1 00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:04,040 Speaker 1: Three years ago I sat down with renowned journalist Claire Harvey, 2 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:07,040 Speaker 1: who interviewed me following public criticism by the then New 3 00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:10,000 Speaker 1: South Wales Police Commissioner Mick Fuller of the way I 4 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 1: handled the investigations. The things that I said in that 5 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:16,319 Speaker 1: interview are still relevant as they were three years ago. 6 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: I invite you to have a listen to that interview. 7 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:22,239 Speaker 1: I stand by everything I said in that interview. Unfortunately, 8 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: it has now been over five and a half years 9 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 1: since I was removed from the investigation, and I think 10 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:29,159 Speaker 1: I'm as confused as a public as to what is 11 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 1: going on. I sincerely hope we find out what's happened 12 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: to weir. Leading an investigation in the disappearance of a 13 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:41,280 Speaker 1: three year old child comes with responsibilities and accountabilities. If 14 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:44,919 Speaker 1: mistakes were made, those responsible need to be held to account. 15 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 1: That comes with the job. Here now is the interview 16 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:49,519 Speaker 1: I did with Claire Harvey. 17 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 2: We're recording this on Thursday, the eighteenth of November. I'm 18 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 2: Claire Harvey, a journalist, and I am speaking with Gary Jublin. 19 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 2: This is a special episode in the Eyecatch Killers podcast 20 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 2: feed because there's been some news this week about the 21 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 2: William Tyrel matter. Gary William Tyrell was a three year 22 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:10,399 Speaker 2: old boy who disappeared seven years ago from a property 23 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 2: on the New South Wales Mid North coast. Tell me 24 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:15,959 Speaker 2: how you got involved in this case. 25 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:19,120 Speaker 1: At the time of his disappearance, I was working at 26 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: homicide with the New South Wales Police. I was a 27 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:26,960 Speaker 1: detective Chief inspector. I took the investigation over five months 28 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:31,039 Speaker 1: after he disappeared. It was in September twenty fourteen. It 29 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 1: was run for five months and then the person that 30 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 1: was running that was retiring and I took over the 31 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:39,480 Speaker 1: investigation five months after he disappeared. I worked on it 32 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 1: for four years, led the investigation for four years. My 33 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:44,960 Speaker 1: role was a supervisor, which as an inspector you sit 34 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 1: over a team of investigators and in that role you're 35 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 1: responsible for the direction of the investigation and operational decisions, 36 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 1: strategies and whatnot. After around four years or just sure 37 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 1: the four years, I was removed from the investigator And 38 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 1: there's no hiding the fact that it was in somewhat 39 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 1: controversial circumstances. Allegations were made against me and that resulted 40 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:13,359 Speaker 1: in me being charged with recording conversations with a suspect 41 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:17,239 Speaker 1: in the William tyrrel matter on my telephone. It was 42 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 1: a local court matter, relatively minor matter, but powers it 43 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 1: be removed me from the investigation. I since retired from 44 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 1: the police. I decided that the organization was not the 45 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 1: right fit for me anymore. I've been in the police 46 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 1: for thirty four years, so it wasn't an easy decision, 47 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 1: but I left the police at the time of running 48 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 1: the investigation. At the time of leaving the investigation, I 49 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:45,640 Speaker 1: should say I wasn't afforded the opportunity to speak to 50 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 1: anyone still on the investigation or provide a handover, which 51 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 1: I always thought that was not the best way of 52 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 1: transition one investigation to someone else taking it over. At 53 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: your trial. 54 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 2: In that local court matter, one of the people who 55 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 2: gave evidence was the foster mother of William, who told 56 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 2: the court that she had she had greatly respected you 57 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 2: as a detective and that she was really afraid that 58 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:21,080 Speaker 2: with a dogged detective like you off the case, that 59 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:23,959 Speaker 2: it would ultimately be sent on unsolved homicide and that 60 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 2: would be the end of the investigation into William. She 61 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 2: made it clear that she wanted this murder investigation to 62 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 2: keep going. Is that right? 63 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's pretty much right in summary, and I 64 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: feel and really the facus should always be on the victim, 65 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 1: victim's families and trying to resolve it. Unfortunately, it got 66 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 1: caught up in the internal conflict that was happening in 67 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 1: with the new South Isles Police, with the issues that 68 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 1: were happening with me, and she had concerns that the 69 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: matter would be referred to unsolved unsolved homicide. So that's 70 00:03:56,440 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 1: she chose to actually give evidence at my hearing was 71 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 1: something that she decided that there was some information she 72 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 1: provided that would support my position on what happened in 73 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: the allegations against me. It was her choosing and I 74 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 1: appreciate it obviously, and after that that was my involvement 75 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: in the investigation. 76 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 2: She has now been publicly named this week as the 77 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 2: only person of interest in the investigation as it's been 78 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 2: run by the new team, and the Police Commissioner Mick 79 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:33,719 Speaker 2: Fuller and the Police Minister David Elliott have been out 80 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 2: in public making some pretty strong comments about the history 81 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:44,799 Speaker 2: of this investigation. How does it all make you feel 82 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 2: now about the way it all unfolded? 83 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 1: Quite frankly, when I heard what the Commissioner was saying 84 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: and breaking it down. He was announcing what was considered 85 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 1: to be a breakthrough in the investigation, which I see 86 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: as a positive, positive line if I'm just looking at 87 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: it from the outside, and I should say that that's 88 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:09,040 Speaker 1: what I'm doing. I've been off the investigation for two 89 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: years ten months. Once I left the investigation, I didn't 90 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 1: say anything negative about the investigation, and I honestly believe 91 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:19,239 Speaker 1: the police that are heading up the investigation or working 92 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: on the investigation want to solve it as much as 93 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:23,600 Speaker 1: I did in the team I was working with at 94 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 1: the time. But strangely, and yeah, there was to me, 95 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:33,679 Speaker 1: it seemed very unnecessary. Commissioner Fuller, in this public interview 96 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 1: on two GB decided to talk about the new developments 97 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:42,159 Speaker 1: in the case and also made the comment that the 98 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:46,479 Speaker 1: current team running the investigation inherited a brief that was 99 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: described as shambles, and also made a comment later on 100 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:56,719 Speaker 1: that the detectives were following suspects that were clearly not involved, 101 00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: wasting time, I think was the wording of it. Wasn't 102 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:02,720 Speaker 1: aware of this, Like I've been keeping my eye on 103 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: anything that develops in the wiim tyrial matter. But then 104 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 1: I got inundated with text messages saying the U Okay, 105 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 1: how do you feel about this? And I didn't know 106 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:13,280 Speaker 1: where that was coming from. And then a source back 107 