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Speaker 1: Hi, my boris, and this is straight talk sex crime.

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Speaker 1: They're the jugions in terms of podcasts. Why are people

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Speaker 1: so obsessed.

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Speaker 2: With the sex or the crime. I'm not going to

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Speaker 2: explain to you why they're obsessed.

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Speaker 1: They're still had crime. Then, Gary Dribbling Gerbs working too

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Speaker 1: straight talk mate.

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Speaker 2: You know, people would say an obsession, but if you

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Speaker 2: put your hand up to run murder investigations, you should

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Speaker 2: be obsessed. Quite often, I've been asked by people, how

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Speaker 2: do you keep going on the investigation for twenty years.

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Speaker 2: I look to the families of the victim and say,

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Speaker 2: they're the ones that drive me. I would joke, but

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Speaker 2: I'm not joking that when my relationships were in a

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Speaker 2: good place, it was a bad time for the crooks

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Speaker 2: because I had more time to concentrate on doing police work.

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Speaker 1: Gary Dribbling Jerbs working too Straight talk? Mate? Hello, Mark,

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Speaker 1: Thanks for having me on fucking a long time since

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Speaker 1: coming here, mate, Like, I don't know what the deal is.

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Speaker 1: How many takeingds along for you, you and I to

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Speaker 1: get together.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. We've been a little bit busy, a

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Speaker 2: few things going on both sides, but I'm glad I'm

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Speaker 2: here in.

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Speaker 1: There I never got that rematch with you, mate, because.

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Speaker 2: That's where it stems from.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I never got the rematch with that, and I

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Speaker 1: have to tell everybody. Garry and I jumped in the

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Speaker 1: ring some years ago, and at that stage I was undefeated.

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Speaker 1: When I was ambassador New South was police Boxing and

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Speaker 1: the commission at the time was Mick full And Mick

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Speaker 1: Fuller come out to me just before we are about

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Speaker 1: to get it on and he said, I hope he

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Speaker 1: fucking kills you. And that sort of rocked me a

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Speaker 1: little bit before about getting the ring with him, and

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Speaker 1: he can fight this blake. So and he won. He

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Speaker 1: won the match fair and square and good on your mate.

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Speaker 2: Well just on that mark. It was a good night

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Speaker 2: and a lot of money was raised for charity. And

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Speaker 2: I know you've been a big sponsor of police boxing.

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Speaker 2: I did feel guilty in taking victory on that night,

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Speaker 2: but as we know, it could could have gone either way.

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Speaker 1: You got a standing eight on me, You clocked me

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Speaker 1: real good. You put a big right hand on me.

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Speaker 1: I remember it and I thought, fuck this, I'm going

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Speaker 1: to go and score up God. I remember grabbing hold

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Speaker 1: of there's an old thing, Jeff, and good made of

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Speaker 1: both of ours, but Jeff taught me. He said, so

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Speaker 1: I grabbed hold of your left arm and I remember

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Speaker 1: you you brace, and I thought I'd just give him

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Speaker 1: a quick twist. I gave you a quick twist just

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Speaker 1: for the sake. But it was a good night, and

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Speaker 1: we do look after police legacy, and it's important to

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Speaker 1: look after police legacy. Gary. I don't want talk about

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Speaker 1: AY podcasts just yet, because you know you have a

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Speaker 1: very successful podcast and you've had lots of successful shows.

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Speaker 1: We'll come back to that second. But you were a

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Speaker 1: policeman for a long time and something that I was

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Speaker 1: getting told when you were prepping me, I was getting

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Speaker 1: told things like this bloke to meet you is obsessed

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Speaker 1: as an individual, and he was telling me that he's

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Speaker 1: training at all sorts of hours, getting up at different

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Speaker 1: times at times and I jumping, hitting a bag or

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Speaker 1: whatever you're doing. And I thought, wow, he's an interesting character.

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Speaker 1: And I probably didn't take it serious enough. But you

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Speaker 1: have you always been as no matter what you're undertaking,

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Speaker 1: is particularly when you're a policeman, been an obsessive sort

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Speaker 1: of person in that I don't know, I don't mean

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Speaker 1: in a six sort of way, but in a sense

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Speaker 1: that I've got to do the best job I possibly can.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's fair to say. I think it's

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Speaker 2: probably instilled into me from my father that was always

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Speaker 2: pushing me as a hard man, always pushing me to

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Speaker 2: go harder and further. I don't think I'm naturally talented

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Speaker 2: at any one thing, but what they can do is

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Speaker 2: really apply myself and commit to it. So, you know,

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Speaker 2: using the boxing as an example, Okay, I've got a

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Speaker 2: fight coming up, I'm going to get myself as prepared

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Speaker 2: as I can be and don't take shortcuts. That certainly

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Speaker 2: worked for the police to people often said, like the naysayers,

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Speaker 2: he's too passionate and all that, I think just lazy

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Speaker 2: people say that. I think you've got to have passion

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Speaker 2: for what you're doing, especially the majority of my career

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Speaker 2: is homicide detective. But yeah, driven do those around me

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Speaker 2: pay the price? Yeah? They do. And this is you know,

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Speaker 2: I can reflect back and look at things that the

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Speaker 2: mistakes I've made with people that were close to me

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Speaker 2: because I was focused on what I was doing, and

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Speaker 2: homicide investigation is very hard not to really buy into it.

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Speaker 2: You're on a case, so everything else falls by the wayside,

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Speaker 2: and you've got to pick up the pieces afterwards.

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Speaker 1: I mean, a lot of cops that I've known. You know,

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Speaker 1: these guys as well as I do. They retire early

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Speaker 1: and sometimes, you know, they call it stress or whatever

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Speaker 1: the case may be. But it doesn't matter retire really

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Speaker 1: because the job does get to them. How is it,

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Speaker 1: or maybe it did, How is it never really got

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Speaker 1: to you?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I suppose others will say it has. I

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Speaker 2: always maintained the balance, or tried to maintain the balance.

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Speaker 2: And long time ago, twenty five years or so, I

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Speaker 2: was got into martial arts, but I also got into meditation, yoga,

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Speaker 2: and a thing a practice called chigun, and I think

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Speaker 2: that helped me. That helped me keep a baltance. And

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Speaker 2: I relied on that. And it's not that I practiced

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Speaker 2: every day, and it didn't make me the most sen

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Speaker 2: person in the world, but it made me have something

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Speaker 2: in my back pocket that I could go to when

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Speaker 2: I was feeling the stress. I also maintained physical fitness

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Speaker 2: and boxing. Boxing is a great suade of taking the

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Speaker 2: pressures of the day away because you're not worried about

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Speaker 2: anything else other than trying not to get kicked or

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Speaker 2: hit in the head. So yeah, I balanced it out

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Speaker 2: that way. But yeah, I've been fortunate and I've had

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Speaker 2: I've had friends that have burnt out and you can

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Speaker 2: see it and it comes as a shock. You think

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Speaker 2: that is the last person I would have thought put

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Speaker 2: their hand up and say I've had enough. But it

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Speaker 2: just hits people in different ways. And yeah, I carry

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Speaker 2: some of the some of the demons from the time

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Speaker 2: in the cops, especially working homicide. But I just I

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Speaker 2: don't know, just my mantra is just take the next

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Speaker 2: step forward, just keep moving forward.

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Speaker 1: And there's nothing wrong, by the way with admitting a

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Speaker 1: burnt out either made it both our ar and Clark.

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Speaker 1: I mean Clarke, he's yeah, great, but a tough guy,

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Speaker 1: saw a lot of stuff in his days, you know,

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Speaker 1: sort of got to him in the end. I mean,

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Speaker 1: and he'd be the first a minute. I'm not saying

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Speaker 1: in the out of school here, but Clark, he just

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Speaker 1: saw so much and put up with so much, and

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Speaker 1: then you can't keep storing it for your whole life.

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Speaker 1: And and by the way, outlets like training exercise, I

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Speaker 1: know you still train earlier mentioned earlier to me that

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Speaker 1: you know you're still doing five days a week training

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Speaker 1: Johnny Lewis down at Urka. We won't say the location

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Speaker 1: because we don't want to let anybody know who's probably

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Speaker 1: out there who doesn't like you. Perhaps you left left

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Speaker 1: a few of those and you wait, so we're not

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Speaker 1: going to say where. But but you know, you still train.

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Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, it's not just training,

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Speaker 1: it's not just meditating or doing the yoga. Perhaps I

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Speaker 1: don't think it's that. I think there's more to it.

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Speaker 1: I think it's about understanding what it is you've been

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Speaker 1: doing and why you've been doing and what the purpose

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Speaker 1: it is why you do it. So maybe you just

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Speaker 1: helped me out here. Obviously I'm not a competent. I've

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Speaker 1: been a compet What is it that Gary Jubilan has

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Speaker 1: done that has allowed him not to go nuts?

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Speaker 2: Having purpose? Like, having purpose is something that's important I

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Speaker 2: get when I'm working a homicide investigation. My whole career

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Speaker 2: is litered with families that I've become close with because

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Speaker 2: of the intensity of a homicide investigation. They drive me

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Speaker 2: quite often. I've been asked by people. They might say,

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Speaker 2: how do you keep going on investigation for twenty years

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Speaker 2: I look to the families of the victim and say,

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Speaker 2: they're the ones that drive me and push me forward.

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Speaker 2: So it felt to me and this might I just

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Speaker 2: try to explain this in the best way. It made

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Speaker 2: me feel good about myself in that other aspects of

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Speaker 2: my life might be perfect, but I'm doing good work

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Speaker 2: every day I come to work, and yeah, you and

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Speaker 2: I have spoken about it. Relationships. I've had a couple

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Speaker 2: of marriage has breaken relationships. They're they're all the collateral damage,

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Speaker 2: I think. But where I hid from all the chaos

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Speaker 2: that was going in my private life was just to

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Speaker 2: throw myself in the work. And I can remember being

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Speaker 2: a Christmas Day going in the office because I didn't

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Speaker 2: want to face the chaos. It was my life at

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Speaker 2: the time.

