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Speaker 1: Apoche production.

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Speaker 2: In this episode of The Missing Matter, we meet Chris

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Speaker 2: Darcy from Search Dog Sydney. He's a highly trained handler

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Speaker 2: who works on some of the most urgent and emotional

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Speaker 2: missing person's cases.

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Speaker 3: We've been called into quite a few missing person searches,

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Speaker 3: both live and de seas. However, most of our work

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Speaker 3: at the moment is for human remains detection of the

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Speaker 3: long term missing.

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Speaker 2: Chris isn't just an expert in the field, He's someone

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Speaker 2: Sally knows personally. They've worked together in the search for

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Speaker 2: Sally's mum, forging a connection built on trust, compassion and determination.

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Speaker 1: We finally made it.

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Speaker 3: Bounce the dogs over there, the dog rod that's coming

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Speaker 3: around the bench.

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Speaker 2: Today, Sally explores the incredible works Search Dog Sydneys do

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Speaker 2: and takes you inside the wall of the dogs and

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Speaker 2: handlers who step forward when families need answers the most.

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Speaker 4: Welcome everybody back to the Missing Matter podcast. Today, I

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Speaker 4: am talking with a friend of mine. His name is

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Speaker 4: Chris Darcy. You might remember his name. He is the

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Speaker 4: lead behind Search Dog Sydney along with his beautiful partner Adele.

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Speaker 4: Chris and I and Adele met for the first time

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Speaker 4: last year in February when they came to support me

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Speaker 4: at my mum's findings at Lincoln and I was so

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Speaker 4: tough to see them both there. They are in their

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Speaker 4: full kits. We knew exactly who they were, and they

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Speaker 4: rocked up in their search dog Sydney outfits. But I

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Speaker 4: thought that was kind of a great way to bring

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Speaker 4: a presence and an understanding of who you were and

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Speaker 4: who was supporting my mum in this case. Now since

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Speaker 4: then we've met a few other times. You came to

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Speaker 4: the live shows in Sydney that we when Joonie and

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Speaker 4: I were doing our fundraising and.

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Speaker 1: Talking about our trip.

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Speaker 4: He then helped us organize a dog search that we

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Speaker 4: did in Armadale and in Inverarel back in August, and

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Speaker 4: I did actually do a whole podcast episode for the

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Speaker 4: Missing Matter Marion Matters.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I think it's episode four called Sniffing Out the Answers,

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Speaker 4: where you'll hear us doing the full search of those

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Speaker 4: locations and what we found. And then of course we

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Speaker 4: followed that up with having the National Missing Persons Symposium

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Speaker 4: that we held in November twenty twenty four. It was

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Speaker 4: an interesting time for me actually because it was that

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Speaker 4: weekend that my dad noticeably had something happening to him.

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Speaker 4: If you remember too, I was up the Friday, saw

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Speaker 4: Dad knew something was wrong. We had this imposing on

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Speaker 4: the Saturday, and we sort of had to bail out

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Speaker 4: of coming out to your property Chris, to see the

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Speaker 4: dogs on the Sunday because we needed to do some

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Speaker 4: work for Dad. And you know, sadly, it's nearly a year.

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Speaker 4: He passed away couple of weeks ago, so it's been

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Speaker 4: a crazy twelve months for me. But I want to

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Speaker 4: welcome you to the Missing Metal Podcast. Thank you, Chris Darcy,

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Speaker 4: Thank you very much. Sally it can you tell us

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Speaker 4: a little bit about how Search Dog Syney came about.

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Speaker 3: Originally, Search Dog Sydney was formed back in twenty sixteen.

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Speaker 3: We're coming up onto our tenp now, so it certainly

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Speaker 3: developed from the original idea of being a search and

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Speaker 3: rescue dog organization, too, being much more than that, a

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Speaker 3: missing person's organization that actually can provide any and all

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Speaker 3: resources available to the families of missing loved ones to

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Speaker 3: assist in continuing that search.

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Speaker 4: And so tell us a little bit about your background

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Speaker 4: and what you were doing prior to Search Dog Sydney.

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Speaker 3: Prior to Search Dog Sydney, I was part of the

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Speaker 3: Urban Search and Rescue task Force here in New South Wales,

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Speaker 3: a joint organization between multi agencies here in New South Wales,

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Speaker 3: and it was our role to provide the canine search

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Speaker 3: and rescue capability to the emergency services. So we were

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Speaker 3: a critical component of the Urban Search and Rescue Task

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Speaker 3: Force because unfortunately, what the people don't realize is the

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Speaker 3: rescuers can't do their job until we've actually searched and

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Speaker 3: located where we can send the rescuers in. So our

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Speaker 3: dogs were actually trained to go into those disaster zones

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Speaker 3: first and foremost before anybody had arrived or anybody had

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Speaker 3: started to the rescue work, to locate those survivors and

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Speaker 3: go from there. So it was pretty critical what we

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Speaker 3: were doing and certainly gave an interesting insight into the

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Speaker 3: capabilities and what our taskings were.

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Speaker 4: One hundred percent and from your experience in New South

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Speaker 4: Wales SEES and USAR where there's specific missing person's cases

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Speaker 4: that opened your eyes to gaps in how missing person's

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Speaker 4: investigations were being handled.

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Speaker 3: I suppose it's not down to one specific case per

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Speaker 3: se as to the handling of missing person's investigations. But

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Speaker 3: originally it did art that we could see how good

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Speaker 3: our dogs were doing in the disaster zones and how

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Speaker 3: good that these dogs would be able to then transition

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Speaker 3: into what we call in an urban search and rescue environment,

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Speaker 3: a wide area search, which is basically a land search

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Speaker 3: for a missing person, and by training the dogs to

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Speaker 3: smell out in a human scent in an environment, we

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Speaker 3: realized how good that they could be in a missing

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Speaker 3: person search.

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Speaker 4: So I guess what I would like you to share

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Speaker 4: with everybody is your mission as to what Search Dogs

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Speaker 4: Sydney is about and how it's evolved over the years.

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Speaker 3: Search Dog Sydney was originally created and formed back in

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Speaker 3: January twenty sixteen when the New South Wales SES decided

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Speaker 3: that they would.

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Speaker 5: Not have a canine capability.

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Speaker 3: It was realized back then that it was too difficult

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Speaker 3: for an emergency service organization here in New South Wales

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Speaker 3: to manage a canine capability. On top of that, Fire

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Speaker 3: and Rescue at the time wouldn't permit us to go

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Speaker 3: and train our dogs and they rubble paths because they

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Speaker 3: deemed it too dangerous. And yet here we were providing

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Speaker 3: a specialist capability for them. So eventually the SEES decided

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Speaker 3: they'd closed down the canine capability and that's when we

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Speaker 3: realized that a call came in for another land search

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Speaker 3: in the Blue Mountains where a lady had gone missing

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Speaker 3: up there and for ten days they continued to search

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Speaker 3: for it. They put a lot of resources into this

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Speaker 3: particular search. However they never called in any dogs. Whilst

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Speaker 3: I was a member of the SEES still at the time,

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Speaker 3: I offered the services of the dog that we had

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Speaker 3: to go up there and to assist, and that was

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Speaker 3: promptly rejected that it wasn't required. In actual fact, the

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Speaker 3: very next day on social media it was posted that

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Speaker 3: a explosive detection dog was sent to the scene for

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Speaker 3: a community engagement to make it look like in the

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Speaker 3: media a dog was attending the search this poor lady

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Speaker 3: once again, he's still missing. And that's when Search Dog

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Speaker 3: Sydney it was determined that we need a canine capability

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Speaker 3: here in New South Wales.

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Speaker 4: Can you highlight some of Search Jogs Sydney's key achievements today.

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Speaker 5: Every single search we do is to us our key achievement.

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Speaker 3: It's being able to assist those families because most of

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Speaker 3: the time when we get the phone call, it's usually

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Speaker 3: because police and emergency services have lucked out on the

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Speaker 3: want of a better word, they've deployed what resources they

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Speaker 3: have and they've been usually unsuccessful, hence why we get

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Speaker 3: the phone call. But there are a few memorable ones

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Speaker 3: that we do have and the community searches up there

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Speaker 3: called us in us is with our hires and the

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Speaker 3: first thing we did as an organization was to go

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Speaker 3: to Bairo Bay Police Station to make ourselves known, advise

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Speaker 3: what resources we had with us, and to let them

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Speaker 3: know what we were proposing on doing, and asking the

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Speaker 3: officer in charge if there was anything that he would

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Speaker 3: like us to do, because knowing the resources were short,

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Speaker 3: we wanted to make sure that we had full communication

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Speaker 3: and everything to let them know if they needed anything.

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Speaker 3: And the response we got from the police officer at

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Speaker 3: that time, which has stood in our heads ever since,

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Speaker 3: was knock yourself out. Now, this is the officer in

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Speaker 3: charge of a missing Belgium backpacker, and that's the response

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Speaker 3: you're giving a search or organization that's come up here

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Speaker 3: to assist you. Knock yourself out. That was the response.

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Speaker 3: But there's one more that I'd like to tap into,

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Speaker 3: and that is the case of young Cheryl Grimmer, who

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Speaker 3: had been recently heavily involved in Cheryl was three years

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Speaker 3: old when she was abducted from Very Meadow Beach back

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Speaker 3: in nineteen seventy and in nineteen seventy one a person

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Speaker 3: admitted to abducting her and killing her and disposing of

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Speaker 3: her body in a certain area and the police did

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Speaker 3: a walk through of that area back in nineteen seventy one,

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Speaker 3: but in fifty five years, they never undertook a formal

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Speaker 3: search to look for her. In fifty five years, even

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Speaker 3: though there was a Supreme Court action occurring that two

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Speaker 3: detective said arrested an extra nited a mand from another state,

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Speaker 3: they had never actually gone through and searched for her body.

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Speaker 3: And that to me just highlights the problems that we

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Speaker 3: are having for the families of missing persons.

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Speaker 4: And you recently have gone down and conducted a search.

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Speaker 4: Can we talk about that today or is that off topic?

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Speaker 3: No, we can most certainly talk about it. It's currently

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Speaker 3: lots of good things happening as we speak, which is

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Speaker 3: excellent news for us.

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Speaker 4: I wanted to bring you on, Chris, because myself living

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Speaker 4: in this space, and when we did two dog searchers

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Speaker 4: over two days, one in Armadale and one in Inverrel,

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Speaker 4: I found it quite fascinating and the process of you know,

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Speaker 4: it's not just that you train a dog, you take

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Speaker 4: the dog out, the dog finds bones, and bingo, you've

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Speaker 4: found your missing person. It's a lot more convoluted and

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Speaker 4: there's a lot more process that goes into this. So

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Speaker 4: I wanted you to walk everyone through and understand the

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Speaker 4: training processes for the dogs and how long does it take,

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Speaker 4: what do they learn, and how do you prepare them

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Speaker 4: for a wide variety of search environments.

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Speaker 3: We do two types of searching for missing persons, and

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Speaker 3: that is persons that are alive or persons that are deceased.

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Speaker 3: So that's how we determine our two types of dogs.

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Speaker 3: Let's quickly knock a myth out of the way. Kadava

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Speaker 3: dogs and human remains detection dogs. They're two completely different dogs. Now,

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Speaker 3: a kadava dog is initially trained to locate a kadaver,

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Speaker 3: which is a body that is still in intact.

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Speaker 5: However, human remains.

