WEBVTT - #1958 Puppy Cuddles - Dr. Sam Casey 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:01.080 I'll get a team. 0:00:01.120 --> 0:00:03.960 Welcome to another installment of the Bloody You Project, or 0:00:04.160 --> 0:00:06.920 just the You Project, Bloody You Project, the You Project. 0:00:06.920 --> 0:00:07.480 Your choice. 0:00:07.520 --> 0:00:11.360 Doctor Sam Casey has been many times on the show, 0:00:11.400 --> 0:00:13.360 but not being here for a little while because we 0:00:13.360 --> 0:00:15.120 were renegotiating her contract. 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:18.000 Are you happy with the way it's turned out? 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:20.759 Yeah, it's all panning out very well. 0:00:21.440 --> 0:00:25.000 Yeah, what is four times zero? I think we're on 0:00:25.040 --> 0:00:27.440 the same but you did you know, your manager did 0:00:27.480 --> 0:00:29.200 go hard, so you know here, we. 0:00:29.200 --> 0:00:31.960 Are great to be here. 0:00:32.520 --> 0:00:35.040 I'm being silly, of course. How are you, doctor Sam? 0:00:35.120 --> 0:00:38.360 Have you had a good few months? How is life 0:00:38.360 --> 0:00:41.080 on the other side of Australia? Of course you're in 0:00:41.600 --> 0:00:44.080 I know you're in in wa but are you You're 0:00:44.120 --> 0:00:46.040 in Perth, Perth or you near Perth? 0:00:46.400 --> 0:00:49.040 No, I'm actually Kartha, so I'm in the desert. 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:52.440 But it is Oh, you're way up, that's right, that's right. 0:00:53.159 --> 0:00:56.440 I'm extremely cold here, like it's it's ridiculously cold. I'm 0:00:56.480 --> 0:00:58.800 not used to it, so it's like my body'scclarimatized to 0:00:58.840 --> 0:01:00.600 desert life. And then we get to winter and we 0:01:00.680 --> 0:01:03.320 have like a month or two of absolutely freezing weather. 0:01:03.440 --> 0:01:05.800 So I've got I mean, now I'm good. I've got 0:01:05.800 --> 0:01:06.280 a heater on. 0:01:06.400 --> 0:01:09.200 But yeah, generally I've got my winter jackets and I'm 0:01:09.480 --> 0:01:10.000 lay it up. 0:01:10.880 --> 0:01:14.039 Let's put this in perspective. When you say it's freezing, 0:01:14.560 --> 0:01:16.080 what's the temperature in the morning. 0:01:16.480 --> 0:01:21.120 It's probably like in their twenties, but for me it's freezing. Ah. 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:23.840 I know you probably don't get my pain. 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:28.360 I definitely don't get your pain. We would in today's 0:01:28.400 --> 0:01:30.440 top temperature in Melbourne was thirteen. 0:01:31.720 --> 0:01:34.400 Wow, that was the top the top. 0:01:35.360 --> 0:01:37.560 That was the warmest part of the day, and you're 0:01:37.600 --> 0:01:41.720 complaining about twenty in the My goodness. But it is funny. 0:01:41.720 --> 0:01:44.800 I guess you really get acclimatized to certain temperatures. Like 0:01:44.840 --> 0:01:47.960 what's your optimal We'll get on something more interesting in 0:01:47.960 --> 0:01:50.480 the moment. In a moment, what's your ideal if you 0:01:50.520 --> 0:01:52.480 could go, it's got to be this temperature all the time, 0:01:52.480 --> 0:01:54.480 if you had to be a temperature well. 0:01:54.240 --> 0:01:58.840 Probably early thirties, I reckon, really, yeah, that'd be great. 0:01:58.920 --> 0:02:03.040 That would kill me or drumming nuts. I definitely couldn't 0:02:03.080 --> 0:02:05.840 do that. All right, now, you haven't been here for 0:02:05.840 --> 0:02:09.919 a little while, so could you. I know, we've done 0:02:09.960 --> 0:02:14.240 this once or twice, but you know, frown newbies. For 0:02:14.280 --> 0:02:18.280 the people who have jumped on the new project trained 0:02:18.320 --> 0:02:21.760 to in the last couple of two, three, four months, 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:24.040 could you just give them a snapshot of who you 0:02:24.120 --> 0:02:24.960 are and what you do. 0:02:25.560 --> 0:02:26.480 Yep, of course. 0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:31.600 So I am a well originally trained as atal therapist. 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:35.160 I then became a parent myself, and I started to 0:02:35.200 --> 0:02:38.160 get in a retrained and got into maternal mental health, 0:02:39.320 --> 0:02:42.840 and then I decided to teach, because you're obviously doing 0:02:42.840 --> 0:02:44.920 play therapy as kids. I decided to focus all my 0:02:45.040 --> 0:02:49.200 energy on teaching professionals and parents how to prescribe therapeutic 0:02:49.280 --> 0:02:51.320 play because I think it needs to get out of the. 0:02:51.200 --> 0:02:53.600 Therapy room and into real life. 0:02:53.639 --> 0:02:57.200 I really believe in taking that therapeutic insight, yeah, out 0:02:57.200 --> 0:03:00.000 of that clinical environment and just into everyday life because 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:01.799 we all need it. We're all dealing with mental health 0:03:01.800 --> 0:03:04.200 on a daily basis. So that's kind of my bread 0:03:04.200 --> 0:03:07.960 and butter now and I've got in the area of 0:03:08.040 --> 0:03:10.000 training and play therapy. 