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 1: to the comments of the commission that were clearly directed 108 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 1: as an investigation that I was running, running it for 109 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 1: four years, I thought it was unnecessary. I don't think 110 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:26,479 Speaker 1: it's a very smart play. I think airing something like 111 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:29,160 Speaker 1: that in an investigation is dangerous because it makes it 112 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 1: harder to convict people because it will give the defense 113 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 1: a foot in the door to question the integrity of 114 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 1: the evidence or the manner in which the investigation was run. 115 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:44,040 Speaker 1: But probably more importantly, and I'm making the life outside 116 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 1: the outside the police. But you know, basically, I've been 117 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: a career detective and have a commissioner of police say 118 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,040 Speaker 1: that about an investigation that you ran. I found that 119 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:58,119 Speaker 1: highly offensive. I must admit I was in two minds 120 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:01,279 Speaker 1: where I wanted to even respond to it, and my 121 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 1: initial thought I was angry, and then Carma Garry stops 122 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 1: and thinks, okay, maybe just just let it slide through. 123 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 1: But the amount of people that said I should be 124 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 1: aggreeved by the comments that were made made me feel 125 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 1: that I couldn't just sit on my hands, and I 126 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 1: had to address it and a couple of points because 127 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:24,240 Speaker 1: it's simply well I say it's incorrect, and people might 128 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 1: dismiss that and say, well, yeah, that's your view. The 129 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 1: commissioner's view is something different. I like dealing with facts, 130 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: and I think that comes from being a detective as 131 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 1: long as I have been that you need to back 132 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 1: up opinions. Leading an investigation like William Tyrrel's and I 133 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 1: would call it the state's highest profile investigation, if not 134 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 1: one of the highest profile investigations in the country. Obviously 135 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: and quite appropriately, if you're running the investigation, you need 136 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 1: to report up what you're doing to your senior officers. 137 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 1: As an inspector, my senior officer is the Commander of Homicide, 138 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 1: who sits at the level of superintendent. We then now 139 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 1: also have a director, which is a chief superintendent, and 140 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 1: assistant commissioner sits above that in the State Crime Command. 141 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: Leading the investigation, I was responsible for submitting what's called 142 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 1: the progress report. Progress reports are as a name would suggest. 143 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 1: It's outlining the progress of an investigation and to be 144 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 1: submitted every four weeks. In that you have to outline 145 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 1: what you've achieved in that period of time, so that 146 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 1: four weeks identify what suspects that you've got. What are 147 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:35,199 Speaker 1: you doing, what are your strategies, what are your future directions? 148 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:38,319 Speaker 1: How many staff have you got? Basically the nitty gritty, 149 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 1: in minute detail of what's happening on the investigation. I 150 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 1: complete that. It then gets forwarded to up the chain 151 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 1: of command to the Commander of Homicide, then the director, 152 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 1: and then the Commander of State Crime, all of which 153 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 1: have to sign off on the document to acknowledge that 154 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:01,840 Speaker 1: they're satisfied with the direction of the investigation. Now, what 155 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 1: I find quite strange is a commissioner has come out 156 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:08,559 Speaker 1: and said that it was in a shambles. I submitted, 157 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 1: I believe it was forty four progress reports, not once 158 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 1: where I criticized about the direction or the strategies of 159 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:20,320 Speaker 1: the investigation. The only different opinion we had in regards 160 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 1: to the way I was running the investigation. I wanted 161 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 1: more staff, which I couldn't get, which I understand because 162 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 1: I was at management level. I understand that it's limited resources, 163 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: but I'll always ask for it, even with the expectation 164 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 1: that I might receive the staff. The other thing was 165 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 1: whether the investigation should be shut down. They're the only 166 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 1: and I won't even say disagreement, so just discussions. But 167 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:45,719 Speaker 1: for the four years I ran the investigation, there was 168 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 1: no criticism in the direction that I was running the investigation, 169 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 1: who I was targeting, how I was targeting the investigations, 170 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 1: targeting the suspects. I should say also with this particular investigation, 171 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 1: because it was such a high profile, I also had 172 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 1: to participate in regular reviews and reviews. You have a 173 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 1: panel of senior police sit down and listen to what's 174 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 1: happening and let's agree or disagree or point it in 175 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:14,679 Speaker 1: a different direction. So there were a number of reviews, 176 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 1: and because of the William Tyrrell the nature of it, 177 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 1: I also had to report up to a Deputy commission 178 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:25,080 Speaker 1: at one stage fortnightly. So to now, almost three years 179 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 1: after I've left the police, here the commissioners say the 180 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 1: investigation was in the shambles and the detectives were wasting 181 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 1: time following suspects that clearly weren't involved. I may not 182 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 1: have got to say something. And those the records I 183 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 1: talk about, this is not just an opinion based thing. 184 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 1: Those records I talk about are retained with the new 185 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 1: South Files Police. I also did an investigation plan that 186 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 1: was updated regularly. All these things outline the strategies and directions. 187 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 1: So to sit back and just accept that sort of criticism, 188 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:00,559 Speaker 1: I'm not prepared had to do it. 189 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 2: So why if it appears the way it is, are 190 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 2: they trying to throw you under the bus? 191 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 1: I can't. I can't answer that answer that question. I 192 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 1: can speculate is that what's happening. I think throwing under 193 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:21,560 Speaker 1: the bus is a good description that certainly people that 194 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 1: I have worked with in the past that are now 195 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:26,960 Speaker 1: out of the police have termed it exactly that. Why 196 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: are they throwing you under the bus? It worries me. 197 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 1: It worries me that a false narrative could be created, 198 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 1: that the investigation is not solved because the person that 199 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 1: got charge with a criminal offense relating to the investigation 200 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 1: has stuffed up the investigation. We also had the police 201 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:51,719 Speaker 1: minister suggests that maybe an inquiry is necessary on that, 202 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:55,560 Speaker 1: I say, bring that on. I have no problems with 203 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:58,559 Speaker 1: an inquiry in the manner in which I ran the investigation. 204 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:03,960 Speaker 1: LEADERSHI is about accepting responsibility. I accept my responsibility at 205 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 1: my level of a inspector running a homicide investigation. Let 206 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:12,960 Speaker 1: the people that sit above me accept the same responsibility 207 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:14,559 Speaker 1: the decisions they made. 208 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 2: What do you think that the police minister and the 209 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 2: police commissioner would expect you to do in response to 210 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 2: this kind of criticism. 