it
Speaker 2: was pointless to go to bed because I'm going to
Speaker 2: get called, and I'm going to get called. But as
Speaker 2: I said, the type of work I was doing in
Speaker 2: the policing, it was a homicide work. So you've got
Speaker 2: to embrace it. You've got to be ready for it.
Speaker 2: There's little things. I was at home one night, Sunday night.
Speaker 2: It was a phone call at ten o'clock and it
Speaker 2: was a lady who was a victim of a sexual
Speaker 2: assault something fifteen or seventeen years before, and so ten o'clock.
Speaker 2: I hadn't spoken to it for fifteen years, and she
Speaker 2: phoned up and I woke up. It was about ten
Speaker 2: o'clock or whatever. I woke up Sunday night and answer
Speaker 2: the call. And she goes, oh, you probably don't know
Speaker 2: who this is, and she mentioned the name. I go, yeah,
Speaker 2: of course I do. And the thing that she needed
Speaker 2: some advice on something. There was an issue that had occurred.
Speaker 2: The fact that I still remembered who she was and
Speaker 2: cared enough to sit up and talk. I get reward
Speaker 2: in different ways in that it was just a good thing.
Speaker 2: It made me feel like I'm doing the right thing.
Speaker 2: But I didn't realize how much you were on call
Speaker 2: or how much you were a slave to your job
Speaker 2: until I left, And for the first six months, I'm
Speaker 2: looking around thinking why isn't anyone fanning me? Why isn't
Speaker 2: this happening. You don't really realize how deep you've dived
Speaker 2: into that hole until you step away from it.
Speaker 1: Is it addictive?
Speaker 2: I think it is. Mark It's addictive, and it's competitive.
Speaker 2: And you know you are a hunter in effect when
Speaker 2: you're trying to solve a crime. You know the drive.
Speaker 2: You understand that. I'm sure you channel that energy in
Speaker 2: different different areas, but it's almost like a personal challenge.
Speaker 2: It confronts and okay, let's see what happens here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it can confront other people, so colleagues can say, oh,
Speaker 1: fuck him, like I don't like him because he's trying
Speaker 1: to add I mean, I mean the police service is
Speaker 1: a huge, huge, massive business. Like it's a big, big business,
Speaker 1: and you know, sitting at the top of that you
Speaker 1: have commissioners and you have deputies, and you have ac
Speaker 1: is underneathn and then there's a massive hierarchy. It's ridiculously
Speaker 1: big hierarchy, and the politics can nearly divide the police
Speaker 1: force down the middle.
Speaker 2: Oh, it's politics are just disgraceful. The politics down the middle.
Speaker 1: It's like any massive, big organization, and especially when probably
Speaker 1: particularly these days, when everybody's got to say and you
Speaker 1: have to loosen everybody. I mean like culturally we are
Speaker 1: happens in business too, but like culturally, you have to
Speaker 1: listen to what everybody's position is, and everybody now knows
Speaker 1: that and everybody will put their position. Do you have
Speaker 1: any regrets having left the cops.
Speaker 2: Look, I wouldn't want to be in there now. I
Speaker 2: wouldn't trust being in the police for what happened to me,
Speaker 2: and you know, we can just discuss that or whatever
Speaker 2: I was charged with recording conversations. I wouldn't trust an
Speaker 2: organization that turned on me the way that they did,
Speaker 2: and people turned on me for personal vendetta or personal reasons. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I've been called the polarizing person in the cops. I
Speaker 2: find it funny still to this day people talk about, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: I know Gary Jubil and I did this, I did
Speaker 2: that with him, or I told him the bully's head
Speaker 2: in and all that. These are people who haven't even
Speaker 2: met so they're making stories up around me. And I
Speaker 2: challenge anyone to come and speak to me face to
Speaker 2: face and say what they've got to say. I really
Speaker 2: when I say a surprised. I had some people that
Speaker 2: I respect. Soonior Police Nick Caldos, I mentioned his name.
Speaker 2: I don't think he'd be concerned. He spoke to me
Speaker 2: prior to anything blowing up about me and he said,
Speaker 2: just be careful, Jubs. You've got a high profile in
Speaker 2: this organization and they'll try to take you down at
Speaker 2: some stage. It was almost like predicting the future because
Speaker 2: it happened very much that way.
Speaker 1: He's a deputy at the time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and I got a lot of respect for him.
Speaker 2: He was one of the good bosses and just what
Speaker 2: happened to me, without going into the details, there were
Speaker 2: people that were setting personal agendas why I don't know
Speaker 2: why I just turned up and did my job at work,
Speaker 2: and whether they felt threatened by that, whether they felt
Speaker 2: threatened by the informal power balance I had because people
Speaker 2: recognized me as a homicide detective. I've seen that happen
Speaker 2: to others. When it did buy up in New South
Speaker 2: Wales Police and it hit the media and it was
Speaker 2: fed to the media by New South Walle's police. Just
Speaker 2: shamefully just this type of information that was fed to
Speaker 2: the media about me Ron Edles, who's a well known
Speaker 2: ex homicide detective from Victoria, and Charlie Bezina, also the
Speaker 2: homicide high profile homicide detective from Victoria. I hadn't worked
Speaker 2: with them, we knew of each other their work that
Speaker 2: they've done. They both reached out to me and told me, look,
Speaker 2: keep your head up high. This is what happened to us. Say,
Speaker 2: both went through the same type of thing. And it's
Speaker 2: just an organization I think, with the public service or
Speaker 2: the police, they don't like anyone sticking their head above
Speaker 2: the group. If you stick your head above the group,
Speaker 2: people want to pull you down. And I think that's
Speaker 2: part of it.
