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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average person is

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Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my chat with former

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Speaker 1: bikey and maximum security in Adam Smith. In part one,

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Speaker 1: we spoke about his early life, how I met him

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Speaker 1: in prison, his time as a senior member of an

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Speaker 1: outlaw motorcycle gang, and he's experiences in gold and supermax prison.

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Speaker 1: In part two, we speak about how a change of

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Speaker 1: prisons changed his outlook on life and what he is

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Speaker 1: doing since he was released from prison last year. Adam Smith.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: How you doing good?

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Speaker 1: Good to have you back.

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Speaker 2: Be mate.

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Speaker 1: Speaking the other day, I said, what are you doing

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Speaker 1: with yourself? And you called yourself an artist. Yes, so

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Speaker 1: that's a that's a big jump from violent prisoner in

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Speaker 1: so violent that they had to be put in the

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Speaker 1: supermax in Golden what's the art that you're into? Tell

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Speaker 1: us about that?

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Speaker 2: So art? Was it come across?

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Speaker 3: I guess you could say in the supermax when I

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Speaker 3: finally got a pen and paper. I love to tell

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Speaker 3: the story that I learned to the art scribe and

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Speaker 3: my finger I was in the war, but that's not true.

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Speaker 3: I used to just sketch a little bit, just a

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Speaker 3: doodle and that sort of I guess that kind of

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Speaker 3: created something and then I didn't touch on it. But

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Speaker 3: when I went to Macquarie, it's some really good artists.

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Speaker 3: Like when I say really good, I mean really really

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Speaker 3: really good.

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Speaker 1: I've been to that the center there in the prison. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there are some great pieces of art.

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Speaker 3: So I spent a lot of time with I guess,

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Speaker 3: two of the best artists, but not associating around art.

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Speaker 3: We live together in a pod, you know. Yeah, Now

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Speaker 3: these two guys in particular, they could have gone through

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Speaker 3: and entered into the Archer bulb. They actually paved the

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Speaker 3: way sort of for art programs, I guess, in the

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Speaker 3: jail system. One of them in particular, who you met,

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Speaker 3: Bruce Harrison. Things happened in jail, and they're out of

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Speaker 3: people's control. He was destined to go and do the

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Speaker 3: last of his sentence teaching an art program. I think

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Speaker 3: it might have been at Long Bay, but that changed.

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Speaker 3: But I had the, I guess, fortunate luck of being

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Speaker 3: able to watch these guys paint every day. I was

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Speaker 3: convinced to start.

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Speaker 2: Well.

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Speaker 3: First of all, I was convinced to try and join

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Speaker 3: their art class. But I still had so much cork.

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Speaker 3: My cork ran for over four years, you know. And

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Speaker 3: when I started drawing, they were decent drawings. When I

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Speaker 3: look back on them, they're not so decent, but at

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Speaker 3: the time that yeah. And when I showed when I

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Speaker 3: showed them, it was like, well, you should start painting.

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Speaker 1: Did you Did you have a natural aptitude for art?

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Speaker 1: Did you delve into it before you went to prison?

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Speaker 2: When I was younger, like, I was never really good

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Speaker 2: at it. My brother was very good at.

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Speaker 3: Doing graffiti, like we set up big boards out in

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Speaker 3: the backyard at mum and Dad's and little kids, and

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Speaker 3: it was never any good. But I never had a

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Speaker 3: thought about being an artist. But I played guitar when

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Speaker 3: I was younger, and I was pretty pretty good at

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Speaker 3: it too, and so I was always there was an

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Speaker 3: artistic I just didn't realize it was.

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Speaker 1: You hadn't developed it or it hadn't come.

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Speaker 2: Out, and I still don't know how I do it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well we'll talk about that. But we we left

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Speaker 1: you in part one. You're still in super Max and

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Speaker 1: now we're talking about your art. But I'm just going

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Speaker 1: to I can do this. I suppose it's of course,

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Speaker 1: of course it's a podcast, But have a look at

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Speaker 1: that drawing that you've done. I spotted it straight away

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Speaker 1: when I walk in. You bought it in It's Malcolm X.

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Speaker 2: Yeah likeness an oil painting of malcom X. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Well that's a good example of your art. So

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Speaker 1: we'll talk more about that. But I wanted to show people,

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Speaker 1: and if those that are listening that's showing, it doesn't

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Speaker 1: really help. But what we've got here is a portrait

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Speaker 1: that to me, it looked like a photograph of Malcolm X.

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Speaker 1: We'll talk about that a little bit later, but I just.

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Speaker 2: Thought i'd show people, Yeah, thank you.

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Speaker 1: Just before we get in the Macquarie I just want

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Speaker 1: to rehash, and I think we touched on it, that

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Speaker 1: super Max has been renovated and there was sixty prisoners

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Speaker 1: in super Max. Twenty had to get relocated and you

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Speaker 1: got relocated to Macquarie Correctional Center is up near Dabba.

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 1: Macquarie Correctional Center is a new way of handling prisons

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Speaker 1: and that was the reason that I was in prison

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Speaker 1: when out past First Cross to have a look at

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Speaker 1: the way that they're treating prisoners. It's completely different to

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Speaker 1: what I would call the traditional tell us about tell

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Speaker 1: us about what you found when you walked into there.

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Speaker 1: So you've gone from Golden the Yard in Golburen, which

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Speaker 1: was a pretty volatile place, lots of violence, lots of yeah,

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Speaker 1: lots of stuff went down there. You got kicked out

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Speaker 1: of there into Supermax and where you're living in a

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Speaker 1: cell on your own and very limited communication to be

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Speaker 1: dropped in Macquarie Center. Talk us through that whole process.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no worry, Jerry.

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Speaker 3: So so they just finished booting the MPU, which was

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Speaker 3: the whole segregation inmates. So that was forty beds that

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Speaker 3: they had in there. So, like I said, there were

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Speaker 3: sixty inmates, and so that twenty of us had to

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Speaker 3: go around the state into segregation. What they basically call it,

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Speaker 3: they call it rotation. So if you get either segregation

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Speaker 3: for a certain amount of time or something they call

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Speaker 3: seventy eight A, which is housing, which means they can't

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Speaker 3: house you for certain reasons, so you'll go onto a rotation.

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Speaker 3: So I landed at Macquarie. You only really meant to

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Speaker 3: stay at a certain location for a certain amount of time.

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Speaker 3: I don't know how or why, but I ended up staying.

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Speaker 3: I think I was well, I think I can't remember exactly,

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Speaker 3: but it was a few months. And I was never

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Speaker 3: meant to go up. I was never meant to go

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Speaker 3: out into the main. It wasn't for gang members. It

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Speaker 3: was meant to be for inmates that wanted to basically

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Speaker 3: toe the line and develop and rehabilitate, and they put

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Speaker 3: gang members off the table. Now, my experience with correctional

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Speaker 3: officers was pretty much all bad. There was a certain

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Speaker 3: level of I guess respect that I was given by

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Speaker 3: certain offices in different jails, but there was never ever

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Speaker 3: a level of being treated with respect, yeah, or given

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Speaker 3: your dignity mind that. So when I went to mcclarie,

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Speaker 3: I was obviously it was a big deal. So they

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Speaker 3: had all the squad and because it's on the same

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Speaker 3: property as Wellington Jail, which is very much similar to

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Speaker 3: Goldban or silver Water.

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Speaker 1: Or something in the traditional sense of a prison, and.

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Speaker 3: It's on the same property, so I'm assuming that they

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Speaker 3: must have had some of the squad from there as

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Speaker 3: we will come. And at the end of this time,

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Speaker 3: you can imagine what I've just been through. The first

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Speaker 3: thing that I asked when I got off the tracks,

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Speaker 3: so I get a TV? And they said yes, And

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Speaker 3: I sat down on the end of the bed for

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Speaker 3: about probably eight hours watching kids shows. I couldn't believe

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Speaker 3: my eyes, you.

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Speaker 1: Know, just to get some form of stimulation, fl.

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Speaker 3: Like I was free. That's how I felt, right. I

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Speaker 3: was still very unsure of my future in jail at

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Speaker 3: this point.

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Speaker 1: So how far into sixty sentence that you've served at this.

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Speaker 3: Stage, maybe about so close to a year, right, So

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Speaker 3: I still had no I still had no idea what

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Speaker 3: was happening with my court. I ended up fighting another

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Speaker 3: three trials after my After my court, they just kept

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Speaker 3: trying to get me and get me, but I beat

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Speaker 3: those trials. Brad Peebles, who's who was the governor of

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Speaker 3: mcclorie at the time. He went above and beyond to

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Speaker 3: give inmates an opportunity, and I think it probably could

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Speaker 3: have cost him his career in doing it if it

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Speaker 3: had gone wrong. It was only ever meant to be

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Speaker 3: an experiment. I don't know, did you know that?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I know initially there was. It was bored in

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Speaker 1: years ago and then then stopped and the Brad peoples

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Speaker 1: very much promoted it and pushed it. And it's not

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Speaker 1: this similar to like a Norwegian way of handling prisoners.