211 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 1: I honestly think, because I've left the police, and I've 212 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 1: said it, and I've said it publicly, and I genuinely 213 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 1: mean this, I have no animosity towards it, towards the police, 214 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: and I've got on with my life. I'm trying to 215 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 1: forge your career in the media, doing the best I can, 216 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 1: and I've sort of moved past the police. Each day 217 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 1: a little bit more of the police evolves from me, 218 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 1: and I become more I'm looking at things not through 219 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:49,840 Speaker 1: a policeman set of eyes. But I've made a conscious 220 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 1: decision not to criticize criticize the police because I respect 221 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 1: the work that they do, and I haven't criticized the 222 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:59,320 Speaker 1: wim terial investigation. So I don't know if they think 223 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 1: I was just a week boy that oh, he'll take it. 224 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 1: But yeah, most people that know me, there's a limit 225 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 1: to how far I can be pushed. And I suppose, 226 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:12,960 Speaker 1: and this is deeply personal but to actually bring me 227 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:15,560 Speaker 1: out and talk about this, it's because it's hurt me. 228 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 1: I don't mind if people say they don't like me. 229 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:19,680 Speaker 1: They might have opinions on me, and you know, I 230 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,559 Speaker 1: don't like some people. Other people I do like. That's fine, 231 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 1: but they've taken it to another level, questioning my professionalism 232 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 1: as a career detective. I'd also like to make the 233 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 1: point that the commissioners was his whole tenure as a commissioner. 234 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 1: This investigation was running as well, so he was the boss. 235 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 1: He was the boss. So I don't know why, Claire. 236 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 1: I don't know why it's come out this way. The 237 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 1: fact that it's come out this way when there's supposedly 238 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 1: possibly I don't know because I'm watching from the sideline 239 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,959 Speaker 1: as everyone else, is a breakthrough in the investigation. But 240 00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:59,199 Speaker 1: you know, I've got to be honest. Everything is running 241 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 1: through my mind because I've never seen that done before. 242 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 1: I've never seen a commissioner, or any senior office for 243 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 1: that matter, criticize an investigation whilst an active investigation is 244 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 1: being run. So I'm had a loss why it occurred. 245 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:15,200 Speaker 1: And getting back to your question, what did they expect 246 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: me to do? I don't know, like, do they really 247 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 1: think I'm just going to sit back and take that 248 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 1: because I'm not. 249 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 2: I imagine when you walk into any homicide investigation, you know 250 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 2: you're encountering hundreds of people who are potentially persons of interest, 251 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 2: You're potentially suspects. You've said to me before that your 252 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 2: best witness is dead, and that's a very natural work. 253 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 1: That is the nature. 254 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 2: So take me back to the start of the William 255 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 2: Tyrrell investigation. When you took it over five months after 256 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 2: William had disappeared. What was the first thing, What was 257 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 2: your first priority and what did you do, particularly in 258 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 2: relation to William's family. 259 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 1: Well, the first priority, even prior to me starting on 260 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 1: it five months into the invesstigation, there was no investigation plan. Now, 261 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: for all homicide investigations have an investigation plan. How for 262 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 1: five months that managed to slip through with an investigation plan, 263 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 1: I'm gobsmack by. So the first thing I did was 264 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 1: sit down and do an investigation plan. An investigation plan 265 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 1: outlines all the steps and directions. It's like a it's 266 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 1: like a framework of the way that you can freeform it, 267 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 1: but it's like a framework of the way that you're 268 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 1: going to conduct this investigation. Okay, we're going to look 269 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 1: at people close to at the time William disappeared, and 270 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 1: you outline strategies for a complex investigation like William Tyrell. 271 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 1: I think it's a no brainer and it's something that 272 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 1: should have been done and it hadn't been done. So 273 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 1: that's the first thing I did when I took over 274 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 1: the investigation. I was introduced to the Foster family in 275 00:15:53,720 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 1: a briefing by hands Rup and sorry, he was detective 276 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 1: chief inspector that was running prior to myself, and it 277 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 1: was quite right that there was a handover done and 278 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 1: that he introduced me to the foster parents, so they 279 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 1: had a point of contact when we were what we're doing. 280 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 1: At that time, they were eliminated as suspects, So they. 281 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 2: Had already been eliminated as suspects by the previous investigation. 282 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so yeah, I inherited the investigation and they 283 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 1: had been eliminated. So I still going there. I think 284 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 1: this is a detective detective in you. I accept and 285 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 1: I respect what hands does his work. So you know, 286 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 1: if he's telling me they've been eliminated, that carry some weight. 287 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 1: But you look at it as anyone would if you 288 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: took over an investigation that that classic saying that fresh 289 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 1: set of eyes. I was keeping an eye on the 290 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 1: family to see, Okay, is there something that I'm missing, 291 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 1: something hands missing, or something that's just developed. I didn't 292 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 1: see any of that. There was another suspect at the 293 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: time that I took it over, and that was the 294 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 1: without naming names, that it was a high profile one. 295 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:07,920 Speaker 1: Search warrants had already been executed on his place before 296 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:11,679 Speaker 1: I even took over the investigation, so I had to 297 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 1: concentrate on that to start with and get things I 298 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 1: won't say sorted, but get things in order in the 299 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:22,879 Speaker 1: way that I thought the investigation had to progress. Because 300 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 1: it's a live animal homicide investigation, priorities change on a 301 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 1: daily basis, so you've got to be fluent in your thinking. 302 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:34,359 Speaker 1: But with the investigation plan concentrated on looking at the 303 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 1: person that was being targeted, that he was a priority suspect, 304 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:40,399 Speaker 1: and then the family. So the meeting with the family 305 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: was not It sounds to the layman you're meeting with 306 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:49,639 Speaker 1: someone whose child has been abducted. That's a fairly common 307 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:52,399 Speaker 1: thing for a homicide detective. You're meeting with the family 308 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:57,439 Speaker 1: of the victim. So they were very emotional. I remember that, 309 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: and there was a lot of tears during the first meet, 310 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 1: and I think they were concerned that Hands was leaving. 311 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:07,639 Speaker 1: They had got accustomed to Hands dealing with them. So 312 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:10,680 Speaker 1: Hands and I thought it's important that we show them 313 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 1: that there's continuity in Hands. Vouches for me and I 314 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 1: vouch for Hands, and we take it from there. 