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Speaker 1: So that's funny that you said, because sometimes we make

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Speaker 1: ourselves busy. There's a bit of an avoidance habit, avoiding

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Speaker 1: what it is I don't want to confront yep or

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Speaker 1: what I'm not enjoying. And when you're on a murder case,

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Speaker 1: it's easy to justify that. You can say, look, look,

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Speaker 1: you've got a murder.

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Speaker 2: You can you can hide behind it. And I'm mindful

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Speaker 2: of that, and I think there's been occasions where you, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: there is times when I think, look, okay, everything else

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Speaker 2: is falling apart, but just keep focusing on the on

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Speaker 2: the job you've got. I would joke, but I'm not

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Speaker 2: joking that it's the reality. When my relationships were in

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Speaker 2: a good place, it was a bad time for the

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Speaker 2: crooks because I had more time to concentrate on the

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Speaker 2: doing police work not the most healthiest way to live

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Speaker 2: your life. But I think at least I had I

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Speaker 2: wasn't aware, I was aware of it. I knew what

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Speaker 2: I was doing and that had control of it.

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Speaker 1: And would you would you have said then and hopefully now,

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Speaker 1: but irrespective of maybe it had a negative effect on

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Speaker 1: you in terms of what other things you're doing, relationships, etc.

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Speaker 1: Would you say that, ultimately though, your purpose was a

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Speaker 1: good purpose none less like I am trying to catch

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Speaker 1: a killer for this family who has suffered the death

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Speaker 1: and their family of what this killer or this perpetrator.

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Speaker 1: When I've done, is that the good purpose?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And that makes me feel like I'm doing some good.

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Speaker 2: I'm doing something worthwhile. That was what I was getting

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Speaker 2: back from the hours that I put in on the job.

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Speaker 2: And working hard. And you know, people would say it's

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Speaker 2: an obsession, but if you put your hand up to

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Speaker 2: run murder investigations, you should be obsessed. And if you're

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Speaker 2: going to do it and treat it like a nine five,

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Speaker 2: get out of there and let someone that's prepared to

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Speaker 2: make the sacrifices. We're not mucking around when someone's been killed.

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Speaker 2: We need to find out who killed that person. And

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Speaker 2: it's as real as real can get.

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Speaker 1: It's funny, you know when in birth of you and

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Speaker 1: I know number of commissioners who a number of whom

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Speaker 1: I was doing the fighting for them for many years,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of you get to meet and they'd say,

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Speaker 1: why are you the ambassador? And I used to get

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Speaker 1: asked this way, thembassador and yourself, police boxing and legacy,

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Speaker 1: police legacy, and and I want to ask you this question.

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Speaker 1: My response, generally speaking, was that police, the reward for

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Speaker 1: risk for cops is not a fair equation relative to

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Speaker 1: what everybody else in the country does. So the amount

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Speaker 1: of money you get paid and the accolades you get

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Speaker 1: and the sense of response responsibility you get from the

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Speaker 1: risk you take every single day private life risk, the

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Speaker 1: risk you take in relation to your families. You could

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Speaker 1: get anything can happen. The reward risk formula is wrong. Therefore,

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Speaker 1: I feel as a citizen that I should be giving

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Speaker 1: something back to the police. And I've got maids and

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Speaker 1: now I've got family who are coppers, et cetera. Why

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Speaker 1: do police take this unfair reward versus risk transaction?

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Speaker 2: I think, And let me clarify, because with the police,

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Speaker 2: there are some police that, yeah, I think they're taking

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Speaker 2: this all for a ride, definitely, and like with those

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Speaker 2: and that's where I get. You know, if you say police,

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Speaker 2: we deserve more money, and that yeah, a large percentage

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Speaker 2: of police deserve more money because they actually live and

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Speaker 2: breed the job. But it's a public service, and I

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Speaker 2: learned I always saw the joked about oh it's a

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Speaker 2: public service mentality and put public servants down. That was

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Speaker 2: until I had a conversation with Margaret Kneen, the senior

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Speaker 2: Crown prosecutor now a defense barrister, and I asked, Margaret,

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Speaker 2: why are you working for the DPP when if you

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Speaker 2: went to private you learned three times as much and

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Speaker 2: blah blah blah. She said, I hear, and I enjoy

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Speaker 2: serving the public, and that sort of that flipped my

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Speaker 2: thinking to a degree that there is a noble thing

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Speaker 2: in being a public servant and serving the public. And

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Speaker 2: I think most police join it for a thousand different reasons.

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Speaker 2: But the ones that become good at it know that

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Speaker 2: they're doing some good every day they turn up for

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Speaker 2: work because it is a very rewarding job. Like thirty

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Speaker 2: four years in the cops, I can't recall having the

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Speaker 2: day off sick in that thirty four years, and I

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Speaker 2: loved every day I came to work. So, yeah, it's

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Speaker 2: got a lot going for it, these benefits to it.

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Speaker 1: Do you think there's It's a tough question, but do

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Speaker 1: you think there's a lot of difference between the character

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Speaker 1: of a policeman versus a criminal? Yeah, well, apart from

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Speaker 1: the outcomes. I mean, like criminals are doing something it's

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Speaker 1: socially unacceptable. I get that part, But do you think

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Speaker 1: there's much different between the characters. You know that the

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Speaker 1: cops just doing his best, the criminals just doing his best. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it might and it might be not socially acceptable, but

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Speaker 1: is in much difference.

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Speaker 2: Look, the career criminals, I can sit down and have

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Speaker 2: a conversation with them, and I've been fortunate. Since I've

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Speaker 2: left the police, I've had a lot of people who

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Speaker 2: have become close to that were in their day notorious criminals.

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Speaker 2: We do have a commonality between us, and they understand

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Speaker 2: where I'm coming from that I understand where they're coming from.

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Speaker 2: I respect crooks, and obviously there's certain crimes that you

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Speaker 2: wouldn't spit.

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Speaker 1: On the person that's done are unacceptable.

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Speaker 2: But I respect the way that they go about their business.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't mean I agree with them. I respect that

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Speaker 2: they some of them, some of the hard crooks, have

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Speaker 2: a moral code that they stick to, and I respect

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Speaker 2: people that are not hypocritical in the saying they do

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Speaker 2: one thing but do the other. So yeah, I think

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Speaker 2: there's definitely definitely a connection between the cops and the crooks.

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Speaker 2: And quite often it's just a sliding door moment. Why

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Speaker 2: has this person turned into a crook and why has

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Speaker 2: that person turned into a cop? And then they meet again.

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Speaker 2: So I've had some fun catch ups with people that

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Speaker 2: I was chasing throughout my career, past career.

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Speaker 1: It's funny. I don't know, if you ever come across

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Speaker 1: this guy, he might be too young. How old are

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Speaker 1: you now in your fifties sixty sixty, Well you might

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Speaker 1: know this guy. It was a very well known criminal,

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Speaker 1: barrassy guy called Patrick Costello. I know the name Pacastello

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Speaker 1: was around with the Chris Murphy days, right, even Chris

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Speaker 1: Uster sort of you know. And they're both defense lawyers,

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Speaker 1: but usually in those days at the lower courts, because

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Speaker 1: they were sort of making I'm going back in the

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Speaker 1: seventies and eighties, and yeah, they were. And I used

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Speaker 1: always say about Pat passed away unfortunate, but I used

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Speaker 1: to say about pack Costello, if Pat hadn't have been

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Speaker 1: a great barras, he would have been a great gangster. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I didn't see. And he represents a lot of

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Speaker 1: crooks and in those days, and some of whom were

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Speaker 1: mates of mine, Boyce I grew up with, and I

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Speaker 1: and I in those days, we briefed me a few

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Speaker 1: times when I was at law for them. So and

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Speaker 1: so I got to known very well, very very well.

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Speaker 1: In fact, me and I had his wife and her

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Speaker 1: best friend. She was my girlfriend and he's married this

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Speaker 1: girl and said hang out together. But I also, I

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Speaker 1: say to myself, Pat was like just within a whisker

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Speaker 1: of not being a great criminal and there wasn't that

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Speaker 1: much difference between the barrister or the law. And you

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Speaker 1: know what is an officer of the court, which is

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Speaker 1: what the coppers are effectively, You're an officer of the

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Speaker 1: government versus the criminal. And the sort of characteristics I'm

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Speaker 1: talking about were they were smart, they were extraordinarily resilient.

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Speaker 1: He was they are They are in incredibly creative in

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Speaker 1: the ways they keep ahead of the law the crooks,

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Speaker 1: and the law is incredibly creative in the way they

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Speaker 1: try to catch the crooks. They all have big personalities,

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Speaker 1: not all of them, but a lot of them have

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Speaker 1: big personalities. And then they have hierarchies. There's politics within

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Speaker 1: the copps. There's a lot of politics, as you know

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Speaker 1: very well, very well, but there's politics within the criminal

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Speaker 1: environment to the criminal milieus. And is that something that

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Speaker 1: sort of when you decided to do your podcast, I

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Speaker 1: Catch Killers, is that something that became bleedingly even more

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Speaker 1: obvious to you than ever in the past.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think if when I started the I Catch

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Speaker 2: Killers podcast, the focus was going to be cops talking

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Speaker 2: about cases they've done, that's got a you can only

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Speaker 2: do that so much so often. And I thought, well,

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Speaker 2: if I want to take people in the world of crime,

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Speaker 2: the world of crime that I really know and understand.

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Speaker 2: It's three hundred.

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Speaker 1: And sixty degrees.