0:03:10.200 --> 0:03:15.720 So yeah, we're talking before we went live about how 0:03:15.760 --> 0:03:19.760 both of us end up counseling or coaching other people 0:03:19.840 --> 0:03:22.720 who work in a similar space, like people who are 0:03:22.760 --> 0:03:28.160 psychologists or therapists or even psychiatrists, and which kind of 0:03:28.760 --> 0:03:31.200 initially it seems like why on earth would they come? 0:03:31.440 --> 0:03:35.720 But then the fact is everyone's human, everyone's normal. Just 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:39.480 because you have a qualification, a degree, a PhD, a title, 0:03:39.840 --> 0:03:43.320 doesn't mean that you don't have your own challenges and issues, 0:03:43.360 --> 0:03:45.880 that you don't have to talk through stuff, And that 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:49.160 knowing how something works, like the brain or the mind 0:03:49.240 --> 0:03:52.840 or human behavior doesn't mean that you're not going to 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:55.080 have your own challenges exactly. 0:03:55.240 --> 0:03:57.520 And I think, and I see this so often as well, 0:03:57.600 --> 0:04:02.480 you know, because we we actually equate knowing you know 0:04:02.600 --> 0:04:04.839 something to being able to do better. 0:04:04.840 --> 0:04:05.840 And this is where the shame comes. 0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:08.520 I get a lot of you know, trained like therapists 0:04:08.640 --> 0:04:11.080 or people in the health industry, and they come to 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:12.840 me and they're like, I should know better, I know 0:04:12.920 --> 0:04:15.760 this stuff, And so knowing better doesn't replace the fact 0:04:15.800 --> 0:04:19.200 that they didn't experience better. And so their experiences, right 0:04:19.240 --> 0:04:21.360 are what they're coming from. Like we're human, we all 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:23.320 have different experiences, and this is what we need to 0:04:23.680 --> 0:04:26.080 I guess, you know, fill those gaps in. And no 0:04:26.080 --> 0:04:28.200 matter how much knowledge we get, it's not going to 0:04:28.200 --> 0:04:28.800 fill in the gaps. 0:04:28.839 --> 0:04:31.640 We just need different experiences, we need healing experiences. 0:04:32.920 --> 0:04:35.200 So yeah, I think it's definitely, if anything, they have 0:04:35.200 --> 0:04:38.200 additional challenges because they know so much in such an 0:04:38.200 --> 0:04:40.800 intense amount of time and they haven't really had a 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:42.679 chance to integrate that in their lives. 0:04:42.800 --> 0:04:44.960 And then, yeah, they do put that pressure on trying 0:04:45.000 --> 0:04:46.839 to read more, learn more. What if I missed? 0:04:46.839 --> 0:04:48.560 Why can't I do this? And you get that from 0:04:48.600 --> 0:04:50.400 the general public too. Oh yeah, but you know this 0:04:50.480 --> 0:04:53.080 stuff like you should be all across it, And yeah, 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:55.520 they've really kind of dismissed the fact that they actually 0:04:55.600 --> 0:04:57.200 haven't experienced this stuff. 0:04:57.200 --> 0:04:59.000 They haven't experienced, you know, a lot. 0:04:58.880 --> 0:05:02.560 Of the the validation or the space to be able 0:05:02.600 --> 0:05:04.880 to be them and trust themselves and listen to their 0:05:04.960 --> 0:05:08.080 you know, their own guidance, I guess as well. 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:12.039 And it's it's interesting how you can have all the 0:05:12.080 --> 0:05:16.640 intellectual understanding, the knowledge, the research, the awareness, and you 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:19.760 can even know what's going on, but when you get 0:05:19.800 --> 0:05:23.680 trapped in that emotional loop you know or you're you're 0:05:23.760 --> 0:05:27.000 now feel like it doesn't sometimes it doesn't matter what 0:05:27.120 --> 0:05:31.279 you know when you feel fucking terrible, Like yeah, yeah, 0:05:31.360 --> 0:05:34.120 I get it, I get the science. I get the theory, 0:05:34.480 --> 0:05:38.279 but right now you do not understand the emotional state 0:05:38.400 --> 0:05:41.240 that I'm in. And despite the fact that I know 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:45.000 you know what to do in inverted commas, or I 0:05:45.080 --> 0:05:49.600 know the theory of this, I still feel grief. I 0:05:49.640 --> 0:05:53.679 still feel ashamed, I still feel sad, I still feel lonely, 0:05:54.120 --> 0:05:58.039 I still feel depressed. So knowing the theory of how 0:05:58.040 --> 0:06:01.800 to undo this or manage this or treat this doesn't 0:06:01.839 --> 0:06:03.000 snap me out of anything. 