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Speaker 1: I'll get a team.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to another installment of the Bloody You Project, or

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Speaker 2: just the You Project, Bloody You Project, the You Project.

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Speaker 1: Your choice.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Sam Casey has been many times on the show,

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Speaker 2: but not being here for a little while because we

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Speaker 2: were renegotiating her contract.

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Speaker 1: Are you happy with the way it's turned out?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's all panning out very well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what is four times zero? I think we're on

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Speaker 2: the same but you did you know, your manager did

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Speaker 2: go hard, so you know here, we.

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Speaker 3: Are great to be here.

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Speaker 2: I'm being silly, of course. How are you, doctor Sam?

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Speaker 2: Have you had a good few months? How is life

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Speaker 2: on the other side of Australia? Of course you're in

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Speaker 2: I know you're in in wa but are you You're

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Speaker 2: in Perth, Perth or you near Perth?

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Speaker 3: No, I'm actually Kartha, so I'm in the desert.

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Speaker 1: But it is Oh, you're way up, that's right, that's right.

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Speaker 4: I'm extremely cold here, like it's it's ridiculously cold. I'm

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Speaker 4: not used to it, so it's like my body'scclarimatized to

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Speaker 4: desert life. And then we get to winter and we

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Speaker 4: have like a month or two of absolutely freezing weather.

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Speaker 3: So I've got I mean, now I'm good. I've got

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Speaker 3: a heater on.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, generally I've got my winter jackets and I'm

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Speaker 4: lay it up.

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Speaker 2: Let's put this in perspective. When you say it's freezing,

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Speaker 2: what's the temperature in the morning.

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Speaker 3: It's probably like in their twenties, but for me it's freezing. Ah.

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Speaker 3: I know you probably don't get my pain.

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Speaker 2: I definitely don't get your pain. We would in today's

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Speaker 2: top temperature in Melbourne was thirteen.

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Speaker 3: Wow, that was the top the top.

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Speaker 2: That was the warmest part of the day, and you're

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Speaker 2: complaining about twenty in the My goodness. But it is funny.

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Speaker 2: I guess you really get acclimatized to certain temperatures. Like

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Speaker 2: what's your optimal We'll get on something more interesting in

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Speaker 2: the moment. In a moment, what's your ideal if you

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Speaker 2: could go, it's got to be this temperature all the time,

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Speaker 2: if you had to be a temperature well.

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Speaker 4: Probably early thirties, I reckon, really, yeah, that'd be great.

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Speaker 2: That would kill me or drumming nuts. I definitely couldn't

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Speaker 2: do that. All right, now, you haven't been here for

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Speaker 2: a little while, so could you. I know, we've done

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Speaker 2: this once or twice, but you know, frown newbies. For

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Speaker 2: the people who have jumped on the new project trained

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Speaker 2: to in the last couple of two, three, four months,

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Speaker 2: could you just give them a snapshot of who you

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Speaker 2: are and what you do.

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Speaker 3: Yep, of course.

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Speaker 4: So I am a well originally trained as atal therapist.

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Speaker 4: I then became a parent myself, and I started to

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Speaker 4: get in a retrained and got into maternal mental health,

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Speaker 4: and then I decided to teach, because you're obviously doing

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Speaker 4: play therapy as kids. I decided to focus all my

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Speaker 4: energy on teaching professionals and parents how to prescribe therapeutic

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Speaker 4: play because I think it needs to get out of the.

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Speaker 3: Therapy room and into real life.

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Speaker 4: I really believe in taking that therapeutic insight, yeah, out

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Speaker 4: of that clinical environment and just into everyday life because

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Speaker 4: we all need it. We're all dealing with mental health

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Speaker 4: on a daily basis. So that's kind of my bread

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Speaker 4: and butter now and I've got in the area of

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Speaker 4: training and play therapy.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, we're talking before we went live about how

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Speaker 2: both of us end up counseling or coaching other people

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Speaker 2: who work in a similar space, like people who are

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Speaker 2: psychologists or therapists or even psychiatrists, and which kind of

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Speaker 2: initially it seems like why on earth would they come?

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Speaker 2: But then the fact is everyone's human, everyone's normal. Just

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Speaker 2: because you have a qualification, a degree, a PhD, a title,

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Speaker 2: doesn't mean that you don't have your own challenges and issues,

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Speaker 2: that you don't have to talk through stuff, And that

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Speaker 2: knowing how something works, like the brain or the mind

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Speaker 2: or human behavior doesn't mean that you're not going to

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Speaker 2: have your own challenges exactly.

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Speaker 4: And I think, and I see this so often as well,

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Speaker 4: you know, because we we actually equate knowing you know

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Speaker 4: something to being able to do better.

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Speaker 3: And this is where the shame comes.

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Speaker 4: I get a lot of you know, trained like therapists

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Speaker 4: or people in the health industry, and they come to

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Speaker 4: me and they're like, I should know better, I know

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Speaker 4: this stuff, And so knowing better doesn't replace the fact

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Speaker 4: that they didn't experience better. And so their experiences, right

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Speaker 4: are what they're coming from. Like we're human, we all

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Speaker 4: have different experiences, and this is what we need to

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Speaker 4: I guess, you know, fill those gaps in. And no

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Speaker 4: matter how much knowledge we get, it's not going to

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Speaker 4: fill in the gaps.

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Speaker 3: We just need different experiences, we need healing experiences.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, I think it's definitely, if anything, they have

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Speaker 4: additional challenges because they know so much in such an

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Speaker 4: intense amount of time and they haven't really had a

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Speaker 4: chance to integrate that in their lives.

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Speaker 3: And then, yeah, they do put that pressure on trying

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Speaker 3: to read more, learn more. What if I missed?

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Speaker 4: Why can't I do this? And you get that from

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Speaker 4: the general public too. Oh yeah, but you know this

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Speaker 4: stuff like you should be all across it, And yeah,

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Speaker 4: they've really kind of dismissed the fact that they actually

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Speaker 4: haven't experienced this stuff.

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Speaker 3: They haven't experienced, you know, a lot.

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Speaker 4: Of the the validation or the space to be able

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Speaker 4: to be them and trust themselves and listen to their

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Speaker 4: you know, their own guidance, I guess as well.

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Speaker 2: And it's it's interesting how you can have all the

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Speaker 2: intellectual understanding, the knowledge, the research, the awareness, and you

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Speaker 2: can even know what's going on, but when you get

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Speaker 2: trapped in that emotional loop you know or you're you're

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Speaker 2: now feel like it doesn't sometimes it doesn't matter what

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Speaker 2: you know when you feel fucking terrible, Like yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I get it, I get the science. I get the theory,

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Speaker 2: but right now you do not understand the emotional state

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Speaker 2: that I'm in. And despite the fact that I know

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Speaker 2: you know what to do in inverted commas, or I

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Speaker 2: know the theory of this, I still feel grief. I

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Speaker 2: still feel ashamed, I still feel sad, I still feel lonely,

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Speaker 2: I still feel depressed. So knowing the theory of how

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Speaker 2: to undo this or manage this or treat this doesn't

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Speaker 2: snap me out of anything.

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Speaker 4: No, it doesn't replace the need you know, for that

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Speaker 4: rest or for that you know.

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Speaker 3: Whatever it is.

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Speaker 4: So you're right, I think if anything, it can I

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Speaker 4: guess hinder us sometimes because we do get so stuck

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Speaker 4: in our head and we're shaming ourselves more than we

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Speaker 4: are actually just creating more opportunity and space to actually

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Speaker 4: process it or to just be right to go. I

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Speaker 4: feel sad at I'm not going to try and fix

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Speaker 4: myself right now.

