1 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:08,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Fearing Greed Business Interview. I'm Sean Almam. 2 00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: US President Donald Trump's directives on DEI, diversity, equity, and 3 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:16,639 Speaker 1: inclusion have caused major shop waves across the US, with 4 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 1: government departments and agencies ordered to change their employment and 5 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: hiring practices. It's also spread to the private sector, with 6 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:26,759 Speaker 1: some companies like Facebook and Instagram, Main and Meta canceling 7 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 1: DEI programs altogether to align themselves with the Trump administration, 8 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: and in a further escalation of the policy, the administration 9 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: rate to large companies in the EU, ordering them to 10 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 1: comply with the ban on DEI programs if they're a 11 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 1: supplier or service provider to the American government. It's getting 12 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: very complicated. Dealing with the way people are employed, the 13 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: opportunities they're given in the workplace, and the need to 14 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:52,959 Speaker 1: ensure fair representation of society is not easy. But there 15 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: are many who feel that reform to DEI is overdue 16 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 1: and shouldn't be rejected outright. Lindley is the founding director 17 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: of Surrenders Leadership. Before starting the firm more than two 18 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 1: decades ago, she held senior roles in global investment banks, 19 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 1: including HSBC Society General and ubs. Since founding Surrenders, she's 20 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 1: worked with leaders at asx two hundred companies like mcquari Group, 21 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:19,679 Speaker 1: Westpac and ADL, and international organizations including City and JP 22 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: Morgan maud Lindley, Welcome to the studio. 23 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:23,400 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. 24 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: First set the scene for us when we're talking about 25 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 1: DEI as it relates to Australian companies, what are we 26 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:30,319 Speaker 1: talking about? 27 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 2: Look, fortunately, and quite reassuringly, organizations in Australia are still 28 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 2: standing firm on their aspirations to bring other city to 29 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 2: their boards, to their executive teams. There's a strong commitment 30 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 2: still from Australian organizations to pursue their den initiatives. So 31 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 2: I'm not concerned in terms of how the business community 32 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 2: has responded to the Trump effect. However, I spend hours 33 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 2: in workshop facilitation engaging leaders, supporting leaders to think about 34 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:06,559 Speaker 2: how they can bring more inclusion and the way they lead, 35 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 2: and during those conversations I hear a lot of things 36 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 2: that are concerning and I think it's an opportunity today 37 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 2: we're getting to a point of maturity on the topic. 38 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 2: It's an opportunity to hear those voices and understand how 39 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 2: we can address them. 40 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 1: So what's concerning that you're hearing? I mean, no names, 41 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 1: but what are you worried about. 42 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 2: I'm worried about the perception from a part of the 43 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 2: population that the way we're tackling dr is perceived as unfair. 44 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 2: So what I'm hearing is, you know, we're tackling unfairness 45 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 2: with unfairness. We're trying to address an uneven playing field 46 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 2: by leveling the playing field in a different way. So 47 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 2: a lot of the actions, the positive discrimination that we 48 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 2: are using today to help level that playing field, is 49 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 2: experienced as a threat for many leaders. And you know, 50 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 2: of course you would think, well, is it male leaders 51 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:01,360 Speaker 2: in particular white and glad SAX and male leaders. Of 52 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 2: course yes, But many women actually resent this positive discrimination, 53 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 2: the actions that come with positive discriminations, because they feel 54 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 2: it as undermining their appointment when they are appointed to 55 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 2: significant roles. They worry that people will think it's just 56 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 2: because you're a woman. That is incredibly detrimental to their success. 57 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: Everything you've said, I keep thinking back in my mind 58 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 1: what should be DEI yes, and maybe what is doi. 59 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 2: We've got to start from the beginning. We have two 60 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 2: different aspirations that are pursued at the same time, and unfortunately, 61 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 2: because they're not explained, they're not dissociated, they undermine each other. 62 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 2: So you have one aspiration, which is fixing the fact 63 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 2: that women are not represented equally at board and executive 64 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 2: levels within our organizations right. I mean, we only have 65 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 2: nine female CEOs out of the Essex two hundred companies. 