Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average person is
Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my chat with former
Speaker 1: bikey and maximum security in Adam Smith. In part one,
Speaker 1: we spoke about his early life, how I met him
Speaker 1: in prison, his time as a senior member of an
Speaker 1: outlaw motorcycle gang, and he's experiences in gold and supermax prison.
Speaker 1: In part two, we speak about how a change of
Speaker 1: prisons changed his outlook on life and what he is
Speaker 1: doing since he was released from prison last year. Adam Smith.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to I Catch Killers.
Speaker 2: How you doing good?
Speaker 1: Good to have you back.
Speaker 2: Be mate.
Speaker 1: Speaking the other day, I said, what are you doing
Speaker 1: with yourself? And you called yourself an artist. Yes, so
Speaker 1: that's a that's a big jump from violent prisoner in
Speaker 1: so violent that they had to be put in the
Speaker 1: supermax in Golden what's the art that you're into? Tell
Speaker 1: us about that?
Speaker 2: So art? Was it come across?
Speaker 3: I guess you could say in the supermax when I
Speaker 3: finally got a pen and paper. I love to tell
Speaker 3: the story that I learned to the art scribe and
Speaker 3: my finger I was in the war, but that's not true.
Speaker 3: I used to just sketch a little bit, just a
Speaker 3: doodle and that sort of I guess that kind of
Speaker 3: created something and then I didn't touch on it. But
Speaker 3: when I went to Macquarie, it's some really good artists.
Speaker 3: Like when I say really good, I mean really really
Speaker 3: really good.
Speaker 1: I've been to that the center there in the prison. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there are some great pieces of art.
Speaker 3: So I spent a lot of time with I guess,
Speaker 3: two of the best artists, but not associating around art.
Speaker 3: We live together in a pod, you know. Yeah, Now
Speaker 3: these two guys in particular, they could have gone through
Speaker 3: and entered into the Archer bulb. They actually paved the
Speaker 3: way sort of for art programs, I guess, in the
Speaker 3: jail system. One of them in particular, who you met,
Speaker 3: Bruce Harrison. Things happened in jail, and they're out of
Speaker 3: people's control. He was destined to go and do the
Speaker 3: last of his sentence teaching an art program. I think
Speaker 3: it might have been at Long Bay, but that changed.
Speaker 3: But I had the, I guess, fortunate luck of being
Speaker 3: able to watch these guys paint every day. I was
Speaker 3: convinced to start.
Speaker 2: Well.
Speaker 3: First of all, I was convinced to try and join
Speaker 3: their art class. But I still had so much cork.
Speaker 3: My cork ran for over four years, you know. And
Speaker 3: when I started drawing, they were decent drawings. When I
Speaker 3: look back on them, they're not so decent, but at
Speaker 3: the time that yeah. And when I showed when I
Speaker 3: showed them, it was like, well, you should start painting.
Speaker 1: Did you Did you have a natural aptitude for art?
Speaker 1: Did you delve into it before you went to prison?
Speaker 2: When I was younger, like, I was never really good
Speaker 2: at it. My brother was very good at.
Speaker 3: Doing graffiti, like we set up big boards out in
Speaker 3: the backyard at mum and Dad's and little kids, and
Speaker 3: it was never any good. But I never had a
Speaker 3: thought about being an artist. But I played guitar when
Speaker 3: I was younger, and I was pretty pretty good at
Speaker 3: it too, and so I was always there was an
Speaker 3: artistic I just didn't realize it was.
Speaker 1: You hadn't developed it or it hadn't come.
Speaker 2: Out, and I still don't know how I do it.
Speaker 1: Okay, well we'll talk about that. But we we left
Speaker 1: you in part one. You're still in super Max and
Speaker 1: now we're talking about your art. But I'm just going
Speaker 1: to I can do this. I suppose it's of course,
Speaker 1: of course it's a podcast, But have a look at
Speaker 1: that drawing that you've done. I spotted it straight away
Speaker 1: when I walk in. You bought it in It's Malcolm X.
Speaker 2: Yeah likeness an oil painting of malcom X. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well that's a good example of your art. So
Speaker 1: we'll talk more about that. But I wanted to show people,
Speaker 1: and if those that are listening that's showing, it doesn't
Speaker 1: really help. But what we've got here is a portrait
Speaker 1: that to me, it looked like a photograph of Malcolm X.
Speaker 1: We'll talk about that a little bit later, but I just.
Speaker 2: Thought i'd show people, Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1: Just before we get in the Macquarie I just want
Speaker 1: to rehash, and I think we touched on it, that
Speaker 1: super Max has been renovated and there was sixty prisoners
Speaker 1: in super Max. Twenty had to get relocated and you
Speaker 1: got relocated to Macquarie Correctional Center is up near Dabba.
Speaker 2: That's right.
Speaker 1: Macquarie Correctional Center is a new way of handling prisons
Speaker 1: and that was the reason that I was in prison
Speaker 1: when out past First Cross to have a look at
Speaker 1: the way that they're treating prisoners. It's completely different to
Speaker 1: what I would call the traditional tell us about tell
Speaker 1: us about what you found when you walked into there.
Speaker 1: So you've gone from Golden the Yard in Golburen, which
Speaker 1: was a pretty volatile place, lots of violence, lots of yeah,
Speaker 1: lots of stuff went down there. You got kicked out
Speaker 1: of there into Supermax and where you're living in a
Speaker 1: cell on your own and very limited communication to be
Speaker 1: dropped in Macquarie Center. Talk us through that whole process.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no worry, Jerry.
Speaker 3: So so they just finished booting the MPU, which was
Speaker 3: the whole segregation inmates. So that was forty beds that
Speaker 3: they had in there. So, like I said, there were
Speaker 3: sixty inmates, and so that twenty of us had to
Speaker 3: go around the state into segregation. What they basically call it,
Speaker 3: they call it rotation. So if you get either segregation
Speaker 3: for a certain amount of time or something they call
Speaker 3: seventy eight A, which is housing, which means they can't
Speaker 3: house you for certain reasons, so you'll go onto a rotation.
Speaker 3: So I landed at Macquarie. You only really meant to
Speaker 3: stay at a certain location for a certain amount of time.
Speaker 3: I don't know how or why, but I ended up staying.
Speaker 3: I think I was well, I think I can't remember exactly,
Speaker 3: but it was a few months. And I was never
Speaker 3: meant to go up. I was never meant to go
Speaker 3: out into the main. It wasn't for gang members. It
Speaker 3: was meant to be for inmates that wanted to basically
Speaker 3: toe the line and develop and rehabilitate, and they put
Speaker 3: gang members off the table. Now, my experience with correctional
Speaker 3: officers was pretty much all bad. There was a certain
Speaker 3: level of I guess respect that I was given by
Speaker 3: certain offices in different jails, but there was never ever
Speaker 3: a level of being treated with respect, yeah, or given
Speaker 3: your dignity mind that. So when I went to mcclarie,
Speaker 3: I was obviously it was a big deal. So they
Speaker 3: had all the squad and because it's on the same
Speaker 3: property as Wellington Jail, which is very much similar to
Speaker 3: Goldban or silver Water.
Speaker 1: Or something in the traditional sense of a prison, and.
Speaker 3: It's on the same property, so I'm assuming that they
Speaker 3: must have had some of the squad from there as
Speaker 3: we will come. And at the end of this time,
Speaker 3: you can imagine what I've just been through. The first
Speaker 3: thing that I asked when I got off the tracks,
Speaker 3: so I get a TV? And they said yes, And
Speaker 3: I sat down on the end of the bed for
Speaker 3: about probably eight hours watching kids shows. I couldn't believe
Speaker 3: my eyes, you.