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Speaker 3: I'm just gonna sit in that, sit in that space.

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Speaker 4: And what would I do for a friend that feels sad?

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Speaker 4: You know, I would measure them, I would take care

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Speaker 4: of them. You know, why an't I doing that for myself?

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Speaker 4: Why am I shaming myself in those moments like, that's

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Speaker 4: something that we can really fit with.

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Speaker 2: What's the intersection, sam between shame, which you mentioned a

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Speaker 2: few times. That's an interesting term. It doesn't get brought

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Speaker 2: up that much on this show, but I'm interested in it.

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Speaker 2: Self loathing and shame. Are they first cousins?

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Speaker 1: They do? They hang out at the same bar.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, they go hand in hand.

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Speaker 4: I like to think of I like to compare guilt

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Speaker 4: and shame because guilt can be like I really didn't

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Speaker 4: like my behavior right, like, so they feel really guilty

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Speaker 4: about a behavior when against a value. Shame is like

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Speaker 4: I there is something wrong with me, like I, and

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Speaker 4: they're really hating on themselves as a person. They don't

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Speaker 4: separate their behavior from them They're like, I've messed up.

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Speaker 4: This is just a completely a me issue and there's

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Speaker 4: something inherently wrong with me. And so that's a problem.

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Speaker 4: When we get into shame, we really struggle to find

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Speaker 4: a way back. We really struggle to be able to, yeah,

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Speaker 4: separate the behavior from ourselves.

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Speaker 3: And that's the big difference.

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Speaker 2: Why do you think, Like, I mean, I know this

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Speaker 2: is a there's not a single answer to this, but

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Speaker 2: what what what what triggers that response that shame.

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Speaker 1: I feel a shamed.

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Speaker 2: Is it because we don't live up to our own

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Speaker 2: standards or we don't live our values or what is?

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Speaker 1: What is it?

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Speaker 4: That's such a good question because I think if we

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Speaker 4: look at how that begins, right, we could have I

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Speaker 4: don't know, had caregivers that also struggle to see us

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Speaker 4: separate from the behavior as well.

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Speaker 3: So they were just like, you should know better, like

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Speaker 3: I've told you this before, and you keep doing it.

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Speaker 4: And then the person's like, yeah, I did know this,

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Speaker 4: and I kept doing it, Like there must be something

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Speaker 4: wrong with me because if it, you know, why.

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Speaker 3: Haven't I been able to stop it? So there's that part.

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Speaker 4: But then I also think there's this belief that we

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Speaker 4: can't come back from it, you know. So a lot

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Speaker 4: of the time I've noticed and you know, I've done

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Speaker 4: counseling and prisons and obviously with kids, and you see

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Speaker 4: similar patterns if they deviated right from what is expected

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Speaker 4: of them and they feel so guilty about that because

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Speaker 4: you know, it's against their values and whatever else, but

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Speaker 4: they don't know how to come back from that, They

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Speaker 4: don't know how to recover, and so they just keep going.

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Speaker 3: So it's often not the thing that gets them of track.

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Speaker 4: That's a problem is that they get off track and

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Speaker 4: they just don't believe in their ability to come back.

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Speaker 3: I've done it. It's no way you know forward with this.

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Speaker 4: Instead, then they spiral and they continue to do bad

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Speaker 4: things to themselves or to others.

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Speaker 3: They continue to put others down all themselves.

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Speaker 4: So it really kind of comes down to that, I

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Speaker 4: think self talk, which we often don't see with other people.

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Speaker 4: We don't see how critical hour of themselves because we

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Speaker 4: don't hear those voices, right, we just see how they

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Speaker 4: treat others. We don't actually see that often people who

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Speaker 4: are harming others actually harm themselves first.

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Speaker 3: But the words that they say to themselves, And.

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Speaker 2: What's what's in it for us? Like the beating out?

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Speaker 2: Is there any upside in? Like why do we why

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Speaker 2: do we beat ourselves up? Surely we don't do like

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Speaker 2: even though that seems self destructive or it is self destructive,

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Speaker 2: we must get something out of it in the moment.

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Speaker 1: I'm such a fucking idiot, I always do this.

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Speaker 2: I'm a loser, an an that's self loathing and that

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Speaker 2: shame and that like, what what's the payoff in the

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Speaker 2: moment for us.

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Speaker 4: Well, see, if you think about back again when we

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Speaker 4: were children, there was something sometimes in our environment that

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Speaker 4: is familiar about that, right that we're getting told off

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Speaker 4: and you're doing this again and this is just how

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Speaker 4: you are. And so if you could imagine that kind

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Speaker 4: of talk when you're an adult.

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Speaker 3: It feels familiar.

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Speaker 4: Of course, I'm just an idyt That's why I did that, right,

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Speaker 4: But this is actually going no, it's not. And you know,

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Speaker 4: often a lot of environments would have been like you're

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Speaker 4: just making excuses for yourself, you know, when you're trying

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Speaker 4: to be kind and compassionate to yourself. So I do

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Speaker 4: think that there is this element as well though, of accountability,

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Speaker 4: and that's really important.

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Speaker 3: So you've got the.

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Speaker 4: Self compassion or you're kind to ourselves and you know,

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Speaker 4: something comes up and you give space for that, but

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Speaker 4: then you also kind of hold yourself accountable to hang on.

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Speaker 4: I said that this is what I stand for, and

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Speaker 4: I said that this is what I want to do

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Speaker 4: when I need to kind of you know, meet like

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Speaker 4: strive towards that I think about with the gym's Yes,

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Speaker 4: this is why I think, you know, gym can be

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Speaker 4: really good for trauma survivors. But when you wake up

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Speaker 4: in the morning, if you had a headache, right, a

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Speaker 4: self compassionate response could be, you know what, I've got

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Speaker 4: a headache, Like it's you know, it's it's really bad.

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Speaker 4: I'm actually gonna allow myself to rest for a bit.

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Speaker 4: This doesn't mean that my plan's completely gone for the morning.

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Speaker 4: I'm going to rest and see how I feel. So

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Speaker 4: what you're doing is you're being in tune with your

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Speaker 4: body and you're giving yourself rest. Now, a couple of

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Speaker 4: days could pass and you're like, I still keep saying this,

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Speaker 4: Like I'm actually I'm self sabotaging here, Like I'm not

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Speaker 4: holding myself to this this activity that I know is

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Speaker 4: going to make me feel better in the long run,

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Speaker 4: and I am just wanting this comfort rather than pushing myself.

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Speaker 4: And so that's when you've got that self accountability right,

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Speaker 4: where then you get out of.

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Speaker 3: Bed and you push yourself.

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Speaker 4: But I think both of those things can't be done

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Speaker 4: from the external. Like we have lots of external reinforcements

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Speaker 4: in society these days, we need to learn and to

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Speaker 4: develop this internal compass where we know, okay, this is

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Speaker 4: where I need to keep compashion with myself and this

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Speaker 4: is when I need to be accountable and we keep switching, right,

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Speaker 4: that's where you get that self trust.

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Speaker 2: Mmm. How Like to me, it seems like in the

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Speaker 2: middle of all of this, in order to be able

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Speaker 2: to know this stuff, recognize this stuff, manage our motions

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Speaker 2: and our mind and our behavior in real time, there

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Speaker 2: seems to be a lot of self awareness required, like

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Speaker 2: trying to understand me, Like me, trying to understand me

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Speaker 2: is a cognitive shitfest because I'm me, right, Like, how

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Speaker 2: on earth can I be objective about me? Because everything

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Speaker 2: I think about me is subjective? Right, And me trying

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Speaker 2: to understand my mind using my mind as the tool

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Speaker 2: to understand itself.