Speaker 1: Why, I mean, I don't understand why is that why?
Speaker 1: I mean, even if you do stick a head up,
Speaker 1: even if you have a little bit of ego, I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's a bad thing. I mean,
Speaker 1: I mean, unless it sort of gets in the way
Speaker 1: of judgment, perhaps, but that always end up being the
Speaker 1: accusation that people make his ego got in the way
Speaker 1: of judgment.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you're relaying and I hear that and I
Speaker 2: laugh at them. As I would laugh at them to
Speaker 2: their face if they said it to me. I've heard
Speaker 2: those things. An ego was what was my ego? Oh
Speaker 2: that's right. I worked hard and went on some tough jobs.
Speaker 2: Some of the jobs I worked on were high profile.
Speaker 2: That wasn't me just picking jobs because I wanted the profile.
Speaker 2: That was me doing the work. And I know there
Speaker 2: was people that were saying, oh, look, he's sticking his
Speaker 2: head up too high. Why are the media speaking to him?
Speaker 2: Or he loves the media. They were speaking to me
Speaker 2: because I was doing the hard yards, doing the work
Speaker 2: and running running the jobs. And that's what people didn't get.
Speaker 2: And it gets me. I won't say angry, although I'm
Speaker 2: not really hiding it, it does get me a little
Speaker 2: bit angry that people say that my status in the
Speaker 2: cops changed, I think, or the people started to have
Speaker 2: opinions before they didn't know who I was, or unless
Speaker 2: I worked with them. With the Underbelly TV series came
Speaker 2: out Underbelly Badness.
Speaker 1: And the apcial original Underbelly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, in that whole series, and so they build a
Speaker 2: series on Underbelly Badness and made of yours, made of mine.
Speaker 2: Matt Nabel played me and you know that when I
Speaker 2: was in the Cops, and from that time I felt
Speaker 2: like I had a bit of a target on the back.
Speaker 2: Now I didn't give it to Channel nine or whoever
Speaker 2: was screening and go hey, put me on Underbelly. They
Speaker 2: came to Senior Police, and Senior Police said, well, this
Speaker 2: is the toughest job running at the moment. That was
Speaker 2: a job, the murder of Terry Falconer. And so then
Speaker 2: they did the series on that and they portrayed me
Speaker 2: in the private life, professional life and all that.
Speaker 1: I know.
Speaker 2: There was a shift after that because public Servant stuck
Speaker 2: their head up jealousy. I hate saying that mark because
Speaker 2: I sound like a wanker if I go, oh, they're
Speaker 2: just jealous, So I really hold back on that. I'm
Speaker 2: just saying that, like, factually, once you had that recognition,
Speaker 2: I know, and it worked for my favor it worked
Speaker 2: against me. I'd get in the witness box. I know,
Speaker 2: some barrasses go, oh, that's it Underbelly, dude, let's carve
Speaker 2: him up in the witness box. So they go a
Speaker 2: little bit harder and build their reputation that way. But
Speaker 2: it also helped in the profile that I had. If
Speaker 2: you were a crook or a suspect. If I get
Speaker 2: a knock on the door, they're going to get shit
Speaker 2: it's him, and I would use that. I would use that.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I know I polarize people in the cops.
Speaker 2: Some people don't like me because I expected them to
Speaker 2: work on the strike force. And I'll make no apologies
Speaker 2: for that. Like, if they're not going to work, I'm
Speaker 2: going to call them, call them out on it. Other people,
Speaker 2: even if they didn't like me personally, I'm sure they
Speaker 2: respected respected the work that I did.
Speaker 1: If you didn't call it jealousy, we just just put
Speaker 1: down a human nature. Like human nature people, some will
Speaker 1: follow someone who's got a profile, who's been seen as
Speaker 1: being successful through the media, for example, and there will
Speaker 1: be some who won't follow. You can call it polarizing.
Speaker 1: Becau's basically polarizing me. You just split the joint down
Speaker 1: the middle. Whenever you have a brand, and you know,
Speaker 1: Jubilant had a brand. When you in the police force,
Speaker 1: you're going to get some people like it and some
Speaker 1: people don't like it. To me, it's just human nature
Speaker 1: of the organization, the human nature of the total organization,
Speaker 1: especially when it's a big organization. Yeah, it's normal.
Speaker 2: And I and this is again just a theory with
Speaker 2: policing because I wonder because it happens to so many police.
Speaker 2: So you know, I'm not the first, I'm not the last.
Speaker 2: I'll get a profile and get taken down or brought
Speaker 2: down level. This is my theory, Mark, and I haven't
Speaker 2: spoken to a psychologist about it, so it's not based
Speaker 2: on anything. It's just a theory floating around in my head.
Speaker 2: You join the police, you get a badge, you get
Speaker 2: a gun, you get authority, you're the policemen. You walk
Speaker 2: out on the street, you've got power. People even in
Speaker 2: your social circuit circle, Oh that's a cop. He's a cop.