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Speaker 1: Just so our listeners understand what we're talking about here,

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Speaker 1: your maximum security prisoner, and yeah, max security prisoners are

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Speaker 1: praying to violence and you keep some tight control on them,

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Speaker 1: a lot of lockdowns, you spend a lot of time

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Speaker 1: in your cell super macs, you spend an extremely large

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Speaker 1: amount of time in your cell, and you're not allowed

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Speaker 1: to mix with other inmates. So you've gone from that

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Speaker 1: environment into what they had at Macquarie Correctional Center where

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Speaker 1: they had dorms with twenty five maximum security prisoners in there.

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Speaker 1: That's when when I walked into the dorm, I thought

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Speaker 1: that would be a bloodbath. They're having twenty five of

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Speaker 1: you all in there, just all locked away, access to

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Speaker 1: twenty five other other inmates. Yeah, but you tell the

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Speaker 1: story because I was observing, and how did you feel

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Speaker 1: when you were given that much, well, basically freedom within

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Speaker 1: a prison as much as a freedom that you get.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, definitely. There was no certainty of my stay

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Speaker 3: at Macquarie. I was online, I was told that it

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Speaker 3: was made very clear to me as soon as I

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Speaker 3: got there. Spending my time in supermax. This was massively

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Speaker 3: concerning because their segregation units at Macquarie, the way I

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Speaker 3: described it at the time, was an F one motel

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Speaker 3: room compared.

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Speaker 1: To what from what you came to from.

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Speaker 3: So you have your dignity, you have you have you

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Speaker 3: have room, you have a massive bench that you can

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Speaker 3: work on, you have toilet, chaw, it's all clean, the

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Speaker 3: same size as your little yard out the back. And

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Speaker 3: this is in segregation, and you're treated well when you're

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Speaker 3: down there as long as you respect, you give me

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Speaker 3: like so it's reciprocated.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so this is the segregation section we've been Macquarie

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Speaker 1: Correctional Center. What you described describing there, Yes, so distinct

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Speaker 1: from the dorms where the general population got.

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Speaker 3: That's exactly right. So obviously Brad Peebles to do what

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Speaker 3: he did, he had to have a great team. Now

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Speaker 3: I'm sure that team consisted of a lot more people

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Speaker 3: than I know of. Yeah, but he had Bywater, who

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Speaker 3: is a stand up guy who has a reputation too

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Speaker 3: for being a tough guy throughout his So he I

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Speaker 3: think he was a boss of a squad. And this

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Speaker 3: guy is an absolute gentleman. We'll have nothing but respect

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Speaker 3: for him and the way that he conducts himself as

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Speaker 3: an officer and the way that he treats inmates, hard

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Speaker 3: but fair. I'd say he had Brett Lee's and you

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Speaker 3: obviously met Brett Lee.

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Speaker 1: So he's a character.

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Speaker 2: Well he's a character so or.

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Speaker 3: Just so the viewers can understand, this is the guy

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Speaker 3: that went on to become the governor at the prison

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Speaker 3: after Brad Peebles, he had gone on to another project.

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Speaker 3: He's a psychologist and he runs with that every day. Okay, So,

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Speaker 3: although there's always a certain amount of humor around whatever's

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Speaker 3: coming out of his mouth, every word counts.

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Speaker 1: That's a fair assessment.

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Speaker 3: And he does that for a reason obviously, and there's

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Speaker 3: only very few people that can pick up on that.

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Speaker 3: So he's another one that has gone above and beyond

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Speaker 3: to try and do things for certain inmates. Myself definitely.

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Speaker 3: So with these guys in your corner, and then you

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Speaker 3: have the intel side, which is run by a couple

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Speaker 3: of officers.

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Speaker 2: So you've got.

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Speaker 3: Stanger Andrew Stinger, absolute absolute, dead set, stand up guy.

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Speaker 3: This guy is very very smart, very calculated, but very fair.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So these guys you can understand, they run the intel,

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Speaker 3: they can they know what's going on. Yeah, best intel

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Speaker 3: in Australia and jail is that Macquarie. And then you've

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Speaker 3: got standing there. Those two work together, but they maintain

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Speaker 3: the respect of the inmates. I guess that actually matter

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Speaker 3: to make him the system work.

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Speaker 2: You give me.

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Speaker 1: I'm taking on what you've what you're saying here, because

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Speaker 1: it's unusual for a prisoner to be talking about coreactive services.

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Speaker 1: Normally it's screws and the Blue and the Green don't

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Speaker 1: mix traditional prisons. What I saw at Quarry Centa was

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Speaker 1: that the respects went both ways. Yeah, and it wasn't

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Speaker 1: sort of false respect. That was the creative services officers

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Speaker 1: that I saw treated the prisoners with respect and the

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Speaker 1: prisoners were treating the creative services officers with respect. And

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Speaker 1: it was different to any jail I had been in,

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Speaker 1: and the whole vibe felt felt different.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So this, this creates a little bit of an issue

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Speaker 3: in the jail environment because then you have people that

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Speaker 3: want to be in this shale, but then they want

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Speaker 3: to make out like their mister gangster this that, and

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Speaker 3: they don't want to respect the officers, but they actually do,

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Speaker 3: but they just make out. So that creates a little

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Speaker 3: bit of a little bit of an issue. So you've

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Speaker 3: got to sort of put that aside and just do

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Speaker 3: your own thing, you know. Like I said, jail politics

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Speaker 3: are a funny thing. Always need to be able to

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Speaker 3: make sure that you can walk into a jail yard

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Speaker 3: somewhere because you might end up there.

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Speaker 1: Well, you said to me the other day that when

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Speaker 1: the prisoners that were talking to me were the ones

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Speaker 1: that could hold their head up and didn't need to

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Speaker 1: they weren't worried what other people thought. And I got

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Speaker 1: to say, there was some hard cases in there in

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Speaker 1: terms of if I look at I know their reputation,

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Speaker 1: I had dealings, I know what they've done and who

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Speaker 1: they are, and they'd stand up in any jail, yeah,

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Speaker 1: for sure. But in this jail their behavior was changed

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Speaker 1: and instead of bridging up, they were communicating and talking.

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Speaker 2: And problem solvers, you know. So there's a fair fuel

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Speaker 2: of that.

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Speaker 3: It would always have to go out to diffuse something

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Speaker 3: or just say, for instance, the jail started getting a

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Speaker 3: little bit violent, they'd call a lot of us down

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Speaker 3: to talk to us and say we need this to change.

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Speaker 3: So then we would say, well what can you do

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Speaker 3: for us? Like this is the way that we're working here,

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Speaker 3: we're working with each other.

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Speaker 2: So we saw a.

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Speaker 3: Barter it down, you know, and then we back and

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Speaker 3: we'd pull the pod in and say, well, this is

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Speaker 3: what's going to happen because the jarl needs to be

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Speaker 3: like this for the next few weeks, and there we'd

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Speaker 3: make it happen.

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Speaker 1: You know, how long did it take you to get

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Speaker 1: moved into a pod?

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Speaker 2: Okay?

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Speaker 3: So, like I said, I was never really gone, but

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Speaker 3: they kept coming in saying to me, or if you

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Speaker 3: want to sign your intel off, we'll let you stay here,

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Speaker 3: and I just thought it was a ja I thought

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Speaker 3: it was a stitch up. I thought I'd trying to

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Speaker 3: set me up to make it harder for me. Anyway,

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Speaker 3: I ended up doing this. At the time, I was

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Speaker 3: not leaving any club, and.

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Speaker 1: That was what we're talking here. You've got to sign

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Speaker 1: off any affiliation with the club because of gain coup

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Speaker 1: in Macquarie.

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Speaker 3: Center, so anyone that comes there has to do that

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Speaker 3: right now. CIG Central Intelligence Group, So for people like myself,

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Speaker 3: you're on their radar immediately anyway. So they're the ones

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Speaker 3: that are responsible for the function functioning of New South Wales.

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure if it's Asrail or that's New South Wales.

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Speaker 3: But they said to.

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Speaker 2: Me, you're a liar.

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Speaker 3: Why you're there, They said, basically brought people to take

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Speaker 3: a chance on you. Why you're there, that's fine, But

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Speaker 3: when you're fuck up your ours and you're gone straight

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Speaker 3: back to where you come from.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 3: So I had that in the back of my mind

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Speaker 3: the whole time, and then they just slowly integrated me

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Speaker 3: to the pod. They didn't just put me out the

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Speaker 3: vis let me out at times and integrate with people slowly.

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Speaker 1: But the way you describe it, Adam, it's like releasing

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Speaker 1: the line back in.