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Speaker 3: Detection dogs or dogs that are trained to search for

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Speaker 3: any part of the human body that may be remaining

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Speaker 3: in an environment, so that could be the whole kadava,

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Speaker 3: or that could just be purely and simply grave soil.

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Speaker 3: So I'm apologizing now if there's some topics that people

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Speaker 3: don't want to hear, because it can be quite sensitive,

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Speaker 3: and we do sort of talk matter frankly about it,

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Speaker 3: because that's unfortunately what we have to do in regards

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Speaker 3: to training our dogs. It's a sense source. It's what

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Speaker 3: they're searching for and they're locating. But when it comes

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Speaker 3: to our live fline dogs, which we prefer to focus on,

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Speaker 3: that's where we'd rather be. We'd rather be getting in

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Speaker 3: there as soon as the missing person is reported. Our

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Speaker 3: dogs are trained to locate any live human scent in

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Speaker 3: any environment, and that stems from our urban search and

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Speaker 3: rescue training. So when we were deployed in twenty fourteen

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Speaker 3: to the Roosevelt building collapse, that particular building collapse was

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Speaker 3: a convenience store and upstairs was two unit blocks where

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Speaker 3: a mother and told when I found sadly deceased. But

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Speaker 3: the man had tried to do an insurance job upon

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Speaker 3: his convenience store and blew it up. Sadly, he killed

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Speaker 3: those three members now beco the training of our dogs,

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Speaker 3: they were able to locate the mother and child throughout

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Speaker 3: all of that distraction. And when I say distraction, it's

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Speaker 3: okay for us if we just put some perfume on

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Speaker 3: or some deodor and all that sort of thing. But

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Speaker 3: if you were to walk into your kitchen and cook

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Speaker 3: everything that's in your cupboard and everything that's in your fridge,

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Speaker 3: and everything in your freezer all at the same time,

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Speaker 3: then that's what the disaster zones generally smell like. And

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Speaker 3: then we're asking the dogs to say, go and find

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Speaker 3: the pepper out of all of that smell. We're asking

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Speaker 3: them to find that one smell out of everything else

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Speaker 3: that's there. So that's when we say a contaminated environment.

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Speaker 3: And the difference with the dogs that are training in

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Speaker 3: that they really know to pinpoint the human scent in

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Speaker 3: that area. And then that's great for working in the

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Speaker 3: bush lands and for working alternative areas where the dogs

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Speaker 3: are Now to get the dog to that stage, it's

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Speaker 3: usually about eighteen months to two years, and that takes

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Speaker 3: thousands and thousands of repetitions of those dogs to be

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Speaker 3: first they've got a lerd to actually provide an alert

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Speaker 3: when they do find a life human and associate that

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Speaker 3: with a toy. For lots of dogs, it's a tennis ball,

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Speaker 3: or it's a food treat or something like that, but

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Speaker 3: ultimately it's just having one.

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Speaker 5: Big game with the dogs.

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Speaker 3: And then we have the human remains detection dogs, which

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Speaker 3: are changing very similar principle where they're trained on the

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Speaker 3: six different stages of decomposition, including cremated remains. So the

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Speaker 3: dogs are trained to search for and locate all of

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Speaker 3: those different stages because they don't know what they're going

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Speaker 3: to find. When we're searching for a long term missing person,

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Speaker 3: depending on how long they've been missing for, depending on

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Speaker 3: the environment, depending on the weather conditions, we need those

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Speaker 3: dogs to be able to generalize all of those sense

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Speaker 3: together and to be able to locate human scent, whether

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Speaker 3: or not that be alive or deceased.

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Speaker 5: So it's very.

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Speaker 3: Much a long term training process with the dogs. It's

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Speaker 3: not something that we can do in eight to twelve

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Speaker 3: weeks that okay, that would have let the dog to

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Speaker 3: find something, but that would ultimately mean that you're getting a.

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Speaker 5: Lot of false reports.

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Speaker 3: So we want to make sure that before our dogs

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Speaker 3: do leave the training facility that the dogs have been

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Speaker 3: imprinted on almost every single smell available to them, as

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Speaker 3: well as.

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Speaker 5: Every single type of response that could be given.

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Speaker 4: So you just said something there that I haven't heard

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Speaker 4: before and something that I ponder in my own missing

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Speaker 4: person world that potentially, let's say, one of my thought

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Speaker 4: processes often is that my mum's body has been put

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Speaker 4: in the bush, and then say there's a fire that

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Speaker 4: goes through that bush area. I didn't realize, like, I

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Speaker 4: just literally scattered my dad's ashes last week, and this

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Speaker 4: is a bit weird, I guess for most people. But

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Speaker 4: I said to Chris after I did it, I said,

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Speaker 4: I probably should have kept some just to have some

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Speaker 4: DNA there for whatever reason. I'm just in this headspace

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Speaker 4: now of trying to keep everything and protect everything and

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Speaker 4: have things there for an emergency situation that you just

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Speaker 4: don't know you're about to fall into. And Chris was like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 4: I don't think they can get DNA from cremated ashes.

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Speaker 4: And then, but you've just said something that was interesting,

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Speaker 4: that the dogs can actually pick up a scent on

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Speaker 4: a cremated human. Is that the case of you have

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Speaker 4: you had to do anything like that.

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Speaker 3: That's a very interquestion question, and it's got quite fit

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Speaker 3: from parts to it, so I'll try and break it

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Speaker 3: down one at a time. Chris is very correct, and

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Speaker 3: you cannot get DNA from cremated remains if they've been

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Speaker 3: cremated in a formal facility where they get the right temperatures,

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Speaker 3: so DNA is completely destroyed when cremation occurs. However, our

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Speaker 3: dogs are trained on cremated remains, they still go off

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Speaker 3: acent because of the fact that we could be tasked

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Speaker 3: to search for cremated remains, and in actual fact not

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Speaker 3: Last year, the year before, we were tasked by a

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Speaker 3: new South Past Police State Crime Command to investigate and

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Speaker 3: take the dogs down to the building that was on

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Speaker 3: fire in Surrey Hills, and it was determined that there

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Speaker 3: were potential of missing persons in that building based on

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Speaker 3: the responses from the fire and rescue guys and based

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Speaker 3: from the police. It burnt for long enough and hot

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Speaker 3: enough for cremated remains to actually occur, So we have

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Speaker 3: to make sure that our dogs are set and trained

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Speaker 3: in that event that something does occur, even though there's

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Speaker 3: no DNA, so the dogs aren't smelling the DNA, they're

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Speaker 3: smelling off the volatile organ it compounds, even off by

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Speaker 3: human remains. It's one of their seven different training aids

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Speaker 3: that they do utilize. But the dogs are also learn

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Speaker 3: over time to bring all the sense sources together and

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Speaker 3: to understand the differences between this and that. Now, when

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Speaker 3: it comes to scattering remains, yes, we currently have a

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Speaker 3: case where we believe we've located and exactly what you've done.

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Speaker 5: A family member.

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Speaker 3: Had actually scattered some cremated remains in an area, and

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Speaker 3: that's now caused us a little bit of brief because

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Speaker 3: we don't know if it's the cremated remains or if

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Speaker 3: it's the other person that we're actually looking for. Now

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Speaker 3: we have to go through a completely different set of

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Speaker 3: forensic tests.

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Speaker 5: To understand that.

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Speaker 3: But when it comes to the Australia Bush, the great

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Speaker 3: thing was we actually were able to do the research

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Speaker 3: back in twenty nineteen.

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Speaker 4: I find it so interesting and such an important part

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Speaker 4: of this space in locating people and lost behaviors and

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Speaker 4: things like that. You've said that the dogs are trained

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Speaker 4: to search independently and problems solve. Can you give us

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Speaker 4: an example of a situation where the independent thinking was

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Speaker 4: critical in a search.

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Speaker 5: Pretty much every search we do.

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Speaker 3: Their independent thinking is critical for us because we need

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Speaker 3: them to be able to just work and tell us

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Speaker 3: what they're seeing in the environment, to be able to

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Speaker 3: listen to us, but at the same time wander off

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Speaker 3: and explore because most of the time the dogs are

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Speaker 3: off leash except for rufus and where I'm trying to

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Speaker 3: work in a more methodical way.

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Speaker 5: But when it comes to our dogs.

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Speaker 3: Thinking for themselves, if they get a smell, we want

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Speaker 3: them to be able to cross a creek or a

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Speaker 3: river and to actually.

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Speaker 5: Go and do that.

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Speaker 3: And that's why we use GPS's on our dogs so

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Speaker 3: that we can keep track of where they are, because

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Speaker 3: the dogs can be four or five six hundred meters

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Speaker 3: away from us at any one time, and yet we'll

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Speaker 3: go two or three hundred meters down the area and

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Speaker 3: the dogs will still be able to find us. But

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Speaker 3: when it comes to the dog's critical thinking, especially in

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Speaker 3: disaster zones, we need the dogs to be able to

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Speaker 3: figure out where that strongest sense source is, So we

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Speaker 3: need them to actually work through the scent in the environment.

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Speaker 3: So think about it when you go home tonight and

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Speaker 3: you're cooking a nice steak, say Chris has got it

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Speaker 3: out in the back in the barbecue. You'll come in

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Speaker 3: the front door and you'll smell it in the laundroom,

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Speaker 3: and you smell it in the front door area and

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Speaker 3: you go, oh, that's a nice steak that's cooking. But

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Speaker 3: then you'll slowly work you away until you actually do

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Speaker 3: find the barbecue that that meat is getting cooked that

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Speaker 3: and that's what we call the independent thinking, where you've

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Speaker 3: started to think about where the smell is and associated

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Speaker 3: that we're looking for. Then the dogs will go out

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Speaker 3: and find that themselves. So all of our dogs do

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Speaker 3: that on a search. They pretty much do that on

361
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Speaker 3: training as well, and it's because we don't want them.

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Speaker 5: To be completely obedient to.

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Speaker 1: Us, Chris.

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Speaker 4: On a practical level in the field, when your dogs

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Speaker 4: are deployed, who is there with them and what does

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Speaker 4: a typical search look like.

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Speaker 3: So we've been able to make a typical search quite

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Speaker 3: low profile. And the reason we do that is because

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Speaker 3: of the fact that it allows us to be very

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Speaker 3: tactical with our volunteers. Usually it's two people with a dog,

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Speaker 3: and that allows us to remain focused because.

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Speaker 5: What we've learned over time is the bigger the team.

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Speaker 3: There is is start to disturb the ground a little

374
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Speaker 3: bit too much, and it doesn't matter how big the

375
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Speaker 3: team is. Sometimes they get focused on other things. They

376
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Speaker 3: lose track when they're out on a search, and something

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Speaker 3: that's cical to us very so much so is decision points.

378
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Speaker 3: So there's very little communication goes on between a search

379
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Speaker 3: team because they've done that in the training already, But

380
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Speaker 3: when they're out in the field, they're actually looking for

381
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Speaker 3: the smallest of decision points when they're out there to

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Speaker 3: see how that affects a search. Because we can study

383
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Speaker 3: as much as we like an area, we can study

384
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Speaker 3: the lost person's behavior. Ultimately, it comes down to when

385
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Speaker 3: we're in that particular area, what would that missing person

386
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Speaker 3: have done and what where are the critical decision points

387
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Speaker 3: that have made them do what they do.

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Speaker 4: Or Search technicians obviously play a critical role as well.

389
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Speaker 4: Can you explain what they do and what qualifications or

390
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Speaker 4: training they have to go through.

