1 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:06,930 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. The 2 00:00:06,930 --> 00:00:09,600 Sean Aylmer: eyes of the world are on the United Kingdom this week 3 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:13,590 Sean Aylmer: after almost all COVID restrictions were lifted in what was labelled 4 00:00:13,590 --> 00:00:17,250 Sean Aylmer: by some as "Freedom Day". 87 per cent of adults in 5 00:00:17,250 --> 00:00:20,790 Sean Aylmer: the United Kingdom have had one vaccination jab. 68 per 6 00:00:20,790 --> 00:00:24,419 Sean Aylmer: cent are now fully vaccinated. Compare that to Australia where 7 00:00:24,420 --> 00:00:27,810 Sean Aylmer: just 12 per cent are fully vaccinated. But the UK 8 00:00:27,810 --> 00:00:30,600 Sean Aylmer: has been through a shocking period with the virus. Around 9 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:34,680 Sean Aylmer: 130,000 people died. There are thousands of new cases every 10 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:38,400 Sean Aylmer: day still, and the numbers are climbing. I wanted to 11 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:40,919 Sean Aylmer: find out whether it really was Freedom Day or whether the 12 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:44,250 Sean Aylmer: public is wary enough to continue playing it safe, even 13 00:00:44,250 --> 00:00:47,190 Sean Aylmer: if the government says they don't have to. Latika Bourke is 14 00:00:47,190 --> 00:00:49,559 Sean Aylmer: a journalist with The Age and the Sydney Morning Herald 15 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:52,400 Sean Aylmer: based in London. Latika, welcome back to Fear and Greed. 16 00:00:52,830 --> 00:00:53,740 Latika Bourke: Nice to be here. 17 00:00:54,390 --> 00:00:56,220 Sean Aylmer: Is anyone actually calling it Freedom Day? 18 00:00:56,760 --> 00:01:00,420 Latika Bourke: The media is calling it Freedom Day. And even then 19 00:01:00,420 --> 00:01:02,700 Latika Bourke: in the Tory press, it's called Freedom Day and a 20 00:01:02,700 --> 00:01:05,040 Latika Bourke: bit of a rah rah exercise. But if you're in 21 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:07,620 Latika Bourke: the left wing press, like The Guardian, it's called Freedom 22 00:01:07,620 --> 00:01:10,290 Latika Bourke: Day with a slight dose of mocking tone. So... 23 00:01:10,290 --> 00:01:10,580 Sean Aylmer: Right. 24 00:01:10,709 --> 00:01:14,010 Latika Bourke: No one normal is calling it Freedom Day, put it 25 00:01:14,010 --> 00:01:15,630 Latika Bourke: that way. And I'm certainly not. 26 00:01:16,540 --> 00:01:18,660 Sean Aylmer: Right. Now, are there any restrictions still in place? 27 00:01:19,290 --> 00:01:22,919 Latika Bourke: Yes, the main one is travel. So it is still 28 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:26,220 Latika Bourke: fairly difficult to travel from the UK. It's certainly not 29 00:01:26,220 --> 00:01:29,399 Latika Bourke: prohibited and it has only been prohibited for a very 30 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:32,429 Latika Bourke: short time. That was earlier this year and in no 31 00:01:32,430 --> 00:01:35,010 Latika Bourke: way like Australia. So you could always rock up to 32 00:01:35,010 --> 00:01:37,380 Latika Bourke: the airport and leave if you had to and if 33 00:01:37,380 --> 00:01:40,440 Latika Bourke: you had an urgent need. So at the moment, travel 34 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:43,220 Latika Bourke: is OK for leisure. You can go on a holiday. 35 00:01:43,530 --> 00:01:45,600 Latika Bourke: But what the government's done is set up a green, amber 36 00:01:46,010 --> 00:01:49,110 Latika Bourke: and red list. Now, if you're green list, which I'm 37 00:01:49,110 --> 00:01:51,840 Latika Bourke: going to have just booked my first holiday, you can 38 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:55,530 Latika Bourke: go if you're double jabbed and countries will accept some 39 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:59,010 Latika Bourke: double jabbed people with no kind of testing requirements or quarantine on 40 00:01:59,010 --> 00:02:01,110 Latika Bourke: the other end. And then you can come home to 41 