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Speaker 1: Like, and I know you get this right, Three.

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Speaker 2: Of my listeners' heads just exploded, right, But because that's

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Speaker 2: so convoluted, But talk to me about my PhD is

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Speaker 2: in self awareness. I'm really interested in just trying to

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Speaker 2: understand and self manage and self reflect and all of

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Speaker 2: that in the middle of a stuff.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, do you know what I mean?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: I do.

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Speaker 4: And I think this is what's difficult, right, because you're right,

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Speaker 4: you're using your own mind to I guess, assess your

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Speaker 4: own mind to judge your own mind. But the problem

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Speaker 4: is then what we do is we go to the

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Speaker 4: other end of the extreme and we give that to

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Speaker 4: an external person. I'll you know, people go to a

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Speaker 4: side and say, assess me, you know, do this questionnaire

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Speaker 4: with me, tell me what my issue is. And so

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Speaker 4: hasn't lived your life, They don't know all your experiences.

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Speaker 4: They could have never known to the level of steps

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Speaker 4: that you have walked your path.

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Speaker 3: And so there is somewhere in the middle there right

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Speaker 3: where we.

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Speaker 4: Can reflect, we can journal things out, we can look

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Speaker 4: at our own loops and then yeah, it does become.

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Speaker 3: Really helpful to talk it over with someone.

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Speaker 4: And you know, therapist is one of those going and

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Speaker 4: this is what I'm saying, and this is what I think,

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Speaker 4: give me something else here is there a blind spot

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Speaker 4: that I've missed, like challenging me, ask me questions?

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Speaker 3: And I think this is where critical reflection comes really good.

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Speaker 4: So we often engage in normal reflection, which is what happened?

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Speaker 4: How did I feel about it? What could I do next?

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Speaker 3: Time?

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Speaker 4: Critical reflection is where you get deeper and you go

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Speaker 4: why do I believe that what was my perception of

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Speaker 4: that thing? What are the assumptions that I'm holding about

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Speaker 4: this thing?

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Speaker 3: What are my biases? What are my core beliefs around it?

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Speaker 3: So then we get deeper.

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Speaker 4: And I think if we're just asking ourselves the right questions,

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Speaker 4: we could also go on that journey where we're continually

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Speaker 4: challenging ourselves and we are looking for this is what

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Speaker 4: I think about it? What else could be true? Give

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Speaker 4: me five other options? Right, also be ways that we

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Speaker 4: could perceive this.

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Speaker 2: Do you think also just going well, this is what

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Speaker 2: I think but could be totally wrong?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Oh, I mean that's okay. That is a definition

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Speaker 4: of psychological flexibility. And often I think people like you know,

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Speaker 4: they call people contradictions or that they're but no, that's

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Speaker 4: actually psychological flexibility, which is not being so rigid about

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Speaker 4: life and being able to adapt and knowing that really

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Speaker 4: life exists among the grats, not just a black and

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Speaker 4: white situation. This is you know, we often have to

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Speaker 4: really get comfortable with that great.

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Speaker 2: Well, when do you think, I mean, as much as

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Speaker 2: you can turn down the emotion and the self protection

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Speaker 2: and the ego and all the bullshit that comes with

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Speaker 2: all the great and all the bullshit that comes with

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Speaker 2: being a human right, if I think about myself, all

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Speaker 2: the things that I've thought and taught and shared, spoken about,

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Speaker 2: acted on, executed, there have been so many things over

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Speaker 2: the years that I was just completely fucking wrong about right,

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Speaker 2: some a bit wrong, some are a little wrong, some

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Speaker 2: are kind of right.

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Speaker 1: There was truth in it.

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Speaker 2: But then things which I mentioned too many times on

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Speaker 2: this show but not to you, like the food pyramid

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Speaker 2: that I taught for twenty years because that was what

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Speaker 2: I thought was correct, and that was what I was

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Speaker 2: taught at university and that was science and blah blah,

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Speaker 2: and then you go, oh, no, wrong, you know, or

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Speaker 2: but just I think if you can kind of pull

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Speaker 2: back the ego a bit and just go, well, of

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Speaker 2: course I could be wrong. I've gotten thousands of things

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Speaker 2: wrong so far in my life.

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Speaker 1: The chances of me.

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Speaker 2: Not getting something wrong today anything pretty much zero and

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Speaker 2: every day. But what we were so self protective, right.

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Speaker 4: Well, yeah, I mean know, that's even a good point

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Speaker 4: the way that you said it, because we could look

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Speaker 4: at that and go, I just keep getting things wrong,

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Speaker 4: so I'm probably going to get it wrong. But also

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Speaker 4: it was probably right at the time, and then.

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Speaker 3: Things change and evolved.

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Speaker 4: We know what we know at one point, right, then

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Speaker 4: we gain more knowledge and experience, and then we change

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Speaker 4: our minds, and that is I mean, honestly, I love

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Speaker 4: those examples. I can look back and go, I believe this,

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Speaker 4: and now I believe something really different because it reflects growths.

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Speaker 4: If you're still talk if you still hold onto the

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Speaker 4: beliefs that you had X amount of times go and

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Speaker 4: you have not shifted that, then that could really indicate

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Speaker 4: a lack of growth. So I think it's really good

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Speaker 4: that we're always evolving and we're always really open to

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Speaker 4: that and going what I know now to be true

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Speaker 4: is probably not going to be the same in a year,

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Speaker 4: a couple of years, and that's okay. This is a

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Speaker 4: journey off life and being a curious researcher.

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Speaker 2: Right one hundred percent and being okay with not only

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Speaker 2: being okay, but being comfortable with being wrong. And also

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Speaker 2: I think one of the challenges is when you believe

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Speaker 2: a thing right and then your identity is intertwined with

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Speaker 2: that belief, well that makes you pretty much unteachable, right,

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Speaker 2: because if you have a set belief and doctor Sam's

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Speaker 2: identity is intertwined with that belief or that ideology or

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Speaker 2: philosophy or whatever, and then I go, hey, Sam, I've

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Speaker 2: just been doing on my own research. I've been talking

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Speaker 2: to these people and guess what I mean. This is

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Speaker 2: a little bit you know. Then if your entire sense

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Speaker 2: of self or a lot of it is intertwined with

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Speaker 2: that ideology, then you're not open.

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Speaker 4: What happens to people They get really rigid because You're right,

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Speaker 4: it shakes their sense of like their identity and how

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Speaker 4: they see themselves and they just can't bear to see that.

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Speaker 3: And I think I hear that a lot.

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Speaker 4: Actually from adult adults whose parents just can't you know,

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Speaker 4: be able to reflect upon certain things, and going yeah, actually,

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Speaker 4: you know, I see that now that that could have

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Speaker 4: really affected you.

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Speaker 3: It's like, Nope, that's what I did, and I did

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Speaker 3: the best.

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Speaker 4: And I don't want to hear anything else because it

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Speaker 4: really shakes and how they saw themselves right back then.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, It's like I was really interested a few minutes

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Speaker 2: ago when you were talking about you know, psychevals when

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Speaker 2: someone goes and sits with somebody and they do you know,

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Speaker 2: the you know, the mental health professional whoever it is,

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Speaker 2: or the health professional does some kind of you know,

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Speaker 2: personality profile or cognitive assessment or whatever, some kind of

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Speaker 2: psychological evaluation. And then yeah, so the person who's doing

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Speaker 2: the test is seeing somebody for you know, what is

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Speaker 2: essentially a drop of water in a lifetime that is

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Speaker 2: an ocean. Right, It's like, I'm I've never this person

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Speaker 2: has been around for millions of minutes, and now I'm

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Speaker 2: meeting them for thirty minutes, and then I'm telling them

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Speaker 2: everything that's good and bad with them and.