Speaker 2: So your status is elevated above. Yeah, I'm saying above
Speaker 2: the society that you've got power. You've got the power
Speaker 2: to pull your gun and kill someone if you have
Speaker 2: to in the right right charge sense, yeah, or charge them,
Speaker 2: take away the liberty. There's a lot of power that
Speaker 2: goes there, and there's respect that goes there. Then you
Speaker 2: put us all in there together. And so we've got
Speaker 2: an office, open plan, an office of sixty or seven
Speaker 2: people around there. Well, no one's looking at a special
Speaker 2: for being a cop, because we're all cops, so we
Speaker 2: cancel each other out. But then in that group of
Speaker 2: sixty or seventy people, one or two of those people
Speaker 2: rise above the people left there are trying to drag
Speaker 2: them down because they're used to having the authority. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm the cop, and when you're in that organization, you
Speaker 2: stick your head up a little bit higher. Let's drag
Speaker 2: him down or drag her down, because it makes the
Speaker 2: rest of us look poor.
Speaker 1: It's a really interesting analytic or analysis of how the
Speaker 1: police force works. And I've been watching for a long
Speaker 1: long time. I've seen lots of commissioners come and go,
Speaker 1: and I've seen lots of blokes and may up being
Speaker 1: the case with our current commission but get stamped pretty hard,
Speaker 1: well deservingly, undeservingly. And also, people don't forget what happened
Speaker 1: on the way up. So if anything gets a bit wobbly,
Speaker 1: it was up there. You know who's got their profile
Speaker 1: up there. If there's anything wobbly on the way up,
Speaker 1: it tends to get brought up. Yeah, as it gets
Speaker 1: thrown back at him, I'll square up with him.
Speaker 2: And then I think you understand the police. With the
Speaker 2: police that. You know, there's little clicks, little groups and
Speaker 2: all that. If I look back at my career, that's
Speaker 2: probably I won't say a mistake, it's just the way
Speaker 2: I rolled. But I didn't have a click.
Speaker 1: I wasn't beholding You can't be isolated.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I wasn't beholding to anyone or you know.
Speaker 2: I just did my own thing and got to I
Speaker 2: got to the rank of a commissioned officer, chief inspector.
Speaker 2: I was happy there. Some people are thinking, why didn't
Speaker 2: you want to climb higher? I like the work at
Speaker 2: that level. I like to be involved in the investigations.
Speaker 2: That's what I wanted to wanted and that confused people.
Speaker 2: We're thinking, what's it, what's he doing? What's what's this
Speaker 2: all about? And I never really safeguarded myself by being
Speaker 2: in little clicks, so people were beholding to me and
Speaker 2: vice versa. I just was on my own.
Speaker 1: So when you just when you left, you're probably happy.
Speaker 1: When you're left, you probably got a bit of you
Speaker 1: probably got a bit of shock because I remember when
Speaker 1: it happened, and it looked a bit untidy. How did
Speaker 1: you feel like your whole life, your whole life's commitment
Speaker 1: and or purpose was just taken away from a really
Speaker 1: short notice.
Speaker 2: What was a feeling I was gathered and when you
Speaker 2: talk short notice, just quickly to put it in perspective,
Speaker 2: it was on a Tuesday that the professional standards turned
Speaker 2: up executed search warrants. I was taken upstairs, have my
Speaker 2: gun taken off me, my phone's taken off me, blah
Speaker 2: blah blah. Left finished in the building about six o'clock
Speaker 2: and just had nothing and just walked and it was
Speaker 2: just totally totally rocked me. The weekend before that, so
Speaker 2: we're talking to Tuesday. The weekend before that, two police
Speaker 2: officers were shot up near Tamworth. I was flowing up
Speaker 2: there to oversee that investigation. I get back, I come
Speaker 2: back from there.
Speaker 1: Then they were investigating driving incidents.
Speaker 2: This was a different one, a person with firearms that
Speaker 2: they went to a domestic situation. Two police officers shot
Speaker 2: and the offender shot and shot himself. So I oversee that.
Speaker 2: Then I come back to Sydney and then there's a
Speaker 2: murder up at Newcastle. I go up to Newcastle oversee
Speaker 2: the murder investigation up there. Then Tuesday and then Tuesday afternoon.
Speaker 2: From that was my life as in. Yeah, I'll go
Speaker 2: do this, do that too. You're out out of the cops.
Speaker 1: Suspend it or it will finish. Now.
Speaker 2: I wasn't suspended and they could say whatever they want.
Speaker 2: There was no way they could suspend me. It was
Speaker 2: so ridiculous. What the charges? What the charges were? They
Speaker 2: said to me, And a senior police officer at State
Speaker 2: Crime said, oh, Gary, you'll probably go off sick now,
Speaker 2: and just go off sick. And I said, I haven't
Speaker 2: had a sick day in thirty four years. I'm not
Speaker 2: going off sick. I'm turning up. I put my suit on.
Speaker 2: I turned up the next day and they wouldn't let
Speaker 2: me in the homicide office, an officer that have been
Speaker 2: for twenty years. I got shoed out of there like
Speaker 2: it was some annibal lector that just walked into the
Speaker 2: homicide office. Then they put me in a room on
Speaker 2: level nine, which is where all the bosses sit. And
Speaker 2: when I say a room, it was just like a
Speaker 2: cupboard space with a glass tradition, and that's where I
Speaker 2: sat for a couple of months before I just said,
Speaker 2: this is ridiculous. But I turned up every day and
Speaker 2: just sat there. They took me off all the investigations.
Speaker 2: I wasn't allowed to work on any of the investigations
Speaker 2: I was running at the time, and I just sat there,
Speaker 2: and I know people were being told that, people that
Speaker 2: were close to me, saying, they're trying to provoke you
Speaker 2: to do something stupid, snap or whatever. So I sat
Speaker 2: there playing whale and meditation music just to annoy the
Speaker 2: fuck out of them as they walked past, and like
Speaker 2: a cage line that they walk past, and I'd just
Speaker 2: be sitting there playing meditation music and it almost sent
Speaker 2: me insane, but it was my way of sort of
Speaker 2: getting back.
