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Speaker 1: Welcome to One on one by Fear and Breed. I'm

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Speaker 1: Natalie MacDonald. My guest today is Elizabeth Roderick. Elizabeth has

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Speaker 1: dedicated her life to improving the lives of others. As

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Speaker 1: Australia's longest serving Sex Discrimination Commissioner, she led the way

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Speaker 1: on key policies like gender equality, paid parental leave and

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Speaker 1: combating sexual harassment. She's worked with the United Nations on

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Speaker 1: humans rights violations and women's rights at work. She's the

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Speaker 1: founder of the Champions Have Changed strategy, working with hundreds

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Speaker 1: of CEOs to bring about real change in gender equality.

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Speaker 1: It's an extraordinary CV, and frankly that is barely scratching

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Speaker 1: the surface. Elizabeth Roderick, Welcome to one on one.

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Speaker 2: Thanks very much, Natalie. Lovely to be in conversation with you.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, Elizabeth. I have to ask quite a broad opener,

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Speaker 1: what drives you? We've just gone through, you know, as

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Speaker 1: I say, a small snapshot of your CV, but what

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Speaker 1: has been the driving force behind that?

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Speaker 2: It's interesting, isn't I often try and reflect on that.

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Speaker 2: I think, Natalie, I was born an identical twin, and

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Speaker 2: I actually think when you're born an identical twin, right

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Speaker 2: from the get go, you start to understand what fairness

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Speaker 2: looks like. For example, if your twin sister gets a

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Speaker 2: present which is better than your present, all of a sudden,

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Speaker 2: you know the world's unfair and you've got to start

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Speaker 2: to do something about it. So I think maybe it's

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Speaker 2: baked into my DNA from the get go. And then

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Speaker 2: as I've been through my life, I grew up in

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Speaker 2: a family which was quite a feminized family. My mother

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Speaker 2: wouldn't have described herself necessarily as a feminist, but I

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Speaker 2: see her as someone who was really always strongly in

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Speaker 2: favor of gender equality and advocating for women's rights. I mean,

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Speaker 2: she made a lot of decisions and my father did

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Speaker 2: a lot of a housework, but they shared equally. And

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Speaker 2: then I think when I was coming into the university

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Speaker 2: in the nineteen eighties, we had the you know, first

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Speaker 2: the Sex Discrimination Act came into being in nineteen eighty four,

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Speaker 2: and it was a time when the women's movement in

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Speaker 2: Australia was really taking off and I was lucky enough to,

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Speaker 2: you know, to ride part of that wave. So I

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Speaker 2: think that's probably what shaped me, together with the fact

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Speaker 2: that my father was a physician and he ran a

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Speaker 2: medical practice, and my twin sister and I we right

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Speaker 2: from a get go, from about age four, we would

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Speaker 2: take the patient's cups of tea and you know, lick

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Speaker 2: stamps on letters and whatever. But we were sitting around

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Speaker 2: people who often were in distress, who were there in

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Speaker 2: vulnerable moments because my father developed the first ever nuclear

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Speaker 2: medicine practice, so imaging technology, so he was looking to

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Speaker 2: see whether people had bone tumors, whether they had brain tumors,

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Speaker 2: you know, really quite significant illnesses. And I think growing

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Speaker 2: up in that environment, being in the surgery, being with

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Speaker 2: people in very vulnerable moments, also shaped me in a

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Speaker 2: way that I have a natural affinity to sitting with

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Speaker 2: human suffering as well. I mean, that's a lot of

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Speaker 2: my work. My work goes to the core of human dignity,

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Speaker 2: and listening to the people's stories all across the world

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Speaker 2: is a key part of what I do. And I

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Speaker 2: think that started when I was a very young child.

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Speaker 1: It's amazing to hear how that was cultivated and shaped

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Speaker 1: and supported clearly right from childhood. You mentioned having a

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Speaker 1: twin sister, and I read the most amazing story about

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Speaker 1: a coin toss that almost prompted a different study and

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Speaker 1: career path entirely. Can you share that with us?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you're absolutely right, Natalie. I mean, the fact is,

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Speaker 2: my twin sister and I we went to separate schools.