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Speaker 1: What they should do. And so what is the.

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Speaker 2: Like, what are the pros and cons of psychological evaluations

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Speaker 2: in that sense? Like what are your thoughts? I've got

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Speaker 2: a few thoughts, but I want to hear yours first.

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Speaker 4: Well, I mean, let's start with the pros because I

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Speaker 4: really feel like it's more of a systems based pros.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 4: So for a lot of a lot of the time,

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Speaker 4: kids can't access funding unless they have an evaluation or

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Speaker 4: a diagnosis.

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Speaker 3: So that's where I feel like.

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Speaker 4: The DSM came in to be able to kind of

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Speaker 4: organize these categories, to be able to give out either

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Speaker 4: medication or to give out yet funding. I think for

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Speaker 4: the person, right, what often feels like validation of like,

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Speaker 4: oh this is a name to it now I understand

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Speaker 4: it it actually existed before the appointment, is just because

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Speaker 4: they didn't really give themselves, I guess, the chance to

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Speaker 4: validate their own experiences.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 4: So a lot of the time people are struggling with

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Speaker 4: massive amounts of anxiety and all the symptoms, and they

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Speaker 4: know that all these symptoms, but then they wait for

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Speaker 4: that appointment to be like you have generalized anxiety disorder.

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Speaker 4: They're like, oh, what a relief. I do have anxiety.

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Speaker 4: But it's like they had anxiety along. It was just

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Speaker 4: because they were waiting for the other person to kind

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Speaker 4: of validate. So I feel like the diagnostic process these

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Speaker 4: days are very limited because it is a bit of

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Speaker 4: a check box. I mean, this is not a blood test, right,

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Speaker 4: this is a checkbox, and so it is very subjective,

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Speaker 4: and so I think often if we can look at

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Speaker 4: the symptoms that we're experiencing and then being able to go,

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Speaker 4: I'm having this experience of anxiety, I'm having an experience

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Speaker 4: of depression, we could actually get a lot quicker to

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Speaker 4: the tools that we we need to be able to

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Speaker 4: work towards healing. So I don't think it's very trauma

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Speaker 4: informed either. So it's often about what is wrong with

441
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:10,040
Speaker 4: you versus what's happened to you? And I think if

442
00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:12,480
Speaker 4: we really focused on what's happened to you right from

443
00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:15,240
Speaker 4: the beginning of childhood and then our adult years and

444
00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:19,360
Speaker 4: all these experiences and relationships and situations and these unique contexts,

445
00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:22,120
Speaker 4: and we actually understood our story, we would understand why

446
00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:24,240
Speaker 4: we're struggling with what we're struggling with, and then we

447
00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,040
Speaker 4: would allow the opportunities that we need to heal and

448
00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:30,080
Speaker 4: grow because we get it right, and that's the only

449
00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:31,520
Speaker 4: person that needs to get it is just us.

450
00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:33,440
Speaker 3: I would say, what's your thoughts?

451
00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:39,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like thanks, I feel like you know,

452
00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:45,960
Speaker 1: like I designed a measurement tool.

453
00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:49,959
Speaker 2: Called the S forty, which is the You Experienced Scale,

454
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:55,200
Speaker 2: which is evaluating you know, it's behavioral, emotional, cognitive, social.

455
00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:59,879
Speaker 1: It's like a three column tool where we where we

456
00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:01,960
Speaker 1: measure a range of things.

457
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:04,480
Speaker 2: So it's like how I see me, you know, So

458
00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:06,640
Speaker 2: column one is I self rate.

459
00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:09,680
Speaker 1: On all of these on this, you know, like I

460
00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:13,000
Speaker 1: am empathetic? You know, one seven like cart scale. Oh

461
00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:16,320
Speaker 1: I'm super empathetic. I'm giving myself seven. So I rate me.

462
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,680
Speaker 2: And then let's say you and I wear close acquaintances. Right,

463
00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:22,439
Speaker 2: So we we rate each other and you do the

464
00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:25,359
Speaker 2: same thing. So I rate myself on all forty criteria,

465
00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:29,119
Speaker 2: and you know there's ten different kind of measures in

466
00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:34,199
Speaker 2: each area behavioral, emotional, cognitive, social. I rate myself, and

467
00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:37,120
Speaker 2: then I rate you. Then I rate how I see

468
00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:41,320
Speaker 2: SAM on all of those variables or factors, and then

469
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,560
Speaker 2: I rate Column three is how I think you see me.

470
00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:48,320
Speaker 2: So that's metaperception, right. So column one is me rating

471
00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:51,800
Speaker 2: me on all these things. Column two is me rating

472
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:54,159
Speaker 2: you on all those things, and then column three is

473
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,400
Speaker 2: how I think you perceive me, which is met exception.

474
00:21:57,560 --> 00:21:59,760
Speaker 2: Then how good I am at that as meta accuracy?

475
00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:00,000
Speaker 3: Right?

476
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:04,280
Speaker 1: But anyway, what is funny is I noticed that.

477
00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:09,880
Speaker 2: I could give this you know, this tool, this kind

478
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:14,720
Speaker 2: of this test or evaluation to somebody on a certain

479
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,000
Speaker 2: dat at a certain time, you know, and we would

480
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:19,480
Speaker 2: get totally different data to if we gave the same

481
00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,520
Speaker 2: test to the same person in different context or at

482
00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:25,080
Speaker 2: a different time of day. And like, this is what

483
00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:29,320
Speaker 2: I think about, you know, it depends like the testing

484
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:32,879
Speaker 2: conditions and the time of day, and are they hungry,

485
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:34,800
Speaker 2: are they fatigued? Is it early in the day, is

486
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:36,520
Speaker 2: it late in the day of that a good day

487
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:38,560
Speaker 2: or a bad day? Did they sleep well? Did they

488
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,720
Speaker 2: sleep shit? Like I just think in and I'm kind

489
00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:43,800
Speaker 2: of throwing you and me under the bus a little bit,

490
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:48,600
Speaker 2: but I think some of the science in psychology it's

491
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:50,200
Speaker 2: not bullshit, but it's.

492
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:51,840
Speaker 1: A dodgy do you know what I'm saying.

493
00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:55,040
Speaker 4: It's like, yeah, as well, because what you just said

494
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:57,080
Speaker 4: there makes complete sense. And imagine if we gave people

495
00:22:57,119 --> 00:22:59,560
Speaker 4: the tools to go, Okay, so this is what happened

496
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:01,480
Speaker 4: and so are you hungry? Then were you this like

497
00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:04,359
Speaker 4: for them to kind of self be able to not

498
00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,159
Speaker 4: just monitor themselves, but actually I would say audit and

499
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:09,359
Speaker 4: going okay, the problems that I think I have, how

500
00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:11,200
Speaker 4: was I feeling them? Did I get enough sleep? Have

501
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:12,160
Speaker 4: I got my basics down?

502
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:12,440
Speaker 3: Part?

503
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 4: Because I feel like it kind of helps them, right

504
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,159
Speaker 4: rather just taking the snapshot and like you said, they

505
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 4: don't have the context. They could not be feeling great

506
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,480
Speaker 4: and then they're just so fixated now on the results.