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Speaker 2: And so I started bringing in some crooks that I've

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Speaker 2: dealt with before, and Biky's and all sorts of things,

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Speaker 2: plus the witnesses, so people listening to the podcast would

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Speaker 2: get an understanding of what this whole world was about,

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Speaker 2: not just the one dimensional good guys bad guys. And

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Speaker 2: you hear the stories of some of the some of

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Speaker 2: the bad guys their upbringing or things that happened in

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Speaker 2: their life. I'd be a bad guy if that happened

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Speaker 2: to me. Yeah, So I take out the judgment of it,

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Speaker 2: but yeah, I think it to explore and understand the

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Speaker 2: world crime as I understood it, because it's a murky world.

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Speaker 2: It's a dark world, but you find some light in

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Speaker 2: that darkness with some of the people.

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Speaker 1: It's definitely not a simple world either. So we're both

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Speaker 1: made of Russell Manzon. Russell's been shining light on trauma

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Speaker 1: that a lot of criminals have suffered, like lifetime criminals

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Speaker 1: you have suffered when there've been younger men at the

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Speaker 1: hands of institutional institutions. So they have had either suffered

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Speaker 1: institutional sexual abuse or institutional violence or both at younger age.

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Speaker 1: I'm talking you from teenagers up into incarceration, and then

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Speaker 1: a lot of these guys they're just getting incarcerated, they

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Speaker 1: get out, then they go back and commit the same crimes,

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Speaker 1: and there's a commonality that there's a common denominator with

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Speaker 1: a lot of the people he talks about, including himself.

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Speaker 1: By the way, do you think now that you're out

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Speaker 1: of the cops, do you think to yourself sometimes, Wow,

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Speaker 1: these guys are guilty of the crime, but they're not

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Speaker 1: really guilty societally because to something, since society is a

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Speaker 1: bit responsible for what's happened.

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Speaker 2: I do have that view now, Mark, because I've been

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Speaker 2: out of the cops for three going on four years.

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Speaker 2: When I was in the cops, I didn't really have

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Speaker 2: time to think the while or how I'd be given

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Speaker 2: the case. I'd work the case, try and find the

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Speaker 2: person responsible for the crime, put them before the courts,

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Speaker 2: and then move on to the next one. So I

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Speaker 2: didn't if I I think Russell was robbing banks when

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Speaker 2: I was in the toil up squad around our area,

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Speaker 2: so I was probably looking for Russell at certain times,

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Speaker 2: but I wasn't concerned about what their upbringing was at

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Speaker 2: the time. I had to My role was to find

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Speaker 2: out who has been committing these crimes. Since I've stepped

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Speaker 2: away from the cops, I've got a bit more clear

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Speaker 2: air and I can look at it. Okay, why did

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Speaker 2: Russell turn out that way? Okay, that's pretty shit. I

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Speaker 2: can understand why he's angry, or it was an angry

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Speaker 2: young man.

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Speaker 1: The same as Morges. Yeah, it's the same deal. Yeah, yeah, different,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't sexual, beuce, but it's still the same deal.

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Speaker 2: Jeffrey like his story. Jeffrey Morgan grew up an indigenous man,

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Speaker 2: grew up around Redfern and talking about you know, when

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Speaker 2: you got home, there'd be nine people trying to share

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Speaker 2: one mattress and the best you could hope for was

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Speaker 2: getting your head on the mattress and stuff like that. So, yeah,

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Speaker 2: they've all come from where they haven't got that nurture. Well,

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Speaker 2: I won't say they haven't got the nurturing, because there

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Speaker 2: were still people that love them, that things happened in

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Speaker 2: their life that took their life in a certain path.

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Speaker 1: But how when you're in the police and this may

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Speaker 1: be a character trade of yours. But how were you

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Speaker 1: able to compartmentalize and just say, hang on, I'm a cop,

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Speaker 1: I've got a My job is my transaction at the

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Speaker 1: moment is I got to catch that particularly that murder

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Speaker 1: or that robber. What in the case of be thief,

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Speaker 1: I've got to catch that individual and I'm going to

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Speaker 1: put get enough evidence put it before the courts of

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Speaker 1: the courts can prosecute the particularly individual there's been charged.

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Speaker 1: How were you able to compartmentalize that yourself away from

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Speaker 1: not thinking about the things that you have been more

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Speaker 1: closer to in the last three or four years since

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Speaker 1: you've been out of the cops. Did you purposely compartmentalize

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Speaker 1: or there's just something naturally happens for all police.

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Speaker 2: I let it drift and drift into each part and

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Speaker 2: one thing. And I think this helped me in my

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Speaker 2: career as a detective. And all the good detectives, the

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Speaker 2: ones that I looked up to and the ones that

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Speaker 2: I respect, and the ones that are still doing the

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Speaker 2: good work now they have this empathy. What makes a

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Speaker 2: good detective? I say, empathy is right up there. And

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Speaker 2: I've heard all these great detectives drop the same thing.

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Speaker 2: What's that about is that sometimes you get confessions from people,

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Speaker 2: or you get information from people because you do genuinely care.

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Speaker 2: It's not fake, it's not transactional. You care. I would

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Speaker 2: get information from people phone me anytime, and my phone

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Speaker 2: would phone anytime. I'd run informants. Mate, I will always

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Speaker 2: have my phone on me. You called me anytime, they

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Speaker 2: might call me at two o'clock every night for a week,

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Speaker 2: who knows, but I'd take the calls. So I think

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Speaker 2: you've got the way that you get through that. So

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Speaker 2: you don't have to good guys bad guys because sometimes

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Speaker 2: they've overlapped, but you try to understand where they're all

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Speaker 2: coming from. And that helped me in my police and

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Speaker 2: that was what I was shown by people I looked

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Speaker 2: up to.

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Speaker 1: So being in a position where you can take call

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Speaker 1: at any time, or preparedness to take call at anytime, in

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Speaker 1: other words, access that would eat into your private life

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Speaker 1: by time.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I just you make me think of how many

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Speaker 2: fights I've had about can't you turn the phone off?

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Speaker 2: In different different relationships. And I remember getting so many

432
00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:30,639
Speaker 2: phone calls one night just literally sitting up that it

433
00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:32,119
Speaker 2: was pointless to go to bed because I'm going to

434
00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:35,280
Speaker 2: get called, and I'm going to get called. But as

435
00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:37,320
Speaker 2: I said, the type of work I was doing in

436
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:41,160
Speaker 2: the policing, it was a homicide work. So you've got

437
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:43,400
Speaker 2: to embrace it. You've got to be ready for it.

438
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,080
Speaker 2: There's little things. I was at home one night, Sunday night.

439
00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:49,200
Speaker 2: It was a phone call at ten o'clock and it

440
00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:51,639
Speaker 2: was a lady who was a victim of a sexual

441
00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:55,679
Speaker 2: assault something fifteen or seventeen years before, and so ten o'clock.

442
00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:58,439
Speaker 2: I hadn't spoken to it for fifteen years, and she

443
00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:01,760
Speaker 2: phoned up and I woke up. It was about ten

444
00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:04,440
Speaker 2: o'clock or whatever. I woke up Sunday night and answer

445
00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:06,199
Speaker 2: the call. And she goes, oh, you probably don't know

446
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:08,800
Speaker 2: who this is, and she mentioned the name. I go, yeah,

447
00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:11,840
Speaker 2: of course I do. And the thing that she needed

448
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:14,480
Speaker 2: some advice on something. There was an issue that had occurred.

449
00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:17,000
Speaker 2: The fact that I still remembered who she was and

450
00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:22,240
Speaker 2: cared enough to sit up and talk. I get reward

451
00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:24,200
Speaker 2: in different ways in that it was just a good thing.

452
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:26,280
Speaker 2: It made me feel like I'm doing the right thing.

453
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:29,800
Speaker 2: But I didn't realize how much you were on call

454
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,120
Speaker 2: or how much you were a slave to your job

455
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:35,000
Speaker 2: until I left, And for the first six months, I'm

456
00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:37,920
Speaker 2: looking around thinking why isn't anyone fanning me? Why isn't

457
00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:41,520
Speaker 2: this happening. You don't really realize how deep you've dived

458
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,960
Speaker 2: into that hole until you step away from it.

459
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:45,680
Speaker 1: Is it addictive?

460
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,000
Speaker 2: I think it is. Mark It's addictive, and it's competitive.

461
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:52,960
Speaker 2: And you know you are a hunter in effect when

462
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,560
Speaker 2: you're trying to solve a crime. You know the drive.

463
00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:59,600
Speaker 2: You understand that. I'm sure you channel that energy in

464
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,480
Speaker 2: different different areas, but it's almost like a personal challenge.

465
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:06,560
Speaker 2: It confronts and okay, let's see what happens here.

466
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:12,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it can confront other people, so colleagues can say, oh,

467
00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:16,760
Speaker 1: fuck him, like I don't like him because he's trying

468
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:21,800
Speaker 1: to add I mean, I mean the police service is

469
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:25,879
Speaker 1: a huge, huge, massive business. Like it's a big, big business,

470
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:27,800
Speaker 1: and you know, sitting at the top of that you

471
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:30,080
Speaker 1: have commissioners and you have deputies, and you have ac

472
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 1: is underneathn and then there's a massive hierarchy. It's ridiculously

473
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:40,119
Speaker 1: big hierarchy, and the politics can nearly divide the police

474
00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:41,000
Speaker 1: force down the middle.

475
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:46,560
Speaker 2: Oh, it's politics are just disgraceful. The politics down the middle.

476
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:52,879
Speaker 1: It's like any massive, big organization, and especially when probably

477
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:55,800
Speaker 1: particularly these days, when everybody's got to say and you

478
00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 1: have to loosen everybody. I mean like culturally we are

479
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:01,960
Speaker 1: happens in business too, but like culturally, you have to

480
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:05,399
Speaker 1: listen to what everybody's position is, and everybody now knows

481
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 1: that and everybody will put their position. Do you have

482
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:09,679
Speaker 1: any regrets having left the cops.

