WEBVTT - What does Australia’s recognition of Palestine actually achieve? 0:00:02.040 --> 0:00:05.840 Today, I can confirm that at the eightieth Session of 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:11.040 the United Nations General Assembly in September, Australia will recognize 0:00:11.080 --> 0:00:12.640 the state of Palestine. 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:16.440 Prime Minister Anthony Alberanesi has announced that from next month, 0:00:16.800 --> 0:00:22.000 Australia will recognize a Palestinian state, alongside allies including the UK, 0:00:22.320 --> 0:00:26.880 Canada and France. Albanzi claims that doing so would move 0:00:26.920 --> 0:00:29.360 the Middle East back toward a two state solution. 0:00:30.080 --> 0:00:33.600 A two state solution is humanity's best hope to break 0:00:33.680 --> 0:00:37.479 the cycle of violence in the Middle East and to 0:00:37.479 --> 0:00:43.120 bring an end to the conflict, suffering and starvation in Gaza. 0:00:43.200 --> 0:00:46.800 But as Israel ramps up its military campaign in Gaza 0:00:46.880 --> 0:00:54.680 once again, what difference does recognition really make? I'm Ruby 0:00:54.760 --> 0:00:59.360 Jones and you're listening to seven AM today contributing editor 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:02.560 of the New Daalie Amy Ramikuz on what the international 0:01:02.600 --> 0:01:06.479 community is trying to achieve and whether it's too late. 0:01:11.440 --> 0:01:20.360 It's Tuesday, August twelfth. Amy, We've just heard the Prime 0:01:20.360 --> 0:01:25.319 Minister Anthony Abernezi announce that Australia will recognize a Palestinian state. 0:01:25.520 --> 0:01:29.720 So what does that actually mean in practical terms? It's 0:01:30.400 --> 0:01:33.200 largely symbolic. It is not going to do anything to 0:01:33.440 --> 0:01:37.400 end the military offensive that Israel is carrying out in Gaza. 0:01:37.440 --> 0:01:39.640 It's not going to do anything to start the flow 0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:41.839 of aid. It's not going to be able to stop 0:01:41.880 --> 0:01:43.120 Israel or pressure. 0:01:42.800 --> 0:01:45.679 Them into doing anything that Israel doesn't want to do, 0:01:45.800 --> 0:01:49.520 particularly why the United States remains so strongly allied with 0:01:49.680 --> 0:01:53.360 Israel in this campaign. What it will do, though, is 0:01:53.560 --> 0:01:58.000 it does isolate Benjamin Ettanyahu within the international community. It 0:01:58.080 --> 0:02:02.720 also sets up stronger diplomatic relations with the Palestinian Authority, 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:06.680 which is who every Western government is talking about when 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:11.600 they talk about recognizing Palestine. They're talking about the Palestinian Authority, 0:02:11.639 --> 0:02:14.440 which is in the West Bank, and the Palestinian Authority 0:02:14.520 --> 0:02:18.320 has already agreed to these preconditions to recognition. 0:02:18.480 --> 0:02:23.120 The Palestinian Authority has reaffirmed it recognizes Israel's right to 0:02:23.200 --> 0:02:28.720 exist in peace and security. It has committed to demilitarize 0:02:29.120 --> 0:02:33.400 and to hold general elections. It has pledged to abolish 0:02:33.480 --> 0:02:36.959 the system of payments to the families of prisoners and martyrs, 0:02:37.600 --> 0:02:42.800 and promised broader reform of governance, financial transparency in the 0:02:42.960 --> 0:02:49.000 education system, including international oversight to guard against the incitement 0:02:49.280 --> 0:02:53.600 of violence and hatred. These detailed and significant commitments have 0:02:53.960 --> 0:02:58.359 been given even greater weight by the Arab leagues unprecedented 0:02:58.360 --> 0:03:01.040 demand for Hamas to end it to rule in Gaza 0:03:01.520 --> 0:03:05.200 and surrender its weapons to the Palestinian authority. 0:03:05.520 --> 0:03:08.120 So every Western country is already speaking as if the 0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:11.519 Palestinian Authority is going to be the authority for all 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:16.679 of Palestine, including Gaza. So it strengthens those diplomatic relations. 0:03:16.760 --> 0:03:21.000 It probably also will help the Palestinian authority rebuild to 0:03:21.080 --> 0:03:23.839 a place where they do have authority because they will 0:03:23.840 --> 0:03:25.919 have Western support in this. 0:03:26.400 --> 0:03:28.760 And we've had many times in the lead up to 0:03:28.800 --> 0:03:34.280 this announcement the criticism that recognizing Palestine now ultimately rewards 0:03:34.280 --> 0:03:37.520 the mus for their actions on October seven. So how 0:03:38.000 --> 0:03:41.080 is the Australian government responding to that claim? 0:03:41.360 --> 0:03:43.800 What's your answer to that assertion? 