00:02:01,110 --> 00:02:03,270 Latika Bourke: the UK, not have to quarantine, but you do have 42 00:02:03,270 --> 00:02:06,690 Latika Bourke: to perform two PCR (polymerase chain reaction) tests, one before you leave and 43 00:02:06,690 --> 00:02:09,390 Latika Bourke: one when you get home. Amber, it's a little bit 44 00:02:09,389 --> 00:02:11,850 Latika Bourke: different if you're not double jabbed, which, still a lot 45 00:02:11,850 --> 00:02:14,340 Latika Bourke: of young people aren't, you do have to isolate for 46 00:02:14,340 --> 00:02:16,649 Latika Bourke: a couple of days pending a test. And red list, 47 00:02:16,650 --> 00:02:19,350 Latika Bourke: you have to go into hotel quarantine. So of course, no 48 00:02:19,350 --> 00:02:21,510 Latika Bourke: one really is going to a red list country unless you 49 00:02:21,510 --> 00:02:22,870 Latika Bourke: absolutely have to. 50 00:02:23,250 --> 00:02:25,950 Sean Aylmer: So double jabbed? Maybe not Freedom Day, but double jabbed. 51 00:02:25,950 --> 00:02:28,140 Sean Aylmer: I'm going to start using that term because that's not 52 00:02:28,139 --> 00:02:29,790 Sean Aylmer: one that we're using in Australia. 53 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:33,090 Latika Bourke: No double jabbed is certainly in the lexicon here. In fact, 54 00:02:33,090 --> 00:02:35,550 Latika Bourke: it's very, very common to walk around and ask people, 55 00:02:35,550 --> 00:02:39,089 Latika Bourke: are you double jabbed yet? When was your second jab? In fact, 56 00:02:39,090 --> 00:02:41,520 Latika Bourke: a great conversation going around now. All my neighbours are 57 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:44,370 Latika Bourke: younger than me, and I got really lucky and was 58 00:02:44,370 --> 00:02:47,430 Latika Bourke: able to score my second Pfizer jab just walking past 59 00:02:47,430 --> 00:02:49,380 Latika Bourke: a pharmacy a couple of weeks back. I got it 60 00:02:49,650 --> 00:02:52,320 Latika Bourke: five weeks after my first dose instead of the eight 61 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:54,840 Latika Bourke: weeks which they are insisting on publicly. But if you 62 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:57,780 Latika Bourke: know where to go, you can actually kind of get 63 00:02:57,780 --> 00:02:58,799 Latika Bourke: your second jab... 64 00:02:58,800 --> 00:02:59,130 Sean Aylmer: Earlier? 65 00:02:59,190 --> 00:03:02,280 Latika Bourke: ... on the sly a bit sooner. And so there's lots 66 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:04,410 Latika Bourke: of WhatsApp groups and lots of word of mouth going 67 00:03:04,410 --> 00:03:06,750 Latika Bourke: around like, hey, this pharmacy is doing second jabs if 68 00:03:06,750 --> 00:03:08,910 Latika Bourke: you just walk in at the end of the day. So, 69 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:12,270 Latika Bourke: I mean, to get a double jab is certainly more 70 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:15,769 Latika Bourke: commonly associated with freedom than that expression Freedom Day. 71 00:03:15,930 --> 00:03:19,050 Sean Aylmer: So why has a vaccination rollout been so good in 72 00:03:19,050 --> 00:03:21,330 Sean Aylmer: the UK when it's been so terrible here? 73 00:03:22,139 --> 00:03:24,180 Latika Bourke: I mean, a couple of reasons. One, what you referred 74 00:03:24,180 --> 00:03:26,549 Latika Bourke: to at the start, Sean. I mean, there's no other option 75 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:30,180 Latika Bourke: when thirteen hundred people are dying per day, you sit 76 00:03:30,180 --> 00:03:32,820 Latika Bourke: here locked up in the middle of winter in the 77 00:03:32,820 --> 00:03:35,640 Latika Bourke: heart of January in London, and you go give me 78 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:38,400 Latika Bourke: whatever will get me out of this. And so there 79 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:42,240 Latika Bourke: was a lot of vaccine hesitancy in the UK around, say, 80 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:45,990 Latika Bourke: this time last year before we'd even found vaccines. Once 81 00:03:45,990 --> 00:03:49,320 Latika Bourke: January came along and that