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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life the average persons never exposed to.

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Speaker 1: I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty

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Speaker 1: five of those years I was catching killers. That's what

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Speaker 1: I did for a living. I was a homicide detective.

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Speaker 1: I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking

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Speaker 1: the public into the world in which I operated. The

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Speaker 1: guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from

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Speaker 1: all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest,

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Speaker 1: just like the people I talked to. Some of the

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Speaker 1: content and language might be confronting. That's because no one

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Speaker 1: who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join

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Speaker 1: me now as I take you into this world. Today,

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Speaker 1: I had an interesting conversation with investigative journalist Sam Poling,

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Speaker 1: whose work helped put a murderer behind bars. Sam interviewed

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Speaker 1: killer Ian Packer, which led to his eventual arrest and

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Speaker 1: was later convicted the murder of twenty seven year old

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Speaker 1: Emma Caldwell. Joining us today from Scotland, Sam took us

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Speaker 1: right through the case, highlighting where the investigation went wrong

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Speaker 1: and how her interview played a major role in locking

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Speaker 1: up a predator. Just a warning up front, some of

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Speaker 1: the things we discuss here will be confronting. A young

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Speaker 1: woman's life was taken and many other women's lives were

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Speaker 1: destroyed by the actions of this serial predator. Packer was

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Speaker 1: also charged with fences against twenty two women who had

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Speaker 1: been raped or assulted. We also talked about how investigations

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Speaker 1: can go wrong and the role the media play in

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Speaker 1: bringing offenders to justice by making police accountable for their actions.

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Speaker 1: Sam Poling, Welcome to our Catch Killers. Thank you, it's

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Speaker 1: great to have you on. And a friend of mine,

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Speaker 1: a person that I got to know very well, Steve Kio,

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Speaker 1: contacted me and said, hey, you've got to speak to

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Speaker 1: this lady the work that she's done. So that got

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Speaker 1: me curious, and that led me to listening to your

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Speaker 1: podcast and looking at a bit of the work that

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Speaker 1: you've done and the podcast I'm referring to a third

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Speaker 1: in part who Killed Emma. I found it fascinating, so

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Speaker 1: I'm really pleased we've got you here to have a

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Speaker 1: chat about it today.

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Speaker 2: Well, thank you for inviting me, and I'm glad you're

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Speaker 2: at the time to listen to it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I started listening to it and you had

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Speaker 1: me hooked. So that's how I've spent last couple of

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Speaker 1: a couple of days. When you first started the investigation

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Speaker 1: into Emma Caldwell, did you have any idea how far

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Speaker 1: it would take you down the rabbit hole? Oh?

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Speaker 2: No, I mean, you know, I have a history with

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Speaker 2: investigating or looking into a number of murders of young

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Speaker 2: women who'd worked as prostitutes prior. I mean, my very

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Speaker 2: first job, and we can talk about that was the

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Speaker 2: murder of a young woman who had been working as

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Speaker 2: a prostitute. So over the years I'd covered a number

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Speaker 2: of cases. And then when Emma had been murdered, I

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Speaker 2: was working for the BBC at the time, so I

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Speaker 2: was I didn't cover it, I didn't investigate it. So

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Speaker 2: then when I started this investigation, I just thought, Okay,

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Speaker 2: it's just going to be another documentary, another investigation. I

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Speaker 2: never ever could have predicted that what happened would happen.

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Speaker 2: I never thought in a million years I would find

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Speaker 2: myself in the position that I found myself in. And

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Speaker 2: as it slowly unfolded, and I think, I hope you've

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Speaker 2: got a sense from the podcast that I genuinely did

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Speaker 2: not know who the killer was, where the killer was,

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Speaker 2: where we should be looking. I didn't know anything, and

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Speaker 2: so as it slowly came to like, yeah, it was

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Speaker 2: as much a shocked for me as it was for

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Speaker 2: those for those watching on I think.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's a new medium, the podcast world looking at

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Speaker 1: true crime, and it really is a game change, or

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Speaker 1: isn't it. Because you've worked in media a long time.

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Speaker 1: I've worked in place a long time, but now delving

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Speaker 1: into the media side of things, and there was a

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Speaker 1: narrative that media would often just support the place, like

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Speaker 1: you had your contacts in the media, and the place

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Speaker 1: would feed the information. The media report the positive news stories.

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Speaker 1: But this new form of journalism, it's a completely different world,

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Speaker 1: isn't it.

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Speaker 2: Oh, it's a completely different world. And you know, I

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Speaker 2: think once upon a time there was a world in

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Speaker 2: which the police and the media worked together and worked

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Speaker 2: well together. I think it's fair to say that the

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Speaker 2: relationship we used to have as journalists with the police.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I've been doing this a long time. I've

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Speaker 2: had incredible relations relationships with the police throughout my career.

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Speaker 2: But it has changed, and as you say, the landscape's

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Speaker 2: changed and we don't have the same friendly, cozy relationship

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Speaker 2: that we used to have. You know, we used to

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Speaker 2: have cop contacts. My film was full of cop contacts. Now,

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Speaker 2: if you even talk to an officer, they have to

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Speaker 2: go and report, or I've had a conversation with the journalists,

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Speaker 2: or I've got enter as a journalist, And so everything

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Speaker 2: has changed and they are under The police are under

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Speaker 2: so much more scrutiny than ever before, I think, and

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Speaker 2: so they're very very cautious about who they talk to,

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Speaker 2: what they say, how they say it, how far they

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Speaker 2: go with what they're saying, and the information they're passing on.

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Speaker 2: So I think that has put a barrier between the

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Speaker 2: police and journalists considerably. What that has done, how is

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Speaker 2: basically the landscape I think has kind of opened up

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Speaker 2: a little bit more for them, for the journalists to

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Speaker 2: be a lot more investigative, put the police work into

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Speaker 2: a lot more scrutiny because they don't have that cozy

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Speaker 2: relationship anymore. And I think podcasts are a fantastic platform

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Speaker 2: to allow you to go in depth into an investigation.

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Speaker 2: You're not up against the time limit, you're not up

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Speaker 2: against an episode limit, you're not against anything other than

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Speaker 2: your own self in terms of how far you can

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Speaker 2: push something. So I think the landscape has changed, and

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Speaker 2: I think it's changed for the better, despite the kind

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Speaker 2: of loss of coziness, if you like, between the media

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Speaker 2: and the police. We're no longer you know. I think

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Speaker 2: you're right, you know. I think journalists did used to

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Speaker 2: get feder lined by the police, and then they would

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Speaker 2: pursue that line, and very often it wasn't questioned. It

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Speaker 2: was well, they're the police, and so what they're telling

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Speaker 2: us must be true, and now we go, okay, well

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Speaker 2: they're the police, and what they're telling us now needs

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Speaker 2: to be questioned, and that's what we do.

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Speaker 1: Well, your experienced that in your field in the media

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Speaker 1: and your contacts of the police. The large part of

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Speaker 1: my career in policing, I saw that connection with journalism

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Speaker 1: and it didn't sit well with me because the narrative

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Speaker 1: could be controlled. From the place point of view, the

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Speaker 1: police would simply say that the matter's been looked at,

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Speaker 1: there's an investigation. We call them strike forces. You might

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Speaker 1: call them something different over where you are, but a

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Speaker 1: strike force has been informed. I knew that the strike

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Speaker 1: force might consist of one person the narrative was never

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Speaker 1: never questioned. So I think it's a step in the

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Speaker 1: right direction. And I'm yeah, I'm still very proud police.

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Speaker 1: It's not me beating up on that on PLAE. I

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Speaker 1: just think scrutinyeds a good thing and I think it

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Speaker 1: makes us lift lift their game. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And but you know, the police, you know, you guys

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Speaker 2: have used us for years, right and understandably so, and

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Speaker 2: very often rightly so, because you want to put some

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Speaker 2: information out there, you want to pursue a line of

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Speaker 2: inquiry that you need media attention on, or perhaps you

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Speaker 2: know it's to help with an investigation, to raise the

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Speaker 2: profile of an investigation. So I understand all that, and

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Speaker 2: now that that has shifted a little bit, and I

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Speaker 2: think US journalists are not prepared to be used as

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Speaker 2: to as great an extent as we were before. I

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Speaker 2: just I think the relationship with the balance has changed

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Speaker 2: a little bit.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I agree, And I know now the what

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Speaker 1: you talked of, the reluctance of place and moment the

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Speaker 1: journalist speaks to them, they ever goes into panic made.

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Speaker 1: But look, I think it's a good thing. And if

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Speaker 1: the end result is what happened in the mc coldwell case.

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Speaker 1: No one can argue the benefits of it, certainly with

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Speaker 1: cold cases or unsolved cases that it's been left in

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Speaker 1: the hands of place it hasn't got a result. I

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Speaker 1: think it's beneficial to have that type of discussion and

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Speaker 1: scrutiny on the investigation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I do. I mean I was. We

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Speaker 2: were under a lot of pressure from the police not

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Speaker 2: to broadcast, right, We had phone calls from the police

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Speaker 2: begging us not to broadcast because the investigation was live,

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Speaker 2: or the investigation was at a sensitive point, or the

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Speaker 2: investigation was at a crucial point. Well, the fact is

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Speaker 2: this has been a cold case for a long time.

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Speaker 2: There had been many many years when action could have

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Speaker 2: been taken the information was there, and we will go

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Speaker 2: on to talk about what information was there. But you know,

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Speaker 2: you're right, there is a response ability that we all

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Speaker 2: have to make sure that no investigation is hindered. But

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Speaker 2: there comes a point, I think as journalists where you

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Speaker 2: have to sit down, look at it from a moral perspective,

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Speaker 2: look at it from the legal perspective, and then just

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Speaker 2: think what's the right thing to do in this case.

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Speaker 2: And in this situation, the right thing was to broadcast.