483
00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:13,280
Speaker 2: Look, I wouldn't want to be in there now. I

484
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 2: wouldn't trust being in the police for what happened to me,

485
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:18,920
Speaker 2: and you know, we can just discuss that or whatever

486
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,479
Speaker 2: I was charged with recording conversations. I wouldn't trust an

487
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,200
Speaker 2: organization that turned on me the way that they did,

488
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:30,360
Speaker 2: and people turned on me for personal vendetta or personal reasons. Yeah,

489
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,399
Speaker 2: I've been called the polarizing person in the cops. I

490
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,880
Speaker 2: find it funny still to this day people talk about, oh, yeah,

491
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:38,720
Speaker 2: I know Gary Jubil and I did this, I did

492
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 2: that with him, or I told him the bully's head

493
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:42,240
Speaker 2: in and all that. These are people who haven't even

494
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:45,439
Speaker 2: met so they're making stories up around me. And I

495
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:47,680
Speaker 2: challenge anyone to come and speak to me face to

496
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:51,400
Speaker 2: face and say what they've got to say. I really

497
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,720
Speaker 2: when I say a surprised. I had some people that

498
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 2: I respect. Soonior Police Nick Caldos, I mentioned his name.

499
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,879
Speaker 2: I don't think he'd be concerned. He spoke to me

500
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 2: prior to anything blowing up about me and he said,

501
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,359
Speaker 2: just be careful, Jubs. You've got a high profile in

502
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:10,679
Speaker 2: this organization and they'll try to take you down at

503
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:13,639
Speaker 2: some stage. It was almost like predicting the future because

504
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:15,200
Speaker 2: it happened very much that way.

505
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 1: He's a deputy at the time.

506
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and I got a lot of respect for him.

507
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,119
Speaker 2: He was one of the good bosses and just what

508
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 2: happened to me, without going into the details, there were

509
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:28,399
Speaker 2: people that were setting personal agendas why I don't know

510
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:30,680
Speaker 2: why I just turned up and did my job at work,

511
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,679
Speaker 2: and whether they felt threatened by that, whether they felt

512
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,399
Speaker 2: threatened by the informal power balance I had because people

513
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 2: recognized me as a homicide detective. I've seen that happen

514
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 2: to others. When it did buy up in New South

515
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,879
Speaker 2: Wales Police and it hit the media and it was

516
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:48,159
Speaker 2: fed to the media by New South Walle's police. Just

517
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,680
Speaker 2: shamefully just this type of information that was fed to

518
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:55,719
Speaker 2: the media about me Ron Edles, who's a well known

519
00:25:55,760 --> 00:26:00,199
Speaker 2: ex homicide detective from Victoria, and Charlie Bezina, also the

520
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 2: homicide high profile homicide detective from Victoria. I hadn't worked

521
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 2: with them, we knew of each other their work that

522
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:11,880
Speaker 2: they've done. They both reached out to me and told me, look,

523
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:14,120
Speaker 2: keep your head up high. This is what happened to us. Say,

524
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 2: both went through the same type of thing. And it's

525
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:20,200
Speaker 2: just an organization I think, with the public service or

526
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,399
Speaker 2: the police, they don't like anyone sticking their head above

527
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:25,640
Speaker 2: the group. If you stick your head above the group,

528
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,000
Speaker 2: people want to pull you down. And I think that's

529
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 2: part of it.

530
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 1: Why, I mean, I don't understand why is that why?

531
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:33,919
Speaker 1: I mean, even if you do stick a head up,

532
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 1: even if you have a little bit of ego, I mean,

533
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's a bad thing. I mean,

534
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 1: I mean, unless it sort of gets in the way

535
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 1: of judgment, perhaps, but that always end up being the

536
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 1: accusation that people make his ego got in the way

537
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 1: of judgment.

538
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you're relaying and I hear that and I

539
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 2: laugh at them. As I would laugh at them to

540
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 2: their face if they said it to me. I've heard

541
00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:00,240
Speaker 2: those things. An ego was what was my ego? Oh

542
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 2: that's right. I worked hard and went on some tough jobs.

543
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 2: Some of the jobs I worked on were high profile.

544
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 2: That wasn't me just picking jobs because I wanted the profile.

545
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:12,880
Speaker 2: That was me doing the work. And I know there

546
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 2: was people that were saying, oh, look, he's sticking his

547
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,399
Speaker 2: head up too high. Why are the media speaking to him?

548
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,399
Speaker 2: Or he loves the media. They were speaking to me

549
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 2: because I was doing the hard yards, doing the work

550
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 2: and running running the jobs. And that's what people didn't get.

551
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:30,920
Speaker 2: And it gets me. I won't say angry, although I'm

552
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:32,680
Speaker 2: not really hiding it, it does get me a little

553
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 2: bit angry that people say that my status in the

554
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,399
Speaker 2: cops changed, I think, or the people started to have

555
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,200
Speaker 2: opinions before they didn't know who I was, or unless

556
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 2: I worked with them. With the Underbelly TV series came

557
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 2: out Underbelly Badness.

558
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:49,119
Speaker 1: And the apcial original Underbelly.

559
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, in that whole series, and so they build a

560
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 2: series on Underbelly Badness and made of yours, made of mine.

561
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:57,960
Speaker 2: Matt Nabel played me and you know that when I

562
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 2: was in the Cops, and from that time I felt

563
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:02,880
Speaker 2: like I had a bit of a target on the back.

564
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:05,399
Speaker 2: Now I didn't give it to Channel nine or whoever

565
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 2: was screening and go hey, put me on Underbelly. They

566
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 2: came to Senior Police, and Senior Police said, well, this

567
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 2: is the toughest job running at the moment. That was

568
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,200
Speaker 2: a job, the murder of Terry Falconer. And so then

569
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,399
Speaker 2: they did the series on that and they portrayed me

570
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 2: in the private life, professional life and all that.

571
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:21,639
Speaker 1: I know.

572
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:25,680
Speaker 2: There was a shift after that because public Servant stuck

573
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 2: their head up jealousy. I hate saying that mark because

574
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:30,400
Speaker 2: I sound like a wanker if I go, oh, they're

575
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 2: just jealous, So I really hold back on that. I'm

576
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 2: just saying that, like, factually, once you had that recognition,

577
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 2: I know, and it worked for my favor it worked

578
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 2: against me. I'd get in the witness box. I know,

579
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 2: some barrasses go, oh, that's it Underbelly, dude, let's carve

580
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 2: him up in the witness box. So they go a

581
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 2: little bit harder and build their reputation that way. But

582
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 2: it also helped in the profile that I had. If

583
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 2: you were a crook or a suspect. If I get

584
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 2: a knock on the door, they're going to get shit

585
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 2: it's him, and I would use that. I would use that.

586
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 2: But yeah, I know I polarize people in the cops.

587
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 2: Some people don't like me because I expected them to

588
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 2: work on the strike force. And I'll make no apologies

589
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 2: for that. Like, if they're not going to work, I'm

590
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 2: going to call them, call them out on it. Other people,

591
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 2: even if they didn't like me personally, I'm sure they

592
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 2: respected respected the work that I did.

593
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 1: If you didn't call it jealousy, we just just put

594
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 1: down a human nature. Like human nature people, some will

595
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 1: follow someone who's got a profile, who's been seen as

596
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 1: being successful through the media, for example, and there will

597
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 1: be some who won't follow. You can call it polarizing.

598
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 1: Becau's basically polarizing me. You just split the joint down

599
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 1: the middle. Whenever you have a brand, and you know,

600
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 1: Jubilant had a brand. When you in the police force,

601
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 1: you're going to get some people like it and some

602
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 1: people don't like it. To me, it's just human nature

603
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 1: of the organization, the human nature of the total organization,

604
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 1: especially when it's a big organization. Yeah, it's normal.

605
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 2: And I and this is again just a theory with

606
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 2: policing because I wonder because it happens to so many police.

607
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 2: So you know, I'm not the first, I'm not the last.

608
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 2: I'll get a profile and get taken down or brought

609
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 2: down level. This is my theory, Mark, and I haven't

610
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 2: spoken to a psychologist about it, so it's not based

611
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 2: on anything. It's just a theory floating around in my head.

612
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 2: You join the police, you get a badge, you get

613
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 2: a gun, you get authority, you're the policemen. You walk

614
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 2: out on the street, you've got power. People even in

615
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 2: your social circuit circle, Oh that's a cop. He's a cop.

616
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 2: So your status is elevated above. Yeah, I'm saying above

617
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 2: the society that you've got power. You've got the power

618
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 2: to pull your gun and kill someone if you have

619
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 2: to in the right right charge sense, yeah, or charge them,

620
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 2: take away the liberty. There's a lot of power that

621
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,239
Speaker 2: goes there, and there's respect that goes there. Then you

622
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 2: put us all in there together. And so we've got

623
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 2: an office, open plan, an office of sixty or seven

624
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 2: people around there. Well, no one's looking at a special

625
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 2: for being a cop, because we're all cops, so we

626
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 2: cancel each other out. But then in that group of

627
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 2: sixty or seventy people, one or two of those people

628
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 2: rise above the people left there are trying to drag

629
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 2: them down because they're used to having the authority. Yeah,

630
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 2: I'm the cop, and when you're in that organization, you

631
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 2: stick your head up a little bit higher. Let's drag

632
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:15,720
Speaker 2: him down or drag her down, because it makes the

633
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 2: rest of us look poor.

634
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 1: It's a really interesting analytic or analysis of how the

635
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 1: police force works. And I've been watching for a long

636
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 1: long time. I've seen lots of commissioners come and go,

637
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 1: and I've seen lots of blokes and may up being

638
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 1: the case with our current commission but get stamped pretty hard,

639
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 1: well deservingly, undeservingly. And also, people don't forget what happened

640
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 1: on the way up. So if anything gets a bit wobbly,

641
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 1: it was up there. You know who's got their profile

642
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 1: up there. If there's anything wobbly on the way up,

643
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 1: it tends to get brought up. Yeah, as it gets

644
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 1: thrown back at him, I'll square up with him.