terrible, terrible second wave where 82 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:51,660 Latika Bourke: we lost Christmas, we were all locked up. It was so, 83 00:03:51,660 --> 00:03:55,950 Latika Bourke: so miserable. The feeling then was put it in my 84 00:03:57,090 --> 00:03:59,610 Latika Bourke: arm. Get me that job as soon as I can. And 85 00:03:59,610 --> 00:04:02,220 Latika Bourke: the government, to its credit, the one thing they did 86 00:04:02,220 --> 00:04:05,520 Latika Bourke: was one, procure vaccines. And a minister very close to 87 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:08,850 Latika Bourke: Boris Johnson told me really early on that Boris looked 88 00:04:08,850 --> 00:04:11,190 Latika Bourke: at the pandemic and he got so many things wrong. 89 00:04:11,190 --> 00:04:13,380 Latika Bourke: But the one thing he did say was, science will 90 00:04:13,380 --> 00:04:15,810 Latika Bourke: get us out of this. We need to go full 91 00:04:15,810 --> 00:04:19,710 Latika Bourke: speed on vaccines. So we have obviously a British made vaccine 92 00:04:19,710 --> 00:04:23,400 Latika Bourke: here in AstraZeneca. We have some manufacturing, but most of 93 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:26,760 Latika Bourke: it is actually produced offshore. And then we had a 94 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:30,479 Latika Bourke: private sector individual in Kate Bingham and come in and set up 95 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:33,419 Latika Bourke: the rollout. And I think that made a huge, huge 96 00:04:33,420 --> 00:04:38,159 Latika Bourke: difference because essentially once we had the vaccines procured and 97 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:40,979 Latika Bourke: contracted and Britain was one of the first countries to 98 00:04:40,980 --> 00:04:44,160 Latika Bourke: get in and secure those supplies, it then became a 99 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:48,180 Latika Bourke: logistics question and they had a private sector logistics expert 100 00:04:48,180 --> 00:04:50,640 Latika Bourke: basically setting up that rollout. And it's all gone very, 101 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:51,180 Latika Bourke: very well. 102 00:04:51,660 --> 00:04:55,170 Sean Aylmer: OK, so most of the restrictions outside travel are now removed. 103 00:04:55,350 --> 00:04:56,990 Sean Aylmer: What's the feel like in London? 104 00:04:57,540 --> 00:05:02,890 Latika Bourke: Very hesitant, very cautious, a lot of nervousness. So. We 105 00:05:02,890 --> 00:05:05,710 Latika Bourke: are the only country to let this virus run at 106 00:05:05,710 --> 00:05:08,510 Latika Bourke: a time when cases are rising and not just rising. 107 00:05:08,830 --> 00:05:12,520 Latika Bourke: We are nearing the peak of cases as of the 108 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:15,550 Latika Bourke: second wave. I mean, we're getting to 50 thousand cases. 109 00:05:15,850 --> 00:05:19,510 Latika Bourke: When the Kent variant was on the run here late 110 00:05:19,510 --> 00:05:22,419 Latika Bourke: last year, cases were shooting up to sixty thousand. It 111 00:05:22,420 --> 00:05:24,940 Latika Bourke: was a real worry. Obviously, we saw what happened in 112 00:05:24,940 --> 00:05:27,460 Latika Bourke: December and January with the terrible death tolls that mounted. 113 00:05:27,850 --> 00:05:30,580 Latika Bourke: The difference now, of course, is most of us have 114 00:05:30,580 --> 00:05:34,720 Latika Bourke: been vaccinated. So deaths and hospitalisations are nowhere near what 115 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:37,330 Latika Bourke: they were, but they are on the rise. And we 116 00:05:37,330 --> 00:05:40,900 Latika Bourke: all know that if the hospitalisations much more than, say, 117 00:05:40,900 --> 00:05:44,770 Latika Bourke: the death toll, if those hospitalisations rise to a critical number, 118 00:05:45,070 --> 00:05:48,310 Latika Bourke: probably around two thousand admissions per day, we're probably going 119 00:05:48,310 --> 00:05:51,400 Latika Bourke: to be back in lockdown. So people are actually a 120 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:55,270 Latika Bourke: lot more cautious and nervous than you might expect. 