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Speaker 2: I mean, my mum believed fundamentally that competition should be

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Speaker 2: something for the outside world, but she didn't want competition

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Speaker 2: in her own family. So she sent my sister in

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Speaker 2: one direction and my dad drove me in the other direction.

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Speaker 2: And from kindergarten we're at the different schools. And then

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Speaker 2: when it came time to decide what our careers would be,

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Speaker 2: and interestingly, out of five hundred, because the HSC was

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Speaker 2: out of five hundred, then we ended up with four

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Speaker 2: marks difference despite having been in different schools for the

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Speaker 2: entire time of our schooling. So we were both able

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Speaker 2: to get into various courses. But we both decided we

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Speaker 2: were interested in physiotherapy because that's what my mother had

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Speaker 2: developed a really strong career in, but also law, because

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Speaker 2: we thought law was also a profession where you could

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Speaker 2: start your own business and if you wanted to have

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Speaker 2: a family, you would be more ab to integrate work

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Speaker 2: and life. I mean, how we came up with that idea,

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Speaker 2: I just can't imagine. But anyway, so we decided to

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Speaker 2: toss a coin, which we did. I'd love to tell

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Speaker 2: you we did some detailed analysis about each of our

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Speaker 2: attributes and whatever we didn't. We tossed a coin, and

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Speaker 2: my sister became a physio and I became a lawyer.

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Speaker 2: And that's that's where it ended up.

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Speaker 1: Just imagine the different career path you could have ended

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Speaker 1: up following. And to speak to your career path, fast

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Speaker 1: forward to two thousand and seven. You've been appointed Australia's

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Speaker 1: Sex Discrimination Commissioner at a time when Australia had its

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Speaker 1: first female PM, a female head of state, female New

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Speaker 1: South Wales governor, and the nation's first paid parental leave scheme.

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Speaker 1: But the broader outlook that you actually inherited was deeply

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Speaker 1: different to that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly right. I mean it was interesting though.

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Speaker 2: I go into boys' schools and I get the question,

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Speaker 2: do you have to be a woman to lead in

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Speaker 2: this country? Because even then, I think we had a

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Speaker 2: female press here in New South Wales as well, so

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Speaker 2: everyone was female, But as you correctly say, we didn't

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Speaker 2: have a critical massive women coming up behind to be

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Speaker 2: the next female prime minister or a head of State

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Speaker 2: or indeed premiere. So and what I started to notice

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Speaker 2: in two thousand and seven as well is that the

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Speaker 2: world was shifting slightly. I mean, we've seen a huge

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Speaker 2: shift in the last couple of years, but it was

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Speaker 2: shifting slightly, sometimes in a really positive way, but also

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Speaker 2: we were starting to see a little bit of a

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Speaker 2: backlash coming through on gender equality. And I decided at

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Speaker 2: that time, as I was stepping up into the role

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Speaker 2: of Sex Discrimination Commissioner, that I was going to go

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Speaker 2: out all across Australia on what I called my listening

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Speaker 2: tour to really understand what inequality and particularly gender inequality

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Speaker 2: looked like, so to really understand the lived experience. And

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Speaker 2: that's what I decided to do.

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Speaker 1: Stay with me, Elizabeth will be back in just a minute.

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Speaker 1: I'm speaking with former Sex Discrimination Commissioner Elizabeth Broderick. I'm

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Speaker 1: curious to understand Elizabeth. You mentioned there, you know, you

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Speaker 1: were seeing a change in conversation, and obviously in twenty

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Speaker 1: ten you launched Champions have changed coalition. Is there anything

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Speaker 1: that you'd have done differently perhaps then or even in

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Speaker 1: the years since.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting. I think you know, as I was going around,

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Speaker 2: I actually started to understand that gender stereotypes and norms

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Speaker 2: actually imprison men as well as women, and I don't

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Speaker 2: think i'd ever understood that before, and that really took

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Speaker 2: me on a journey where I started to conceive the strategy,

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Speaker 2: which ended up being male champions have changed, but which

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Speaker 2: engaged men as strong allies in creating gender equality, because

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Speaker 2: up until then men were seen to be the problem.