391
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Speaker 3: Our search technicians are an amazing asset to have on

392
00:20:16,921 --> 00:20:19,880
Speaker 3: the team. Most of our search technicians are actually trained

393
00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:25,041
Speaker 3: aviation radio operators as well as lost person's behavior experts.

394
00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:28,400
Speaker 3: They're trained in map and navigation, they're trained in a

395
00:20:28,441 --> 00:20:30,600
Speaker 3: whole range of first aid, whether or not that be

396
00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:33,160
Speaker 3: first aid for the dog or first aid for the handler,

397
00:20:33,441 --> 00:20:36,120
Speaker 3: or first aid for the person that we've potentially located.

398
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Speaker 3: They go through a whole range of training programs, not

399
00:20:39,041 --> 00:20:42,080
Speaker 3: only through the Public Safety Training Program, which is the

400
00:20:42,120 --> 00:20:45,600
Speaker 3: ascor approved ones that we know about that generally occur,

401
00:20:45,961 --> 00:20:48,921
Speaker 3: but we've also got training through the Australian Search Dog

402
00:20:48,961 --> 00:20:52,521
Speaker 3: Federation that gives us specific training as to how to

403
00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:55,761
Speaker 3: work with search and rescue dogs and how to integrate

404
00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:59,961
Speaker 3: drones and dogs together in order to maximize the outcome.

405
00:21:00,521 --> 00:21:03,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, and we did that in our search. When I

406
00:21:03,201 --> 00:21:05,281
Speaker 4: went out with you guys, you know, I thought it

407
00:21:04,921 --> 00:21:08,561
Speaker 4: was amazing to witness and see all the GPS tracking

408
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:11,200
Speaker 4: and all over the laptop where both the dogs in

409
00:21:11,201 --> 00:21:14,080
Speaker 4: different colors had been, and then obviously putting the drones

410
00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:17,080
Speaker 4: up and mapping all of that as well. The technologies

411
00:21:17,521 --> 00:21:19,961
Speaker 4: is huge and obviously it's come a long way over

412
00:21:19,961 --> 00:21:20,680
Speaker 4: the years.

413
00:21:20,481 --> 00:21:22,161
Speaker 5: Right, It certainly has.

414
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,241
Speaker 3: So we've actually developed a drone program that not only

415
00:21:25,321 --> 00:21:28,721
Speaker 3: is utilizing the drones to search for and map the areas,

416
00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:32,481
Speaker 3: but it allows us to put it through artificial intelligence

417
00:21:32,681 --> 00:21:35,961
Speaker 3: to look for anything in that area, so it really

418
00:21:36,001 --> 00:21:39,360
Speaker 3: provides us with cutting edge technology for that, and we

419
00:21:39,481 --> 00:21:42,640
Speaker 3: found out recently been approached by the Australian Federal Police

420
00:21:42,921 --> 00:21:45,120
Speaker 3: to see if we would be willing to work with

421
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:47,761
Speaker 3: them and train them up on the artificial intelligence that

422
00:21:47,801 --> 00:21:51,041
Speaker 3: we utilize in order to equip them with the ability

423
00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:53,281
Speaker 3: to do that as well. So between the dogs and

424
00:21:53,281 --> 00:21:55,600
Speaker 3: the drones and all the other equipment that we do

425
00:21:55,721 --> 00:21:59,281
Speaker 3: have access to, we're able to cover almost eating single environment,

426
00:21:59,360 --> 00:22:01,680
Speaker 3: and we try and make sure that all of our

427
00:22:01,721 --> 00:22:04,761
Speaker 3: search technicians, whilst they have their preferred niche whether or

428
00:22:04,761 --> 00:22:07,241
Speaker 3: not they be a drone operator, or a dog operator

429
00:22:07,481 --> 00:22:10,121
Speaker 3: or potentially even a boat operator with the sonar, they're

430
00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,521
Speaker 3: allowed to not only training their own skill, but they're

431
00:22:12,521 --> 00:22:15,681
Speaker 3: also able and fully aware of how the other skills operate.

432
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Speaker 4: You've said that part of your drive came from witnessing

433
00:22:20,041 --> 00:22:24,360
Speaker 4: systemic failures. Can you reflect on that turning point and

434
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:26,281
Speaker 4: where you decided enough is enough?

435
00:22:27,681 --> 00:22:32,280
Speaker 3: Yeah? Look, the turning point for me was standing at

436
00:22:32,321 --> 00:22:37,161
Speaker 3: a missing person's grave. The family invited me to say

437
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:40,241
Speaker 3: goodbye to this young man and that's where I made

438
00:22:40,281 --> 00:22:43,600
Speaker 3: a personal vow on that day that enough was enough.

439
00:22:44,001 --> 00:22:45,681
Speaker 5: This man shouldn't be deceased.

440
00:22:46,041 --> 00:22:48,160
Speaker 3: This man should be at home with his family today

441
00:22:48,801 --> 00:22:52,160
Speaker 3: if it wasn't for the systemic failures of law enforcement

442
00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:54,480
Speaker 3: and the emergency services in general.

443
00:22:54,921 --> 00:22:56,761
Speaker 5: This was a young man that had.

444
00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,920
Speaker 3: Simply gone out for a walk, and after three days

445
00:22:59,921 --> 00:23:03,080
Speaker 3: of being missing, we believe that he received his own

446
00:23:03,120 --> 00:23:06,761
Speaker 3: GEO targeted text message. So he rang Triple OW and

447
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,521
Speaker 3: for three days he'd conserved his mobile phone so that

448
00:23:09,561 --> 00:23:12,120
Speaker 3: he always had enough charge in his battery, and we

449
00:23:12,201 --> 00:23:14,080
Speaker 3: know for a fact that he had fifty one percent

450
00:23:14,201 --> 00:23:16,561
Speaker 3: battery charge when he rang Triple OW and he was

451
00:23:16,561 --> 00:23:18,920
Speaker 3: on the phone to Triple O for over twenty minutes,

452
00:23:19,561 --> 00:23:22,760
Speaker 3: and he said to Triple O, I need a rescue helicopter.

453
00:23:24,041 --> 00:23:27,360
Speaker 3: I can't go back the way I came, and there's

454
00:23:27,360 --> 00:23:29,881
Speaker 3: cliffs surrounding me on three sides that are over ten

455
00:23:29,921 --> 00:23:33,281
Speaker 3: to twelve meters tall. I need a helicopter to come

456
00:23:33,281 --> 00:23:36,561
Speaker 3: and rescue me. That rescue helicopter should have been only

457
00:23:36,681 --> 00:23:39,400
Speaker 3: nine minutes away, because that's how far the closest base was.

458
00:23:39,481 --> 00:23:42,880
Speaker 3: F light time rescue helicopter never came, and four months

459
00:23:42,961 --> 00:23:46,600
Speaker 3: later I was standing at his grave saying goodbye to

460
00:23:46,681 --> 00:23:50,600
Speaker 3: him Ken and we must do the better. That same

461
00:23:50,721 --> 00:23:54,360
Speaker 3: family had to quit their jobs to continue searching for

462
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:54,801
Speaker 3: their son.

463
00:23:55,561 --> 00:23:56,680
Speaker 5: This family went out there.

464
00:23:56,721 --> 00:23:59,240
Speaker 3: We was searching for their own loved one because we

465
00:23:59,281 --> 00:24:02,520
Speaker 3: couldn't stay and continue that search for months on end

466
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,440
Speaker 3: because we have bills that Biquit pay as well. The

467
00:24:05,481 --> 00:24:09,761
Speaker 3: family utilized our GPS technology and by utilizing our GPS

468
00:24:09,801 --> 00:24:13,761
Speaker 3: technology were able to do a comprehensive search three meters

469
00:24:13,801 --> 00:24:16,240
Speaker 3: four meters away from each other each day, day in

470
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:18,880
Speaker 3: and they were searching six days a week looking for

471
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:23,360
Speaker 3: their sun. And sadly, they located another deceased man, another

472
00:24:23,441 --> 00:24:26,161
Speaker 3: man that had been missing less than five hundred meters

473
00:24:26,201 --> 00:24:29,640
Speaker 3: from where his vehicle was now. Police and emergency services

474
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:33,521
Speaker 3: had already allegedly searched that area five times. But here's

475
00:24:33,561 --> 00:24:35,920
Speaker 3: a family that now got to live with that for

476
00:24:35,961 --> 00:24:38,121
Speaker 3: the rest of their lives as well as they're missing

477
00:24:38,521 --> 00:24:42,281
Speaker 3: their sun that was eventually located. But families shouldn't have

478
00:24:42,360 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 3: to go through this. That's the heartbreak that you know,

479
00:24:46,001 --> 00:24:47,481
Speaker 3: at what point is enough enough?

480
00:24:47,681 --> 00:24:49,360
Speaker 5: And for me was that?

481
00:24:50,481 --> 00:24:54,400
Speaker 4: So I guess Chris, A good question to link into

482
00:24:54,441 --> 00:24:58,521
Speaker 4: that is how do you sustain the organization financially? And

483
00:24:58,921 --> 00:25:01,761
Speaker 4: I know you don't get government funding. So what does

484
00:25:01,801 --> 00:25:04,961
Speaker 4: fundraising look like and how big is the financial strain?

485
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,600
Speaker 3: Fundraising for US probably takes up sixty to seventy percent

486
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,041
Speaker 3: of our time because we don't charge for our services,

487
00:25:12,041 --> 00:25:15,321
Speaker 3: where one hundred percent free volunteer organization that is there

488
00:25:15,360 --> 00:25:19,160
Speaker 3: to assist the families where we can. But fundraising for

489
00:25:19,281 --> 00:25:23,561
Speaker 3: US takes many, many different forms. It can be at

490
00:25:23,561 --> 00:25:25,920
Speaker 3: the Blacktown Show or the Oberon Show, or a local

491
00:25:25,961 --> 00:25:28,321
Speaker 3: show where we'll put up the tent and the marquee

492
00:25:28,360 --> 00:25:30,721
Speaker 3: and we'll put some demonstrations on with the dogs and

493
00:25:31,360 --> 00:25:34,041
Speaker 3: ask for a donation. We do sell a supporter ribbon

494
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 3: on our website for ten dollars to try and raise

495
00:25:37,041 --> 00:25:38,281
Speaker 3: some much needed funds.

496
00:25:38,761 --> 00:25:39,441
Speaker 5: But one of the.

497
00:25:39,441 --> 00:25:42,521
Speaker 3: Primary fundraising sources is I actually go out and talk

498
00:25:42,561 --> 00:25:46,681
Speaker 3: about missing persons across a lot of community groups, whether

499
00:25:46,761 --> 00:25:49,321
Speaker 3: or not that be Probose, whether or not that be

500
00:25:49,521 --> 00:25:52,880
Speaker 3: Rotary or Inner Wheel, and actually sit down and talk

501
00:25:52,921 --> 00:25:56,561
Speaker 3: to them at their weekly meetings. I think I'm almost

502
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,281
Speaker 3: about eighty or ninety in the last twelve months alone

503
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:03,120
Speaker 3: getting the awareness out there for missing persons and the

504
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,120
Speaker 3: issues that they face because many of them, unfortunately don't

505
00:26:06,360 --> 00:26:09,801
Speaker 3: listen to podcasts or have a different media stream than us,

506
00:26:10,041 --> 00:26:13,041
Speaker 3: and I really appreciate sitting down there and talking with

507
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,721
Speaker 3: them and listening to their questions at the end to

508
00:26:15,801 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 3: find it out. But they're also very good ways for

509
00:26:18,561 --> 00:26:22,680
Speaker 3: us to fundraise. Unfortunately, traveling around is quite expensive, and

510
00:26:22,721 --> 00:26:24,801
Speaker 3: we've got to try and cover those fuel costs and

511
00:26:24,801 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 3: the accommodation costs for when we do get out there.