0:03:44.600 --> 0:03:49.080 Har Mass don't support two states. A mass support one state. 0:03:50.040 --> 0:03:53.080 In their words, from the River to the Sea, A 0:03:53.200 --> 0:03:57.000 mass do not support recognizing the right of Israel to exist. 0:03:58.160 --> 0:04:03.240 This is an opportunity to isolate Hamas that has been 0:04:04.160 --> 0:04:09.080 forged by the very clear statements of the Palestinian Authority 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:12.440 on June ten and the very clear statements of the 0:04:12.440 --> 0:04:13.040 Arab loke. 0:04:13.680 --> 0:04:17.520 At this point, Australia, like most of the Western world, 0:04:17.640 --> 0:04:22.120 is talking about establishing relations with the Palestinian authority, which 0:04:22.160 --> 0:04:25.279 is separate to Hamas, and they're still saying Hamas is 0:04:25.320 --> 0:04:30.520 not going to be part of any further negotiations. I mean, realistically, 0:04:30.680 --> 0:04:33.880 it is not for any Western government to say how 0:04:33.920 --> 0:04:38.240 the Palestinians form government. It's for the Palestinians to decide 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:40.800 who forms their government, and then it is for the 0:04:40.800 --> 0:04:44.680 countries to work out how they have those relations with 0:04:45.000 --> 0:04:47.960 you know, that government down the track. We do it 0:04:48.040 --> 0:04:51.600 with several nations that we don't have an exact agreement 0:04:51.680 --> 0:04:55.279 on or we have ideological opposition to, and it will 0:04:55.279 --> 0:04:58.680 be no different here. At this point. It's about, i suppose, 0:04:58.720 --> 0:05:02.520 diplomatically trying to say, well, we're not going to negotiate 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:07.719 with terrorists, but it is international law that we cannot 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:11.440 install a government in Palestine. That is for the Palestinians 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:13.960 to do so. At the moment, I think we're talking 0:05:14.040 --> 0:05:17.159 a big game, but the future is not ours to declare. 0:05:17.960 --> 0:05:20.440 Nevertheless, though we have had the ab and easy say 0:05:20.480 --> 0:05:22.559 that you know, as you've mentioned, there'll be no role 0:05:22.640 --> 0:05:24.920 for Hamas in a Palestinian state, and that the plan 0:05:25.080 --> 0:05:28.280 is for the Palestinian authority to be in charge. So 0:05:28.560 --> 0:05:32.200 I just wanted to ask what state the Palestinian authority 0:05:32.400 --> 0:05:34.760 is in and whether it's realistic that they would be 0:05:34.839 --> 0:05:35.559 ready to govern. 0:05:36.279 --> 0:05:39.440 I think that's why the recognition from the Western countries 0:05:39.560 --> 0:05:42.919 at this point is so important. There's so far to 0:05:43.000 --> 0:05:46.400 go in this. I mean, the Palestinian authority will need 0:05:46.880 --> 0:05:49.839 quite a bit of help in terms of the direction 0:05:50.040 --> 0:05:52.640 that it chooses to go. There is going to be 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:55.760 borders that need to be decided on, There's going to 0:05:55.800 --> 0:05:59.920 be you know, what role does Israel play in establishing 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:03.320 these two states? And there's also the question of what 0:06:03.480 --> 0:06:06.640 is left of Gaza in terms of there actually being 0:06:06.680 --> 0:06:09.960 a second state here, what is left of Palestine, what 0:06:10.120 --> 0:06:13.560 is the right of return? All of these other questions 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:16.240 that have not yet been reckoned with. There are no 0:06:16.400 --> 0:06:19.800 answers for from the Western community because at the moment, 0:06:20.000 --> 0:06:22.880 the end goal is to try and pressure Israel into 0:06:22.920 --> 0:06:28.080 stopping its military assault on Gaza. That right now is 0:06:28.120 --> 0:06:31.880 the goal of all the Western countries that have decided 0:06:31.960 --> 0:06:36.560 to finally recognize a Palestinian state. But in terms of 0:06:36.560 --> 0:06:40.520 what it means for Palestinians. It's really difficult to say, 0:06:40.720 --> 0:06:46.040 because it's not going to stop anything, and every country 0:06:46.080 --> 0:06:49.760 that has decided to recognize Palestine now has to follow 0:06:49.839 --> 0:06:52.919 through in concrete action to ensure that there is a 0:06:52.960 --> 0:06:55.560 Palestine left to recognize. 0:06:56.880 --> 0:07:01.039 Coming up, what recognizing Palestine means for Australia's relationship with 0:07:01.240 --> 0:07:04.960 Israel and the United States. 0:07:09.480 --> 0:07:13.240 If there is a concern on Australia's part about international 0:07:13.320 --> 0:07:15.720 law being violated here, I'm just wondering what further steps 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:18.600 might be taken here. Germany is going to block or 0:07:18.600 --> 0:07:22.520 suspend arm sales to Israel that could be used in Gaza. 