121 00:05:56,260 --> 00:05:59,890 Sean Aylmer: Okay. Are people that are unvaccinated getting the virus generally? 122 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:04,000 Latika Bourke: Yes. So the UK data has been pretty good to date. 123 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:07,270 Latika Bourke: But one thing they're not currently showing on a daily 124 00:06:07,270 --> 00:06:10,390 Latika Bourke: basis is the sorts of people that are ending up 125 00:06:10,390 --> 00:06:13,960 Latika Bourke: in hospital. Now, we always had this complication with comorbidities 126 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:17,830 Latika Bourke: because COVID really affects people who have underlying conditions, as 127 00:06:17,830 --> 00:06:20,229 Latika Bourke: we all know. And there's long been calls for that 128 00:06:20,290 --> 00:06:23,140 Latika Bourke: kind of data to be supplied to the public. Now 129 00:06:23,140 --> 00:06:26,109 Latika Bourke: we're having a different set of calls for a different 130 00:06:26,110 --> 00:06:28,750 Latika Bourke: set of data, which is show us how many people 131 00:06:28,750 --> 00:06:32,170 Latika Bourke: are turning up in hospital who have been vaccinated and 132 00:06:32,170 --> 00:06:36,250 Latika Bourke: if they've been double vaccinated, because it is the case 133 00:06:36,250 --> 00:06:39,460 Latika Bourke: that more people are in hospital who are under 50 134 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:42,490 Latika Bourke: and then more people who are in hospital have not 135 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:46,120 Latika Bourke: had their vaccinations. It is true to say some people 136 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:48,589 Latika Bourke: who have been double jabbed are still going to hospital. 137 00:06:48,820 --> 00:06:51,310 Latika Bourke: It is true to say that some people who have 138 00:06:51,310 --> 00:06:54,970 Latika Bourke: been double jabbed are still dying from coronavirus, but that 139 00:06:54,970 --> 00:06:59,560 Latika Bourke: imperfect outcome is very good for Britain comparatively to where 140 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:00,049 Latika Bourke: we were. 141 00:07:00,460 --> 00:07:02,640 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Latika. We'll be back in a minute. 142 00:07:07,620 --> 00:07:09,510 Sean Aylmer: My guest this morning is The Age and the Sydney 143 00:07:09,510 --> 00:07:12,690 Sean Aylmer: Morning Herald journalist in London, Latika Bourke. So how is 144 00:07:12,690 --> 00:07:15,860 Sean Aylmer: Boris Johnson's popularity holding up at the moment? 145 00:07:16,590 --> 00:07:20,550 Latika Bourke: So it's been ebbs and flows. Late last year, it was fairly 146 00:07:20,550 --> 00:07:23,910 Latika Bourke: diabolical for Boris Johnson. I think losing Christmas was a 147 00:07:23,910 --> 00:07:27,000 Latika Bourke: big splintering moment for him. He managed to turn that 148 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:30,330 Latika Bourke: around with such a successful vaccination program and there's been 149 00:07:30,330 --> 00:07:35,850 Latika Bourke: a lot of pride. Britain feels very, very proud of 150 00:07:35,850 --> 00:07:38,850 Latika Bourke: how well they have rolled out the vaccination program. They 151 00:07:38,850 --> 00:07:42,630 Latika Bourke: look at countries like Australia which I dare say were a bit smug 152 00:07:42,630 --> 00:07:44,670 Latika Bourke: last year in saying to the rest of the world, well we're the envy of the world... 153 00:07:44,670 --> 00:07:45,070 Sean Aylmer: Oh, Latika. 