Speaker 1: Do the podcast. How did they come back?
Speaker 2: Well, it's funny how life turns out. I've had When
Speaker 2: I was in the police, people had made approaches to
Speaker 2: me about you, if you leave the cops, you can
Speaker 2: come into the media, and that was quite often. People
Speaker 2: would suggest that I wasn't going to leave the cops.
Speaker 2: I love the cops. That was my passion. When this
Speaker 2: incident happened, I caught up with someone because I worked
Speaker 2: with News Corp. And sixty minutes and just a friend
Speaker 2: of mine, a producer from sixty minutes said you want
Speaker 2: to catch up for a drink? I said, yeah, and
Speaker 2: she said, how's your week, and I've gone, how's my
Speaker 2: fucking week? Because it hadn't hit the media at that stage,
Speaker 2: and she's gone unbelievable. But anyway, that's good because the
Speaker 2: reason I met you is I wanted to see if
Speaker 2: you'd be interested in doing something with sixty minutes. And
Speaker 2: then Claire Harvey at News Corp. I had a meeting
Speaker 2: with her and she spoke about what we could do,
Speaker 2: and so I had quite a few, quite a few offers,
Speaker 2: and I had other people reaching out to do security work,
Speaker 2: that type of thing. So I wasn't short of short
Speaker 2: of options. But then the News Corp one suited me.
Speaker 2: Went with News Corp and signed to do write articles
Speaker 2: and do podcasts.
Speaker 1: Why are people crimes? Sex crime? They're the two big ones. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Like in terms of podcasts especially, why are people so obsessed?
Speaker 1: Like audiences are talking about the sex or the crime.
Speaker 2: I'm not going to explain to you why they're obsessed, Okay,
Speaker 2: we'll talk talk about crime. I think it's a world
Speaker 2: that they don't get to see. That's part of the
Speaker 2: reason I joined the cops. I wanted to see what
Speaker 2: was behind that police tape. That's why I became a detective.
Speaker 2: I'd turn up to the crime scene and I'd see
Speaker 2: the detectives walk in there. That's why I wanted to
Speaker 2: find out what's going on. I think we've all got
Speaker 2: a fascination for crime. We all think that we're detectives
Speaker 2: in our own right that show us the clues, we'll
Speaker 2: explain what's happened. And it's just a world that we
Speaker 2: don't get to see. And it's a world that's you know,
Speaker 2: some people might have a mundane life or just the
Speaker 2: day to day. It takes us out of that day
Speaker 2: to day living and gets the adrenaline running. And I
Speaker 2: think that's what makes me serious.
Speaker 1: Your show started off interviewing who.
Speaker 2: By the type people cops, cops that i'd worked with.
Speaker 2: My first, very first podcast was with Jason Evers. He'd
Speaker 2: been my partner in homicide for ten years. He was
Speaker 2: out of the cops and we Claire's idea, why don't
Speaker 2: we gather a pub, will have it like two blakes
Speaker 2: just talking. The audience will be a fly on the wall.
Speaker 2: And that was the first season. So I got a
Speaker 2: lot of cops doing that. That was good, but I
Speaker 2: had to stop because we were drinking catch up with
Speaker 2: some old cops. We'd start recording the pub at about
Speaker 2: eight o'clock and I'll a beer to make it look
Speaker 2: really sick, and we'd have a beer and then you'd
Speaker 2: finish that. Then they'd have lunchtime. Let's have a beer now,
Speaker 2: and I just I did one season that and said
Speaker 2: no more alcohol, Let's move to a studio, and then
Speaker 2: we looked at There was one in the first season,
Speaker 2: Jaron Badget, an aboriginal lady grew up on the block.
Speaker 2: Bumped into her when I was walking through the city
Speaker 2: kicking stones, and she just left the plat said of
Speaker 2: falling out with the police, And I said, how about
Speaker 2: you come on the come on the podcast. Because she
Speaker 2: joined the cops because she grew up in the block
Speaker 2: in Redfern and didn't want her family treated the way
Speaker 2: she was treated when she was growing up in the block.
Speaker 2: Really interesting person, really interesting perspective. I said, come on
Speaker 2: the podcast. She's gone, I can't. You've got all these
Speaker 2: super cops, you know, all these high profile detectives. I said,
Speaker 2: trust me, come on, and we did her podcast, and
Speaker 2: people just she's saying to this day, people are still
Speaker 2: contacting about her about it, understanding her perspective being an
Speaker 2: aboriginal lady in the police and growing up on the block,
Speaker 2: and that sort of got me to thinking I can
Speaker 2: do more with the podcast. And then we've sort of
Speaker 2: branched out and had a whole whole range of people.
Speaker 2: Try to keep the theme of crime running through because
Speaker 2: mostly there is a connection with the crime, but occasionally
Speaker 2: we just break out because I think if we just
Speaker 2: do crime all the time, it's too dark. Like, Okay,
Speaker 2: I'll get a bloke on that murdered three people. Okay,
Speaker 2: next season we've got someone that's murdered five people. Yeah,
Speaker 2: where does it end? So I'm just trying to give
Speaker 2: it some life in letting people tell their stories.