507
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:24,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And it's like one of my.

508
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,600
Speaker 2: One of my studies I ran, we had face to

509
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,840
Speaker 2: face I had I did two parts, so it was

510
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,879
Speaker 2: one study in two parts at Monash University, and I

511
00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:41,040
Speaker 2: had in kind of installment one which was it doesn't

512
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:42,280
Speaker 2: matter Thursday night or whatever.

513
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:43,800
Speaker 1: I had about one hundred.

514
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,480
Speaker 2: People, and then in installment too, so it was just

515
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:50,000
Speaker 2: done in two parts. It was the same study. And

516
00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:52,360
Speaker 2: if you if you did the if you filled out

517
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:55,520
Speaker 2: all the forms and the questionnaires properly, and I mean

518
00:23:55,720 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 2: give or take, it would take about, ah maybe thirty

519
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,920
Speaker 2: to fifty minutes, you know, to do it pretty well,

520
00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 2: because as you know, you can't you can't ask people

521
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,560
Speaker 2: to do shit for three hours because they resent it

522
00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:14,280
Speaker 2: and they don't. But what was funny is so there

523
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:16,919
Speaker 2: were some people who were there because they really wanted

524
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,600
Speaker 2: to be there, and so they were very thorough and

525
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:22,960
Speaker 2: they really gave everything a lot of thought and you

526
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,760
Speaker 2: could kind of get the sense that this is probably

527
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 2: going to.

528
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:26,720
Speaker 1: Be good data.

529
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:29,879
Speaker 2: And there were then there was a few people there

530
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,439
Speaker 2: who were there because they were getting credits for being there, right,

531
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 2: so God bless the students. But like there were a

532
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:41,720
Speaker 2: few of them who got through, Like even if you

533
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 2: were amazing, you couldn't get through any quicker than twenty

534
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 2: five minutes.

535
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,040
Speaker 1: Like they're getting through in ten minutes. I'm like, well,

536
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:50,640
Speaker 1: you're not even doing it, you know.

537
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 2: What I mean, And then you've kind of got to

538
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,919
Speaker 2: figure out, Okay, well do I keep this in?

539
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 1: Do I keep this out?

540
00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 3: Do I?

541
00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 4: Yah? See, that would be tricky as a research thing,

542
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 4: because I think of that in general though, with I

543
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,199
Speaker 4: don't know, scales that measure anxiety and depression. You know,

544
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,200
Speaker 4: it's really how that person feels as they're going through

545
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:07,919
Speaker 4: that scale, it's going to be very different. So if

546
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,120
Speaker 4: you had a conversation with them and understood where that started,

547
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,040
Speaker 4: and you know how they've kind of approached it to

548
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 4: date and being able to have that, I guess that

549
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:20,639
Speaker 4: qualitive qualitative measure versus a quantitative Yeah.

550
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, very interesting, And that's I mean, then that's the

551
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 2: whole messiness of psychological research or psychology research, you know.

552
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:33,360
Speaker 2: I wanted to ask you. You probably mentioned the word healing,

553
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 2: heal or healing six or seven times.

554
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:38,120
Speaker 1: I love it. I love it.

555
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 2: I want to know what is the difference between or

556
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 2: the overlap of healing and recovery?

557
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:50,120
Speaker 1: Is that analogous? Is that different? Do they coexist?

558
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 3: Yeah? I feel like they're recovery.

559
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,359
Speaker 4: I don't know, I feel like they're both for me,

560
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 4: like the journey right, because we're never recovered, we're never healed.

561
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:04,959
Speaker 4: So I think it's I mean, someone can go I'm

562
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 4: on a recovery journey, and someone can go on.

563
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:07,400
Speaker 3: A healing journey.

564
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 4: I did actually a post about this the other day

565
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,639
Speaker 4: because I hear often people talk about I need to

566
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 4: take a break from healing, like it's getting too much,

567
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 4: And you know, my argument is that we should need

568
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:19,879
Speaker 4: a break from the inner work.

569
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:21,879
Speaker 3: Because if that means we're doing it in the wrong way,

570
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:23,359
Speaker 3: if we feel like we need a break from it, if.

571
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 4: We only see inner work as putting ourselves down or

572
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:30,920
Speaker 4: you know, yoga and climbing activities and constantly analyzing ourselves,

573
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:33,680
Speaker 4: if that's only the inner work, then yeah, of course

574
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:35,160
Speaker 4: you're gonna need a break from it. But I feel

575
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 4: like the inner.

576
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:37,520
Speaker 3: Work is giving yourselves what you need.

577
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:40,639
Speaker 4: That could be dancing, that could be more rest, that

578
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,679
Speaker 4: could be taking a break from more of the intellectual

579
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 4: stuff and just having more experiences of living life. So

580
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 4: I feel like it could all be healing if we

581
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 4: again take that approach. If I'm going to follow what

582
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 4: I need here and constantly you know, recess and reevaluate

583
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,200
Speaker 4: to keep myself accountable, but at the same time, yeah,

584
00:26:58,240 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 4: giving ourselves a break could still be healing.

585
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 3: Having fun is still healing.

586
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:05,920
Speaker 2: So we talk a lot in exercise science, SAM and

587
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 2: nutrition and lots of other health related kind of spaces

588
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 2: about trying to find, you know, what is the best

589
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,120
Speaker 2: diet for you, what is the best exercise protocol for you?

590
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 2: And I know you spend lots of time in the gym.

591
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:21,640
Speaker 1: Is you know what is optimal for you?

592
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 2: Because you know, I could get another guy who's my

593
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 2: age and my height, my weight, AND's got the same

594
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:28,760
Speaker 2: goals as me, and we both do the same workout

595
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:30,399
Speaker 2: and I'm good and he can't move.

596
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 1: For four days, right.

597
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:36,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, Or he eats on average two thousand calories a day.

598
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,719
Speaker 2: I eat on average two thousand calories a day and

599
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 2: I gain weight that I don't want to gain, and

600
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,919
Speaker 2: he is not getting enough. He needs twenty two, I

601
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,199
Speaker 2: need eighteen or whatever. It could be thirty two or

602
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:52,120
Speaker 2: twenty eight, doesn't matter. But it's like, you know, physiologically,

603
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 2: the same thing will create a different response in different people,

604
00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:00,680
Speaker 2: because of course, nobody other than some identical twins of course,

605
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:01,440
Speaker 2: have got.

606
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:02,400
Speaker 1: The same physiology.

607
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 2: So it's not trying to figure out what's the best

608
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 2: protocol the end, but rather what's the best protocol for Cray,

609
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 2: what's the best protocol for Sam?

610
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 1: Like how you know.

611
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 2: When we look at sets and reps and overload and

612
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 2: cardio and fucking target heart range and hours of sleep

613
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 2: and micros and macros and calories in and out and

614
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,399
Speaker 2: situation and environment and job, and you know, it's like

615
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 2: my job is I reckon? For me, if not the

616
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 2: best job, I don't know what it is, but for me,

617
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:34,880
Speaker 2: it's one of the best. It's probably the best job.

618
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 2: Like I'm doing, I'm talking to you. You're smart, You're

619
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 2: great to talk to.

620
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 1: This is my job. This I'm getting paid for this,

621
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 1: This show is sponsored. This is ridiculous, Right.

622
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 2: I go and I talk to you know, I was

623
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 2: in Queensland on Monday and Tuesday talking to awesome people

624
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 2: about all the shit that I'm fascinated with. I go

625
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 2: up there, I talk about the shit I'm obsessed with.