154 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:48,320 Latika Bourke: ...you all want to be here! 155 00:07:48,670 --> 00:07:48,960 Sean Aylmer: Oh, Latika. Don't be like that! 156 00:07:50,940 --> 00:07:53,640 Latika Bourke: And I mean, here's an anecdote for you. The other week, 157 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:57,180 Latika Bourke: I was at a function and a group of international figures, 158 00:07:57,180 --> 00:08:00,330 Latika Bourke: many of them MPs from this country, but some figures from 159 00:08:00,330 --> 00:08:03,330 Latika Bourke: other countries around the world. They asked me what Australia's 160 00:08:03,330 --> 00:08:06,450 Latika Bourke: vaccination rate was. Then it was eight per cent. When I 161 00:08:06,450 --> 00:08:09,780 Latika Bourke: told them, they burst out laughing to my face. 162 00:08:10,380 --> 00:08:10,740 Sean Aylmer: Wow. 163 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:13,890 Latika Bourke: I have never experienced something like that in Britain. British 164 00:08:13,890 --> 00:08:17,190 Latika Bourke: people are usually very, very polite. But they were so 165 00:08:17,190 --> 00:08:21,540 Latika Bourke: astonished that a developed country like Australia would only have 166 00:08:21,540 --> 00:08:25,250 Latika Bourke: vaccinated eight per cent of its population by, what, mid-year? 167 00:08:26,100 --> 00:08:29,580 Sean Aylmer: It's quite incredible. Quite incredible. What about the rest of Europe? 168 00:08:29,610 --> 00:08:32,609 Sean Aylmer: I mean, what's the sense in, certainly cases in Germany is a 169 00:08:32,610 --> 00:08:36,450 Sean Aylmer: good example, but lots of other countries, Spain, Mediterranean countries, 170 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:40,110 Sean Aylmer: cases again are spiking. Is there a sense of more 171 00:08:40,110 --> 00:08:41,850 Sean Aylmer: lockdowns there? What's the story there? 172 00:08:42,179 --> 00:08:44,850 Latika Bourke: It's a mixed bag. So I'm going on holiday for 173 00:08:44,850 --> 00:08:47,280 Latika Bourke: a couple of days in a couple of weeks to Malta, 174 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:48,449 Latika Bourke: which is on the green list. 175 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:55,410 Sean Aylmer: Now, Latika, I'm going to jump in here. Here in Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide, we can't go 176 00:08:55,410 --> 00:08:58,290 Sean Aylmer: outside our local government area. And you're boasting about going 177 00:08:58,290 --> 00:08:59,400 Sean Aylmer: to Malta? I'm just bringing that to your attention. 178 00:09:00,929 --> 00:09:04,890 Latika Bourke: Sean! Sean, can I bring you back to 2020? Because I'm pretty 179 00:09:04,890 --> 00:09:05,250 Latika Bourke: sure the table's reversed! 180 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:07,410 Sean Aylmer: Yesterday's news, Latika! We're only worried about today. 181 00:09:07,860 --> 00:09:10,780 Latika Bourke: And every single Australian was saying to us, 'Gee life sucks over there. Ha Ha, 182 00:09:11,580 --> 00:09:14,250 Latika Bourke: we're all going to the footy here.' In fact, I think 183 00:09:14,250 --> 00:09:17,040 Latika Bourke: our Prime Minister may have been the lead cheerleader on 184 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:21,120 Latika Bourke: that narrative. So I will have a better sense of 185 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:22,810 Latika Bourke: this when I go to Europe in the next month. 186 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:25,020 Latika Bourke: I'm actually planning or hoping to do a couple of trips. 187 00:09:25,380 --> 00:09:28,199 Latika Bourke: But it is a mixed bag. Vaccinations have caught up 188 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:31,800 Latika Bourke: pretty well across the continent to where the UK has been. 189 00:09:32,170 --> 00:09:35,640 Latika Bourke: There was a lot of hesitancy as we know, say, in France early on. 190 00:09:35,850 --> 00:09:38,219 Latika Bourke: Emmanuel Macron made a very bold move a couple of 191 00:09:38,220 --> 00:09:41,130 Latika Bourke: weeks ago, basically saying we are going to ask for 192 00:09:41,130 --> 00:09:43,680 Latika Bourke: a vaccine passport to go to the restaurant, to go 193 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:45,990 Latika Bourke: to the cinema. And if you don't have one, stuff it. 194 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:48,929 Latika Bourke: Three million people subsequently came forward and got their vaccinations. 