1 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:06,930 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. 2 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:11,899 Sean Aylmer: Governments across the country have committed a record $225 billion 3 00:00:12,250 --> 00:00:15,770 Sean Aylmer: in infrastructure investments over the next couple of years. On 4 00:00:15,770 --> 00:00:18,280 Sean Aylmer: top of that, more projects are being planned and delivered 5 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:21,030 Sean Aylmer: by the private sector. But a report out this week by 6 00:00:21,030 --> 00:00:25,900 Sean Aylmer: Infrastructure Australia says, "Infrastructure decision making falls short of consistent 7 00:00:26,150 --> 00:00:29,270 Sean Aylmer: best practice." The report called for major reform of the 8 00:00:29,270 --> 00:00:32,070 Sean Aylmer: sector to help address challenges like the risk of insolvency, 9 00:00:32,340 --> 00:00:36,270 Sean Aylmer: cost overruns, and project delays. Peter Colacino is the Chief 10 00:00:36,380 --> 00:00:39,790 Sean Aylmer: of Policy and Research at Infrastructure Australia and my guest 11 00:00:39,790 --> 00:00:41,760 Sean Aylmer: this morning. Peter, welcome back to Fear and Greed. 12 00:00:42,150 --> 00:00:43,640 Peter Colacino: Thank you so much for having me back on. 13 00:00:44,490 --> 00:00:48,479 Sean Aylmer: Where to start on infrastructure? It is so big. Let's 14 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:54,139 Sean Aylmer: start with who's responsible for infrastructure and has Australia got 15 00:00:54,140 --> 00:00:55,040 Sean Aylmer: the mix right. 16 00:00:55,940 --> 00:00:58,780 Peter Colacino: Yeah. Look, that's a fantastic way to start because it 17 00:00:58,780 --> 00:01:01,560 Peter Colacino: is a point of real confusion for many people. And 18 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:05,509 Peter Colacino: frankly, it's because it's confusing. So all three levels of 19 00:01:05,510 --> 00:01:10,230 Peter Colacino: government in Australia have some level of responsibility for infrastructure, 20 00:01:10,250 --> 00:01:13,480 Peter Colacino: both in terms of regulation and delivery. So the federal 21 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:18,540 Peter Colacino: government, big focus on telecommunications. Obviously, very large project under 22 00:01:18,540 --> 00:01:22,190 Peter Colacino: ownership and now operating network through the NBN, but they all 23 00:01:22,190 --> 00:01:27,319 Peter Colacino: also have responsibility for interstate freight network, particularly international airports, 24 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:31,350 Peter Colacino: but airport regulation broadly. States and territories generally are in 25 00:01:31,750 --> 00:01:35,510 Peter Colacino: the main thrust of things though across tens of thousands 26 00:01:35,510 --> 00:01:40,140 Peter Colacino: of kilometers of road and rail networks, ports. They have 27 00:01:40,140 --> 00:01:43,899 Peter Colacino: a direct role in regulating some air routes, provide public 28 00:01:43,900 --> 00:01:47,900 Peter Colacino: transport. So really, the heavy lifters in many ways of 29 00:01:47,900 --> 00:01:51,760 Peter Colacino: big assets. But then, local government owns everything from your 30 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:57,809 Peter Colacino: local road to drainage, parks, community facilities. So with the 31 00:01:57,810 --> 00:02:03,400 Peter Colacino: lowest taxing potential, local government is generally regarded as the 32 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:06,059 Peter Colacino: owner of the most disparate group of assets and carries 33 00:02:06,060 --> 00:02:09,550 Peter Colacino: a really large burden. So, those local governments are often 34 00:02:09,550 --> 00:02:12,419 Peter Colacino: doing more with less. And we really see a big 35 00:02:12,419 --> 00:02:16,160 Peter Colacino: part of our role at Infrastructure Australia as supporting them 36 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:17,470 Peter Colacino: to adopt best practice reform. 