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Speaker 2: But it wasn't an easy decision, and I faced and

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Speaker 2: we all face a lot of criticism from some quarters

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Speaker 2: for proceeding to broadcast and proceeding to broadcast the interviews

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Speaker 2: that we broadcast, which eventually and ultimately led to the

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Speaker 2: conviction of a killer.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and that you can argue with the results of

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Speaker 1: that way and in hiding behind that it's a live investigation,

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Speaker 1: and that it might cut it in the first week

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Speaker 1: or so. But when you're talking a meato that's been

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Speaker 1: running as long as Emma's case head, surely it's been official.

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Speaker 1: But look, first, investigative journalism, how did you get into it?

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Speaker 1: And what was it that drove you to that type

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Speaker 1: of work.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I just wanted to be a journalist, That's all

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Speaker 2: I ever wanted to be. I think I got my

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Speaker 2: first typewriter when I was eight, and I used to

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Speaker 2: sit and write little stories in my bedroom. And then

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Speaker 2: as I grew up. There were two journalists that I

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Speaker 2: don't know if you'd have well, Roger Cook the Cook Report,

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Speaker 2: who was one of the best investigative journalists that existed

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Speaker 2: in the world for me, and every episode of his

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Speaker 2: show he was going after the bad guys anywhere around

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Speaker 2: the world, and he got into scrapes and all sorts

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Speaker 2: of things, and he always got the guy. He always

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Speaker 2: got the bad guy, and I just used to think, Oh,

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Speaker 2: I want to be him. And then there was a

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Speaker 2: woman journalist. She was the foreign correspondent for the BBC,

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Speaker 2: k Ad, and I used to watch her and think,

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Speaker 2: you are incredible, and I couldn't make my mind up

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Speaker 2: which one I wanted to because I knew I was

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Speaker 2: going to be one of them. And I thought, well,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to be kat Ad. She's amazing. And then

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Speaker 2: I used to phone up people at the BBC when

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Speaker 2: I was like in my early teens and say, how

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Speaker 2: do I get your job? What do I have to do?

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Speaker 2: And a couple of people gave me some great advice,

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Speaker 2: and I would give the same advice to anybody else.

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Speaker 2: They said, go and be a newspaper reporter, because newspaper

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Speaker 2: reporters are the best journalists in the world, because you

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Speaker 2: have to work twice as hard on your own and

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Speaker 2: just I guess it's like being a cop, where you

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Speaker 2: work through the ranks. And I was told, work your

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Speaker 2: way through the ranks and then you'll make it. And

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Speaker 2: I was like, Okay, well that's what I'm going to do.

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Speaker 2: And I ended up going going through newspapers, local newspapers,

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Speaker 2: regional newspapers. Then I joined the National Press and worked

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Speaker 2: for press agencies and that's the toughest gig you will

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Speaker 2: ever ever have as a journalist. And then I joined

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Speaker 2: the BBC and I came across the story and I

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Speaker 2: went to my bosses and said, I've got this great,

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Speaker 2: great story and I think it could be a great

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Speaker 2: investigation done one before, and they gave me. They gave

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Speaker 2: me the opportunity to do it, and that was it.

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Speaker 2: I was hooked, and so I didn't become Kad Roger Cook.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, I kind of followed my dream a little

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Speaker 2: bit that way.

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Speaker 1: Well, I agree with what you say about the print

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Speaker 1: journalists working in the newspaper and a lot of journalists

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Speaker 1: that I know and look up to and greatly respect.

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Speaker 1: They always talk about the time in the original paper

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Speaker 1: reporting on cattle prices and great breakthrough stories like that,

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Speaker 1: But that's where they learned their trade.

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Speaker 2: It would be like somebody going in as a cop

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Speaker 2: to you know, a chief superintendent level who have not

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Speaker 2: you know, walked the walk. And I have literally worked

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Speaker 2: every single rank there is as a journalist. And yeah,

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Speaker 2: and I'm so grateful that I have because it makes

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Speaker 2: the difference.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's paid off in the work that you do,

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Speaker 1: and you've got a great body of work. And I

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Speaker 1: think even a couple of awards came your way in

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Speaker 1: the form of Beth the rewards which are pretty impressive.

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Speaker 2: Six six buffters.

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Speaker 1: You need to update, update the records on you. I've

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Speaker 1: only got three here.

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Speaker 2: Oh really get that updated? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, congratulations. I just wanted people to get a sense

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Speaker 1: of who you were because the work that you did

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Speaker 1: on the Emma cardwell, I'm sure it came at a

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Speaker 1: cost to you, and we'll talk talk about that. Let's

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Speaker 1: start talking about that particular case. So can you just

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Speaker 1: tell us, give us a sense and whenever and coming

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Speaker 1: from the police and then in the media and talking

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Speaker 1: about these crimes. I always make a point of not

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Speaker 1: forgetting the victims. You know, a murder has a lot

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Speaker 1: of different layers, but it's someone's life that has been taken.

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Speaker 1: So who is Emma Emma Caudwell, can you describe her

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Speaker 1: to us?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? So, I mean it is so important to keep

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Speaker 2: the victim at the center of this. And I think

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Speaker 2: all too often, especially in the world of true crime podcasts, now,

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Speaker 2: that it's all about sensational storytelling and forgetting about the victim.

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Speaker 2: The victim is the center of everything. Emma was a

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Speaker 2: twenty seven year old woman. She grew up in the

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Speaker 2: same village that I lived. I didn't know her. She

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Speaker 2: came from a really nice family, really nice family. Mom

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Speaker 2: and dad ran a pub. She had an older sister,

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Speaker 2: she had a brother. She loved horses. She would go

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Speaker 2: and help out at the stables when she could, go

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Speaker 2: riding when she could. They had a normal, happy family life.

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Speaker 2: They lived on the outskirts of Glasgow, about half an

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Speaker 2: hour away from the city of Glasgow. And she was

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Speaker 2: just I mean, I've spoken to school friends who went

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Speaker 2: to school with her. She was lovely, she was funny,

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Speaker 2: she was cheeky. If she didn't like a particular teacher

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Speaker 2: in a class, she would just go into a different classroom.

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Speaker 2: And she got away with everything because she was just

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Speaker 2: a nice girl, you know. And then one day her sister,

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Speaker 2: who'd left home, came back and told Emma's mum and dad,

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Speaker 2: Margaret and Willie, that she had been diagnosed with cancer.

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Speaker 2: She had non Hodgkins lymphoma, and she went through treatment.

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Speaker 2: She battled hard for a couple of years, and then sadly, Karen,

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Speaker 2: Emma's sister, died and Emma was really really close to Karen.

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Speaker 2: I mean they had a great, typical sister relationship. But

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Speaker 2: you know, Karen was the one that she would go

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Speaker 2: to with problems and chat and boy talk and stuff,

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Speaker 2: and Emma just Emma's world collapsed. I mean she lost

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Speaker 2: she lost everything in that moment. And she was working

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Speaker 2: at stables at the time, and grief was just something

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Speaker 2: that she she couldn't deal with. And her boyfriend, who

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Speaker 2: used to go along to the stables, just said to

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Speaker 2: her one day, you know, I've got something that can

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Speaker 2: can help you with your grief, and that was heroin.

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Speaker 2: And and so he was the person who gave Emma

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Speaker 2: her first taste of heroine and it numbed the pain.

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Speaker 2: And I guess you've heard this story a million times

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Speaker 2: from people. She became addicted, and she moved to Glasgow

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Speaker 2: to be close to the boyfriend. Her addiction grew, the

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Speaker 2: relationship didn't last, and so she was left with, you know,

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Speaker 2: no relationship, a broken heart, and a heroin addiction. And

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Speaker 2: of course heroin addiction is expensive, incredibly expensive, and so

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Speaker 2: she needed a way of funding that addiction, and she

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Speaker 2: turned to prostitution. This was not a world that Emma nu.

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Speaker 2: This is the thing when I mean, I know, I've

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Speaker 2: looked at there were a number of murders in Glasgow

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Speaker 2: of young women who were prostitutes. There were eight in all.

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Speaker 2: Emma was the eighth woman to be murdered. And the

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Speaker 2: story is very much the same. You know, the women

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Speaker 2: come from broken homes or broken families. They go into

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Speaker 2: the care system, they leave the care system with no support,

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Speaker 2: They end up with a drug habit. They need to

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Speaker 2: fund the drug habits, so they turn to prostitution. They

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Speaker 2: need the drugs to numb the pain of what they're

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Speaker 2: having to do. They need to fund that bigger habit,

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Speaker 2: so then it's more prostitution, and so this cycle just

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Speaker 2: goes on and on and on. This was not Emma.

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Speaker 2: Emma wasn't in the care system. She had an incredible family.

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Speaker 2: They did not know about her addiction. They didn't know

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Speaker 2: what she was doing to fund it. They only found out, well,

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Speaker 2: they found out about the addiction when Emma realized herself

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Speaker 2: that she was in trouble, and she had been in

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Speaker 2: bed for a couple of days poorly, and she went

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Speaker 2: downstairs and she said to Margaret, her mum. She said, look, mom,

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Speaker 2: I've got something to tell you and dad, and I

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Speaker 2: think I'm addicted to drugs. And they didn't know anything

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Speaker 2: about drugs. I mean, Margaret's told me so many times.

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Speaker 2: We didn't have a clue. And Margaret said, well, what

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Speaker 2: drugs and Emma said, well, it's heroine. Knew nothing about her.

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Speaker 2: So they bundled her up in jackets and drove her

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Speaker 2: to accident an emergency and said can you give us something?

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Speaker 2: And you know, the naivety in that moment for me

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Speaker 2: is heartbreaking, because they really knew nothing about about this world.

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Speaker 2: And the doctor just kind of shook her head and said,

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Speaker 2: there's there's nothing we can do. Emma moved out of

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Speaker 2: the family home and was living up in a women's

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Speaker 2: hostel and she was she was working as a prostitute.