Speaker 1: What is now You've gone from the college, you just
Speaker 1: get paid a wage. You used to get paid a
Speaker 1: wage every week. Now running your own business, a podcast business,
Speaker 1: and other things you do that sort of surround the
Speaker 1: broadcasting industry. What have you learned about that part of
Speaker 1: your life relative to what it used to be like
Speaker 1: when you used to get a paypack it every month,
Speaker 1: every week, whatever it's.
Speaker 2: I think people that do get a pay packet each
Speaker 2: week should be thankful that they get a pay pack.
Speaker 2: It so public servants or long term secure job because
Speaker 2: it certainly it takes the pressure off and you can
Speaker 2: concentrate on your work now and you're going to get
Speaker 2: paid when Like, I've set up a company and I
Speaker 2: run it as a company, and I had to learn
Speaker 2: all about tax and all stuff completely foreign to me
Speaker 2: because I didn't have to know about it. You know,
Speaker 2: you're on on the policeman's wage. There wasn't much issue
Speaker 2: on tax. Now we're doing funds and different things that
Speaker 2: I've really had to learn. When I learned, I've got
Speaker 2: an accountant that helps me through and set sets things up.
Speaker 2: But that in itself at the level when I left
Speaker 2: as a cop, I was a detective, chief inspector. I
Speaker 2: had a team under me. If I wanted something done,
Speaker 2: could you do this? Could you do that? All of
Speaker 2: a sudden it became me running a business. Where's my stationary?
Speaker 2: I can't say, yeah, a simple things like that, could
Speaker 2: you print that? We haven't got the printer. So I
Speaker 2: had to set up an office. I had to start
Speaker 2: to think a little bit differently. I got to say,
Speaker 2: I'm enjoying it, and I give this advice to people too.
Speaker 2: Working for yourself is very invigorating, and it got to
Speaker 2: the point I was so sort of in the cop mode,
Speaker 2: like I'd be asked to do a talk or asked
Speaker 2: to come on your podcast, I'd have to do a
Speaker 2: report and then the return report report. Now I can
Speaker 2: just make my own decisions, work when I want to work,
Speaker 2: and I'm fortunate that the work's there for me. I
Speaker 2: understand I'd probably look at it a little bit differently
Speaker 2: if I didn't have the work. But I'm enjoying it,
Speaker 2: and I'm enjoying being rewarded for working hard, because sometimes
Speaker 2: in the police they want to pull you down if
Speaker 2: you have some success. I was surprised with the first
Speaker 2: season of the podcast people coming up to me and saying,
Speaker 2: well done, that's great. You know, it's going really well,
Speaker 2: it's charting well, all that sort of stuff, And I'm
Speaker 2: sort of, where's a punchline? Because you wouldn't get that
Speaker 2: in the cops. The cops didn't never gave you a
Speaker 2: pat on the back for doing anything.
Speaker 1: So what's your watch your outut now? In terms of
Speaker 1: I catch killer? So it's one podcast week, one podcast
Speaker 1: a week for that? Yet for that what other things
Speaker 1: you're doing.
Speaker 2: I do a podcast series like in Predatory, which is
Speaker 2: looking at child sexual abuse, breaking badness. When I went
Speaker 2: in the prisons about that, yeah, yeah, this was it
Speaker 2: was a really interesting experience. And this was just last
Speaker 2: year that Corrective Services got in contact with me and
Speaker 2: said would you be interested in doing a podcast at
Speaker 2: the Macquarie Correctional Center up at Wellington. I said, yeah,
Speaker 2: in what form? Well, we're trying something a little bit
Speaker 2: different in the prison. It's a maximum security prison. Will
Speaker 2: give you full access to the prison and you go
Speaker 2: wherever you want, blah blah blah, have a look around
Speaker 2: and you report on what you see in the podcast.
Speaker 1: Form like a series ten episodes. So I think we
Speaker 1: have seven episodes. Seven episodes.
Speaker 2: And so I went into this maximum security prison and
Speaker 2: you could imagine how popular I am. And before I
Speaker 2: went in, you're going through the gates and the metal
Speaker 2: detectors and all that, and I said to Corrective Services
Speaker 2: how are they going to react to me in there?
Speaker 2: And They've gone We've got no idea. I'm thinking, oh Jesus,
Speaker 2: what's going to happen here? So I've walked in and yeah,
Speaker 2: the reaction was as you would expect. The reaction people
Speaker 2: who just snarl at me, people make have a go
Speaker 2: at me, and or other people who just ignored me gradually,
Speaker 2: and it was almost caused all this drama in the prison. Well,
Speaker 2: if he's in here, we're not doing this, We're not
Speaker 2: doing that type situation. And it got to the point
Speaker 2: where I sat down with some of the power breakers
Speaker 2: in the prison, as in the criminals, the inmates, and
Speaker 2: explain what I was doing there. I said, look, what
Speaker 2: they're doing here at Macquarie Center is changing the dynamics
Speaker 2: of the way traditionally people are in prison in that
Speaker 2: they're giving them reward, they're giving them responsibilities, they're giving
Speaker 2: them freedom, They're they're living more like they would on
Speaker 2: the outside in there. And I said, if you Blake
Speaker 2: say this is good, no one's going to listen to
Speaker 2: you because you're the bad guys and people don't care.
Speaker 2: They think you should be breaking rocks and eating bread
Speaker 2: and water. If I as an ex cop that you
Speaker 2: don't like, if I understand you don't like me for
Speaker 2: the position I hold, if I'm saying that works, maybe
Speaker 2: that carries a little bit more weight credit and the credit, yeah,
Speaker 2: it gives it credibility, and on that basis, they let
Speaker 2: me walk around without too many dramas.
