Speaker 1: I'll get a team.
Speaker 2: Welcome to another installment of the Bloody You Project, or
Speaker 2: just the You Project, Bloody You Project, the You Project.
Speaker 1: Your choice.
Speaker 2: Doctor Sam Casey has been many times on the show,
Speaker 2: but not being here for a little while because we
Speaker 2: were renegotiating her contract.
Speaker 1: Are you happy with the way it's turned out?
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's all panning out very well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what is four times zero? I think we're on
Speaker 2: the same but you did you know, your manager did
Speaker 2: go hard, so you know here, we.
Speaker 3: Are great to be here.
Speaker 2: I'm being silly, of course. How are you, doctor Sam?
Speaker 2: Have you had a good few months? How is life
Speaker 2: on the other side of Australia? Of course you're in
Speaker 2: I know you're in in wa but are you You're
Speaker 2: in Perth, Perth or you near Perth?
Speaker 3: No, I'm actually Kartha, so I'm in the desert.
Speaker 1: But it is Oh, you're way up, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 4: I'm extremely cold here, like it's it's ridiculously cold. I'm
Speaker 4: not used to it, so it's like my body'scclarimatized to
Speaker 4: desert life. And then we get to winter and we
Speaker 4: have like a month or two of absolutely freezing weather.
Speaker 3: So I've got I mean, now I'm good. I've got
Speaker 3: a heater on.
Speaker 4: But yeah, generally I've got my winter jackets and I'm
Speaker 4: lay it up.
Speaker 2: Let's put this in perspective. When you say it's freezing,
Speaker 2: what's the temperature in the morning.
Speaker 3: It's probably like in their twenties, but for me it's freezing. Ah.
Speaker 3: I know you probably don't get my pain.
Speaker 2: I definitely don't get your pain. We would in today's
Speaker 2: top temperature in Melbourne was thirteen.
Speaker 3: Wow, that was the top the top.
Speaker 2: That was the warmest part of the day, and you're
Speaker 2: complaining about twenty in the My goodness. But it is funny.
Speaker 2: I guess you really get acclimatized to certain temperatures. Like
Speaker 2: what's your optimal We'll get on something more interesting in
Speaker 2: the moment. In a moment, what's your ideal if you
Speaker 2: could go, it's got to be this temperature all the time,
Speaker 2: if you had to be a temperature well.
Speaker 4: Probably early thirties, I reckon, really, yeah, that'd be great.
Speaker 2: That would kill me or drumming nuts. I definitely couldn't
Speaker 2: do that. All right, now, you haven't been here for
Speaker 2: a little while, so could you. I know, we've done
Speaker 2: this once or twice, but you know, frown newbies. For
Speaker 2: the people who have jumped on the new project trained
Speaker 2: to in the last couple of two, three, four months,
Speaker 2: could you just give them a snapshot of who you
Speaker 2: are and what you do.
Speaker 3: Yep, of course.
Speaker 4: So I am a well originally trained as atal therapist.
Speaker 4: I then became a parent myself, and I started to
Speaker 4: get in a retrained and got into maternal mental health,
Speaker 4: and then I decided to teach, because you're obviously doing
Speaker 4: play therapy as kids. I decided to focus all my
Speaker 4: energy on teaching professionals and parents how to prescribe therapeutic
Speaker 4: play because I think it needs to get out of the.
Speaker 3: Therapy room and into real life.
Speaker 4: I really believe in taking that therapeutic insight, yeah, out
Speaker 4: of that clinical environment and just into everyday life because
Speaker 4: we all need it. We're all dealing with mental health
Speaker 4: on a daily basis. So that's kind of my bread
Speaker 4: and butter now and I've got in the area of
Speaker 4: training and play therapy.
Speaker 2: So yeah, we're talking before we went live about how
Speaker 2: both of us end up counseling or coaching other people
Speaker 2: who work in a similar space, like people who are
Speaker 2: psychologists or therapists or even psychiatrists, and which kind of
Speaker 2: initially it seems like why on earth would they come?
Speaker 2: But then the fact is everyone's human, everyone's normal. Just
Speaker 2: because you have a qualification, a degree, a PhD, a title,
Speaker 2: doesn't mean that you don't have your own challenges and issues,
Speaker 2: that you don't have to talk through stuff, And that
Speaker 2: knowing how something works, like the brain or the mind
Speaker 2: or human behavior doesn't mean that you're not going to
Speaker 2: have your own challenges exactly.
Speaker 4: And I think, and I see this so often as well,
Speaker 4: you know, because we we actually equate knowing you know
Speaker 4: something to being able to do better.
Speaker 3: And this is where the shame comes.
Speaker 4: I get a lot of you know, trained like therapists
Speaker 4: or people in the health industry, and they come to
Speaker 4: me and they're like, I should know better, I know
Speaker 4: this stuff, And so knowing better doesn't replace the fact
Speaker 4: that they didn't experience better. And so their experiences, right
Speaker 4: are what they're coming from. Like we're human, we all
Speaker 4: have different experiences, and this is what we need to
Speaker 4: I guess, you know, fill those gaps in. And no
Speaker 4: matter how much knowledge we get, it's not going to
Speaker 4: fill in the gaps.
Speaker 3: We just need different experiences, we need healing experiences.
Speaker 4: So yeah, I think it's definitely, if anything, they have
Speaker 4: additional challenges because they know so much in such an
Speaker 4: intense amount of time and they haven't really had a
Speaker 4: chance to integrate that in their lives.
Speaker 3: And then, yeah, they do put that pressure on trying
Speaker 3: to read more, learn more. What if I missed?
Speaker 4: Why can't I do this? And you get that from
Speaker 4: the general public too. Oh yeah, but you know this
Speaker 4: stuff like you should be all across it, And yeah,
Speaker 4: they've really kind of dismissed the fact that they actually
Speaker 4: haven't experienced this stuff.
Speaker 3: They haven't experienced, you know, a lot.
Speaker 4: Of the the validation or the space to be able
Speaker 4: to be them and trust themselves and listen to their
Speaker 4: you know, their own guidance, I guess as well.
Speaker 2: And it's it's interesting how you can have all the
Speaker 2: intellectual understanding, the knowledge, the research, the awareness, and you
Speaker 2: can even know what's going on, but when you get
Speaker 2: trapped in that emotional loop you know or you're you're
Speaker 2: now feel like it doesn't sometimes it doesn't matter what
Speaker 2: you know when you feel fucking terrible, Like yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: I get it, I get the science. I get the theory,
Speaker 2: but right now you do not understand the emotional state
Speaker 2: that I'm in. And despite the fact that I know
Speaker 2: you know what to do in inverted commas, or I
Speaker 2: know the theory of this, I still feel grief. I
Speaker 2: still feel ashamed, I still feel sad, I still feel lonely,
Speaker 2: I still feel depressed. So knowing the theory of how
Speaker 2: to undo this or manage this or treat this doesn't
Speaker 2: snap me out of anything.
Speaker 4: No, it doesn't replace the need you know, for that
Speaker 4: rest or for that you know.
Speaker 3: Whatever it is.
Speaker 4: So you're right, I think if anything, it can I
Speaker 4: guess hinder us sometimes because we do get so stuck
Speaker 4: in our head and we're shaming ourselves more than we
Speaker 4: are actually just creating more opportunity and space to actually
Speaker 4: process it or to just be right to go. I
Speaker 4: feel sad at I'm not going to try and fix
Speaker 4: myself right now.
Speaker 3: I'm just gonna sit in that, sit in that space.
Speaker 4: And what would I do for a friend that feels sad?
Speaker 4: You know, I would measure them, I would take care
Speaker 4: of them. You know, why an't I doing that for myself?
Speaker 4: Why am I shaming myself in those moments like, that's
Speaker 4: something that we can really fit with.