37 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:20,630 Sean Aylmer: Okay. Yeah, I mean, I'm just going to use the example in 38 00:02:20,630 --> 00:02:25,440 Sean Aylmer: Queensland this week. There's a $1.8 billion infrastructure spend announced. It was 39 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:29,570 Sean Aylmer: announced by Scott Morrison, the Prime Minister. The Queensland government 40 00:02:29,570 --> 00:02:31,420 Sean Aylmer: was there. There was a bunch of state governments. They 41 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:34,080 Sean Aylmer: also had business I think putting in $70 million towards 42 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:37,160 Sean Aylmer: that $1.8 billion. It of course is in the lead in 43 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:38,870 Sean Aylmer: the next 10 years in the run up to the 44 00:02:38,870 --> 00:02:44,410 Sean Aylmer: Olympic Games in Brisbane. Is that typical I suppose, where 45 00:02:44,410 --> 00:02:49,000 Sean Aylmer: you have all three points of government, as well as business, 46 00:02:49,180 --> 00:02:51,210 Sean Aylmer: coming together to try and get stuff done? 47 00:02:51,910 --> 00:02:57,019 Peter Colacino: It's exceptionally rare is really something I'd underline. So that 48 00:02:57,130 --> 00:03:00,100 Peter Colacino: particular arrangement you're talking about, the South East Queensland City Deal, 49 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:03,059 Peter Colacino: came at the same time as an announcement of an 50 00:03:03,060 --> 00:03:07,250 Peter Colacino: injection of additional funding into the Perth City Deal, which 51 00:03:07,250 --> 00:03:10,710 Peter Colacino: brings a collection of these three levels of government agreements 52 00:03:10,710 --> 00:03:17,910 Peter Colacino: to around 10 around the country. So we've got Western Sydney, Hobart, Launceston, Darwin, Townsville. 53 00:03:17,910 --> 00:03:21,639 Peter Colacino: And it's delivered everything from focus on bridges to stadia 54 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:24,260 Peter Colacino: right the way through to, as you say, preparing South 55 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:28,230 Peter Colacino: East Queensland for the Olympics. And that model is a 56 00:03:28,230 --> 00:03:32,750 Peter Colacino: model that Infrastructure Australia supports strongly. It grew out of France. 57 00:03:32,750 --> 00:03:35,430 Peter Colacino: People often say it's an English model but perhaps like 58 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:39,520 Peter Colacino: a lot of good English things pinched from over the channel 59 00:03:39,900 --> 00:03:43,320 Peter Colacino: and deployed here with great success. Because as you say, 60 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:45,240 Peter Colacino: it's a way to get everybody to the table. And 61 00:03:45,300 --> 00:03:48,870 Peter Colacino: because of that mixed ownership of infrastructure, it really is 62 00:03:48,870 --> 00:03:52,900 Peter Colacino: critical to have all three levels of government at the 63 00:03:52,900 --> 00:03:56,020 Peter Colacino: table when you're talking about these big assets and integrating 64 00:03:56,020 --> 00:03:59,380 Peter Colacino: them into the community, which is often called Placemaking. 65 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:05,730 Sean Aylmer: Placemaking, righto. Let's get into the report and what you've found. 66 00:04:06,810 --> 00:04:09,100 Sean Aylmer: One of the big long term challenges in the sector always 67 00:04:09,100 --> 00:04:12,960 Sean Aylmer: seems to be cost overruns. And we've seen that in 68 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:17,270 Sean Aylmer: the last few weeks, the Victorian group, Probuild, its infrastructure 69 00:04:17,370 --> 00:04:19,930 Sean Aylmer: area seems to have caused it all sorts of problems 70 00:04:19,930 --> 00:04:23,610 Sean Aylmer: and you'd have to call in administrators. How do you 71 00:04:23,610 --> 00:04:26,109 Sean Aylmer: stock cost overrun? I mean, it must be so difficult 72 00:04:26,110 --> 00:04:29,330 Sean Aylmer: to actually cost an infrastructure project up front because it 73 00:04:29,330 --> 00:04:29,960 Sean Aylmer: is so big. 74 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:34,830 Peter Colacino: Well, so we undertook a report called the National Infrastructure 75 00:04:34,870 --> 00:04:37,640 Peter Colacino: Risk Study about 12 months ago now as part of 76 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:42,220 Peter Colacino: a piece of work called Market Capacity that COAG (Council of Australian Governments), and 77 00:04:42,220 --> 00:04:46,210 Peter Colacino: now national cabinet, asked us to undertake for all governments. 78 00:04:46,650 --> 00:04:52,450 Peter Colacino: And what we identified as part of that research is globally, 75% 79 00:04:52,450 --> 00:04:54,530 Peter Colacino: of transport projects run over budget. 