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Speaker 2: And it was only when Emma went missing that they

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Speaker 2: found out what she'd been doing. And I remember Margaret

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Speaker 2: said that Willie, Emma's dad, when he found out, had

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Speaker 2: turned around and said, you know it was very typical

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Speaker 2: of Emma to choose a way of funding her habit

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Speaker 2: that only harmed herself. You know, she didn't go she

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Speaker 2: didn't turn to crime.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that it was saying I heard heard that mentioned

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Speaker 1: in the in the podcast and the sort of a

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Speaker 1: reflection of the type of girl that Emma was. And

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Speaker 1: that's that's her father's take on it. He is a

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Speaker 1: sad story, said, story that happens happens too often often

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Speaker 1: in that environment, and as a working girl on the

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Speaker 1: streets of Glasgow, I would imagine it was a pretty

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Speaker 1: uh yeah, they were very vulnerable in that in that circumstance.

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Speaker 2: Look, I mean everybody's I think most people around the

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Speaker 2: world will have heard of Glasgow. It is an incredibly vibrant, friendly,

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Speaker 2: amazing city, always has been. But it's also got a

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Speaker 2: side to it that's violent. I mean it was the

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Speaker 2: murder capital of Europe I think at one point, and

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Speaker 2: you know, an incredibly violent place and especially for these women,

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Speaker 2: and they would go out at night. I mean the

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Speaker 2: women that I've spoken to have said, you know, I've

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Speaker 2: said to them, you know, have you were you ever attacked?

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Speaker 2: And they're like, was I ever not attacked?

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Speaker 1: You?

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Speaker 2: Know, women would keep books as to who raped them,

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Speaker 2: not so that they could avoid that person that next time,

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Speaker 2: but so that they knew what they would be in

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Speaker 2: for when they went with these men, because they were

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Speaker 2: so desperate they needed the money, and you know, they

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Speaker 2: would work in an area of Glasgow it's called the

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Speaker 2: Drag and Glasgow is a grid like the roads are

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Speaker 2: set out in a grid, so up and down, left

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Speaker 2: and right and one way system and there's the Drag

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Speaker 2: is like a rectangular you can drive around and the

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Speaker 2: women would all stand on the four corners and that

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Speaker 2: way when the cars are stopped at the traffic lights.

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Speaker 2: If the police catch them, they go, oh, I've just

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Speaker 2: stopped at the traffic lights. But they're not. They're stopping

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Speaker 2: for the girls. And these women were selling themselves for

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Speaker 2: as little as you know, ten pounds, you know, out

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Speaker 2: push twenty pounds because they needed the money. And they

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Speaker 2: would go out at night and they would be raped,

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Speaker 2: sexually assaulted, beaten. I know some of the women were scalped.

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Speaker 2: At one point one man was going around doing that.

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Speaker 2: There were the most frightening, horrific attacks and this was

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Speaker 2: a whole new world for someone, well for any woman, right,

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Speaker 2: But for someone like Emma who had did not know

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Speaker 2: this world at all, and she struggled on the streets,

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Speaker 2: you know, because she wasn't tough, she wasn't street wise,

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Speaker 2: she knew nothing. And the attacks don't just come from

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Speaker 2: the clients. The attacks come from the other women because

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Speaker 2: you're now on their patch. It's a new girl. Emma

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Speaker 2: was really attractive, and she wasn't so far into her

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Speaker 2: heroin addiction where she was so thin, and this has

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Speaker 2: started to take away how she looked, and so she

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Speaker 2: used to get, you know, beaten and hurt really quite

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Speaker 2: badly by some of the women. And it was a

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Speaker 2: tough life for her, a tough life for so many

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Speaker 2: of the women. And remember this is against the backdrop

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Speaker 2: of murder after murder after murder of prostitutes in the

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Speaker 2: city in the previous years. It was terrifying.

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Speaker 1: The circumstances, sarianning Emma's disappearance and the discovery of her

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Speaker 1: remind so can you talk us through that? Yes.

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Speaker 2: So it was April and Emma would go out most nights.

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Speaker 2: She would leave about ten or eleven o'clock at night.

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Speaker 2: She phoned her mum every day. Right, they had a

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Speaker 2: great relationship. Every single day, she'd phone her mom. Every

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Speaker 2: single day, she would go to a chemist to pick

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Speaker 2: up her methadone prescription as she was trying to get

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Speaker 2: help with her heroin addiction. And every single day, in

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Speaker 2: the early hours of the morning, she would return back

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Speaker 2: to the hostel where she was staying, and she took

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Speaker 2: the same route every single evening into the city center.

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Speaker 2: And this one night she left us and all she

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Speaker 2: phoned her mom. Her mom and dad used to see

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Speaker 2: her twice a week on a Wednesday and a weekend,

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Speaker 2: and they would take all her dirty washing, wash it

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Speaker 2: all iron it, give it back to her, and do

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Speaker 2: a swap with the dirty washing. And she was due

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Speaker 2: to see them, but they had phoned and said, listen, Emma,

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Speaker 2: we're getting carpet fitted, so maybe we'll come and see

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Speaker 2: you tomorrow night. And she said, yeah, that's cool, that's fine.

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Speaker 2: She went off to work that night as normal. They

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Speaker 2: obviously did not know where she was going what she

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Speaker 2: was doing. The following day, William's dad said to Margaret,

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Speaker 2: I've tried phony Emma, and she's not picking up. I

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Speaker 2: hope she's okay. Margaret said, she'll be fine. Don't worry.

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Speaker 2: So they tried again, and they tried the next day

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Speaker 2: and the next day, and nothing. And not only was

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Speaker 2: she not answering the phone, she hadn't returned to the hostel,

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Speaker 2: she hadn't gone to the chemist to pick up her prescription.

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Speaker 2: Nobody had seen her. And Margaret and Willie they had

433
00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 2: gone to the police and said, look, our daughter's missing.

434
00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,680
Speaker 2: And that's that's when they reported her missing a few

435
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:53,280
Speaker 2: days later, and the police at that point checked Emma out,

436
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:56,439
Speaker 2: checked out, you know, and the police files, and they

437
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 2: sat down and they said to Margaret, well, I mean,

438
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,280
Speaker 2: you you do know that your daughter frequents the city center,

439
00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:06,280
Speaker 2: don't you. And Margaret thought, well, we go shopping and

440
00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:08,800
Speaker 2: the city said and she said, well we frequent the

441
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:13,920
Speaker 2: city yeah, And the police said, no, no, no, she

442
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:18,120
Speaker 2: frequents it. She's a prostitute. And that's the moment that,

443
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:23,160
Speaker 2: you know, these parents find out how their daughter has

444
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 2: been has been funding this habit and what she's doing.

445
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:28,360
Speaker 2: And so of course, now not only do they have

446
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:30,919
Speaker 2: the missing daughter, not only do they now know that

447
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,560
Speaker 2: she's been working as a prostitute, but put all of

448
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 2: that together, she's also missing. And you know this this

449
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:42,199
Speaker 2: was absolutely horrific on what you know, because there had

450
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 2: been so many murders of women the police which were unsolved. Right,

451
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 2: These were unsolved murders. It wasn't like there was a

452
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:51,400
Speaker 2: murder of a young woman and within a few months

453
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 2: they've got the killers. These killers were out there. They

454
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 2: were unsolved murders.

455
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 1: You're talking night in what over? How many is the

456
00:24:58,640 --> 00:24:59,000
Speaker 1: way over?

457
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,520
Speaker 2: About ten years? Yeah, in the lead up. Yeah, and

458
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 2: Emma was the eighth eighth woman to be murdered. So,

459
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,239
Speaker 2: I mean I covered a number of the murders. They

460
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,760
Speaker 2: were my first jobs as a journalism with the press

461
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 2: agencies in the national papers, and so against that backdrop,

462
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 2: you know, understandably terrified the police thinking and realizing when

463
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,119
Speaker 2: they looked into Emma, this is not someone who goes missing.

464
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:29,639
Speaker 2: And a massive missing person's inquiry was launched and they

465
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,200
Speaker 2: you know, there were billboards around the city, they were

466
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:36,959
Speaker 2: missing person posters. They were stopping men in the street,

467
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,159
Speaker 2: in the red light area, around the drag have you

468
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 2: seen this girl? Do you know this woman? Are you

469
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 2: a client? Do you use any of the women? Do

470
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:47,399
Speaker 2: you pay for sex with any of the women? You know,

471
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:52,680
Speaker 2: they were just doing everything and Emma was and there's

472
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,679
Speaker 2: no polite way to say this. Emma was very busy

473
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 2: in her line of work. She was very popular with

474
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:01,920
Speaker 2: the clients. She had two mobile phones. When the police

475
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 2: took her phones, there were two of them, and she

476
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:09,639
Speaker 2: had dozens and dozens and dozens of contact names and

477
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:13,159
Speaker 2: details in her phones of clients. So the police are

478
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:17,680
Speaker 2: suddenly faced with this mammoth task of where Emma's going,

479
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:21,439
Speaker 2: who she knows, who her friends are, what clients that

480
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 2: she has, regular clients, clients that she has in her phone.

481
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,880
Speaker 2: But that's only a handful in comparison to the rest

482
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:30,920
Speaker 2: of them. So they already have hundreds of men to

483
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,440
Speaker 2: be looking at that they're aware of. Then there's men

484
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:35,119
Speaker 2: that just turn up in the city and stop and

485
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:37,440
Speaker 2: pick her up. Then there's men that come from out

486
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,120
Speaker 2: with the city. Then there's men that come from out

487
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 2: with the country, and they're from down south in England.

488
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 2: So you are talking thousands of men that they are

489
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 2: having to try and track down.

490
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:52,359
Speaker 1: And broad investigation from the start.

491
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 2: Isn't massive massive.

492
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 1: When was Emma's body fan there?

493
00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,359
Speaker 2: So she goes missing in April, and then five weeks

494
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 2: later there is a dog walker walking in some woods

495
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,360
Speaker 2: about an hour from Glasgow. It's about forty six miles

496
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:11,360
Speaker 2: just off the main motorway south between Scotland and England,

497
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 2: about half an hour drive from the motorway. In the

498
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 2: middle of nowhere. If I gave you a map Gary

499
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 2: and said go find this place, you would not find it.