Speaker 1: Know, just to get some form of stimulation, fl.
Speaker 3: Like I was free. That's how I felt, right. I
Speaker 3: was still very unsure of my future in jail at
Speaker 3: this point.
Speaker 1: So how far into sixty sentence that you've served at this.
Speaker 3: Stage, maybe about so close to a year, right, So
Speaker 3: I still had no I still had no idea what
Speaker 3: was happening with my court. I ended up fighting another
Speaker 3: three trials after my After my court, they just kept
Speaker 3: trying to get me and get me, but I beat
Speaker 3: those trials. Brad Peebles, who's who was the governor of
Speaker 3: mcclorie at the time. He went above and beyond to
Speaker 3: give inmates an opportunity, and I think it probably could
Speaker 3: have cost him his career in doing it if it
Speaker 3: had gone wrong. It was only ever meant to be
Speaker 3: an experiment. I don't know, did you know that?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know initially there was. It was bored in
Speaker 1: years ago and then then stopped and the Brad peoples
Speaker 1: very much promoted it and pushed it. And it's not
Speaker 1: this similar to like a Norwegian way of handling prisoners.
Speaker 1: Just so our listeners understand what we're talking about here,
Speaker 1: your maximum security prisoner, and yeah, max security prisoners are
Speaker 1: praying to violence and you keep some tight control on them,
Speaker 1: a lot of lockdowns, you spend a lot of time
Speaker 1: in your cell super macs, you spend an extremely large
Speaker 1: amount of time in your cell, and you're not allowed
Speaker 1: to mix with other inmates. So you've gone from that
Speaker 1: environment into what they had at Macquarie Correctional Center where
Speaker 1: they had dorms with twenty five maximum security prisoners in there.
Speaker 1: That's when when I walked into the dorm, I thought
Speaker 1: that would be a bloodbath. They're having twenty five of
Speaker 1: you all in there, just all locked away, access to
Speaker 1: twenty five other other inmates. Yeah, but you tell the
Speaker 1: story because I was observing, and how did you feel
Speaker 1: when you were given that much, well, basically freedom within
Speaker 1: a prison as much as a freedom that you get.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, definitely. There was no certainty of my stay
Speaker 3: at Macquarie. I was online, I was told that it
Speaker 3: was made very clear to me as soon as I
Speaker 3: got there. Spending my time in supermax. This was massively
Speaker 3: concerning because their segregation units at Macquarie, the way I
Speaker 3: described it at the time, was an F one motel
Speaker 3: room compared.
Speaker 1: To what from what you came to from.
Speaker 3: So you have your dignity, you have you have you
Speaker 3: have room, you have a massive bench that you can
Speaker 3: work on, you have toilet, chaw, it's all clean, the
Speaker 3: same size as your little yard out the back. And
Speaker 3: this is in segregation, and you're treated well when you're
Speaker 3: down there as long as you respect, you give me
Speaker 3: like so it's reciprocated.
Speaker 1: Okay, so this is the segregation section we've been Macquarie
Speaker 1: Correctional Center. What you described describing there, Yes, so distinct
Speaker 1: from the dorms where the general population got.
Speaker 3: That's exactly right. So obviously Brad Peebles to do what
Speaker 3: he did, he had to have a great team. Now
Speaker 3: I'm sure that team consisted of a lot more people
Speaker 3: than I know of. Yeah, but he had Bywater, who
Speaker 3: is a stand up guy who has a reputation too
Speaker 3: for being a tough guy throughout his So he I
Speaker 3: think he was a boss of a squad. And this
Speaker 3: guy is an absolute gentleman. We'll have nothing but respect
Speaker 3: for him and the way that he conducts himself as
Speaker 3: an officer and the way that he treats inmates, hard
Speaker 3: but fair. I'd say he had Brett Lee's and you
Speaker 3: obviously met Brett Lee.
Speaker 1: So he's a character.
Speaker 2: Well he's a character so or.
Speaker 3: Just so the viewers can understand, this is the guy
Speaker 3: that went on to become the governor at the prison
Speaker 3: after Brad Peebles, he had gone on to another project.
Speaker 3: He's a psychologist and he runs with that every day. Okay, So,
Speaker 3: although there's always a certain amount of humor around whatever's
Speaker 3: coming out of his mouth, every word counts.
Speaker 1: That's a fair assessment.
Speaker 3: And he does that for a reason obviously, and there's
Speaker 3: only very few people that can pick up on that.
Speaker 3: So he's another one that has gone above and beyond
Speaker 3: to try and do things for certain inmates. Myself definitely.
Speaker 3: So with these guys in your corner, and then you
Speaker 3: have the intel side, which is run by a couple
Speaker 3: of officers.
Speaker 2: So you've got.
Speaker 3: Stanger Andrew Stinger, absolute absolute, dead set, stand up guy.
Speaker 3: This guy is very very smart, very calculated, but very fair.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So these guys you can understand, they run the intel,
Speaker 3: they can they know what's going on. Yeah, best intel
Speaker 3: in Australia and jail is that Macquarie. And then you've
Speaker 3: got standing there. Those two work together, but they maintain
Speaker 3: the respect of the inmates. I guess that actually matter
Speaker 3: to make him the system work.
Speaker 2: You give me.
Speaker 1: I'm taking on what you've what you're saying here, because
Speaker 1: it's unusual for a prisoner to be talking about coreactive services.
Speaker 1: Normally it's screws and the Blue and the Green don't
Speaker 1: mix traditional prisons. What I saw at Quarry Centa was
Speaker 1: that the respects went both ways. Yeah, and it wasn't
Speaker 1: sort of false respect. That was the creative services officers
Speaker 1: that I saw treated the prisoners with respect and the
Speaker 1: prisoners were treating the creative services officers with respect. And
Speaker 1: it was different to any jail I had been in,
Speaker 1: and the whole vibe felt felt different.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So this, this creates a little bit of an issue
Speaker 3: in the jail environment because then you have people that
Speaker 3: want to be in this shale, but then they want
Speaker 3: to make out like their mister gangster this that, and
Speaker 3: they don't want to respect the officers, but they actually do,
Speaker 3: but they just make out. So that creates a little
Speaker 3: bit of a little bit of an issue. So you've
Speaker 3: got to sort of put that aside and just do
Speaker 3: your own thing, you know. Like I said, jail politics
Speaker 3: are a funny thing. Always need to be able to
Speaker 3: make sure that you can walk into a jail yard
Speaker 3: somewhere because you might end up there.
Speaker 1: Well, you said to me the other day that when
Speaker 1: the prisoners that were talking to me were the ones
Speaker 1: that could hold their head up and didn't need to
Speaker 1: they weren't worried what other people thought. And I got
Speaker 1: to say, there was some hard cases in there in
Speaker 1: terms of if I look at I know their reputation,
Speaker 1: I had dealings, I know what they've done and who
Speaker 1: they are, and they'd stand up in any jail, yeah,
Speaker 1: for sure. But in this jail their behavior was changed
Speaker 1: and instead of bridging up, they were communicating and talking.
Speaker 2: And problem solvers, you know. So there's a fair fuel
Speaker 2: of that.
Speaker 3: It would always have to go out to diffuse something
Speaker 3: or just say, for instance, the jail started getting a
Speaker 3: little bit violent, they'd call a lot of us down
Speaker 3: to talk to us and say we need this to change.
Speaker 3: So then we would say, well what can you do
Speaker 3: for us? Like this is the way that we're working here,
Speaker 3: we're working with each other.
Speaker 2: So we saw a.