512
00:26:26,921 --> 00:26:32,360
Speaker 4: So for someone who's worked over fifteen years in this space, now,

513
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:34,561
Speaker 4: how do you take care of your own well being

514
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,321
Speaker 4: and that of your team given the emotionally heavy nature

515
00:26:38,360 --> 00:26:38,960
Speaker 4: of your work.

516
00:26:40,120 --> 00:26:44,721
Speaker 3: Dogs everybody loves the dogs, but the dogs keep us grounded.

517
00:26:44,921 --> 00:26:48,721
Speaker 3: They keep us happy and content, and they're able to

518
00:26:48,801 --> 00:26:53,360
Speaker 3: keep us definitely level headed. But we've got an amazing organization.

519
00:26:53,761 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 3: The team that are around me are so supportive and

520
00:26:56,521 --> 00:26:59,161
Speaker 3: so understanding, and we're led by one of the best

521
00:26:59,241 --> 00:27:02,441
Speaker 3: when it comes to our mental health, and that's our patron,

522
00:27:03,201 --> 00:27:07,720
Speaker 3: Detective Chief Inspector Gary Rayman, who's a retired police officer is.

523
00:27:07,681 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 5: Also a retired airbo.

524
00:27:09,321 --> 00:27:13,721
Speaker 3: He's currently the chaplain for many organizations, including the retired

525
00:27:13,721 --> 00:27:16,360
Speaker 3: and former police as well as a couple of others.

526
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 3: So he actually gives us a lot of assistance and

527
00:27:20,281 --> 00:27:23,601
Speaker 3: a lot of support. And for those that don't know Gary,

528
00:27:23,961 --> 00:27:28,201
Speaker 3: Gary was actually the person that was in the railway

529
00:27:28,241 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 3: carriage at the Granville Trained disaster. Gary's been around this

530
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 3: space for a long time. He's also led and understands

531
00:27:36,721 --> 00:27:39,961
Speaker 3: from a police perspective what goes on. But he's able

532
00:27:40,001 --> 00:27:43,440
Speaker 3: to keep us grounded. And every now and then, just

533
00:27:43,561 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 3: out of the blue, I'll go a phone call for

534
00:27:45,321 --> 00:27:48,761
Speaker 3: a welfare check and it's good. Our Gaza just given

535
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 3: us a call to make sure that everything's going well.

536
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 3: And we have an amazing support network and we do

537
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 3: appreciate having that because that's very valuable to continue what

538
00:27:58,721 --> 00:28:01,801
Speaker 3: we're doing. There has been times there lately where I'm

539
00:28:01,801 --> 00:28:03,001
Speaker 3: pretty sure I'm starting to.

540
00:28:02,921 --> 00:28:06,441
Speaker 5: Go baled from what's going on altogether.

541
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 4: I want to ask a touchy subject, how do you

542
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:17,120
Speaker 4: maintain relationships with law enforcement agencies or in some cases pushback.

543
00:28:17,281 --> 00:28:22,001
Speaker 4: Have there been any successful partnerships where has friction come in.

544
00:28:22,801 --> 00:28:25,360
Speaker 3: It's quite easy to manage a relationship that's just not there.

545
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,481
Speaker 3: It's definitely a one sided relationship. We keep pushing for

546
00:28:29,561 --> 00:28:31,761
Speaker 3: somebody to come and say gooday, somebody to come and

547
00:28:31,801 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 3: meet with us. However, the police don't seem to be

548
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:38,041
Speaker 3: wanting to be amenable to that. So that's where we've

549
00:28:38,521 --> 00:28:40,641
Speaker 3: we've sort of been forced to drag them to the

550
00:28:40,641 --> 00:28:43,081
Speaker 3: table for this parliamentary inquiry so that we can have

551
00:28:43,121 --> 00:28:45,881
Speaker 3: that conversation, so that we can highlight just how many

552
00:28:45,961 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 3: times we've tried to reach out to an organization forget

553
00:28:49,761 --> 00:28:53,201
Speaker 3: that to happen. There could be some really good partnerships

554
00:28:53,361 --> 00:28:57,681
Speaker 3: when we've certainly been boots on the ground and helping

555
00:28:57,721 --> 00:29:00,521
Speaker 3: the families, the police boots on the ground, you know,

556
00:29:00,561 --> 00:29:03,121
Speaker 3: at nine o'clock, ten o'clock on a Sunday night, let's

557
00:29:03,161 --> 00:29:06,281
Speaker 3: see us out there looking for this particular person with

558
00:29:06,321 --> 00:29:09,121
Speaker 3: Alzheimer's or dementia, and they know that we're here to.

559
00:29:09,081 --> 00:29:09,761
Speaker 5: Do the right thing.

560
00:29:10,281 --> 00:29:13,801
Speaker 3: We'll share information with us, just like we find information out,

561
00:29:13,841 --> 00:29:16,321
Speaker 3: we'll share with those on the ground. But it's up

562
00:29:16,361 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 3: in the middle management and the upper management that we

563
00:29:18,521 --> 00:29:21,681
Speaker 3: seem to find that there's problems and we're not sure

564
00:29:21,761 --> 00:29:23,041
Speaker 3: what that conflict is.

565
00:29:23,121 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 5: Because we're always under the impression.

566
00:29:25,961 --> 00:29:28,041
Speaker 3: That if you've got a problem due diligence, go and

567
00:29:28,081 --> 00:29:30,361
Speaker 3: find out, go and research, and so you can find out,

568
00:29:30,521 --> 00:29:33,761
Speaker 3: so eventually we will resolve it.

569
00:29:33,401 --> 00:29:36,001
Speaker 5: But at the moment, no, Can.

570
00:29:35,881 --> 00:29:38,761
Speaker 4: You share a little bit more about the National Missing

571
00:29:38,761 --> 00:29:42,801
Speaker 4: Person Symposium that we did last year in November and

572
00:29:42,841 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 4: what were the major insights or outcomes that came of that.

573
00:29:46,561 --> 00:29:51,041
Speaker 3: The National Missing Person Symposium was a great time. Unfortunately,

574
00:29:51,041 --> 00:29:54,041
Speaker 3: it was a very stressful time for families to be

575
00:29:54,161 --> 00:29:58,681
Speaker 3: really liiving some painful experiences. But the National Missing Person

576
00:29:58,761 --> 00:30:02,641
Speaker 3: Symposium gave people the opportunity to share their story, to

577
00:30:02,681 --> 00:30:06,041
Speaker 3: share their experiences, and to share what they've been through

578
00:30:06,121 --> 00:30:09,841
Speaker 3: over the last three months, six months, ten years, twenty years,

579
00:30:09,921 --> 00:30:12,401
Speaker 3: thirty years, and to be able to actually tell you

580
00:30:12,441 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 3: all of that together semi formal environment where all that

581
00:30:16,601 --> 00:30:20,041
Speaker 3: information was tabulated and then it was put together into

582
00:30:20,121 --> 00:30:22,961
Speaker 3: a report that was brought out by the Center of

583
00:30:23,081 --> 00:30:27,081
Speaker 3: Missing Persons in March this year. Now that highlighted that

584
00:30:27,121 --> 00:30:30,321
Speaker 3: there was an issue within the missing person space, not

585
00:30:30,441 --> 00:30:36,001
Speaker 3: only from the initial search where something happened to you know,

586
00:30:36,361 --> 00:30:38,601
Speaker 3: going up to the coronial in quest and then pass

587
00:30:38,681 --> 00:30:41,721
Speaker 3: that coroner's in quests to we do need to have

588
00:30:42,521 --> 00:30:45,361
Speaker 3: a really good look at the whole space in together

589
00:30:45,921 --> 00:30:47,561
Speaker 3: and to figure out how we can make.

590
00:30:47,481 --> 00:30:51,361
Speaker 4: It better, and I think you know, it was a

591
00:30:51,401 --> 00:30:54,321
Speaker 4: really big eye opener for a lot of people. It

592
00:30:54,361 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 4: was quite an emotional day on the Saturday when we

593
00:30:57,481 --> 00:31:00,801
Speaker 4: had people up there talking about our stories and what

594
00:31:00,841 --> 00:31:04,001
Speaker 4: we've had to roll through, as you say, for over

595
00:31:04,081 --> 00:31:04,761
Speaker 4: fifty years.

596
00:31:05,121 --> 00:31:07,161
Speaker 1: I just felt that it.

597
00:31:07,161 --> 00:31:10,721
Speaker 4: Was kind of like the start of bringing some awareness

598
00:31:10,801 --> 00:31:14,761
Speaker 4: to that table and pushing We had the local mayor

599
00:31:14,801 --> 00:31:17,601
Speaker 4: there that you'd been working really hard to get him

600
00:31:17,721 --> 00:31:19,841
Speaker 4: to come along and make sure that he understood what

601
00:31:19,841 --> 00:31:21,881
Speaker 4: we were trying to do, and it just seemed to

602
00:31:21,921 --> 00:31:24,321
Speaker 4: me like it was the start of something that was

603
00:31:24,441 --> 00:31:28,121
Speaker 4: rolling in. Like we'd already had the petition you'd set

604
00:31:28,201 --> 00:31:30,081
Speaker 4: up to try and get as many signatures as we

605
00:31:30,161 --> 00:31:34,281
Speaker 4: could to try and get this parliamentary inquiry happening. And

606
00:31:34,321 --> 00:31:36,801
Speaker 4: I know that's been your main push is to get

607
00:31:36,801 --> 00:31:39,841
Speaker 4: this happening because their needs change. There needs to be

608
00:31:41,081 --> 00:31:42,081
Speaker 4: something happening.

609
00:31:42,841 --> 00:31:45,401
Speaker 3: There definitely needs to be something happening. I mean, we've

610
00:31:45,441 --> 00:31:48,241
Speaker 3: been doing the same thing over and over again, expecting

611
00:31:48,281 --> 00:31:52,161
Speaker 3: a different result, and we're not. Sadly, our missing person

612
00:31:52,241 --> 00:31:56,281
Speaker 3: numbers are going up every single year. When I first

613
00:31:56,281 --> 00:32:00,001
Speaker 3: started Search Dog Sydney, there was thirty seven thousand people

614
00:32:00,001 --> 00:32:02,841
Speaker 3: a year reported missing and last year that number was

615
00:32:02,921 --> 00:32:06,081
Speaker 3: up to fifty nine thousand people. We do need to

616
00:32:06,201 --> 00:32:08,961
Speaker 3: change the way in which we're dealing with our missing persons.

617
00:32:09,121 --> 00:32:11,081
Speaker 3: We do need to change the way in which we're

618
00:32:11,121 --> 00:32:14,641
Speaker 3: supporting our families at missing persons. And yes, it was

619
00:32:14,681 --> 00:32:18,441
Speaker 3: definitely the culmination of a lot of work of starting

620
00:32:18,481 --> 00:32:21,361
Speaker 3: the petition back in May, so, then having the symposium,

621
00:32:21,641 --> 00:32:23,481
Speaker 3: so then having the report come out.

622
00:32:23,761 --> 00:32:25,921
Speaker 5: Because that momentum has continued.