500
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:26,479
Speaker 2: And in the middle of a forest, a dog walker

501
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 2: came across a body. The body was naked, with some

502
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 2: bruising and what looked like a cord or a rope

503
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:39,360
Speaker 2: wrapped around the neck. It was a woman. He called

504
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 2: the police. The police turned up and Emma had a

505
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 2: very distinctive tattoo on her shoulder. So from that and

506
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:51,440
Speaker 2: from other other inquiries, it was the body was identified

507
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,119
Speaker 2: to be Hemma cold Well. So that was five weeks

508
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 2: after she'd gone missing, and five weeks of one of

509
00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 2: the biggest missing person's inquiries that you could imagine, and

510
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:04,120
Speaker 2: that's where she was found. Strange, very strange location. None

511
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 2: of the other women, and this was what was different.

512
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:08,680
Speaker 2: None of the other women had been murdered, had been

513
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 2: found like this. This was different from the off.

514
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 1: The others I assume had been left at the scene

515
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:19,640
Speaker 1: or not as far away from where they were working. Yeah.

516
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,119
Speaker 2: The majority of women found in a car park, found

517
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:24,880
Speaker 2: in a lay by, found in a bus stop, one

518
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 2: beaten to death in her flat, but you know layby's

519
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:29,679
Speaker 2: car parks where they worked.

520
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, and my understanding these the cause of death was

521
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 1: put down to strangulation.

522
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, the cause of death was strangulation. That

523
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 2: wasn't revealed for quite some time. In fact, Margaret, the

524
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 2: family weren't old for two years how Emmera died because

525
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 2: it was deemed to be well, you'll understand this specialist knowledge.

526
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 2: So it was never really revealed how she died. But yes,

527
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 2: she'd been strangled and her body it was described as

528
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 2: the deposition site. Right, So everybody from the office like, okay,

529
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 2: so she'd been taken their dead and dumped and that

530
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 2: was that was what we all thought, and the well thought.

531
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 1: Yeah. And now your observation from from the outside looking

532
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 1: at the investigation, you said it was thorough. I picked

533
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 1: up on billboards, posters and all that. It seems like

534
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 1: a lot of resources went into the investigation. What was

535
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: what was your assessment before you actually involved yourself in

536
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 1: the investigation, You thought things were running along nicely.

537
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean having covered the previous murders of women,

538
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 2: you know, they were resourced. Well, there was always a

539
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 2: porter cabin put up in the plate and you know,

540
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 2: in the on the drag, there was always a police

541
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 2: port cabin on the drag, and you know the women

542
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 2: were always aware of the police presence and that you know,

543
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 2: there were investigations. This one was, I mean this this

544
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 2: grams and legs. This was a massive investigation and from

545
00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 2: the outside looking in, you know, it was it was

546
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 2: well resourced, it was, it was hugely resourced. Very quickly, well,

547
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 2: very quickly, within a few months, I can't remember the

548
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 2: exact time frame, but not long after Emma's bodies found.

549
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 2: You know, within the first two years, they had made arrests.

550
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 2: You know, they had found their suspects and it was

551
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 2: four Turkish men and they had evidence to show that

552
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 2: these they believed the four Turkish men had killed Emma

553
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 2: and deposited her body, kept her body hidden for five

554
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 2: weeks and then deposited her body down in these woods.

555
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 2: And they were arrested and charged and well that's it great,

556
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 2: going to trial. Everybody's happy. You know, this was one

557
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 2: of the successful cases.

558
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 1: And that's how it would have been looked at publicly

559
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 1: from there, just a structure of an investigation team there,

560
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 1: I'm aware of it. That just make sure we're on

561
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 1: the same page that you have a senior officer with

562
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 1: specialist experience in murder investigation, and then the task force

563
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 1: as we call it here all the investigation term is

564
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 1: comprised of specialist detectives and other detectives brought him from

565
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 1: different different areas like call detectives.

566
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you had the SiO was in place and

567
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 2: he was in charge of the investigation. And then what

568
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 2: they did with they had I think it was called

569
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 2: mutual mutual aid where they brought in police officers from

570
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 2: other police stations and policing areas to come in and

571
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 2: help on the investigation. And that's how big this inquiry was.

572
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 2: I mean, it was absolutely massive. And it was only

573
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 2: when within a very short amount of time, I mean days,

574
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 2: they got hold of Emma's phone. They realized that the

575
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 2: last phone call that Emma's phone had made was to

576
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 2: a Turkish man who she had had been a client

577
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 2: of hers on one previous occasion. Her phone pinged at

578
00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:01,720
Speaker 2: the mobile phone mast outside or around the corner from

579
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 2: a Turkish cafe so they were like, Okay, we've got

580
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 2: a Turkish client, We've got a Turkish cafe. And the

581
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 2: Turkish cafe was run by a man who had was

582
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 2: a convicted sex offender, so they had that, and then

583
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 2: they were getting evidence and statements from women who worked

584
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 2: on the street alongside Emma who were saying, oh, yeah, yeah,

585
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 2: we know the cafe, we go there, we have sex

586
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 2: with lots of Turkish men. They're aggressive, they're violent. I've

587
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 2: been raped, I've been attacked. And then they do the

588
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 2: forensics and they find a spot of blood on a

589
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 2: quilt inside the cafe, and so I mean, you can

590
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 2: imagine this is just gold, this is gold dust to

591
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 2: to the to the inquiry, and that's when it takes

592
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 2: it takes a different turn.

593
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 1: And I think also, if I understand it properly too,

594
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 1: one of the Turkish men left the country that die

595
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 1: after Imma disappeared, or around the same time, to go

596
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 1: and get married.

597
00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 2: And yes, yeah, a police officer, and you find out

598
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 2: he's left the country.

599
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 1: You'd be looking at. And then the forensic examination, the

600
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 1: spot of blood on the bed, on the bed in

601
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 1: the cafe, I can understand that. And they also had

602
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 1: listening devices in place for a long time.

603
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 2: So they put listening devices in fairly quickly once they

604
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 2: realized that one of the Turkish men had been a

605
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 2: client and they had left the country and with the

606
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 2: evidence about the cafe, So listening devices and not just

607
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 2: listening devices, but also cameras were put into the cafe.

608
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 2: They were put into people. You know, there were bugs

609
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 2: put into homes, businesses, cars, I mean, the place was

610
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 2: a wash with bugs put in by the police. And

611
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 2: the police was sitting there twenty four to seven listening

612
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 2: to the conversations within this Turkish community in the hope

613
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 2: that they could pick up evidence of these men talking

614
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 2: about what had happen to Emma. The problem is none

615
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 2: of these cops speak Turkish.

616
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 1: And that was the biggest is a is a problem.

617
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 2: So they brought in some Turkish speaking officers. And the

618
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:15,240
Speaker 2: problem was these Turkish speaking officers, I mean, we found

619
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 2: out one of them said, well, I mean I've got

620
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,399
Speaker 2: a no level in Turkish, if that helps, And one

621
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:22,520
Speaker 2: of the other officers said, well, I mean my Turkish

622
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,320
Speaker 2: is not that great. But you know, these were the

623
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 2: translators and the interpreters who were being relied upon and Also,

624
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:33,360
Speaker 2: you've got to remember the bugs. They're probably much better nowadays,

625
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 2: but back in two thousand and five and six and seven,

626
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 2: you know, technology wasn't as.

627
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:43,239
Speaker 1: Good cafe, and I could imagine it'd be very hard

628
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 1: to decipher exactly what's being said, why this was all

629
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 1: going on. There was other information coming in the packer,

630
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 1: and I just want to hold on to that information

631
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 1: because I want to talk about that later. But we'll

632
00:34:55,719 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 1: just explore this line with the Turkish Men. So look,

633
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 1: from the outside, the police have got their suspects. It

634
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:07,520
Speaker 1: fits nicely with the information they've got. They've been charged.

635
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 1: Everyone sort of steps back, wait for it to come

636
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,640
Speaker 1: to trial. Fill apart at the trial. But didn't it

637
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:21,720
Speaker 1: with the the translations, Yeah, wells mistranslated and misinterpreted.

638
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 2: I mean, Gary, if I ever get to the bottom

639
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 2: of the translations, that will be a good day. Basically,

640
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 2: they were waiting. They were listening for so long and

641
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:36,479
Speaker 2: listening to try and hear specialist knowledge, something that only

642
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 2: the killer or the killers could know. And then one

643
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:42,880
Speaker 2: day they hear apparently a conversation where one of the

644
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 2: Turkish Men says, oh, yes, the girl, we killed her.

645
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 2: Khalil killed her. And he hid her clothes in the

646
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:56,280
Speaker 2: bushes by the casino. Right now, to the listening police,

647
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 2: you're like, okay, well, if we go to those bushes

648
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 2: and we find Emma's clothes in the bushes by the casino,

649
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,880
Speaker 2: that specialist knowledge, only they could know, only the kill

650
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,759
Speaker 2: or killers could know. Brilliant slam dunk. So they go

651
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 2: to the bushes and they find a T shirt and

652
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 2: they find a key ring, and it's a horse shoe keyring.

653
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:19,279
Speaker 2: Now remember I told you Emma loved horses. Yeah, she

654
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,879
Speaker 2: worked dinner stables. She was horse obsessed. And they found

655
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 2: a black T shirt. Now the black T shirt would

656
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 2: was I mean it was massive, right, it was massive,

657
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 2: and I believe they found a cardigan. I mean, none

658
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 2: of the clothing was ever proved forensically to be Emma's

659
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:41,240
Speaker 2: number one no forensic link. Secondly, Emma hadn't been wearing

660
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 2: those items when she was last seen on CCTV leaving

661
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,879
Speaker 2: the hostel that day, so she hadn't been wearing them,

662
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,240
Speaker 2: and they never were able to link the horseshoe keyring

663
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:55,480
Speaker 2: to Emma. Despite this, this is specialist knowledge. The four

664
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,840
Speaker 2: Turkish men are arrested and they're charged and it goes

665
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,280
Speaker 2: heads to trial. I mean they're remanded, they're in prison.