626
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 2: They give me money and I fly back.

627
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 1: Right. So for me, it's almost like the dream job.

628
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 1: And I'm never not grateful. I'm always grateful.

629
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 2: But for somebody else that job would be a fucking nightmare.

630
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, good you.

631
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 4: Know, and that's the importance, right, like you said, of

632
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 4: having those individual protocols, because you could have even the

633
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 4: best exercise plan for someone and then they just don't

634
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 4: do it because it's not working in their schedule. So

635
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 4: it's actually not the best plan for them, you know,

636
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 4: So then you're having to tweak it and you're trying

637
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 4: to find their barriers, I would assume.

638
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 3: So yeah, very and very good points. Well.

639
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 2: And then and then if we try to extrapolate that

640
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 2: to you know, helping people with you know, trauma and

641
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 2: grief and a myriad of mental health issues that you know,

642
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 2: you understand way better than me. And what's going to

643
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 2: work for kid one might not work at all for

644
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 2: Kid two. It could be a catastrophe for kid three

645
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 2: or grown up four. And so to what extent when

646
00:29:53,040 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 2: you are prescribing treatment, therapy, healing or going on that journey,

647
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 2: to what extent is it flexible and intuitive? Oh?

648
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 3: It has to be.

649
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 4: Like that's actually the number one thing that I really

650
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 4: hone in on even with when I'm talking and teaching

651
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 4: those professionals about therapeutic play.

652
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 3: We have to be adaptable.

653
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 4: And what we need to know is we need to

654
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 4: know the next step right, but then being able to

655
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 4: take feedback from the environment, from the child, and then

656
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 4: being able to adapt and to rejig our plan. I

657
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 4: think too often I see these really great behavior plans

658
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 4: and they're super rigid, and they don't even survive first

659
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 4: contact with the child.

660
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 3: And then you know, professionals get really.

661
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 4: Down to themselves and they're like, no, but I had

662
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 4: all the best stuff in there, and it should work.

663
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 4: And so we then become like I said, rigid rather

664
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 4: than going actually, we just need to know the next step,

665
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 4: and then also being really open to gathering more information

666
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 4: about the child. And I think adults should treat healing

667
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 4: like that too. We need to know the next thing

668
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 4: and just start looking for that feedback.

669
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 3: Is this working for me? What would working look like?

670
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 4: How can I readus recess, reevaluate? It's always a work

671
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 4: in progress. I think we need to, yeah, be as

672
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 4: adaptable and flexible as we can while still, you know,

673
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 4: stay on track with our goals or our direction.

674
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 1: To what extent.

675
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 2: I absolutely have no idea about the answer to this question.

676
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 2: Often I asked something I think I have an idea

677
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 2: of the answer. I'm often wrong, of course, but I

678
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 2: have no idea what the answer to this is. You know,

679
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 2: so in some settings and contexts with some problems, kids

680
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 2: will be medicated, even adults, right, But to what extent

681
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 2: could play therapy replace medication? Is there, ever, are.

682
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 1: There cases where or.

683
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 2: Conditions I guess is maybe another word where this kid

684
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 2: is going to you know, experience improvements physiological, psychological, emotional

685
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 2: improvements greater are like by climbing up a fucking tree,

686
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 2: or rolling around on the floor with a phone ball,

687
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,479
Speaker 2: or I don't know, jumping on a dinosaur. Is that

688
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 2: I feel like that's a much better route than popping

689
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 2: pills if it's.

690
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,320
Speaker 4: Effective, definitely, But you know what I think is always

691
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 4: going to be the barer here. We will see what

692
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 4: we want to see. If we believe that medication is

693
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 4: the thing that's going to help, you know, a child,

694
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 4: we're going to be very I guess fixated on that.

695
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 4: And it's like, nope, I've tried on the things. It's

696
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 4: not working, and we've reached the end here, and a

697
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 4: lot of parents, you know, they're like they really do

698
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 4: feel stretched, they really do feel like they have tried

699
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 4: all the things and this is the only thing that

700
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 4: can shift it. But then I feel like, and this

701
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 4: is a bit of a playful mindset to think of,

702
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,239
Speaker 4: imagine if medication wasn't available, what would we do?

703
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 3: How would we manage it? And then we go into

704
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 3: that and I think as adults we can do that

705
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 3: as well.

706
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 4: We could find adults being in situations where they go,

707
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 4: I'm anxious, I just want that medication. Hang on, what

708
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 4: if I just pretended like that wasn't available?

709
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 3: What would I do instead? And then you know, making

710
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:46,120
Speaker 3: a plan that way.

711
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 4: So I don't think it's clear cut because this is

712
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 4: a very subjective experience. You could talk to someone. It's

713
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 4: not a blot test. There's not you know, definite things

714
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 4: about this. It's really the environment that the child's in

715
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 4: as well, if they believe they can do with or

716
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 4: without it. But I think it does get to a

717
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 4: point that whether you're using medication or not, all those

718
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 4: other things can help. And so we really do need

719
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 4: to realize it's not we do the natural stuff or

720
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 4: we do the medication. It's whatever path you choose, natural

721
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 4: or medication, you still need to do the strategy or

722
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 4: you still need to do those things because it's not

723
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 4: going to create this perfect child or this perfect situation anyway.

724
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I guess if you're medicating symptoms, which I

725
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 2: completely understand, right, there's no judgment in that. But you know,

726
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 2: somebody's got a certain symptom, we give them medication, the

727
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 2: symptom goes away or the symptom improves, but we're still

728
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 2: not fixing the underlying thing that's causing the whatever, right,

729
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 2: And so to what extent do we And again I

730
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 2: don't know enough about this, So I'm just a dumbass

731
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 2: asking questions, So please don't hate me. Parents, don't go

732
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 2: what do you fucking I don't know anything, right, So

733
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 2: I'm asking honestly, like I feel like it would be

734
00:33:56,360 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 2: while I understand the chemical approach, I myself have used

735
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 2: the chemical approach for many things in my life, not

736
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,320
Speaker 2: list drugs, but of course, of course, like thank God

737
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 2: for painkillers when my back has been fucked thirty times. Right,

738
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 2: But to what extent can we like treat the underlying

739
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 2: stuff that is the producer of the symptoms. Yeah, you know,

740
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 2: we play therapy or you know whatever.

741
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 4: In general, Yeah, I think to a huge extent. And

742
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 4: I think that's why I really try and help parents

743
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:33,840
Speaker 4: to not get to fixated on do I communication or

744
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 4: do I not? You know, it's like we can experiment

745
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:38,440
Speaker 4: with either option. That is okay, absolutely no judgment, like

746
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 4: you said, but when you've but aside.

747
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,319
Speaker 3: From that, that's one piece of the puzzle. So what

748
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 3: about all these other pieces?

749
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,400
Speaker 4: And I think that is about really targeting the self

750
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 4: talk for kids, really talking about the role of the environment,

751
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:53,839
Speaker 4: because that does matter, right, Our environment can either work

752
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:56,719
Speaker 4: for or against us. Talk about the stories that we

753
00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 4: hold about ourselves, our cool beliefs, why do we be,

754
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 4: what we do, what is our sception of these things,

755
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 4: and then looking at those practices on a daily basis

756
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:05,399
Speaker 4: that we show up for ourselves or that we care

757
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 4: for ourselves so that we create room in our life

758
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,919
Speaker 4: for joy and full play and for all those things. So, yeah,

759
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:14,320
Speaker 4: I don't think it's either either. It's more like, okay,

760
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:15,719
Speaker 4: that's a medical thing, and if you haven't tried it,

761
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 4: you want to try it, go ahead, But it doesn't

762
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:20,319
Speaker 4: replace the need for all those other things. So let's

763
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 4: start like, let's just continue ticking away at that.

