1
00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:05,960
Speaker 1: But on top of that, for her was the sense

2
00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:08,520
Speaker 1: that you would be doing something, you know, really wrong

3
00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:11,520
Speaker 1: as a Catholic. But I think all young women must

4
00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:14,280
Speaker 1: have had a fear of an unwanted pregnancy at that time,

5
00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:17,560
Speaker 1: and she certainly mentioned that she found it quite exhausting,

6
00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:19,520
Speaker 1: you know, for she just as she describes it, it's

7
00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:21,759
Speaker 1: fighting for your life in the backseats of cars with

8
00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:23,360
Speaker 1: blokes who only wanted one thing.

9
00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:26,279
Speaker 2: I'm Jen Kelly from the Herald Son and this is

10
00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:28,960
Speaker 2: in Black and White, a podcast about some of Australia's

11
00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:33,120
Speaker 2: forgotten characters. When a young woman named Marie Grunky entered

12
00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:36,400
Speaker 2: a strict convent in Melbourne in the nineteen sixties, she

13
00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:41,120
Speaker 2: couldn't tell anyone her shameful secret. Marie had fallen pregnant

14
00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:43,839
Speaker 2: outside of marriage and was forced to give up her

15
00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:48,360
Speaker 2: baby for adoption at a time when single motherhood was unthinkable.

16
00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:52,919
Speaker 2: That Marie's story would have a surprising ending. Her story

17
00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:56,400
Speaker 2: is told in a new book called Unconventional Women, The

18
00:00:56,480 --> 00:01:00,680
Speaker 2: Story of the Last Blessed Sacrament Sisters in Australia, by

19
00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:12,400
Speaker 2: writer Sarah Gilbert, who joins us now Welcome to the podcast, Sarah,

20
00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:13,160
Speaker 2: Thank you very much.

21
00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:15,040
Speaker 1: Jan, It's great to be here now.

22
00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:17,920
Speaker 2: The story of Mari Grunky is one of six women's

23
00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:20,880
Speaker 2: stories that you've included in the book. Her story is

24
00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:24,760
Speaker 2: so captivating that really it's an obvious inclusion for this book,

25
00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:25,160
Speaker 2: isn't it.

26
00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:30,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, it certainly is. It's quite an unusual story or

27
00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:33,679
Speaker 1: unexpected story. I mean, I don't think it's very hard

28
00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:36,440
Speaker 1: to know how unusual her story really is. But I

29
00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:38,920
Speaker 1: think if we think about the kinds of women that

30
00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:44,080
Speaker 1: are nuns in the popular imagination, they are very innocent,

31
00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:48,840
Speaker 1: pure women who who have sought to be close to

32
00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:54,880
Speaker 1: God by giving up everything, including you know, family, their sex, lives,

33
00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:58,200
Speaker 1: you know, having any kind of fun or any freedom

34
00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:01,680
Speaker 1: in their youth. And her story is really nothing like that.

35
00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:05,480
Speaker 1: And in fact, she was quite a mature vocation. So

36
00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:08,640
Speaker 1: she came to the combat when she was not a

37
00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:12,120
Speaker 1: very very young woman, and she entered with a bit

38
00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:16,079
Speaker 1: of a secret, really because she had lived a very

39
00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:20,360
Speaker 1: full life before joining. And part of her story is

40
00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:25,040
Speaker 1: that she felt pregnant outside of wedlock and lost her

41
00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:28,560
Speaker 1: baby to adoption. And that's something that she didn't tell

42
00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:32,000
Speaker 1: anyone about. None of her sisters in religion knew about that.

43
00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:34,720
Speaker 3: Okay, sounds fascinating.

44
00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:37,079
Speaker 2: We're going to hear where that storyline takes us a

45
00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:39,960
Speaker 2: little bit down the track. But to begin with, where

46
00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:41,480
Speaker 2: does her life story begin.

47
00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:45,359
Speaker 1: Well, she's born in nineteen thirty eight in a really

48
00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:49,639
Speaker 1: tiny town called Gumbungee, which is near to Woomba in Queensland,

49
00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,359
Speaker 1: and she was part of a pretty close knit community

50
00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:58,079
Speaker 1: of small holding farmers who ran mixed farms. And they

51
00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:01,880
Speaker 1: were nearly all descended from German migrants, so nineteenth century

52
00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:05,720
Speaker 1: German migrants. They were really successful farmers, really good at

53
00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:08,919
Speaker 1: getting the most out of quite modest pots of land.

54
00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:13,639
Speaker 1: And her family, eventually there were thirteen siblings in total,

55
00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:17,680
Speaker 1: really lived off the farm. They grew all their own food,

56
00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:20,680
Speaker 1: baked their own bread, made all of their own German sausages.

57
00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:24,920
Speaker 1: They house had no electricity, so they sort of lived

58
00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:28,360
Speaker 1: in very simple way with the rhythms of nature. You know,

59
00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:30,880
Speaker 1: the son went down, they lit their candles, they lit

60
00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:34,160
Speaker 1: the fire, and they ate what they grew and what

61
00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:35,360
Speaker 1: animals they raised.

62
00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:38,760
Speaker 2: Now, given she became a nun, I have to ask

63
00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:40,920
Speaker 2: did they have quite a religious upbringing?