195 00:09:49,290 --> 00:09:53,700 Latika Bourke: So we're in a stage here where it's now down 196 00:09:53,700 --> 00:09:57,240 Latika Bourke: to getting those last few hesitant people over the line. So, 197 00:09:57,480 --> 00:09:59,699 Latika Bourke: for instance, in the UK, it's 88 per cent of people, 198 00:09:59,700 --> 00:10:01,890 Latika Bourke: as you said, a lot of those people who are 199 00:10:01,890 --> 00:10:04,979 Latika Bourke: not vaccinated and now the eighteen to twenty four year 200 00:10:04,980 --> 00:10:08,370 Latika Bourke: olds who just aren't coming forward for whatever reason. But 201 00:10:08,550 --> 00:10:11,309 Latika Bourke: in terms of opening up, some countries are varied. I 202 00:10:11,309 --> 00:10:15,360 Latika Bourke: still think it is a very chaotic scene. For example, 203 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:17,699 Latika Bourke: a couple of my friends have just cancelled their trips 204 00:10:17,700 --> 00:10:20,189 Latika Bourke: to France. I've got another girlfriend this morning who just 205 00:10:20,190 --> 00:10:21,630 Latika Bourke: texted me and said, I don't think I'm going to 206 00:10:21,630 --> 00:10:24,510 Latika Bourke: go to Spain anymore. It's just too risky. Because what 207 00:10:24,510 --> 00:10:29,010 Latika Bourke: is happening is even though vaccination rates are heading upwards, 208 00:10:29,340 --> 00:10:31,710 Latika Bourke: there is a lot of fear about the Delta variant 209 00:10:31,710 --> 00:10:35,010 Latika Bourke: and there's a lot of fear in the UK about 210 00:10:35,010 --> 00:10:37,890 Latika Bourke: the Beta variant, which is the one that emerged in 211 00:10:37,890 --> 00:10:42,540 Latika Bourke: South Africa. So we are seeing a situation, bizarrely, where 212 00:10:42,540 --> 00:10:45,870 Latika Bourke: it is more difficult to travel across Europe and it's 213 00:10:45,870 --> 00:10:50,790 Latika Bourke: becoming more difficult to open up freely with the protection of vaccines compared to, say, 214 00:10:50,790 --> 00:10:53,520 Latika Bourke: last year. This time last year, I went away four 215 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:56,520 Latika Bourke: times with no protection of vaccine and no promise of 216 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:59,850 Latika Bourke: protection of vaccine. Now, some people might say, well, we 217 00:10:59,850 --> 00:11:01,920 Latika Bourke: know what then subsequently happened in Europe. They had a 218 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:05,550 Latika Bourke: shocking second wave over Christmas and travel was part of that. 219 00:11:05,730 --> 00:11:09,059 Latika Bourke: That's absolutely true. But I think what we're seeing is 220 00:11:09,059 --> 00:11:12,600 Latika Bourke: that vaccines are not giving governments the certainty we might 221 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:16,050 Latika Bourke: have thought. And that's probably a portent for Australia. 222 00:11:16,980 --> 00:11:20,520 Sean Aylmer: When you look from afar back at Australia, what's your take, 223 00:11:20,910 --> 00:11:25,320 Sean Aylmer: the vaccination aside, just on how compliant in a funny 224 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:28,680 Sean Aylmer: way Australians are? You know, the state premiers suggest we 225 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:31,340 Sean Aylmer: go into lockdown, we go into lockdown immediately. We all 226 00:11:31,350 --> 00:11:33,570 Sean Aylmer: get our masks at again and we don't leave our 227 00:11:33,570 --> 00:11:37,439 Sean Aylmer: local government areas. It just seems such a different vibe 228 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:40,319 Sean Aylmer: to Europe where it doesn't seem that way at all. 229 00:11:40,860 --> 00:11:42,959 Latika Bourke: Yeah, and I think this is one of the biggest 230 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:46,800 Latika Bourke: misunderstandings between our two cultures because we are so similar 231 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:50,100 Latika Bourke: and we have so much obviously historical affinity. I think 232 00:11:50,100 --> 00:11:53,580 Latika Bourke: it's really easy for people to think that the British 233 00:11:53,580 --> 00:11:56,820 Latika Bourke: and the Australians will behave like each other and prioritise 234 00:11:56,820 --> 00:12:00,660 Latika Bourke: the same things. It's so not true. It is absolutely 235 00:12:00,660 --> 00:12:03,900 Latika Bourke: not true. You know, Dominic