Speaker 2: What's the intersection, sam between shame, which you mentioned a
Speaker 2: few times. That's an interesting term. It doesn't get brought
Speaker 2: up that much on this show, but I'm interested in it.
Speaker 2: Self loathing and shame. Are they first cousins?
Speaker 1: They do? They hang out at the same bar.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, they go hand in hand.
Speaker 4: I like to think of I like to compare guilt
Speaker 4: and shame because guilt can be like I really didn't
Speaker 4: like my behavior right, like, so they feel really guilty
Speaker 4: about a behavior when against a value. Shame is like
Speaker 4: I there is something wrong with me, like I, and
Speaker 4: they're really hating on themselves as a person. They don't
Speaker 4: separate their behavior from them They're like, I've messed up.
Speaker 4: This is just a completely a me issue and there's
Speaker 4: something inherently wrong with me. And so that's a problem.
Speaker 4: When we get into shame, we really struggle to find
Speaker 4: a way back. We really struggle to be able to, yeah,
Speaker 4: separate the behavior from ourselves.
Speaker 3: And that's the big difference.
Speaker 2: Why do you think, Like, I mean, I know this
Speaker 2: is a there's not a single answer to this, but
Speaker 2: what what what what triggers that response that shame.
Speaker 1: I feel a shamed.
Speaker 2: Is it because we don't live up to our own
Speaker 2: standards or we don't live our values or what is?
Speaker 1: What is it?
Speaker 4: That's such a good question because I think if we
Speaker 4: look at how that begins, right, we could have I
Speaker 4: don't know, had caregivers that also struggle to see us
Speaker 4: separate from the behavior as well.
Speaker 3: So they were just like, you should know better, like
Speaker 3: I've told you this before, and you keep doing it.
Speaker 4: And then the person's like, yeah, I did know this,
Speaker 4: and I kept doing it, Like there must be something
Speaker 4: wrong with me because if it, you know, why.
Speaker 3: Haven't I been able to stop it? So there's that part.
Speaker 4: But then I also think there's this belief that we
Speaker 4: can't come back from it, you know. So a lot
Speaker 4: of the time I've noticed and you know, I've done
Speaker 4: counseling and prisons and obviously with kids, and you see
Speaker 4: similar patterns if they deviated right from what is expected
Speaker 4: of them and they feel so guilty about that because
Speaker 4: you know, it's against their values and whatever else, but
Speaker 4: they don't know how to come back from that, They
Speaker 4: don't know how to recover, and so they just keep going.
Speaker 3: So it's often not the thing that gets them of track.
Speaker 4: That's a problem is that they get off track and
Speaker 4: they just don't believe in their ability to come back.
Speaker 3: I've done it. It's no way you know forward with this.
Speaker 4: Instead, then they spiral and they continue to do bad
Speaker 4: things to themselves or to others.
Speaker 3: They continue to put others down all themselves.
Speaker 4: So it really kind of comes down to that, I
Speaker 4: think self talk, which we often don't see with other people.
Speaker 4: We don't see how critical hour of themselves because we
Speaker 4: don't hear those voices, right, we just see how they
Speaker 4: treat others. We don't actually see that often people who
Speaker 4: are harming others actually harm themselves first.
Speaker 3: But the words that they say to themselves, And.
Speaker 2: What's what's in it for us? Like the beating out?
Speaker 2: Is there any upside in? Like why do we why
Speaker 2: do we beat ourselves up? Surely we don't do like
Speaker 2: even though that seems self destructive or it is self destructive,
Speaker 2: we must get something out of it in the moment.
Speaker 1: I'm such a fucking idiot, I always do this.
Speaker 2: I'm a loser, an an that's self loathing and that
Speaker 2: shame and that like, what what's the payoff in the
Speaker 2: moment for us.
Speaker 4: Well, see, if you think about back again when we
Speaker 4: were children, there was something sometimes in our environment that
Speaker 4: is familiar about that, right that we're getting told off
Speaker 4: and you're doing this again and this is just how
Speaker 4: you are. And so if you could imagine that kind
Speaker 4: of talk when you're an adult.
Speaker 3: It feels familiar.
Speaker 4: Of course, I'm just an idyt That's why I did that, right,
Speaker 4: But this is actually going no, it's not. And you know,
Speaker 4: often a lot of environments would have been like you're
Speaker 4: just making excuses for yourself, you know, when you're trying
Speaker 4: to be kind and compassionate to yourself. So I do
Speaker 4: think that there is this element as well though, of accountability,
Speaker 4: and that's really important.
Speaker 3: So you've got the.
Speaker 4: Self compassion or you're kind to ourselves and you know,
Speaker 4: something comes up and you give space for that, but
Speaker 4: then you also kind of hold yourself accountable to hang on.
Speaker 4: I said that this is what I stand for, and
Speaker 4: I said that this is what I want to do
Speaker 4: when I need to kind of you know, meet like
Speaker 4: strive towards that I think about with the gym's Yes,
Speaker 4: this is why I think, you know, gym can be
Speaker 4: really good for trauma survivors. But when you wake up
Speaker 4: in the morning, if you had a headache, right, a
Speaker 4: self compassionate response could be, you know what, I've got
Speaker 4: a headache, Like it's you know, it's it's really bad.
Speaker 4: I'm actually gonna allow myself to rest for a bit.
Speaker 4: This doesn't mean that my plan's completely gone for the morning.
Speaker 4: I'm going to rest and see how I feel. So
Speaker 4: what you're doing is you're being in tune with your
Speaker 4: body and you're giving yourself rest. Now, a couple of
Speaker 4: days could pass and you're like, I still keep saying this,
Speaker 4: Like I'm actually I'm self sabotaging here, Like I'm not
Speaker 4: holding myself to this this activity that I know is
Speaker 4: going to make me feel better in the long run,
Speaker 4: and I am just wanting this comfort rather than pushing myself.
Speaker 4: And so that's when you've got that self accountability right,
Speaker 4: where then you get out of.
Speaker 3: Bed and you push yourself.
Speaker 4: But I think both of those things can't be done
Speaker 4: from the external. Like we have lots of external reinforcements
Speaker 4: in society these days, we need to learn and to
Speaker 4: develop this internal compass where we know, okay, this is
Speaker 4: where I need to keep compashion with myself and this
Speaker 4: is when I need to be accountable and we keep switching, right,
Speaker 4: that's where you get that self trust.
Speaker 2: Mmm. How Like to me, it seems like in the
Speaker 2: middle of all of this, in order to be able
Speaker 2: to know this stuff, recognize this stuff, manage our motions
Speaker 2: and our mind and our behavior in real time, there
Speaker 2: seems to be a lot of self awareness required, like
Speaker 2: trying to understand me, Like me, trying to understand me
Speaker 2: is a cognitive shitfest because I'm me, right, Like, how
Speaker 2: on earth can I be objective about me? Because everything
Speaker 2: I think about me is subjective? Right, And me trying
Speaker 2: to understand my mind using my mind as the tool
Speaker 2: to understand itself.
Speaker 1: Like, and I know you get this right, Three.
Speaker 2: Of my listeners' heads just exploded, right, But because that's
Speaker 2: so convoluted, But talk to me about my PhD is
Speaker 2: in self awareness. I'm really interested in just trying to
Speaker 2: understand and self manage and self reflect and all of
Speaker 2: that in the middle of a stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: I do.
Speaker 4: And I think this is what's difficult, right, because you're right,
Speaker 4: you're using your own mind to I guess, assess your
Speaker 4: own mind to judge your own mind. But the problem
Speaker 4: is then what we do is we go to the
Speaker 4: other end of the extreme and we give that to
Speaker 4: an external person. I'll you know, people go to a
Speaker 4: side and say, assess me, you know, do this questionnaire
Speaker 4: with me, tell me what my issue is. And so
Speaker 4: hasn't lived your life, They don't know all your experiences.