64
00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:45,680
Speaker 1: Well, yes, I mean they were Catholics and they were

65
00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:48,920
Speaker 1: certainly like most people who were Catholics in that time,

66
00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:51,320
Speaker 1: or you know, most Christians, I suppose in that time

67
00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:55,000
Speaker 1: in Australia, they were church going mass going people. They

68
00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,280
Speaker 1: packed you know, the thirteen kids into the single car

69
00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:02,400
Speaker 1: and motored to the local church for mass. I don't

70
00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:06,240
Speaker 1: think they were especially kind of pious, but I do

71
00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:09,920
Speaker 1: think that her mother, when she had an inkling that

72
00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:12,800
Speaker 1: Marie might become a nun, was quite pleased about that

73
00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:17,200
Speaker 1: and was sort of encouraging that as something in Marie's future.

74
00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:20,720
Speaker 3: And tell us more about her education.

75
00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:24,120
Speaker 1: Well, she went to the local school to begin with,

76
00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:29,120
Speaker 1: and then she went to a Catholic school into Woomba

77
00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:32,400
Speaker 1: for a little while, and then eventually because she'd sort

78
00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:35,440
Speaker 1: of been earmarked to be a nun by the nuns

79
00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:38,240
Speaker 1: that taught her most Catholic school or else she was

80
00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:41,920
Speaker 1: taught by nuns, she was then sort of prepared for

81
00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:44,000
Speaker 1: what's called the Generalist. So it was a school in

82
00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:46,440
Speaker 1: Brisbane where she would have had to board that was

83
00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:51,040
Speaker 1: really for preparing women and young young women and young

84
00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:55,120
Speaker 1: men who wanted to go into religious orders. But she

85
00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:58,400
Speaker 1: sort of she sort of balked at the last minute.

86
00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:01,920
Speaker 1: I think she was quite a afraid of having to

87
00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:06,200
Speaker 1: go to boarding school that far from home, and her

88
00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:09,520
Speaker 1: mother had just had her thirteenth child, so the littlest

89
00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:12,840
Speaker 1: Marie's littlest brother, and I think her mother could see

90
00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:16,240
Speaker 1: that she would be very homesick. And also perhaps Marie

91
00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:18,839
Speaker 1: thinks her mother realized that she wouldn't really be able

92
00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:22,039
Speaker 1: to manage with all those little kids. So Marie missed

93
00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:24,120
Speaker 1: out on I guess the last few years of high

94
00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:26,760
Speaker 1: school to stay at the farm, which she loved and

95
00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:28,760
Speaker 1: help her mum.

96
00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:33,480
Speaker 2: So how old was Marie when she eventually left home, Well.

97
00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:35,400
Speaker 1: She left home at eighteen, and in fact none of

98
00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:37,599
Speaker 1: the children stayed on the farm. It wasn't big enough

99
00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:41,120
Speaker 1: to sustain adult children and their partners and their children,

100
00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:44,080
Speaker 1: so every one of those kids left home at eighteen,

101
00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:48,359
Speaker 1: and Marie found work at the local railway, so she

102
00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:50,560
Speaker 1: board it and worked with other young women at too

103
00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:53,760
Speaker 1: Woomba railway station, and then soon after that she moved

104
00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:55,960
Speaker 1: to Brisbane to do the same kind of work, and

105
00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:58,320
Speaker 1: she recalls that it was really good fun and she

106
00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:01,440
Speaker 1: was really very good at it. Used to feeding large

107
00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:03,839
Speaker 1: numbers of people because of family life, and she worked

108
00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:08,160
Speaker 1: in the railway tea room and really enjoyed living in

109
00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:10,560
Speaker 1: that communal way with the other young women who worked

110
00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:13,599
Speaker 1: at the railway station, and you know, enjoying Brisbane life,

111
00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:16,360
Speaker 1: going to going to dances and having a drink at

112
00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:18,839
Speaker 1: the ladies lounge and that sort of thing that women

113
00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:20,760
Speaker 1: did in the nineteen fifties.

114
00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:24,559
Speaker 2: Interesting And was she still pretty religious through this period?

115
00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:26,800
Speaker 2: Was she still going to church every Sunday and that

116
00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:27,360
Speaker 2: kind of thing.

117
00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:29,960
Speaker 1: Yes, she would have went. I think she would have

118
00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:33,800
Speaker 1: continue going to Mass every Sunday all her life for sure. Yes,

119
00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:39,279
Speaker 1: very much a believer and she had she had a

120
00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:42,120
Speaker 1: really strong relationship with her faith. I don't think that

121
00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:45,800
Speaker 1: that was informed by her love of nature as a

122
00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:48,920
Speaker 1: child growing up on the farm, and she was very

123
00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:51,560
Speaker 1: she had a little bit of a mystic side. I

124
00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:56,360
Speaker 1: suppose she describes quite quite a few kind of you know,

125
00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:00,279
Speaker 1: smaller to sort of more significant religious experience as you

126
00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:03,600
Speaker 1: could call them, where she had a very powerful sense

127
00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:08,440
Speaker 1: of God whatever however you might define it, and how

128
00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:10,640
Speaker 1: she defined it changed over the course of her life.

129
00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:13,000
Speaker 1: But yeah, she was a mascoer for sure.

130
00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:17,360
Speaker 2: But her life took a pretty interesting turn soon afterwards,

131
00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:18,560
Speaker 2: didn't it.

132
00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:21,240
Speaker 1: It did so one of the girls that worked at

133
00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:25,520
Speaker 1: the railway had found herself pregnant and was really in

134
00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:27,760
Speaker 1: a bit of a panic and had told Mary, look,

135
00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:31,560
Speaker 1: I can't tell my family. I'm going to go hop

136
00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:33,040
Speaker 1: on a boat to New Zealand and I'm going to

137
00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:34,560
Speaker 1: have the baby and I'm going to give it up

138
00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:36,680
Speaker 1: for adoption and then come home and say I been

139
00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:39,440
Speaker 1: on a holiday. And Marray thought, oh, this poor girl,

140
00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:41,320
Speaker 1: she can't go on her own. I'll go with you.