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Speaker 2: And indeed, what I start to understand was that gender

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Speaker 2: quality is about the redistribution of power, whether that's in

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Speaker 2: the family, in an organization, or indeed in the nation,

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Speaker 2: and that if we want to redistribute power, then we

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Speaker 2: need to engage with those who hold the leavers of power.

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Speaker 2: And then, as today, and we've seen a huge pushback today,

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Speaker 2: but then, as today, the people who held the leavers

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Speaker 2: of power were largely, not exclusively, but largely men. And

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Speaker 2: so the engagement of men was very, very important at

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Speaker 2: that time, and I think it continues to be really important.

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Speaker 2: But maybe if I looked at something that we would

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Speaker 2: have done differently is maybe it's about the language we

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Speaker 2: use and the way we express gender quality, because I

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Speaker 2: still think there's a strong view that gender quality benefits women,

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Speaker 2: but it doesn't benefit anyone else. And we know from

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Speaker 2: all the research that that's just not true. When you

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Speaker 2: invest in women, you invest in families. You strengthen families,

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Speaker 2: you strengthen communities, you build strong economies, you build greater

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Speaker 2: levels of peace, prosperity, social cohesion in the world. That's

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Speaker 2: the benefit of gender quality, not a scenario where women

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Speaker 2: are winning and men are losing. And I think there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of misconception around that.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned male champions have changed it did? It started

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Speaker 1: as a group of six has now scaled into a

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Speaker 1: global movement. It's the kind of scale that most change

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Speaker 1: makers or business leaders dream of. But how did you

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Speaker 1: begin and really what was that accelerator?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we began, as I said, by understanding that men

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Speaker 2: were absolutely critical to this picture. And then I went

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Speaker 2: out and talked to influential, powerful men. Now I'd love

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Speaker 2: to tell you did an analysis about which man was

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Speaker 2: the most powerful or whatever. I didn't. I just picked

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Speaker 2: up the phone and rang some of the men that

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Speaker 2: i'd read about in the paper or you know that

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Speaker 2: I knew were leading some of the iconic institutions in Australia,

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Speaker 2: and I put before them. Some of the data which

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Speaker 2: I spoke to, the gender inequality, the fact that only

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Speaker 2: eight percent of board directors in the country were female,

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Speaker 2: that only two percent of CEOs of organizations, you know,

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Speaker 2: corporate organizations, were female. And the first man I spoke

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Speaker 2: to he had twins, a twin, a boy and a girl.

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Speaker 2: And I figured that if I showed him that his

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Speaker 2: daughter would never have the same opportunities as her twin brother,

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Speaker 2: all because she was born again, then maybe he would

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Speaker 2: be engaged to come on board with me. And indeed

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Speaker 2: that's exactly what happened. You know, he saw that gender inequality,

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Speaker 2: he saw it at a very personal level, and he

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Speaker 2: became probably my first champion of change. And then I

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Speaker 2: went out and recruited a small number of others. We

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Speaker 2: probably started with about eight. And indeed, the first few

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Speaker 2: months it was late running group therapy, like everyone was,

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Speaker 2: oh my god, we've tried this and that's not working.

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Speaker 2: And then she left, and then we only had one

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Speaker 2: woman left, and then that one left. But over time

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Speaker 2: we started to understand, you know what, we've got power,

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Speaker 2: we've got influence. You know, small groups can change the world,

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Speaker 2: So why don't we step up in a much more intentional,

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Speaker 2: action based manner, and that's really where the strategy started.