Speaker 4: They could have never known to the level of steps
Speaker 4: that you have walked your path.
Speaker 3: And so there is somewhere in the middle there right
Speaker 3: where we.
Speaker 4: Can reflect, we can journal things out, we can look
Speaker 4: at our own loops and then yeah, it does become.
Speaker 3: Really helpful to talk it over with someone.
Speaker 4: And you know, therapist is one of those going and
Speaker 4: this is what I'm saying, and this is what I think,
Speaker 4: give me something else here is there a blind spot
Speaker 4: that I've missed, like challenging me, ask me questions?
Speaker 3: And I think this is where critical reflection comes really good.
Speaker 4: So we often engage in normal reflection, which is what happened?
Speaker 4: How did I feel about it? What could I do next?
Speaker 3: Time?
Speaker 4: Critical reflection is where you get deeper and you go
Speaker 4: why do I believe that what was my perception of
Speaker 4: that thing? What are the assumptions that I'm holding about
Speaker 4: this thing?
Speaker 3: What are my biases? What are my core beliefs around it?
Speaker 3: So then we get deeper.
Speaker 4: And I think if we're just asking ourselves the right questions,
Speaker 4: we could also go on that journey where we're continually
Speaker 4: challenging ourselves and we are looking for this is what
Speaker 4: I think about it? What else could be true? Give
Speaker 4: me five other options? Right, also be ways that we
Speaker 4: could perceive this.
Speaker 2: Do you think also just going well, this is what
Speaker 2: I think but could be totally wrong?
Speaker 4: Yeah, Oh, I mean that's okay. That is a definition
Speaker 4: of psychological flexibility. And often I think people like you know,
Speaker 4: they call people contradictions or that they're but no, that's
Speaker 4: actually psychological flexibility, which is not being so rigid about
Speaker 4: life and being able to adapt and knowing that really
Speaker 4: life exists among the grats, not just a black and
Speaker 4: white situation. This is you know, we often have to
Speaker 4: really get comfortable with that great.
Speaker 2: Well, when do you think, I mean, as much as
Speaker 2: you can turn down the emotion and the self protection
Speaker 2: and the ego and all the bullshit that comes with
Speaker 2: all the great and all the bullshit that comes with
Speaker 2: being a human right, if I think about myself, all
Speaker 2: the things that I've thought and taught and shared, spoken about,
Speaker 2: acted on, executed, there have been so many things over
Speaker 2: the years that I was just completely fucking wrong about right,
Speaker 2: some a bit wrong, some are a little wrong, some
Speaker 2: are kind of right.
Speaker 1: There was truth in it.
Speaker 2: But then things which I mentioned too many times on
Speaker 2: this show but not to you, like the food pyramid
Speaker 2: that I taught for twenty years because that was what
Speaker 2: I thought was correct, and that was what I was
Speaker 2: taught at university and that was science and blah blah,
Speaker 2: and then you go, oh, no, wrong, you know, or
Speaker 2: but just I think if you can kind of pull
Speaker 2: back the ego a bit and just go, well, of
Speaker 2: course I could be wrong. I've gotten thousands of things
Speaker 2: wrong so far in my life.
Speaker 1: The chances of me.
Speaker 2: Not getting something wrong today anything pretty much zero and
Speaker 2: every day. But what we were so self protective, right.
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, I mean know, that's even a good point
Speaker 4: the way that you said it, because we could look
Speaker 4: at that and go, I just keep getting things wrong,
Speaker 4: so I'm probably going to get it wrong. But also
Speaker 4: it was probably right at the time, and then.
Speaker 3: Things change and evolved.
Speaker 4: We know what we know at one point, right, then
Speaker 4: we gain more knowledge and experience, and then we change
Speaker 4: our minds, and that is I mean, honestly, I love
Speaker 4: those examples. I can look back and go, I believe this,
Speaker 4: and now I believe something really different because it reflects growths.
Speaker 4: If you're still talk if you still hold onto the
Speaker 4: beliefs that you had X amount of times go and
Speaker 4: you have not shifted that, then that could really indicate
Speaker 4: a lack of growth. So I think it's really good
Speaker 4: that we're always evolving and we're always really open to
Speaker 4: that and going what I know now to be true
Speaker 4: is probably not going to be the same in a year,
Speaker 4: a couple of years, and that's okay. This is a
Speaker 4: journey off life and being a curious researcher.
Speaker 2: Right one hundred percent and being okay with not only
Speaker 2: being okay, but being comfortable with being wrong. And also
Speaker 2: I think one of the challenges is when you believe
Speaker 2: a thing right and then your identity is intertwined with
Speaker 2: that belief, well that makes you pretty much unteachable, right,
Speaker 2: because if you have a set belief and doctor Sam's
Speaker 2: identity is intertwined with that belief or that ideology or
Speaker 2: philosophy or whatever, and then I go, hey, Sam, I've
Speaker 2: just been doing on my own research. I've been talking
Speaker 2: to these people and guess what I mean. This is
Speaker 2: a little bit you know. Then if your entire sense
Speaker 2: of self or a lot of it is intertwined with
Speaker 2: that ideology, then you're not open.
Speaker 4: What happens to people They get really rigid because You're right,
Speaker 4: it shakes their sense of like their identity and how
Speaker 4: they see themselves and they just can't bear to see that.
Speaker 3: And I think I hear that a lot.
Speaker 4: Actually from adult adults whose parents just can't you know,
Speaker 4: be able to reflect upon certain things, and going yeah, actually,
Speaker 4: you know, I see that now that that could have
Speaker 4: really affected you.
Speaker 3: It's like, Nope, that's what I did, and I did
Speaker 3: the best.
Speaker 4: And I don't want to hear anything else because it
Speaker 4: really shakes and how they saw themselves right back then.
Speaker 2: Yeah, It's like I was really interested a few minutes
Speaker 2: ago when you were talking about you know, psychevals when
Speaker 2: someone goes and sits with somebody and they do you know,
Speaker 2: the you know, the mental health professional whoever it is,
Speaker 2: or the health professional does some kind of you know,
Speaker 2: personality profile or cognitive assessment or whatever, some kind of
Speaker 2: psychological evaluation. And then yeah, so the person who's doing
Speaker 2: the test is seeing somebody for you know, what is
Speaker 2: essentially a drop of water in a lifetime that is
Speaker 2: an ocean. Right, It's like, I'm I've never this person
Speaker 2: has been around for millions of minutes, and now I'm
Speaker 2: meeting them for thirty minutes, and then I'm telling them
Speaker 2: everything that's good and bad with them and.
Speaker 1: What they should do. And so what is the.
Speaker 2: Like, what are the pros and cons of psychological evaluations
Speaker 2: in that sense? Like what are your thoughts? I've got
Speaker 2: a few thoughts, but I want to hear yours first.
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, let's start with the pros because I
Speaker 4: really feel like it's more of a systems based pros.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 4: So for a lot of a lot of the time,
Speaker 4: kids can't access funding unless they have an evaluation or
Speaker 4: a diagnosis.
Speaker 3: So that's where I feel like.
Speaker 4: The DSM came in to be able to kind of
Speaker 4: organize these categories, to be able to give out either
Speaker 4: medication or to give out yet funding. I think for
Speaker 4: the person, right, what often feels like validation of like,
Speaker 4: oh this is a name to it now I understand
Speaker 4: it it actually existed before the appointment, is just because
Speaker 4: they didn't really give themselves, I guess, the chance to
Speaker 4: validate their own experiences.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 4: So a lot of the time people are struggling with
Speaker 4: massive amounts of anxiety and all the symptoms, and they
Speaker 4: know that all these symptoms, but then they wait for
Speaker 4: that appointment to be like you have generalized anxiety disorder.