Speaker 3: Barter it down, you know, and then we back and
Speaker 3: we'd pull the pod in and say, well, this is
Speaker 3: what's going to happen because the jarl needs to be
Speaker 3: like this for the next few weeks, and there we'd
Speaker 3: make it happen.
Speaker 1: You know, how long did it take you to get
Speaker 1: moved into a pod?
Speaker 2: Okay?
Speaker 3: So, like I said, I was never really gone, but
Speaker 3: they kept coming in saying to me, or if you
Speaker 3: want to sign your intel off, we'll let you stay here,
Speaker 3: and I just thought it was a ja I thought
Speaker 3: it was a stitch up. I thought I'd trying to
Speaker 3: set me up to make it harder for me. Anyway,
Speaker 3: I ended up doing this. At the time, I was
Speaker 3: not leaving any club, and.
Speaker 1: That was what we're talking here. You've got to sign
Speaker 1: off any affiliation with the club because of gain coup
Speaker 1: in Macquarie.
Speaker 3: Center, so anyone that comes there has to do that
Speaker 3: right now. CIG Central Intelligence Group, So for people like myself,
Speaker 3: you're on their radar immediately anyway. So they're the ones
Speaker 3: that are responsible for the function functioning of New South Wales.
Speaker 3: I'm not sure if it's Asrail or that's New South Wales.
Speaker 3: But they said to.
Speaker 2: Me, you're a liar.
Speaker 3: Why you're there, They said, basically brought people to take
Speaker 3: a chance on you. Why you're there, that's fine, But
Speaker 3: when you're fuck up your ours and you're gone straight
Speaker 3: back to where you come from.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 3: So I had that in the back of my mind
Speaker 3: the whole time, and then they just slowly integrated me
Speaker 3: to the pod. They didn't just put me out the
Speaker 3: vis let me out at times and integrate with people slowly.
Speaker 1: But the way you describe it, Adam, it's like releasing
Speaker 1: the line back in.
Speaker 2: The Yeah, and it completely wasn't the case, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but that's they let you in, they test Okay,
Speaker 1: you spent a half an hour in there, there was
Speaker 1: no trouble, come back out, okay. So that process how long?
Speaker 1: How long did it take.
Speaker 2: That process?
Speaker 3: I guess it probably lasted around two to three weeks,
Speaker 3: And right up until the point when I walked into
Speaker 3: the pod with my trolling, I still didn't believe it.
Speaker 1: You know, you didn't believe you'd be released, or didn't
Speaker 1: believe in the environment that you'd be.
Speaker 3: No, I didn't believe that. I didn't believe that what
Speaker 3: was being said was true. Jail is a place where
Speaker 3: you be told many different things from someone that you
Speaker 3: will believe that should be telling you what you meant
Speaker 3: to hear. But I don't say from an officer or
Speaker 3: a person of a certain level. But it's not the case.
Speaker 3: You know, it's a very dark and distorted place, and
Speaker 3: you're never safe anywhere, like meaning that your position in
Speaker 3: any jlity is never Someone can just put that tick
Speaker 3: into the computer and you're on a truck. And my
Speaker 3: circumstances were I was like, what's it going to take nothing?
Speaker 3: It's going to take nothing. And so I had certain
Speaker 3: people on my side, but the majority of the officers
Speaker 3: and that were like, you're letting this guy hit into
Speaker 3: our prison, you know anyway, So then I come out
Speaker 3: of the present slowly have a time. I mean, it
Speaker 3: took the whole time for a lot of them. I
Speaker 3: think maybe they just thought I was full of shit.
Speaker 3: I've always been very respectful.
Speaker 1: And what do you think that the naysay is going
Speaker 1: through their mind? He's just taking the piss out of us.
Speaker 1: He'll get in there and when he's got an issue,
Speaker 1: he's going to light someone up and yeah, yeah, and
Speaker 1: then we'll send him back. So that would have been
Speaker 1: and given you history, it's a reasonable for him to
Speaker 1: have is just bullshitting to us, and let me in
Speaker 1: the dorm and when I do create havoc, it's going
Speaker 1: to be a big one. Then you can ship me
Speaker 1: back to super Max.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I guess you know, I understand why they
Speaker 3: think that, because, to be honest, I always said to
Speaker 3: myself that and do whatever I can to make sure
Speaker 3: that I keep my hands to myself.
Speaker 2: But if someone puts their hands on me. Well, that's
Speaker 2: different story, you know.
Speaker 3: And the problem that there was it was either going
Speaker 3: to be nothing or six o'clock New Style, Do.
Speaker 2: You get me?
Speaker 3: And that's not what I want to do though, and
Speaker 3: that's not what anyone wants say. I had, like, I
Speaker 3: worked on myself very hard.
Speaker 1: You know what stage was your mindset changing that, Hey,
Speaker 1: I want to turn my life around. Was it when
Speaker 1: you saw what was on offer at Macquarie Center. Was
Speaker 1: that something that changed? What was the thing that.
Speaker 3: So I just want to make something very clear. So
Speaker 3: I've just sat here and you give a lot of
Speaker 3: officers a good rap, a lot of correctional officers. The
Speaker 3: start of this change does not start with an inmate.
Speaker 3: And if anyone has the expectations that that's the case,
Speaker 3: you're completely wrong.
Speaker 2: And I can explain why.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So we come from a place where your battle is
Speaker 3: stay alive. There's Westpac. I only got the spine out
Speaker 3: of their daily So then I come to Macquarie, where
Speaker 3: there's where you're expected to toe this certain line. Right,
Speaker 3: but you're still in the same environment where you're dealing
Speaker 3: with the inmates, and.
Speaker 2: You've crossed bathro with these inmates.
Speaker 3: You might have gone the water with its inmate at
Speaker 3: some stage two and you're both there trying to do
Speaker 3: the right thing. Now for an officer to say get
Speaker 3: a to you in front of the boys and expect
Speaker 3: you just say good a back after you've just got
Speaker 3: a truck off a truck, when the only thing coming
Speaker 3: at your mouth that officer is get the fuck out
Speaker 3: of your dog. Yeah, now they're asking for something different, right,
Speaker 3: but as history shows, they've never given us any reason
Speaker 3: to give them respect. You show them respect and it
Speaker 3: would be used against you. Right now, you turn up
Speaker 3: to this place and your question if they're stitching out
Speaker 3: because it is not right. Yeah, But over time you
Speaker 3: realize that they actually care about their job, They care
Speaker 3: about trying to revealiitate you. So they must have chose
Speaker 3: a team of officers that were to grow there. And
Speaker 3: over time, when you work that out, so you gain
Speaker 3: that initial respect from the officer, that will go the
Speaker 3: way and over time you'll build a rapport. That doesn't
Speaker 3: mean that you go up and you sit down and
Speaker 3: you say, oh, how it's dinner last night.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're not best mates, but there's respect.
Speaker 3: But how are you today? I'm fine, you know, what's
Speaker 3: that you're carrying with a piece of artwork? I just
Speaker 3: did it here down here, and then you know, like
Speaker 3: I had officers by an artwork of me, you know,
Speaker 3: And I found my jail to be very easy. And
Speaker 3: everyone that works this out and then returns that it's
Speaker 3: only minimal respect. It's just common courtesy. How are you today?