666
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:07,319
Speaker 2: I mean they're in Barliny, the notorious BARLINI. If you

667
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 2: have committed a crime and you're in this prison, that's tough.

668
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:11,880
Speaker 2: If you have done nothing and you're in for the

669
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:14,239
Speaker 2: merger of you know, of a young woman, you know,

670
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:18,959
Speaker 2: you don't imagine. And then one of the lawyers says, well,

671
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:22,880
Speaker 2: I want to get the translations checked and let's just

672
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 2: see whether it does say yeah. So they get them

673
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 2: checked and not only was what was said not exactly said,

674
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 2: but some of the translations didn't exist at all. It

675
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:40,479
Speaker 2: just was not said. So the case collapses. All four

676
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:44,880
Speaker 2: men are released and that's it. Case goes cold. And

677
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 2: so you have four men who've spent time remanded for

678
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:53,319
Speaker 2: a brutal murder who are now suddenly told well, that's it,

679
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:55,520
Speaker 2: off you go. They're not told you didn't do it,

680
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 2: no charges against you. There, You're being released. Were still

681
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:00,399
Speaker 2: looking into it, right.

682
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:04,280
Speaker 1: Look, I don't know enough about the investigation to comment

683
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 1: on what causes causes this, but to me, looking from

684
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 1: the outside, it seems like a case of group think

685
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:16,520
Speaker 1: where the you've got a case theory and you're making

686
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:20,759
Speaker 1: the evidence what skinny the evidence it was mets the

687
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:25,440
Speaker 1: case case theory. But thoughts well, I.

688
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 2: Mean, look, I've spoken you can imagine I've spoken to

689
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 2: many officers. I had to wait until many of the

690
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 2: officers had retired before I could. They would, you know,

691
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:38,279
Speaker 2: dare to speak to me because they were terrified. And

692
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:40,759
Speaker 2: you know, the one thing keeps coming back is, look,

693
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:43,399
Speaker 2: this was driven by ego. This is what they say.

694
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:46,480
Speaker 2: This was driven by you know, wanting to not just

695
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 2: catch a killer, but they believe that this community. Look,

696
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:52,279
Speaker 2: it's not a community cafe. They it was kind of

697
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 2: I describe it in the podcast as park cafe, park

698
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 2: gang heart. I mean, it was horrible. Things happened in

699
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 2: this cafe, utterly horrible things happened in this cafe to many,

700
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:05,400
Speaker 2: many women, and I think and there were rumors about

701
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 2: what they were going to get was their trafficking, was

702
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 2: their drugs, There were weapons, and it just it just

703
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:16,400
Speaker 2: got out of control. I mean, they spent four million

704
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 2: on this.

705
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 1: I'm looking at the way it was described and I

706
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 1: can only imagine the resourcing that went into it. But

707
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 1: were satisfied based on the evidence that was presented at

708
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:30,959
Speaker 1: the core that got fri and they at the court

709
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 1: they were acquitted. When did you become involved from a

710
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 1: working point of view to look at the investigation? Was

711
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 1: that after the acquittal?

712
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that was in two thousand and seven. Right,

713
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:48,920
Speaker 2: the case gets thrown out of court, it collapses, it

714
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 2: goes cold. Then in twenty fifteen, it's the tenth anniversary

715
00:39:53,040 --> 00:40:00,440
Speaker 2: of Emma's disappearance and murder and a Sunday newspaper an

716
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:03,920
Speaker 2: anniversary piece, and they're the front page of this newspaper,

717
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 2: I think it was called the Forgotten Suspect, and they

718
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 2: have a picture of a man and they name him

719
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 2: and he's called the Ian Packer, and they say this

720
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:15,200
Speaker 2: man was interviewed by police as part of the inquiry

721
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 2: and they had managed to get hold of some of

722
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 2: his statements that had given to police at the time,

723
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 2: and in the statements he talks about having gone to

724
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 2: a remote wooded location with a number of women, including Emma.

725
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:30,760
Speaker 2: And they name this man. I mean, it was very

726
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:33,239
Speaker 2: very brave of them to do this, but they name

727
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:35,239
Speaker 2: this man and say, look, you know, surely he's a

728
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:37,799
Speaker 2: potential suspect, and surely you know if this case is

729
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 2: cold and it wasn't the turkish Men. It clearly wasn't

730
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:43,799
Speaker 2: the turkish Men. Look at this guy. And so that

731
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:46,719
Speaker 2: was in twenty fifteen, and the case just kind of

732
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:51,439
Speaker 2: nothing happens. Right, the police said immediately we are going

733
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:53,920
Speaker 2: to look at this investigation again. But what they actually

734
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 2: did was decide they were more interested, they were more

735
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 2: interested in trying to track down who them all was

736
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:02,279
Speaker 2: because they believed there was a leak in the merging

737
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:07,279
Speaker 2: inquiry to the to the Sunday Mail journalists, rather than

738
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:08,719
Speaker 2: actually go after the killer of them.

739
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:13,280
Speaker 1: Stop there saying I always find that, Sorry, I always

740
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 1: just find that amazing. I just wanted to jump in

741
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:19,280
Speaker 1: on that bit that I've seen that time and time again,

742
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,719
Speaker 1: more if it goes into finding it where information has

743
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:25,800
Speaker 1: leaked from, if it's critical of police or harmed police,

744
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,800
Speaker 1: than the actual investigations. Sorry, I just had to jump

745
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 1: in there because I say, and it resonates with.

746
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 2: You, yeah, exactly. And what they did was they ended

747
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 2: up carrying out unlawful surveillance on the journalists, right, and

748
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 2: some retired cops to try and find out who the

749
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:47,839
Speaker 2: leak was. Now, there was no leak, right, there was

750
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:53,000
Speaker 2: no leak at all the information had clearly come from

751
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 2: out with the police. So anyway, this made the headlines

752
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,720
Speaker 2: and that was the story rather than well, who actually

753
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 2: killed Emma Coldwell? So that's twenty fifteen, and then it

754
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:07,279
Speaker 2: just goes quiet. And then I did an investigation in

755
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:12,280
Speaker 2: twenty eighteen where I investigated the police, pointed fingers at

756
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:15,319
Speaker 2: the police for a number of botched investigations that had

757
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:18,799
Speaker 2: been carried out that were appalling. And then about two

758
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:22,320
Speaker 2: weeks after we broadcast, I received a letter out of

759
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:25,880
Speaker 2: the blue, like nobody receives letters nowadays, do we. And

760
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 2: I remember getting this letter with a stamp on it

761
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:31,360
Speaker 2: and hand of written, and I'm just being all excited,

762
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:33,440
Speaker 2: going all right, great a letter. And I only get

763
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:35,880
Speaker 2: letters like that from prisoners. Prisoners writes me all the

764
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:38,919
Speaker 2: time because of my job. And I was like, all right, okay, fine,

765
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:40,319
Speaker 2: but it's got a stamp on it, and I'll have

766
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 2: a look. And I open this letter and this letter

767
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:45,880
Speaker 2: is there's a letter in there to the Chief Constable

768
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:53,320
Speaker 2: from a man called Ian Packer saying I'm i in Packer.

769
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 2: I was questioned as part of the Mmacldorn investigation, and

770
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:58,799
Speaker 2: I want to know what information you have on your

771
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:01,480
Speaker 2: system about me, and I'm sending a copy of this

772
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 2: letter to the journalist Sam Poling and just to let

773
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:08,840
Speaker 2: you know. Right, So I thought, okay, this is very odd.

774
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 2: Ian Packer. I know that name, Ian Packer. How do

775
00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:14,279
Speaker 2: I know this name? I mean, honestly, Gary, It wasn't

776
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:17,759
Speaker 2: like I opened it and went shit. I opened it

777
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:21,239
Speaker 2: and went I know that name from somewhere. And of

778
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:23,160
Speaker 2: course it was Ian Packer. And we'd mentioned him in

779
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:25,760
Speaker 2: the documentary that I'd just done. And I thought, all right, okay,

780
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 2: because i'd been looking into the unlawful surveillance and that

781
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:34,080
Speaker 2: kind of watched the investigation. So I wrote a letter

782
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 2: back to Ian Packer and just said, Hien, thanks very

783
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:39,359
Speaker 2: much for your letter. Bit confused as to why you've

784
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 2: sent me this, but why don't we meet up for

785
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:47,240
Speaker 2: a coffee and here's my email address? And he emailed

786
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:49,359
Speaker 2: back and said, yeah, but it has to be off

787
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:52,880
Speaker 2: the record. I want your definition of off the record,

788
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:55,400
Speaker 2: and he was insistent, I want your definition. So I

789
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:58,960
Speaker 2: told him what my definition was of off the record

790
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 2: and the kind of moral code by which we journ

791
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 2: this work, and he said, okay, final, let's meet for

792
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 2: a coffee. And so that was early twenty eighteen and

793
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 2: I went and met Ian Packer for a coffee. He

794
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:21,799
Speaker 2: came with his girlfriend. Yeah, Yeah, he was strange. He

795
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:24,239
Speaker 2: was very nervous, he was very anxious. I've never been

796
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:26,360
Speaker 2: in the presence of somebody, and I've said this to

797
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 2: a few people, I've never been in the presence of

798
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:38,000
Speaker 2: somebody who has been so angry, constantly in his demeanor

799
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:42,400
Speaker 2: and his just this seething rage that would sit underneath.

800
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:45,000
Speaker 2: And he would stare at me, and I used to say, look,

801
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:47,960
Speaker 2: are you're okay meeting for this coffee, and he'd be like, oh, yep, yep, yep,

802
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:50,399
Speaker 2: and snap out of it. And then slowly his face

803
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:54,160
Speaker 2: would sink back to this kind of just anger underneath.

804
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 2: And he had such a powerful build. Remember looking at him,

805
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:04,319
Speaker 2: just thinking strange, But he was open. He said to me, look,

806
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 2: I was questioned by the police on a number of occasions.