Speaker 4: They're like, oh, what a relief. I do have anxiety.
Speaker 4: But it's like they had anxiety along. It was just
Speaker 4: because they were waiting for the other person to kind
Speaker 4: of validate. So I feel like the diagnostic process these
Speaker 4: days are very limited because it is a bit of
Speaker 4: a check box. I mean, this is not a blood test, right,
Speaker 4: this is a checkbox, and so it is very subjective,
Speaker 4: and so I think often if we can look at
Speaker 4: the symptoms that we're experiencing and then being able to go,
Speaker 4: I'm having this experience of anxiety, I'm having an experience
Speaker 4: of depression, we could actually get a lot quicker to
Speaker 4: the tools that we we need to be able to
Speaker 4: work towards healing. So I don't think it's very trauma
Speaker 4: informed either. So it's often about what is wrong with
Speaker 4: you versus what's happened to you? And I think if
Speaker 4: we really focused on what's happened to you right from
Speaker 4: the beginning of childhood and then our adult years and
Speaker 4: all these experiences and relationships and situations and these unique contexts,
Speaker 4: and we actually understood our story, we would understand why
Speaker 4: we're struggling with what we're struggling with, and then we
Speaker 4: would allow the opportunities that we need to heal and
Speaker 4: grow because we get it right, and that's the only
Speaker 4: person that needs to get it is just us.
Speaker 3: I would say, what's your thoughts?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like thanks, I feel like you know,
Speaker 1: like I designed a measurement tool.
Speaker 2: Called the S forty, which is the You Experienced Scale,
Speaker 2: which is evaluating you know, it's behavioral, emotional, cognitive, social.
Speaker 1: It's like a three column tool where we where we
Speaker 1: measure a range of things.
Speaker 2: So it's like how I see me, you know, So
Speaker 2: column one is I self rate.
Speaker 1: On all of these on this, you know, like I
Speaker 1: am empathetic? You know, one seven like cart scale. Oh
Speaker 1: I'm super empathetic. I'm giving myself seven. So I rate me.
Speaker 2: And then let's say you and I wear close acquaintances. Right,
Speaker 2: So we we rate each other and you do the
Speaker 2: same thing. So I rate myself on all forty criteria,
Speaker 2: and you know there's ten different kind of measures in
Speaker 2: each area behavioral, emotional, cognitive, social. I rate myself, and
Speaker 2: then I rate you. Then I rate how I see
Speaker 2: SAM on all of those variables or factors, and then
Speaker 2: I rate Column three is how I think you see me.
Speaker 2: So that's metaperception, right. So column one is me rating
Speaker 2: me on all these things. Column two is me rating
Speaker 2: you on all those things, and then column three is
Speaker 2: how I think you perceive me, which is met exception.
Speaker 2: Then how good I am at that as meta accuracy?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 1: But anyway, what is funny is I noticed that.
Speaker 2: I could give this you know, this tool, this kind
Speaker 2: of this test or evaluation to somebody on a certain
Speaker 2: dat at a certain time, you know, and we would
Speaker 2: get totally different data to if we gave the same
Speaker 2: test to the same person in different context or at
Speaker 2: a different time of day. And like, this is what
Speaker 2: I think about, you know, it depends like the testing
Speaker 2: conditions and the time of day, and are they hungry,
Speaker 2: are they fatigued? Is it early in the day, is
Speaker 2: it late in the day of that a good day
Speaker 2: or a bad day? Did they sleep well? Did they
Speaker 2: sleep shit? Like I just think in and I'm kind
Speaker 2: of throwing you and me under the bus a little bit,
Speaker 2: but I think some of the science in psychology it's
Speaker 2: not bullshit, but it's.
Speaker 1: A dodgy do you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 4: It's like, yeah, as well, because what you just said
Speaker 4: there makes complete sense. And imagine if we gave people
Speaker 4: the tools to go, Okay, so this is what happened
Speaker 4: and so are you hungry? Then were you this like
Speaker 4: for them to kind of self be able to not
Speaker 4: just monitor themselves, but actually I would say audit and
Speaker 4: going okay, the problems that I think I have, how
Speaker 4: was I feeling them? Did I get enough sleep? Have
Speaker 4: I got my basics down?
Speaker 3: Part?
Speaker 4: Because I feel like it kind of helps them, right
Speaker 4: rather just taking the snapshot and like you said, they
Speaker 4: don't have the context. They could not be feeling great
Speaker 4: and then they're just so fixated now on the results.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And it's like one of my.
Speaker 2: One of my studies I ran, we had face to
Speaker 2: face I had I did two parts, so it was
Speaker 2: one study in two parts at Monash University, and I
Speaker 2: had in kind of installment one which was it doesn't
Speaker 2: matter Thursday night or whatever.
Speaker 1: I had about one hundred.
Speaker 2: People, and then in installment too, so it was just
Speaker 2: done in two parts. It was the same study. And
Speaker 2: if you if you did the if you filled out
Speaker 2: all the forms and the questionnaires properly, and I mean
Speaker 2: give or take, it would take about, ah maybe thirty
Speaker 2: to fifty minutes, you know, to do it pretty well,
Speaker 2: because as you know, you can't you can't ask people
Speaker 2: to do shit for three hours because they resent it
Speaker 2: and they don't. But what was funny is so there
Speaker 2: were some people who were there because they really wanted
Speaker 2: to be there, and so they were very thorough and
Speaker 2: they really gave everything a lot of thought and you
Speaker 2: could kind of get the sense that this is probably
Speaker 2: going to.
Speaker 1: Be good data.
Speaker 2: And there were then there was a few people there
Speaker 2: who were there because they were getting credits for being there, right,
Speaker 2: so God bless the students. But like there were a
Speaker 2: few of them who got through, Like even if you
Speaker 2: were amazing, you couldn't get through any quicker than twenty
Speaker 2: five minutes.
Speaker 1: Like they're getting through in ten minutes. I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: you're not even doing it, you know.
Speaker 2: What I mean, And then you've kind of got to
Speaker 2: figure out, Okay, well do I keep this in?
Speaker 1: Do I keep this out?
Speaker 3: Do I?
Speaker 4: Yah? See, that would be tricky as a research thing,
Speaker 4: because I think of that in general though, with I
Speaker 4: don't know, scales that measure anxiety and depression. You know,
Speaker 4: it's really how that person feels as they're going through
Speaker 4: that scale, it's going to be very different. So if
Speaker 4: you had a conversation with them and understood where that started,
Speaker 4: and you know how they've kind of approached it to
Speaker 4: date and being able to have that, I guess that
Speaker 4: qualitive qualitative measure versus a quantitative Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, very interesting, And that's I mean, then that's the
Speaker 2: whole messiness of psychological research or psychology research, you know.
Speaker 2: I wanted to ask you. You probably mentioned the word healing,
Speaker 2: heal or healing six or seven times.
Speaker 1: I love it. I love it.
Speaker 2: I want to know what is the difference between or
Speaker 2: the overlap of healing and recovery?
Speaker 1: Is that analogous? Is that different? Do they coexist?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I feel like they're recovery.
Speaker 4: I don't know, I feel like they're both for me,
Speaker 4: like the journey right, because we're never recovered, we're never healed.
Speaker 4: So I think it's I mean, someone can go I'm
Speaker 4: on a recovery journey, and someone can go on.
Speaker 3: A healing journey.
Speaker 4: I did actually a post about this the other day
Speaker 4: because I hear often people talk about I need to
Speaker 4: take a break from healing, like it's getting too much,
Speaker 4: And you know, my argument is that we should need
Speaker 4: a break from the inner work.
Speaker 3: Because if that means we're doing it in the wrong way,
Speaker 3: if we feel like we need a break from it, if.