0:06:03.480 --> 0:06:05.440 No, it doesn't replace the need you know, for that 0:06:05.640 --> 0:06:06.920 rest or for that you know. 0:06:06.880 --> 0:06:07.600 Whatever it is. 0:06:07.680 --> 0:06:09.839 So you're right, I think if anything, it can I 0:06:09.880 --> 0:06:12.080 guess hinder us sometimes because we do get so stuck 0:06:12.120 --> 0:06:13.960 in our head and we're shaming ourselves more than we 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:17.119 are actually just creating more opportunity and space to actually 0:06:17.200 --> 0:06:19.640 process it or to just be right to go. I 0:06:19.640 --> 0:06:21.160 feel sad at I'm not going to try and fix 0:06:21.200 --> 0:06:21.880 myself right now. 0:06:21.880 --> 0:06:24.560 I'm just gonna sit in that, sit in that space. 0:06:24.640 --> 0:06:27.080 And what would I do for a friend that feels sad? 0:06:27.200 --> 0:06:29.320 You know, I would measure them, I would take care 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:31.159 of them. You know, why an't I doing that for myself? 0:06:31.200 --> 0:06:33.480 Why am I shaming myself in those moments like, that's 0:06:33.480 --> 0:06:35.919 something that we can really fit with. 0:06:37.040 --> 0:06:41.960 What's the intersection, sam between shame, which you mentioned a 0:06:42.000 --> 0:06:44.840 few times. That's an interesting term. It doesn't get brought 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:48.280 up that much on this show, but I'm interested in it. 0:06:48.400 --> 0:06:51.839 Self loathing and shame. Are they first cousins? 0:06:52.240 --> 0:06:55.159 They do? They hang out at the same bar. 0:06:56.000 --> 0:06:57.480 Yeah, Yeah, they go hand in hand. 0:06:57.520 --> 0:06:59.359 I like to think of I like to compare guilt 0:06:59.440 --> 0:07:02.880 and shame because guilt can be like I really didn't 0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:05.400 like my behavior right, like, so they feel really guilty 0:07:05.400 --> 0:07:08.120 about a behavior when against a value. Shame is like 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:11.880 I there is something wrong with me, like I, and 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:14.480 they're really hating on themselves as a person. They don't 0:07:14.480 --> 0:07:17.480 separate their behavior from them They're like, I've messed up. 0:07:17.600 --> 0:07:20.280 This is just a completely a me issue and there's 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:22.880 something inherently wrong with me. And so that's a problem. 0:07:22.880 --> 0:07:25.040 When we get into shame, we really struggle to find 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:27.920 a way back. We really struggle to be able to, yeah, 0:07:27.960 --> 0:07:30.040 separate the behavior from ourselves. 0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:31.840 And that's the big difference. 0:07:32.600 --> 0:07:34.920 Why do you think, Like, I mean, I know this 0:07:35.080 --> 0:07:37.160 is a there's not a single answer to this, but 0:07:38.520 --> 0:07:44.480 what what what what triggers that response that shame. 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:46.040 I feel a shamed. 0:07:45.840 --> 0:07:48.360 Is it because we don't live up to our own 0:07:48.600 --> 0:07:52.840 standards or we don't live our values or what is? 0:07:52.960 --> 0:07:53.520 What is it? 0:07:55.120 --> 0:07:57.040 That's such a good question because I think if we 0:07:57.120 --> 0:07:59.680 look at how that begins, right, we could have I 0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:02.080 don't know, had caregivers that also struggle to see us 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:03.679 separate from the behavior as well. 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:06.360 So they were just like, you should know better, like 0:08:06.760 --> 0:08:08.640 I've told you this before, and you keep doing it. 0:08:08.680 --> 0:08:11.240 And then the person's like, yeah, I did know this, 0:08:11.360 --> 0:08:13.000 and I kept doing it, Like there must be something 0:08:13.040 --> 0:08:15.200 wrong with me because if it, you know, why. 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:16.920 Haven't I been able to stop it? So there's that part. 0:08:17.200 --> 0:08:20.040 But then I also think there's this belief that we 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:21.800 can't come back from it, you know. So a lot 0:08:21.800 --> 0:08:23.520 of the time I've noticed and you know, I've done 0:08:23.520 --> 0:08:26.200 counseling and prisons and obviously with kids, and you see 0:08:26.240 --> 0:08:30.880 similar patterns if they deviated right from what is expected 0:08:30.880 --> 0:08:33.240 of them and they feel so guilty about that because 0:08:33.240 --> 0:08:35.040 you know, it's against their values and whatever else, but 0:08:35.200 --> 0:08:36.720 they don't know how to come back from that, They 0:08:36.720 --> 0:08:39.080 don't know how to recover, and so they just keep going. 