807
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:10,560
Speaker 2: They at one point thought I did it, and I

808
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:14,920
Speaker 2: didn't do it. And you know the consequences of being

809
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:18,280
Speaker 2: questioned by the police, and the consequences of the twenty

810
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 2: fifteen newspaper article where it pointed the finger. It means

811
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:22,919
Speaker 2: that I was a suspect. It's ruined my life. I've

812
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 2: lost my business. People point fingers at me in the street,

813
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 2: they call me murderer. And this has destroyed me. And I,

814
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 2: you know, I want compensation, and I want to find

815
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 2: out what the police have gotten me, and I'd like

816
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:39,640
Speaker 2: your help. And I said, well, okay, Well I don't

817
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:42,200
Speaker 2: know anything about the case. I mean, and I didn't.

818
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:46,440
Speaker 2: I knew what the public had read. And I said, okay,

819
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:49,480
Speaker 2: And I remember his girlfriend. I mean, you know, Gary,

820
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 2: you will probably, I think, be the same. It's very

821
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:54,400
Speaker 2: often not the person the target that you're interested in.

822
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:57,319
Speaker 2: It's who they surround themselves with that gives you the

823
00:45:57,360 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 2: most clique.

824
00:45:59,120 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 1: Yeah.

825
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 2: And his girlfriend was articulate, intelligent, forthright, like a dog

826
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:09,000
Speaker 2: with a bone. And she said, listen, I have asked Ian,

827
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 2: did you kill Emma? And I would know if he did,

828
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:16,640
Speaker 2: you know, I would know. I have never let this

829
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 2: drop and I know he didn't, and that's why I'm

830
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:21,919
Speaker 2: standing by him. And you know, we want your help.

831
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:27,360
Speaker 2: So that was the first of many meetings between myself

832
00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:33,320
Speaker 2: and Ian Packer, and I said to him, all right, well,

833
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 2: I'll look into the investigation like I'll look into the

834
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:39,400
Speaker 2: police investigation, because he said, look, the investigation was investigation

835
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:41,960
Speaker 2: was corrupt, the investigation was wrong, and they targeted me

836
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 2: and definitely wasn't me, and it was definitely the turkishman,

837
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:47,279
Speaker 2: you know. And I didn't know anything about the Turkish case.

838
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:49,720
Speaker 2: So I was like, all right, okay, well fine, because

839
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:51,959
Speaker 2: look Gary, and you will know this again as well.

840
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:57,000
Speaker 2: To arrest and charge one wrong man is a mistake.

841
00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:04,200
Speaker 2: Right to arrest and charge four wrong men, that does

842
00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:07,880
Speaker 2: not happen. It has not happened for many, many years.

843
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:10,400
Speaker 2: You know, we're talking Guildford for Birmingham, six.

844
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:15,279
Speaker 1: To other cases that come to mind, like grab a

845
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:15,920
Speaker 1: group like that.

846
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, so'ting. I'm sitting with this guy who has approached me,

847
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:24,800
Speaker 2: who has been open and honest to me, and said,

848
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:29,200
Speaker 2: I was questioned, I yes, I knew Emma. I you know, yes,

849
00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:31,600
Speaker 2: I used em I paid it for sex, I used prostitutes.

850
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:33,640
Speaker 2: Ask me anything you like, and I will tell you

851
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:38,600
Speaker 2: the truth, anything about that life, anything about the police

852
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:41,960
Speaker 2: investigation where I'm concerned, and I will answer your questions.

853
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:45,440
Speaker 2: But you need to look into the case. And I said, okay, fine,

854
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 2: would you if I do look into the case and

855
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:50,800
Speaker 2: bearing in mind, this is not just at the first meeting.

856
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:53,640
Speaker 2: This is meeting after meeting, after meeting. Yeah, and you

857
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 2: know I would sit there and spend hours with them,

858
00:47:56,239 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 2: hours with him. You know, I'm into motorbikes and he's

859
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:00,919
Speaker 2: into motorbikes. So we would go farf an hour talking

860
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:04,439
Speaker 2: about motorbikes or dogs and you know his dog, and

861
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:07,440
Speaker 2: you know, we talk about stuff, and you know, it'd

862
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:10,520
Speaker 2: text and they've gone holiday in text, and you know

863
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:14,320
Speaker 2: we're not friends, but you know, he's a good contact

864
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:16,880
Speaker 2: at that point. And so I said, okay, I'll look

865
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:20,319
Speaker 2: into the case. And eventually I said to look right,

866
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:23,359
Speaker 2: because I'm thinking it must be the Turkish men and

867
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:25,239
Speaker 2: the police they had it right, because they're not going

868
00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:26,239
Speaker 2: to get it wrong, are they for it?

869
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:29,279
Speaker 1: And they're not throwing the hands up sighing, oh we

870
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:29,879
Speaker 1: got it wrong.

871
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:34,279
Speaker 2: We're looking for someone else still exactly exactly. And here's

872
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:36,920
Speaker 2: this guy. This is great television, isn't it. So I've

873
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:39,520
Speaker 2: got this guy, this, this this victim almost of a

874
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:42,640
Speaker 2: miscarriage of justice, this victim of a set of the

875
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:47,239
Speaker 2: most unfortunate coincidences, been to the same words, well, is

876
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 2: it the same words? We didn't even know the same words,

877
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:51,080
Speaker 2: you know, any new Emma and he liked them and

878
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:54,480
Speaker 2: all these things. But you know, Emma was very popular

879
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:56,240
Speaker 2: in her line of work. She had lots of clients.

880
00:48:56,640 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 2: So I said, I'll look into the case. Would you

881
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:04,200
Speaker 2: do an interview and I will then go away and

882
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 2: investigate everything and get you back and show you what

883
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:11,920
Speaker 2: I've got. In my mind thinking well, I'm going to

884
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 2: be confronting him with okay, we've discovered the police said this,

885
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:18,279
Speaker 2: and the police did that, you know so and he

886
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:21,279
Speaker 2: said absolutely, Sam, whatever it's going to take, that's that's

887
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 2: what I'll do. And I thought, well, this is great.

888
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:27,560
Speaker 2: So I started looking into it and then I go

889
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:32,719
Speaker 2: on holiday by coincidence, to Turkey. And it's while I'm

890
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:35,399
Speaker 2: in Turkey I get a phone call from someone i'd

891
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:38,759
Speaker 2: never spoken to before. I didn't know him. I will

892
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:41,520
Speaker 2: not name him. And he said, I understand you're looking

893
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:43,560
Speaker 2: into him a coldwell case. I said that's right, I am.

894
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:45,040
Speaker 2: And he said to someone you need to talk to

895
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:49,800
Speaker 2: as a journalist. So and his name's Aim and O'Connor.

896
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:53,800
Speaker 2: So I said, well, I'm in Turkey, I'll fly back tomorrow.

897
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:56,480
Speaker 2: Phone and went on Monday. So I phoned this journalist

898
00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:59,400
Speaker 2: who I knew, I knew of very good journalists, and

899
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:01,359
Speaker 2: I said, A and Sam, I'm looking to the mc

900
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:06,040
Speaker 2: coldwell case. And he said, oh right, okay, what you're

901
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:07,680
Speaker 2: doing about it? And I said, oh, well, I'm going

902
00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:10,120
Speaker 2: to show that. You know, it was a total, you know,

903
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:13,719
Speaker 2: total bad investigation, and they you know, they had the

904
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:15,239
Speaker 2: right people and they let them go. And there was

905
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:20,680
Speaker 2: I remember, there was this silence and he said, Sam,

906
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:25,279
Speaker 2: who do you think killed Emma? And I said, well,

907
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:30,399
Speaker 2: what Wasn't it the Turkish men? And he said there

908
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:38,400
Speaker 2: was the Ian packer And he said, I can, I can.

909
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 2: I can show you evidence which will help you with that.

910
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:45,640
Speaker 2: And so, to cut a very long story short, we

911
00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:51,920
Speaker 2: met up and he showed me evidence which was the

912
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:57,120
Speaker 2: same evidence that the Sunday Mail had had, and these

913
00:50:57,120 --> 00:50:59,360
Speaker 2: were relating to the statements that the impacker had given.

914
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:02,720
Speaker 2: When I read through the statements, which I'd never seen before,

915
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:07,080
Speaker 2: I started to notice things which I hadn't noticed before.

916
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:13,800
Speaker 2: The women that he was seeing, the women he was

917
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:17,360
Speaker 2: paying sex for, how he would attack them. They would describe.

918
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:22,800
Speaker 2: Because I managed to find and get information from women

919
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:24,760
Speaker 2: at the time, who had been attacked. They would describe

920
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:28,439
Speaker 2: certain jewelry that this man would wear. When I met

921
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:32,120
Speaker 2: with him, he wore the same jewelry. And I started

922
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:36,279
Speaker 2: to look into the location of where Packer said that

923
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:40,760
Speaker 2: he took women, and it was the exact same location

924
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:44,839
Speaker 2: where Emma's body was found. So you started to have

925
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 2: this jigsaw that was being put together in my head.

926
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:52,080
Speaker 2: And I'll never forget sitting there looking at this staff

927
00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:56,000
Speaker 2: and reading about his jewelry and reading about the location,

928
00:51:56,960 --> 00:52:00,680
Speaker 2: and reading about things that he was describing to the police.

929
00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:04,239
Speaker 2: I knew because I'd spoken to the women involved, So

930
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:06,919
Speaker 2: I had all the pieces of the jigsaw at that point,

931
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:14,760
Speaker 2: and I just remember sitting there in utter disbelief, thinking, Okay,

932
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:18,879
Speaker 2: you have been lying to me this whole time, this

933
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:22,200
Speaker 2: whole time, and I'm not someone who you can lie

934
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:23,759
Speaker 2: too easily. Like I mean, if you tell me you

935
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:26,400
Speaker 2: didn't take the last biscuit, Gary, I promise you I

936
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:30,120
Speaker 2: will hunt you down until I can prove you took

937
00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:33,560
Speaker 2: the last biscuit, right, And you're lying, And he had been.