Speaker 4: We only see inner work as putting ourselves down or
Speaker 4: you know, yoga and climbing activities and constantly analyzing ourselves,
Speaker 4: if that's only the inner work, then yeah, of course
Speaker 4: you're gonna need a break from it. But I feel
Speaker 4: like the inner.
Speaker 3: Work is giving yourselves what you need.
Speaker 4: That could be dancing, that could be more rest, that
Speaker 4: could be taking a break from more of the intellectual
Speaker 4: stuff and just having more experiences of living life. So
Speaker 4: I feel like it could all be healing if we
Speaker 4: again take that approach. If I'm going to follow what
Speaker 4: I need here and constantly you know, recess and reevaluate
Speaker 4: to keep myself accountable, but at the same time, yeah,
Speaker 4: giving ourselves a break could still be healing.
Speaker 3: Having fun is still healing.
Speaker 2: So we talk a lot in exercise science, SAM and
Speaker 2: nutrition and lots of other health related kind of spaces
Speaker 2: about trying to find, you know, what is the best
Speaker 2: diet for you, what is the best exercise protocol for you?
Speaker 2: And I know you spend lots of time in the gym.
Speaker 1: Is you know what is optimal for you?
Speaker 2: Because you know, I could get another guy who's my
Speaker 2: age and my height, my weight, AND's got the same
Speaker 2: goals as me, and we both do the same workout
Speaker 2: and I'm good and he can't move.
Speaker 1: For four days, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Or he eats on average two thousand calories a day.
Speaker 2: I eat on average two thousand calories a day and
Speaker 2: I gain weight that I don't want to gain, and
Speaker 2: he is not getting enough. He needs twenty two, I
Speaker 2: need eighteen or whatever. It could be thirty two or
Speaker 2: twenty eight, doesn't matter. But it's like, you know, physiologically,
Speaker 2: the same thing will create a different response in different people,
Speaker 2: because of course, nobody other than some identical twins of course,
Speaker 2: have got.
Speaker 1: The same physiology.
Speaker 2: So it's not trying to figure out what's the best
Speaker 2: protocol the end, but rather what's the best protocol for Cray,
Speaker 2: what's the best protocol for Sam?
Speaker 1: Like how you know.
Speaker 2: When we look at sets and reps and overload and
Speaker 2: cardio and fucking target heart range and hours of sleep
Speaker 2: and micros and macros and calories in and out and
Speaker 2: situation and environment and job, and you know, it's like
Speaker 2: my job is I reckon? For me, if not the
Speaker 2: best job, I don't know what it is, but for me,
Speaker 2: it's one of the best. It's probably the best job.
Speaker 2: Like I'm doing, I'm talking to you. You're smart, You're
Speaker 2: great to talk to.
Speaker 1: This is my job. This I'm getting paid for this,
Speaker 1: This show is sponsored. This is ridiculous, Right.
Speaker 2: I go and I talk to you know, I was
Speaker 2: in Queensland on Monday and Tuesday talking to awesome people
Speaker 2: about all the shit that I'm fascinated with. I go
Speaker 2: up there, I talk about the shit I'm obsessed with.
Speaker 2: They give me money and I fly back.
Speaker 1: Right. So for me, it's almost like the dream job.
Speaker 1: And I'm never not grateful. I'm always grateful.
Speaker 2: But for somebody else that job would be a fucking nightmare.
Speaker 3: Yeah, good you.
Speaker 4: Know, and that's the importance, right, like you said, of
Speaker 4: having those individual protocols, because you could have even the
Speaker 4: best exercise plan for someone and then they just don't
Speaker 4: do it because it's not working in their schedule. So
Speaker 4: it's actually not the best plan for them, you know,
Speaker 4: So then you're having to tweak it and you're trying
Speaker 4: to find their barriers, I would assume.
Speaker 3: So yeah, very and very good points. Well.
Speaker 2: And then and then if we try to extrapolate that
Speaker 2: to you know, helping people with you know, trauma and
Speaker 2: grief and a myriad of mental health issues that you know,
Speaker 2: you understand way better than me. And what's going to
Speaker 2: work for kid one might not work at all for
Speaker 2: Kid two. It could be a catastrophe for kid three
Speaker 2: or grown up four. And so to what extent when
Speaker 2: you are prescribing treatment, therapy, healing or going on that journey,
Speaker 2: to what extent is it flexible and intuitive? Oh?
Speaker 3: It has to be.
Speaker 4: Like that's actually the number one thing that I really
Speaker 4: hone in on even with when I'm talking and teaching
Speaker 4: those professionals about therapeutic play.
Speaker 3: We have to be adaptable.
Speaker 4: And what we need to know is we need to
Speaker 4: know the next step right, but then being able to
Speaker 4: take feedback from the environment, from the child, and then
Speaker 4: being able to adapt and to rejig our plan. I
Speaker 4: think too often I see these really great behavior plans
Speaker 4: and they're super rigid, and they don't even survive first
Speaker 4: contact with the child.
Speaker 3: And then you know, professionals get really.
Speaker 4: Down to themselves and they're like, no, but I had
Speaker 4: all the best stuff in there, and it should work.
Speaker 4: And so we then become like I said, rigid rather
Speaker 4: than going actually, we just need to know the next step,
Speaker 4: and then also being really open to gathering more information
Speaker 4: about the child. And I think adults should treat healing
Speaker 4: like that too. We need to know the next thing
Speaker 4: and just start looking for that feedback.
Speaker 3: Is this working for me? What would working look like?
Speaker 4: How can I readus recess, reevaluate? It's always a work
Speaker 4: in progress. I think we need to, yeah, be as
Speaker 4: adaptable and flexible as we can while still, you know,
Speaker 4: stay on track with our goals or our direction.
Speaker 1: To what extent.
Speaker 2: I absolutely have no idea about the answer to this question.
Speaker 2: Often I asked something I think I have an idea
Speaker 2: of the answer. I'm often wrong, of course, but I
Speaker 2: have no idea what the answer to this is. You know,
Speaker 2: so in some settings and contexts with some problems, kids
Speaker 2: will be medicated, even adults, right, But to what extent
Speaker 2: could play therapy replace medication? Is there, ever, are.
Speaker 1: There cases where or.
Speaker 2: Conditions I guess is maybe another word where this kid
Speaker 2: is going to you know, experience improvements physiological, psychological, emotional
Speaker 2: improvements greater are like by climbing up a fucking tree,
Speaker 2: or rolling around on the floor with a phone ball,
Speaker 2: or I don't know, jumping on a dinosaur. Is that
Speaker 2: I feel like that's a much better route than popping
Speaker 2: pills if it's.
Speaker 4: Effective, definitely, But you know what I think is always
Speaker 4: going to be the barer here. We will see what
Speaker 4: we want to see. If we believe that medication is
Speaker 4: the thing that's going to help, you know, a child,
Speaker 4: we're going to be very I guess fixated on that.
Speaker 4: And it's like, nope, I've tried on the things. It's
Speaker 4: not working, and we've reached the end here, and a
Speaker 4: lot of parents, you know, they're like they really do
Speaker 4: feel stretched, they really do feel like they have tried
Speaker 4: all the things and this is the only thing that
Speaker 4: can shift it. But then I feel like, and this
Speaker 4: is a bit of a playful mindset to think of,
Speaker 4: imagine if medication wasn't available, what would we do?
Speaker 3: How would we manage it? And then we go into
Speaker 3: that and I think as adults we can do that
Speaker 3: as well.
Speaker 4: We could find adults being in situations where they go,
Speaker 4: I'm anxious, I just want that medication. Hang on, what
Speaker 4: if I just pretended like that wasn't available?
Speaker 3: What would I do instead? And then you know, making
Speaker 3: a plan that way.