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Speaker 2: The Yeah, and it completely wasn't the case, you know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but that's they let you in, they test Okay,

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Speaker 1: you spent a half an hour in there, there was

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Speaker 1: no trouble, come back out, okay. So that process how long?

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Speaker 1: How long did it take.

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Speaker 2: That process?

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Speaker 3: I guess it probably lasted around two to three weeks,

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Speaker 3: And right up until the point when I walked into

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Speaker 3: the pod with my trolling, I still didn't believe it.

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Speaker 1: You know, you didn't believe you'd be released, or didn't

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Speaker 1: believe in the environment that you'd be.

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Speaker 3: No, I didn't believe that. I didn't believe that what

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Speaker 3: was being said was true. Jail is a place where

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Speaker 3: you be told many different things from someone that you

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Speaker 3: will believe that should be telling you what you meant

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Speaker 3: to hear. But I don't say from an officer or

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Speaker 3: a person of a certain level. But it's not the case.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's a very dark and distorted place, and

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Speaker 3: you're never safe anywhere, like meaning that your position in

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Speaker 3: any jlity is never Someone can just put that tick

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Speaker 3: into the computer and you're on a truck. And my

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Speaker 3: circumstances were I was like, what's it going to take nothing?

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Speaker 3: It's going to take nothing. And so I had certain

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Speaker 3: people on my side, but the majority of the officers

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Speaker 3: and that were like, you're letting this guy hit into

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Speaker 3: our prison, you know anyway, So then I come out

351
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Speaker 3: of the present slowly have a time. I mean, it

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Speaker 3: took the whole time for a lot of them. I

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Speaker 3: think maybe they just thought I was full of shit.

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Speaker 3: I've always been very respectful.

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Speaker 1: And what do you think that the naysay is going

356
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Speaker 1: through their mind? He's just taking the piss out of us.

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Speaker 1: He'll get in there and when he's got an issue,

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Speaker 1: he's going to light someone up and yeah, yeah, and

359
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Speaker 1: then we'll send him back. So that would have been

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Speaker 1: and given you history, it's a reasonable for him to

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Speaker 1: have is just bullshitting to us, and let me in

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Speaker 1: the dorm and when I do create havoc, it's going

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Speaker 1: to be a big one. Then you can ship me

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Speaker 1: back to super Max.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I guess you know, I understand why they

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Speaker 3: think that, because, to be honest, I always said to

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Speaker 3: myself that and do whatever I can to make sure

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Speaker 3: that I keep my hands to myself.

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Speaker 2: But if someone puts their hands on me. Well, that's

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Speaker 2: different story, you know.

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Speaker 3: And the problem that there was it was either going

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Speaker 3: to be nothing or six o'clock New Style, Do.

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Speaker 2: You get me?

374
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Speaker 3: And that's not what I want to do though, and

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Speaker 3: that's not what anyone wants say. I had, like, I

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Speaker 3: worked on myself very hard.

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Speaker 1: You know what stage was your mindset changing that, Hey,

378
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Speaker 1: I want to turn my life around. Was it when

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Speaker 1: you saw what was on offer at Macquarie Center. Was

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Speaker 1: that something that changed? What was the thing that.

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Speaker 3: So I just want to make something very clear. So

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Speaker 3: I've just sat here and you give a lot of

383
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Speaker 3: officers a good rap, a lot of correctional officers. The

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Speaker 3: start of this change does not start with an inmate.

385
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Speaker 3: And if anyone has the expectations that that's the case,

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Speaker 3: you're completely wrong.

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Speaker 2: And I can explain why.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So we come from a place where your battle is

390
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Speaker 3: stay alive. There's Westpac. I only got the spine out

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Speaker 3: of their daily So then I come to Macquarie, where

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Speaker 3: there's where you're expected to toe this certain line. Right,

393
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Speaker 3: but you're still in the same environment where you're dealing

394
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Speaker 3: with the inmates, and.

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Speaker 2: You've crossed bathro with these inmates.

396
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Speaker 3: You might have gone the water with its inmate at

397
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Speaker 3: some stage two and you're both there trying to do

398
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Speaker 3: the right thing. Now for an officer to say get

399
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Speaker 3: a to you in front of the boys and expect

400
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Speaker 3: you just say good a back after you've just got

401
00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:03,840
Speaker 3: a truck off a truck, when the only thing coming

402
00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:06,120
Speaker 3: at your mouth that officer is get the fuck out

403
00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:10,160
Speaker 3: of your dog. Yeah, now they're asking for something different, right,

404
00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:15,159
Speaker 3: but as history shows, they've never given us any reason

405
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Speaker 3: to give them respect. You show them respect and it

406
00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:24,439
Speaker 3: would be used against you. Right now, you turn up

407
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Speaker 3: to this place and your question if they're stitching out

408
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:31,000
Speaker 3: because it is not right. Yeah, But over time you

409
00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:34,200
Speaker 3: realize that they actually care about their job, They care

410
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Speaker 3: about trying to revealiitate you. So they must have chose

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Speaker 3: a team of officers that were to grow there. And

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Speaker 3: over time, when you work that out, so you gain

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Speaker 3: that initial respect from the officer, that will go the

414
00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:49,160
Speaker 3: way and over time you'll build a rapport. That doesn't

415
00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:50,480
Speaker 3: mean that you go up and you sit down and

416
00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:51,960
Speaker 3: you say, oh, how it's dinner last night.

417
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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're not best mates, but there's respect.

418
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Speaker 3: But how are you today? I'm fine, you know, what's

419
00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:58,439
Speaker 3: that you're carrying with a piece of artwork? I just

420
00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:00,760
Speaker 3: did it here down here, and then you know, like

421
00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:03,639
Speaker 3: I had officers by an artwork of me, you know,

422
00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:06,160
Speaker 3: And I found my jail to be very easy. And

423
00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:11,240
Speaker 3: everyone that works this out and then returns that it's

424
00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:15,560
Speaker 3: only minimal respect. It's just common courtesy. How are you today?

425
00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,479
Speaker 3: I'm well, thanks, how are you? You're not stepping outside

426
00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:20,200
Speaker 3: the boundaries, it's going to put you in trouble. Through

427
00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:23,880
Speaker 3: jail politics, there's always going to be someone that will say, oh,

428
00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:26,560
Speaker 3: this guy was too friendly. Yeah, but it's usually them

429
00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:29,639
Speaker 3: trying to cover up something that they've done somewhere, you know,

430
00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:33,480
Speaker 3: the old deflectioning trick. Like not many inmates are smart,

431
00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:36,320
Speaker 3: you know what I mean, Like, there's not many. And

432
00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:39,439
Speaker 3: from that point there, when that's shown in the first place,

433
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:42,320
Speaker 3: then it's given back and that it can grow. But

434
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:44,960
Speaker 3: it can't be expected from an inmate when he's been

435
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,800
Speaker 3: given nothing but shipped from this person in blue every

436
00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:50,000
Speaker 3: single experience he's had.

437
00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:53,879
Speaker 1: I'm hearing what you're saying. And so it's a slow

438
00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:56,800
Speaker 1: process where the trust is built up and the respect

439
00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,040
Speaker 1: is respect is gained, and.

440
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:04,000
Speaker 3: You've got someone that has has a lifetime of behaviors

441
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:08,680
Speaker 3: that he's trying to change, So that officers also needs

442
00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:11,320
Speaker 3: to acknowledge that there is going to be error and

443
00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:14,520
Speaker 3: not write that person off of that error, but allow

444
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:16,800
Speaker 3: that person to change. As long as he hasn't across

445
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,600
Speaker 3: the lines, that doesn't permit him to stay at that

446
00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:20,560
Speaker 3: correctional center.

447
00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:24,600
Speaker 1: Well, look, I've got to say from I was surprised

448
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,439
Speaker 1: by the officers that I got to deal with, and

449
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:31,600
Speaker 1: just a cross section of them. They were genuinely invested

450
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,199
Speaker 1: in what they were doing. Yeah, yeah, part of it

451
00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:36,280
Speaker 1: is self serving. They said, our job is so much

452
00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:40,119
Speaker 1: easier here if we go across to Wellington. We're dealing

453
00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:43,000
Speaker 1: with all this shit and trouble that happens in a

454
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:45,960
Speaker 1: more traditional jarl, and you come across here and there's

455
00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:48,120
Speaker 1: less shit that goes down.

456
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:50,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's right.

457
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:53,880
Speaker 3: And there's some standouts, like obviously in every field of everything.

458
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:54,240
Speaker 2: You know.

459
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,240
Speaker 3: So I've mentioned a fair few officers, but there's one

460
00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,520
Speaker 3: that there's too. I want to mention one in particular

461
00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:07,879
Speaker 3: that really drove so I implemented an NA program into Macquarie.