938
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:36,200
Speaker 2: Look I knew that he wasn't going to be telling

939
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:38,719
Speaker 2: me the whole truth and nothing but the truth. But

940
00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:40,799
Speaker 2: the fact he had come to me, the fact he

941
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:44,080
Speaker 2: was being open and approachable, the fact he was just

942
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:49,200
Speaker 2: constantly wanting this contact, And I just slowly began to

943
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:57,800
Speaker 2: realize that not only had he there was an attack

944
00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:02,520
Speaker 2: on Emma behind some billboards and glass, actually about a

945
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:05,920
Speaker 2: couple of hundred yards where I'm sitting today, and she

946
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:09,880
Speaker 2: had been raped by a man and it was described,

947
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:12,640
Speaker 2: his vom was described and everything. So I suddenly realized,

948
00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:14,680
Speaker 2: putting the jigsaw together, it was Ian Packer who had

949
00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:17,560
Speaker 2: raped Emma in before she goes missing, in the months

950
00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:20,399
Speaker 2: before she goes missing. I then realized that this man

951
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:23,200
Speaker 2: is also responsible for a number of rapes of women.

952
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:27,440
Speaker 2: I then realize he's responsible for a number of abductions

953
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:32,040
Speaker 2: of women. I then realize he's responsible for a number

954
00:53:32,239 --> 00:53:36,560
Speaker 2: of women being taken to a remote wooded location which

955
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:39,200
Speaker 2: sounded very similar to the one where Emma's body was found.

956
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:42,560
Speaker 2: And then I discover that he had taken Emma to

957
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:46,920
Speaker 2: those very same woods on six occasions prior to her murder. So,

958
00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:50,759
Speaker 2: in a split moment, I realized that the man that

959
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:59,160
Speaker 2: I've been meeting for months is a rapist, a violent,

960
00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:08,759
Speaker 2: aggressive man who has raped and murdered Emma Caldwell. And

961
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:12,400
Speaker 2: that's a moment that you don't forget. And then remember,

962
00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:14,439
Speaker 2: I still have to meet this.

963
00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:15,759
Speaker 1: Man, Okay, well you.

964
00:54:17,239 --> 00:54:19,279
Speaker 2: Still yeah, I've still got to interview him, and I've

965
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:21,120
Speaker 2: still got to go in and do a full investigation.

966
00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:24,560
Speaker 2: And part of part of the evidence that I was

967
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:27,400
Speaker 2: finding was was after we did the first interview. So

968
00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:30,920
Speaker 2: when I did the first interview, I knew it was

969
00:54:31,239 --> 00:54:35,680
Speaker 2: likely that he had killed Emma. Not one hundred percent,

970
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:39,560
Speaker 2: but most likely. I knew about some of the attacks.

971
00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:42,800
Speaker 2: I didn't know everything. So I did the first interview

972
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:45,359
Speaker 2: with him and he and that interview was about two

973
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:47,439
Speaker 2: and a half hours long, I think, and I put

974
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:50,080
Speaker 2: everything to him. Look, I've seen statements. You told the

975
00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:52,239
Speaker 2: police this. Did you know Emma? Had you been to

976
00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:54,239
Speaker 2: the woods? No, you'd never been to the woods. Okay,

977
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:55,879
Speaker 2: well you know you told the police that you had.

978
00:54:55,880 --> 00:54:59,080
Speaker 2: Oh well, they bullied you. Okay, fine, And the story

979
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:01,160
Speaker 2: that he came out with I was being bullied by

980
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:05,640
Speaker 2: the police. Yes, but mister Packer, you know you actually

981
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:08,439
Speaker 2: took the police down to the woods where you took

982
00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:11,560
Speaker 2: all the women, including Emma, and it was the deposition side. Oh, well,

983
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:13,919
Speaker 2: that was just you know, the police took me there.

984
00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:17,040
Speaker 2: I never took them. It's coincidence. And this back and

985
00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:20,120
Speaker 2: forth for two and a half hours, and he went

986
00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:26,280
Speaker 2: from being a victim, you know, crying, to being angry,

987
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:32,279
Speaker 2: to being you know, empathetic to Emma, and to being

988
00:55:32,280 --> 00:55:34,879
Speaker 2: frustrated with how it's affected is life. I mean, every

989
00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:38,600
Speaker 2: emotion in that interview from him, But it wasn't him.

990
00:55:38,680 --> 00:55:41,040
Speaker 2: He didn't do it. It was not me. I was not

991
00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:43,680
Speaker 2: their end of And at the end of that interview,

992
00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:46,799
Speaker 2: I said, look, I'm going to go away and investigate

993
00:55:47,120 --> 00:55:50,319
Speaker 2: all of this, everything that you've told me, and I'm

994
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:51,880
Speaker 2: going to get you back for a second interview if

995
00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:53,640
Speaker 2: that's okay, and I'll put everything i've found to you.

996
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:57,200
Speaker 2: And he says, no problem. And I said, if I

997
00:55:57,320 --> 00:56:00,479
Speaker 2: have to point the finger at you, I will point

998
00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:03,800
Speaker 2: the finger at you. And he says, fair news, no problem.

999
00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:06,239
Speaker 2: And that was it. And that's when I started to

1000
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:08,520
Speaker 2: really look into it. And that was when I started

1001
00:56:08,520 --> 00:56:10,759
Speaker 2: to realize the extent of who he was and what

1002
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:11,320
Speaker 2: he had done.

1003
00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:15,600
Speaker 1: Okay, it's quite frightening all the information that was available

1004
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:20,560
Speaker 1: there that yeah, all of it, I say it, but yeah,

1005
00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:24,160
Speaker 1: the proper white wasn't wasn't placed on it. You did

1006
00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:28,080
Speaker 1: the second interview. The second interview was played on the documentary.

1007
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:31,479
Speaker 1: I believe in after that that generated other people coming

1008
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:33,440
Speaker 1: forward that resulted in.

1009
00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:39,200
Speaker 2: Ye, sorry, Well, so what we did was we then

1010
00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:42,520
Speaker 2: at this point we were we were making a documentary

1011
00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:44,600
Speaker 2: this so this interview with Ian Packer was for a

1012
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:47,399
Speaker 2: documentary and in the documentary. So we got him back

1013
00:56:47,440 --> 00:56:50,400
Speaker 2: for the second interview. And obviously you've got to remember,

1014
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:52,600
Speaker 2: you got to imagine he knew nothing about what was

1015
00:56:52,600 --> 00:56:57,000
Speaker 2: coming his way for that second interview at all. He

1016
00:56:57,080 --> 00:57:01,120
Speaker 2: had been away on holiday. I got on Christmas Day

1017
00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:03,799
Speaker 2: saying Merry Christmas, sweetie, I hope you get all you

1018
00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:06,560
Speaker 2: wish fun. I started to realize there was a bit

1019
00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:10,040
Speaker 2: of a fascination that he had with me, and from

1020
00:57:10,120 --> 00:57:14,480
Speaker 2: the text from from from that kind of level of contact,

1021
00:57:14,520 --> 00:57:17,400
Speaker 2: and all while uncomfortable, thinking right, okay, and as soon

1022
00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:19,080
Speaker 2: as he gets back, I've got to do this confrontation,

1023
00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:23,480
Speaker 2: get him back for the second interview. And I meet

1024
00:57:23,560 --> 00:57:27,120
Speaker 2: him outside the building and and I says, are you okay?

1025
00:57:27,160 --> 00:57:29,320
Speaker 2: And he says, yeah, I'm so excited. I can't wait

1026
00:57:29,360 --> 00:57:33,120
Speaker 2: to hear what you found out. Take him into the room,

1027
00:57:33,520 --> 00:57:36,520
Speaker 2: sit him down, and I just said, you know, I

1028
00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:38,600
Speaker 2: said i'd get get you back and if I was

1029
00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:40,400
Speaker 2: going to point the finger, and he said, that's absolutely fine.

1030
00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:42,200
Speaker 2: I said, you're not. You've not been telling me the truth.

1031
00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:45,040
Speaker 2: I think you're a violent man. I think you're a

1032
00:57:45,040 --> 00:57:46,920
Speaker 2: sexually violent man. And I think you're a rapist. And

1033
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:50,160
Speaker 2: I think you killed Emma. And in that moment you

1034
00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:53,160
Speaker 2: see his face, the oxygen just leaves.

1035
00:57:52,920 --> 00:57:55,040
Speaker 1: The room, the drop the pretense.

1036
00:57:55,840 --> 00:57:59,720
Speaker 2: It's it's horrific. I mean, it was horrific. I remember

1037
00:57:59,720 --> 00:58:01,680
Speaker 2: the used of saying to me beforehand, right, you know,

1038
00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:04,480
Speaker 2: we'll need to make sure that you know he's he's

1039
00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:06,760
Speaker 2: Let's not use radio mic. Let's use a line mic

1040
00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:09,480
Speaker 2: so that if he tries to run away like he's tight,

1041
00:58:10,120 --> 00:58:12,320
Speaker 2: he's tied to the equipment, all this stuff. And I said,

1042
00:58:14,160 --> 00:58:16,160
Speaker 2: I'm telling you now, this man is not leaving. He

1043
00:58:16,200 --> 00:58:19,600
Speaker 2: will not leave. He will stay. I know him. He

1044
00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:22,400
Speaker 2: will stay to the bitter end. And Gary, he would

1045
00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:25,880
Speaker 2: not leave. He got up at the end, he got up,

1046
00:58:25,960 --> 00:58:28,440
Speaker 2: he went to talk away, comes in, he sits back down,

1047
00:58:28,560 --> 00:58:31,400
Speaker 2: gets up, walks away, comes in six backs, oh, Sam,

1048
00:58:31,480 --> 00:58:33,200
Speaker 2: I can't believe you've done this to me, and I

1049
00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:36,720
Speaker 2: can't you know that's right? And at one point, after

1050
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:40,360
Speaker 2: I've accused him of everything, he kind of sits down

1051
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:44,200
Speaker 2: and he leans forward and he says, does this meme?