Speaker 4: So I don't think it's clear cut because this is
Speaker 4: a very subjective experience. You could talk to someone. It's
Speaker 4: not a blot test. There's not you know, definite things
Speaker 4: about this. It's really the environment that the child's in
Speaker 4: as well, if they believe they can do with or
Speaker 4: without it. But I think it does get to a
Speaker 4: point that whether you're using medication or not, all those
Speaker 4: other things can help. And so we really do need
Speaker 4: to realize it's not we do the natural stuff or
Speaker 4: we do the medication. It's whatever path you choose, natural
Speaker 4: or medication, you still need to do the strategy or
Speaker 4: you still need to do those things because it's not
Speaker 4: going to create this perfect child or this perfect situation anyway.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I guess if you're medicating symptoms, which I
Speaker 2: completely understand, right, there's no judgment in that. But you know,
Speaker 2: somebody's got a certain symptom, we give them medication, the
Speaker 2: symptom goes away or the symptom improves, but we're still
Speaker 2: not fixing the underlying thing that's causing the whatever, right,
Speaker 2: And so to what extent do we And again I
Speaker 2: don't know enough about this, So I'm just a dumbass
Speaker 2: asking questions, So please don't hate me. Parents, don't go
Speaker 2: what do you fucking I don't know anything, right, So
Speaker 2: I'm asking honestly, like I feel like it would be
Speaker 2: while I understand the chemical approach, I myself have used
Speaker 2: the chemical approach for many things in my life, not
Speaker 2: list drugs, but of course, of course, like thank God
Speaker 2: for painkillers when my back has been fucked thirty times. Right,
Speaker 2: But to what extent can we like treat the underlying
Speaker 2: stuff that is the producer of the symptoms. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: we play therapy or you know whatever.
Speaker 4: In general, Yeah, I think to a huge extent. And
Speaker 4: I think that's why I really try and help parents
Speaker 4: to not get to fixated on do I communication or
Speaker 4: do I not? You know, it's like we can experiment
Speaker 4: with either option. That is okay, absolutely no judgment, like
Speaker 4: you said, but when you've but aside.
Speaker 3: From that, that's one piece of the puzzle. So what
Speaker 3: about all these other pieces?
Speaker 4: And I think that is about really targeting the self
Speaker 4: talk for kids, really talking about the role of the environment,
Speaker 4: because that does matter, right, Our environment can either work
Speaker 4: for or against us. Talk about the stories that we
Speaker 4: hold about ourselves, our cool beliefs, why do we be,
Speaker 4: what we do, what is our sception of these things,
Speaker 4: and then looking at those practices on a daily basis
Speaker 4: that we show up for ourselves or that we care
Speaker 4: for ourselves so that we create room in our life
Speaker 4: for joy and full play and for all those things. So, yeah,
Speaker 4: I don't think it's either either. It's more like, okay,
Speaker 4: that's a medical thing, and if you haven't tried it,
Speaker 4: you want to try it, go ahead, But it doesn't
Speaker 4: replace the need for all those other things. So let's
Speaker 4: start like, let's just continue ticking away at that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's interesting when you think that you could
Speaker 2: take I was going to mention the name of drug.
Speaker 2: I won't, but you could take drug a and it
Speaker 2: might lower your heart rate, might lower your blood pressure.
Speaker 2: It might tone down your bloody sympathetic nervous system or
Speaker 2: switch on your pair. You know, you might start to
Speaker 2: it might change your physiology in that sense and you
Speaker 2: move out of a state of a heightened state to
Speaker 2: a more relaxed state.
Speaker 1: Data.
Speaker 2: Or you could go for a run, and not that
Speaker 2: that would work for everybody, but some people you go
Speaker 2: for a run, you get home. I know when I run,
Speaker 2: I get home and I feel like calm. I just
Speaker 2: I see it usually especially if I run hard. Or
Speaker 2: for some people that might be whatever meditation, or it
Speaker 2: might be being in nature.
Speaker 1: But they it's funny the thing that that.
Speaker 2: A drug does, which is change of physiology, change biochemistry.
Speaker 2: So does swimming in the ocean yep, and running it does.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And you know a good point about that, because
Speaker 4: I think the issue here is when someone goes no,
Speaker 4: I definitely need that medication, and you might go hang on,
Speaker 4: you could go for a run.
Speaker 3: What they hear is I'm not doing something. I've caused this.
Speaker 3: This is my fault.
Speaker 4: If only I went for the run, I wouldn't feel
Speaker 4: like that. And so then they run and they come
Speaker 4: back and they're like, I don't feel better. See it
Speaker 4: didn't work, you know, versus I think the way that
Speaker 4: you explain it is really good, which is, yes, medication
Speaker 4: can change our brain physology, but so can running. So
Speaker 4: what running does? It actually rewires our brain. So does
Speaker 4: meditation that rewires our brain. So there's a whole bunch
Speaker 4: of things that really our brain. It's not just medication,
Speaker 4: And I think the way that we can approach it
Speaker 4: can vastly change, right, because it's just not a lack
Speaker 4: of things that we're not it's just giving our brain
Speaker 4: another experience, and medication is one, but then we've got
Speaker 4: all these other things too.
Speaker 2: I my listeners know this, pologies listeners. But about eight
Speaker 2: months ago, Sam I was my phone, gave me an
Speaker 2: alert and it said it basically went, you're super lazy.
Speaker 1: To get off your ass, right.
Speaker 2: It said you are walking on average four and a
Speaker 2: half thousand or four thousand, two hundred some disgraceful amount
Speaker 2: of steps per day. Right, this mister excise science DoD right,
Speaker 2: And I went, how am I walking so few steps?
Speaker 2: And this was averaged over the last three months or something,
Speaker 2: So it wasn't just a day or two. It was
Speaker 2: all the days on average, and I went, right, I
Speaker 2: can't do that. That's unacceptable, And so I just made
Speaker 2: a resolution just to me, and I went, well, from tomorrow,
Speaker 2: I'm going to walk ten thousand steps a day.
Speaker 1: That's it. Every day. I'll just figure it out, right,
Speaker 1: So I'll make phone.
Speaker 2: Calls when I walk, I'll listen to a podcast, I'll
Speaker 2: listen to some research, or I might just walk and
Speaker 2: do nothing. I might just because I live eight hundred
Speaker 2: metres from the beach, I might just walk to the
Speaker 2: beach and fucking hang out with nature, you know. But
Speaker 2: the funny thing is, since I did that, and I
Speaker 2: haven't stopped that, since I've done that every day since,
Speaker 2: and I probably averaged closer to fifteen thousand steps a day.
Speaker 2: But what I and I only did it for the
Speaker 2: physiological you know, the health, heart, health, moving my body, hips, flexibility,
Speaker 2: not sitting at a fucking chair, posture, all that stuff,
Speaker 2: and all of those things have really worked. But the
Speaker 2: thing that I didn't do it for and didn't expect
Speaker 2: was my energy all day is better. And I mean
Speaker 2: my physical energy but also my emotional energy, not all
Speaker 2: day every day, but on average, it's better every day,
Speaker 2: my mental acuity better, my cognitive performance better, my ability. Like,
Speaker 2: I've been up since five this morning, it's caught to
Speaker 2: past seven, and I haven't eaten since eight o'clock this morning,
Speaker 2: right and right now, so it's almost twelve hours since
Speaker 2: I've eaten. I only eat two meals a day. I've
Speaker 2: been up and pretty busy and pretty productive for fourteen hours.
Speaker 2: I feel fucking great and I'm sixty one. And that's
Speaker 2: not an advertisement for me. That's just like, oh, now,
Speaker 2: a year ago, I was fucked in the afternoon. You
Speaker 2: know I was, and I'm not saying so therefore, if
Speaker 2: you do this everyone, that will be the outcome.
Speaker 3: So the core difference you feel is the steps.
Speaker 2: One hundred percent. And so I'm literally walking probably two
Speaker 2: to three times every day more than I did.