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:41.240 So it's often not the thing that gets them of track. 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:43.000 That's a problem is that they get off track and 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:44.920 they just don't believe in their ability to come back. 0:08:45.640 --> 0:08:48.320 I've done it. It's no way you know forward with this. 0:08:48.440 --> 0:08:51.360 Instead, then they spiral and they continue to do bad 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:52.800 things to themselves or to others. 0:08:52.920 --> 0:08:54.920 They continue to put others down all themselves. 0:08:55.000 --> 0:08:56.680 So it really kind of comes down to that, I 0:08:56.679 --> 0:08:59.000 think self talk, which we often don't see with other people. 0:08:59.280 --> 0:09:03.480 We don't see how critical hour of themselves because we 0:09:03.520 --> 0:09:05.520 don't hear those voices, right, we just see how they 0:09:05.600 --> 0:09:08.079 treat others. We don't actually see that often people who 0:09:08.120 --> 0:09:10.200 are harming others actually harm themselves first. 0:09:10.440 --> 0:09:13.520 But the words that they say to themselves, And. 0:09:13.440 --> 0:09:16.240 What's what's in it for us? Like the beating out? 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:19.480 Is there any upside in? Like why do we why 0:09:19.480 --> 0:09:22.880 do we beat ourselves up? Surely we don't do like 0:09:23.120 --> 0:09:26.520 even though that seems self destructive or it is self destructive, 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:29.000 we must get something out of it in the moment. 0:09:29.080 --> 0:09:31.360 I'm such a fucking idiot, I always do this. 0:09:31.440 --> 0:09:35.160 I'm a loser, an an that's self loathing and that 0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:38.480 shame and that like, what what's the payoff in the 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:39.400 moment for us. 0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:42.480 Well, see, if you think about back again when we 0:09:42.480 --> 0:09:45.520 were children, there was something sometimes in our environment that 0:09:45.679 --> 0:09:48.120 is familiar about that, right that we're getting told off 0:09:48.120 --> 0:09:49.719 and you're doing this again and this is just how 0:09:49.760 --> 0:09:52.360 you are. And so if you could imagine that kind 0:09:52.400 --> 0:09:53.640 of talk when you're an adult. 0:09:53.440 --> 0:09:54.400 It feels familiar. 0:09:54.559 --> 0:09:56.640 Of course, I'm just an idyt That's why I did that, right, 0:09:57.080 --> 0:09:59.920 But this is actually going no, it's not. And you know, 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:01.920 often a lot of environments would have been like you're 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:03.959 just making excuses for yourself, you know, when you're trying 0:10:04.000 --> 0:10:06.319 to be kind and compassionate to yourself. So I do 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:09.040 think that there is this element as well though, of accountability, 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:09.959 and that's really important. 0:10:10.000 --> 0:10:10.559 So you've got the. 0:10:10.480 --> 0:10:12.880 Self compassion or you're kind to ourselves and you know, 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:15.720 something comes up and you give space for that, but 0:10:15.760 --> 0:10:18.520 then you also kind of hold yourself accountable to hang on. 0:10:18.600 --> 0:10:20.120 I said that this is what I stand for, and 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:21.320 I said that this is what I want to do 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:24.960 when I need to kind of you know, meet like 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:28.280 strive towards that I think about with the gym's Yes, 0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:30.040 this is why I think, you know, gym can be 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:34.200 really good for trauma survivors. But when you wake up 0:10:34.240 --> 0:10:36.319 in the morning, if you had a headache, right, a 0:10:36.400 --> 0:10:38.440 self compassionate response could be, you know what, I've got 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:41.000 a headache, Like it's you know, it's it's really bad. 0:10:41.040 --> 0:10:42.920 I'm actually gonna allow myself to rest for a bit. 0:10:42.960 --> 0:10:46.160 This doesn't mean that my plan's completely gone for the morning. 