1052
00:58:44,240 --> 00:58:45,400
Speaker 2: Will no longer be in touch?

1053
00:58:47,040 --> 00:58:49,560
Speaker 1: I get a sense of what you're going through there.

1054
00:58:50,680 --> 00:58:54,160
Speaker 2: I said, well, no, we will no longer be in touch.

1055
00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:55,480
Speaker 2: I will be in touch to let you know when

1056
00:58:55,520 --> 00:58:58,680
Speaker 2: the program's going out buzz than that now and anyway,

1057
00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:01,520
Speaker 2: eventually we had to get a security guy to escort

1058
00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:03,640
Speaker 2: him out the building because he just wouldn't leave. And

1059
00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:06,000
Speaker 2: so that was the documentary. So that was the first

1060
00:59:06,000 --> 00:59:09,560
Speaker 2: documentary called Who Killed Emma that was broadcast, and that

1061
00:59:09,680 --> 00:59:13,480
Speaker 2: was broadcast on the Wednesday, on the Wednesday night, and

1062
00:59:13,560 --> 00:59:16,800
Speaker 2: on the Friday, he was arrested and the film had

1063
00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:19,480
Speaker 2: to come down. But he was not arrested for murder

1064
00:59:19,560 --> 00:59:21,560
Speaker 2: or any of the offenses which we had exposed him for.

1065
00:59:21,640 --> 00:59:25,520
Speaker 2: He was arrested because he had attacked his girlfriend, the

1066
00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:29,240
Speaker 2: one that I had been meeting with him, and unbeknown

1067
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:31,400
Speaker 2: to me, throughout the entire time I was meeting them,

1068
00:59:31,840 --> 00:59:36,680
Speaker 2: he was being violent behind closed doors with her and

1069
00:59:36,720 --> 00:59:39,480
Speaker 2: then had a fall out about the first interview that

1070
00:59:39,520 --> 00:59:42,400
Speaker 2: had done with me and he had throttled her and

1071
00:59:42,440 --> 00:59:44,760
Speaker 2: he was arrested in charge. So the film came down.

1072
00:59:45,120 --> 00:59:49,120
Speaker 2: It was only up for forty eight hours, and then

1073
00:59:49,160 --> 00:59:51,200
Speaker 2: we had the podcast which we worked on and so,

1074
00:59:52,160 --> 00:59:56,480
Speaker 2: you know, long story short, once that case went through court,

1075
00:59:56,760 --> 00:59:58,960
Speaker 2: we were allowed to put the documentary in the podcast

1076
00:59:59,120 --> 01:00:02,600
Speaker 2: back up the first eight episodes, and that was when

1077
01:00:03,200 --> 01:00:05,640
Speaker 2: it just took off because women were listening to this

1078
01:00:05,960 --> 01:00:08,320
Speaker 2: and going, hold on, that's the man that attacked me.

1079
01:00:09,160 --> 01:00:11,760
Speaker 2: That's a man who raped me. And I started to

1080
01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:15,520
Speaker 2: get calls and texts and emails from women saying he

1081
01:00:15,600 --> 01:00:18,760
Speaker 2: did that to me. I know that man he raped me,

1082
01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:21,880
Speaker 2: and I'm having to send them to the police.

1083
01:00:22,520 --> 01:00:25,120
Speaker 1: It was taken down because he was charged with the

1084
01:00:25,160 --> 01:00:29,040
Speaker 1: assault of his partner, which I think he was inside

1085
01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:33,120
Speaker 1: for two years. After that court meta finalize, that's when

1086
01:00:33,160 --> 01:00:38,120
Speaker 1: the documentary in the podcast could air again. Is that yeah?

1087
01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:40,720
Speaker 2: So it could air again, Yeah, because the case he

1088
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:43,640
Speaker 2: was sentenced to two years. He served one year and

1089
01:00:43,920 --> 01:00:46,919
Speaker 2: as soon as he was released then we were able

1090
01:00:46,920 --> 01:00:48,560
Speaker 2: to put them back up because the case was no

1091
01:00:48,640 --> 01:00:51,720
Speaker 2: longer active, and we put them back up, and we

1092
01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:53,600
Speaker 2: just sat thinking, oh, well that's okay, because they're going

1093
01:00:53,640 --> 01:00:56,040
Speaker 2: to arrest him now for the merger and for all

1094
01:00:56,040 --> 01:00:59,000
Speaker 2: these rapes and sexual assaults. I mean, he'd been abducting

1095
01:00:59,080 --> 01:01:02,800
Speaker 2: women and nothing happened.

1096
01:01:02,560 --> 01:01:05,160
Speaker 1: That you were in undicted with more information coming in

1097
01:01:05,360 --> 01:01:08,400
Speaker 1: that you were referring to the place, the information from

1098
01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:10,760
Speaker 1: other women that are so m of.

1099
01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:14,720
Speaker 2: The Yeah, so you're in this situation Gary, where as

1100
01:01:14,760 --> 01:01:16,640
Speaker 2: a journalist, you just want to go, Okay, tell me

1101
01:01:16,720 --> 01:01:19,400
Speaker 2: the story. What happened. You know, how did this happen,

1102
01:01:19,440 --> 01:01:22,600
Speaker 2: When did this happen? What did he do? But you know,

1103
01:01:22,640 --> 01:01:24,160
Speaker 2: you have a duty of care to these women. You

1104
01:01:24,200 --> 01:01:27,040
Speaker 2: have a duty of care to Emma's family who are

1105
01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:29,440
Speaker 2: seeking justice. You have a duty of care to the

1106
01:01:29,480 --> 01:01:34,320
Speaker 2: police investigation. And so the right thing to do was

1107
01:01:34,360 --> 01:01:36,680
Speaker 2: to say, I would love your story, but it's more

1108
01:01:36,720 --> 01:01:38,440
Speaker 2: important you go to the police and I will put

1109
01:01:38,440 --> 01:01:42,600
Speaker 2: you in touch with the officers involved. And some of

1110
01:01:42,640 --> 01:01:45,560
Speaker 2: the women I never found out whether they did or

1111
01:01:45,600 --> 01:01:48,880
Speaker 2: not until I saw the charge sheet. I was like, God,

1112
01:01:48,920 --> 01:01:51,480
Speaker 2: you went, you did it, well done. You know I

1113
01:01:51,520 --> 01:01:54,560
Speaker 2: would not find out other women I drove them to

1114
01:01:54,600 --> 01:01:57,479
Speaker 2: the police station. One woman I took to the police station.

1115
01:01:57,560 --> 01:01:59,560
Speaker 2: She wouldn't give her a statement unless I sat in

1116
01:01:59,600 --> 01:02:04,800
Speaker 2: the room with her. You know, it was just difficult.

1117
01:02:05,480 --> 01:02:09,080
Speaker 1: I can imagine how difficult you are really you're embedded

1118
01:02:09,160 --> 01:02:15,520
Speaker 1: in the whole investigation. Look, it's not giving away. We

1119
01:02:15,600 --> 01:02:17,800
Speaker 1: know the end result of it. He was convicted the trial.

1120
01:02:18,160 --> 01:02:21,320
Speaker 1: I will talk about that in the second part, but

1121
01:02:21,760 --> 01:02:24,120
Speaker 1: I'd like to finish the podcast here and say, look,

1122
01:02:24,120 --> 01:02:27,200
Speaker 1: he got convicted and we all lived happily ever after.

1123
01:02:27,640 --> 01:02:32,280
Speaker 1: But what has blown me away, disappointed me was the

1124
01:02:32,320 --> 01:02:36,960
Speaker 1: information that the investigators, the people leading the investigation, had

1125
01:02:37,080 --> 01:02:41,280
Speaker 1: on the Packer during the course of the investigation, when

1126
01:02:41,280 --> 01:02:44,520
Speaker 1: the whole Turkish line of inquiry was being followed up,

1127
01:02:44,840 --> 01:02:47,760
Speaker 1: and then the fiasco at caught with that, and the

1128
01:02:47,800 --> 01:02:52,200
Speaker 1: impact that has had on so many people, and the

1129
01:02:52,240 --> 01:02:56,800
Speaker 1: way the information came to you. And I was listening

1130
01:02:56,880 --> 01:02:58,880
Speaker 1: and it was sort of the last four parts of

1131
01:02:58,920 --> 01:03:01,800
Speaker 1: the podcast, so I'm thinking, Okay, well, I've seen this

1132
01:03:01,920 --> 01:03:06,520
Speaker 1: an interesting investigation, but from a homicide detectives point of view,

1133
01:03:06,840 --> 01:03:10,000
Speaker 1: I was just so disappointed with some of the things

1134
01:03:10,000 --> 01:03:13,880
Speaker 1: that were missed in that investigation. And I think we

1135
01:03:14,000 --> 01:03:18,440
Speaker 1: talked before We're miked up that there might be a

1136
01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:21,439
Speaker 1: public inquiry. There's been calls for a public inquiry. These

1137
01:03:21,480 --> 01:03:22,800
Speaker 1: type of things just shouldn't happen.

1138
01:03:23,200 --> 01:03:25,400
Speaker 2: No, I mean there will be a public inquiry. I'm sure. Well,

1139
01:03:25,400 --> 01:03:28,479
Speaker 2: they've said there will be a public inquiry. I think

1140
01:03:28,520 --> 01:03:31,840
Speaker 2: if the story finished there, it's bad enough. But what

1141
01:03:31,880 --> 01:03:37,240
Speaker 2: we then went on to discover, it's just worse than

1142
01:03:37,280 --> 01:03:38,440
Speaker 2: you could possibly imagine.

1143
01:03:38,480 --> 01:03:41,680
Speaker 1: And the people's lives and the further victims, all sorts

1144
01:03:41,720 --> 01:03:43,560
Speaker 1: of things. But we'll talk about that when we get

1145
01:03:43,560 --> 01:03:46,200
Speaker 1: back to part two. So we'll just have a short

1146
01:03:46,200 --> 01:03:51,040
Speaker 1: break