141
00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:43,679
Speaker 1: And she had this other really great friend called Rusty,

142
00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:46,280
Speaker 1: and Russy said, well, let's all go, and so the

143
00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:48,680
Speaker 1: three of them are all ready to go, but in fact,

144
00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:52,280
Speaker 1: this young pregnant woman stayed home. She told her family,

145
00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:54,680
Speaker 1: and the family embraced her and said that they would

146
00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:57,680
Speaker 1: support her, which really sort of struck Maray because she

147
00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:00,320
Speaker 1: didn't believe that that would be possible in a Catholic family.

148
00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:02,760
Speaker 1: So this young woman was from a Protestant family and

149
00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:06,119
Speaker 1: that was they were obviously open minded enough or bold

150
00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:09,240
Speaker 1: enough to give her that option. So Marie and Rusty

151
00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:12,000
Speaker 1: had their tickets though, so they took the train down

152
00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:13,920
Speaker 1: to Sydney and boarded the boat to Auckland.

153
00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:17,160
Speaker 3: And what do they do from there.

154
00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:20,840
Speaker 1: Well, this was nineteen sixty three ninety sixty four that

155
00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:24,080
Speaker 1: she was over in New Zealand. So they were quite

156
00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:27,200
Speaker 1: skilled hospitality workers by this time, and they worked their

157
00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:31,120
Speaker 1: way around New Zealand as waitresses in hotel restaurants. So

158
00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:34,600
Speaker 1: again they had their little boarding quarters with other women.

159
00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:38,200
Speaker 1: All the other hotel staff, made lots of friends, and

160
00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:41,200
Speaker 1: it was really a time that Marie remembers as the

161
00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:44,040
Speaker 1: time of really great freedom. They went out a lot,

162
00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:48,360
Speaker 1: they met famous people, celebrities in the grand hotel dining rooms.

163
00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:52,360
Speaker 1: She remembers serving a table with Rudolph Nireev, the very

164
00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:58,000
Speaker 1: famous ballet dancer, and Margot Fontaine equally Slarna, and you know,

165
00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:00,319
Speaker 1: they went to dances, they went on dates, and they

166
00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:03,000
Speaker 1: just lived life to the fall as sort of you know,

167
00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:05,160
Speaker 1: young attractive women.

168
00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:09,400
Speaker 2: It sounds like just such an amazing adventure. And how

169
00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:12,000
Speaker 2: old is mari at this point. She's still late teens

170
00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:14,040
Speaker 2: or she's early twenties by now, No, she's.

171
00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:16,920
Speaker 1: In her early sort of yeah, around her mid twenties, yeah.

172
00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:22,920
Speaker 2: Okay, and so she's dating, uh huh, yeah, and just dating.

173
00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:25,080
Speaker 1: But she's illustrict Catholic, so you know, it has a

174
00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:27,280
Speaker 1: limit to that. So she and I mean, you know,

175
00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:30,640
Speaker 1: this is before the appeal is widely available. So I

176
00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:34,000
Speaker 1: think even for women who didn't have, you know, didn't

177
00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:38,040
Speaker 1: have a sense of sexual freedom as related to sin,

178
00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:41,160
Speaker 1: which you know was not even just a religious belief.

179
00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:43,760
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously there were huge double standards at that

180
00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:47,360
Speaker 1: time about sexuality and what was appropriate for men and

181
00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:49,920
Speaker 1: what was appropriate for women. But on top of that,

182
00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:52,400
Speaker 1: for her was the sense that you would be doing something,

183
00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:55,199
Speaker 1: you know, really wrong as a Catholic. But I think

184
00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:57,400
Speaker 1: all all young women must have had a fear of

185
00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:00,640
Speaker 1: an unwanted pregnancy at that time, and she certainly mentioned

186
00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:03,600
Speaker 1: that she found it quite exhausting, you know, she just

187
00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:05,560
Speaker 1: as she describes it, sort of fighting for your life

188
00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:08,040
Speaker 1: in the backseats of cars with flolks who only wanted

189
00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:08,440
Speaker 1: one thing.

190
00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:12,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, and what's happening sort of in the broader culture.

191
00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:14,280
Speaker 3: I mean, this is the sixties.

192
00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:17,600
Speaker 2: Is that why something is possible like this for someone

193
00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:21,240
Speaker 2: like Mari to be traveling and you know out there

194
00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:23,840
Speaker 2: in New Zealand traveling around with this has been possible,

195
00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:27,080
Speaker 2: you know, fifteen twenty years earlier to be experiencing this

196
00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:29,400
Speaker 2: kind of adventure well.

197
00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:32,960
Speaker 1: I suppose that these are the sort of immediate post

198
00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:37,720
Speaker 1: war years where women have proven their worth in the

199
00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:40,480
Speaker 1: workforce in an Australia where a lot of young men

200
00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:42,679
Speaker 1: had gone off to war, first in the First World

201
00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:45,719
Speaker 1: War and then the Second World War, so women had

202
00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:47,880
Speaker 1: filled a lot of jobs that had previously been done

203
00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:51,160
Speaker 1: by men. And you know, women were working in factories,

204
00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:54,559
Speaker 1: they were working in the service injury industry, in retail

205
00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:57,520
Speaker 1: and as waitresses. And I think that these this was

206
00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,880
Speaker 1: a newfound sort of freedom maybe, But I also think

207
00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:05,120
Speaker 1: that women who came from families that weren't wealthy, well,

208
00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:08,520
Speaker 1: I mean those women always worked, you know, either in

209
00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:12,640
Speaker 1: these kinds of hospitality industries or whatever kind of work

210
00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:15,240
Speaker 1: might have been available to them. So in that sense,

211
00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:18,920
Speaker 1: I think mari always expected to work. But certainly the

212
00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:24,120
Speaker 1: availability of a certain measure of travel and freedom and

213
00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:26,640
Speaker 1: you know, going out unchaperoned and all of that sort

214
00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:28,920
Speaker 1: of stuff is all sort of a product of that

215
00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:34,559
Speaker 1: early twentieth century, you know, feminism and the massive changes

216
00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:37,520
Speaker 1: that were brought by World War one or two as well.