0:10:46.200 --> 0:10:47.640 I'm going to rest and see how I feel. So 0:10:47.679 --> 0:10:49.040 what you're doing is you're being in tune with your 0:10:49.040 --> 0:10:51.199 body and you're giving yourself rest. Now, a couple of 0:10:51.240 --> 0:10:53.240 days could pass and you're like, I still keep saying this, 0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:56.600 Like I'm actually I'm self sabotaging here, Like I'm not 0:10:56.679 --> 0:11:00.480 holding myself to this this activity that I know is 0:11:00.480 --> 0:11:01.880 going to make me feel better in the long run, 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:05.320 and I am just wanting this comfort rather than pushing myself. 0:11:05.320 --> 0:11:07.360 And so that's when you've got that self accountability right, 0:11:07.360 --> 0:11:08.160 where then you get out of. 0:11:08.120 --> 0:11:09.160 Bed and you push yourself. 0:11:09.400 --> 0:11:11.240 But I think both of those things can't be done 0:11:11.280 --> 0:11:14.200 from the external. Like we have lots of external reinforcements 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:16.240 in society these days, we need to learn and to 0:11:16.320 --> 0:11:19.520 develop this internal compass where we know, okay, this is 0:11:19.559 --> 0:11:21.240 where I need to keep compashion with myself and this 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:23.800 is when I need to be accountable and we keep switching, right, 0:11:23.880 --> 0:11:25.280 that's where you get that self trust. 0:11:26.120 --> 0:11:31.760 Mmm. How Like to me, it seems like in the 0:11:31.800 --> 0:11:34.400 middle of all of this, in order to be able 0:11:34.440 --> 0:11:40.760 to know this stuff, recognize this stuff, manage our motions 0:11:40.800 --> 0:11:46.920 and our mind and our behavior in real time, there 0:11:46.960 --> 0:11:51.240 seems to be a lot of self awareness required, like 0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:55.640 trying to understand me, Like me, trying to understand me 0:11:55.840 --> 0:12:00.960 is a cognitive shitfest because I'm me, right, Like, how 0:12:01.000 --> 0:12:03.880 on earth can I be objective about me? Because everything 0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:07.680 I think about me is subjective? Right, And me trying 0:12:07.720 --> 0:12:10.920 to understand my mind using my mind as the tool 0:12:11.240 --> 0:12:12.720 to understand itself. 0:12:13.200 --> 0:12:17.640 Like, and I know you get this right, Three. 0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:21.400 Of my listeners' heads just exploded, right, But because that's 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:26.120 so convoluted, But talk to me about my PhD is 0:12:26.120 --> 0:12:28.960 in self awareness. I'm really interested in just trying to 0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:33.480 understand and self manage and self reflect and all of 0:12:33.480 --> 0:12:35.720 that in the middle of a stuff. 0:12:36.320 --> 0:12:37.640 Yeah, yeah, do you know what I mean? 0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:39.720 Yeah? 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:38.400 I do. 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:43.120 And I think this is what's difficult, right, because you're right, 0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:46.520 you're using your own mind to I guess, assess your 0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:49.760 own mind to judge your own mind. But the problem 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:51.200 is then what we do is we go to the 0:12:51.200 --> 0:12:52.920 other end of the extreme and we give that to 0:12:53.000 --> 0:12:55.079 an external person. I'll you know, people go to a 0:12:55.160 --> 0:12:57.920 side and say, assess me, you know, do this questionnaire 0:12:57.960 --> 0:12:59.760 with me, tell me what my issue is. And so 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:02.360 hasn't lived your life, They don't know all your experiences. 0:13:02.360 --> 0:13:04.679 They could have never known to the level of steps 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:06.079 that you have walked your path. 0:13:06.600 --> 0:13:08.880 And so there is somewhere in the middle there right 0:13:09.000 --> 0:13:09.600 where we. 0:13:09.480 --> 0:13:13.400 Can reflect, we can journal things out, we can look 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:15.320 at our own loops and then yeah, it does become. 0:13:15.120 --> 0:13:17.520 Really helpful to talk it over with someone. 0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:19.400 And you know, therapist is one of those going and 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:21.040 this is what I'm saying, and this is what I think, 0:13:21.080 --> 0:13:23.640 give me something else here is there a blind spot 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:25.840 that I've missed, like challenging me, ask me questions? 