Speaker 3: I'm well, thanks, how are you? You're not stepping outside
Speaker 3: the boundaries, it's going to put you in trouble. Through
Speaker 3: jail politics, there's always going to be someone that will say, oh,
Speaker 3: this guy was too friendly. Yeah, but it's usually them
Speaker 3: trying to cover up something that they've done somewhere, you know,
Speaker 3: the old deflectioning trick. Like not many inmates are smart,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean, Like, there's not many. And
Speaker 3: from that point there, when that's shown in the first place,
Speaker 3: then it's given back and that it can grow. But
Speaker 3: it can't be expected from an inmate when he's been
Speaker 3: given nothing but shipped from this person in blue every
Speaker 3: single experience he's had.
Speaker 1: I'm hearing what you're saying. And so it's a slow
Speaker 1: process where the trust is built up and the respect
Speaker 1: is respect is gained, and.
Speaker 3: You've got someone that has has a lifetime of behaviors
Speaker 3: that he's trying to change, So that officers also needs
Speaker 3: to acknowledge that there is going to be error and
Speaker 3: not write that person off of that error, but allow
Speaker 3: that person to change. As long as he hasn't across
Speaker 3: the lines, that doesn't permit him to stay at that
Speaker 3: correctional center.
Speaker 1: Well, look, I've got to say from I was surprised
Speaker 1: by the officers that I got to deal with, and
Speaker 1: just a cross section of them. They were genuinely invested
Speaker 1: in what they were doing. Yeah, yeah, part of it
Speaker 1: is self serving. They said, our job is so much
Speaker 1: easier here if we go across to Wellington. We're dealing
Speaker 1: with all this shit and trouble that happens in a
Speaker 1: more traditional jarl, and you come across here and there's
Speaker 1: less shit that goes down.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3: And there's some standouts, like obviously in every field of everything.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: So I've mentioned a fair few officers, but there's one
Speaker 3: that there's too. I want to mention one in particular
Speaker 3: that really drove so I implemented an NA program into Macquarie.
Speaker 2: Right now, this is pretty big because that's some statement.
Speaker 1: What did that involve.
Speaker 2: So if for the.
Speaker 3: Viewers, if they understand how NA works or AA works,
Speaker 3: it's the same sort of system. The only problem is
Speaker 3: that being in a jail environment, there's not much anonymous
Speaker 3: about it because they need to know who you are
Speaker 3: and where we are. But we were allowed to conduct ourselves. Now,
Speaker 3: at one point I had over ten percent of the
Speaker 3: jail in attendance voluntary. All right, that's pretty big numbers
Speaker 3: of boys that actually want to try and change get
Speaker 3: off the gear, yeap. But Elizabeth says, right, she was
Speaker 3: in our corner from day one, right, and the other
Speaker 3: officers that I did mention before, and they helped to
Speaker 3: drive this thing, and why I was. I'm pretty sure
Speaker 3: it's probably folded by now. I hope it hasn't because
Speaker 3: it was going to be a massive thing. But Elizabeth Sears,
Speaker 3: she really drove it and to a point where they
Speaker 3: tried to stop it. But there's been a massive response.
Speaker 3: So we've got boys that have been heroin addicts and
Speaker 3: full recovery.
Speaker 2: Now that's a good changing their lives. Mate.
Speaker 1: And you mentioned Liz Sears. I can speak about her.
Speaker 1: She sat where you're sitting. She came on as a
Speaker 1: guest here, and actually she opened eyes to a lot
Speaker 1: of things about what's going on in the prisons and
Speaker 1: different ways of doing it. Because I was looking, okay,
Speaker 1: well you've done the crime, you do the time, didn't
Speaker 1: really think much much about it. A couple of blokes
Speaker 1: that have been in have sort of said to me,
Speaker 1: will you treat this like animals? We're going to come
Speaker 1: out behaving like animals. But what Liz explained what they
Speaker 1: were doing at Macquarie, it just sort of blew me away.
Speaker 1: It made so much sense.
Speaker 2: That's right.
Speaker 3: So I want to make it clear about my positioning
Speaker 3: coming on here today. I want people to understand about
Speaker 3: people that have committed crimes. Fair Enough, they need to
Speaker 3: be punished for their crimes, but if they want to
Speaker 3: change their ways, they don't need to drag that round
Speaker 3: with the rest for the rest of their lives, right,
Speaker 3: weighing them down and forcing them into a corner and
Speaker 3: given an option to rehabilitate and grow. Right if the
Speaker 3: public knows this and supports this system. Just for example,
Speaker 3: I'm not going to mention any names, Robert, but I
Speaker 3: was in that jail and quarry with some heavy hitters.
Speaker 2: Mate.
Speaker 3: I'm talking on these streets of Sydney and they're big hitters. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: very very big hitters, and they're doing the same thing.
Speaker 3: They're better in their lives. They're getting away from the rubbish.
Speaker 3: They want to come out and have a fresh start.
Speaker 3: They want the best for their kids, they want the
Speaker 3: best for their grandkids. They've been given an opportunity and
Speaker 3: they're taking it and they're using it and they need
Speaker 3: to be respected for it.
Speaker 2: And when they come.
Speaker 3: Out into the community and they have a go and
Speaker 3: they're trying to do the right thing, they need to
Speaker 3: be given them doors. They need to be shown that
Speaker 3: they can use what they've done to go and do
Speaker 3: better and do more. And these guys are really trying.
Speaker 3: So if the public knows that this system is available, Like,
Speaker 3: let's not forget that we're based that we're built on
Speaker 3: a background of convicts. We're always going to have a
Speaker 3: jail system. But if we can rehabilitate inmates, especially ones
Speaker 3: that have been through the ropes, they can come back
Speaker 3: out and they can be someone to these young people
Speaker 3: out here.
Speaker 1: You know, well, I know some of the people that
Speaker 1: you're talking about. And in the time I spent there,
Speaker 1: I got to speak to them, and yeah, I was
Speaker 1: surprised that I was even speaking to them, And yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm not naive, but I thought it was genuine in
Speaker 1: what they were saying, instead of you leave me in
Speaker 1: this other system. I was angry, but I've seen here.
Speaker 1: What the fuck? Why have I wasted my life? I
Speaker 1: want to turn my life around. Then they to me,
Speaker 1: they seem genuine and I'm not naive. That was, of
Speaker 1: course I understood. But the other thing the prison does,
Speaker 1: and this is my and I've had a couple laughs
Speaker 1: because the humor is still there, and a couple of
Speaker 1: laughs at my expense.
Speaker 2: Of of course, you got to expect that.
Speaker 1: Were you one of the people yelling out there, let
Speaker 1: that go. But there was a couple of funny, funny
Speaker 1: and weird comments. But anyway, as you expect walking through prison.
Speaker 1: But they said, in those dorms, living in the dorms,
Speaker 1: where you're picturing an area probably I don't know, three
Speaker 1: sizes of size of a tennis court for twenty five
Speaker 1: twenty five people. There a courtyard out the back where
Speaker 1: there's some gym equipment. You get to stay out there
Speaker 1: till nine o'clock. If you need to stay out and
Speaker 1: some of the inmates are saying, this is the first
Speaker 1: time I've been able to see stars for years, because
Speaker 1: they can sit out there, lockdowns at nine o'clock when
Speaker 1: they have to come in. You're cooking out there, you
Speaker 1: train there. The toilets are set up, not for bashings.
Speaker 1: It's a single booth thing shower and toilet, and people
Speaker 1: are assigned to it. Kitchen that barbecue out the back.