80 00:04:55,300 --> 00:04:55,410 Sean Aylmer: Wow. 81 00:04:55,410 --> 00:04:57,560 Peter Colacino: And if we were to make sure that every transport 82 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:01,330 Peter Colacino: project was delivered within budget, we would need a contingency 83 00:05:01,330 --> 00:05:05,339 Peter Colacino: or reserve of funds a 100% larger than the actual 84 00:05:05,339 --> 00:05:06,710 Peter Colacino: cost of delivering the project. 85 00:05:07,110 --> 00:05:07,310 Sean Aylmer: Right. 86 00:05:07,690 --> 00:05:11,100 Peter Colacino: So with a record investment pipeline, as you mentioned earlier, 87 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:15,470 Peter Colacino: $52 billion will be spent next year on really large 88 00:05:15,470 --> 00:05:21,290 Peter Colacino: projects across infrastructure. 80% of that spending is in transport. So, 89 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:24,960 Peter Colacino: $40 billion. We would need to, as the country, keep 90 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:28,150 Peter Colacino: $40 billion in reserve to make sure we can cover 91 00:05:28,150 --> 00:05:31,850 Peter Colacino: cost overruns. And we're in a really interesting environment where 92 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:36,660 Peter Colacino: we've got collapses of contractors, as you mentioned, Probuild, but also, 93 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:42,109 Peter Colacino: Condev and Pindan who are WA based. Knock-ons through the 94 00:05:42,130 --> 00:05:46,750 Peter Colacino: sector across school construction, hospitals, these are the types of 95 00:05:46,750 --> 00:05:51,160 Peter Colacino: assets or projects that those companies were involved with. And 96 00:05:51,220 --> 00:05:55,990 Peter Colacino: as a result of their collapse, you see pressure on the 97 00:05:55,990 --> 00:06:00,130 Peter Colacino: market for competition, you see difficulty with attracting skills, you 98 00:06:00,370 --> 00:06:04,370 Peter Colacino: see financial risk increasing for companies. And that's at a 99 00:06:04,370 --> 00:06:09,060 Peter Colacino: time where we've got continuing impacts from pandemic supply chain pressures. 100 00:06:09,700 --> 00:06:14,500 Peter Colacino: We've now got obviously conflict in the Ukraine with the 101 00:06:14,500 --> 00:06:17,610 Peter Colacino: pressure that it puts particularly around petroleum products, but a 102 00:06:17,610 --> 00:06:21,680 Peter Colacino: number of other areas that are required. For instance, silicon chip production. 103 00:06:22,180 --> 00:06:26,500 Peter Colacino: And all of those pressures trickle through the sector compounding 104 00:06:26,570 --> 00:06:30,029 Peter Colacino: those already existing risks that see three in every four 105 00:06:30,029 --> 00:06:31,560 Peter Colacino: transport projects run over budget. 106 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:36,880 Sean Aylmer: Just why? I mean, that's an incredible statistic. That you 107 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:39,779 Sean Aylmer: basically have twice as much money in the bank as 108 00:06:39,779 --> 00:06:43,610 Sean Aylmer: you say upfront. Is it just inevitable? Surely, there must 109 00:06:43,610 --> 00:06:45,450 Sean Aylmer: be some way of getting better at it. 110 00:06:45,690 --> 00:06:49,410 Peter Colacino: Well, it's definitely not inevitable. And that's exactly what our 111 00:06:49,410 --> 00:06:55,279 Peter Colacino: report released this week, Delivering Outcomes, suggests. What we see 112 00:06:55,420 --> 00:06:58,300 Peter Colacino: in Australia and indeed what we see in some of 113 00:06:58,300 --> 00:07:02,270 Peter Colacino: our peers as countries, so we think about the UK, Canada, 114 00:07:02,270 --> 00:07:07,020 Peter Colacino: and New Zealand particularly in an infrastructure sense, some really 115 00:07:07,020 --> 00:07:11,420 Peter Colacino: great projects and some projects that are really great at 116 00:07:11,420 --> 00:07:15,000 Peter Colacino: different areas of their life cycle, but might fall away in 117 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:18,530 Peter Colacino: later stages or in fact might be a project that 118 00:07:18,530 --> 00:07:21,500 Peter Colacino: had to get back on track. So we see, for instance, 119 00:07:21,500 --> 00:07:24,550 Peter Colacino: in the level crossing removal program in Melbourne, really great 120 00:07:24,550 --> 00:07:28,000 Peter Colacino: focus on collaborative contracts. We see in Snowy 2.0, a 121 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:33,870 Peter Colacino: federal government project, really good use of documents for reliance. So, 122 00:07:34,210 --> 00:07:40,260 Peter Colacino: really technical