462
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:11,840
Speaker 2: Right now, this is pretty big because that's some statement.

463
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:13,120
Speaker 1: What did that involve.

464
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:15,960
Speaker 2: So if for the.

465
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,880
Speaker 3: Viewers, if they understand how NA works or AA works,

466
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:21,639
Speaker 3: it's the same sort of system. The only problem is

467
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,920
Speaker 3: that being in a jail environment, there's not much anonymous

468
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,000
Speaker 3: about it because they need to know who you are

469
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:31,000
Speaker 3: and where we are. But we were allowed to conduct ourselves. Now,

470
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:34,520
Speaker 3: at one point I had over ten percent of the

471
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:38,679
Speaker 3: jail in attendance voluntary. All right, that's pretty big numbers

472
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,040
Speaker 3: of boys that actually want to try and change get

473
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:45,639
Speaker 3: off the gear, yeap. But Elizabeth says, right, she was

474
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:49,520
Speaker 3: in our corner from day one, right, and the other

475
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,320
Speaker 3: officers that I did mention before, and they helped to

476
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,840
Speaker 3: drive this thing, and why I was. I'm pretty sure

477
00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 3: it's probably folded by now. I hope it hasn't because

478
00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:02,639
Speaker 3: it was going to be a massive thing. But Elizabeth Sears,

479
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,360
Speaker 3: she really drove it and to a point where they

480
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:09,760
Speaker 3: tried to stop it. But there's been a massive response.

481
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:12,560
Speaker 3: So we've got boys that have been heroin addicts and

482
00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:13,440
Speaker 3: full recovery.

483
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:15,920
Speaker 2: Now that's a good changing their lives. Mate.

484
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,920
Speaker 1: And you mentioned Liz Sears. I can speak about her.

485
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 1: She sat where you're sitting. She came on as a

486
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:24,639
Speaker 1: guest here, and actually she opened eyes to a lot

487
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 1: of things about what's going on in the prisons and

488
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:29,920
Speaker 1: different ways of doing it. Because I was looking, okay,

489
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,080
Speaker 1: well you've done the crime, you do the time, didn't

490
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:35,679
Speaker 1: really think much much about it. A couple of blokes

491
00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 1: that have been in have sort of said to me,

492
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:39,879
Speaker 1: will you treat this like animals? We're going to come

493
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 1: out behaving like animals. But what Liz explained what they

494
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 1: were doing at Macquarie, it just sort of blew me away.

495
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:47,879
Speaker 1: It made so much sense.

496
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:48,440
Speaker 2: That's right.

497
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:52,320
Speaker 3: So I want to make it clear about my positioning

498
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:57,120
Speaker 3: coming on here today. I want people to understand about

499
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,680
Speaker 3: people that have committed crimes. Fair Enough, they need to

500
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 3: be punished for their crimes, but if they want to

501
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:05,640
Speaker 3: change their ways, they don't need to drag that round

502
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 3: with the rest for the rest of their lives, right,

503
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 3: weighing them down and forcing them into a corner and

504
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:16,480
Speaker 3: given an option to rehabilitate and grow. Right if the

505
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 3: public knows this and supports this system. Just for example,

506
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,359
Speaker 3: I'm not going to mention any names, Robert, but I

507
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 3: was in that jail and quarry with some heavy hitters.

508
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:26,159
Speaker 2: Mate.

509
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:30,359
Speaker 3: I'm talking on these streets of Sydney and they're big hitters. Yeah, yeah,

510
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,680
Speaker 3: very very big hitters, and they're doing the same thing.

511
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,399
Speaker 3: They're better in their lives. They're getting away from the rubbish.

512
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 3: They want to come out and have a fresh start.

513
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:41,159
Speaker 3: They want the best for their kids, they want the

514
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 3: best for their grandkids. They've been given an opportunity and

515
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 3: they're taking it and they're using it and they need

516
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 3: to be respected for it.

517
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:49,919
Speaker 2: And when they come.

518
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 3: Out into the community and they have a go and

519
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:54,159
Speaker 3: they're trying to do the right thing, they need to

520
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 3: be given them doors. They need to be shown that

521
00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:59,479
Speaker 3: they can use what they've done to go and do

522
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,399
Speaker 3: better and do more. And these guys are really trying.

523
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 3: So if the public knows that this system is available, Like,

524
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 3: let's not forget that we're based that we're built on

525
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:12,440
Speaker 3: a background of convicts. We're always going to have a

526
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 3: jail system. But if we can rehabilitate inmates, especially ones

527
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 3: that have been through the ropes, they can come back

528
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 3: out and they can be someone to these young people

529
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 3: out here.

530
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,439
Speaker 1: You know, well, I know some of the people that

531
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 1: you're talking about. And in the time I spent there,

532
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 1: I got to speak to them, and yeah, I was

533
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:35,120
Speaker 1: surprised that I was even speaking to them, And yeah,

534
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,639
Speaker 1: I'm not naive, but I thought it was genuine in

535
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 1: what they were saying, instead of you leave me in

536
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,920
Speaker 1: this other system. I was angry, but I've seen here.

537
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,199
Speaker 1: What the fuck? Why have I wasted my life? I

538
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,679
Speaker 1: want to turn my life around. Then they to me,

539
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 1: they seem genuine and I'm not naive. That was, of

540
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 1: course I understood. But the other thing the prison does,

541
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,440
Speaker 1: and this is my and I've had a couple laughs

542
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:02,680
Speaker 1: because the humor is still there, and a couple of

543
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 1: laughs at my expense.

544
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,879
Speaker 2: Of of course, you got to expect that.

545
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 1: Were you one of the people yelling out there, let

546
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:12,919
Speaker 1: that go. But there was a couple of funny, funny

547
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 1: and weird comments. But anyway, as you expect walking through prison.

548
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 1: But they said, in those dorms, living in the dorms,

549
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 1: where you're picturing an area probably I don't know, three

550
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 1: sizes of size of a tennis court for twenty five

551
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 1: twenty five people. There a courtyard out the back where

552
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:35,880
Speaker 1: there's some gym equipment. You get to stay out there

553
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 1: till nine o'clock. If you need to stay out and

554
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:40,640
Speaker 1: some of the inmates are saying, this is the first

555
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,160
Speaker 1: time I've been able to see stars for years, because

556
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,239
Speaker 1: they can sit out there, lockdowns at nine o'clock when

557
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:48,440
Speaker 1: they have to come in. You're cooking out there, you

558
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 1: train there. The toilets are set up, not for bashings.

559
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 1: It's a single booth thing shower and toilet, and people

560
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,400
Speaker 1: are assigned to it. Kitchen that barbecue out the back.

561
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:03,440
Speaker 1: Noweople might say, well, that's too much luxury for it

562
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 1: with the crimes that they've done. Of course, what blew

563
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 1: me away was the fact that if there's twenty five

564
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 1: ore there and one's being a dickhead, instead of the

565
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 1: usual jail justice where he would have been bashed or

566
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,439
Speaker 1: shived or or whatever and dealt with, you get a

567
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 1: group sit there and negotiate through and go, look, we

568
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 1: can't put up with this type of behavior. Then you

569
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 1: actually vote them out of the pot if they're causing

570
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:30,639
Speaker 1: too much problems. That's negotiation skills. That's the type of

571
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,679
Speaker 1: skills you need for society. Those little things were the

572
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:35,359
Speaker 1: type of things that I took away from it.

573
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, definitely. So this is a perfect time just

574
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 3: for me to clarify when I told the boys not

575
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,960
Speaker 3: to talk to you. Yep, So little did you know

576
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 3: at that time that I actually had plans to come

577
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 3: out here and talk to you, to try and to

578
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 3: push this and I want to eventually try and help

579
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 3: young people that are going into gangs. And but beside

580
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 3: that point, most people in a jail in environment can't

581
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 3: handle themselves. So essentially in that environment where lorified babysitters now.

582
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 1: As in the people that can handle themselves look after

583
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 1: the people that can't handle themselves.

584
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 2: That's correct.

585
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 3: Now, in another jailed environment, we wouldn't be doing that

586
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 3: so much because there's no benefit for us to do that.

587
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 3: It's only going to make us week to align with

588
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 3: someone this week. In that environment, we're keeping the peace,

589
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 3: were making sure things are working and things are flowing. Now,

590
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 3: these eyes if they had to come in and thought

591
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 3: that it was a good idea to talk to you,

592
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 3: and then they were on a truck tomorrow in the

593
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 3: silver water, and then they got the silver bar and

594
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 3: they said, talking to Gary Jubilin, he'd be walking out

595
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 3: of him. He'd be walking out like a dartboard, you

596
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 3: know what I mean. So that was the reason that

597
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 3: I did that then, so they had nothing to do

598
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 3: with people not talking to you. So the voice that

599
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 3: did talk to you have enough respect and enough weight

600
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 3: within the jail system that they can justify what they did.