Speaker 1: Noweople might say, well, that's too much luxury for it
Speaker 1: with the crimes that they've done. Of course, what blew
Speaker 1: me away was the fact that if there's twenty five
Speaker 1: ore there and one's being a dickhead, instead of the
Speaker 1: usual jail justice where he would have been bashed or
Speaker 1: shived or or whatever and dealt with, you get a
Speaker 1: group sit there and negotiate through and go, look, we
Speaker 1: can't put up with this type of behavior. Then you
Speaker 1: actually vote them out of the pot if they're causing
Speaker 1: too much problems. That's negotiation skills. That's the type of
Speaker 1: skills you need for society. Those little things were the
Speaker 1: type of things that I took away from it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, definitely. So this is a perfect time just
Speaker 3: for me to clarify when I told the boys not
Speaker 3: to talk to you. Yep, So little did you know
Speaker 3: at that time that I actually had plans to come
Speaker 3: out here and talk to you, to try and to
Speaker 3: push this and I want to eventually try and help
Speaker 3: young people that are going into gangs. And but beside
Speaker 3: that point, most people in a jail in environment can't
Speaker 3: handle themselves. So essentially in that environment where lorified babysitters now.
Speaker 1: As in the people that can handle themselves look after
Speaker 1: the people that can't handle themselves.
Speaker 2: That's correct.
Speaker 3: Now, in another jailed environment, we wouldn't be doing that
Speaker 3: so much because there's no benefit for us to do that.
Speaker 3: It's only going to make us week to align with
Speaker 3: someone this week. In that environment, we're keeping the peace,
Speaker 3: were making sure things are working and things are flowing. Now,
Speaker 3: these eyes if they had to come in and thought
Speaker 3: that it was a good idea to talk to you,
Speaker 3: and then they were on a truck tomorrow in the
Speaker 3: silver water, and then they got the silver bar and
Speaker 3: they said, talking to Gary Jubilin, he'd be walking out
Speaker 3: of him. He'd be walking out like a dartboard, you
Speaker 3: know what I mean. So that was the reason that
Speaker 3: I did that then, so they had nothing to do
Speaker 3: with people not talking to you. So the voice that
Speaker 3: did talk to you have enough respect and enough weight
Speaker 3: within the jail system that they can justify what they did.
Speaker 3: They didn't do anything wrong. The discussion that with you
Speaker 3: wasn't anything that couldn't be discuss but there was all
Speaker 3: there was also aside to it, and the jail benefit
Speaker 3: from them speaking to you too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I look at it was a difficult thing and
Speaker 1: I had no idea what would go on, and that
Speaker 1: worried me because corrective services had no idea. When I
Speaker 1: said what's going to happen, they said, we have no
Speaker 1: fucking idea when you walk in. But yeah, with the
Speaker 1: benefit of hindsight, walking in the pod was probably unannounced.
Speaker 1: And that's why I think, then may it be known
Speaker 1: what I was doing there and speaking to the people
Speaker 1: and what you've said too. I was conscious of that
Speaker 1: because I know I'm going in, but I get to
Speaker 1: get to leave and some of the some of the
Speaker 1: blokes that were naive and talking to me, I'm thinking,
Speaker 1: this is not a good look. The heaviest, the people
Speaker 1: that I would identify as the ones that can hold
Speaker 1: their own felt more than comfortable talking talking to them
Speaker 1: because I knew it's not going to come back on them.
Speaker 1: There was a few people, so I understand what you're saying.
Speaker 1: And even that incident we're talking about where you were
Speaker 1: telling them not to pull back, and it was fairly
Speaker 1: obvious that I wasn't well liked in there, but I
Speaker 1: was worried about a couple of people that were thinking
Speaker 1: what the fuck is going to happen after I walk out?
Speaker 1: We're talking, So I respect it and my mistake there,
Speaker 1: that's that's your home, and I've just walked in there,
Speaker 1: walking around in the at the gym and the oval whatever,
Speaker 1: that wasn't as bad, but that was walking walking in
Speaker 1: your home. So didn't make that mistake again.
Speaker 2: No, but I think I think it was a good
Speaker 2: thing that you did.
Speaker 3: I mean, obviously say you've had both sides, yeah, I
Speaker 3: mean I remember hearing one of the boys real about
Speaker 3: you so saying that you're a copper. But now you've
Speaker 3: been charged and you want to jump on our side
Speaker 3: now and you want to do this right?
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Now, we're human beings. We adapt. Why do you think
Speaker 2: that we can go into a yard like the yard at.
Speaker 3: Golden and survive. Yeah, why do you think our grandfathers
Speaker 3: went to war and slept in trenches for the blood.
Speaker 2: We're humans.
Speaker 3: We adapt to every situation. You had to do with that,
Speaker 3: So you were that, but you're doing good with what
Speaker 3: you took from that. So back in position, I don't
Speaker 3: think you had the opportunity to see outside because you're
Speaker 3: a police officer.
Speaker 1: Well that's and yeah, I own this. And my thing
Speaker 1: was I used to lock people up, get given another case,
Speaker 1: and then follow that case, and then I wasn't thinking
Speaker 1: what happened behind the behind the yard, behind the gates.
Speaker 1: But no, I think it was an interesting, interesting experience.
Speaker 1: And I also went into Wellington and the attitude was
Speaker 1: there was completely different. When I'm walking around there. Well,
Speaker 1: still the comments, but a little bit more intense when
Speaker 1: I was in there.
Speaker 2: But yeah, so you can understand why though, Oh it's
Speaker 2: a different.
Speaker 3: So so those boys, those boys have to make comments,
Speaker 3: you get me, they see you walk past, they're in
Speaker 3: a yard, they're in a stand up yard. They have
Speaker 3: to go a coup of dog, keep walking, Yeah, because
Speaker 3: if they don't, it's I don't turn around and go
Speaker 3: what are your fucking copper? And then the rest of
Speaker 3: the boys hear it and we're talking about some weak minds.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know that it could set off.
Speaker 2: It'll swell until it happens.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I wasn't sure how long did it go
Speaker 1: on because I know there was a bit of turmoil
Speaker 1: when I first came into Macquarie and yeah, I don't
Speaker 1: want to cause the dramas here, but yeah, it worked
Speaker 1: out and I think it was worthwhile for everyone. And
Speaker 1: I got it, got a got a message out. But
Speaker 1: it opened my eyes, it really did. And another thing
Speaker 1: because I'm thinking, have I had the warl pool out
Speaker 1: of my eyes after spending time with you guys for
Speaker 1: so long? But I spoke to a person who'd lost
Speaker 1: his son in a murder and he made he made
Speaker 1: the point Ken Marslow, it was a bad, bad, one
Speaker 1: armed robbery where his nine year old son was shopped
Speaker 1: during robbery a pizza hut and no need for it.
Speaker 1: But I said that, Ken, Ken, am I missing the
Speaker 1: point here? Have I gone soft? Like I'm thinking what
Speaker 1: they're doing here in this prison is definitely worthwhile? And
Speaker 1: he said it's about getting smart on crime, Like these
Speaker 1: people are going to go out, do we want them skills?
Speaker 1: To go out. So if they go out and don't
Speaker 1: commit further crime, there's less victims. So no, you're not
Speaker 1: going soften. Yeah, that was from a victim's point of
Speaker 1: view that I wanted to get. So I've been championing
Speaker 1: what they're doing in there wherever I can, and I'm
Speaker 1: not naive, And even you guys, the inmates in there,
Speaker 1: would say this isn't going to work for everyone, Like
Speaker 1: there's that ten percent that you're not going to change.
Speaker 3: That holds relevance to everyone. Yeah, right, And it depends
Speaker 3: where everyone's at in their time. Some people, there's some
Speaker 3: prisoners that can't adapt, they can't change. Yeah, right, jail's easy.