geo-tech work as it's called looking into how 123 00:07:40,260 --> 00:07:44,150 Peter Colacino: difficult tunnelling will be for Snowy Hydro 2.0 and the 124 00:07:44,150 --> 00:07:47,400 Peter Colacino: government has really done a great job there. We see 125 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:50,680 Peter Colacino: inland rail looking at engaging tier two contractors and other 126 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:54,600 Peter Colacino: federal government project. Or Sydney Metro, not in the most 127 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:57,280 Peter Colacino: exciting of areas, but its legal contract work has really 128 00:07:57,280 --> 00:07:58,500 Peter Colacino: been exceptional. 129 00:07:58,510 --> 00:08:00,650 Sean Aylmer: Oh. Peter, please, that's exciting. 130 00:08:03,500 --> 00:08:05,900 Peter Colacino: But on Metro, as an example, we heard this week 131 00:08:05,900 --> 00:08:09,340 Peter Colacino: that there's a significant cost overrun. So, over $2 billion 132 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:13,560 Peter Colacino: on the Southwest Metro. So a project that's done really 133 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:17,520 Peter Colacino: well in many areas, but facing pressures in others. And 134 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:21,070 Peter Colacino: that's the story of the sector. This patch work of performance. 135 00:08:21,690 --> 00:08:26,300 Peter Colacino: And our Delivering Outcomes report really looked globally, and domestically 136 00:08:26,300 --> 00:08:29,280 Peter Colacino: I have to say, at project leaders and looked in 137 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:34,140 Peter Colacino: parallel industries or in fact, really diverse counterculture industries. So, 138 00:08:34,140 --> 00:08:37,660 Peter Colacino: we engage with the US Defense force and Flight Centre 139 00:08:37,660 --> 00:08:41,640 Peter Colacino: and automotive manufacturers. And we came up with seven principles 140 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:45,970 Peter Colacino: that really can define better performance. So, thinking about people 141 00:08:45,970 --> 00:08:50,559 Peter Colacino: and outcome based delivery. So focusing, as we started this conversation, 142 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:53,979 Peter Colacino: on the idea that infrastructure is designed to deliver services 143 00:08:53,980 --> 00:08:58,500 Peter Colacino: for people and for places rather than just concrete and steel. 144 00:08:59,010 --> 00:09:02,420 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. I think that's really critical. Everything you're talking about 145 00:09:02,420 --> 00:09:06,160 Sean Aylmer: actually does affect we as a community, how we operate, 146 00:09:07,140 --> 00:09:09,320 Sean Aylmer: the time it takes us to get to work, our 147 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:13,240 Sean Aylmer: ability to enjoy our leisure time. All that. Infrastructure is 148 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:17,040 Sean Aylmer: often thought of in the abstract, but it's actually all 149 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:18,420 Sean Aylmer: of our everyday lives. 150 00:09:19,010 --> 00:09:21,470 Peter Colacino: Well, every time you turn on the tap or switch 151 00:09:21,540 --> 00:09:25,380 Peter Colacino: on a powerpoint, or for that matter, glance at your 152 00:09:25,380 --> 00:09:30,360 Peter Colacino: mobile phone, of course, there's billions of dollars of infrastructure 153 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:34,510 Peter Colacino: investment that's allowing that to occur. And we do have 154 00:09:34,510 --> 00:09:40,360 Peter Colacino: difficulties in providing high quality services in Australia. But generally, 155 00:09:40,410 --> 00:09:44,890 Peter Colacino: our infrastructure networks are globally competitive. We have the largest 156 00:09:44,890 --> 00:09:48,939 Peter Colacino: electricity network in the world, the largest interconnected network. We 157 00:09:48,940 --> 00:09:53,550 Peter Colacino: have reliable water on the driest inhabitable continent. We have 158 00:09:53,650 --> 00:09:57,700 Peter Colacino: strong investment across our roads and public transport networks in 159 00:09:57,700 --> 00:10:00,770 Peter Colacino: our larger cities. But of course, we also have communities 160 00:10:00,770 --> 00:10:04,949 Peter Colacino: where we have challenges with access to housing. And our report, 161 00:10:04,950 --> 00:10:09,030 Peter Colacino: Regional Strengths and Infrastructure Gaps, last week called out access 162 00:10:09,030 --> 00:10:13,270 Peter Colacino: to housing as the biggest challenge for Australia's regions. But 163 00:10:13,300 --> 00:10:19,780 Peter Colacino: we also saw telecommunications struggling in many regions, issues around education, 164 00:10:19,780 --> 00:10:21,250 Peter Colacino: and a range of other areas. 