764
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's interesting when you think that you could

765
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 2: take I was going to mention the name of drug.

766
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 2: I won't, but you could take drug a and it

767
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:33,840
Speaker 2: might lower your heart rate, might lower your blood pressure.

768
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 2: It might tone down your bloody sympathetic nervous system or

769
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:39,880
Speaker 2: switch on your pair. You know, you might start to

770
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 2: it might change your physiology in that sense and you

771
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 2: move out of a state of a heightened state to

772
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:46,879
Speaker 2: a more relaxed state.

773
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 1: Data.

774
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,799
Speaker 2: Or you could go for a run, and not that

775
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:52,880
Speaker 2: that would work for everybody, but some people you go

776
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 2: for a run, you get home. I know when I run,

777
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 2: I get home and I feel like calm. I just

778
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,960
Speaker 2: I see it usually especially if I run hard. Or

779
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 2: for some people that might be whatever meditation, or it

780
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 2: might be being in nature.

781
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 1: But they it's funny the thing that that.

782
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 2: A drug does, which is change of physiology, change biochemistry.

783
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:20,440
Speaker 2: So does swimming in the ocean yep, and running it does.

784
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 1: Yeah.

785
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:22,959
Speaker 4: Yeah, And you know a good point about that, because

786
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 4: I think the issue here is when someone goes no,

787
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 4: I definitely need that medication, and you might go hang on,

788
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 4: you could go for a run.

789
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 3: What they hear is I'm not doing something. I've caused this.

790
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:32,879
Speaker 3: This is my fault.

791
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 4: If only I went for the run, I wouldn't feel

792
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 4: like that. And so then they run and they come

793
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 4: back and they're like, I don't feel better. See it

794
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 4: didn't work, you know, versus I think the way that

795
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 4: you explain it is really good, which is, yes, medication

796
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:45,799
Speaker 4: can change our brain physology, but so can running. So

797
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 4: what running does? It actually rewires our brain. So does

798
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:52,319
Speaker 4: meditation that rewires our brain. So there's a whole bunch

799
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 4: of things that really our brain. It's not just medication,

800
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 4: And I think the way that we can approach it

801
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,279
Speaker 4: can vastly change, right, because it's just not a lack

802
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:01,279
Speaker 4: of things that we're not it's just giving our brain

803
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:04,880
Speaker 4: another experience, and medication is one, but then we've got

804
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:05,919
Speaker 4: all these other things too.

805
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 2: I my listeners know this, pologies listeners. But about eight

806
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:14,239
Speaker 2: months ago, Sam I was my phone, gave me an

807
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 2: alert and it said it basically went, you're super lazy.

808
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 1: To get off your ass, right.

809
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 2: It said you are walking on average four and a

810
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:25,400
Speaker 2: half thousand or four thousand, two hundred some disgraceful amount

811
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:29,279
Speaker 2: of steps per day. Right, this mister excise science DoD right,

812
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:34,840
Speaker 2: And I went, how am I walking so few steps?

813
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:37,840
Speaker 2: And this was averaged over the last three months or something,

814
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 2: So it wasn't just a day or two. It was

815
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 2: all the days on average, and I went, right, I

816
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:47,919
Speaker 2: can't do that. That's unacceptable, And so I just made

817
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 2: a resolution just to me, and I went, well, from tomorrow,

818
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 2: I'm going to walk ten thousand steps a day.

819
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 1: That's it. Every day. I'll just figure it out, right,

820
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 1: So I'll make phone.

821
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 2: Calls when I walk, I'll listen to a podcast, I'll

822
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 2: listen to some research, or I might just walk and

823
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 2: do nothing. I might just because I live eight hundred

824
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 2: metres from the beach, I might just walk to the

825
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 2: beach and fucking hang out with nature, you know. But

826
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:12,279
Speaker 2: the funny thing is, since I did that, and I

827
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:14,840
Speaker 2: haven't stopped that, since I've done that every day since,

828
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 2: and I probably averaged closer to fifteen thousand steps a day.

829
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,840
Speaker 2: But what I and I only did it for the

830
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:27,720
Speaker 2: physiological you know, the health, heart, health, moving my body, hips, flexibility,

831
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 2: not sitting at a fucking chair, posture, all that stuff,

832
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,759
Speaker 2: and all of those things have really worked. But the

833
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 2: thing that I didn't do it for and didn't expect

834
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:44,359
Speaker 2: was my energy all day is better. And I mean

835
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,359
Speaker 2: my physical energy but also my emotional energy, not all

836
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 2: day every day, but on average, it's better every day,

837
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:56,880
Speaker 2: my mental acuity better, my cognitive performance better, my ability. Like,

838
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 2: I've been up since five this morning, it's caught to

839
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 2: past seven, and I haven't eaten since eight o'clock this morning,

840
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:07,160
Speaker 2: right and right now, so it's almost twelve hours since

841
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 2: I've eaten. I only eat two meals a day. I've

842
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 2: been up and pretty busy and pretty productive for fourteen hours.

843
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:18,239
Speaker 2: I feel fucking great and I'm sixty one. And that's

844
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,879
Speaker 2: not an advertisement for me. That's just like, oh, now,

845
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 2: a year ago, I was fucked in the afternoon. You

846
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 2: know I was, and I'm not saying so therefore, if

847
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 2: you do this everyone, that will be the outcome.

848
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 3: So the core difference you feel is the steps.

849
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 2: One hundred percent. And so I'm literally walking probably two

850
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 2: to three times every day more than I did.

851
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 1: It's like a thing came up.

852
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 3: So how many steps should you stay? On average? Would

853
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:47,920
Speaker 3: you do?

854
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 1: Yeah?

855
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 2: On average around thirteen to thirteen and a half on

856
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 2: average someday sixteen, some days eleven, right, but mostly getting

857
00:39:56,719 --> 00:39:57,840
Speaker 2: up towards fifteen.

858
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:00,839
Speaker 1: I also lift weight every day and all of that.

859
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:05,960
Speaker 2: But here's my point, Like, there's been this psychological and

860
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 2: so I feel calmer, I feel clearer, but also this

861
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:15,680
Speaker 2: cognitive shift, which is I can focus for longer, I

862
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 2: feel more present.

863
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:18,200
Speaker 1: You know.

864
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:19,799
Speaker 2: The other day, like I said to you, I was

865
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 2: in Queensland working and I'm in front of groups for hours, hours,

866
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 2: and I experienced no fatigue.

867
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 3: Wow, that's incredible.

868
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:32,399
Speaker 4: Do you think that the eating twice a day helps

869
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 4: with that too? Gives do you want to see galories

870
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 4: when you do that?

871
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 2: Or is it just totally instinctively so I think one

872
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 2: of them. We're digressing here, but fuck, it's interesting anyway.

873
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 2: I truly believe that one of the one of the

874
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 2: consequences of life in the new millennia is that and

875
00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:00,160
Speaker 2: before is that we've become disconnected from our body. We

876
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,400
Speaker 2: don't We're not We're not plugged into the wisdom that

877
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 2: is biofeedback.

878
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:05,280
Speaker 1: We're not plugged.

879
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 2: You know when you think, I mean in a million ways,

880
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 2: but you think just about food. I mean, and this

881
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:15,840
Speaker 2: is no, I'm not throwing any heat on anyone because

882
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:18,880
Speaker 2: I did this right. I had a toxic or not toxic.