601
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 3: They didn't do anything wrong. The discussion that with you

602
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 3: wasn't anything that couldn't be discuss but there was all

603
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 3: there was also aside to it, and the jail benefit

604
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 3: from them speaking to you too.

605
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I look at it was a difficult thing and

606
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 1: I had no idea what would go on, and that

607
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 1: worried me because corrective services had no idea. When I

608
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 1: said what's going to happen, they said, we have no

609
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 1: fucking idea when you walk in. But yeah, with the

610
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 1: benefit of hindsight, walking in the pod was probably unannounced.

611
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 1: And that's why I think, then may it be known

612
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 1: what I was doing there and speaking to the people

613
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 1: and what you've said too. I was conscious of that

614
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 1: because I know I'm going in, but I get to

615
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 1: get to leave and some of the some of the

616
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 1: blokes that were naive and talking to me, I'm thinking,

617
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 1: this is not a good look. The heaviest, the people

618
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 1: that I would identify as the ones that can hold

619
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 1: their own felt more than comfortable talking talking to them

620
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 1: because I knew it's not going to come back on them.

621
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 1: There was a few people, so I understand what you're saying.

622
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 1: And even that incident we're talking about where you were

623
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 1: telling them not to pull back, and it was fairly

624
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 1: obvious that I wasn't well liked in there, but I

625
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 1: was worried about a couple of people that were thinking

626
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 1: what the fuck is going to happen after I walk out?

627
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 1: We're talking, So I respect it and my mistake there,

628
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 1: that's that's your home, and I've just walked in there,

629
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 1: walking around in the at the gym and the oval whatever,

630
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 1: that wasn't as bad, but that was walking walking in

631
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 1: your home. So didn't make that mistake again.

632
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 2: No, but I think I think it was a good

633
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 2: thing that you did.

634
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 3: I mean, obviously say you've had both sides, yeah, I

635
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 3: mean I remember hearing one of the boys real about

636
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 3: you so saying that you're a copper. But now you've

637
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 3: been charged and you want to jump on our side

638
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 3: now and you want to do this right?

639
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 1: Yeah.

640
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 2: Now, we're human beings. We adapt. Why do you think

641
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 2: that we can go into a yard like the yard at.

642
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 3: Golden and survive. Yeah, why do you think our grandfathers

643
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 3: went to war and slept in trenches for the blood.

644
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 2: We're humans.

645
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 3: We adapt to every situation. You had to do with that,

646
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 3: So you were that, but you're doing good with what

647
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 3: you took from that. So back in position, I don't

648
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 3: think you had the opportunity to see outside because you're

649
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 3: a police officer.

650
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 1: Well that's and yeah, I own this. And my thing

651
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 1: was I used to lock people up, get given another case,

652
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 1: and then follow that case, and then I wasn't thinking

653
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 1: what happened behind the behind the yard, behind the gates.

654
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 1: But no, I think it was an interesting, interesting experience.

655
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 1: And I also went into Wellington and the attitude was

656
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 1: there was completely different. When I'm walking around there. Well,

657
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 1: still the comments, but a little bit more intense when

658
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 1: I was in there.

659
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 2: But yeah, so you can understand why though, Oh it's

660
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 2: a different.

661
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 3: So so those boys, those boys have to make comments,

662
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 3: you get me, they see you walk past, they're in

663
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 3: a yard, they're in a stand up yard. They have

664
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 3: to go a coup of dog, keep walking, Yeah, because

665
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 3: if they don't, it's I don't turn around and go

666
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 3: what are your fucking copper? And then the rest of

667
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 3: the boys hear it and we're talking about some weak minds.

668
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know that it could set off.

669
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 2: It'll swell until it happens.

670
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I wasn't sure how long did it go

671
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 1: on because I know there was a bit of turmoil

672
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 1: when I first came into Macquarie and yeah, I don't

673
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 1: want to cause the dramas here, but yeah, it worked

674
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 1: out and I think it was worthwhile for everyone. And

675
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 1: I got it, got a got a message out. But

676
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 1: it opened my eyes, it really did. And another thing

677
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 1: because I'm thinking, have I had the warl pool out

678
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 1: of my eyes after spending time with you guys for

679
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 1: so long? But I spoke to a person who'd lost

680
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 1: his son in a murder and he made he made

681
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 1: the point Ken Marslow, it was a bad, bad, one

682
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 1: armed robbery where his nine year old son was shopped

683
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 1: during robbery a pizza hut and no need for it.

684
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 1: But I said that, Ken, Ken, am I missing the

685
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 1: point here? Have I gone soft? Like I'm thinking what

686
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:58,719
Speaker 1: they're doing here in this prison is definitely worthwhile? And

687
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 1: he said it's about getting smart on crime, Like these

688
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 1: people are going to go out, do we want them skills?

689
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 1: To go out. So if they go out and don't

690
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 1: commit further crime, there's less victims. So no, you're not

691
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 1: going soften. Yeah, that was from a victim's point of

692
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:16,719
Speaker 1: view that I wanted to get. So I've been championing

693
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:19,880
Speaker 1: what they're doing in there wherever I can, and I'm

694
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 1: not naive, And even you guys, the inmates in there,

695
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 1: would say this isn't going to work for everyone, Like

696
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 1: there's that ten percent that you're not going to change.

697
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:30,760
Speaker 3: That holds relevance to everyone. Yeah, right, And it depends

698
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 3: where everyone's at in their time. Some people, there's some

699
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 3: prisoners that can't adapt, they can't change. Yeah, right, jail's easy.

700
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 3: Like if you get like, people might spin out when

701
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 3: I say that. But for me, even in a jail

702
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 3: where anything can happen, that's that's your only Can you

703
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 3: focus on that all day all night and it might

704
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:54,440
Speaker 3: get more volatile and more twisted up and everything, but

705
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 3: that's what you're doing. Get up in the morning, get

706
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 3: in the yard for so many and you come back

707
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 3: in that's it quarry for me, Like, it was great

708
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 3: because I got up and I got the able and

709
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,799
Speaker 3: do things. I was painting at a mad job, and

710
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 3: I found that great. And then you come out into

711
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 3: the real world and it's real.

712
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:14,279
Speaker 1: Well, one of the prisoners in there said, I was

713
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:16,359
Speaker 1: talking to him, and he's gone when I go home

714
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,839
Speaker 1: at night, and I'm thinking that, But that's how he

715
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 1: was looking at the pot that's going home. But they

716
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:25,719
Speaker 1: had you studying for six hours a day, working for

717
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,279
Speaker 1: six hours a day, and given some freedoms. Yeah, and

718
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,319
Speaker 1: what difference did that make to you from going from

719
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 1: the traditional tough yard in Goulburn too into an environment

720
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 1: like that. How did that change?

721
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 2: Listen?

722
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:42,279
Speaker 3: I was already wanting to change anyway, you know, like

723
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:46,279
Speaker 3: I was wanting to I was paying it all up

724
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 3: and everything that I've lost, you know, Like I mean

725
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 3: I had, like I had a beautiful little family and

726
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 3: that and even though like I've still got my kids

727
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:56,279
Speaker 3: and like I love them to death, they love me too.

728
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,319
Speaker 3: And there's this massive time frame that I missed out

729
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 3: on photos and at hung I can just stare at

730
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 3: because I can remember that time. Like my daughter, My

731
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:07,799
Speaker 3: daughter's a little machine, you know, And I just look

732
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 3: at this fight and sometimes it can just make me crumble,

733
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 3: you know, because I can remember that, and I can

734
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:15,280
Speaker 3: remember how much I loved it, and it just hurts

735
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:17,920
Speaker 3: me to think that, you know, that I went that

736
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:20,479
Speaker 3: way still with that, So that's sort of what hurts

737
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 3: me the most. But as far as that point when

738
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 3: it comes time to change, mate, when I was hitting

739
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 3: super Max and and after having that little dream that

740
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:31,440
Speaker 3: I told you about there and I just thought, what

741
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 3: am I doing?

742
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 2: Though?

743
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 3: What am I going to do? Am I gonna? Am

744
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 3: I going to go back out into a yard? And

745
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:38,840
Speaker 3: am I gonna? And this is what I do. I

746
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 3: elevate myself to whatever it has to happen, you know,

747
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:44,840
Speaker 3: And sometimes I fake it to make it, but I

748
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:47,840
Speaker 3: get there and I don't even know what I'm capable

749
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 3: of until until.

750
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:53,399
Speaker 2: It goes there. But I have that ability to adapt. Now.