623
00:32:26,641 --> 00:32:29,521
Speaker 4: We just thought if we can have a loouder voice

624
00:32:29,601 --> 00:32:33,521
Speaker 4: and get some support in there in that space, it's

625
00:32:33,561 --> 00:32:36,601
Speaker 4: going to make a difference. And I'm really happy to

626
00:32:36,921 --> 00:32:40,801
Speaker 4: say that thanks the likes of yourself and members of

627
00:32:40,841 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 4: the Legislative Council in particularly Jeremy Buckingham MP, and the

628
00:32:45,961 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 4: support of even the new South Wales Premier Chris Mins,

629
00:32:49,361 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 4: along with all those people who signed the petition that

630
00:32:52,001 --> 00:32:55,961
Speaker 4: we really pushed hard for online, we're moving forward, Chris,

631
00:32:56,001 --> 00:32:59,641
Speaker 4: and I'm really excited about that. There was a documentary

632
00:32:59,681 --> 00:33:03,361
Speaker 4: on Channel nine that aired in July this year called

633
00:33:03,481 --> 00:33:07,681
Speaker 4: Byron Bay Murders because mainly on sixty seven unsolved homicides

634
00:33:07,721 --> 00:33:11,601
Speaker 4: and missing Women along the East coastline of New South

635
00:33:11,641 --> 00:33:16,281
Speaker 4: Wales and surely after this the parliamentary inquiry was announced.

636
00:33:16,801 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 4: So on the fifteenth of October last month, finally an

637
00:33:20,321 --> 00:33:23,081
Speaker 4: inquiry into the dozens of murdered and missing loved ones

638
00:33:23,121 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 4: throughout New South Wales will now go ahead. Now the

639
00:33:26,761 --> 00:33:30,641
Speaker 4: inquiry is a huge step. What changes do you hope

640
00:33:31,201 --> 00:33:31,961
Speaker 4: to come of it?

641
00:33:33,361 --> 00:33:37,561
Speaker 3: We're hoping for full systemic reform. We have been working

642
00:33:37,681 --> 00:33:40,641
Speaker 3: very hard in the background for the last several years

643
00:33:40,641 --> 00:33:45,081
Speaker 3: with many organizations across the state to arrange and to

644
00:33:45,281 --> 00:33:47,361
Speaker 3: organize so that we can do things a lot better

645
00:33:47,401 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 3: than what we have done in the past. We've recognized

646
00:33:50,001 --> 00:33:54,281
Speaker 3: that families deserve a better response to missing persons. We

647
00:33:54,441 --> 00:33:58,361
Speaker 3: understand that they need better resources when somebody does go missing,

648
00:33:58,561 --> 00:34:01,361
Speaker 3: but also they also need better mental health support, better

649
00:34:01,401 --> 00:34:04,281
Speaker 3: support in general for when you're going through that. Family

650
00:34:04,401 --> 00:34:07,601
Speaker 3: liaisons really need to come to the forefront and start

651
00:34:07,641 --> 00:34:11,001
Speaker 3: being a lot more proactive in doing that. But a

652
00:34:11,041 --> 00:34:13,321
Speaker 3: lot of other things have come out that we'd also

653
00:34:13,521 --> 00:34:16,281
Speaker 3: like to see because there's definitely a lack of oversight

654
00:34:16,561 --> 00:34:21,441
Speaker 3: into these investigations and I've personally experienced what it's like

655
00:34:21,561 --> 00:34:25,321
Speaker 3: going through a law enforcement Conduct Commission complaint because in

656
00:34:25,361 --> 00:34:28,801
Speaker 3: the last two years, I've actually lodged two pretty serious

657
00:34:28,881 --> 00:34:33,401
Speaker 3: law enforcement conduct Commission complaints in regards to missing persons

658
00:34:34,001 --> 00:34:37,241
Speaker 3: and some of the miles forces attached to my missing persons,

659
00:34:37,241 --> 00:34:40,681
Speaker 3: and the other one was responsed by emergency services to

660
00:34:40,801 --> 00:34:43,561
Speaker 3: another missing person that is still to this day not

661
00:34:43,601 --> 00:34:46,641
Speaker 3: on the missing person's registry. Now, we need to have

662
00:34:46,721 --> 00:34:50,121
Speaker 3: the oversight into these organizations, and without oversight, we're not

663
00:34:50,161 --> 00:34:54,361
Speaker 3: going to get anywhere, because if I'm struggling to find and.

664
00:34:54,281 --> 00:34:57,041
Speaker 5: Get answers, then a family's got no chance.

665
00:34:57,681 --> 00:34:59,801
Speaker 3: Now, a family shouldn't have to be going through that,

666
00:34:59,801 --> 00:35:02,161
Speaker 3: a family should be able to get the support that

667
00:35:02,201 --> 00:35:05,201
Speaker 3: they need in any question they have answered. We have

668
00:35:05,281 --> 00:35:07,521
Speaker 3: full faith in that the system is going to be

669
00:35:07,641 --> 00:35:10,961
Speaker 3: doing the best that they can. But what we've realized

670
00:35:11,081 --> 00:35:14,121
Speaker 3: is that there's a lot of roadblocks in the way. Sally,

671
00:35:14,201 --> 00:35:18,321
Speaker 3: I've seen you receive it firsthand from the Coronal inquest

672
00:35:18,921 --> 00:35:21,881
Speaker 3: and the coroner said that police have got to investigate

673
00:35:21,881 --> 00:35:25,481
Speaker 3: this further. And the police tick that box. They sent

674
00:35:25,561 --> 00:35:28,401
Speaker 3: an email back to the coroner within their statutory six

675
00:35:28,441 --> 00:35:31,721
Speaker 3: months to say, yes, we're going to investigate it.

676
00:35:31,961 --> 00:35:34,561
Speaker 5: But that's it. That's as far as the oversight reaches.

677
00:35:35,201 --> 00:35:38,321
Speaker 3: The Premier's Department is responsible for that oversight, but we

678
00:35:38,401 --> 00:35:42,361
Speaker 3: need to see that the investigations do continue, that the

679
00:35:42,441 --> 00:35:47,641
Speaker 3: coronal recommendations are followed through. But those recommendations aren't getting

680
00:35:47,641 --> 00:35:50,201
Speaker 3: followed through and it's not an oversight body that is

681
00:35:50,241 --> 00:35:54,561
Speaker 3: actually looking into what's happening, because just ending a letter

682
00:35:54,601 --> 00:35:57,241
Speaker 3: back to the coroner saying here, we're going to do something.

683
00:35:57,441 --> 00:35:58,481
Speaker 5: Is not doing something.

684
00:36:00,721 --> 00:36:03,681
Speaker 4: And what I found particularly harrowing in my case was that,

685
00:36:03,801 --> 00:36:06,841
Speaker 4: you know, I've got the coroner sitting there saying to

686
00:36:06,921 --> 00:36:10,841
Speaker 4: me that it's back with the homicide team for further investigation.

687
00:36:11,561 --> 00:36:13,401
Speaker 1: Before we walked in, we were told.

688
00:36:13,281 --> 00:36:15,801
Speaker 4: That you know, they've got eight hundred cases and they

689
00:36:15,801 --> 00:36:18,681
Speaker 4: need to prioritize. I said, well, can you just talk

690
00:36:18,721 --> 00:36:20,681
Speaker 4: to me about that in layman's terms? And it was

691
00:36:20,801 --> 00:36:23,921
Speaker 4: fed to me that your mum's case is open but inactive.

692
00:36:25,081 --> 00:36:27,321
Speaker 4: That's a very hard thing for a family to have

693
00:36:27,361 --> 00:36:29,441
Speaker 4: to process. And as you just clearly said, like I

694
00:36:29,561 --> 00:36:33,001
Speaker 4: found out that that letter actually goes to the Attorney

695
00:36:33,041 --> 00:36:36,601
Speaker 4: General as well, and so the Attorney General is reading

696
00:36:36,641 --> 00:36:39,881
Speaker 4: this from New South Wales Police and they'd remove her

697
00:36:40,081 --> 00:36:43,321
Speaker 4: full statement that was sent to then the Attorney General

698
00:36:43,641 --> 00:36:45,361
Speaker 4: saying ongoing investigation.

699
00:36:46,041 --> 00:36:47,521
Speaker 1: I was quite concerned with that.

700
00:36:47,521 --> 00:36:50,041
Speaker 4: And you Johnie, Chris and I were sitting at dinner

701
00:36:50,601 --> 00:36:53,281
Speaker 4: actually in Armadale when we found this, and we were

702
00:36:53,361 --> 00:36:56,121
Speaker 4: chatting about it at dinner about the fact that there

703
00:36:56,201 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 4: was multiple cases of the same language being fed back

704
00:37:00,041 --> 00:37:02,681
Speaker 4: to the Attorney General, which is giving him a complete

705
00:37:02,721 --> 00:37:03,121
Speaker 4: little purr.

706
00:37:03,161 --> 00:37:04,841
Speaker 1: Whoever is the attorney general at the.

707
00:37:04,801 --> 00:37:08,481
Speaker 4: Time in each state gives them a very different view

708
00:37:08,801 --> 00:37:13,161
Speaker 4: on the current situation and therefore who's overseeing what the

709
00:37:13,201 --> 00:37:16,241
Speaker 4: police are doing. And to be perfectly honest, they shouldn't

710
00:37:16,281 --> 00:37:19,521
Speaker 4: pick and choose what case is important to them as

711
00:37:19,521 --> 00:37:23,761
Speaker 4: opposed to what's not important, because everybody matters. And I

712
00:37:23,801 --> 00:37:26,561
Speaker 4: think it's pretty disgraceful that they get to pick and

713
00:37:26,641 --> 00:37:30,001
Speaker 4: choose what case because they use the excuse that there's

714
00:37:30,081 --> 00:37:32,521
Speaker 4: lack of resources, and yes, tick, we all know that

715
00:37:32,561 --> 00:37:34,681
Speaker 4: there is a lack of resource and we need more funding.

716
00:37:34,801 --> 00:37:37,081
Speaker 4: But there shouldn't be a pick and choose. If the

717
00:37:37,121 --> 00:37:40,081
Speaker 4: coroner is deeming after spending a million dollars to go

718
00:37:40,121 --> 00:37:43,281
Speaker 4: through an inquest to determine what's happened, it shouldn't just

719
00:37:43,321 --> 00:37:44,441
Speaker 4: be parked to the side.

720
00:37:44,881 --> 00:37:46,161
Speaker 1: There should be action being done.

721
00:37:46,201 --> 00:37:50,721
Speaker 4: And then, unfortunately, without these pushes, what's happening, what's going on?

722
00:37:51,161 --> 00:37:54,921
Speaker 3: Not a lot exactly. And the sad thing is that

723
00:37:55,041 --> 00:38:01,281
Speaker 3: police and government are hiding behind words, hiding behind words.

724
00:38:00,921 --> 00:38:02,401
Speaker 5: That say active investigation.

725
00:38:02,881 --> 00:38:06,641
Speaker 3: Now, an active investigation is an investigation in my understanding

726
00:38:06,681 --> 00:38:10,041
Speaker 3: that as a detective allocated to it, that is looking

727
00:38:10,081 --> 00:38:14,521
Speaker 3: into information. It's not a case that of the folder

728
00:38:14,561 --> 00:38:17,761
Speaker 3: is sitting over in there and there's ten boxes in storage.