66 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 2: Chair representation is probably around the ten percent marked ten 67 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 2: to twelve percent mark. We're getting there in terms of 68 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 2: board representations study seven to forty three percent, but you 69 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:11,559 Speaker 2: can see that we still have a fairly unequal representation 70 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 2: of women. So we need to address this, and there 71 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 2: is a lot of underpinning unconscious biases. You know, the 72 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:23,480 Speaker 2: patriarchy is still very much experienced by many many women, 73 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 2: So there are a lot of fundamental inequalities that we 74 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:31,920 Speaker 2: can tackle. That's one one aspiration. The other aspiration is 75 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 2: to bring diversity of thought, to bring an adaptive and 76 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 2: inclusive workplace environment where we're capable of harnessing cognitive diversity, 77 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:44,360 Speaker 2: a diversity of mental models, so that we make better 78 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 2: decisions and we create a more innovative, creative way of 79 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 2: tackling today's business biggest challenges. The problem is that we're 80 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 2: amulgamating those two things and we're saying, bring more women. 81 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:00,480 Speaker 2: We need to fix this. It's unfair, and you'll have 82 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 2: diversity of thought. The prime with this is that it's 83 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 2: not exactly right. It's not exactly one is not necessarily 84 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 2: fixing the other. There are certainly there's a huge interplay 85 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 2: between the two, but we need to explain better how 86 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 2: those two things cohabitate or almost live side by side, 87 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:21,839 Speaker 2: but should be tackled differently, and we need to bring 88 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:26,039 Speaker 2: a different narrative. We need to enrich the narrative beyond 89 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 2: or behind why diversity of thought is important at an 90 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 2: organizational level, and how to foster that diversity of thought. 91 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 2: It is my experience and my belief that this second 92 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 2: aspiration and the narrative behind the why diversity of thought 93 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 2: is important and how diversity of thought needs to be leveraged. 94 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 2: If we enrich this narrative, we will get further on 95 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 2: the first issue that is very real, which is gender inequality. 96 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 1: More. We might dive into that in a moment. We'll 97 00:05:55,880 --> 00:06:05,920 Speaker 1: be back. I'm talking to maud Linley from a surrendous leadership. Okay, 98 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 1: so let's keep going down the path of the diversity 99 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 1: of thought and bring it back to what Donald Trump 100 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:16,479 Speaker 1: is doing in the US. Is your thesis that by 101 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 1: throwing it all up in the air, which he effectively 102 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 1: is doing, we get a chance to reset. 103 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:25,839 Speaker 2: No, Look, I think what Trump is doing is incredibly 104 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 2: detrimental to the cause that we will want to pursue. 105 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:32,839 Speaker 2: I think the way that he's tackling it is willful, 106 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 2: and so I really would hate for us to think 107 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:38,359 Speaker 2: that the way that he's tackling it there's anything to 108 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 2: learn from this. However, why have people voted for him? 109 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 2: Why have people sort of elicited that change just because 110 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 2: they are fearful of the way that we're bringing this 111 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 2: topic to life? And you know, if we are really 112 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:57,479 Speaker 2: committed to bringing change, we need all change of agents. 113 00:06:57,520 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 2: We need all the people who are actors of this 114 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 2: change to actually be on board with what we want 115 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 2: to achieve. And if there are people who are not 116 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 2: on board, we can get frustrated. I certainly get very 117 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 2: frustrated at times when I observe, you know, male leaders 118 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 2: not understanding the unequal playing field, not understanding the fact 119 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 2: that there are unconscious bias, is that they are certainly, 120 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 2: you know, we can respond the emotional, but we also 121 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 2: need to understand that change is only effective when people 122 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 2: have the desire to change, when they understand why it's 123 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 2: important to change, when they are equipped as to what 124 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 2: they can do, and when there is a positive reinforcement 125 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 2: that the change is going to be positive for everyone. 126 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 2: I believe we can find that narrative that will engage 127 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 2: everyone and that will take us further and faster. 128 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 1: How do you do it? I mean, this has been 129 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: something that we've been talking about for a long time 130 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 1: and it has improved. But did you say nine see leaders, females, 131 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: leaders of the top two hundred companies haven't done that 132 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 1: good job. 133 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 2: Perhaps because there are forces that play that we're not seeing, 134 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 2: that we're not hearing, that are acting against the change. 