217
00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:39,760
Speaker 1: But you know, we really are it's the sort of

218
00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:42,839
Speaker 1: it's the sixties, but you know, in Australia and certainly

219
00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:45,640
Speaker 1: in New Zealand. I don't it's not really the swinging sixties,

220
00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:49,000
Speaker 1: you know, I think that for most cities in Yeah,

221
00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:51,840
Speaker 1: I think probably really could fairly say for all cities

222
00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:55,920
Speaker 1: in Australia that you know, the real kind of classic

223
00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:59,400
Speaker 1: swinging sixties, as we imagine in say somewhere like London,

224
00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:04,120
Speaker 1: arrived in Australia, you know, a decade or so later. Yeah,

225
00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:07,000
Speaker 1: and you know New Zealand, these are very These are

226
00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:11,280
Speaker 1: still pretty small, pretty provincial cities, as were most Australian

227
00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:12,520
Speaker 1: cities in the nineteen sixties.

228
00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,720
Speaker 2: Okay, so she's dating, but she's getting a bit tired

229
00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:18,120
Speaker 2: of that. So what happens next.

230
00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:22,600
Speaker 1: Well, I don't think she really had She wasn't really

231
00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:25,800
Speaker 1: looking for a husband, you know, this was this was

232
00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:29,319
Speaker 1: I don't think she necessarily was committed to the idea

233
00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:32,360
Speaker 1: of being a nun, but it was probably still in

234
00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:35,280
Speaker 1: her mind as a possibility. She had a really strong faith.

235
00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:38,960
Speaker 1: Zealand was just an adventure. It was a trip. It

236
00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:41,360
Speaker 1: was an opportunity to have some fun. She wasn't looking

237
00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:43,800
Speaker 1: to settle down. She was looking to return home to

238
00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:47,640
Speaker 1: where her family was. But then in Queenstown. She met

239
00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:50,000
Speaker 1: a man called Max, a young man called Max, and

240
00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:53,320
Speaker 1: they fell in love. He was really funny and charming

241
00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:57,400
Speaker 1: and yeah, Matt. Mary just found him just really, really appealing,

242
00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:00,199
Speaker 1: and they spent a lot of time together and in

243
00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:04,760
Speaker 1: the relationship became closer, and Mary found that she was pregnant,

244
00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:08,440
Speaker 1: and so then she was stuck in the dilemma that

245
00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:12,439
Speaker 1: her young friend the railway found herself in, but really

246
00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:15,120
Speaker 1: a far more profound one because Mary knew that she

247
00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:18,800
Speaker 1: would never be able to share this with her family,

248
00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:22,400
Speaker 1: and so her hope was that she and Max would

249
00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:27,880
Speaker 1: get married. And was Max Catholic? Max, I don't know,

250
00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:30,280
Speaker 1: to be honest, I don't know. I'd suspect he wasn't,

251
00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:33,840
Speaker 1: But in any case, he was unprepared for marriage. So

252
00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:38,680
Speaker 1: Mary hoped they were still together. She hoped, and she prayed,

253
00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:42,920
Speaker 1: but her pregnancy wore on and Max sort of, yeah,

254
00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:45,880
Speaker 1: Max wasn't really coming to the party. So as she

255
00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:49,120
Speaker 1: as her pregnancy started to show, it became impossible for

256
00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:52,319
Speaker 1: her to work in the restaurants in the hotel. So

257
00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:56,199
Speaker 1: her very loyal friend always accompanying her, Rusty, they got

258
00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:59,720
Speaker 1: a job in a stocking factory and Marie. Marie eventually

259
00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:02,520
Speaker 1: sought council. She was back in Auckland. By this time,

260
00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:05,679
Speaker 1: she'd abandoned Max because he hadn't been able to come

261
00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:08,760
Speaker 1: up the idea of getting married, and back in Auckland

262
00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:12,920
Speaker 1: working at a stocking factory, she found herself seeking the

263
00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:16,520
Speaker 1: support and council of a priest at the Auckland Cathedral.

264
00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:21,240
Speaker 2: It's fascinating, isn't it She's remained committed to her Catholic

265
00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:22,400
Speaker 2: faith all this time.

266
00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:26,840
Speaker 1: Yes, I mean I think that really it's it can

267
00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:29,640
Speaker 1: be difficult for a lot of Australia has become so secular,

268
00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:32,160
Speaker 1: and I think it can be quite difficult for a

269
00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:35,360
Speaker 1: lot of us to imagine the role that religion played

270
00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:37,960
Speaker 1: in so many people's lives at that time. I mean

271
00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:41,320
Speaker 1: it was the basis of family life. It was. You know,

272
00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:43,960
Speaker 1: if you were a Catholic living in a country town

273
00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:47,120
Speaker 1: in Australia, really, you know, you grew up in an

274
00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:50,560
Speaker 1: entirely Catholic world. You weren't at school with Protestants, you weren't.