0:13:25.840 --> 0:13:28.600 And I think this is where critical reflection comes really good. 0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:33.360 So we often engage in normal reflection, which is what happened? 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:35.240 How did I feel about it? What could I do next? 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:35.480 Time? 0:13:35.600 --> 0:13:38.280 Critical reflection is where you get deeper and you go 0:13:38.640 --> 0:13:41.160 why do I believe that what was my perception of 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:43.880 that thing? What are the assumptions that I'm holding about 0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:44.199 this thing? 0:13:44.240 --> 0:13:46.679 What are my biases? What are my core beliefs around it? 0:13:46.880 --> 0:13:48.240 So then we get deeper. 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:50.480 And I think if we're just asking ourselves the right questions, 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:53.439 we could also go on that journey where we're continually 0:13:54.000 --> 0:13:56.560 challenging ourselves and we are looking for this is what 0:13:56.600 --> 0:13:58.480 I think about it? What else could be true? Give 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:01.040 me five other options? Right, also be ways that we 0:14:01.080 --> 0:14:01.720 could perceive this. 0:14:02.679 --> 0:14:04.720 Do you think also just going well, this is what 0:14:04.760 --> 0:14:06.640 I think but could be totally wrong? 0:14:07.880 --> 0:14:10.240 Yeah, Oh, I mean that's okay. That is a definition 0:14:10.280 --> 0:14:13.280 of psychological flexibility. And often I think people like you know, 0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:16.560 they call people contradictions or that they're but no, that's 0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:21.160 actually psychological flexibility, which is not being so rigid about 0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:23.600 life and being able to adapt and knowing that really 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:25.760 life exists among the grats, not just a black and 0:14:25.760 --> 0:14:28.760 white situation. This is you know, we often have to 0:14:28.760 --> 0:14:31.320 really get comfortable with that great. 0:14:31.120 --> 0:14:33.400 Well, when do you think, I mean, as much as 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:37.280 you can turn down the emotion and the self protection 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:41.160 and the ego and all the bullshit that comes with 0:14:41.360 --> 0:14:43.200 all the great and all the bullshit that comes with 0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:47.840 being a human right, if I think about myself, all 0:14:47.840 --> 0:14:51.880 the things that I've thought and taught and shared, spoken about, 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:56.040 acted on, executed, there have been so many things over 0:14:56.040 --> 0:15:00.000 the years that I was just completely fucking wrong about right, 0:14:59.600 --> 0:15:01.800 some a bit wrong, some are a little wrong, some 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:02.560 are kind of right. 0:15:02.640 --> 0:15:03.600 There was truth in it. 0:15:04.080 --> 0:15:06.240 But then things which I mentioned too many times on 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:09.080 this show but not to you, like the food pyramid 0:15:09.160 --> 0:15:11.960 that I taught for twenty years because that was what 0:15:12.000 --> 0:15:13.840 I thought was correct, and that was what I was 0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:16.320 taught at university and that was science and blah blah, 0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:18.760 and then you go, oh, no, wrong, you know, or 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:23.600 but just I think if you can kind of pull 0:15:23.680 --> 0:15:25.880 back the ego a bit and just go, well, of 0:15:25.960 --> 0:15:29.800 course I could be wrong. I've gotten thousands of things 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:31.840 wrong so far in my life. 0:15:32.120 --> 0:15:33.120 The chances of me. 0:15:33.240 --> 0:15:38.120 Not getting something wrong today anything pretty much zero and 0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:43.400 every day. But what we were so self protective, right. 0:15:43.640 --> 0:15:45.080 Well, yeah, I mean know, that's even a good point 0:15:45.120 --> 0:15:46.720 the way that you said it, because we could look 0:15:46.720 --> 0:15:48.320 at that and go, I just keep getting things wrong, 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:49.920 so I'm probably going to get it wrong. But also 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:51.640 it was probably right at the time, and then. 0:15:51.520 --> 0:15:52.560 Things change and evolved. 