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:25.480 What about the armored steel and the F thirty five 0:07:25.560 --> 0:07:27.480 components that Australia contributes. 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:28.480 Would they be blocked? 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:33.640 Oh, well, let's be clear, we don't supply weapons to Israel. 0:07:34.400 --> 0:07:37.280 The armed steel and the F thirty five components is 0:07:37.320 --> 0:07:38.160 what I'm asking about. 0:07:38.240 --> 0:07:41.280 The Australian government has also been criticized for selling weapon 0:07:41.320 --> 0:07:45.400 pats to Israel. So would recognition trigger any change or 0:07:45.400 --> 0:07:47.000 any review of that arrangement. 0:07:47.480 --> 0:07:50.480 Well, it probably already should have under international law. And 0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:53.200 if this ever gets to the Hague, which many believe 0:07:53.280 --> 0:07:56.080 that it eventually will. Australia, like all nations in the 0:07:56.120 --> 0:07:58.760 F thirty five supply chain, will have a case to answer. 0:07:59.160 --> 0:08:01.640 The answer from the Isustralian government is that we're not 0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:03.800 directly supplying weapons parts. 0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:07.360 Well, we're in F thirty five country and we have 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:11.080 been that for a couple of decades, and that is 0:08:11.080 --> 0:08:15.920 a multilateral arrangement with supply chains that are organized by 0:08:16.000 --> 0:08:19.120 Lockheed Martin in the United States and have multiple supplies 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:21.640 in respect of all of those supply chains. So really 0:08:21.880 --> 0:08:25.640 that is a very different question, and we are a 0:08:25.680 --> 0:08:27.240 part of that process. 0:08:27.480 --> 0:08:31.200 We're just supplying part non lethal parts that end up 0:08:31.240 --> 0:08:34.360 in these lethal planes that then end up dropping bombs 0:08:34.360 --> 0:08:39.040 on guars and civilians. It could instigate a review, but 0:08:39.120 --> 0:08:42.120 again this is going to depend on how much pressure 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:46.000 is applied to Israel. And the big sticking point here 0:08:46.400 --> 0:08:49.640 is the United States. The United States has shown no 0:08:49.800 --> 0:08:53.400 sign that it will be recognizing Palestine, that it's going 0:08:53.440 --> 0:08:56.760 to stop supplying arms to Israel, or indeed that it's 0:08:56.800 --> 0:08:59.800 going to support any of this international push to try 0:08:59.840 --> 0:09:04.600 to pressure Israel into complying with international law. So it 0:09:04.720 --> 0:09:07.920 really is going to depend on how the United States 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:11.079 acts here, how much pressure is put on the United 0:09:11.120 --> 0:09:14.880 States to start complying with its own international obligations, and 0:09:14.960 --> 0:09:18.000 how willing Australia is going to be as being part 0:09:18.160 --> 0:09:19.559 of that international pressure. 0:09:20.600 --> 0:09:23.200 And we know that Penny Will has already spoken to 0:09:23.600 --> 0:09:28.000 Secretary of State Marco Rubio. So what do you think 0:09:28.040 --> 0:09:31.680 that this move of recognizing a Palestinian state will mean 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:34.920 for our relationship with the US as it already caused tension. 0:09:35.280 --> 0:09:37.480 It has already caused tension, but I think that was 0:09:37.480 --> 0:09:40.560 coming regardless of whether or not Australia took this step 0:09:40.600 --> 0:09:43.120 now next week, last week, it didn't matter. 0:09:43.480 --> 0:09:47.360 On the Ruvio phone call, did you get any assurances 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:50.920 that our decision on this will not affect the rest 0:09:50.920 --> 0:09:53.480 of the biolateral relationship with the US given the Trump 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:56.720 administration's opposition, You're not expecting any blowback on things like 0:09:56.800 --> 0:09:58.400 trade or orcus or anything else. 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:02.320 We speak first and we make our sovereign decisions. But 0:10:02.400 --> 0:10:05.560 you will see from the reader. I think that the 0:10:05.600 --> 0:10:08.640 State Department have issued since the call. We spoke about 0:10:08.640 --> 0:10:12.480 a range of batterms, including the Indo Pacific. Insecurity in 0:10:12.520 --> 0:10:13.360 the Indo Pacific. 