275
00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:54,480
Speaker 1: You know, you went you played at the all the

276
00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,000
Speaker 1: you know, the local dances were run by your church.

277
00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:59,960
Speaker 1: You were in the church tennis club, you know, if

278
00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:02,560
Speaker 1: you're a Protestant, your parents sent you to Sunday school

279
00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:08,000
Speaker 1: on Sundays. So it was really a kind of a

280
00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:11,520
Speaker 1: very very strong sort of social and cultural enmeshment. And

281
00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:13,960
Speaker 1: on top of that, in Mary's case, there was a

282
00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:16,080
Speaker 1: very very genuine, very deep faith.

283
00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:19,080
Speaker 3: So she didn't know this priest.

284
00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:22,760
Speaker 1: No. She started going to Mass at the cathedral. She

285
00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:26,000
Speaker 1: really really loved mass. Mass made her feel really really

286
00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,600
Speaker 1: connected to her faith, and it gave her a lot

287
00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:32,240
Speaker 1: of peace and an opportunity to reflect. And I think

288
00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:34,280
Speaker 1: that she sort of got a bit of a measure

289
00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:36,880
Speaker 1: of this priest going to Mass and felt that he

290
00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:38,760
Speaker 1: was someone she might be able to talk to. So

291
00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:41,960
Speaker 1: she began talking to him, and then after a while

292
00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:44,840
Speaker 1: she sort of unburdened her herself to him, and he

293
00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:48,720
Speaker 1: reassured her that all would be well, that he would

294
00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:52,240
Speaker 1: help her, and that he would take care of her.

295
00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:54,040
Speaker 1: And one of the things that I think she found

296
00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:56,920
Speaker 1: really touching was that he gave her a blessing and

297
00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:59,440
Speaker 1: he blessed her baby, her unborn baby as well, which

298
00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:02,080
Speaker 1: made her that she wasn't judged.

299
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:04,320
Speaker 3: Okay, And what did he advise her to do.

300
00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:09,080
Speaker 1: Well, I think I don't even know if it was

301
00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:13,800
Speaker 1: so much advised as just assumed that if Max didn't

302
00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:15,880
Speaker 1: show up and if they you know, if they couldn't

303
00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:18,400
Speaker 1: get him to the altar, there was not going to

304
00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:22,280
Speaker 1: be an opportunity for Mari to become a mother. This

305
00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:25,760
Speaker 1: is a time when there's no single mother's pension. There's

306
00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:29,720
Speaker 1: enormous social sanction for young women who are pregnant out

307
00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:31,840
Speaker 1: of wedlock, and that doesn't it's you know, that's not

308
00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:33,840
Speaker 1: just Catholics. I mean, if you look at the history

309
00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:37,280
Speaker 1: in Australia and it's similar in New Zealand, so many

310
00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:42,240
Speaker 1: unwed young women lost their babies to an adoption industry

311
00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:45,360
Speaker 1: that was really pretty coercive. You know, Julia Gillard made

312
00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:48,040
Speaker 1: an apology to those women when she was Prime Minister

313
00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:53,320
Speaker 1: and so again, so she had those huge social restraints

314
00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:57,600
Speaker 1: upon her in addition to the you know, Catholic guilt

315
00:16:57,680 --> 00:16:59,840
Speaker 1: if you like, or the you know, the sense that

316
00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:02,000
Speaker 1: she was going to be doing something really wrong. I

317
00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:04,840
Speaker 1: think we lived in a culture where women were very

318
00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:08,120
Speaker 1: shamed if they'd bring it out of wedlock and were

319
00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:11,560
Speaker 1: basically made to feel that they were you know, ipso

320
00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:15,800
Speaker 1: facto as young single women unfit mothers, and so another

321
00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:19,199
Speaker 1: option would be sought. I'm not sure that she was

322
00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:22,320
Speaker 1: explicitly advised, but sort of. They were the kind of

323
00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:26,119
Speaker 1: only two tracks, and she hoped that Max might show up,

324
00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:27,560
Speaker 1: but in fact he never did.

325
00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:30,440
Speaker 2: We'll be back soon to find out what happened next,

326
00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:44,240
Speaker 2: so stay with us. So did Mary accept this or

327
00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:46,560
Speaker 2: was she distressed that she would need to give up

328
00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:47,640
Speaker 2: the baby?

329
00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:52,760
Speaker 1: Well, I think her distress was sort of channeled at

330
00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:56,560
Speaker 1: a sort of hopefulness right to the last minute, even

331
00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:59,600
Speaker 1: after she'd had the baby, that Max may swoop in

332
00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:03,520
Speaker 1: and make it all okay. But yeah, I think it's

333
00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:06,800
Speaker 1: interesting when you do these sorts of oral history interviews

334
00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:09,840
Speaker 1: and you're working with people who like all people, and

335
00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,320
Speaker 1: these are women who are sort of, you know, in

336
00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:15,920
Speaker 1: the last decades of their lives, reflecting on and telling

337
00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:19,200
Speaker 1: a story that they've told many times before. Our memories,

338
00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:24,160
Speaker 1: you know, change, they shift. How we remember things changes

339
00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:25,960
Speaker 1: depending on whether or not we find a happy end

340
00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:28,080
Speaker 1: to that story or an unhappy end. And I think

341
00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:32,080
Speaker 1: the way Mariy certainly remembers this is that she didn't

342
00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:35,800
Speaker 1: have a choice. And I think that, you know, from

343
00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:39,160
Speaker 1: a cold eyed sort of historical lens. I think she's right,

344
00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:42,400
Speaker 1: so that she didn't she wasn't presented with a choice,

345
00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:44,240
Speaker 1: and there.