Cummings, Boris Johnson is now 236 00:12:03,900 --> 00:12:06,660 Latika Bourke: kind of disgraced adviser who is trying to blow up 237 00:12:06,660 --> 00:12:10,069 Latika Bourke: Boris Johnson's government gave this testimony to a committee a couple 238 00:12:10,070 --> 00:12:11,660 Latika Bourke: of weeks ago where he said one of the reasons 239 00:12:11,660 --> 00:12:14,750 Latika Bourke: Boris Johnson didn't want to put Britain into lockdown was 240 00:12:14,750 --> 00:12:18,350 Latika Bourke: because he thought that the British people wouldn't abide by it. Now, 241 00:12:18,350 --> 00:12:22,179 Latika Bourke: to some degree, Boris Johnson was right about that, because... 242 00:12:22,270 --> 00:12:22,329 Sean Aylmer: He had a point. Yeah. 243 00:12:22,940 --> 00:12:25,880 Latika Bourke: ...what happened in the U.K. is I think there was pretty 244 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:30,700 Latika Bourke: good compliance in the first lockdown. Second lockdown, absolutely no way. 245 00:12:31,070 --> 00:12:34,579 Latika Bourke: And the third lockdown compliance really only got to a 246 00:12:34,580 --> 00:12:37,520 Latika Bourke: strong point when it was really, really bad. When 40 247 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:39,890 Latika Bourke: thousand people were in hospital and those death tolls were 248 00:12:39,890 --> 00:12:42,800 Latika Bourke: upwards of one thousand per day, that's when people took 249 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:47,170 Latika Bourke: it really seriously. Until then, there was a lot of non-compliance. 250 00:12:47,179 --> 00:12:50,179 Latika Bourke: And I think in that Boris Johnson actually read his 251 00:12:50,179 --> 00:12:55,719 Latika Bourke: population much better than Dominic Cummings did. Now Australians are 252 00:12:55,730 --> 00:12:58,520 Latika Bourke: compliant and there's lots of people in Britain who would say, 253 00:12:58,550 --> 00:13:00,590 Latika Bourke: we wish we were a bit more like the Australians and 254 00:13:00,590 --> 00:13:03,740 Latika Bourke: the people had that sense of social solidarity. But it's 255 00:13:03,740 --> 00:13:06,800 Latika Bourke: just a different mix of ingredients here. People in the UK, 256 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:09,740 Latika Bourke: particularly in London, you know, I live in an area where all around 257 00:13:09,740 --> 00:13:12,500 Latika Bourke: me are council flats. Lots of lots of people are 258 00:13:12,500 --> 00:13:16,040 Latika Bourke: crammed into these tiny little houses. Asking them to live 259 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:19,580 Latika Bourke: through multiple endless lockdowns in the cold. Not going to 260 00:13:19,580 --> 00:13:21,959 Latika Bourke: school is really, really hard. 261 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:25,520 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. And look, just finally, what's the business community must 262 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:28,220 Sean Aylmer: be somewhat relieved after the lifting of restrictions? 263 00:13:29,090 --> 00:13:32,300 Latika Bourke: Yes and no. What is happening here is that we 264 00:13:32,300 --> 00:13:35,360 Latika Bourke: have what's called a "pingdemic". I don't know if you're 265 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:37,010 Latika Bourke: aware of this, but we have this... 266 00:13:37,340 --> 00:13:39,310 Sean Aylmer: No! Double jabs. Pingdemics. Go on. 267 00:13:39,650 --> 00:13:43,040 Latika Bourke: Yes. So we have this app that for at least 268 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:49,010 Latika Bourke: the next month, it senses through Bluetooth who you are near. Now, if, say, Sean Aylmer, I have 269 00:13:49,010 --> 00:13:51,830 Latika Bourke: a drink with you and you test positive, that app will 270 00:13:51,830 --> 00:13:54,500 Latika Bourke: ping me and tell me Sean Aylmer's just tested positive, 271 00:13:54,500 --> 00:13:56,949 Latika Bourke: you need to isolate pending your COVID test. 272 00:13:57,020 --> 00:13:57,460 Sean Aylmer: Wow. 273 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:01,929 Latika Bourke: Now that is causing havoc all across every single industry. 