0:10:13.600 --> 0:10:16.000 It was interesting that the readout that the White House 0:10:16.080 --> 0:10:18.679 provided of that phone call, there was only a couple 0:10:18.679 --> 0:10:20.800 of lines and it essentially just said that it would 0:10:20.800 --> 0:10:24.240 discuss the Middle East as well as the strategic partnerships 0:10:24.240 --> 0:10:27.079 that Australia has throughout the Pacific. And I think that 0:10:27.080 --> 0:10:29.200 that is the line that Penny Wong is trying to 0:10:29.240 --> 0:10:31.480 speak to is that we're going to disagree on this, 0:10:31.640 --> 0:10:35.840 but our allyship is still quite tight when it comes 0:10:35.960 --> 0:10:39.160 to our region. We're just going to disagree over how 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:40.280 to handle the Middle East. 0:10:40.960 --> 0:10:44.760 And Benjamin Netanya who has said that recognition by Australia 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:48.480 would be shameful, and these comments come off the back 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:52.720 of Israel's Foreign minister calling Albneazi a liar for saying 0:10:52.720 --> 0:10:55.840 that aid was being restricted from coming into Gaza. So 0:10:56.000 --> 0:11:00.559 how is the Australian government attempting to navigate its relationship 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:02.120 with Israel in this moment. 0:11:02.920 --> 0:11:05.040 I think that there's been a lot of work that 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:08.880 the Australian government has put in to keep Israel's government 0:11:08.960 --> 0:11:11.480 in the loop of where Australia is thinking on this. 0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:15.720 There has been a lot of diplomatic pressure applied, and 0:11:15.800 --> 0:11:19.000 of course we've also seen the Australian government seek to 0:11:19.160 --> 0:11:22.880 soothe Israel at different times by saying we are addressing 0:11:23.120 --> 0:11:26.600 anti Semitism in Australia, we are reacting to that. What 0:11:26.679 --> 0:11:29.760 we are standing for is international law and this has 0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:32.920 all very much been couched in these diplomatic terms that 0:11:33.000 --> 0:11:38.920 Australia is upholding international law obligations and humanitarian law obligations. 0:11:39.320 --> 0:11:43.440 Australia didn't really start really strengthening its language until we 0:11:43.520 --> 0:11:46.520 saw the United Kingdom and Canada and parts of the 0:11:46.840 --> 0:11:50.400 U start to really toughen up their stance against Israel. 0:11:50.760 --> 0:11:54.360 And that started when the images of the Stage five 0:11:54.480 --> 0:11:59.439 malnutrition started coming through from Palestinian journalists, when they started 0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:05.280 showing the real effects of a deliberate starvation campaign on 0:12:05.360 --> 0:12:09.000 a civilian population. And that's when we saw the international 0:12:09.080 --> 0:12:13.520 community really start to step up. So Australia has been 0:12:13.559 --> 0:12:15.880 able to toughen its language, but of course I think 0:12:15.920 --> 0:12:19.720 we also need to recognize the Australian people and the 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:25.080 protesters and that giant display in Sydney not so long ago. 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:29.280 It's no surprise that the Australian government has been pressured 0:12:29.600 --> 0:12:34.800 into moving perhaps faster than they anticipated, and it's because 0:12:35.040 --> 0:12:38.440 of the groundswell of support from Australian people who said. 0:12:38.440 --> 0:12:43.240 Enough, why and me, thank you so much for via Tan. 0:12:44.120 --> 0:13:00.000 Thank you. 0:13:04.800 --> 0:13:07.719 Also in the news today, a journalist described as one 0:13:07.720 --> 0:13:12.079 of Al Jazeera's most recognizable faces reporting from Gaza has 0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:15.840 been killed alongside four colleagues in an Israeli air strike. 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:19.720 Anas Al Sharif, who was twenty eight, was among a 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:22.120 group of Al Jazeera's staff who died in a strike 0:13:22.200 --> 0:13:25.440 on a tent near Schifa Hospital in Gaza City on Sunday. 0:13:25.800 --> 0:13:31.880 According to Gaza officials and Al Jazeera, and electric car 0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:34.559 drivers could be hit with a road tax, with federal 0:13:34.640 --> 0:13:38.320 MP Tanya Plibersek framing it a sensible move as more 0:13:38.320 --> 0:13:41.679 people switch to evs. The comments come ahead of the 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:45.960 federal government's Productivity roundtable next week. I'm Ruby Jones. This 0:13:46.040 --> 0:14:00.960 is seven am. See you tomorrow.