346
00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:47,160
Speaker 2: Was obviously no question she could not tell her family

347
00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:47,680
Speaker 2: about this.

348
00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:52,280
Speaker 1: No, there was no question in her mind that her

349
00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:54,520
Speaker 1: family that she could tell her family.

350
00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:57,719
Speaker 3: No, and that included her many siblings.

351
00:18:57,960 --> 00:18:59,400
Speaker 1: That included all of her siblings.

352
00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:04,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, So was Rusty the only person who knew in

353
00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:04,800
Speaker 2: her circle?

354
00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:07,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, Rusty in the priest and Max.

355
00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:08,879
Speaker 3: That's incredible.

356
00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:12,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, so then, I mean she was she did meet

357
00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:14,560
Speaker 1: other people as part of the process. So the priest

358
00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:18,040
Speaker 1: arranged for her to stay with a local Catholic family

359
00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:21,920
Speaker 1: in the last weeks of her pregnancy when she couldn't work,

360
00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:23,840
Speaker 1: and then when she was ready to have the back,

361
00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:27,040
Speaker 1: she had the baby at a maternity ward, and then

362
00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:30,960
Speaker 1: after that she went to a home for unwed mothers

363
00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:36,200
Speaker 1: that was run by some Catholic nuns and that is where, Yeah,

364
00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:38,680
Speaker 1: that's where she lost her baby. He was a boy,

365
00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:43,040
Speaker 1: and that was very very distressing for her, very distressing

366
00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:46,560
Speaker 1: for her. And you know, she has Yeah, she's definitely

367
00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:51,440
Speaker 1: in the course of our interview that was she told

368
00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:53,880
Speaker 1: that story many times, but it was still a very

369
00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:55,200
Speaker 1: distressing memory for her.

370
00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:59,040
Speaker 3: Okay, And was she able to name her son.

371
00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,480
Speaker 1: Well, I mean she may have named him, but she

372
00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:05,160
Speaker 1: he wasn't going to keep that name, you know, so

373
00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:08,960
Speaker 1: they definitely she was able to hold him. She was

374
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:14,199
Speaker 1: given medicine immediately to dry up her milk on a bottle.

375
00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:17,040
Speaker 1: She spent a bit of time with him, but not much,

376
00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,000
Speaker 1: and then the baby and she was definitely she was

377
00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:24,240
Speaker 1: spoken to by social workers, by the nuns that you know,

378
00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:27,320
Speaker 1: if she had this baby, it would be very selfish,

379
00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:30,520
Speaker 1: it would be because of her needs, not the baby's needs.

380
00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:33,240
Speaker 1: That the baby would be better off with a father

381
00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:35,600
Speaker 1: and a mother, a couple, and that if she did

382
00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:39,080
Speaker 1: insist on keeping the baby, the chances were that, you know,

383
00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:41,000
Speaker 1: it wouldn't work out and she wouldn't be able to

384
00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:43,600
Speaker 1: look after him, and he would become a award of

385
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:47,920
Speaker 1: the state. And she was really terrified by that, and

386
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:51,399
Speaker 1: so she really didn't feel she had another choice. She

387
00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:55,280
Speaker 1: was convinced that it would really sort of I mean,

388
00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:58,840
Speaker 1: it would sort of wrek havoc extremely in her own

389
00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:02,040
Speaker 1: life and possibly in the life of her child. And

390
00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:06,880
Speaker 1: so she she I think she accepted that this, if

391
00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:08,800
Speaker 1: this was the way it was then this must be

392
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:13,200
Speaker 1: the way that it had to be, that God needed

393
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:14,280
Speaker 1: it to be this way as well.

394
00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:19,080
Speaker 3: Now tell us more about Max. Max obviously never showed up.

395
00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:21,439
Speaker 1: No, Max never showed up. I mean I think he

396
00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:24,040
Speaker 1: kind of he reappeared a couple of times. I think

397
00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:26,639
Speaker 1: back in Australia, he showed up in pursuit of Mari,

398
00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:30,320
Speaker 1: but it sort of she'd lost faith in him, quite understandably.

399
00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:33,800
Speaker 1: So yeah, soon after having the baby she was back

400
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:37,800
Speaker 1: in Australia. But before before that happened, she felt she

401
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,760
Speaker 1: did really become quite depressed and she had, I think,

402
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,760
Speaker 1: what is probably the most important religious experience in her life. So,

403
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:48,560
Speaker 1: having felt everything kind of drained away from her hopes

404
00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:53,639
Speaker 1: for motherhood, her feeling of self worth, she went to

405
00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,560
Speaker 1: a ceremony that's called benediction. You don't come across it

406
00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,080
Speaker 1: very often these days, but it was a really regular

407
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:03,000
Speaker 1: ceremony that was held at Catholic churches in the sixties,

408
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,720
Speaker 1: and it sort of involves a lot of incense and

409
00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:10,560
Speaker 1: a lot of chanting, and the Blessed Sacrament is exposed

410
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:14,320
Speaker 1: at the altar. So that's the host that Catholics take

411
00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:17,360
Speaker 1: at communion, and it's a kind of there's a big

412
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:19,960
Speaker 1: one and it's in a really kind of decorative monstrance,

413
00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:22,159
Speaker 1: and people are that's the focus of the prayer. And

414
00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:25,119
Speaker 1: at one of those ceremonies she did she felt a

415
00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:28,040
Speaker 1: sort of real recovery. She felt a connection that she

416
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:31,439
Speaker 1: describes with both God and with her son, and a

417
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:34,440
Speaker 1: sense that she was completely forgiven and completely loved, and

418
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:36,919
Speaker 1: that it's very I mean, many of the women in

419
00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:40,320
Speaker 1: the story just tried to describe religious experiences to me,

420
00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:43,640
Speaker 1: but they are pretty beyond words, I think. But this

421
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,439
Speaker 1: was something that became very important to Murray. So she

422
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,280
Speaker 1: carried that with her went back to Australia with Rusty

423
00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,919
Speaker 1: on the boat, and yeah, never breathed a word of

424
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:54,720
Speaker 1: what had happened to her to anyone in her family.