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Speaker 2: And as you said, Natalie has gone out to around

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Speaker 2: two hundred and sixty CEOs of the most influential organizations

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Speaker 2: in the country sharing what they're learning. Because we know,

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Speaker 2: creating more gender equal organizations and more gender equal nation,

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Speaker 2: there is no one silver bullet. You're testing, trialing, adapting

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Speaker 2: and learning from that process. So all of those CEOs

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Speaker 2: are sharing with each other. They're sharing across sectors for example,

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Speaker 2: you know the property sectors, sharing with the sports sectors,

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Speaker 2: sharing with the military and command and control organizations, mining

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Speaker 2: and resources, transport companies, all learning from each other about

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Speaker 2: what strategies are working and what strategies wan't. And that's

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Speaker 2: a pretty powerful combination and it's powerful for this moment

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Speaker 2: when we're seeing significant shifts.

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Speaker 1: And just lastly, Elizabeth, obviously you've worked in Australia, you've

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Speaker 1: worked with the UN global, you've shared over the last

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Speaker 1: after over our conversation, you know, conversations with leaders. To

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Speaker 1: your mind, what skills must leaders of the future possess,

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Speaker 1: particularly an environment as you say, around stagnating productivity of AI.

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Speaker 1: What are the must have skills that leader of the

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Speaker 1: future need.

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Speaker 2: I mean they must have. Skills for me are very

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Speaker 2: human skills. They're skills of empathy, the ability for deep

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Speaker 2: listening to really understand, I think is an absolute core

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Speaker 2: leadership skill. Skills like collaboration, vulnerability. I mean, the leaders

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Speaker 2: that are doing the best in this moment are those

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Speaker 2: who are prepared to be vulnerable to really admit that

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Speaker 2: they don't know what the answers are. I mean, most

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Speaker 2: of us don't even know what questions to ask anymore.

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Speaker 2: We're just learning through experimenting, through you know, interacting with

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Speaker 2: people in deeply respectful ways. So I think all those

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Speaker 2: skills are very important. And for me, yes, of course,

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Speaker 2: you need strong strategic skills. You need to be able

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Speaker 2: to have a vision and communicate that vision, but you

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Speaker 2: need to inspire because I do worry Nadie the in

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Speaker 2: this moment, there's a lot of narrative which is about

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Speaker 2: which is quite distressing. It's all about deficit, and I

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Speaker 2: think we as leaders need to provide hope because it's

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Speaker 2: such an interesting time to be alive. I mean, in

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Speaker 2: my world, in human rights, what I'm seeing is, you know,

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Speaker 2: a backlash against human rights democracy the rule of law,

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Speaker 2: and I could be really bound down by all that,

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Speaker 2: I could start to slide down a slippery slope. But

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Speaker 2: it's the small shifts and steps that every day people

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Speaker 2: all across the world, and everyday Australians most importantly, are

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Speaker 2: making to improve our world. That's what gives me inspiration.

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Speaker 2: It's the stories of courage that I listen to of

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Speaker 2: the people that I meet out in the field, whether

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Speaker 2: that's you know, down the bottom of a mine in

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Speaker 2: in Mongolia or indeed in an office block in Sydney.

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Speaker 2: You know, those people who care enough to take intentional

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Speaker 2: steps to build higher levels of gender qualium at the

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Speaker 2: end of the day, a better world. So I think,

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Speaker 2: you know, all those skills are ones that leaders need,

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Speaker 2: particularly hope and courage. They're both like muscles. The more

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Speaker 2: you use them, the easier it becomes. That's what I've found.

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Speaker 2: And optimism my final word. You know, optimism is so

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Speaker 2: very important in this moment.

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Speaker 1: Elizabeth, thank you so much for talking to fear and greed.

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Speaker 2: Thank you very much.

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Speaker 1: That was Elizabeth Roderick, former Australian Sex Discrimination Commissioner and

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Speaker 1: founder of Champions of Change coalition. I'm Natalie McDonald. And

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Speaker 1: this is one on one by fear and greed,