729
00:38:18,081 --> 00:38:21,041
Speaker 3: That's not an active investigation. That's a cold case. So

730
00:38:21,041 --> 00:38:23,321
Speaker 3: we need to start being honest and truthful with the

731
00:38:23,361 --> 00:38:27,281
Speaker 3: what we're saying to these families is actually occurring. There's

732
00:38:27,321 --> 00:38:29,681
Speaker 3: cases out there, and I've heard this from police that

733
00:38:29,721 --> 00:38:34,281
Speaker 3: were tasked in that particular department that they solved a

734
00:38:34,361 --> 00:38:38,601
Speaker 3: case by accident because they're on sick leaf and somebody

735
00:38:38,721 --> 00:38:41,281
Speaker 3: just grabbed a cold case folder and threw it out

736
00:38:41,321 --> 00:38:42,681
Speaker 3: of him and said, hey, have a look at this

737
00:38:42,721 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 3: for a while. Well, luckily it was a good cop

738
00:38:45,001 --> 00:38:48,361
Speaker 3: that was given that case and he investigated it thoroughly.

739
00:38:48,761 --> 00:38:51,401
Speaker 5: But we need to do have a deep.

740
00:38:51,241 --> 00:38:56,361
Speaker 3: Dive into the working, operational workings of this organization to

741
00:38:56,441 --> 00:38:58,961
Speaker 3: find out what is a cold case, what isn't a

742
00:38:59,001 --> 00:39:01,841
Speaker 3: cold case, what is an active investigation. Let's get some

743
00:39:01,921 --> 00:39:07,121
Speaker 3: honest terminology utilized, because it's not just the families getting told,

744
00:39:07,161 --> 00:39:10,801
Speaker 3: but it's an active investigation. Over the last eight eight months,

745
00:39:10,801 --> 00:39:13,241
Speaker 3: I've lost track how many questions we've had asked on

746
00:39:13,281 --> 00:39:17,641
Speaker 3: our behalf from the New South Wales Parliament. Now within

747
00:39:17,721 --> 00:39:20,721
Speaker 3: New South Wales Parliament, even the Police Minister is hiding

748
00:39:20,761 --> 00:39:24,561
Speaker 3: behind the fact that it's behind a coronial investigation. So

749
00:39:24,681 --> 00:39:27,481
Speaker 3: I can't answer that when in actual fact there's a

750
00:39:27,521 --> 00:39:30,921
Speaker 3: document called the n Manual that says, well, no, in

751
00:39:30,961 --> 00:39:34,241
Speaker 3: actual fact this is separate to coronial investigation. You should

752
00:39:34,281 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 3: be having this information provided there's a real convoluted way

753
00:39:38,561 --> 00:39:42,481
Speaker 3: in which our law enforcement and some of our politicians

754
00:39:42,521 --> 00:39:45,761
Speaker 3: are actually hiding behind. I hate to say word salad

755
00:39:46,321 --> 00:39:49,121
Speaker 3: to try and confuse the issue, and that doesn't help

756
00:39:49,121 --> 00:39:52,481
Speaker 3: anybody that doesn't solve the case, that doesn't provide them

757
00:39:52,521 --> 00:39:57,481
Speaker 3: with any adequate resources. And sadly I believe that I

758
00:39:57,481 --> 00:39:58,961
Speaker 3: think it comes down to a little bit of our

759
00:39:58,961 --> 00:40:01,601
Speaker 3: brand new Commissioner, mister Malanion here in New South Wales.

760
00:40:01,641 --> 00:40:04,561
Speaker 3: It does need to explain a little bit more to

761
00:40:04,721 --> 00:40:08,521
Speaker 3: the the New South Walest community why our families are

762
00:40:08,561 --> 00:40:11,361
Speaker 3: in the predicament that they're in. Because he was the

763
00:40:11,361 --> 00:40:14,361
Speaker 3: boss of State Crime Command when they disbanded pretty much

764
00:40:14,401 --> 00:40:18,241
Speaker 3: the Missing Persons Unit and renamed it the Missing Person's

765
00:40:18,281 --> 00:40:21,241
Speaker 3: Registry and sent all of these cold cases out to

766
00:40:21,281 --> 00:40:22,481
Speaker 3: local area commands.

767
00:40:23,601 --> 00:40:27,481
Speaker 4: I agree with you, and you know, it is quite traumatizing.

768
00:40:27,641 --> 00:40:31,361
Speaker 4: I guess in a way that handballed by words a

769
00:40:31,361 --> 00:40:33,281
Speaker 4: lot of the time, you know, and they sit there

770
00:40:33,281 --> 00:40:34,881
Speaker 4: and go, oh, well, we can't discuss it because it's

771
00:40:34,881 --> 00:40:35,921
Speaker 4: an open investigation.

772
00:40:36,041 --> 00:40:37,361
Speaker 1: But they're not actually doing anything.

773
00:40:37,601 --> 00:40:40,961
Speaker 4: It's quite hard for families to have to deal with

774
00:40:41,001 --> 00:40:42,761
Speaker 4: that on top of the fact that they actually have

775
00:40:42,801 --> 00:40:44,081
Speaker 4: a missing loved one.

776
00:40:44,441 --> 00:40:47,281
Speaker 3: And it's very similar to the Cheryl Grammer case where

777
00:40:47,721 --> 00:40:49,681
Speaker 3: after Mercury had been let out of jail and the

778
00:40:49,681 --> 00:40:52,641
Speaker 3: Supreme Court action had occurred, they did a full review

779
00:40:52,681 --> 00:40:55,121
Speaker 3: of the case. Apparently they did a full review of

780
00:40:55,161 --> 00:40:58,281
Speaker 3: the case, and that review took four years. Now, in

781
00:40:58,361 --> 00:41:01,681
Speaker 3: the meantime, there was a podcast called Fairy Meadow came out.

782
00:41:02,121 --> 00:41:06,361
Speaker 3: That podcast found four additional witnesses. At no point in

783
00:41:06,441 --> 00:41:09,361
Speaker 3: time did the New South Wales Police reach out to

784
00:41:09,401 --> 00:41:13,121
Speaker 3: those four additional witnesses to find out one of them

785
00:41:13,161 --> 00:41:17,321
Speaker 3: was quite critical in regards to providing some information. At

786
00:41:17,361 --> 00:41:19,801
Speaker 3: no point did they actually speak with that witness and

787
00:41:19,841 --> 00:41:21,841
Speaker 3: they said, no, we've reviewed the case and there's nothing

788
00:41:21,881 --> 00:41:25,121
Speaker 3: to find. So how borough are we being when we're

789
00:41:25,121 --> 00:41:27,681
Speaker 3: doing our reviews? How borough are we when we're doing

790
00:41:27,721 --> 00:41:31,441
Speaker 3: our cult cases. It's concerning because we've seen it in

791
00:41:31,481 --> 00:41:34,361
Speaker 3: the Special Commission of Inquiry in the gay hate crimes

792
00:41:34,361 --> 00:41:37,161
Speaker 3: of the seventies and eighties. We get told that there's

793
00:41:37,241 --> 00:41:40,681
Speaker 3: changes occurring, But I'm not having a lot of faith

794
00:41:40,721 --> 00:41:43,321
Speaker 3: because in twenty nineteen that when a report was done

795
00:41:43,401 --> 00:41:47,121
Speaker 3: by the new South Wales Police, they advised internally that

796
00:41:47,161 --> 00:41:50,481
Speaker 3: they were more than nine hundred years behind in investigating

797
00:41:50,481 --> 00:41:52,041
Speaker 3: and solving these cases.

798
00:41:52,761 --> 00:41:54,041
Speaker 5: And yet when we listen to.

799
00:41:54,161 --> 00:41:57,041
Speaker 3: David Laidlaw giving his evidence which I played to you

800
00:41:57,081 --> 00:42:00,201
Speaker 3: guys at the National Missing Person Symposium, he was too

801
00:42:00,281 --> 00:42:03,041
Speaker 3: scared to ask for more resources. He was too scared

802
00:42:03,281 --> 00:42:06,681
Speaker 3: to highlight that there's a problem. If the bosses of

803
00:42:06,721 --> 00:42:10,521
Speaker 3: these departments are too scared to ask for more resources

804
00:42:10,521 --> 00:42:13,961
Speaker 3: and ask for assistance, then what is really going on

805
00:42:14,481 --> 00:42:16,481
Speaker 3: That shows to me that we really do have a

806
00:42:16,521 --> 00:42:21,201
Speaker 3: systemic problem that needs to be investigated and investigated thoroughly.

807
00:42:21,681 --> 00:42:23,921
Speaker 3: That's not picking on the police. That's plicking on a

808
00:42:23,961 --> 00:42:25,641
Speaker 3: system that needs to be changed.

809
00:42:26,521 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 4: So let's get back to the inquiry because I wanted

810
00:42:29,001 --> 00:42:32,321
Speaker 4: to talk to you about the fact that media are

811
00:42:32,321 --> 00:42:37,041
Speaker 4: suggesting and Jeremy Buckingham himself has said that the inquiry

812
00:42:37,121 --> 00:42:40,561
Speaker 4: will mainly focus on Ivan Malatt. Ivan Malatt was one

813
00:42:40,601 --> 00:42:42,321
Speaker 4: of Australia's most notorious murderers.

814
00:42:42,361 --> 00:42:43,281
Speaker 1: He's now deceased.

815
00:42:43,641 --> 00:42:47,801
Speaker 4: He was convicted for seven counts of murder, but it

816
00:42:47,881 --> 00:42:50,321
Speaker 4: is suggested that there are potentially a lot more victims

817
00:42:50,361 --> 00:42:54,641
Speaker 4: that could possibly be related to him. There's a reference

818
00:42:54,681 --> 00:42:57,721
Speaker 4: that I want you to explain for everyone, Chris. It's

819
00:42:57,761 --> 00:43:01,081
Speaker 4: called terms of reference with regards to this inquiry. Can

820
00:43:01,081 --> 00:43:03,001
Speaker 4: you explain to everyone what that means.

821
00:43:03,961 --> 00:43:06,561
Speaker 3: The terms of reference are the rules set down by

822
00:43:06,601 --> 00:43:09,481
Speaker 3: the New South Wales Parliament when it comes to what

823
00:43:09,641 --> 00:43:13,041
Speaker 3: the inquiry can include and exclude when it comes to

824
00:43:13,641 --> 00:43:17,321
Speaker 3: the inquiry. Now, the terms of reference are quite implicit

825
00:43:17,361 --> 00:43:19,841
Speaker 3: when it says the twenty odd names that have been

826
00:43:19,881 --> 00:43:24,361
Speaker 3: mentioned within the inquiry. However, there are quite a lot

827
00:43:24,361 --> 00:43:27,961
Speaker 3: of open ended. I think there's two particular terms of

828
00:43:28,041 --> 00:43:31,841
Speaker 3: reference in there that have opened up the entire inquiry.

829
00:43:31,881 --> 00:43:34,641
Speaker 3: And whilst I appreciate that we don't want it to

830
00:43:34,641 --> 00:43:38,441
Speaker 3: be a malatfest, Ivan Malatt actually is quite a good

831
00:43:38,521 --> 00:43:39,001
Speaker 3: way in.

832
00:43:39,001 --> 00:43:42,041
Speaker 5: Which for us to look at the entire system. Now.

833
00:43:42,121 --> 00:43:46,801
Speaker 3: Ivan Malatt has encompassed both cases here in New South

834
00:43:46,841 --> 00:43:50,081
Speaker 3: Wales as well as Queensland and Victoria and other states.