645
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 2: And then I think you understand the police. With the

646
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 2: police that. You know, there's little clicks, little groups and

647
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 2: all that. If I look back at my career, that's

648
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 2: probably I won't say a mistake, it's just the way

649
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 2: I rolled. But I didn't have a click.

650
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 1: I wasn't beholding You can't be isolated.

651
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I wasn't beholding to anyone or you know.

652
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 2: I just did my own thing and got to I

653
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 2: got to the rank of a commissioned officer, chief inspector.

654
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 2: I was happy there. Some people are thinking, why didn't

655
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 2: you want to climb higher? I like the work at

656
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:26,960
Speaker 2: that level. I like to be involved in the investigations.

657
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 2: That's what I wanted to wanted and that confused people.

658
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 2: We're thinking, what's it, what's he doing? What's what's this

659
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 2: all about? And I never really safeguarded myself by being

660
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 2: in little clicks, so people were beholding to me and

661
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 2: vice versa. I just was on my own.

662
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 1: So when you just when you left, you're probably happy.

663
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 1: When you're left, you probably got a bit of you

664
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:50,239
Speaker 1: probably got a bit of shock because I remember when

665
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 1: it happened, and it looked a bit untidy. How did

666
00:32:54,160 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 1: you feel like your whole life, your whole life's commitment

667
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 1: and or purpose was just taken away from a really

668
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 1: short notice.

669
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 2: What was a feeling I was gathered and when you

670
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 2: talk short notice, just quickly to put it in perspective,

671
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 2: it was on a Tuesday that the professional standards turned

672
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 2: up executed search warrants. I was taken upstairs, have my

673
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 2: gun taken off me, my phone's taken off me, blah

674
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 2: blah blah. Left finished in the building about six o'clock

675
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:29,240
Speaker 2: and just had nothing and just walked and it was

676
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 2: just totally totally rocked me. The weekend before that, so

677
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 2: we're talking to Tuesday. The weekend before that, two police

678
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 2: officers were shot up near Tamworth. I was flowing up

679
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:42,960
Speaker 2: there to oversee that investigation. I get back, I come

680
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 2: back from there.

681
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,719
Speaker 1: Then they were investigating driving incidents.

682
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 2: This was a different one, a person with firearms that

683
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 2: they went to a domestic situation. Two police officers shot

684
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 2: and the offender shot and shot himself. So I oversee that.

685
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 2: Then I come back to Sydney and then there's a

686
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 2: murder up at Newcastle. I go up to Newcastle oversee

687
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 2: the murder investigation up there. Then Tuesday and then Tuesday afternoon.

688
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:12,719
Speaker 2: From that was my life as in. Yeah, I'll go

689
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 2: do this, do that too. You're out out of the cops.

690
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 1: Suspend it or it will finish. Now.

691
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 2: I wasn't suspended and they could say whatever they want.

692
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 2: There was no way they could suspend me. It was

693
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 2: so ridiculous. What the charges? What the charges were? They

694
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 2: said to me, And a senior police officer at State

695
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:31,839
Speaker 2: Crime said, oh, Gary, you'll probably go off sick now,

696
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 2: and just go off sick. And I said, I haven't

697
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 2: had a sick day in thirty four years. I'm not

698
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:39,719
Speaker 2: going off sick. I'm turning up. I put my suit on.

699
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:43,279
Speaker 2: I turned up the next day and they wouldn't let

700
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 2: me in the homicide office, an officer that have been

701
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 2: for twenty years. I got shoed out of there like

702
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 2: it was some annibal lector that just walked into the

703
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:53,359
Speaker 2: homicide office. Then they put me in a room on

704
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 2: level nine, which is where all the bosses sit. And

705
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 2: when I say a room, it was just like a

706
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:01,719
Speaker 2: cupboard space with a glass tradition, and that's where I

707
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 2: sat for a couple of months before I just said,

708
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 2: this is ridiculous. But I turned up every day and

709
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:10,360
Speaker 2: just sat there. They took me off all the investigations.

710
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 2: I wasn't allowed to work on any of the investigations

711
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 2: I was running at the time, and I just sat there,

712
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,320
Speaker 2: and I know people were being told that, people that

713
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:20,799
Speaker 2: were close to me, saying, they're trying to provoke you

714
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:24,239
Speaker 2: to do something stupid, snap or whatever. So I sat

715
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 2: there playing whale and meditation music just to annoy the

716
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 2: fuck out of them as they walked past, and like

717
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 2: a cage line that they walk past, and I'd just

718
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 2: be sitting there playing meditation music and it almost sent

719
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 2: me insane, but it was my way of sort of

720
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 2: getting back.

721
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 1: Do the podcast. How did they come back?

722
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:56,359
Speaker 2: Well, it's funny how life turns out. I've had When

723
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:58,839
Speaker 2: I was in the police, people had made approaches to

724
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:01,399
Speaker 2: me about you, if you leave the cops, you can

725
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,720
Speaker 2: come into the media, and that was quite often. People

726
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:06,799
Speaker 2: would suggest that I wasn't going to leave the cops.

727
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 2: I love the cops. That was my passion. When this

728
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 2: incident happened, I caught up with someone because I worked

729
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 2: with News Corp. And sixty minutes and just a friend

730
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 2: of mine, a producer from sixty minutes said you want

731
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 2: to catch up for a drink? I said, yeah, and

732
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 2: she said, how's your week, and I've gone, how's my

733
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 2: fucking week? Because it hadn't hit the media at that stage,

734
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 2: and she's gone unbelievable. But anyway, that's good because the

735
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 2: reason I met you is I wanted to see if

736
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:37,280
Speaker 2: you'd be interested in doing something with sixty minutes. And

737
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,799
Speaker 2: then Claire Harvey at News Corp. I had a meeting

738
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 2: with her and she spoke about what we could do,

739
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 2: and so I had quite a few, quite a few offers,

740
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:51,759
Speaker 2: and I had other people reaching out to do security work,

741
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 2: that type of thing. So I wasn't short of short

742
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:59,799
Speaker 2: of options. But then the News Corp one suited me.

743
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:03,800
Speaker 2: Went with News Corp and signed to do write articles

744
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:05,280
Speaker 2: and do podcasts.

745
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:10,919
Speaker 1: Why are people crimes? Sex crime? They're the two big ones. Yeah,

746
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 1: Like in terms of podcasts especially, why are people so obsessed?

747
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:17,400
Speaker 1: Like audiences are talking about the sex or the crime.

748
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 2: I'm not going to explain to you why they're obsessed, Okay,

749
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,799
Speaker 2: we'll talk talk about crime. I think it's a world

750
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:27,800
Speaker 2: that they don't get to see. That's part of the

751
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 2: reason I joined the cops. I wanted to see what

752
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 2: was behind that police tape. That's why I became a detective.

753
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 2: I'd turn up to the crime scene and I'd see

754
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:36,400
Speaker 2: the detectives walk in there. That's why I wanted to

755
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 2: find out what's going on. I think we've all got

756
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 2: a fascination for crime. We all think that we're detectives

757
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,239
Speaker 2: in our own right that show us the clues, we'll

758
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 2: explain what's happened. And it's just a world that we

759
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 2: don't get to see. And it's a world that's you know,

760
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:52,320
Speaker 2: some people might have a mundane life or just the

761
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 2: day to day. It takes us out of that day

762
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:57,920
Speaker 2: to day living and gets the adrenaline running. And I

763
00:37:57,920 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 2: think that's what makes me serious.

764
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,800
Speaker 1: Your show started off interviewing who.

765
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 2: By the type people cops, cops that i'd worked with.

766
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:12,279
Speaker 2: My first, very first podcast was with Jason Evers. He'd

767
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:14,360
Speaker 2: been my partner in homicide for ten years. He was

768
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 2: out of the cops and we Claire's idea, why don't

769
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:19,880
Speaker 2: we gather a pub, will have it like two blakes

770
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 2: just talking. The audience will be a fly on the wall.

771
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 2: And that was the first season. So I got a

772
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:26,880
Speaker 2: lot of cops doing that. That was good, but I

773
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:30,000
Speaker 2: had to stop because we were drinking catch up with

774
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:33,280
Speaker 2: some old cops. We'd start recording the pub at about

775
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:36,319
Speaker 2: eight o'clock and I'll a beer to make it look

776
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 2: really sick, and we'd have a beer and then you'd

777
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:41,319
Speaker 2: finish that. Then they'd have lunchtime. Let's have a beer now,

778
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:43,799
Speaker 2: and I just I did one season that and said

779
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:47,919
Speaker 2: no more alcohol, Let's move to a studio, and then

780
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 2: we looked at There was one in the first season,

781
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:54,760
Speaker 2: Jaron Badget, an aboriginal lady grew up on the block.

782
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 2: Bumped into her when I was walking through the city

783
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 2: kicking stones, and she just left the plat said of

784
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 2: falling out with the police, And I said, how about

785
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 2: you come on the come on the podcast. Because she

786
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 2: joined the cops because she grew up in the block

787
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:10,439
Speaker 2: in Redfern and didn't want her family treated the way

788
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:12,359
Speaker 2: she was treated when she was growing up in the block.

789
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:16,319
Speaker 2: Really interesting person, really interesting perspective. I said, come on

790
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 2: the podcast. She's gone, I can't. You've got all these

791
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 2: super cops, you know, all these high profile detectives. I said,

792
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:25,839
Speaker 2: trust me, come on, and we did her podcast, and

793
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:28,879
Speaker 2: people just she's saying to this day, people are still

794
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 2: contacting about her about it, understanding her perspective being an

795
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:37,240
Speaker 2: aboriginal lady in the police and growing up on the block,

796
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:39,359
Speaker 2: and that sort of got me to thinking I can

797
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:41,320
Speaker 2: do more with the podcast. And then we've sort of

798
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 2: branched out and had a whole whole range of people.