Speaker 3: Like if you get like, people might spin out when
Speaker 3: I say that. But for me, even in a jail
Speaker 3: where anything can happen, that's that's your only Can you
Speaker 3: focus on that all day all night and it might
Speaker 3: get more volatile and more twisted up and everything, but
Speaker 3: that's what you're doing. Get up in the morning, get
Speaker 3: in the yard for so many and you come back
Speaker 3: in that's it quarry for me, Like, it was great
Speaker 3: because I got up and I got the able and
Speaker 3: do things. I was painting at a mad job, and
Speaker 3: I found that great. And then you come out into
Speaker 3: the real world and it's real.
Speaker 1: Well, one of the prisoners in there said, I was
Speaker 1: talking to him, and he's gone when I go home
Speaker 1: at night, and I'm thinking that, But that's how he
Speaker 1: was looking at the pot that's going home. But they
Speaker 1: had you studying for six hours a day, working for
Speaker 1: six hours a day, and given some freedoms. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: what difference did that make to you from going from
Speaker 1: the traditional tough yard in Goulburn too into an environment
Speaker 1: like that. How did that change?
Speaker 2: Listen?
Speaker 3: I was already wanting to change anyway, you know, like
Speaker 3: I was wanting to I was paying it all up
Speaker 3: and everything that I've lost, you know, Like I mean
Speaker 3: I had, like I had a beautiful little family and
Speaker 3: that and even though like I've still got my kids
Speaker 3: and like I love them to death, they love me too.
Speaker 3: And there's this massive time frame that I missed out
Speaker 3: on photos and at hung I can just stare at
Speaker 3: because I can remember that time. Like my daughter, My
Speaker 3: daughter's a little machine, you know, And I just look
Speaker 3: at this fight and sometimes it can just make me crumble,
Speaker 3: you know, because I can remember that, and I can
Speaker 3: remember how much I loved it, and it just hurts
Speaker 3: me to think that, you know, that I went that
Speaker 3: way still with that, So that's sort of what hurts
Speaker 3: me the most. But as far as that point when
Speaker 3: it comes time to change, mate, when I was hitting
Speaker 3: super Max and and after having that little dream that
Speaker 3: I told you about there and I just thought, what
Speaker 3: am I doing?
Speaker 2: Though?
Speaker 3: What am I going to do? Am I gonna? Am
Speaker 3: I going to go back out into a yard? And
Speaker 3: am I gonna? And this is what I do. I
Speaker 3: elevate myself to whatever it has to happen, you know,
Speaker 3: And sometimes I fake it to make it, but I
Speaker 3: get there and I don't even know what I'm capable
Speaker 3: of until until.
Speaker 2: It goes there. But I have that ability to adapt. Now.
Speaker 3: I knew that if I went back out into that yard,
Speaker 3: I was going to have to elevate more, or if
Speaker 3: I wanted to go and take the same traction no
Speaker 3: matter where I ended up, And I knew what that
Speaker 3: meant for me, and that was to guarantee the one
Speaker 3: of the two things that was going to happen to
Speaker 3: me before I went to jail. So that was time
Speaker 3: to change, you know. But to change, I had to
Speaker 3: heal too, and that's where this art come into it.
Speaker 1: Okay, so with the art, and we spoke earlier on
Speaker 1: about it, but that's given you something to channel your energy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Like I'm a big believery ying and Yang. You've got
Speaker 1: the hard side, You've got the soft side is this
Speaker 1: You're channeling the soft energy into India paintings.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: Like with this is like, I have trouble expressing my emotions.
Speaker 3: So and I'm either here or I'm there, and like
Speaker 3: and depending on the emotions depends on the way that
Speaker 3: I'm going to hold myself. Right if a tear comes
Speaker 3: to my eyes as a dangerous situation because I feel
Speaker 3: like someone will said that tear and and think I'm weak,
Speaker 3: So I'll elevate to a situation where it'll probably take
Speaker 3: someone special to stand there, you know. And I hate
Speaker 3: that and I hate that person and it made me sick.
Speaker 3: You know, I didn't like that person. I knew I
Speaker 3: didn't like that person, and I thought, who, how can
Speaker 3: anyone love me or like me if I don't like
Speaker 3: this person? And that's where this come into it. So
Speaker 3: I got to express my emotions with having to let
Speaker 3: it out. I just grab a paint brush as I
Speaker 3: start slapping around. The only thing I did do was
Speaker 3: I helped myself back. Was I was too neat when
Speaker 3: I was learning. If I really wanted to let my
Speaker 3: emotions go, I should have just frown that brush around,
Speaker 3: you know, Like I know like I'm doing now, And
Speaker 3: it's the best way to deliver a message that you
Speaker 3: want to get out or to relieve yourself or something.
Speaker 3: And color can do Color can do this. So color
Speaker 3: has an association in our brain that allows us to
Speaker 3: either feel a certain way when we see a color
Speaker 3: or react a certain way. And I've really embraced it.
Speaker 1: I can see how you're talking now, the comness that
Speaker 1: comes across with you. You're talking talking about your art.
Speaker 1: So is that striving to make a living from your art?
Speaker 1: Is that what you're doing?
Speaker 2: I would love to make a living from my art.
Speaker 3: So, like I told you that, I've been studying and everything,
Speaker 3: and I would love to get into juvenile corrections.
Speaker 1: Okay, tell us that we've had a chat, but it
Speaker 1: wasn't on Mike, tell us about what you're studying and
Speaker 1: what you're doing there.
Speaker 3: Okay, So funny story. Me and an old enemy from
Speaker 3: a different gang. We did a search for a youth
Speaker 3: work together at the.
Speaker 1: Jail, right, okay, so they.
Speaker 2: Used to hear it. Well, they used to use me
Speaker 2: every time a new gangman would come.
Speaker 3: They come, they get me to go down and talk
Speaker 3: to them to try and explain the why the jail
Speaker 3: is anyway, So the day I had to go down
Speaker 3: and speak with this lad, we end up becoming so close.
Speaker 3: It's like and I got a lot of love for him,
Speaker 3: you know. But back on the streets and Mount Drew,
Speaker 3: it thinks she used to be very dif print, you know. Anyways,
Speaker 3: we need to search for a youth work together through correspondence,
Speaker 3: and it was something that was I guess they had
Speaker 3: to get the bricks and mortar out to make it happen. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: that makes.
Speaker 1: Sense, Yeah, to let you you guys do that.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And so then there was a big outcry over in
Speaker 3: the jail about people everyone want to do.
Speaker 2: To do it as well, but they weren't allowed to.
Speaker 3: And it was like, well, well you've got to be
Speaker 3: a gang member or you know, they're not meant to
Speaker 3: be here.
Speaker 2: That's you get me, right.
Speaker 1: So there was this is politics of a different, different
Speaker 1: level in the well.
Speaker 2: I guess this is where politics collide.
Speaker 1: Okay, so they're giving you guys because you've been so
Speaker 1: bad and your gang members and you shouldn't be in here,
Speaker 1: but you're allowed to do it. Why aren't we allowed
Speaker 1: to do it?
Speaker 3: But they had a reason for it, Yeah, and they
Speaker 3: and it was paving the way for them in a
Speaker 3: jailed environment. Fast thinking people don't get to absorb this
Speaker 3: information and sort of try and take a back to
Speaker 3: have a.
Speaker 2: Look at the big picture.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it had to be done first, trying to
Speaker 3: get something over the line to give inmates. It's a
Speaker 3: dead end. Yeah, So it's a hard slog.
Speaker 1: And why do you say that it's a dead end.
Speaker 3: Or well, you're talking about saying an inmate that's got
Speaker 3: in charge for a double murder. Yeah, right, and now
Speaker 3: he's asking for funding, not just any funding, he's asking
Speaker 3: for ten or twenty grand. Why he's the inmate to
Speaker 3: study so one on the clock back no way in
Speaker 3: the world.