315 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:19,920 Speaker 2: And so you sat down for a cup of tea. 316 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 1: I'm not sure if we got to a cup of 317 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 1: tea situation, but I remember sitting sitting in their home. 318 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:31,360 Speaker 1: They are firing more questions at Hands because Hands had 319 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 1: the answers, and I just got a sense of who 320 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 1: they were and they got a sense of what I 321 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:40,400 Speaker 1: was about, and so that's how that's when I first 322 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 1: met them. 323 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I understand that there were members of the Strike 324 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:49,240 Speaker 2: Force who were keen for there to be another look 325 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:52,120 Speaker 2: at the Foster family. So what did you do then? 326 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 1: It just putting it in time frame, so we're talking 327 00:18:55,600 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 1: twenty fifteen, this is probably mid twenty sixteen. Always something 328 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:04,160 Speaker 1: to do, like we always had suspects, too many suspects, 329 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 1: so we're prioritizing that. But we would have regular briefings 330 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:11,359 Speaker 1: as a team. And when I talk, I'm talking a strikeforce. 331 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 1: So a strikeforce. Yeah, it's a combination of things. I'm 332 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:19,400 Speaker 1: listening to other people's opinions. We'd have a weekly briefing 333 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:24,440 Speaker 1: in difficult times, it might be daily briefings. It might 334 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 1: be briefing in the morning, briefing in the afternoon. One 335 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 1: of the briefings, a detective that I respect mentioned that 336 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:34,160 Speaker 1: there was a couple of things that had been troubling 337 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 1: her about the foster parents, and bearing in mind we 338 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:41,919 Speaker 1: hadn't solved it, so we're open minded to everything. She 339 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 1: outlined what the concerns were. I respected her. I'd work 340 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:50,159 Speaker 1: with her, I think, very early in her career, and 341 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 1: so I listened to what she proposed. And so I'm 342 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 1: not sure if it was just her or other members. 343 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 1: It was a sort of people were coming in and 344 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:06,159 Speaker 1: going out of the strikeforce all the time. But I decided, Okay, 345 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 1: we're going to target them. It's not something I wanted 346 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:11,359 Speaker 1: to do. I admit I didn't want to do it. 347 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:15,919 Speaker 1: I saw them as the victim's family, the foster family, 348 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:18,480 Speaker 1: and the biological family, and it's never going to be pretty. 349 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 1: But I took it upon myself to do the interview 350 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:28,680 Speaker 1: with the officer that identified areas that she believed needed 351 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:31,159 Speaker 1: to be addressed. And this is when I talk this 352 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:34,680 Speaker 1: and I think I need to clarify that it's things 353 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 1: that may need to be clarified. It's not necessarily evident. 354 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:39,920 Speaker 1: It's not like we saw you with blood on your hands. 355 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:43,119 Speaker 1: It's little things that a version of events. While you 356 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 1: said this, what did you mean? They're that type of thing? 357 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:49,640 Speaker 1: She prepared the interview plans and then we sat down 358 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:52,120 Speaker 1: and she brought me up to speed on it and 359 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:55,479 Speaker 1: the way I decided to do the do this, and 360 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:58,200 Speaker 1: I think it's important with the narrative that's going now. 361 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:01,119 Speaker 1: And this is not something I would normally talk about 362 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 1: in an active investigation, but I think it needs to 363 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 1: be said that I invited them into police headquarters as 364 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 1: I would probably a couple of a couple of times 365 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 1: a year. They would come in and meet the strike force, 366 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 1: because that's another thing I do, the keep people motivated, 367 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 1: let them meet the victim's family so they understand what 368 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 1: we're working towards, especially on the difficult homicides. That's very important, 369 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:29,440 Speaker 1: and I would have briefings where the family would come 370 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 1: in and there'd be members of the Strikeforce crime and 371 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 1: the family. But after the family left, I had a 372 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:38,880 Speaker 1: highly motivated group of people that wanted to solve what 373 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:43,879 Speaker 1: was going on. So on this particular day, I invited 374 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 1: them to come and see me. There's something i'd need 375 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:48,200 Speaker 1: to speak to you about. And this is not verbatim, 376 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 1: but that went along these lines. They came to police 377 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 1: headquarters and they shook hands when we met, and I said, 378 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 1: you're not going to like me today, and my demeanor changed, 379 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: became very professional and I became very homicide detective ish. 380 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 1: I suppose as the way of saying it. I said, 381 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: you're not going to like me. I don't want your 382 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:14,359 Speaker 1: talking to each other. We're going to Paramatta Police station. 383 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:16,719 Speaker 1: I'm going to interview you first, and then I'm going 384 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:18,679 Speaker 1: to interview you second. You're not going to get an 385 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 1: opportunity to talk between the interviews, and at the end 386 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:24,720 Speaker 1: of the day we'll see where the cards lie. But 387 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 1: I'm sure you're not going to like me with that. 388 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 1: We take them over to Paramatta Police station. 389 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 2: So you ambushed them. 390 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:33,640 Speaker 1: It was I think the ambush is a fair way 391 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 1: of describing it, and yeah, it's smart policing. Also, there's 392 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 1: nothing wrong there. You don't put you don't give suspects 393 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: questions on notice, you drop it on them. So they 394 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 1: would have had no idea that's how their day was 395 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 1: going to play out. But they came over to the 396 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 1: police station. I interviewed I think the foster mother first. 397 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 1: I can't be sure, but it doesn't really matter. With 398 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:01,200 Speaker 1: the detective that had area that want them to be concerned. 399 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 1: We did an electronic interview with them, sit down Q 400 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:09,399 Speaker 1: and as answer the questions, finish with the first parent, 401 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 1: and then without letting the other one see or speak 402 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 1: to the person, we bought the other one in and 403 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:18,439 Speaker 1: did the second second interview straight away. After that, we 404 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,359 Speaker 1: stayed with the We stayed with them both so they 405 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 1: had no opportunity to talk. And then I don't want 406 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 1: to go into a lot of details, but we had 407 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 1: a COVET operation in place, and so we'll be able 408 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 1: to monitor conversations after their first available opportunity. 409 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:35,640 Speaker 2: So what they said to each other when they got 410 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:36,480 Speaker 2: back together. 411 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 1: What they said to each other in what they considered 412 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 1: a safe environment, and it was as to be expected, 413 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 1: they said disparaging things about me and part and parcel. 414 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 1: A lot of people might say they're right, that only 415 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:54,359 Speaker 1: went on for a short time and then they talked 416 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:58,920 Speaker 1: about just doing their job and that hopefully they'll find it. 417 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,439 Speaker 1: Based on the information that their answers to the questions 418 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 1: that were on the interview and the way they responded 419 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:11,640 Speaker 1: in the Covit investigation, I formed the opinion and when 420 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 1: I say, I am talking for the strike Force, although 421 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:17,120 Speaker 1: the butt stops with me, but based on the information, 422 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:21,200 Speaker 1: everyone was comfortable with the fact that they've been eliminated. 423 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 1: It was important time too, because it was in the 424 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 1: lead up to the million dollar reward. 