799
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:46,720
Speaker 2: Try to keep the theme of crime running through because

800
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 2: mostly there is a connection with the crime, but occasionally

801
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 2: we just break out because I think if we just

802
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 2: do crime all the time, it's too dark. Like, Okay,

803
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:57,600
Speaker 2: I'll get a bloke on that murdered three people. Okay,

804
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:00,240
Speaker 2: next season we've got someone that's murdered five people. Yeah,

805
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 2: where does it end? So I'm just trying to give

806
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 2: it some life in letting people tell their stories.

807
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 1: What is now You've gone from the college, you just

808
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:12,239
Speaker 1: get paid a wage. You used to get paid a

809
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:15,840
Speaker 1: wage every week. Now running your own business, a podcast business,

810
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:19,800
Speaker 1: and other things you do that sort of surround the

811
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 1: broadcasting industry. What have you learned about that part of

812
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 1: your life relative to what it used to be like

813
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 1: when you used to get a paypack it every month,

814
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:30,200
Speaker 1: every week, whatever it's.

815
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 2: I think people that do get a pay packet each

816
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 2: week should be thankful that they get a pay pack.

817
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:39,520
Speaker 2: It so public servants or long term secure job because

818
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,680
Speaker 2: it certainly it takes the pressure off and you can

819
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 2: concentrate on your work now and you're going to get

820
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 2: paid when Like, I've set up a company and I

821
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 2: run it as a company, and I had to learn

822
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 2: all about tax and all stuff completely foreign to me

823
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:55,840
Speaker 2: because I didn't have to know about it. You know,

824
00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:58,240
Speaker 2: you're on on the policeman's wage. There wasn't much issue

825
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,879
Speaker 2: on tax. Now we're doing funds and different things that

826
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 2: I've really had to learn. When I learned, I've got

827
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:10,359
Speaker 2: an accountant that helps me through and set sets things up.

828
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:13,239
Speaker 2: But that in itself at the level when I left

829
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 2: as a cop, I was a detective, chief inspector. I

830
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:18,080
Speaker 2: had a team under me. If I wanted something done,

831
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:20,200
Speaker 2: could you do this? Could you do that? All of

832
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:23,520
Speaker 2: a sudden it became me running a business. Where's my stationary?

833
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 2: I can't say, yeah, a simple things like that, could

834
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:27,799
Speaker 2: you print that? We haven't got the printer. So I

835
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 2: had to set up an office. I had to start

836
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:32,480
Speaker 2: to think a little bit differently. I got to say,

837
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:35,959
Speaker 2: I'm enjoying it, and I give this advice to people too.

838
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 2: Working for yourself is very invigorating, and it got to

839
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:43,600
Speaker 2: the point I was so sort of in the cop mode,

840
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:45,479
Speaker 2: like I'd be asked to do a talk or asked

841
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 2: to come on your podcast, I'd have to do a

842
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 2: report and then the return report report. Now I can

843
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 2: just make my own decisions, work when I want to work,

844
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:55,279
Speaker 2: and I'm fortunate that the work's there for me. I

845
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:57,720
Speaker 2: understand I'd probably look at it a little bit differently

846
00:41:57,760 --> 00:41:59,840
Speaker 2: if I didn't have the work. But I'm enjoying it,

847
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 2: and I'm enjoying being rewarded for working hard, because sometimes

848
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 2: in the police they want to pull you down if

849
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:08,439
Speaker 2: you have some success. I was surprised with the first

850
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:10,799
Speaker 2: season of the podcast people coming up to me and saying,

851
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:12,799
Speaker 2: well done, that's great. You know, it's going really well,

852
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:14,799
Speaker 2: it's charting well, all that sort of stuff, And I'm

853
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:17,400
Speaker 2: sort of, where's a punchline? Because you wouldn't get that

854
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 2: in the cops. The cops didn't never gave you a

855
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:20,840
Speaker 2: pat on the back for doing anything.

856
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:23,880
Speaker 1: So what's your watch your outut now? In terms of

857
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:27,719
Speaker 1: I catch killer? So it's one podcast week, one podcast

858
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 1: a week for that? Yet for that what other things

859
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 1: you're doing.

860
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:33,800
Speaker 2: I do a podcast series like in Predatory, which is

861
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 2: looking at child sexual abuse, breaking badness. When I went

862
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 2: in the prisons about that, yeah, yeah, this was it

863
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:44,240
Speaker 2: was a really interesting experience. And this was just last

864
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:47,319
Speaker 2: year that Corrective Services got in contact with me and

865
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 2: said would you be interested in doing a podcast at

866
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:54,879
Speaker 2: the Macquarie Correctional Center up at Wellington. I said, yeah,

867
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:58,440
Speaker 2: in what form? Well, we're trying something a little bit

868
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:00,839
Speaker 2: different in the prison. It's a maximum security prison. Will

869
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:03,080
Speaker 2: give you full access to the prison and you go

870
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:05,840
Speaker 2: wherever you want, blah blah blah, have a look around

871
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:10,240
Speaker 2: and you report on what you see in the podcast.

872
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:13,239
Speaker 1: Form like a series ten episodes. So I think we

873
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:16,080
Speaker 1: have seven episodes. Seven episodes.

874
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 2: And so I went into this maximum security prison and

875
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:23,040
Speaker 2: you could imagine how popular I am. And before I

876
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:25,319
Speaker 2: went in, you're going through the gates and the metal

877
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 2: detectors and all that, and I said to Corrective Services

878
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 2: how are they going to react to me in there?

879
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 2: And They've gone We've got no idea. I'm thinking, oh Jesus,

880
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:38,359
Speaker 2: what's going to happen here? So I've walked in and yeah,

881
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 2: the reaction was as you would expect. The reaction people

882
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:43,799
Speaker 2: who just snarl at me, people make have a go

883
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 2: at me, and or other people who just ignored me gradually,

884
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 2: and it was almost caused all this drama in the prison. Well,

885
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 2: if he's in here, we're not doing this, We're not

886
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:55,319
Speaker 2: doing that type situation. And it got to the point

887
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 2: where I sat down with some of the power breakers

888
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:03,000
Speaker 2: in the prison, as in the criminals, the inmates, and

889
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:05,920
Speaker 2: explain what I was doing there. I said, look, what

890
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:09,719
Speaker 2: they're doing here at Macquarie Center is changing the dynamics

891
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:13,920
Speaker 2: of the way traditionally people are in prison in that

892
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 2: they're giving them reward, they're giving them responsibilities, they're giving

893
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:20,560
Speaker 2: them freedom, They're they're living more like they would on

894
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 2: the outside in there. And I said, if you Blake

895
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 2: say this is good, no one's going to listen to

896
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:27,480
Speaker 2: you because you're the bad guys and people don't care.

897
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 2: They think you should be breaking rocks and eating bread

898
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 2: and water. If I as an ex cop that you

899
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:36,360
Speaker 2: don't like, if I understand you don't like me for

900
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:39,880
Speaker 2: the position I hold, if I'm saying that works, maybe

901
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 2: that carries a little bit more weight credit and the credit, yeah,

902
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 2: it gives it credibility, and on that basis, they let

903
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 2: me walk around without too many dramas.

904
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 1: And when you say power brokers, how do you identify them?

905
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:57,799
Speaker 1: And or does the credit services identify them for you?

906
00:44:57,920 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 1: Than the range of meeting way.

907
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:01,839
Speaker 2: You can I can look around them pretty much pick

908
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:05,000
Speaker 2: out who's got the power, who has him in by reputation,

909
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:08,640
Speaker 2: looking reputation there and look and all that. And yeah,

910
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:11,239
Speaker 2: some of the younger prisoners they would arc up with

911
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:13,280
Speaker 2: me because they want to make a name for themselves.

912
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 2: Some of the more seasoned prisoners would they just turn

913
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 2: their back on me and walk away. That was their statement.

914
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 2: Others would be bold enough because I wouldn't shake hands

915
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 2: unless it was offered to me because that can cause dramas.

916
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:28,480
Speaker 2: And then I know the ones that are prepared to

917
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 2: come up and shake my hand, they're making a statement. Well,

918
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:33,759
Speaker 2: they don't give a stuff what other people think. Yeah,

919
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:37,800
Speaker 2: I'm in control of the situation here. So it was interesting.

920
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:40,359
Speaker 2: There was some funny comments and some funny moments. And

921
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:45,760
Speaker 2: I had were at Wellington Prison, Like there's Macquarie Correctional

922
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:50,720
Speaker 2: Center and Wellington's a more traditional prison, both maximum security prisons,

923
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:55,839
Speaker 2: and I'm walking around and someone's yelling or what they're

924
00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:58,560
Speaker 2: going to do to me, and that was very pleasant.