Speaker 1: Well that's the public. When I say the public, there's
Speaker 1: a view of public view that why are we rewarding
Speaker 1: people for going to prison? And that's the type of
Speaker 1: pushback as well. Do it And yeah, understandable counter argument
Speaker 1: to that is it, well, if I look at it
Speaker 1: this way, let people study when they're in prison, because
Speaker 1: if they come out and that stears them in the
Speaker 1: right direction fiscally. From a monetary point of view, the
Speaker 1: money you've spent on getting someone in education if they
Speaker 1: don't reoffend, is money well spent because the amount of costs.
Speaker 1: I forget the figures. It's I'm throwing this out there.
Speaker 1: Could be completely wrong, but just from a memory, it's
Speaker 1: like one hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year to
Speaker 1: house one.
Speaker 3: From memory, I think it's a one hundred and seventy
Speaker 3: one or one hundred and sixty one thousand a year.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3: And then on top of that, basically every time INMKE
Speaker 3: it's on a truck it's like eleven hundred dollars or
Speaker 3: something that's a revolving doal.
Speaker 1: And the police and the impact it has on victims
Speaker 1: and the victims of crime. So to me putting money
Speaker 1: in to help educate people, I don't think it's soft,
Speaker 1: as ken Marzo said, It's not getting soft, it's getting
Speaker 1: smart on crime.
Speaker 2: That's right.
Speaker 3: So now inside mcquarie Correctional Center, Yeah, they run a
Speaker 3: traineeship which is essentially a diploma but workplace engagement. So
Speaker 3: the guys get to go down with the Zappos and
Speaker 3: do their work hours. So while they're inmates, they're actually
Speaker 3: getting out with a diploma work qualified to go and
Speaker 3: do work in the community services field. So now it's
Speaker 3: now it's implemented into the jail system.
Speaker 1: To me, it make sense. The trick is where you
Speaker 1: go from that jail system, and you were talking about it,
Speaker 1: you were scared of getting out of jail than you
Speaker 1: were going into jail. Talk us through that, because I
Speaker 1: don't think people realize how terrifying it can be when
Speaker 1: you're used to an environment and all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: I've been released into the world.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So yeah, so it's really tough. I guess, Like.
Speaker 3: I guess, if you want people to succeed in life,
Speaker 3: you have to you have to take a chance on
Speaker 3: them anyway, you know, Like I think some of the
Speaker 3: hardest things for people to get their head around. And
Speaker 3: you see someone that's been broadcasted over the news, and
Speaker 3: let's face it, they have to sell papers, right, So
Speaker 3: this so let's just say in a for example, Now
Speaker 3: say for instance, the news get a hold of this
Speaker 3: guy going in to do one two free, but the
Speaker 3: papers have said one two free back then, and so
Speaker 3: there's a massive like a confliction.
Speaker 2: People are like, but hang on, why would you like that?
Speaker 2: Could I do that? When he done this.
Speaker 1: Out you've got the headlines.
Speaker 3: But see then these guys go and do this, and
Speaker 3: they're given that opportunity to go. Do you know how
Speaker 3: many people that have left Macquarie for Extiononal Center and
Speaker 3: have succeeding. They're actually succeeding. So by me coming on
Speaker 3: here and talking is to get that message across. So
Speaker 3: right now, I'm still doing a diploma. I applied for
Speaker 3: my working with children checked while I was still in Cussy.
Speaker 3: They got knocked back. Right, I don't have any domestic
Speaker 3: violence crimes. I've never like all my crimes and they
Speaker 3: are all club related. I'm not excusing any of it.
Speaker 3: Not my crimes are my crimes. Now for the public
Speaker 3: to then be able to accept someone, this is why
Speaker 3: we touched on why people go into dark places and
Speaker 3: why things happen. So I'm not excusing my behavior, but
Speaker 3: I have told you there's a reason that my behavior
Speaker 3: did go down this avenue and now I want to
Speaker 3: take everything that I've learned and I want to take
Speaker 3: it back out.
Speaker 2: And I want to help and I want to have
Speaker 2: an impact.
Speaker 3: I want to go into juvenile corrections where there's all
Speaker 3: these young guys I might not get through to. If
Speaker 3: I can get through to one, you think about that family.
Speaker 3: You think about that mother and father. How grateful love
Speaker 3: we to get their kid back. I just done time
Speaker 3: with eighteen year old kids that are doing murder whacks
Speaker 3: for this postcode bullshit.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: I don't even know what well they're in. They're just
Speaker 3: running around. They're listen these gangster wrap. They see all
Speaker 3: this that like, they see the way that we conduct
Speaker 3: ourselves and that when we're out and gangs and that
Speaker 3: sort of thing, and they think it's great and that's
Speaker 3: what they want to be. But they don't know what
Speaker 3: it is right until it's too late, until they've torn
Speaker 3: their family apart, until they've ruined their lives, and when
Speaker 3: they do realize what they've done wrong, they got to
Speaker 3: live with that.
Speaker 2: It might be easy.
Speaker 3: Then, it might be easy when you've got the boys
Speaker 3: there with you, when you're on the drugs, when you're
Speaker 3: doing this, when you're doing that. But when you get
Speaker 3: back to being you, when you look and you're looking
Speaker 3: at yourself in the mirror and you're wondering who you
Speaker 3: are and you're wondering why you know or for something
Speaker 3: so stupid. If I can get into t all these people,
Speaker 3: it's not what you think is. Outside looking in is
Speaker 3: much better than inside looking out.
Speaker 2: I can assure.
Speaker 1: You well, like with what they have at Macquarie, which
Speaker 1: is good for where you got to that, but obviously
Speaker 1: the ideal way would be preventing people going in there
Speaker 1: and those get those young fellas and I bang on
Speaker 1: about it here on the podcast, but people who have
Speaker 1: got that lived experience carry more weight with the kids
Speaker 1: that are going off.
Speaker 2: That's right.
Speaker 1: If you've got let's call a young punk going I'm
Speaker 1: going to be this, I'm going to be that. I'm
Speaker 1: going to be everything you were a biking this and that,
Speaker 1: and you can sit them down and go mate, I
Speaker 1: went down this path and this is what happened to me.
Speaker 1: I'm telling you exactly. There's other paths that you can take.
Speaker 1: There's no glory in.
Speaker 3: It and depending on and my guess is that a
Speaker 3: lot of these people are probably dealing with something that
Speaker 3: I was dealing with being identity issues too, and it's
Speaker 3: just natural part of growing up. I just think that
Speaker 3: there's it's just a different way, and I think we can.
Speaker 3: I think that we can try and do more, do
Speaker 3: more to prevent it. All we're doing is making the
Speaker 3: work harder for the police. We're making it hard for
Speaker 3: the families to get on and live. Like, do you
Speaker 3: think about these what are the kids that I told
Speaker 3: you about that I was doing time with. Now there's
Speaker 3: a reason that that they murdered whoever it was, and
Speaker 3: it's not because they were a good person. But what
Speaker 3: about that person's family that just lost their son because
Speaker 3: he had some kind of idea that got into his
Speaker 3: head three months ago and he thought it was this
Speaker 3: and that.
Speaker 1: Look, I've seen the chaos that surrounds. Yeah, one person
Speaker 1: being murdered or severely severely injured, the family of the
Speaker 1: victim obviously, and the friends of the victim.
Speaker 3: You're multiple people, well you know, more than maybe that
Speaker 3: I don't know, you know.