425
00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,920
Speaker 2: And from there did she decide to find a convent

426
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:00,480
Speaker 2: to join.

427
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:05,399
Speaker 1: Well, I think that came gradually so, and she and

428
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:09,159
Speaker 1: Rusty went to Melbourne together. Maury was still a very

429
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:11,840
Speaker 1: faithful Catholic and her faith had been deepened in fact,

430
00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:16,119
Speaker 1: by that experience at Benediction. They worked around Melbourne and

431
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:19,000
Speaker 1: in country Victoria, doing all sorts of work, and I

432
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:22,280
Speaker 1: think she did at that point decide that she was

433
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:24,639
Speaker 1: going to be yes, that she was going to go

434
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,199
Speaker 1: back to her idea of being a nun. You know,

435
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,240
Speaker 1: she felt, I think somehow that if she went back

436
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,680
Speaker 1: to her idea of being a nun, that she could

437
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:37,360
Speaker 1: somehow keep the faith with her son and stay connected

438
00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:40,239
Speaker 1: to him rather than sort of push him into the

439
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:43,400
Speaker 1: past in some ways. So so she didn't know though

440
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:47,000
Speaker 1: which kind of nune that she wanted to be, But somehow,

441
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,240
Speaker 1: through a woman at work, she heard about a group

442
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:53,040
Speaker 1: of sisters called the Servants of the Blessed Sacrament, and

443
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:57,240
Speaker 1: that really seemed to connect with that experience that Mary

444
00:23:57,280 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 1: had had a benediction, So that was very focused on

445
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:03,520
Speaker 1: this idea of Jesus being present in the world in

446
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 1: the form of that Blessed Sacrament, which was very much

447
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,800
Speaker 1: the way Catholics thought at that time. And she said, oh, well,

448
00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:13,120
Speaker 1: they sound like the crew for me, and she attended

449
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 1: their chapel and she met with the Mother Superior and

450
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 1: had an interview and she was accepted as a postulant.

451
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,480
Speaker 1: So that's the first stage in becoming a nun. And

452
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:26,600
Speaker 1: that was in nineteen sixty six, so she was twenty

453
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:27,359
Speaker 1: seven years old.

454
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 3: Now I'm just interested.

455
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 2: If they knew that she had had a baby and

456
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 2: given up the baby, would she still have been accepted.

457
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 1: Yes, I think she would have been. So I think

458
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:39,600
Speaker 1: if you look at the history of convents, it's just

459
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 1: this idea of the sort of you know, ever virginal

460
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,280
Speaker 1: nune is actually a bit of a bit of a

461
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,439
Speaker 1: cliche that's not really historically right. I mean, certainly that

462
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 1: was the case that a lot of women who were unmarried,

463
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 1: you know, had a vocation and went into the convent.

464
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:55,920
Speaker 1: Some of them didn't have a vocation. They might have

465
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 1: been from a family that there were you know in

466
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:01,080
Speaker 1: Renaissance Italy where there were two many daughters and not

467
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:02,919
Speaker 1: enough money to pay for their dowries, so they were

468
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:04,720
Speaker 1: sent to the convent. Or they might have been women

469
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 1: who were not marriageable on the marriage market because of

470
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 1: a disability, for example, as another possibility. But there were

471
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 1: also many women who entered the convent as widows and

472
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 1: also sort of using invisible inverted commas here what were

473
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 1: called repentant prostitutes, so sex workers who thought that the

474
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 1: convent might provide them with a better way of life

475
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:32,480
Speaker 1: than sex work. So there wasn't a requirement of perpetual virginity,

476
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:35,359
Speaker 1: So I think she would always have been accepted, yes,

477
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 1: And she was in fact regarded as a very an

478
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:42,399
Speaker 1: excellent vocation and a mature vocation is what they described

479
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:43,959
Speaker 1: it as. So she was, you know, she was in

480
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 1: her late twenties and she was sure of what she

481
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 1: wanted to do.

482
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:50,479
Speaker 2: So tell us more about the convent. Was it only

483
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 2: in Melbourne at that stage?

484
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, so in Australia, the Melbourne Convent was the only

485
00:25:55,600 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 1: community in Australia. But the Order of Nuns was founded

486
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 1: in the mid nineteenth century in France with the focus

487
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 1: on the Eucharist.

488
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:07,400
Speaker 3: It was.

489
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:09,880
Speaker 1: It started off as a as an order of priests

490
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 1: and then the sort of sister organization the nuns were established.

491
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:15,679
Speaker 1: And that was a time when there were heaps of

492
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 1: new orders being founded, especially in France and Ireland, and

493
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 1: most of them really were being founded as orders of

494
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,440
Speaker 1: teaching nuns as more and more girls were becoming educated,

495
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 1: or as missionary as missionary orders. But this order was

496
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 1: quite different. It was a really really strictly enclosed order

497
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:38,160
Speaker 1: and it was a contemplative order, so that means that

498
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 1: it was an order really really focused on prayer as

499
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 1: opposed to what they called an active order, which were

500
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:46,440
Speaker 1: nuns who did you know, nursing, teaching, or missionary work.