835
00:43:50,121 --> 00:43:53,681
Speaker 3: So it'ich highlights that there is cross jurisdictional boundaries that

836
00:43:53,921 --> 00:43:57,801
Speaker 3: we've got to follow. It highlights a lot of local

837
00:43:58,041 --> 00:44:00,361
Speaker 3: area commands that maybe not might not have had the

838
00:44:00,441 --> 00:44:03,921
Speaker 3: resources to investigate that at the time. But there's also

839
00:44:04,041 --> 00:44:06,801
Speaker 3: a lot of cases in there that over my LA

840
00:44:07,001 --> 00:44:10,561
Speaker 3: was not involved in. But the terms of reference are

841
00:44:10,641 --> 00:44:13,921
Speaker 3: quite broad, but at the same time it's been narrowed

842
00:44:13,961 --> 00:44:16,361
Speaker 3: to just twenty because if we were to include more

843
00:44:16,401 --> 00:44:19,321
Speaker 3: than eight hundred and forty long term missing persons, the

844
00:44:19,401 --> 00:44:22,401
Speaker 3: four hundred and seventy human remains that have not been

845
00:44:22,521 --> 00:44:27,881
Speaker 3: identified in conjunction with unsolved homicides, as well as the

846
00:44:27,881 --> 00:44:31,761
Speaker 3: bodies that have not been located from unsolved homicides, because unfortunately,

847
00:44:31,801 --> 00:44:34,281
Speaker 3: what we've been looking at is we change the law

848
00:44:34,281 --> 00:44:36,681
Speaker 3: here in New South Wales and quite a few jurisdictions

849
00:44:36,681 --> 00:44:38,281
Speaker 3: across the country.

850
00:44:38,281 --> 00:44:40,281
Speaker 5: The nobody no parole laws.

851
00:44:41,081 --> 00:44:44,801
Speaker 3: Now, a lot of criminologists, a lot of university academics

852
00:44:44,801 --> 00:44:48,440
Speaker 3: have actually criticized them and gone on record stating that

853
00:44:48,481 --> 00:44:51,681
Speaker 3: these laws don't work, and that is true, they don't work.

854
00:44:52,201 --> 00:44:54,161
Speaker 3: And this is where it's going to highlight that we

855
00:44:54,241 --> 00:44:57,961
Speaker 3: do have a systemic issue when it comes to searching

856
00:44:58,001 --> 00:45:01,921
Speaker 3: for our missing rum ones, because it's going to highlight

857
00:45:02,321 --> 00:45:05,361
Speaker 3: within the terms of reference that the police we've got

858
00:45:05,361 --> 00:45:09,241
Speaker 3: competing priorities. Now that can be one of two things.

859
00:45:09,801 --> 00:45:13,481
Speaker 3: Do we prosecute the criminal that's involved that's undertaken this,

860
00:45:14,281 --> 00:45:16,321
Speaker 3: or do we locate the body? And nine times out

861
00:45:16,321 --> 00:45:19,641
Speaker 3: of ten they're more interested in prosecuting the crime. So

862
00:45:20,441 --> 00:45:22,721
Speaker 3: being able to have the terms of reference the way

863
00:45:22,721 --> 00:45:26,521
Speaker 3: that they are written still allows for everybody to have

864
00:45:26,641 --> 00:45:29,161
Speaker 3: their say and everybody to have a voice.

865
00:45:30,321 --> 00:45:33,801
Speaker 4: And I understand too that there's protection offered, meaning that

866
00:45:33,841 --> 00:45:38,081
Speaker 4: anyone who has information who comes forward now has a

867
00:45:38,081 --> 00:45:42,121
Speaker 4: protection of the parliamentary privilege. Do you feel this could

868
00:45:42,121 --> 00:45:45,401
Speaker 4: bring people out of the woodwork who do no more?

869
00:45:46,081 --> 00:45:46,241
Speaker 5: Oh?

870
00:45:46,321 --> 00:45:51,681
Speaker 3: Most certainly, here's an opportunity for families or witnesses, for

871
00:45:51,881 --> 00:45:55,521
Speaker 3: anybody that's involved in missing persons in the space for

872
00:45:55,761 --> 00:46:00,681
Speaker 3: unsolved homicides to provide information to the inquiry and to

873
00:46:00,721 --> 00:46:04,721
Speaker 3: be able to name names that maybe they provided previously

874
00:46:04,761 --> 00:46:08,481
Speaker 3: to crime stoppers or the police that hadn't actually gone

875
00:46:08,481 --> 00:46:10,281
Speaker 3: through all of the things that it may have been

876
00:46:10,361 --> 00:46:13,761
Speaker 3: discounted at the time. So this is going to allow

877
00:46:13,841 --> 00:46:15,601
Speaker 3: a lot of people to come forward, and I think

878
00:46:15,641 --> 00:46:18,241
Speaker 3: by able to not only they could put their name

879
00:46:18,281 --> 00:46:20,281
Speaker 3: to it, they can also be anonymous and they do

880
00:46:20,401 --> 00:46:23,481
Speaker 3: provide this information and allow it to be a public

881
00:46:23,481 --> 00:46:26,881
Speaker 3: record forever for it to be seen that that hopefully

882
00:46:26,881 --> 00:46:29,561
Speaker 3: we can we can solve a few of these cases

883
00:46:29,561 --> 00:46:31,761
Speaker 3: that have been unsolved for such a long time, and

884
00:46:31,801 --> 00:46:37,401
Speaker 3: providing an alternative space for these victims to come forward.

885
00:46:37,921 --> 00:46:40,841
Speaker 4: And I'd like to add too that if someone has

886
00:46:41,521 --> 00:46:45,161
Speaker 4: given information to say crime stoppers, and they haven't heard back,

887
00:46:45,921 --> 00:46:49,881
Speaker 4: which I hear all the time, I would suggest that

888
00:46:49,921 --> 00:46:53,721
Speaker 4: you do it again through this process, because I know

889
00:46:53,841 --> 00:46:56,801
Speaker 4: firsthand that information was given to crime Stoppers, and I

890
00:46:56,841 --> 00:47:00,641
Speaker 4: know firsthand that it wasn't received by the OIC on

891
00:47:00,721 --> 00:47:03,321
Speaker 4: my mum's case until I actually gave them the reference

892
00:47:03,361 --> 00:47:06,121
Speaker 4: number and she went and found the information. So that's

893
00:47:06,161 --> 00:47:08,681
Speaker 4: an important thing to mention as well, because you might

894
00:47:08,721 --> 00:47:11,881
Speaker 4: think that you've given that information and if that person's

895
00:47:11,921 --> 00:47:16,480
Speaker 4: still missing. I highly promote the idea of actually revisiting

896
00:47:16,641 --> 00:47:19,841
Speaker 4: and reconnecting with that information and making sure that it

897
00:47:19,921 --> 00:47:22,561
Speaker 4: is heard because it could solve a case.

898
00:47:24,481 --> 00:47:27,561
Speaker 3: That's correct, that's correct this parliamentary inquiry. As soon as

899
00:47:27,641 --> 00:47:30,161
Speaker 3: the website is open, I'll be sure to share the information.

900
00:47:30,241 --> 00:47:34,321
Speaker 3: But if you have previously provided anything to crime Stoppers

901
00:47:34,321 --> 00:47:36,841
Speaker 3: and you're not sure whether or not it's been followed up,

902
00:47:36,921 --> 00:47:39,201
Speaker 3: if you've reported it to the local police, or you've

903
00:47:39,281 --> 00:47:42,481
Speaker 3: run police Link or done any of that previously and

904
00:47:42,521 --> 00:47:45,001
Speaker 3: you're not sure that it's been followed up, please provide

905
00:47:45,041 --> 00:47:47,161
Speaker 3: that to the inquiry so that they can then look

906
00:47:47,201 --> 00:47:49,881
Speaker 3: into it and determine if it was followed through.

907
00:47:50,521 --> 00:47:52,721
Speaker 5: Because that's a key thing that we need.

908
00:47:52,601 --> 00:47:54,801
Speaker 3: To also look at as part of the inquiry is

909
00:47:55,641 --> 00:47:59,361
Speaker 3: is crime Stoppers working adequately when it comes to reports

910
00:47:59,361 --> 00:48:02,961
Speaker 3: for missing persons and unsolved homicides. Whilst we've got the

911
00:48:03,001 --> 00:48:06,241
Speaker 3: responses that yes, it works for a lot of other crimes,

912
00:48:06,881 --> 00:48:10,161
Speaker 3: there's not any feedback in regards to missing persons or

913
00:48:10,281 --> 00:48:14,561
Speaker 3: unsolved homicides that crime Stoppers is the ultimate goal and

914
00:48:14,641 --> 00:48:16,201
Speaker 3: it's working the way it should.

915
00:48:17,161 --> 00:48:19,841
Speaker 4: One of the things I wanted to ask you is

916
00:48:20,281 --> 00:48:25,520
Speaker 4: do you know if they will be encouraged to hand

917
00:48:25,561 --> 00:48:29,001
Speaker 4: over the remaining human remains that are still in the

918
00:48:29,001 --> 00:48:31,721
Speaker 4: possession of Miss soth well as police that mainly I

919
00:48:31,761 --> 00:48:35,081
Speaker 4: think for independent testing, you know, rather than just the

920
00:48:35,121 --> 00:48:38,681
Speaker 4: police testing their own work. I think that that's something

921
00:48:39,121 --> 00:48:41,121
Speaker 4: in my head that I would like to see happen,

922
00:48:41,281 --> 00:48:42,841
Speaker 4: and it would give me a peace of mind to

923
00:48:42,881 --> 00:48:44,441
Speaker 4: know that it is actually being done.

924
00:48:45,081 --> 00:48:47,401
Speaker 3: Look, I don't think that they're going to be handing

925
00:48:47,401 --> 00:48:49,681
Speaker 3: over those remains. I think they need to stay in

926
00:48:49,721 --> 00:48:53,201
Speaker 3: their possession for the short time. However, there are some

927
00:48:53,281 --> 00:48:57,121
Speaker 3: pretty major changes and recommendations that hopefully will be coming

928
00:48:57,161 --> 00:48:59,641
Speaker 3: out on the thirtieth of June that we have been

929
00:48:59,721 --> 00:49:02,321
Speaker 3: working through over the last couple of years, and hopefully

930
00:49:03,281 --> 00:49:06,520
Speaker 3: this will highlight the need for those changes that will

931
00:49:06,561 --> 00:49:10,841
Speaker 3: include exactly what you're asking for, and that being independent

932
00:49:10,921 --> 00:49:14,721
Speaker 3: testing and the setup of those facilities to be available

933
00:49:14,721 --> 00:49:19,601
Speaker 3: because organizations like myself should not have to go all

934
00:49:19,641 --> 00:49:21,841
Speaker 3: the way to Texas or all the way to England

935
00:49:22,321 --> 00:49:25,121
Speaker 3: to get things tested properly to know that there is

936
00:49:25,161 --> 00:49:29,641
Speaker 3: the independent oversight that the company is that so hopefully

937
00:49:29,641 --> 00:49:33,561
Speaker 3: we can provide some definite good answers for what you're doing.

938
00:49:34,281 --> 00:49:36,601
Speaker 3: I notice you spoke to Jodie on one of your

939
00:49:36,601 --> 00:49:40,401
Speaker 3: podcasts and I think she'll be very happy with some outcomes.