Speaker 1: It's like a thing came up.
Speaker 3: So how many steps should you stay? On average? Would
Speaker 3: you do?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: On average around thirteen to thirteen and a half on
Speaker 2: average someday sixteen, some days eleven, right, but mostly getting
Speaker 2: up towards fifteen.
Speaker 1: I also lift weight every day and all of that.
Speaker 2: But here's my point, Like, there's been this psychological and
Speaker 2: so I feel calmer, I feel clearer, but also this
Speaker 2: cognitive shift, which is I can focus for longer, I
Speaker 2: feel more present.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: The other day, like I said to you, I was
Speaker 2: in Queensland working and I'm in front of groups for hours, hours,
Speaker 2: and I experienced no fatigue.
Speaker 3: Wow, that's incredible.
Speaker 4: Do you think that the eating twice a day helps
Speaker 4: with that too? Gives do you want to see galories
Speaker 4: when you do that?
Speaker 2: Or is it just totally instinctively so I think one
Speaker 2: of them. We're digressing here, but fuck, it's interesting anyway.
Speaker 2: I truly believe that one of the one of the
Speaker 2: consequences of life in the new millennia is that and
Speaker 2: before is that we've become disconnected from our body. We
Speaker 2: don't We're not We're not plugged into the wisdom that
Speaker 2: is biofeedback.
Speaker 1: We're not plugged.
Speaker 2: You know when you think, I mean in a million ways,
Speaker 2: but you think just about food. I mean, and this
Speaker 2: is no, I'm not throwing any heat on anyone because
Speaker 2: I did this right. I had a toxic or not toxic.
Speaker 2: I had an unhealthy relationship with food for a long time.
Speaker 2: I would have had very close to an eating disorder.
Speaker 2: Definitely disordered eating. But I would eat just because it's
Speaker 2: time to eat. Oh wow, it's time to eat, and
Speaker 2: I wouldn't even be hungry, like my body is giving
Speaker 2: me no signals that I need food, right. And there
Speaker 2: have been times in my life where I was morbidly
Speaker 2: obese when I was younger, and then I was I
Speaker 2: don't know if you know that.
Speaker 1: Did you know I was a fat kid?
Speaker 3: Saying that in one of the elia.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so I was morbidly obese when I was
Speaker 2: a kid, and then when I got older, I also
Speaker 2: lost my way and going a whole lot of weight
Speaker 2: and blah blah blah. But anyway, for me, it's I
Speaker 2: think one of the mardest things we can do is
Speaker 2: try to reconnect with our body. Because our body is
Speaker 2: fucking brilliant. Our body is wisdom, our body is information,
Speaker 2: our body is guidance.
Speaker 1: But what we do is.
Speaker 2: We go, oh, old mate said I should eat this, Well,
Speaker 2: how about instead of old mate who doesn't know your body,
Speaker 2: who doesn't understand your physiology, who did a course well done,
Speaker 2: did a course right.
Speaker 1: It's even when.
Speaker 2: People say to me, what's the best way for me
Speaker 2: to get strong or increase muscular endurance or whatever it is.
Speaker 1: I go, look, I don't know you.
Speaker 2: I don't know how your bi can talk to you
Speaker 2: about the fundamentals of exercise science, adaptation, progressive overload, you know, physiology,
Speaker 2: biomechanicsper I can do that. But how your body will
Speaker 2: individually respond to a particular stimulus or stimuli, I don't know.
Speaker 2: So let's start with something and then you pay attention
Speaker 2: to what's working and what's not working, and we'll do
Speaker 2: an N equals one project, which is why my show
Speaker 2: is called the You Project, because I think our lives
Speaker 2: in a way are ongoing experiments with that.
Speaker 3: That is the research for me to so yeah, to
Speaker 3: keep experimenting with what works and what doesn't. And so
Speaker 3: you probably would have done that with your food.
Speaker 4: Then it's like you start somewhere and then you took
Speaker 4: feedback I'm assuming, and then you tweak it and then
Speaker 4: you find something that works.
Speaker 2: In COVID, I gained about four kilos, which for me
Speaker 2: is quite a bit because I always have a generally
Speaker 2: hover within one or two k's right, And you know,
Speaker 2: it's not like I didn't lose my shit over It
Speaker 2: wasn't a big trauma or anything, But I went, oh,
Speaker 2: and because I was moving less, the gyms were closed.
Speaker 1: It was just, you know, a first world problem.
Speaker 2: But nonetheless it was tricky, right, And so one day
Speaker 2: I thought, all right, I'm gonna I think I went
Speaker 2: from like eighty five to eighty nine kilos and I went, well,
Speaker 2: and I could feel it, and you know, it's not
Speaker 2: life threatening, and I wasn't, you know, having sleepless nights.
Speaker 1: But I went, what am I going to do? What
Speaker 1: practically can I do?
Speaker 2: Because I was probably well obviously definitely eating a few things.
Speaker 1: I didn't need, right, It's more in the want than need.
Speaker 2: Category, right, So I went, well, you know what, I'm
Speaker 2: just going to not eat lunch for two weeks. So
Speaker 2: I'll eat breakfast, I'll eat dinner, and if I happen
Speaker 2: to be genuinely hungry around one or two or three,
Speaker 2: I might have a little snack.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Day one day, one sam of the fourteen, I got
Speaker 2: to about two or three o'clock and I realized, well,
Speaker 2: one I wasn't hungry because once I kind of commit,
Speaker 2: I just I don't once.
Speaker 1: I go lunch.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what lunch is not an option? So I don't
Speaker 2: think about what I'm going.
Speaker 1: To eat for lots.
Speaker 4: You no coffees as well, like are you going completely
Speaker 4: after Yeah?
Speaker 1: Well I would.
Speaker 2: I would have tea through the day with water and
Speaker 2: you know, a dash of milk. But I wasn't eating
Speaker 2: a meal, but the unexpected consequence, so I did. I
Speaker 2: lost the weight, which probably took a month, not two weeks,
Speaker 2: but was my mental clarity and my mental energy didn't
Speaker 2: wane through the afternoon. Now until that, every afternoon I
Speaker 2: was hitting this kind of energy.
Speaker 1: Wall where I'm like ah, and I used.
Speaker 2: To go, well, of course you are, because you're fifty
Speaker 2: eight year old as fuck, you're tired. You know, this
Speaker 2: is what happens. And yeah, that was the That was
Speaker 2: the last time I ate lunch.
Speaker 3: And that was so how do you know you're getting
Speaker 3: enough during the day?
Speaker 4: Then, I mean like, sorry, how do you know you're
Speaker 4: not getting enough with your two meals?
Speaker 3: Are they like monster meals?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 1: Not at all, not at all.
Speaker 2: But what I do is it's like I'll eat dinner
Speaker 2: and then if I think, oh, I'm still hungry, I'll
Speaker 2: wait half an hour, maybe maybe an hour, and then
Speaker 2: if in an hour I'm still hungry, I'll go have
Speaker 2: something else. But there's a you know, trying to distinguish
Speaker 2: between a craving and hunger like this is, oh, this
Speaker 2: is a signal from my body that it needs more energy.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: That is that is the challenge, and it's it's you know,
Speaker 2: there's my body's But I hate to say this. I'm
Speaker 2: going to say it, and this is am I going
Speaker 2: to say it? Yeah, I need to give up. My
Speaker 2: body's been telling me lately. This is like my last
Speaker 2: fucking bastion, right, I need to give up artificial sweetener.
Speaker 2: Some research just came out on artificial sweetener, which is
Speaker 2: not great, right, And I'm like, ah, did you know
Speaker 2: that like this that's.
Speaker 3: The one thing you know I actually have?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So I drink I mean I don't drink
Speaker 2: mountains of but I would have you know, I have
Speaker 2: some diet coke and I have some nutra sweet in
Speaker 2: my coffee and sugar stuff.