Speaker 1: And when you say power brokers, how do you identify them?
Speaker 1: And or does the credit services identify them for you?
Speaker 1: Than the range of meeting way.
Speaker 2: You can I can look around them pretty much pick
Speaker 2: out who's got the power, who has him in by reputation,
Speaker 2: looking reputation there and look and all that. And yeah,
Speaker 2: some of the younger prisoners they would arc up with
Speaker 2: me because they want to make a name for themselves.
Speaker 2: Some of the more seasoned prisoners would they just turn
Speaker 2: their back on me and walk away. That was their statement.
Speaker 2: Others would be bold enough because I wouldn't shake hands
Speaker 2: unless it was offered to me because that can cause dramas.
Speaker 2: And then I know the ones that are prepared to
Speaker 2: come up and shake my hand, they're making a statement. Well,
Speaker 2: they don't give a stuff what other people think. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm in control of the situation here. So it was interesting.
Speaker 2: There was some funny comments and some funny moments. And
Speaker 2: I had were at Wellington Prison, Like there's Macquarie Correctional
Speaker 2: Center and Wellington's a more traditional prison, both maximum security prisons,
Speaker 2: and I'm walking around and someone's yelling or what they're
Speaker 2: going to do to me, and that was very pleasant.
Speaker 2: But yeah, they're funny. They're funny in the way that
Speaker 2: they're saying it, and they're the sort of mob starting
Speaker 2: the form around me and I had I got them
Speaker 2: talking and we started to talk and I said to them, yeah, okay,
Speaker 2: guys here on the platform to what do you need
Speaker 2: in prison? And I'm being genuine like that, and some
Speaker 2: smart ass yells at how about a set of fucking
Speaker 2: keyser doupe? But that type, that type of humor. So
Speaker 2: it was an experience. Mark It was an experience that
Speaker 2: I never thought i'd get, and I enjoyed it. It was,
Speaker 2: you know, a little bit tense at times. I was
Speaker 2: always you know, I didn't want to walk around with
Speaker 2: a swagger that everything's cool, because that would have been
Speaker 2: disrespectful to them. I'm in their environment, so I treated
Speaker 2: them with the respect. And but yeah, I walked into
Speaker 2: the the factory area where they're working on machines and
Speaker 2: I could see two blokes look at me point and
Speaker 2: then another group come and form and I think, oh shit,
Speaker 2: where what what do I do here? I thought I'll
Speaker 2: just go over. Yeah, Hi, Gary Jubilin, you know who
Speaker 2: I am, and they're all standing right around me. Another
Speaker 2: group that were there when I was speaking to a
Speaker 2: group of them, they made the point because I was saying,
Speaker 2: is it working here in the prison in this Macquarie
Speaker 2: Correctional Center, And they made the point, well, do you
Speaker 2: really think you'd get out of here if you're in
Speaker 2: another prison, because they're all sitting around me. And I said,
Speaker 2: in another prison, I wouldn't be sitting in the center
Speaker 2: of a circle. So stuff like that. But all jokes aside,
Speaker 2: I really think they're onto something, and that's something I'm
Speaker 2: really proud of the fact that I can help in
Speaker 2: some way reduce crime by reducing recidivism and getting people
Speaker 2: say they've been in jail, they can come out and
Speaker 2: be a productive member of society. So that's sort of
Speaker 2: the rocking the boat doing that type of stuff. Only
Speaker 2: yesterday I was at being invited to Parliament about a
Speaker 2: restorative justice system, and yeah, it's good that I'm doing
Speaker 2: things that I think are worthwhile.
Speaker 1: Do you think the system is changing that? Because I
Speaker 1: often wonder whether or not prison's actually the right answer
Speaker 1: for a lot of criminals. In fact, I think it
Speaker 1: makes it worse sometimes sometimes you have to. There are
Speaker 1: some prisoners just there's some people who just must be imprisoned.
Speaker 1: They're just total dangers society and to themselves themselves for
Speaker 1: that matter. But largely I don't know if prison really
Speaker 1: works in terms of rehabilitating people or getting people ready
Speaker 1: to rejoin society when they come out. Do you think
Speaker 1: there's now something evolving so much so that Parliament, which
Speaker 1: where it's got to start. Parliament and the public service
Speaker 1: and all those people who administer this is a starting
Speaker 1: to think, well, maybe there's a better way of doing
Speaker 1: this sort of stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do, And I think if it's not working
Speaker 2: because we've got the high rate of receipsism, people go
Speaker 2: in jail, I come out, and then up back in
Speaker 2: jail ridiculously high rate. And I haven't got the figures
Speaker 2: in my head. But if we can break that cycle,
Speaker 2: everyone benefits. Costs money from a fiscal point of view,
Speaker 2: it costs money to have people house in prisons. If
Speaker 2: we can integrate them back in the society, I think
Speaker 2: it's a much better place. And Ken marslu his son
Speaker 2: was murdered, shot in the back of the head with
Speaker 2: a shotgun. Nineteen year old kid working in the pizza hut.
Speaker 2: Ken was angry. This happened about twenty years ago, and
Speaker 2: he wanted the world. He wanted to crack down on crime,
Speaker 2: mandatory sentencing, all that stuff. He's now I had him
Speaker 2: on the podcast, so I got him on the podcast.
Speaker 2: On that Breaking Badness podcast said, Okay, from a victim's
Speaker 2: point of view, he made the point that if you
Speaker 2: reduce crime, you reduce victims. I'm one hundred percent for it.