751
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 3: I knew that if I went back out into that yard,

752
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,080
Speaker 3: I was going to have to elevate more, or if

753
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 3: I wanted to go and take the same traction no

754
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 3: matter where I ended up, And I knew what that

755
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 3: meant for me, and that was to guarantee the one

756
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 3: of the two things that was going to happen to

757
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 3: me before I went to jail. So that was time

758
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,440
Speaker 3: to change, you know. But to change, I had to

759
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:18,359
Speaker 3: heal too, and that's where this art come into it.

760
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:23,920
Speaker 1: Okay, so with the art, and we spoke earlier on

761
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 1: about it, but that's given you something to channel your energy. Yeah,

762
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:30,719
Speaker 1: Like I'm a big believery ying and Yang. You've got

763
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 1: the hard side, You've got the soft side is this

764
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 1: You're channeling the soft energy into India paintings.

765
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:36,360
Speaker 2: You know.

766
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 3: Like with this is like, I have trouble expressing my emotions.

767
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 3: So and I'm either here or I'm there, and like

768
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 3: and depending on the emotions depends on the way that

769
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 3: I'm going to hold myself. Right if a tear comes

770
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 3: to my eyes as a dangerous situation because I feel

771
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:00,879
Speaker 3: like someone will said that tear and and think I'm weak,

772
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 3: So I'll elevate to a situation where it'll probably take

773
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 3: someone special to stand there, you know. And I hate

774
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 3: that and I hate that person and it made me sick.

775
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:14,239
Speaker 3: You know, I didn't like that person. I knew I

776
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:17,359
Speaker 3: didn't like that person, and I thought, who, how can

777
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 3: anyone love me or like me if I don't like

778
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,719
Speaker 3: this person? And that's where this come into it. So

779
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:24,400
Speaker 3: I got to express my emotions with having to let

780
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 3: it out. I just grab a paint brush as I

781
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 3: start slapping around. The only thing I did do was

782
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 3: I helped myself back. Was I was too neat when

783
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:33,319
Speaker 3: I was learning. If I really wanted to let my

784
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:35,760
Speaker 3: emotions go, I should have just frown that brush around,

785
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,400
Speaker 3: you know, Like I know like I'm doing now, And

786
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,920
Speaker 3: it's the best way to deliver a message that you

787
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,840
Speaker 3: want to get out or to relieve yourself or something.

788
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 3: And color can do Color can do this. So color

789
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 3: has an association in our brain that allows us to

790
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:55,280
Speaker 3: either feel a certain way when we see a color

791
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 3: or react a certain way. And I've really embraced it.

792
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:03,360
Speaker 1: I can see how you're talking now, the comness that

793
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 1: comes across with you. You're talking talking about your art.

794
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 1: So is that striving to make a living from your art?

795
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 1: Is that what you're doing?

796
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 2: I would love to make a living from my art.

797
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:16,960
Speaker 3: So, like I told you that, I've been studying and everything,

798
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,320
Speaker 3: and I would love to get into juvenile corrections.

799
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,279
Speaker 1: Okay, tell us that we've had a chat, but it

800
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:25,279
Speaker 1: wasn't on Mike, tell us about what you're studying and

801
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 1: what you're doing there.

802
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:31,919
Speaker 3: Okay, So funny story. Me and an old enemy from

803
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:34,920
Speaker 3: a different gang. We did a search for a youth

804
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:35,799
Speaker 3: work together at the.

805
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 1: Jail, right, okay, so they.

806
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 2: Used to hear it. Well, they used to use me

807
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 2: every time a new gangman would come.

808
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 3: They come, they get me to go down and talk

809
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 3: to them to try and explain the why the jail

810
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 3: is anyway, So the day I had to go down

811
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 3: and speak with this lad, we end up becoming so close.

812
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 3: It's like and I got a lot of love for him,

813
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 3: you know. But back on the streets and Mount Drew,

814
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 3: it thinks she used to be very dif print, you know. Anyways,

815
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,920
Speaker 3: we need to search for a youth work together through correspondence,

816
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 3: and it was something that was I guess they had

817
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:12,879
Speaker 3: to get the bricks and mortar out to make it happen. Yeah, yeah,

818
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 3: that makes.

819
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 1: Sense, Yeah, to let you you guys do that.

820
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:17,800
Speaker 2: Yeah.

821
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 3: And so then there was a big outcry over in

822
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 3: the jail about people everyone want to do.

823
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:26,440
Speaker 2: To do it as well, but they weren't allowed to.

824
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 3: And it was like, well, well you've got to be

825
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 3: a gang member or you know, they're not meant to

826
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:31,399
Speaker 3: be here.

827
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:33,400
Speaker 2: That's you get me, right.

828
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:36,400
Speaker 1: So there was this is politics of a different, different

829
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 1: level in the well.

830
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:39,880
Speaker 2: I guess this is where politics collide.

831
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:42,880
Speaker 1: Okay, so they're giving you guys because you've been so

832
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:45,399
Speaker 1: bad and your gang members and you shouldn't be in here,

833
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 1: but you're allowed to do it. Why aren't we allowed

834
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:47,480
Speaker 1: to do it?

835
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:49,319
Speaker 3: But they had a reason for it, Yeah, and they

836
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 3: and it was paving the way for them in a

837
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 3: jailed environment. Fast thinking people don't get to absorb this

838
00:40:57,560 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 3: information and sort of try and take a back to

839
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 3: have a.

840
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:01,400
Speaker 2: Look at the big picture.

841
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it had to be done first, trying to

842
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:10,400
Speaker 3: get something over the line to give inmates. It's a

843
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:14,120
Speaker 3: dead end. Yeah, So it's a hard slog.

844
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 1: And why do you say that it's a dead end.

845
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:21,600
Speaker 3: Or well, you're talking about saying an inmate that's got

846
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:25,480
Speaker 3: in charge for a double murder. Yeah, right, and now

847
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:29,280
Speaker 3: he's asking for funding, not just any funding, he's asking

848
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:32,920
Speaker 3: for ten or twenty grand. Why he's the inmate to

849
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 3: study so one on the clock back no way in

850
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 3: the world.

851
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 1: Well that's the public. When I say the public, there's

852
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:45,920
Speaker 1: a view of public view that why are we rewarding

853
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 1: people for going to prison? And that's the type of

854
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 1: pushback as well. Do it And yeah, understandable counter argument

855
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 1: to that is it, well, if I look at it

856
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:03,200
Speaker 1: this way, let people study when they're in prison, because

857
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:05,040
Speaker 1: if they come out and that stears them in the

858
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:09,319
Speaker 1: right direction fiscally. From a monetary point of view, the

859
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:12,960
Speaker 1: money you've spent on getting someone in education if they

860
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:16,720
Speaker 1: don't reoffend, is money well spent because the amount of costs.

861
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:19,480
Speaker 1: I forget the figures. It's I'm throwing this out there.

862
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 1: Could be completely wrong, but just from a memory, it's

863
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:23,719
Speaker 1: like one hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year to

864
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:24,319
Speaker 1: house one.

865
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 3: From memory, I think it's a one hundred and seventy

866
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 3: one or one hundred and sixty one thousand a year.

867
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.

868
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 3: And then on top of that, basically every time INMKE

869
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:35,239
Speaker 3: it's on a truck it's like eleven hundred dollars or

870
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 3: something that's a revolving doal.

871
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 1: And the police and the impact it has on victims

872
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 1: and the victims of crime. So to me putting money

873
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 1: in to help educate people, I don't think it's soft,

874
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:50,920
Speaker 1: as ken Marzo said, It's not getting soft, it's getting

875
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:51,760
Speaker 1: smart on crime.

876
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:52,440
Speaker 2: That's right.

877
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 3: So now inside mcquarie Correctional Center, Yeah, they run a

878
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 3: traineeship which is essentially a diploma but workplace engagement. So

879
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 3: the guys get to go down with the Zappos and

880
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:08,720
Speaker 3: do their work hours. So while they're inmates, they're actually

881
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:13,279
Speaker 3: getting out with a diploma work qualified to go and

882
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 3: do work in the community services field. So now it's

883
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 3: now it's implemented into the jail system.

884
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 1: To me, it make sense. The trick is where you

885
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 1: go from that jail system, and you were talking about it,

886
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,080
Speaker 1: you were scared of getting out of jail than you

887
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 1: were going into jail. Talk us through that, because I

888
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:36,560
Speaker 1: don't think people realize how terrifying it can be when

889
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:38,760
Speaker 1: you're used to an environment and all of a sudden,

890
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 1: I've been released into the world.

891
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:46,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. So yeah, so it's really tough. I guess, Like.

892
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:50,240
Speaker 3: I guess, if you want people to succeed in life,

893
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 3: you have to you have to take a chance on

894
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 3: them anyway, you know, Like I think some of the

895
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:56,719
Speaker 3: hardest things for people to get their head around. And

896
00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:00,400
Speaker 3: you see someone that's been broadcasted over the news, and

897
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:03,400
Speaker 3: let's face it, they have to sell papers, right, So

898
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:07,960
Speaker 3: this so let's just say in a for example, Now

899
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:12,239
Speaker 3: say for instance, the news get a hold of this

900
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:14,400
Speaker 3: guy going in to do one two free, but the

901
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 3: papers have said one two free back then, and so

902
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:19,760
Speaker 3: there's a massive like a confliction.