165 00:10:21,530 --> 00:10:23,250 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Peter. We'll be back in a minute. 166 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:31,579 Sean Aylmer: My guest this morning is Infrastructure Australia Chief of Policy 167 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:35,320 Sean Aylmer: and Research, Peter Colacino. Okay. So, let's just get into 168 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:38,980 Sean Aylmer: benchmarking. So, you talk about the need to benchmark. It just seems that 169 00:10:38,980 --> 00:10:42,770 Sean Aylmer: every infrastructure project is unique though. How do you benchmark? 170 00:10:43,270 --> 00:10:46,210 Peter Colacino: Well, that's the trap that many people fall into is 171 00:10:46,210 --> 00:10:50,829 Peter Colacino: this idea that either Australia's unique or their project's unique. 172 00:10:50,830 --> 00:10:54,450 Peter Colacino: In fact, the level of commonality is greater than the 173 00:10:54,450 --> 00:10:55,731 Peter Colacino: level of difference. So- 174 00:10:55,731 --> 00:10:56,181 Sean Aylmer: Right. 175 00:10:56,750 --> 00:11:00,250 Peter Colacino: We talk about this benchmarking approach within the idea of 176 00:11:00,370 --> 00:11:05,010 Peter Colacino: thinking of infrastructure as a system. So, a project or 177 00:11:05,010 --> 00:11:08,880 Peter Colacino: an asset doesn't stand alone. A section of road is 178 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:12,490 Peter Colacino: part of a broader road network or an electricity power 179 00:11:12,490 --> 00:11:16,569 Peter Colacino: generator is part of the broader electricity grid. But also, 180 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:20,660 Peter Colacino: the organisations that deliver infrastructure don't work by themselves. There 181 00:11:20,660 --> 00:11:24,130 Peter Colacino: are very few projects where a single organization is capable 182 00:11:24,130 --> 00:11:28,630 Peter Colacino: of delivering it in total. So, we really do need 183 00:11:28,630 --> 00:11:31,540 Peter Colacino: to think of the sector as a system. And benchmarking 184 00:11:31,900 --> 00:11:36,240 Peter Colacino: comes into play in that context where we're trying to 185 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:40,010 Peter Colacino: see that value for money is delivered on a project 186 00:11:40,010 --> 00:11:43,600 Peter Colacino: when contrast to the section of road around the corner 187 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,679 Peter Colacino: or a rail line in another state or similar. So 188 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:50,840 Peter Colacino: there's a growing approach, which in Australia, we've really been 189 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:54,750 Peter Colacino: leaders of through the resources sector which is... And this 190 00:11:54,750 --> 00:11:56,579 Peter Colacino: is a bit of technical jargon, but it's called a 191 00:11:56,580 --> 00:11:59,240 Peter Colacino: should-cost model. And as the name suggests, it gives you 192 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:02,780 Peter Colacino: a sense of what the project should cost. If you are, 193 00:12:02,820 --> 00:12:06,520 Peter Colacino: for instance, laying railway track on flat ground, it will 194 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:09,300 Peter Colacino: give you the context for that cost, and then you 195 00:12:09,330 --> 00:12:13,130 Peter Colacino: have an understanding of what your target should be in 196 00:12:13,130 --> 00:12:17,380 Peter Colacino: similar conditions on a similar project. So, taking that approach 197 00:12:17,380 --> 00:12:20,730 Peter Colacino: from resources and applying it in infrastructure is a real priority. 198 00:12:21,740 --> 00:12:23,989 Sean Aylmer: Okay. You also talk about things shifting from the current 199 00:12:24,370 --> 00:12:30,270 Sean Aylmer: competitive contracting models to longer-term collaborative models, integrating supply chains, 200 00:12:30,270 --> 00:12:34,610 Sean Aylmer: supporting the financial sustainability of the infrastructure industry by adopting principles 201 00:12:34,610 --> 00:12:39,170 Sean Aylmer: of a fair return. In a market economy where everyone is 202 00:12:39,170 --> 00:12:42,250 Sean Aylmer: trying to out-compete and outbid and governments are trying to 203 00:12:42,250 --> 00:12:44,950 Sean Aylmer: keep costs down, how does that all work? How can 204 00:12:44,950 --> 00:12:48,809 Sean Aylmer: you be more collaborative, actually be happy with a fair 205 00:12:48,809 --> 00:12:53,160 Sean Aylmer: return rather than getting some excess return? Is that feasible? 