925
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 2: But yeah, they're funny. They're funny in the way that

926
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 2: they're saying it, and they're the sort of mob starting

927
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:06,279
Speaker 2: the form around me and I had I got them

928
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:10,440
Speaker 2: talking and we started to talk and I said to them, yeah, okay,

929
00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 2: guys here on the platform to what do you need

930
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:16,000
Speaker 2: in prison? And I'm being genuine like that, and some

931
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:18,440
Speaker 2: smart ass yells at how about a set of fucking

932
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:23,040
Speaker 2: keyser doupe? But that type, that type of humor. So

933
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:25,520
Speaker 2: it was an experience. Mark It was an experience that

934
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:29,279
Speaker 2: I never thought i'd get, and I enjoyed it. It was,

935
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 2: you know, a little bit tense at times. I was

936
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:33,719
Speaker 2: always you know, I didn't want to walk around with

937
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:36,319
Speaker 2: a swagger that everything's cool, because that would have been

938
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:40,440
Speaker 2: disrespectful to them. I'm in their environment, so I treated

939
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 2: them with the respect. And but yeah, I walked into

940
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:48,360
Speaker 2: the the factory area where they're working on machines and

941
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:51,080
Speaker 2: I could see two blokes look at me point and

942
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:53,719
Speaker 2: then another group come and form and I think, oh shit,

943
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:57,279
Speaker 2: where what what do I do here? I thought I'll

944
00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:00,120
Speaker 2: just go over. Yeah, Hi, Gary Jubilin, you know who

945
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:03,360
Speaker 2: I am, and they're all standing right around me. Another

946
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 2: group that were there when I was speaking to a

947
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:10,160
Speaker 2: group of them, they made the point because I was saying,

948
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 2: is it working here in the prison in this Macquarie

949
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:14,600
Speaker 2: Correctional Center, And they made the point, well, do you

950
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:16,360
Speaker 2: really think you'd get out of here if you're in

951
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:19,560
Speaker 2: another prison, because they're all sitting around me. And I said,

952
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:21,600
Speaker 2: in another prison, I wouldn't be sitting in the center

953
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:25,400
Speaker 2: of a circle. So stuff like that. But all jokes aside,

954
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:28,120
Speaker 2: I really think they're onto something, and that's something I'm

955
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:32,399
Speaker 2: really proud of the fact that I can help in

956
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 2: some way reduce crime by reducing recidivism and getting people

957
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:39,400
Speaker 2: say they've been in jail, they can come out and

958
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:42,160
Speaker 2: be a productive member of society. So that's sort of

959
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:44,319
Speaker 2: the rocking the boat doing that type of stuff. Only

960
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 2: yesterday I was at being invited to Parliament about a

961
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:52,439
Speaker 2: restorative justice system, and yeah, it's good that I'm doing

962
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:53,680
Speaker 2: things that I think are worthwhile.

963
00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:56,120
Speaker 1: Do you think the system is changing that? Because I

964
00:47:56,200 --> 00:48:00,560
Speaker 1: often wonder whether or not prison's actually the right answer

965
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 1: for a lot of criminals. In fact, I think it

966
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:07,040
Speaker 1: makes it worse sometimes sometimes you have to. There are

967
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:09,960
Speaker 1: some prisoners just there's some people who just must be imprisoned.

968
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:13,440
Speaker 1: They're just total dangers society and to themselves themselves for

969
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:17,120
Speaker 1: that matter. But largely I don't know if prison really

970
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:21,440
Speaker 1: works in terms of rehabilitating people or getting people ready

971
00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:25,000
Speaker 1: to rejoin society when they come out. Do you think

972
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 1: there's now something evolving so much so that Parliament, which

973
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:31,840
Speaker 1: where it's got to start. Parliament and the public service

974
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:33,840
Speaker 1: and all those people who administer this is a starting

975
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:35,080
Speaker 1: to think, well, maybe there's a better way of doing

976
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:35,920
Speaker 1: this sort of stuff.

977
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:38,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do, And I think if it's not working

978
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:41,640
Speaker 2: because we've got the high rate of receipsism, people go

979
00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:43,239
Speaker 2: in jail, I come out, and then up back in

980
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 2: jail ridiculously high rate. And I haven't got the figures

981
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:48,960
Speaker 2: in my head. But if we can break that cycle,

982
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:52,160
Speaker 2: everyone benefits. Costs money from a fiscal point of view,

983
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 2: it costs money to have people house in prisons. If

984
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:57,960
Speaker 2: we can integrate them back in the society, I think

985
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:01,480
Speaker 2: it's a much better place. And Ken marslu his son

986
00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:04,360
Speaker 2: was murdered, shot in the back of the head with

987
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:07,320
Speaker 2: a shotgun. Nineteen year old kid working in the pizza hut.

988
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:10,759
Speaker 2: Ken was angry. This happened about twenty years ago, and

989
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 2: he wanted the world. He wanted to crack down on crime,

990
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 2: mandatory sentencing, all that stuff. He's now I had him

991
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:19,280
Speaker 2: on the podcast, so I got him on the podcast.

992
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:22,320
Speaker 2: On that Breaking Badness podcast said, Okay, from a victim's

993
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:24,880
Speaker 2: point of view, he made the point that if you

994
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:28,400
Speaker 2: reduce crime, you reduce victims. I'm one hundred percent for it.

995
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 2: If we can make the prison system a better that

996
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:32,480
Speaker 2: the people come out better than when they went in,

997
00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:35,360
Speaker 2: that's a benefit to everyone, and I agree.

998
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:38,359
Speaker 1: One other thing is Gary jubilin doing is see you

999
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:42,520
Speaker 1: did Breaking Badness that they're they're like your special episode series,

1000
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:45,920
Speaker 1: and you did that for the Creational Services Department of

1001
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 1: Correctional Services. You got your own show. I soon recall you.

1002
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:54,880
Speaker 1: You are a host of a let's call it a

1003
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 1: road show with a math you dude, Yeah, yeah, a

1004
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:01,800
Speaker 1: year or so. Goo, what's that about?

1005
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:05,839
Speaker 2: Okay? I it was put to me after when I'm

1006
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:09,200
Speaker 2: out of the cops, like doing the podcast, written two books,

1007
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:12,000
Speaker 2: and it was put to me about doing a live

1008
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:14,759
Speaker 2: tour and what do you mean to do a live tour,

1009
00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:19,239
Speaker 2: a live stage shop? And I've gone a look, I'm

1010
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:21,239
Speaker 2: happy where I am. And they came back to me.

1011
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:23,520
Speaker 2: The promoters came back to me and said, look what

1012
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 2: if you did it with your mate Rob Carlton. Rob

1013
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:27,640
Speaker 2: Carlton's the good mate of mine and he's been an actor.

1014
00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:30,399
Speaker 2: He's a Kerry Packer, played Kerry Packer LOGI Award winning

1015
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:32,880
Speaker 2: actor and just a fun blake and a good mate.

1016
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:35,560
Speaker 2: Do it with Rob and I going, Okay, let's do

1017
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:38,759
Speaker 2: this tour. So we're playing all the capital cities round

1018
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:42,400
Speaker 2: around the country. Cavid hit or delayed, and we had

1019
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:44,800
Speaker 2: to put it off, put off. It was put off twice,

1020
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:48,000
Speaker 2: and I was quite glad the second time because I thinking,

1021
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:49,880
Speaker 2: why am I putting so much pressure on myself a

1022
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:52,200
Speaker 2: live show? People paying money to come and come and

1023
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:54,839
Speaker 2: see me entertain them. I'm a cop or X cop

1024
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:59,320
Speaker 2: and I'm struggling in my new world. The planets aligned

1025
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:02,520
Speaker 2: and the theaters were opened up again. So I had

1026
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:05,319
Speaker 2: about two weeks before I'm playing at m More Theater,

1027
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:08,400
Speaker 2: sold out m More Theater on a Saturday night, and

1028
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:09,920
Speaker 2: I've gone, Rob, so what are we going to do

1029
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:12,040
Speaker 2: and are we going to sit down Q and a's

1030
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:14,040
Speaker 2: He said, no, stupid, this is a theater. We're going

1031
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:16,920
Speaker 2: to take the audience on the journey. And I've gone farck,

1032
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:21,040
Speaker 2: where do we go here? And we put together a

1033
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 2: show that I'm very proud of it. It's stuff that

1034
00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:27,640
Speaker 2: people wouldn't expect. You know, I'm robed When I say

1035
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:30,480
Speaker 2: I'm role playing, I'm playing myself. And Rob pointed that out.

1036
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:32,760
Speaker 2: It can't be that hard. You're playing yourself. He would

1037
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:35,880
Speaker 2: play a crook in certain parts. And it was really

1038
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:39,440
Speaker 2: theater theater. It had laughter, it had tears, that had everything,

1039
00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:41,480
Speaker 2: and we toured around the country with it. I was

1040
00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:44,319
Speaker 2: like a sponge learning from Rob, like he just knows

1041
00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:46,360
Speaker 2: how to hold the stage and all that. So it

1042
00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:49,160
Speaker 2: was a great experience. And then on the back of that,

1043
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:54,680
Speaker 2: Michael Francis was Mafia Captain in the Mafia, one of

1044
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:58,480
Speaker 2: the most powerful mafia figures in any heyday in the US.

1045
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:01,279
Speaker 2: He was doing the to her and he asked me

1046
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:04,239
Speaker 2: to host his tour. So I'm doing a few of

1047
00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:07,920
Speaker 2: these live shows. I've learnt a lot, Like I was

1048
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:12,359
Speaker 2: so nervous the first night at ed More Theater, and

1049
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:15,720
Speaker 2: Nick for them is my manager. And Nick said, mate,

1050
00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:18,279
Speaker 2: you know Nick, and he's gone, it'll be right, It'll

1051
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:22,239
Speaker 2: be right, guarantee, audience love it. Blah blah blah blah blah.

1052
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:24,800
Speaker 2: And that's the last words he says to me before

1053
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:27,160
Speaker 2: we're ready to roll. Rob's in the room next door

1054
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:30,480
Speaker 2: doing sound practicing. I'm shadow boxing. I'm just trying to

1055
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:32,920
Speaker 2: dump all this adrenaline to I'm ready to walk out

1056
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:36,279
Speaker 2: on stage. And then at the end of the show

1057
00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:39,520
Speaker 2: standing ovation and Nick came up to me and said, Jesus, mate,

1058
00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:42,680
Speaker 2: I was a bit worried. I thought for you deep

1059
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:46,440
Speaker 2: thanks telling me Mark, Look, I really I really enjoyed it.

1060
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:49,600
Speaker 2: I like at different stages in your life, it's good

1061
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:51,799
Speaker 2: to have a challenge. And that was challenging and I

1062
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 2: learned a lot about myself. I learned a lot about

1063
00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:57,600
Speaker 2: working in the audience and on the stage, and it's

1064
00:52:57,640 --> 00:52:59,439
Speaker 2: given me the confidence to do a lot of other

1065
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:02,000
Speaker 2: things that I think it's helped in a lot of aspects.

1066
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:02,759
Speaker 2: And what haven't you.

1067
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:06,239
Speaker 1: And I just want to finish off on this one.