274 00:14:01,940 --> 00:14:04,219 Latika Bourke: Andrew Lloyd Webber just had to cancel the premiere of 275 00:14:04,220 --> 00:14:08,780 Latika Bourke: his new musical, Cinderella. Now, some may not weep too much about that, 276 00:14:09,140 --> 00:14:12,150 Latika Bourke: but it's an indication of how much chaos that's causing. 277 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:15,650 Latika Bourke: We've had supermarkets had to close because all the staff 278 00:14:15,650 --> 00:14:19,970 Latika Bourke: have been pinged. We've had hospitality really, really strongly affected 279 00:14:19,970 --> 00:14:22,820 Latika Bourke: because the entire place gets shut down if they're pinged, 280 00:14:22,820 --> 00:14:26,210 Latika Bourke: all their staff have to obviously isolate. Now, the government, well, 281 00:14:27,470 --> 00:14:30,170 Latika Bourke: there's this hilarious story. What happened on the weekend was 282 00:14:30,170 --> 00:14:35,330 Latika Bourke: Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak (United Kingdom Chancellor of the Exchequer) got pinged because the (United Kingdom) health secretary Sajid Javid tested positive. 283 00:14:35,330 --> 00:14:35,860 Sean Aylmer: Wow, of course. 284 00:14:35,990 --> 00:14:39,380 Latika Bourke: And so for two hours, the chancellor and the prime 285 00:14:39,380 --> 00:14:41,480 Latika Bourke: minister said that they were going to take part in 286 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:44,500 Latika Bourke: a new trial where they get to not be pinged. 287 00:14:45,050 --> 00:14:49,370 Latika Bourke: This trial was news to everyone. Everyone immediately said, can 288 00:14:49,370 --> 00:14:52,240 Latika Bourke: we also opt into that trial? Two hours later, they said, oh, no, 289 00:14:52,250 --> 00:14:55,730 Latika Bourke: we'll be isolating like the rest of the country. So 290 00:14:55,730 --> 00:14:59,090 Latika Bourke: that's just a small insight into how much havoc and 291 00:14:59,090 --> 00:15:03,760 Latika Bourke: chaos still reigns, even though we've got very good vaccination rates. 292 00:15:04,190 --> 00:15:06,470 Latika Bourke: So I think that uncertainty is going to prevail for 293 00:15:06,470 --> 00:15:09,410 Latika Bourke: a couple more months. And I really don't think we 294 00:15:09,410 --> 00:15:13,100 Latika Bourke: will have a good, stable sense of the situation until 295 00:15:13,100 --> 00:15:17,360 Latika Bourke: September when, and this is really the data to watch, 296 00:15:17,630 --> 00:15:21,470 Latika Bourke: if infections peak. Because they're going up and up and up. 297 00:15:21,470 --> 00:15:24,260 Latika Bourke: They can't be sustained at this rate. But if they 298 00:15:24,260 --> 00:15:26,330 Latika Bourke: hit the wall, which is what the scientists seem to 299 00:15:26,330 --> 00:15:29,390 Latika Bourke: be suggesting is about to happen and say that happens 300 00:15:29,390 --> 00:15:32,450 Latika Bourke: by September when schools come back and it's fairly much 301 00:15:32,450 --> 00:15:35,300 Latika Bourke: expected that office workers will return to work then, then 302 00:15:35,420 --> 00:15:38,780 Latika Bourke: we're in a good position. If that doesn't happen, I 303 00:15:38,780 --> 00:15:42,350 Latika Bourke: think we'll be having another very interesting conversation on this podcast. 304 00:15:42,350 --> 00:15:44,450 Latika Bourke: And I don't think, Sean, I'll be boasting about going 305 00:15:44,450 --> 00:15:45,320 Latika Bourke: to Malta next week. 306 00:15:45,950 --> 00:15:47,990 Sean Aylmer: Latika, thank you for talking to us and do enjoy 307 00:15:47,990 --> 00:15:49,430 Sean Aylmer: that trip to Malta while you can. 308 00:15:49,910 --> 00:15:50,850 Latika Bourke: Thank you. I will. 309 00:15:51,140 --> 00:15:53,630 Sean Aylmer: That was Latika Bourke, journalist for The Age and the Sydney 310 00:15:53,630 --> 00:15:55,520 Sean Aylmer: Morning Herald joining us from London. 311 00:15:55,610 --> 00:15:58,100 Sean Aylmer: And join me every weekday morning for the full Fear 312 00:15:58,100 --> 00:16:00,800 Sean Aylmer: and Greed podcast, the business news you need for a 313 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:03,680 Sean Aylmer: successful day. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.