0:15:52.880 --> 0:15:54.680 We know what we know at one point, right, then 0:15:54.680 --> 0:15:57.120 we gain more knowledge and experience, and then we change 0:15:57.120 --> 0:15:59.240 our minds, and that is I mean, honestly, I love 0:15:59.240 --> 0:16:01.400 those examples. I can look back and go, I believe this, 0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:04.040 and now I believe something really different because it reflects growths. 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:06.760 If you're still talk if you still hold onto the 0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:08.640 beliefs that you had X amount of times go and 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:11.200 you have not shifted that, then that could really indicate 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:12.720 a lack of growth. So I think it's really good 0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:14.800 that we're always evolving and we're always really open to 0:16:14.840 --> 0:16:16.280 that and going what I know now to be true 0:16:16.360 --> 0:16:17.640 is probably not going to be the same in a year, 0:16:17.640 --> 0:16:19.240 a couple of years, and that's okay. This is a 0:16:19.320 --> 0:16:23.320 journey off life and being a curious researcher. 0:16:22.880 --> 0:16:27.360 Right one hundred percent and being okay with not only 0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:30.080 being okay, but being comfortable with being wrong. And also 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:34.960 I think one of the challenges is when you believe 0:16:35.240 --> 0:16:39.440 a thing right and then your identity is intertwined with 0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:44.400 that belief, well that makes you pretty much unteachable, right, 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:48.720 because if you have a set belief and doctor Sam's 0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:52.360 identity is intertwined with that belief or that ideology or 0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:57.040 philosophy or whatever, and then I go, hey, Sam, I've 0:16:57.120 --> 0:16:59.360 just been doing on my own research. I've been talking 0:16:59.400 --> 0:17:02.440 to these people and guess what I mean. This is 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:06.880 a little bit you know. Then if your entire sense 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:08.879 of self or a lot of it is intertwined with 0:17:08.880 --> 0:17:11.320 that ideology, then you're not open. 0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:15.800 What happens to people They get really rigid because You're right, 0:17:16.359 --> 0:17:19.119 it shakes their sense of like their identity and how 0:17:19.119 --> 0:17:21.879 they see themselves and they just can't bear to see that. 0:17:21.960 --> 0:17:23.280 And I think I hear that a lot. 0:17:23.160 --> 0:17:28.040 Actually from adult adults whose parents just can't you know, 0:17:28.200 --> 0:17:31.280 be able to reflect upon certain things, and going yeah, actually, 0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:33.240 you know, I see that now that that could have 0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:34.000 really affected you. 0:17:34.080 --> 0:17:36.480 It's like, Nope, that's what I did, and I did 0:17:36.480 --> 0:17:37.080 the best. 0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:38.840 And I don't want to hear anything else because it 0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:42.200 really shakes and how they saw themselves right back then. 0:17:43.440 --> 0:17:46.760 Yeah, It's like I was really interested a few minutes 0:17:46.800 --> 0:17:50.040 ago when you were talking about you know, psychevals when 0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:53.520 someone goes and sits with somebody and they do you know, 0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:57.520 the you know, the mental health professional whoever it is, 0:17:57.680 --> 0:18:01.199 or the health professional does some kind of you know, 0:18:01.320 --> 0:18:04.800 personality profile or cognitive assessment or whatever, some kind of 0:18:04.800 --> 0:18:11.760 psychological evaluation. And then yeah, so the person who's doing 0:18:11.800 --> 0:18:16.040 the test is seeing somebody for you know, what is 0:18:16.119 --> 0:18:19.359 essentially a drop of water in a lifetime that is 0:18:19.400 --> 0:18:22.800 an ocean. Right, It's like, I'm I've never this person 0:18:22.840 --> 0:18:25.800 has been around for millions of minutes, and now I'm 0:18:25.840 --> 0:18:28.920