1068
00:53:06,239 --> 00:53:08,760
Speaker 1: But given that you're doing a whole lot of new things,

1069
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 1: or you've done a whole lot of new things for

1070
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:15,400
Speaker 1: your life. In the last four years, You've experienced a

1071
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:18,120
Speaker 1: whole lot of things you never thought you'd experienced before.

1072
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:23,000
Speaker 1: As you said, you're effectively being performer in terms of

1073
00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:25,520
Speaker 1: live theater, live a live perform, which is pretty tough.

1074
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:28,840
Speaker 1: But you think you do your podcast, you're a broadcaster.

1075
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:31,840
Speaker 1: You're obviously trying to attract sponsorship so you can so

1076
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:33,359
Speaker 1: you can pay the bills. You got to pay the bills.

1077
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:36,759
Speaker 1: You got to pay yourself. No matter, what is it that,

1078
00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:41,799
Speaker 1: given all these new experiences, all these new things you're doing,

1079
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:44,120
Speaker 1: what is it that Gary Jubilan has not let go of?

1080
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:47,279
Speaker 1: What things do you keep doing to keep your feet

1081
00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:48,239
Speaker 1: on the ground?

1082
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:53,520
Speaker 2: As in where I am now, I self critique in

1083
00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:56,560
Speaker 2: everything I do, Like I always think, Okay, that was good,

1084
00:53:56,560 --> 00:53:58,680
Speaker 2: but could it be a little bit better. I'm hard

1085
00:53:58,680 --> 00:54:01,040
Speaker 2: on myself, and I hope I I ease up on

1086
00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:04,600
Speaker 2: myself to a degree. But I I'm as good as

1087
00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:07,800
Speaker 2: my last podcast, I'm as good as my last TV interview.

1088
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:10,080
Speaker 2: Could have I done that better? That type of thing

1089
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:14,880
Speaker 2: that keeps me grounded. I've got mates, old mates that

1090
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:17,319
Speaker 2: kept me grounded when I was a cop, And I

1091
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:19,480
Speaker 2: think That's why I survived policing so long, because I

1092
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:22,160
Speaker 2: didn't hang out with cops. I had my mates that

1093
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:26,960
Speaker 2: bring me back to reality. Yeah, I have friends that

1094
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:29,680
Speaker 2: will go watch this stage show and then I'll catch

1095
00:54:29,719 --> 00:54:31,400
Speaker 2: up with ma after and they'll be making fun of

1096
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:33,520
Speaker 2: me and just keep keeping it real, taking the piss

1097
00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:35,520
Speaker 2: out of me a little bit. I think that helps.

1098
00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:38,960
Speaker 2: I've got more time now to spend with my children

1099
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:43,640
Speaker 2: and my family, which also helps me. I just yeah,

1100
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:46,600
Speaker 2: you mentioned I train with Johnny Lewis. There's a good

1101
00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:49,640
Speaker 2: little group that we get together every morning and characters

1102
00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:52,200
Speaker 2: from all different walks. So I've got that social thing

1103
00:54:52,239 --> 00:54:56,080
Speaker 2: because that's what I lost when I left the cops.

1104
00:54:56,600 --> 00:54:59,319
Speaker 2: Like my day was, I'd be speaking to twenty thirty

1105
00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:01,719
Speaker 2: people each day, and then that was taken away from me.

1106
00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:04,040
Speaker 2: Even when I'm doing the podcast stuff, I've got my

1107
00:55:04,080 --> 00:55:07,440
Speaker 2: office set up at home, but quite often, if i

1108
00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:09,560
Speaker 2: haven't got a guest or whatever, I've just got to

1109
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:14,800
Speaker 2: motivate myself the whole time. And yeah, sometimes that lounge

1110
00:55:14,840 --> 00:55:17,319
Speaker 2: looks good. I'm okay play on the lounge and have

1111
00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:20,480
Speaker 2: a sleep, But I try to regulate it. And when

1112
00:55:20,520 --> 00:55:22,560
Speaker 2: I walk into that room, and shut the door. That's

1113
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:24,920
Speaker 2: work time, so that that gives me that structure in

1114
00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:27,920
Speaker 2: life and that helps me stay balanced. But look, my

1115
00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:30,399
Speaker 2: life is a journey. I'm still on the journey. I'm

1116
00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:32,719
Speaker 2: all over the place on things. I just I do

1117
00:55:32,760 --> 00:55:35,560
Speaker 2: things that interest me. What I'm doing now is interesting me.

1118
00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:38,239
Speaker 2: It's challenging me, and like I'm enjoying it.

1119
00:55:40,239 --> 00:55:44,120
Speaker 1: I really going to appreciate. I really appreciate similar to

1120
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:49,000
Speaker 1: you that my my podcast life is since I started

1121
00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:52,759
Speaker 1: eight years ago. My god, we first started podcasting my

1122
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:55,440
Speaker 1: every first podcast, we had six people in the studio.

1123
00:55:55,520 --> 00:55:56,960
Speaker 1: I don't know what I was thinking. It was a

1124
00:55:56,960 --> 00:55:58,799
Speaker 1: half hour podcast. I was trying to do six people

1125
00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:02,640
Speaker 1: at once. And we've evolved over a long period of time.

1126
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:05,479
Speaker 1: But most of the time we're just scrambling, not really

1127
00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:08,160
Speaker 1: knowing what the fuck we're doing. There's no guidebook for

1128
00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:10,759
Speaker 1: any of this shit. You just you know, maybe Joe

1129
00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:12,839
Speaker 1: Rogan or someone that, but their audiences we go through

1130
00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:14,839
Speaker 1: a mean people live in Merriica. We don't have that here.

1131
00:56:15,160 --> 00:56:18,880
Speaker 1: So it's an interesting process for me. It's just like

1132
00:56:18,920 --> 00:56:22,719
Speaker 1: it has been few and I have to say that

1133
00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:28,080
Speaker 1: I'm obsessed with crime. I'm obsessed with criminals. I'm obsessed

1134
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:30,200
Speaker 1: with policing. I'm obsessed with who done it? So I

1135
00:56:30,239 --> 00:56:32,680
Speaker 1: love who Done It, whether it's a real life who

1136
00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:34,560
Speaker 1: Done It? Or even if it's a movie or that's

1137
00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:36,200
Speaker 1: what I love to watch on Netflix, Who Done It?

1138
00:56:37,640 --> 00:56:41,680
Speaker 1: I think you live in your business world. You live

1139
00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:42,840
Speaker 1: in a world which a lot of people would be

1140
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:44,719
Speaker 1: jealous of. I mean a lot of people would love

1141
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:50,400
Speaker 1: those that world. But I have to tell you, Gary, mate,

1142
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:53,160
Speaker 1: I'm filthy that you left the cops and didn't get

1143
00:56:53,160 --> 00:56:55,520
Speaker 1: my rematch. And the other thing that I'm filthy on

1144
00:56:55,600 --> 00:57:00,000
Speaker 1: is that Maddie Nabel, who, by the way, God rests

1145
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:05,719
Speaker 1: brother who recently died from motor neurone disease. And we're

1146
00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:09,520
Speaker 1: sorry Maddie for that new family's loss. But he coming

1147
00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:14,320
Speaker 1: to me three weeks before, I was having a coffee

1148
00:57:14,360 --> 00:57:15,759
Speaker 1: up the road and he coming to me three week

1149
00:57:15,760 --> 00:57:18,480
Speaker 1: saidfore we were due to fight. And he said to me,

1150
00:57:19,560 --> 00:57:21,880
Speaker 1: I'm going to come watch a fight. And I thought cool,

1151
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:24,000
Speaker 1: because I've known many for many years. I thought he's

1152
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:26,840
Speaker 1: going to watch me and I said yeah, I said,

1153
00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:28,400
Speaker 1: you know the bloke and fighting because I didn't really

1154
00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:31,000
Speaker 1: know you. And he said, yeah. Yeah, he's a good

1155
00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:33,400
Speaker 1: friend of mine. And he said, I played him in

1156
00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:38,040
Speaker 1: the series. And he said, and I said, I really,

1157
00:57:38,240 --> 00:57:39,720
Speaker 1: he said, you come to watch. Yeah, he's I rootin

1158
00:57:39,720 --> 00:57:41,040
Speaker 1: from me. He said, I mean, I'm going to be

1159
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:42,920
Speaker 1: effectively in his court, not in your corner, but like

1160
00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:46,120
Speaker 1: you know, behind you. And I said, fuck, like thanks, Maddie,

1161
00:57:46,120 --> 00:57:48,720
Speaker 1: Like I was actually devastated. Man, I'll be honest, I

1162
00:57:48,760 --> 00:57:49,520
Speaker 1: was really filthy.

1163
00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:51,560
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, sorry about that.

1164
00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:53,960
Speaker 1: That's all right, mate, and I don't worry. But I

1165
00:57:54,040 --> 00:57:56,840
Speaker 1: just that made it more so that I wanted to rematch.

1166
00:57:57,480 --> 00:58:02,120
Speaker 1: And but you left the police timely because I know

1167
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:04,440
Speaker 1: basically the vitalizing you did not want to remake.

1168
00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:07,240
Speaker 2: Are you suggesting fake nor lists? Yes.

1169
00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:10,400
Speaker 1: But the good thing about it is I'm happy about

1170
00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:12,439
Speaker 1: it because look what you've done for yourself. You've turned

1171
00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:14,720
Speaker 1: yourself in a great broadcast, that you've got a great podcast,

1172
00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:17,800
Speaker 1: you're you're you're right up there in terms of most

1173
00:58:17,880 --> 00:58:21,120
Speaker 1: listened to shows. You do a great live show. And

1174
00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:23,480
Speaker 1: I'm really happy to learning about yourself and learning about

1175
00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:25,440
Speaker 1: a different type of life and enjoying it at the

1176
00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:26,520
Speaker 1: same time and making a quid.

1177
00:58:27,440 --> 00:58:28,400
Speaker 2: Thanks, mate, Jesus