903
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:23,719
Speaker 2: People are like, but hang on, why would you like that?

904
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:25,040
Speaker 2: Could I do that? When he done this.

905
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:26,360
Speaker 1: Out you've got the headlines.

906
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:29,759
Speaker 3: But see then these guys go and do this, and

907
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 3: they're given that opportunity to go. Do you know how

908
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 3: many people that have left Macquarie for Extiononal Center and

909
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:37,920
Speaker 3: have succeeding. They're actually succeeding. So by me coming on

910
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:42,680
Speaker 3: here and talking is to get that message across. So

911
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:45,840
Speaker 3: right now, I'm still doing a diploma. I applied for

912
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:48,120
Speaker 3: my working with children checked while I was still in Cussy.

913
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:51,960
Speaker 3: They got knocked back. Right, I don't have any domestic

914
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:58,400
Speaker 3: violence crimes. I've never like all my crimes and they

915
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 3: are all club related. I'm not excusing any of it.

916
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 3: Not my crimes are my crimes. Now for the public

917
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:11,520
Speaker 3: to then be able to accept someone, this is why

918
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:15,440
Speaker 3: we touched on why people go into dark places and

919
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:19,319
Speaker 3: why things happen. So I'm not excusing my behavior, but

920
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 3: I have told you there's a reason that my behavior

921
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:27,239
Speaker 3: did go down this avenue and now I want to

922
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:29,319
Speaker 3: take everything that I've learned and I want to take

923
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:29,839
Speaker 3: it back out.

924
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:31,080
Speaker 2: And I want to help and I want to have

925
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:31,680
Speaker 2: an impact.

926
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:35,279
Speaker 3: I want to go into juvenile corrections where there's all

927
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 3: these young guys I might not get through to. If

928
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:41,880
Speaker 3: I can get through to one, you think about that family.

929
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:44,319
Speaker 3: You think about that mother and father. How grateful love

930
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:47,640
Speaker 3: we to get their kid back. I just done time

931
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:52,840
Speaker 3: with eighteen year old kids that are doing murder whacks

932
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:55,160
Speaker 3: for this postcode bullshit.

933
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:55,799
Speaker 2: Right.

934
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:58,400
Speaker 3: I don't even know what well they're in. They're just

935
00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:02,719
Speaker 3: running around. They're listen these gangster wrap. They see all

936
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:06,400
Speaker 3: this that like, they see the way that we conduct

937
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:09,000
Speaker 3: ourselves and that when we're out and gangs and that

938
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:11,440
Speaker 3: sort of thing, and they think it's great and that's

939
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:13,080
Speaker 3: what they want to be. But they don't know what

940
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:16,000
Speaker 3: it is right until it's too late, until they've torn

941
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:20,959
Speaker 3: their family apart, until they've ruined their lives, and when

942
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:24,080
Speaker 3: they do realize what they've done wrong, they got to

943
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:24,520
Speaker 3: live with that.

944
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:25,920
Speaker 2: It might be easy.

945
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 3: Then, it might be easy when you've got the boys

946
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:30,440
Speaker 3: there with you, when you're on the drugs, when you're

947
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:32,399
Speaker 3: doing this, when you're doing that. But when you get

948
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:35,520
Speaker 3: back to being you, when you look and you're looking

949
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 3: at yourself in the mirror and you're wondering who you

950
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:41,240
Speaker 3: are and you're wondering why you know or for something

951
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,360
Speaker 3: so stupid. If I can get into t all these people,

952
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:47,920
Speaker 3: it's not what you think is. Outside looking in is

953
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:49,399
Speaker 3: much better than inside looking out.

954
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:51,239
Speaker 2: I can assure.

955
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 1: You well, like with what they have at Macquarie, which

956
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:57,360
Speaker 1: is good for where you got to that, but obviously

957
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 1: the ideal way would be preventing people going in there

958
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:04,680
Speaker 1: and those get those young fellas and I bang on

959
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:08,480
Speaker 1: about it here on the podcast, but people who have

960
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:11,600
Speaker 1: got that lived experience carry more weight with the kids

961
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:12,239
Speaker 1: that are going off.

962
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:12,960
Speaker 2: That's right.

963
00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:16,839
Speaker 1: If you've got let's call a young punk going I'm

964
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 1: going to be this, I'm going to be that. I'm

965
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 1: going to be everything you were a biking this and that,

966
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 1: and you can sit them down and go mate, I

967
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 1: went down this path and this is what happened to me.

968
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:30,359
Speaker 1: I'm telling you exactly. There's other paths that you can take.

969
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:32,000
Speaker 1: There's no glory in.

970
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:35,759
Speaker 3: It and depending on and my guess is that a

971
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:37,880
Speaker 3: lot of these people are probably dealing with something that

972
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:42,200
Speaker 3: I was dealing with being identity issues too, and it's

973
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:45,960
Speaker 3: just natural part of growing up. I just think that

974
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 3: there's it's just a different way, and I think we can.

975
00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:53,520
Speaker 3: I think that we can try and do more, do

976
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:56,719
Speaker 3: more to prevent it. All we're doing is making the

977
00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:00,279
Speaker 3: work harder for the police. We're making it hard for

978
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 3: the families to get on and live. Like, do you

979
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 3: think about these what are the kids that I told

980
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 3: you about that I was doing time with. Now there's

981
00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:09,920
Speaker 3: a reason that that they murdered whoever it was, and

982
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:12,319
Speaker 3: it's not because they were a good person. But what

983
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:15,880
Speaker 3: about that person's family that just lost their son because

984
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:18,200
Speaker 3: he had some kind of idea that got into his

985
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 3: head three months ago and he thought it was this

986
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:20,360
Speaker 3: and that.

987
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:25,120
Speaker 1: Look, I've seen the chaos that surrounds. Yeah, one person

988
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 1: being murdered or severely severely injured, the family of the

989
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:31,800
Speaker 1: victim obviously, and the friends of the victim.

990
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 3: You're multiple people, well you know, more than maybe that

991
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:35,440
Speaker 3: I don't know, you know.

992
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:40,600
Speaker 1: And then the offender's family. Yeah, that might be your parents.

993
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:44,040
Speaker 1: I'm sure that. Yeah, if you did something that they're

994
00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 1: just gone. Oh no, something that would have kept you

995
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:48,840
Speaker 1: in jail for life, which there was always always a

996
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:52,160
Speaker 1: chance with the life that you were living. Yeah, their

997
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:55,759
Speaker 1: lives are destroyed, your kids' lives. Like yeah, there's so

998
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:57,840
Speaker 1: many same many things earth.

999
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:00,480
Speaker 3: And also but also too, like I told, I come

1000
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:03,720
Speaker 3: from a beautiful family. I come from a very strong family.

1001
00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 3: I kept myself separated from that, not entirely, but for

1002
00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:12,799
Speaker 3: a veryvery long time because there are for the reasons

1003
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 3: to do, and also with what was going on, and

1004
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:18,560
Speaker 3: like years and years ago, there was a pretty wild

1005
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 3: incident that come to mom and Dad's house where we

1006
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:23,440
Speaker 3: used to live, and you know, I promised myself that

1007
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:25,759
Speaker 3: that would never happen again. But now I'm back with them,

1008
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:27,919
Speaker 3: and it's great, and these things are really good.

1009
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:28,200
Speaker 1: You know.

1010
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:32,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm so grateful for the second chance, the second

1011
00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:35,759
Speaker 3: opportunity that I'm not going to say that I was

1012
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:38,480
Speaker 3: given because I gave it to myself. I did it myself,

1013
00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:40,400
Speaker 3: you know, like the odds were on for me not

1014
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 3: to succeed, and I proved so many people wrong. And

1015
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 3: there's so many people that I'm grateful for the experience

1016
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:52,320
Speaker 3: that and I'm still experiencing it. Like I said, I

1017
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:53,520
Speaker 3: don't quite know who I am.

1018
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:56,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, well you know how long you've been out for

1019
00:49:56,480 --> 00:50:00,839
Speaker 1: eight months? Okay, so it's all new to you. Yeah,

1020
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:02,600
Speaker 1: so feeling feeling your way?

1021
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:03,319
Speaker 2: Yeah. So.

1022
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:06,279
Speaker 3: But for like, I'm doing a lot of social media

1023
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 3: stuff around my art and that Now.

1024
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:10,600
Speaker 1: Where can people find find your art?

1025
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:11,000
Speaker 2: Okay?