425 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:29,640 Speaker 2: So you came up with the strategy or the strike 426 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 2: force came up with a strategy to announce a million 427 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 2: dollar award, which at the time in New South Wales 428 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:34,640 Speaker 2: was very unusual. 429 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 1: It was the first first reward and it was approved 430 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: at ministerial level, and that was on the back of 431 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:46,439 Speaker 1: a phone call that I received from a minister and 432 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:51,120 Speaker 1: said what would you like and said a million dollar reward. 433 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,680 Speaker 1: We might be able to use that strategically. 434 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,719 Speaker 2: Because it not just might motivate someone, but it might 435 00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 2: also get people talking. 436 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 1: Get people talking, and it tell a lot too if 437 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:03,639 Speaker 1: there's at that particular point in time, I think there 438 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 1: was a focus on the pedophile ring, A me and 439 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 1: dollar reward would separate that. If there's a group of 440 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:11,960 Speaker 1: people that might potentially be involved in it, A me 441 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:14,920 Speaker 1: and dollar reward is a life changing type of situation. 442 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:19,399 Speaker 1: There was a strategy, a very clear strategy that I 443 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,639 Speaker 1: spent a lot of time with doctor Sarahuel, who was 444 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 1: a senior forensic psychologist with the New South Wales Police. 445 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 1: She was a leader in a field in the country. 446 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 1: She was pretty well embedded in the investigation that I 447 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 1: relied on her heavily because it was a difficult investigation 448 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:40,200 Speaker 1: because to solve this investigation without any physical evidence, which 449 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 1: we didn't have, you needed either a confession or you 450 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 1: needed forensic evidence link physical evidence linking a person to 451 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:53,440 Speaker 1: the crime, or eyewitness accounts of which we didn't have any. 452 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 1: So the me and dollar reward was a strategy. We 453 00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 1: announced that I think it was on the second anniversary 454 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 1: to give it the power that needed. And this was 455 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:07,640 Speaker 1: all in consult consultation with Sarah. There was very key 456 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 1: messages I was putting out that with a million dollar reward, 457 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:16,160 Speaker 1: the person you might be watching at home. We're interested 458 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,679 Speaker 1: in someone that reacts strange when it comes on, gets 459 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 1: nervous when it comes on, or turns the TV off, 460 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 1: that type of thing. If someone's reacting strange when this 461 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: type of announcement is made. We also had the Premier 462 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:35,879 Speaker 1: mister bed there and Andrew Scipioni, the then commissioner there 463 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:37,240 Speaker 1: that supported. 464 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 2: It at the press court as a press conference. 465 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:41,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, so it was a big deal and this was 466 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,440 Speaker 1: something that we were really going to go hard on 467 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 1: and see what came from this announcement of the million 468 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:49,679 Speaker 1: dollar reward. And as I said, the first first in 469 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:53,159 Speaker 1: the state, the very clear message would put out that 470 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 1: and normally the rewards and I think when this was 471 00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 1: announced last week that was slightly wrong. They were saying 472 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,200 Speaker 1: me and dollar reward for the conviction of William Tyrell 473 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 1: for the conviction of person responsible for the deduction and 474 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 1: murder of William Tyrell. That's not the case. It was 475 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:12,159 Speaker 1: me and dollar reward for anyone that provided information to 476 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,240 Speaker 1: find out what happened to So even in the wording 477 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,879 Speaker 1: of the reward, it was very specific the way that 478 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:23,640 Speaker 1: we did it. So then we're we received the type 479 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,679 Speaker 1: of information you expect at. 480 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 2: That press conference as well. You said something about your feeling, 481 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,680 Speaker 2: your thoughts about the foster and biology will, didn't. 482 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 1: You part of the reason I wanted to do make 483 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 1: sure that satisfy myself with that operation. I told of 484 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:46,480 Speaker 1: where we interviewed them and had the COVID operation was. 485 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,919 Speaker 1: I knew at the press conference I would be asked 486 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 1: have the families been eliminated? The foster family and the 487 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 1: biological family, And I had to make sure that I 488 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 1: was comfortable and everyone else that was supporting the press 489 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 1: conference were comfortable that we could say, yes, the family 490 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:07,440 Speaker 1: have been eliminated, both biological and foster family eliminated. 491 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:12,639 Speaker 2: Whenever a child disappears, I think it's not surprising that 492 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 2: most outsider's response is to immediately suspect the people closest 493 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 2: to that child. I've done it myself. You know, you 494 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,159 Speaker 2: see a family on TV and you think, have you 495 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:26,879 Speaker 2: done it? And I know that in any high profile 496 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 2: Murtter investigation, rumors are swirling. You know, we go back 497 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 2: to Lindy Chamberlain, to Joanne Lee's. As recently as last month, 498 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 2: a little girl disappeared in w A Cleo Smith and 499 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,320 Speaker 2: that had a very different result. What is that about, 500 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 2: and how is that playing into the situation that we're 501 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 2: seeing right here in South Wales. 502 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,760 Speaker 1: Now, okay, we'll make the observation because it's fairly recent 503 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 1: in all our minds Cleo smith disappearance. When you first 504 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 1: saw the family doing the press conference. I think, if 505 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 1: we're all honest with ourselves, we all formed an opinion 506 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 1: and we don't even have to break down the opinion. 507 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 1: I think we all know what I'm talking about. When 508 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 1: we were watching that press conference play out and watching 509 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 1: the way people were reacting, that wasn't the way that 510 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 1: we thought they should be reacting, and we came to 511 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 1: a conclusion. We all became arm chaired detectives. I was 512 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 1: an arm chaired detective and we're all thinking maybe that, 513 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 1: but take away the armchair. The real professional detectives understand 514 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 1: that means nothing. That's that rumor, that's white noise. That's 515 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 1: the things that gets you distracted. And with the Cleo 516 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 1: Smith thing, I think we're all honest with ourselves. The 517 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 1: majority of us were wrong with the assumptions that we made. 518 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 1: I think with children, it is likely that you start 519 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 1: at ground zero. Of course, you start at ground zero. 520 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 1: I mean you'd have to be a numb school not 521 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:52,520 Speaker 1: to look at where did the child disappear from. They're 522 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 1: rare in the types of time it happens. And I 523 00:29:56,360 --> 00:30:00,520 Speaker 1: think even the way that the police responded with the 524 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 1: Cleo Smith one and Q doos to good police work. 525 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:06,959 Speaker 1: It looked like they hit the ground running, not just 526 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:08,920 Speaker 1: for the search for the child lost, but from an 527 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:12,560 Speaker 1: investigative point of view, and I think that was pretty impressive. 