Speaker 1: And then the offender's family. Yeah, that might be your parents.
Speaker 1: I'm sure that. Yeah, if you did something that they're
Speaker 1: just gone. Oh no, something that would have kept you
Speaker 1: in jail for life, which there was always always a
Speaker 1: chance with the life that you were living. Yeah, their
Speaker 1: lives are destroyed, your kids' lives. Like yeah, there's so
Speaker 1: many same many things earth.
Speaker 3: And also but also too, like I told, I come
Speaker 3: from a beautiful family. I come from a very strong family.
Speaker 3: I kept myself separated from that, not entirely, but for
Speaker 3: a veryvery long time because there are for the reasons
Speaker 3: to do, and also with what was going on, and
Speaker 3: like years and years ago, there was a pretty wild
Speaker 3: incident that come to mom and Dad's house where we
Speaker 3: used to live, and you know, I promised myself that
Speaker 3: that would never happen again. But now I'm back with them,
Speaker 3: and it's great, and these things are really good.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm so grateful for the second chance, the second
Speaker 3: opportunity that I'm not going to say that I was
Speaker 3: given because I gave it to myself. I did it myself,
Speaker 3: you know, like the odds were on for me not
Speaker 3: to succeed, and I proved so many people wrong. And
Speaker 3: there's so many people that I'm grateful for the experience
Speaker 3: that and I'm still experiencing it. Like I said, I
Speaker 3: don't quite know who I am.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well you know how long you've been out for
Speaker 1: eight months? Okay, so it's all new to you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so feeling feeling your way?
Speaker 2: Yeah. So.
Speaker 3: But for like, I'm doing a lot of social media
Speaker 3: stuff around my art and that Now.
Speaker 1: Where can people find find your art?
Speaker 2: Okay?
Speaker 3: So on TikTok at at see the Art crim so
Speaker 3: actually so a T s Y. That's my art signature.
Speaker 3: For obviously promotional reasons to do with it. I called
Speaker 3: myself at See the Art crim Okay. Now, part of
Speaker 3: it is going to be for me to be able
Speaker 3: to maybe influence other people to get involved with art
Speaker 3: if they've been through drama or other sorts of things.
Speaker 3: And obviously I want to showcase my work. So I've
Speaker 3: been going live each night at eight o'clock, which is
Speaker 3: a bit weird because I don't understand how TikTok works.
Speaker 3: I've got mate, I've got people coming up on the
Speaker 3: screen and doing these battle things, and I'm just sitting
Speaker 3: there smiling and talking.
Speaker 2: I've got no idea what's going on?
Speaker 1: Good luck? Be careful, yeah, get your kids to tell
Speaker 1: you what to do. Yeah, they know my kids take
Speaker 1: my phone off me. No, Yeah, just don't do that.
Speaker 2: That's crazy.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Look, it is a new medium and it's a
Speaker 1: way to get messages out and get your art out there.
Speaker 1: But if that's an example of your work, you could
Speaker 1: have told me that was a fader.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I can't believe the detail that you put in. How
Speaker 1: long did it take you to paint that?
Speaker 3: Okay, so that didn't take me very long. I already
Speaker 3: painted it before, so I kind of knew where I
Speaker 3: was going. And it's monochromatic, so it's in black and white,
Speaker 3: so it takes that color element.
Speaker 2: Out of it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so it probably only took me around ten hours.
Speaker 3: If I were to produced the same thing in color,
Speaker 3: it would probably take me probably around forty hours.
Speaker 1: Made me a bit longer, you know, Jesus, there's a
Speaker 1: real talent there. Is it all your type of art?
Speaker 1: Is it all portraits or no? No?
Speaker 2: So I do. I haven't really found my style.
Speaker 3: I just love painting, so I do landscapes, animals more
Speaker 3: Like I said, that's a realism painting. So I painted
Speaker 3: one of two pac which is not so much realism.
Speaker 3: But I guess more I don't really know all the
Speaker 3: all the words that go with it, but more expression
Speaker 3: is them or something like that, I guess, But I
Speaker 3: just like to paint, so I don't really restrict myself.
Speaker 1: How many hours you spending the week painting.
Speaker 3: Funny enough, over the last two weeks with trying to
Speaker 3: work out this social I haven't actually I haven't actually
Speaker 3: got too much time up on the paintbrush. But I
Speaker 3: promised myself because of all that that I'll put in
Speaker 3: a lot more. But I like to spend, you know,
Speaker 3: a few hours every night painting.
Speaker 1: Here. Your family pleased with the person that ye walked
Speaker 1: out the gates?
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely, yeah, they and you know what, like I'm
Speaker 3: in they used to come and visit me and like
Speaker 3: I'd get a lot of wrap from the offices like
Speaker 3: on their way in, and also inmates to my parents
Speaker 3: and everything. I guess, you know, for what it was,
Speaker 3: they had to find some way to find a way
Speaker 3: to be proud of you.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: Well, when I was talking to you on the phone
Speaker 1: the other other day, I heard your mum in the back. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she sounds like a bit of a character.
Speaker 2: She's a character, all right, Yeah, she's the best man.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I appreciate you coming on here, and we
Speaker 1: both talked about the messaging that we wanted to get across,
Speaker 1: and that was very much about a different way of
Speaker 1: doing the prison system. Yeah, but yeah, we this podcast.
Speaker 1: We'd love stories of redemption and turning your life around.
Speaker 1: And yeah, I think full credit to you, and I
Speaker 1: genuinely mean this. So I hope, because it's not long
Speaker 1: that you've been out, I hope you can stay on
Speaker 1: the stay on the journey. Yeah, and yeah, enjoy your life.
Speaker 1: It's better on the outside percent.
Speaker 3: I just want to say too, So if any inmates,
Speaker 3: for anyone, if they're getting out and they're struggling, you
Speaker 3: can you can send me a message on or TikTok
Speaker 3: whatever and I'll do whatever I can to help you.
Speaker 3: If you need some advice or someone to talk to her.
Speaker 1: I think that's a good idea. Again, someone someone that's experienced.
Speaker 1: And yeah, I've spoken to people without giving up names
Speaker 1: that have known you and said that you're hitting in
Speaker 1: the right direction.
Speaker 3: So yeah, it's been good and I've had the support
Speaker 3: to go with it, and it's kind OF's a good feeling.
Speaker 2: I guess.
Speaker 3: To get that support, I had to prove myself too,
Speaker 3: So you know, I didn't just come from nowhere. So well, sorry,
Speaker 3: there's one that I just want to please, a bit
Speaker 3: of a carne. She's left the corrections now, but she
Speaker 3: used to go above and beyond for the boys as well.
Speaker 1: So now again, these are people who are making making
Speaker 1: the difference, like a good corrective services officer if they're
Speaker 1: just helping one person in there, yeah great, and yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm sure wind it back. I don't know, six years
Speaker 1: ago when you first started in super Max, I didn't think.
Speaker 1: I don't think you would have been thinking I'm going
Speaker 1: to sit here with a detective inspector from a gang
Speaker 1: squad talking about corrective services officers that are.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, been great to be I appreciate it.
Speaker 1: No, I appreciate your making the effort. So all the
Speaker 1: best for the future.
Speaker 2: Thank you. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1: And just add if people want to find out more
Speaker 1: about what went on in the Quarie Correctional Center of
Speaker 1: the podcast episode Breaking Badness, it goes in the great
Speaker 1: detail the type of thing that Adam has been talking
Speaker 1: about and really give you a sense of what goes
Speaker 1: on in that prison.
Speaker 2: All right, thank you, Thanks you guys,