206 00:12:53,970 --> 00:12:56,770 Peter Colacino: It absolutely is feasible. And we've seen these sorts of 207 00:12:56,770 --> 00:13:00,679 Peter Colacino: approaches adopted in other sectors is a really important starting point. 208 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:04,010 Peter Colacino: But what it requires is an open book approach. It 209 00:13:04,010 --> 00:13:09,960 Peter Colacino: requires contractors to be transparent with governments, with clients about 210 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:15,400 Peter Colacino: their financial performance and about risks. And it requires governments 211 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:20,360 Peter Colacino: to be mature in recognising that contractors losing money, although 212 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:22,939 Peter Colacino: it might deliver the lowest costs on a single project, 213 00:13:23,390 --> 00:13:27,260 Peter Colacino: ultimately reduces competition in the industry and builds cost into 214 00:13:27,260 --> 00:13:31,890 Peter Colacino: the next project. So in this notion of collaboration, we 215 00:13:31,890 --> 00:13:35,550 Peter Colacino: really point to the Project 13 principles which have been 216 00:13:35,550 --> 00:13:40,190 Peter Colacino: pioneered in the UK as being best practice. And the 217 00:13:40,190 --> 00:13:43,090 Peter Colacino: types of things that it talks about are making sure 218 00:13:43,090 --> 00:13:47,210 Peter Colacino: that a project delivery team is integrated with representatives of 219 00:13:47,210 --> 00:13:51,210 Peter Colacino: the client, the designer, the builder all sitting together in 220 00:13:51,210 --> 00:13:55,829 Peter Colacino: a team, working to deliver a clear set of outcomes. 221 00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:00,420 Peter Colacino: It requires that engagement from client and contractor to be early. 222 00:14:00,770 --> 00:14:04,360 Peter Colacino: Before an environmental approval occurs, quite useful to have the 223 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:09,100 Peter Colacino: project planned and designed. But really importantly, it requires that 224 00:14:09,100 --> 00:14:13,849 Peter Colacino: change in relationships as you've mentioned, because the infrastructure sector 225 00:14:14,390 --> 00:14:19,040 Peter Colacino: is highly competitive which is good. We want to maintain competition. 226 00:14:19,570 --> 00:14:26,840 Peter Colacino: But that turns into a combative environment where litigation, variation 227 00:14:27,460 --> 00:14:30,540 Peter Colacino: and ultimately, the court system and the processes built into 228 00:14:30,540 --> 00:14:34,750 Peter Colacino: that drives the industry. And all of that expense and 229 00:14:34,750 --> 00:14:38,640 Peter Colacino: all of that focus takes away from delivering good projects for 230 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:42,840 Peter Colacino: people and places. So, we need to see a mindset shift 231 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:45,500 Peter Colacino: on both sides of the table. If it only occurs 232 00:14:45,500 --> 00:14:48,630 Peter Colacino: on one, then it won't lead to lasting reform where 233 00:14:48,630 --> 00:14:51,930 Peter Colacino: we can drive this progress towards collaboration. 234 00:14:51,930 --> 00:14:56,050 Sean Aylmer: Peter, we have only scratched the surface in a very very 235 00:14:56,630 --> 00:14:59,010 Sean Aylmer: large sector, but we have run out of time unfortunately. 236 00:14:59,010 --> 00:15:00,560 Sean Aylmer: Thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 237 00:15:01,310 --> 00:15:02,220 Peter Colacino: Thank you so much. 238 00:15:02,820 --> 00:15:05,900 Sean Aylmer: That was Infrastructure Australia Chief of Policy and Research, Peter 239 00:15:05,900 --> 00:15:09,370 Sean Aylmer: Colacino. This is a Fear and Greed Daily Interview. Join us every 240 00:15:09,370 --> 00:15:12,320 Sean Aylmer: morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed, Australia's 241 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:15,630 Sean Aylmer: most popular business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.