528 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 1: But yeah, with children, I think there is a natural 529 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 1: assumption we don't want to find the bad the monster 530 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 1: under the Yeah I was going to say boogie man, 531 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 1: but yeah, monster on the bed's probably a better term. 532 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 2: So you know, as parents, we don't want it to 533 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:33,720 Speaker 2: be a reality that someone might snatch a child, that 534 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 2: a stranger might snatch a child. So it's potentially more 535 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 2: reassuring or less frightening to think, oh, it's got to 536 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker 2: be the parents, or it's got to be the cousin, 537 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 2: or it's got to be someone who's in the household. 538 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 1: I agree to a certain extent, but there is also 539 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 1: I saw this with the William Tyrell matter. There was 540 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 1: a narrative everyone wanted the pedophile. Yeah, when you've been 541 00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 1: around as long as I do. You know how pedophiles look, 542 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 1: and they don't always stand because they prey on people 543 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:05,680 Speaker 1: feeling comfortable in their environment. But people wanted this pedophile 544 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 1: monster with horns coming out of their head to be 545 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,160 Speaker 1: the offender, and that's not always the case. So I 546 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 1: agree with what you're saying. Yes, it's easier to process 547 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 1: if it's someone that's known to the child. 548 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 2: Part of the way that the William Tyrole case unfolded 549 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 2: is that William disappeared, his mother called Tripolo and then 550 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 2: immediately it was a search for a lost kid and 551 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 2: so the site was absolutely inundated with well meaning people 552 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 2: looking for him as it lost in the bush. So 553 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 2: the pony club, the sees, everyone from the street was 554 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,360 Speaker 2: out trampling all over the site, so any evidence that 555 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 2: might have been there was gone. Yeah, And in the 556 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 2: Cleosmith case, we saw that police came in very quickly. 557 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 2: It was immediately a homicide. It was a potential abduction 558 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 2: case that they were looking at, and so you know, 559 00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 2: they were DNA testing rubbish from all the rubbish bins 560 00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 2: and they were going through everything very forensically from the 561 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 2: very beginning, and no doubt that helped them in that 562 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 2: matter in relation to William Tyrrel. How did that And 563 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:11,760 Speaker 2: you've touched on this a little bit before, What does 564 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 2: that mean in terms of finding a suspect. So you 565 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,240 Speaker 2: don't have any DNA, you don't have any footprints, you 566 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 2: don't have fingerprints, there's no blood. 567 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 1: What are you looking for? Yeah, well that's what makes 568 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 1: this type of investigation difficult. You're looking for confessional material 569 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 1: so you get someone to confess. You're looking for forensic 570 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 1: evidence that will link that person to the offense, or 571 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,600 Speaker 1: witness testimony, all of which were not available with the 572 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:40,800 Speaker 1: William Tyrell one. So what you've got to do, And 573 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:44,080 Speaker 1: this is why on this particular matter, I thought it 574 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 1: was necessary to have doctor Sarah Yule heavily involved in 575 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 1: the investigation from the outset, and I know hands was 576 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 1: relying on her before I became involved to help look 577 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 1: at the suspects. Now, with the William Tyrell matter, people 578 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:04,800 Speaker 1: talk about the publicly identified suspects, and there's been a 579 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:10,440 Speaker 1: few of them, and some have been right in everyone's face. 580 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 1: But there's a lot of other suspects that we're targeting, 581 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:15,719 Speaker 1: and a lot of other suspects that were working on that. 582 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:19,320 Speaker 1: No one knows about, and it was a process of elimination. 583 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:22,840 Speaker 1: When I'm doing a homicide investigation, I was taught this 584 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 1: by people before me. I had some very good people 585 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:31,120 Speaker 1: training in the art of a homicide investigator. Motive, opportunity, 586 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:34,480 Speaker 1: and capability, now that was what I think. I put 587 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 1: that in the investigation plan. When I've created the investigation plan, 588 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:39,880 Speaker 1: we look at motive, we look at the opportunity, we 589 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:46,360 Speaker 1: look at capability. Let's move motive aside, but opportunity, you've 590 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:48,360 Speaker 1: got to have someone there. And that's where the William 591 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 1: Tyrrell matter is fairly unique because at the end of 592 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:53,760 Speaker 1: Bend and Ruin Drive, it's a dead end street. You're 593 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 1: not going to drive there and get lost. It's almost 594 00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 1: you get a sense that it's going to come to 595 00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:00,479 Speaker 1: a dead end. So you've got to put someone there 596 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:04,480 Speaker 1: in ben and Ruin Drive capability. This is a difficult 597 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:09,160 Speaker 1: one too, because who's capable of abducting a three year 598 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 1: old three year old child? Clearly, an evil pedophile type 599 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:19,680 Speaker 1: might be. But Sarah, you'll caution me that the person 600 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:21,719 Speaker 1: that's done this mightn't even know why they've done that. 601 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,759 Speaker 1: I've done this, so that sort of opens it up 602 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:29,239 Speaker 1: as well. Then the motive. What is the motive? Well, 603 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 1: people I think can only kid It must be a pedophile, 604 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 1: that's the motive. But you also have the childless couples 605 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 1: or that might try to take a child, So we 606 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,400 Speaker 1: look at those things. Obviously, opportunity is the easiest to 607 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:47,880 Speaker 1: rule out. If someone's in prison when we're looking at 608 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:50,399 Speaker 1: them at the time of William's abduction, they're gone, They're 609 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,200 Speaker 1: off the list. The other thing that we did with 610 00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:56,320 Speaker 1: this investigation, and this is where when there's criticism of 611 00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 1: the investigation, I invite people to scrutinize it. As a 612 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:02,400 Speaker 1: minister said, let there'd be an inquiry because I was 613 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,840 Speaker 1: presented with a situation. We're inundated with evidence and we 614 00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 1: had to prioritize how we work our way through through 615 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,760 Speaker 1: the suspects. I think there was over a thousand sightings 616 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:17,200 Speaker 1: of William Terial we were dealing with that we had 617 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,239 Speaker 1: at one stage, and I'm talking when I say that's 618 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:23,600 Speaker 1: the time period that I was responsible for the investigation. 619 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:28,160 Speaker 1: That for year period, six hundred suspects, six hundred persons 620 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 1: of interest. Now people go, Jesus, you must have no 621 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:34,240 Speaker 1: idea what's going on? But we would prioritize those persons 622 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:38,120 Speaker 1: of interest. We'd high priority, low priority, medium priority, and 623 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:40,920 Speaker 1: we'd categorize them and that way we could work through it. 624 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 1: So we'd eliminate a suspect depending on the resources what 625 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 1: we did. And some and these are suspects that you 626 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:52,600 Speaker 1: don't even know about. They're very complex operations. We've got 627 00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 1: to test the water, push a little bit, find out 628 00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:58,919 Speaker 1: how that person reacts, and cover that and then come 629 00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,120 Speaker 1: to a conclusion where that person can go off the 630 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:03,960 Speaker 1: suspect list or not. So that's how we dealt with it. 631 00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:08,799 Speaker 1: State Crime they saw that we just did not have 632 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,280 Speaker 1: the resources to manage what we were doing at the time, 633 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:17,120 Speaker 1: so they created an additional strike force with other police 634 