1026
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:15,080
Speaker 3: So on TikTok at at see the Art crim so

1027
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:19,080
Speaker 3: actually so a T s Y. That's my art signature.

1028
00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:22,160
Speaker 3: For obviously promotional reasons to do with it. I called

1029
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:26,319
Speaker 3: myself at See the Art crim Okay. Now, part of

1030
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:29,359
Speaker 3: it is going to be for me to be able

1031
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:33,000
Speaker 3: to maybe influence other people to get involved with art

1032
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:35,920
Speaker 3: if they've been through drama or other sorts of things.

1033
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:39,520
Speaker 3: And obviously I want to showcase my work. So I've

1034
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:41,560
Speaker 3: been going live each night at eight o'clock, which is

1035
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:44,520
Speaker 3: a bit weird because I don't understand how TikTok works.

1036
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:47,799
Speaker 3: I've got mate, I've got people coming up on the

1037
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:50,800
Speaker 3: screen and doing these battle things, and I'm just sitting

1038
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:52,040
Speaker 3: there smiling and talking.

1039
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:53,400
Speaker 2: I've got no idea what's going on?

1040
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 1: Good luck? Be careful, yeah, get your kids to tell

1041
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:59,640
Speaker 1: you what to do. Yeah, they know my kids take

1042
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 1: my phone off me. No, Yeah, just don't do that.

1043
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:03,520
Speaker 2: That's crazy.

1044
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:06,520
Speaker 1: Yeah. Look, it is a new medium and it's a

1045
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:10,399
Speaker 1: way to get messages out and get your art out there.

1046
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:13,680
Speaker 1: But if that's an example of your work, you could

1047
00:51:13,719 --> 00:51:14,880
Speaker 1: have told me that was a fader.

1048
00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:15,399
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1049
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:18,960
Speaker 1: I can't believe the detail that you put in. How

1050
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:20,640
Speaker 1: long did it take you to paint that?

1051
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:23,360
Speaker 3: Okay, so that didn't take me very long. I already

1052
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:26,920
Speaker 3: painted it before, so I kind of knew where I

1053
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:31,759
Speaker 3: was going. And it's monochromatic, so it's in black and white,

1054
00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:34,800
Speaker 3: so it takes that color element.

1055
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:34,880
Speaker 2: Out of it.

1056
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:37,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, so it probably only took me around ten hours.

1057
00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:40,120
Speaker 3: If I were to produced the same thing in color,

1058
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:44,120
Speaker 3: it would probably take me probably around forty hours.

1059
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:46,480
Speaker 1: Made me a bit longer, you know, Jesus, there's a

1060
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:49,160
Speaker 1: real talent there. Is it all your type of art?

1061
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:51,320
Speaker 1: Is it all portraits or no? No?

1062
00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:54,800
Speaker 2: So I do. I haven't really found my style.

1063
00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:59,760
Speaker 3: I just love painting, so I do landscapes, animals more

1064
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:04,280
Speaker 3: Like I said, that's a realism painting. So I painted

1065
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:07,920
Speaker 3: one of two pac which is not so much realism.

1066
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:10,040
Speaker 3: But I guess more I don't really know all the

1067
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:12,680
Speaker 3: all the words that go with it, but more expression

1068
00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:15,239
Speaker 3: is them or something like that, I guess, But I

1069
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:17,839
Speaker 3: just like to paint, so I don't really restrict myself.

1070
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:19,920
Speaker 1: How many hours you spending the week painting.

1071
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:25,360
Speaker 3: Funny enough, over the last two weeks with trying to

1072
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:28,360
Speaker 3: work out this social I haven't actually I haven't actually

1073
00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:31,440
Speaker 3: got too much time up on the paintbrush. But I

1074
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:34,319
Speaker 3: promised myself because of all that that I'll put in

1075
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:36,400
Speaker 3: a lot more. But I like to spend, you know,

1076
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:37,880
Speaker 3: a few hours every night painting.

1077
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:42,760
Speaker 1: Here. Your family pleased with the person that ye walked

1078
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:43,320
Speaker 1: out the gates?

1079
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:46,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely, yeah, they and you know what, like I'm

1080
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:49,680
Speaker 3: in they used to come and visit me and like

1081
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:53,319
Speaker 3: I'd get a lot of wrap from the offices like

1082
00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:57,000
Speaker 3: on their way in, and also inmates to my parents

1083
00:52:57,040 --> 00:52:59,440
Speaker 3: and everything. I guess, you know, for what it was,

1084
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:01,200
Speaker 3: they had to find some way to find a way

1085
00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:01,840
Speaker 3: to be proud of you.

1086
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:02,040
Speaker 2: You know.

1087
00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:04,000
Speaker 1: Well, when I was talking to you on the phone

1088
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:06,880
Speaker 1: the other other day, I heard your mum in the back. Yeah. Yeah,

1089
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:08,360
Speaker 1: she sounds like a bit of a character.

1090
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:11,239
Speaker 2: She's a character, all right, Yeah, she's the best man.

1091
00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:15,239
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I appreciate you coming on here, and we

1092
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:18,520
Speaker 1: both talked about the messaging that we wanted to get across,

1093
00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:21,400
Speaker 1: and that was very much about a different way of

1094
00:53:21,440 --> 00:53:25,600
Speaker 1: doing the prison system. Yeah, but yeah, we this podcast.

1095
00:53:25,719 --> 00:53:29,240
Speaker 1: We'd love stories of redemption and turning your life around.

1096
00:53:29,239 --> 00:53:32,600
Speaker 1: And yeah, I think full credit to you, and I

1097
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:36,000
Speaker 1: genuinely mean this. So I hope, because it's not long

1098
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:37,799
Speaker 1: that you've been out, I hope you can stay on

1099
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:43,239
Speaker 1: the stay on the journey. Yeah, and yeah, enjoy your life.

1100
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:47,040
Speaker 1: It's better on the outside percent.

1101
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:50,320
Speaker 3: I just want to say too, So if any inmates,

1102
00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:53,640
Speaker 3: for anyone, if they're getting out and they're struggling, you

1103
00:53:53,680 --> 00:53:56,160
Speaker 3: can you can send me a message on or TikTok

1104
00:53:56,239 --> 00:53:57,880
Speaker 3: whatever and I'll do whatever I can to help you.

1105
00:53:57,920 --> 00:53:59,759
Speaker 3: If you need some advice or someone to talk to her.

1106
00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:04,560
Speaker 1: I think that's a good idea. Again, someone someone that's experienced.

1107
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:09,120
Speaker 1: And yeah, I've spoken to people without giving up names

1108
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:13,920
Speaker 1: that have known you and said that you're hitting in

1109
00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:14,640
Speaker 1: the right direction.

1110
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:17,040
Speaker 3: So yeah, it's been good and I've had the support

1111
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:19,960
Speaker 3: to go with it, and it's kind OF's a good feeling.

1112
00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:20,279
Speaker 2: I guess.

1113
00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:22,960
Speaker 3: To get that support, I had to prove myself too,

1114
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:26,919
Speaker 3: So you know, I didn't just come from nowhere. So well, sorry,

1115
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:29,640
Speaker 3: there's one that I just want to please, a bit

1116
00:54:29,640 --> 00:54:34,279
Speaker 3: of a carne. She's left the corrections now, but she

1117
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:36,680
Speaker 3: used to go above and beyond for the boys as well.

1118
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:40,760
Speaker 1: So now again, these are people who are making making

1119
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:43,799
Speaker 1: the difference, like a good corrective services officer if they're

1120
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:47,680
Speaker 1: just helping one person in there, yeah great, and yeah,

1121
00:54:48,040 --> 00:54:51,640
Speaker 1: I'm sure wind it back. I don't know, six years

1122
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:53,920
Speaker 1: ago when you first started in super Max, I didn't think.

1123
00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:56,279
Speaker 1: I don't think you would have been thinking I'm going

1124
00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:59,919
Speaker 1: to sit here with a detective inspector from a gang

1125
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:03,200
Speaker 1: squad talking about corrective services officers that are.

1126
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:06,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, been great to be I appreciate it.

1127
00:55:06,560 --> 00:55:09,120
Speaker 1: No, I appreciate your making the effort. So all the

1128
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:09,960
Speaker 1: best for the future.

1129
00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:11,160
Speaker 2: Thank you. I appreciate it.

1130
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:14,400
Speaker 1: And just add if people want to find out more

1131
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:17,360
Speaker 1: about what went on in the Quarie Correctional Center of

1132
00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:21,280
Speaker 1: the podcast episode Breaking Badness, it goes in the great

1133
00:55:21,280 --> 00:55:24,120
Speaker 1: detail the type of thing that Adam has been talking

1134
00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:26,160
Speaker 1: about and really give you a sense of what goes

1135
00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:27,560
Speaker 1: on in that prison.

1136
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:29,600
Speaker 2: All right, thank you, Thanks you guys,