Speaker 2: If we can make the prison system a better that
Speaker 2: the people come out better than when they went in,
Speaker 2: that's a benefit to everyone, and I agree.
Speaker 1: One other thing is Gary jubilin doing is see you
Speaker 1: did Breaking Badness that they're they're like your special episode series,
Speaker 1: and you did that for the Creational Services Department of
Speaker 1: Correctional Services. You got your own show. I soon recall you.
Speaker 1: You are a host of a let's call it a
Speaker 1: road show with a math you dude, Yeah, yeah, a
Speaker 1: year or so. Goo, what's that about?
Speaker 2: Okay? I it was put to me after when I'm
Speaker 2: out of the cops, like doing the podcast, written two books,
Speaker 2: and it was put to me about doing a live
Speaker 2: tour and what do you mean to do a live tour,
Speaker 2: a live stage shop? And I've gone a look, I'm
Speaker 2: happy where I am. And they came back to me.
Speaker 2: The promoters came back to me and said, look what
Speaker 2: if you did it with your mate Rob Carlton. Rob
Speaker 2: Carlton's the good mate of mine and he's been an actor.
Speaker 2: He's a Kerry Packer, played Kerry Packer LOGI Award winning
Speaker 2: actor and just a fun blake and a good mate.
Speaker 2: Do it with Rob and I going, Okay, let's do
Speaker 2: this tour. So we're playing all the capital cities round
Speaker 2: around the country. Cavid hit or delayed, and we had
Speaker 2: to put it off, put off. It was put off twice,
Speaker 2: and I was quite glad the second time because I thinking,
Speaker 2: why am I putting so much pressure on myself a
Speaker 2: live show? People paying money to come and come and
Speaker 2: see me entertain them. I'm a cop or X cop
Speaker 2: and I'm struggling in my new world. The planets aligned
Speaker 2: and the theaters were opened up again. So I had
Speaker 2: about two weeks before I'm playing at m More Theater,
Speaker 2: sold out m More Theater on a Saturday night, and
Speaker 2: I've gone, Rob, so what are we going to do
Speaker 2: and are we going to sit down Q and a's
Speaker 2: He said, no, stupid, this is a theater. We're going
Speaker 2: to take the audience on the journey. And I've gone farck,
Speaker 2: where do we go here? And we put together a
Speaker 2: show that I'm very proud of it. It's stuff that
Speaker 2: people wouldn't expect. You know, I'm robed When I say
Speaker 2: I'm role playing, I'm playing myself. And Rob pointed that out.
Speaker 2: It can't be that hard. You're playing yourself. He would
Speaker 2: play a crook in certain parts. And it was really
Speaker 2: theater theater. It had laughter, it had tears, that had everything,
Speaker 2: and we toured around the country with it. I was
Speaker 2: like a sponge learning from Rob, like he just knows
Speaker 2: how to hold the stage and all that. So it
Speaker 2: was a great experience. And then on the back of that,
Speaker 2: Michael Francis was Mafia Captain in the Mafia, one of
Speaker 2: the most powerful mafia figures in any heyday in the US.
Speaker 2: He was doing the to her and he asked me
Speaker 2: to host his tour. So I'm doing a few of
Speaker 2: these live shows. I've learnt a lot, Like I was
Speaker 2: so nervous the first night at ed More Theater, and
Speaker 2: Nick for them is my manager. And Nick said, mate,
Speaker 2: you know Nick, and he's gone, it'll be right, It'll
Speaker 2: be right, guarantee, audience love it. Blah blah blah blah blah.
Speaker 2: And that's the last words he says to me before
Speaker 2: we're ready to roll. Rob's in the room next door
Speaker 2: doing sound practicing. I'm shadow boxing. I'm just trying to
Speaker 2: dump all this adrenaline to I'm ready to walk out
Speaker 2: on stage. And then at the end of the show
Speaker 2: standing ovation and Nick came up to me and said, Jesus, mate,
Speaker 2: I was a bit worried. I thought for you deep
Speaker 2: thanks telling me Mark, Look, I really I really enjoyed it.
Speaker 2: I like at different stages in your life, it's good
Speaker 2: to have a challenge. And that was challenging and I
Speaker 2: learned a lot about myself. I learned a lot about
Speaker 2: working in the audience and on the stage, and it's
Speaker 2: given me the confidence to do a lot of other
Speaker 2: things that I think it's helped in a lot of aspects.
Speaker 2: And what haven't you.
Speaker 1: And I just want to finish off on this one.
Speaker 1: But given that you're doing a whole lot of new things,
Speaker 1: or you've done a whole lot of new things for
Speaker 1: your life. In the last four years, You've experienced a
Speaker 1: whole lot of things you never thought you'd experienced before.
Speaker 1: As you said, you're effectively being performer in terms of
Speaker 1: live theater, live a live perform, which is pretty tough.
Speaker 1: But you think you do your podcast, you're a broadcaster.
Speaker 1: You're obviously trying to attract sponsorship so you can so
Speaker 1: you can pay the bills. You got to pay the bills.
Speaker 1: You got to pay yourself. No matter, what is it that,
Speaker 1: given all these new experiences, all these new things you're doing,
Speaker 1: what is it that Gary Jubilan has not let go of?
Speaker 1: What things do you keep doing to keep your feet
Speaker 1: on the ground?
Speaker 2: As in where I am now, I self critique in
Speaker 2: everything I do, Like I always think, Okay, that was good,
Speaker 2: but could it be a little bit better. I'm hard
Speaker 2: on myself, and I hope I I ease up on
Speaker 2: myself to a degree. But I I'm as good as
Speaker 2: my last podcast, I'm as good as my last TV interview.