Speaker 3: Right because that's the stuff that I like, the no
Speaker 3: sugar drinks.
Speaker 1: That sound yeah yeah yeah yeah.
Speaker 2: So like my protein powder has artificial sweetener in it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm like, ah fuck, Anyway, some research came out from
Speaker 2: Monash University.
Speaker 1: I could fuck this up a little bit, I don't
Speaker 1: think I will.
Speaker 2: That said, one glass of soda or whatever, you know,
Speaker 2: fizzy whatever with artificial sweet and one glass per day
Speaker 2: increases your chance of type two diabetes by thirty eight percent. Wow,
Speaker 2: versus the same amount of drink with sugar twenty three percent.
Speaker 3: To it as a worse than sugar, is what you're saying.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, well it's this is what that. And I
Speaker 2: went and it was on the news, and you know
Speaker 2: how stuff's on the news.
Speaker 1: I'm like, fuck the.
Speaker 2: News, they've got this wrong. So I went and I went,
Speaker 2: I need to go look up this research. And I
Speaker 2: looked it up and it's exactly that.
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh fuck.
Speaker 2: And also my dad's are type two diabetics, so the
Speaker 2: chances of me history Yeah, I'm like, yeah, fuck, you know,
Speaker 2: so you just all right, So I just need to
Speaker 2: figure it out. So, you know, today this morning, I
Speaker 2: have my coffee no sweetener. I had another one this afternoon,
Speaker 2: no sweetner. It tastes a little bit cackr. But I'll
Speaker 2: get used to it, but I think adat yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 2: So all right, so I just want to ask you.
Speaker 2: We'll get back on track and we'll wind up.
Speaker 1: What how much of.
Speaker 2: Dealing with with kids and trauma is about dealing with
Speaker 2: the parents first. Or is it or is it like
Speaker 2: in conjunction or is does it totally separate am.
Speaker 4: I would say that that would be the main thing,
Speaker 4: to be honest, because if you think about therapy, it's
Speaker 4: meant to be a short term intervention, right, They're not
Speaker 4: meant to be in therapy twenty four seven. So you know,
Speaker 4: the parent has the environment, like they hold the influence
Speaker 4: over the environment.
Speaker 3: The child's in that environment. So being able to work
Speaker 3: with the parent.
Speaker 4: Not only helps during the therapy process, it's a child
Speaker 4: is in therapy, but after because we know that there
Speaker 4: will be trauma reactions, right, trauma responsors post therapy, and
Speaker 4: so a parent that actually understands it will be able
Speaker 4: to accommodate for that versus a parent that hasn't been
Speaker 4: part of that process anyway. So I think it is
Speaker 4: really important, if anything, probably more important that the parents
Speaker 4: are actually attending therapy and understanding and learning about trauma
Speaker 4: and learning about you know, talking about their child's behavior
Speaker 4: and how that's linked to trauma and what they could
Speaker 4: do to make adaptations or yeah, you know, for their
Speaker 4: child to promote that healing and that growth outside the
Speaker 4: therapy rooms.
Speaker 3: I think that's really important.
Speaker 2: Is it hard or it's probably not the right word,
Speaker 2: But when you talk to other health professionals, people that
Speaker 2: because you teach people about play therapy, right did I?
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you you train them up to do play therapy.
Speaker 4: With I will teach I guess the play therapy tools
Speaker 4: for people who aren't.
Speaker 3: Therapists or profess or therapists.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm really targeting those ones who don't get access
Speaker 4: to quality play therapy education because they're not a therapist.
Speaker 4: So I'm trying to make it a bit more accessible
Speaker 4: for them.
Speaker 2: And so the people who are in the same kind
Speaker 2: of fields therapy and mental health and all of that,
Speaker 2: but the it not in your particular niche how do
Speaker 2: they respond to this treatment protocol versus more traditional routes,
Speaker 2: like you do you get much pushback? Do you get
Speaker 2: lots of support? Do you get curiosity?
Speaker 4: Like?
Speaker 1: What is the vibe from the psychology tribe?
Speaker 3: So interesting you say that because I do have a
Speaker 3: lot of psychologists that.
Speaker 4: Come through my training, and you know, a lot of
Speaker 4: them say, but I know this stuff and I'm you know, struggling, right,
Speaker 4: to make sense of that because we are the therapist,
Speaker 4: you know, so for them that traditional training is staying
Speaker 4: true to it. Then I have a bunch of others
Speaker 4: that are like, I'm learning more about this stuff than
Speaker 4: I did in university because I'm actually challenging own assumptions
Speaker 4: and own bias, and I'm actually creating tools and delivering
Speaker 4: tools that help the parents post therapy.
Speaker 3: So I think you've got both.
Speaker 4: And I've noticed the ones that are in therapy themselves
Speaker 4: and doing their own and work actually really welcome this.
Speaker 4: I think it's the one that go, you know, no,
Speaker 4: like I'm the expert, here's her parents still need to
Speaker 4: come to me, right, and I'll.
Speaker 3: Do the therapy because then I want to do it properly.
Speaker 4: The ones that are probably more stuck on the system.
Speaker 3: But I think that that's very rare.
Speaker 4: I think most of the time psychologists are welcoming it
Speaker 4: more because they can see they can see that the
Speaker 4: system has its limitations. Research doesn't match up with the
Speaker 4: amount of funding that we get for mental health treatment,
Speaker 4: so I think they are looking at more creative ways
Speaker 4: to be able to deliver these tools to parents. So
Speaker 4: god often therapists will still do my course, but they'll
Speaker 4: use it ask like a homework thing for their parents,
Speaker 4: you know, to.
Speaker 3: Be able to give them the tools to extend this
Speaker 3: work at home.
Speaker 4: So I think, yeah, being creative is probably the main thing,
Speaker 4: and being able to realize that the system does as
Speaker 4: limitations and so does the mental health model. But there
Speaker 4: are ways that we can add to that and be
Speaker 4: creative around it.
Speaker 2: And is there a particular age where you can kind
Speaker 2: of open the conversational door with a child around how
Speaker 2: they feel and like you can actually ask them deress
Speaker 2: direct specific questions or do you just kind of wait
Speaker 2: and see what evolves.
Speaker 3: I think you can, you can ask them.
Speaker 4: I mean there's definitely approaches that you know do that,
Speaker 4: and I mean with kids, you know, you could still
Speaker 4: talk to them, but knowing that it's probably play that
Speaker 4: they are most going to process things and be able
Speaker 4: to actually you know, figure out how they feel and
Speaker 4: would get insight into their own world versus what they
Speaker 4: say to us, because remember, kids might be searching forward.
Speaker 3: The right answer, the answer that they think we want
Speaker 3: to hear.
Speaker 4: How are you yeah, I'm good, you know, versus actually
Speaker 4: playing out these things. And yeah, it's definitely just more
Speaker 4: appropriate developmentally, but I don't think it stops us from
Speaker 4: having or to abstaining from talking.
Speaker 3: We can definitely ask questions and appropriate.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Always fascinating, Always fascinating. I love the way your brain works.
Speaker 2: I love the work that you do. I love the
Speaker 2: energy that you bring and the info that you bring.
Speaker 2: Tell people how they can connect with you, Sam and
Speaker 2: follow you and maybe even do some.
Speaker 1: Work with you.
Speaker 4: Yes, so you could follow me on Instagram which is
Speaker 4: doctor Sam Casey, or on my website which is www
Speaker 4: dot doctor samcc dot com.
Speaker 1: Perfect.
Speaker 2: Well, we'll say goodbye affair, but thanks, good to see
Speaker 2: you again.
Speaker 3: Thanks to you too, Craig. It was a great conversation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I appreciate it.