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:21,799 Speaker 1: coming in and we created packages for the suspects and 635 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:24,720 Speaker 1: those packages had everything that the people, the full time 636 00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:27,799 Speaker 1: people worked on and we'd hand those packages out to 637 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,719 Speaker 1: other teams and detectives and that have all the information 638 00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:34,480 Speaker 1: contained in the folder, and then they would follow that 639 00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 1: up and then they'd have to report back. So that 640 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 1: was a way that we addressed with the numbers. So 641 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:44,080 Speaker 1: there was some you know, I think, and I don't 642 00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:46,720 Speaker 1: take credit for it, because it was a team effort, 643 00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 1: but there were some very innovative ways that we dealt 644 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,680 Speaker 1: with the sheer volume of information that came in about 645 00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:56,240 Speaker 1: William Tyrrell. And I think I personally think and this 646 00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:59,320 Speaker 1: is this is other people might have different views and 647 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:03,560 Speaker 1: it's only that police just didn't realize what we're sitting 648 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,640 Speaker 1: on with William Tyrell. Like people the William Tyrell or 649 00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,160 Speaker 1: William Tyrel, someone would sneeze and it's on the front 650 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:14,120 Speaker 1: page as we see now. Why. I think partly because 651 00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:16,800 Speaker 1: of the iconic fate of William and people could relate 652 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 1: to it. I also think the fact that William disappeared 653 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:22,960 Speaker 1: from his grandparents or grandmother's home, which everyone you take 654 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:27,040 Speaker 1: your child to grandparents' home, everyone feels safe for whatever reason, 655 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:31,200 Speaker 1: that captured the imagination of the public, the media, and 656 00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:35,160 Speaker 1: that added to the pressure of running the investigation. But 657 00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:38,080 Speaker 1: certainly not out of our depth running the investigation, but 658 00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:40,960 Speaker 1: there just needed to be an appreciation of what this 659 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:45,799 Speaker 1: investigation was about. I mentioned earlier that the only disagreements, 660 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:47,719 Speaker 1: and that's probably putting too strong a word on it, 661 00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:50,640 Speaker 1: was when we're talking about whether the investigation should be 662 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:55,880 Speaker 1: shut down or referred to unsolved homicide. You know, benefits 663 00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,520 Speaker 1: a great thing, or hindsight's a great thing. I should say. 664 00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:00,920 Speaker 1: I'm sitting here now, three years after I've left, and 665 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:03,600 Speaker 1: I know this, they're still running very heavily on the investigation. 666 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:05,440 Speaker 1: So I think I was probably right when I was 667 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:10,879 Speaker 1: saying the investigation shouldn't have been downsized all those years ago. 668 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:14,040 Speaker 2: Was there significant pressure to send it to unsolved tom site? 669 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:18,000 Speaker 1: There was pressure, But I also want to say that 670 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:24,480 Speaker 1: policing is a robust business. There's always competing interests. So 671 00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:28,279 Speaker 1: I'm not saying I'll argue my point and that might 672 00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:31,080 Speaker 1: be overruled, and I'll accept that because sometimes you've got 673 00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:33,880 Speaker 1: to move on. So I don't want to be critical 674 00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:37,240 Speaker 1: in terms of the way resources are managed because people 675 00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:41,160 Speaker 1: are sitting above me deciding, well, we've got to prioritize 676 00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:44,400 Speaker 1: that I operate at my level, and my level was 677 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:47,200 Speaker 1: on my retirement was out of chief inspector, so I'm 678 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 1: a commissioned officer. So you're in that management level. So 679 00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:53,200 Speaker 1: you can allocate your resources that you've given the way 680 00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:56,600 Speaker 1: you want to allocate those resources, but people above me 681 00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:00,399 Speaker 1: allocate the resources to me. So yeah, there's a chain 682 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:04,520 Speaker 1: of command and That's where I bring back to and 683 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:09,279 Speaker 1: the comments that it was in the shambles. Well, I'll 684 00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,400 Speaker 1: accept responsibility for what I've done on the investigation, but 685 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:16,600 Speaker 1: my expectation these people above me also accept responsibility. They're 686 00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:19,000 Speaker 1: going to call that the shambles. And what I find 687 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:21,480 Speaker 1: quite ironic is that it were so heavily reported on 688 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:24,799 Speaker 1: and there was no criticism whatsoever in the way that 689 00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,719 Speaker 1: I was running the investigation, and the commanders were well 690 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:31,000 Speaker 1: in their right to take me off the investigation if 691 00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:34,799 Speaker 1: they thought I was out of my depth running the investigation. 692 00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:41,080 Speaker 2: What is this case all about? Who is this case about? 693 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,440 Speaker 1: The case should always be about William Tyrrell and that 694 00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:50,200 Speaker 1: is the real tragedy of what's taken place in that 695 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:53,719 Speaker 1: And I think that was the foster mother's concern, or 696 00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:57,160 Speaker 1: the foster family, and I'm sure and the biological family 697 00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:02,040 Speaker 1: that the only priority should be that of finding Whim, 698 00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:04,200 Speaker 1: finding out what happened to Wim. And I think an 699 00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,200 Speaker 1: organization like the New South Wales Police should be judged 700 00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:09,680 Speaker 1: on how we respond to a job like this. 701 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:15,719 Speaker 2: If the person who's currently a person of interest, the 702 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:20,839 Speaker 2: foster mother, is ultimately charged and convicted, what would your 703 00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:21,560 Speaker 2: responsibit of that. 704 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:26,399 Speaker 1: My priority response is I want to find out what's 705 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,880 Speaker 1: happened to wim wherever the cards fall, and that's the 706 00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:34,320 Speaker 1: lot of a homicide detective. So if, and I say if, 707 00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:37,440 Speaker 1: because I saying at the time that I left the 708 00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:39,960 Speaker 1: investigation there was no evidence, I don't know what's taken 709 00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:45,600 Speaker 1: past there, well and good. I'm all for bringing to 710 00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:49,560 Speaker 1: justice people that have committed crimes, especially serious crimes such 711 00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:53,080 Speaker 1: as this, So I have no qualms with that. And yeah, 712 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:57,319 Speaker 1: I'm think now that the door's been open and I've 713 00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:00,759 Speaker 1: I've been sitting on this for ages. Yeah, like I 714 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,160 Speaker 1: don't want to talk about it because and it's an 715 00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:06,160 Speaker 1: open investigation or it's a current investigation, so it's not 716 00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:09,879 Speaker 1: good form to talk about the investigation. But I think 717 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:14,400 Speaker 1: people think I go down one path and then won't 718 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:18,400 Speaker 1: change my view if you've got to base your opinions 719 00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:21,840 Speaker 1: on evidence. And I can't stress this enough, and I 720 00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:24,440 Speaker 1: wish we could all when I say, well, because I'm 721 00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:28,560 Speaker 1: a member of the public, now take a step back, 722 00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:32,040 Speaker 1: take a breath. With everything that's coming out in the 723 00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:34,640 Speaker 1: news at the moment, like the Leads story was William 724 00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:37,719 Speaker 1: Tyrell all week every time turned on the TV or 725 00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,600 Speaker 1: listen to the radio, or open the paper. It was 726 00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:43,680 Speaker 1: William Tyrell. William Tyrell. Everyone needs to take a step 727 00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:48,000 Speaker 1: back and let's see how it plays out. William Yrell, 728 00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:50,879 Speaker 1: for whatever reason, has played out very publicly, so many 729 00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:54,120 Speaker 1: many times, and I think we'd all be best served 730 00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:56,800 Speaker 1: in just taking a deep breath, take a step back 731 00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:59,440 Speaker 1: and see what's happened. Very easy to paint someone in 732 00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:03,600 Speaker 1: a light without knowing the full details, and so from 733 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:07,160 Speaker 1: my point of view as a former homicide detective now 734 00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:09,480 Speaker 1: member of the public, but with the experience of a 735 00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:13,160 Speaker 1: homicide detective, let's just see what happens before people come 736 00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:14,520 Speaker 1: to conclusions. 