Speaker 2: Could have I done that better? That type of thing
Speaker 2: that keeps me grounded. I've got mates, old mates that
Speaker 2: kept me grounded when I was a cop, And I
Speaker 2: think That's why I survived policing so long, because I
Speaker 2: didn't hang out with cops. I had my mates that
Speaker 2: bring me back to reality. Yeah, I have friends that
Speaker 2: will go watch this stage show and then I'll catch
Speaker 2: up with ma after and they'll be making fun of
Speaker 2: me and just keep keeping it real, taking the piss
Speaker 2: out of me a little bit. I think that helps.
Speaker 2: I've got more time now to spend with my children
Speaker 2: and my family, which also helps me. I just yeah,
Speaker 2: you mentioned I train with Johnny Lewis. There's a good
Speaker 2: little group that we get together every morning and characters
Speaker 2: from all different walks. So I've got that social thing
Speaker 2: because that's what I lost when I left the cops.
Speaker 2: Like my day was, I'd be speaking to twenty thirty
Speaker 2: people each day, and then that was taken away from me.
Speaker 2: Even when I'm doing the podcast stuff, I've got my
Speaker 2: office set up at home, but quite often, if i
Speaker 2: haven't got a guest or whatever, I've just got to
Speaker 2: motivate myself the whole time. And yeah, sometimes that lounge
Speaker 2: looks good. I'm okay play on the lounge and have
Speaker 2: a sleep, But I try to regulate it. And when
Speaker 2: I walk into that room, and shut the door. That's
Speaker 2: work time, so that that gives me that structure in
Speaker 2: life and that helps me stay balanced. But look, my
Speaker 2: life is a journey. I'm still on the journey. I'm
Speaker 2: all over the place on things. I just I do
Speaker 2: things that interest me. What I'm doing now is interesting me.
Speaker 2: It's challenging me, and like I'm enjoying it.
Speaker 1: I really going to appreciate. I really appreciate similar to
Speaker 1: you that my my podcast life is since I started
Speaker 1: eight years ago. My god, we first started podcasting my
Speaker 1: every first podcast, we had six people in the studio.
Speaker 1: I don't know what I was thinking. It was a
Speaker 1: half hour podcast. I was trying to do six people
Speaker 1: at once. And we've evolved over a long period of time.
Speaker 1: But most of the time we're just scrambling, not really
Speaker 1: knowing what the fuck we're doing. There's no guidebook for
Speaker 1: any of this shit. You just you know, maybe Joe
Speaker 1: Rogan or someone that, but their audiences we go through
Speaker 1: a mean people live in Merriica. We don't have that here.
Speaker 1: So it's an interesting process for me. It's just like
Speaker 1: it has been few and I have to say that
Speaker 1: I'm obsessed with crime. I'm obsessed with criminals. I'm obsessed
Speaker 1: with policing. I'm obsessed with who done it? So I
Speaker 1: love who Done It, whether it's a real life who
Speaker 1: Done It? Or even if it's a movie or that's
Speaker 1: what I love to watch on Netflix, Who Done It?
Speaker 1: I think you live in your business world. You live
Speaker 1: in a world which a lot of people would be
Speaker 1: jealous of. I mean a lot of people would love
Speaker 1: those that world. But I have to tell you, Gary, mate,
Speaker 1: I'm filthy that you left the cops and didn't get
Speaker 1: my rematch. And the other thing that I'm filthy on
Speaker 1: is that Maddie Nabel, who, by the way, God rests
Speaker 1: brother who recently died from motor neurone disease. And we're
Speaker 1: sorry Maddie for that new family's loss. But he coming
Speaker 1: to me three weeks before, I was having a coffee
Speaker 1: up the road and he coming to me three week
Speaker 1: saidfore we were due to fight. And he said to me,
Speaker 1: I'm going to come watch a fight. And I thought cool,
Speaker 1: because I've known many for many years. I thought he's
Speaker 1: going to watch me and I said yeah, I said,
Speaker 1: you know the bloke and fighting because I didn't really
Speaker 1: know you. And he said, yeah. Yeah, he's a good
Speaker 1: friend of mine. And he said, I played him in
Speaker 1: the series. And he said, and I said, I really,
Speaker 1: he said, you come to watch. Yeah, he's I rootin
Speaker 1: from me. He said, I mean, I'm going to be
Speaker 1: effectively in his court, not in your corner, but like
Speaker 1: you know, behind you. And I said, fuck, like thanks, Maddie,
Speaker 1: Like I was actually devastated. Man, I'll be honest, I
Speaker 1: was really filthy.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, sorry about that.
Speaker 1: That's all right, mate, and I don't worry. But I
Speaker 1: just that made it more so that I wanted to rematch.
Speaker 1: And but you left the police timely because I know
Speaker 1: basically the vitalizing you did not want to remake.
Speaker 2: Are you suggesting fake nor lists? Yes.
Speaker 1: But the good thing about it is I'm happy about
Speaker 1: it because look what you've done for yourself. You've turned
Speaker 1: yourself in a great broadcast, that you've got a great podcast,
Speaker 1: you're you're you're right up there in terms of most
Speaker 1: listened to shows. You do a great live show. And
Speaker 1: I'm really happy to learning about yourself and learning about
Speaker 1: a different type of life and enjoying it at the
Speaker 1: same time and making a quid.
Speaker 2: Thanks, mate, Jesus