940
00:49:40,801 --> 00:49:43,361
Speaker 4: And that's the thing, right, We've got someone who is

941
00:49:43,441 --> 00:49:47,721
Speaker 4: literally a genius in that space and setting up all

942
00:49:47,761 --> 00:49:51,561
Speaker 4: the parameters to make that happen. So I think everything

943
00:49:51,681 --> 00:49:55,001
Speaker 4: is stepping forward in really good succession, Chris. I think

944
00:49:55,041 --> 00:49:57,201
Speaker 4: I can see the light at the end of the

945
00:49:57,201 --> 00:50:01,121
Speaker 4: tunnel potentially and working towards that. So I know that

946
00:50:01,281 --> 00:50:04,201
Speaker 4: I will be helping promote on Mum's page as well

947
00:50:04,241 --> 00:50:08,201
Speaker 4: and three or socials and on our website as well.

948
00:50:08,321 --> 00:50:11,721
Speaker 4: For anybody who has information or wants to know more

949
00:50:11,801 --> 00:50:15,041
Speaker 4: about being included or putting in their submission to be

950
00:50:15,481 --> 00:50:19,161
Speaker 4: looked at for being a participant in the parliamentary inquiry.

951
00:50:19,241 --> 00:50:23,081
Speaker 4: We will keep everyone abreast of that. I just wanted

952
00:50:23,081 --> 00:50:25,921
Speaker 4: to talk to you, like although the Byron Bay murders

953
00:50:25,961 --> 00:50:29,761
Speaker 4: doco which I mentioned before, looked into sixty seven women

954
00:50:30,201 --> 00:50:32,761
Speaker 4: stretching from Newcastle to Byron Bay. There are also a

955
00:50:32,761 --> 00:50:36,401
Speaker 4: lot of missing men and other women that weren't included.

956
00:50:36,681 --> 00:50:39,041
Speaker 4: And for me personally, my mum wasn't included because New

957
00:50:39,081 --> 00:50:42,081
Speaker 4: South Wales Police have her missing from Southport in Queensland,

958
00:50:42,321 --> 00:50:44,401
Speaker 4: so even though the coroner was a New South Wales

959
00:50:44,481 --> 00:50:48,081
Speaker 4: coronial hearing, her last known digital footprints are in New

960
00:50:48,121 --> 00:50:48,761
Speaker 4: South Wales.

961
00:50:49,401 --> 00:50:51,201
Speaker 1: For families of missing loved ones.

962
00:50:50,921 --> 00:50:54,441
Speaker 4: How can they engage with the inquiry and what advice

963
00:50:54,481 --> 00:50:56,881
Speaker 4: do you have for them to prepare a submission or

964
00:50:56,881 --> 00:50:57,481
Speaker 4: to be heard.

965
00:50:58,601 --> 00:51:01,961
Speaker 3: Everybody can affect change. I hate to use the term,

966
00:51:02,001 --> 00:51:04,241
Speaker 3: but it's a history making moment for families and missing

967
00:51:04,241 --> 00:51:08,321
Speaker 3: loved ones that you have now a voice in Parliament.

968
00:51:08,121 --> 00:51:09,561
Speaker 5: Where it's going to be recorded.

969
00:51:10,001 --> 00:51:13,921
Speaker 3: Everybody with a missing loved one, anybody with an unsolved homicide,

970
00:51:14,401 --> 00:51:17,081
Speaker 3: all of that information needs to come forward and you

971
00:51:17,201 --> 00:51:20,121
Speaker 3: have the voice to affect that change now and to

972
00:51:20,201 --> 00:51:23,321
Speaker 3: make these people listen to what's been going on.

973
00:51:23,841 --> 00:51:25,921
Speaker 5: Whilst we fought hard to get the inquiry.

974
00:51:26,281 --> 00:51:28,961
Speaker 3: Now it's the important part over the next six months

975
00:51:29,121 --> 00:51:31,801
Speaker 3: and it's going to be a tough six months to

976
00:51:31,881 --> 00:51:35,161
Speaker 3: share your story. We want you to tell your story now.

977
00:51:36,321 --> 00:51:39,440
Speaker 3: We know that when somebody goes missing, there's more than

978
00:51:39,441 --> 00:51:43,081
Speaker 3: one other person involved. We want everybody to put down

979
00:51:43,161 --> 00:51:47,801
Speaker 3: their story about how it's affected them, about what they

980
00:51:47,921 --> 00:51:51,801
Speaker 3: have seen, how it's affected their families, because some of

981
00:51:51,841 --> 00:51:56,681
Speaker 3: these stories now are of missing persons are generational. We're

982
00:51:56,721 --> 00:52:01,041
Speaker 3: seeing the parents, the brothers and the sisters, the kids

983
00:52:01,081 --> 00:52:04,041
Speaker 3: of those and now the grandkids are all being affected

984
00:52:04,081 --> 00:52:07,521
Speaker 3: because this missing person in their life, in their family

985
00:52:07,601 --> 00:52:11,001
Speaker 3: has been unresolved for so long. And we need you

986
00:52:11,081 --> 00:52:14,041
Speaker 3: to be honest and tell your story so that we

987
00:52:14,081 --> 00:52:17,961
Speaker 3: can get the politicians to learn from what's been occurring,

988
00:52:18,121 --> 00:52:22,161
Speaker 3: not just what is getting reported to them by the police,

989
00:52:22,921 --> 00:52:26,841
Speaker 3: by the Attorney General, by the Premier's department. They need

990
00:52:26,881 --> 00:52:30,721
Speaker 3: to understand just what is really occurring within the missing

991
00:52:30,761 --> 00:52:31,521
Speaker 3: persons space.

992
00:52:32,481 --> 00:52:36,401
Speaker 4: And I guess, like looking for the future, what are

993
00:52:36,441 --> 00:52:39,961
Speaker 4: your biggest fears or concerns for missing persons work in

994
00:52:40,001 --> 00:52:42,201
Speaker 4: New South Wales and Astray and more broadly.

995
00:52:43,441 --> 00:52:45,561
Speaker 3: Miss My biggest fear is that we just keep going

996
00:52:45,561 --> 00:52:48,081
Speaker 3: the way we're going, because if we keep going the

997
00:52:48,241 --> 00:52:51,041
Speaker 3: way we're going, these numbers are going to be, you know,

998
00:52:51,121 --> 00:52:53,721
Speaker 3: at five thousand in less than a decade of long

999
00:52:53,801 --> 00:52:54,801
Speaker 3: term missing persons.

1000
00:52:55,521 --> 00:52:57,401
Speaker 5: We need to change it, and we need to change

1001
00:52:57,401 --> 00:52:57,801
Speaker 5: it now.

1002
00:52:58,161 --> 00:53:01,201
Speaker 3: Sadly, I can look at the Bureau of Crime Statistics

1003
00:53:01,201 --> 00:53:04,561
Speaker 3: and research monthly figures that come out to tell me

1004
00:53:04,721 --> 00:53:07,641
Speaker 3: what have been committed in my local area, but missing

1005
00:53:07,681 --> 00:53:10,521
Speaker 3: persons don't even rery to mention. The new South Walest

1006
00:53:10,521 --> 00:53:13,841
Speaker 3: Boys has been it's very difficult to even keep a

1007
00:53:13,921 --> 00:53:17,721
Speaker 3: track of missing persons. We need to provide our families

1008
00:53:17,721 --> 00:53:21,681
Speaker 3: with support. We need to provide them with assistance because

1009
00:53:21,801 --> 00:53:26,601
Speaker 3: this affects so many people across so many different communities

1010
00:53:27,241 --> 00:53:29,401
Speaker 3: that we can't just continue to go the way that

1011
00:53:29,441 --> 00:53:31,881
Speaker 3: we're going and expect it to be okay, because it's not.

1012
00:53:32,681 --> 00:53:35,001
Speaker 3: I'm sick of seeing families suffer when they don't need

1013
00:53:35,041 --> 00:53:37,801
Speaker 3: to suffer. They need to get the support that they

1014
00:53:38,001 --> 00:53:40,561
Speaker 3: so rightly deserve. These loved ones need to come home.

1015
00:53:41,481 --> 00:53:44,281
Speaker 3: People die when they shouldn't have to die. We need

1016
00:53:44,321 --> 00:53:46,361
Speaker 3: to be able to provide the support to these people

1017
00:53:47,161 --> 00:53:51,041
Speaker 3: sooner rather than later, because I'd much rather be bringing

1018
00:53:51,081 --> 00:53:53,161
Speaker 3: them home and looking after them.

1019
00:53:54,481 --> 00:53:55,321
Speaker 5: Than burying them.

1020
00:53:55,321 --> 00:53:58,561
Speaker 3: And that's what we've been doing lately, and it's just

1021
00:53:58,601 --> 00:53:59,321
Speaker 3: getting worse.

1022
00:54:00,201 --> 00:54:05,001
Speaker 4: Chris, I always like to finish my episodes with asking

1023
00:54:05,201 --> 00:54:10,081
Speaker 4: my guess why they're missing? Loved one matters in your case.

1024
00:54:10,681 --> 00:54:13,361
Speaker 4: You look after everybody and care about everyone. Can you

1025
00:54:13,401 --> 00:54:17,161
Speaker 4: share with everyone why you believe the missing matter?

1026
00:54:18,641 --> 00:54:22,561
Speaker 3: You know they matter because they need to have a voice.

1027
00:54:22,761 --> 00:54:25,921
Speaker 3: The missing have a voice, and whilst they can't speak

1028
00:54:25,961 --> 00:54:30,281
Speaker 3: for themselves, we can speak for them collectively. And every

1029
00:54:30,321 --> 00:54:33,561
Speaker 3: single one of those missing persons needs to be loved

1030
00:54:33,601 --> 00:54:36,161
Speaker 3: and needs to be brought home and we need to

1031
00:54:36,241 --> 00:54:39,721
Speaker 3: do that. So let's do that work together as one

1032
00:54:39,761 --> 00:54:43,201
Speaker 3: big community. Let's come together. There's lots of little groups

1033
00:54:43,241 --> 00:54:45,201
Speaker 3: doing a lot of little different things across there, and

1034
00:54:45,281 --> 00:54:48,761
Speaker 3: let's come together as one big group and actually show

1035
00:54:48,801 --> 00:54:52,321
Speaker 3: everybody that we can become one and we can help

1036
00:54:52,361 --> 00:54:55,081
Speaker 3: these and help bring them home, because that's the whole thing.

1037
00:54:55,121 --> 00:54:59,201
Speaker 3: We need to bring them home and for that those

1038
00:54:59,241 --> 00:55:02,921
Speaker 3: families to you know, get the information that they so

1039
00:55:03,081 --> 00:55:03,801
Speaker 3: desperately need.

1040
00:55:09,321 --> 00:55:12,161
Speaker 2: In the next episode of The Missing Matter, we turn

1041
00:55:12,241 --> 00:55:16,641
Speaker 2: to the disappearance of Aaron Clear, a son, a brother,

1042
00:55:17,041 --> 00:55:21,521
Speaker 2: a father, and now a grandfather who's been missing for

1043
00:55:21,561 --> 00:55:26,681
Speaker 2: more than five years. It's a story filled with questions, contradictions,

1044
00:55:26,721 --> 00:55:30,921
Speaker 2: and moments that never received the attention they deserved, a

1045
00:55:30,961 --> 00:55:34,801
Speaker 2: timeline that doesn't quite add up, a system that seemed

1046
00:55:34,801 --> 00:55:38,441
Speaker 2: to look the other way. Aaron's sister cass shares the

1047
00:55:38,561 --> 00:55:43,241
Speaker 2: truth and a family who's never stopped searching. That's next

1048
00:55:43,241 --> 00:55:44,721
Speaker 2: time on the missing matter.