135 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 2: And these people, whether we agree with them or not, 136 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 2: I don't agree with them, but we need to listen 137 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 2: to them. We need to bring them to the conversation, 138 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 2: and we need to engage them. Now you've asked me, 139 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 2: we've tried. Why haven't we succeeded? Now we haven't really 140 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 2: explained why and how diversity of thought is helpful. We 141 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 2: haven't really explained that there is a fundamental shift in 142 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:32,080 Speaker 2: the way that organizations foster their culture. That is required 143 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 2: before we can really see diversity of thought flourishing. We 144 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 2: need to disconnect the concept of identity diversity, which is 145 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 2: demographic diversity around the table, and cognitive diversity. Cognitive diversity 146 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 2: is the extent to which you have a diversity of 147 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 2: mental models around the table. If we seek out, actively 148 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 2: seek out cognitive diversity, we're going to get a broader 149 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 2: spectrum of the population. Today, what we're doing is we're 150 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 2: trying to achieve gender diversity or cultural diversity, but we're 151 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 2: still looking for people who think the same way. We're 152 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 2: still looking for people who have ticked the same experienced box, 153 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 2: the same background, the same university. So if we broaden 154 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:12,199 Speaker 2: actually what we're expecting for any role, we will attract 155 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:14,560 Speaker 2: the broader spectrum of the population. But that's not enough. 156 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 2: That's only just starting. It's only bringing diversity to the table. 157 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 2: For diversity to stick, for diversity to flourish, for everyone 158 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 2: to be really considered as equal in a pursuit to 159 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 2: top leadership positions, we need to transform the way that 160 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 2: we make decisions. We need to really explain what inclusion means. 161 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 2: Inclusion doesn't mean consensus. Inclusion doesn't mean being nice. When 162 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 2: we seek out to be nice and to make decisions 163 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 2: based on consensus, we create groupthink. We create in group 164 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 2: that's actually the enemy of diversity of thought, cognitive diversity, 165 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 2: and adaptability. So we need to create an environment where 166 00:09:55,320 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 2: people are hungry to be challenged. Really hard, because in 167 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 2: an environment where being right seems the most important thing 168 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 2: to achieve to be recognized, that's actually a really hard 169 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 2: thing to do. So we've got to start from the 170 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 2: beginning at re explaining that the role of a leader 171 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 2: is to curate debate, to curate constructive descent, to make 172 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:24,959 Speaker 2: decisions by harnessing diversity of thought that are going to 173 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 2: challenge one set. 174 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:27,959 Speaker 1: I mean, we are tally out of time, but that's 175 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: really difficult. I mean, when you're talking, it reminds me 176 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 1: of how I manage my children, right, My children come 177 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 1: at things in a really different way, and cognitive diversity 178 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 1: is harder to get your head around. Then there's a male, 179 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 1: there's a female, there's a fifty year old, there's a 180 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 1: twenty five year old. Actually understanding cognitive diversity and reaping 181 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: the rewards from it is really tough. 182 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 2: We've come to a point of maturity where I think 183 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 2: it's needed and it's possible, and we can still measure 184 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:02,440 Speaker 2: identity city to check whether we are successful. You know, 185 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 2: I still think we need to measure identity diversity targets. 186 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:08,679 Speaker 2: We need to set targets and measure whether we get there. 187 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 2: But when you go to your middle manager, instead of 188 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 2: telling them you need to reach those identity diversity targets, 189 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 2: you need to explain to them and support them to 190 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 2: think about diversity of thought. We can't measure diversity of thought, 191 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:24,079 Speaker 2: but we can start to measure the culture that enables 192 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:27,319 Speaker 2: diversity of thought. So if you use a lever which 193 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 2: is adapting your culture, measuring a different type of culture 194 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:34,840 Speaker 2: as a leaver of change, and then your output is 195 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 2: your identity diversity targets, we'll get to those targets much 196 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:41,560 Speaker 2: more sustainably than perhaps where we are now. 197 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 1: I hope so more. Thank you for talking to Fear 198 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 1: and Greed. 199 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:45,200 Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having. 200 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 1: Me as maud Linley, founding director of Surrendous Leadership. This 201 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 1: is the Fear and Greed Business Interview. You join us 202 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:53,320 Speaker 1: every morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed 203 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 1: Daily business use for people who make their own decisions. 204 00:11:56,040 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: I'm Seanielmer. Enjoy your day.