501
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 1: So these were these were women who really obeyed rules

502
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,160
Speaker 1: that were set out by the Vatican in the Middle

503
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 1: Ages to really bring convents under quite strict control and

504
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,679
Speaker 1: the women inside them under quite strict control. So the

505
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 1: idea was that they would would not leave the convent. Ever,

506
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:09,680
Speaker 1: once they took their final hours, that was it. They'd

507
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,680
Speaker 1: be in there until that day they died. And they

508
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 1: focused absolutely on prayer. So there was a sort of

509
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 1: a series of prayers that took you through the whole

510
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 1: twenty four hours of the day, called the Divine Office,

511
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,879
Speaker 1: and the women in this convent took turns at praying

512
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 1: the Divine Office before in front of the blessed sacrament

513
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:34,679
Speaker 1: exposed in their little chapel that was beautifully decorated with

514
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 1: candles and flowers. And through the day and night, you know,

515
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:40,960
Speaker 1: the little alarm would ring in the night if it

516
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 1: was your turn to go down and do you two

517
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,119
Speaker 1: hours at one in the morning, four in the morning,

518
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:49,639
Speaker 1: whatever time, and that was life. And then they worked

519
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 1: really really hard, also hard, difficult, quite hot, physical labor,

520
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 1: making altar breads for all of the Catholic parishes in Victoria.

521
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:01,920
Speaker 1: So that was that was life. I was very strict

522
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 1: and really kind of quite a quite a medieval way

523
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 1: of life.

524
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 2: Now, there was also something called the discipline.

525
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:12,119
Speaker 3: Can you explain what that was?

526
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 1: This was a bit it was this was a funny thing.

527
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 1: It was quite it was a touchy topic really, the discipline.

528
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:20,639
Speaker 1: I think there was a lot of there was quite

529
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 1: among some of the women I spoke to, and you

530
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,159
Speaker 1: heard about there was quite a lot of you know,

531
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,399
Speaker 1: embarrassment looking back on the discipline. But this was something

532
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 1: that one of the women I interviewed noticed, one of

533
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,120
Speaker 1: the older nuns, and this is the outfit in Melbourne

534
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 1: was founded by French Canadian nuns came over. So it

535
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 1: came over from Quebec to set up the order in

536
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 1: Melbourne nineteen fifty two. And one of these old Canadians

537
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 1: that during you know, what we're called recreation. I don't

538
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 1: think they had a great deal of fun, but it

539
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 1: was called recreation. And they sat out in the in

540
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 1: the garden and you know, made small talk because of

541
00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 1: course they weren't allowed to talk about anything of substance

542
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 1: or you know, exchange any personal details about their lives.

543
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 1: They couldn't even say, Oh, my mother's coming to visit

544
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 1: me next weekend. They couldn't. They couldn't say anything. So

545
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 1: they talked about the chalks. Anyway, this woman was making

546
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 1: this old Canadian and I was doing some handiwork, making

547
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 1: this kind of device out of a sort of a

548
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 1: kind of Macrome technique. And one of the young sisters

549
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 1: asked what it was, and it turns out that it

550
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 1: was this thing called they called the discipline, and it

551
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 1: was for penance. You were meant to whip yourself with it.

552
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, but it was something that had gone out

553
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 1: of vogue by the time Murray came, so that there

554
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 1: were sort of yeah, I think by the time Maray

555
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 1: joined that in nineteen sixty six, some of the strictest,

556
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 1: most sort of medieval things had sort of maybe gone

557
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 1: by the wayside a little bit, you know, and you

558
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 1: were equipment maybe in the automaking kitchen. So life wasn't

559
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 1: sort of as full on as it might have been

560
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 1: for some of the women I interviewed who entered in

561
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 1: the in the late fifties.

562
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 3: So what was the discipline, what was it made of,

563
00:29:57,920 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 3: and what did.

564
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 1: It were made of some kind of and knitted together

565
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 1: and you were supposed to whip yourself over the shoulders

566
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 1: with it. And Marie was actually very disappointed because she

567
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 1: was never offered the discipline because it had gone out

568
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 1: of vogue. So it was for the mortification of the flesh,

569
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 1: as it was the phrase that they used. But her

570
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 1: novice mistress was within the bounds of what the comment allowed.

571
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 1: Quite a progressive woman, very very intelligent woman, and she

572
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 1: wasn't a big fan of it. I don't think.

573
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 2: We'll leave part one of the story of Mari Grunky there.

574
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 2: Come back on Thursday to hear part two to find

575
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 2: out what happened when the convent faced an incredible transformation

576
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 2: and the surprise ending to Mary's remarkable story. Thanks for listening.

577
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 2: This has Been in Black and White, a podcast about

578
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 2: some of Australia's forgotten characters, written and hosted by me

579
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 2: Jen Kelly, edited by Phoebe Zukowski, and produced by John

580
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 2: ty Burton. You can find and all the stories and

581
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 2: photos associated with our episodes at Heraldsun dot com dot

582
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 2: au slash ibaw. If you've enjoyed this podcast, we'd love

583
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 2: you to leave a five star rating on Apple Podcasts.

584
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 2: Even better, leave a review. It's one simple way you

585
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 2: can help us get the word out to more listeners.

586
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 2: Any comments or questions please email me at in black

587
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 2: and white at Heraldsun dot com dot au. Any clarifications

588
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 2: or updates will appear in the show notes for each episode,

589
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 2: and to get notified when each new episode comes out,

590
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 2: make sure you subscribe to the podcast feed