737 00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:19,120 Speaker 2: If that doesn't happen, if the person of interest is 738 00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:21,719 Speaker 2: not charged, not convicted, and this does end up going 739 00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:25,560 Speaker 2: to unsolved homicide, what are the events of this week mean? 740 00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:26,640 Speaker 2: What's happened this week? 741 00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:35,160 Speaker 1: This week? This week, My observation has been someone has 742 00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:39,680 Speaker 1: been publicly hung out, and there's no other way of 743 00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:45,640 Speaker 1: describing it. There's strategies we're in policing. I'm not talking 744 00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:48,960 Speaker 1: stuff that people don't know, but pressure is applied. That's obvious. 745 00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:51,440 Speaker 1: From the time I was locking people up for breaking 746 00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:57,120 Speaker 1: enters or shoplifting your apply pressure. The way it's played 747 00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:01,759 Speaker 1: out now, I hope the people are orchestrating this know 748 00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:07,760 Speaker 1: what they're doing because it's playing high stakes and playing hardball, 749 00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:12,600 Speaker 1: playing high stakes, but with high stakes there's consequences. And yeah, 750 00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:17,080 Speaker 1: if let's just say hypothetical, nothing comes of it, no 751 00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:21,240 Speaker 1: one's charged. Well, yeah, look at how many lives have 752 00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:25,520 Speaker 1: been impacted upon. And that's what worries me about this. 753 00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:29,720 Speaker 1: And people think I wouldn't want it solved because I've 754 00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:34,520 Speaker 1: said that publicly. You know they're being eliminated or whatever. 755 00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:36,920 Speaker 1: I want to see this solved as much as anyone. 756 00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:39,640 Speaker 1: And I think that's I really want to get that, 757 00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:42,080 Speaker 1: get that point across, because I don't know what's been 758 00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:44,760 Speaker 1: said about me, But the fact that the commissioner comes 759 00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:48,320 Speaker 1: out and says the things he did, he doesn't know 760 00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:52,880 Speaker 1: me and has no understanding of who I am to 761 00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:54,320 Speaker 1: make those comments. 762 00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:58,600 Speaker 2: It's I think the the implication is jubilant got too 763 00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:00,319 Speaker 2: close and a cloud at his man. 764 00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:05,480 Speaker 1: I'd lock up my mother if I thought she had 765 00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:11,040 Speaker 1: murdered someone. So I laugh at that because that's what 766 00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:13,440 Speaker 1: it needs. It needs to be laughed at. And I 767 00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:16,240 Speaker 1: just find it. And when I say I find the defensive, 768 00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:17,799 Speaker 1: I know you're just free laying it. So I'm not 769 00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:20,279 Speaker 1: angry at you, but I'm so angry at people that 770 00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:23,960 Speaker 1: suggest that because what I'm prepared to cover up a murder. 771 00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:27,920 Speaker 1: I've got close to every victims family throughout my whole career, 772 00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:30,879 Speaker 1: and I make no bones about it. And I'm going 773 00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:33,200 Speaker 1: to make a strong point here because I'm sick of 774 00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:37,000 Speaker 1: hearing this narrative that he gets too close to victims. 775 00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:40,759 Speaker 1: Lazy people say that because managing victims is hard, but 776 00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:43,279 Speaker 1: to manage a victim, give them a little bit of 777 00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:46,319 Speaker 1: humanity is not a big ask when they've lost a 778 00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:49,359 Speaker 1: loved one. And it's lazy police that say you get 779 00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:51,600 Speaker 1: too close to victims. From a good to take this 780 00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:54,040 Speaker 1: point of view, if I'm going after someone, I want 781 00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:56,480 Speaker 1: to be as close as possible as well, So think 782 00:44:56,520 --> 00:44:59,319 Speaker 1: of it that way. You want to know what's going 783 00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:02,760 Speaker 1: on with the victim, get close to someone that knows 784 00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:05,000 Speaker 1: the victim well, and you'll get information that if you 785 00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:08,759 Speaker 1: keep yourself at a distance distance you won't. So yeah, 786 00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:11,160 Speaker 1: it's it's a narrative that plays out, and I think 787 00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:15,320 Speaker 1: it's lazy people hide behind it, Oh, get too close, 788 00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:18,160 Speaker 1: too passionate or whatever. You're talking about the murder of 789 00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:20,439 Speaker 1: someone or a disappearance of a three year old child, 790 00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:23,279 Speaker 1: and I think the other thing. And it's just made 791 00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:27,760 Speaker 1: me think about it now. What we're dealing with William's 792 00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:32,239 Speaker 1: disappearance and the likelihood is it's unlikely that he's going 793 00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:37,359 Speaker 1: to be found alive, but we don't know. And yeah, 794 00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:39,680 Speaker 1: no one thought Cleo was going to be found alive 795 00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:43,600 Speaker 1: and she was. We're working with that as well on 796 00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:46,799 Speaker 1: the on the William tyrole matter, so we're dealing with that. 797 00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:49,200 Speaker 1: So all those factors sort of have played in. And 798 00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:53,160 Speaker 1: one thing I think it's very important I should say 799 00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:56,960 Speaker 1: that I've taken offense to what was said by the commissioner. 800 00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:01,959 Speaker 1: There were so many hard working detectives on that strikeforce. 801 00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:04,840 Speaker 1: That reflects on them as well. I'll take the Knox 802 00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:07,120 Speaker 1: because I was the figurehead of it, but I know 803 00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:10,120 Speaker 1: people that that would upset them greatly because I saw 804 00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:13,800 Speaker 1: how hard people worked on that investigation when I was 805 00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:16,560 Speaker 1: running it for four years. Not everyone. Some people didn't 806 00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:18,480 Speaker 1: want to be on it, but the majority of the 807 00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:22,120 Speaker 1: detectives gave it their all and it impacted on their lives. 808 00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:24,640 Speaker 1: They spent a lot of time away from home. The 809 00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:26,840 Speaker 1: job wasn't based in Sydney. There was a lot of 810 00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:30,360 Speaker 1: time away. And I saw, I don't think I've had 811 00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:36,160 Speaker 1: an investigation where I've seen so many detectives crying and like, yeah, 812 00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:40,759 Speaker 1: that's emotion that was attached to that investigation. So when 813 00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:42,960 Speaker 1: these people are given their all and some of them 814 00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:46,120 Speaker 1: have been broken by the investigation, it has broken people. 815 00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:49,439 Speaker 1: And then the commissioner is saying, well, you know you're 816 00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:53,000 Speaker 1: wasting time. That is just so offensive and that's what's 817 00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:56,280 Speaker 1: brought me out from behind the behind the covers. Basically, 818 00:46:56,840 --> 00:46:59,920 Speaker 1: Like as I said, I sat for a day or 819 00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:02,520 Speaker 1: to thinking what do I do? How do I respond? 820 00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:04,480 Speaker 1: I don't want to pick a fight. I don't want 821 00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:06,400 Speaker 1: to have an argument. I didn't pick a fight. The 822 00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:10,400 Speaker 1: fight was picked with me and criticizing my professionalism and 823 00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:13,319 Speaker 1: this is my response to it. And I say, the 824 00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:16,920 Speaker 1: documents are there, the records are there. I'm a homicide detective. 825 00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:19,920 Speaker 1: I keep documents. It's all there, retained by the New 826 00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:21,000 Speaker 1: South Wales Police. 827 00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:23,120 Speaker 2: Gary. Thanks very much for joining us. 828 00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:24,120 Speaker 1: Thanks claim