883
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 2: I had an unhealthy relationship with food for a long time.

884
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 2: I would have had very close to an eating disorder.

885
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 2: Definitely disordered eating. But I would eat just because it's

886
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:31,799
Speaker 2: time to eat. Oh wow, it's time to eat, and

887
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:34,840
Speaker 2: I wouldn't even be hungry, like my body is giving

888
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:39,160
Speaker 2: me no signals that I need food, right. And there

889
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:40,920
Speaker 2: have been times in my life where I was morbidly

890
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:43,600
Speaker 2: obese when I was younger, and then I was I

891
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:44,759
Speaker 2: don't know if you know that.

892
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 1: Did you know I was a fat kid?

893
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:47,959
Speaker 3: Saying that in one of the elia.

894
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so I was morbidly obese when I was

895
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 2: a kid, and then when I got older, I also

896
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:54,359
Speaker 2: lost my way and going a whole lot of weight

897
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:58,359
Speaker 2: and blah blah blah. But anyway, for me, it's I

898
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:02,400
Speaker 2: think one of the mardest things we can do is

899
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 2: try to reconnect with our body. Because our body is

900
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 2: fucking brilliant. Our body is wisdom, our body is information,

901
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:10,280
Speaker 2: our body is guidance.

902
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 1: But what we do is.

903
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 2: We go, oh, old mate said I should eat this, Well,

904
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:21,440
Speaker 2: how about instead of old mate who doesn't know your body,

905
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 2: who doesn't understand your physiology, who did a course well done,

906
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 2: did a course right.

907
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 1: It's even when.

908
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:30,799
Speaker 2: People say to me, what's the best way for me

909
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:35,839
Speaker 2: to get strong or increase muscular endurance or whatever it is.

910
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 1: I go, look, I don't know you.

911
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:39,239
Speaker 2: I don't know how your bi can talk to you

912
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:44,279
Speaker 2: about the fundamentals of exercise science, adaptation, progressive overload, you know, physiology,

913
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:48,360
Speaker 2: biomechanicsper I can do that. But how your body will

914
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:53,799
Speaker 2: individually respond to a particular stimulus or stimuli, I don't know.

915
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 2: So let's start with something and then you pay attention

916
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:02,359
Speaker 2: to what's working and what's not working, and we'll do

917
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:05,320
Speaker 2: an N equals one project, which is why my show

918
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:09,200
Speaker 2: is called the You Project, because I think our lives

919
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:12,719
Speaker 2: in a way are ongoing experiments with that.

920
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 3: That is the research for me to so yeah, to

921
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:17,799
Speaker 3: keep experimenting with what works and what doesn't. And so

922
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:19,280
Speaker 3: you probably would have done that with your food.

923
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 4: Then it's like you start somewhere and then you took

924
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:23,839
Speaker 4: feedback I'm assuming, and then you tweak it and then

925
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 4: you find something that works.

926
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:29,319
Speaker 2: In COVID, I gained about four kilos, which for me

927
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:31,800
Speaker 2: is quite a bit because I always have a generally

928
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 2: hover within one or two k's right, And you know,

929
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 2: it's not like I didn't lose my shit over It

930
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:40,800
Speaker 2: wasn't a big trauma or anything, But I went, oh,

931
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:43,760
Speaker 2: and because I was moving less, the gyms were closed.

932
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:46,840
Speaker 1: It was just, you know, a first world problem.

933
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:51,399
Speaker 2: But nonetheless it was tricky, right, And so one day

934
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 2: I thought, all right, I'm gonna I think I went

935
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:57,399
Speaker 2: from like eighty five to eighty nine kilos and I went, well,

936
00:43:57,960 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 2: and I could feel it, and you know, it's not

937
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:03,120
Speaker 2: life threatening, and I wasn't, you know, having sleepless nights.

938
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 1: But I went, what am I going to do? What

939
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:05,719
Speaker 1: practically can I do?

940
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 2: Because I was probably well obviously definitely eating a few things.

941
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:13,959
Speaker 1: I didn't need, right, It's more in the want than need.

942
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 2: Category, right, So I went, well, you know what, I'm

943
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:18,839
Speaker 2: just going to not eat lunch for two weeks. So

944
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:21,919
Speaker 2: I'll eat breakfast, I'll eat dinner, and if I happen

945
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 2: to be genuinely hungry around one or two or three,

946
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:27,800
Speaker 2: I might have a little snack.

947
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:28,760
Speaker 3: Yeah.

948
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:32,560
Speaker 2: Day one day, one sam of the fourteen, I got

949
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:37,319
Speaker 2: to about two or three o'clock and I realized, well,

950
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 2: one I wasn't hungry because once I kind of commit,

951
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:41,720
Speaker 2: I just I don't once.

952
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:42,320
Speaker 1: I go lunch.

953
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:45,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, what lunch is not an option? So I don't

954
00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:46,440
Speaker 2: think about what I'm going.

955
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:47,000
Speaker 1: To eat for lots.

956
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:49,719
Speaker 4: You no coffees as well, like are you going completely

957
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:51,080
Speaker 4: after Yeah?

958
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 1: Well I would.

959
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:55,719
Speaker 2: I would have tea through the day with water and

960
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:57,840
Speaker 2: you know, a dash of milk. But I wasn't eating

961
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:02,360
Speaker 2: a meal, but the unexpected consequence, so I did. I

962
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:05,720
Speaker 2: lost the weight, which probably took a month, not two weeks,

963
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:11,680
Speaker 2: but was my mental clarity and my mental energy didn't

964
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:15,799
Speaker 2: wane through the afternoon. Now until that, every afternoon I

965
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 2: was hitting this kind of energy.

966
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:20,720
Speaker 1: Wall where I'm like ah, and I used.

967
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:22,800
Speaker 2: To go, well, of course you are, because you're fifty

968
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:25,839
Speaker 2: eight year old as fuck, you're tired. You know, this

969
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 2: is what happens. And yeah, that was the That was

970
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 2: the last time I ate lunch.

971
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:33,279
Speaker 3: And that was so how do you know you're getting

972
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 3: enough during the day?

973
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:35,399
Speaker 4: Then, I mean like, sorry, how do you know you're

974
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:36,720
Speaker 4: not getting enough with your two meals?

975
00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 3: Are they like monster meals?

976
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 2: No?

977
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 1: Not at all, not at all.

978
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:43,360
Speaker 2: But what I do is it's like I'll eat dinner

979
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:45,879
Speaker 2: and then if I think, oh, I'm still hungry, I'll

980
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:48,440
Speaker 2: wait half an hour, maybe maybe an hour, and then

981
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 2: if in an hour I'm still hungry, I'll go have

982
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:55,239
Speaker 2: something else. But there's a you know, trying to distinguish

983
00:45:55,440 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 2: between a craving and hunger like this is, oh, this

984
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:06,319
Speaker 2: is a signal from my body that it needs more energy.

985
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:06,680
Speaker 1: You know.

986
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:11,160
Speaker 2: That is that is the challenge, and it's it's you know,

987
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 2: there's my body's But I hate to say this. I'm

988
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 2: going to say it, and this is am I going

989
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:18,359
Speaker 2: to say it? Yeah, I need to give up. My

990
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 2: body's been telling me lately. This is like my last

991
00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:25,040
Speaker 2: fucking bastion, right, I need to give up artificial sweetener.

992
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:29,400
Speaker 2: Some research just came out on artificial sweetener, which is

993
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 2: not great, right, And I'm like, ah, did you know

994
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:34,719
Speaker 2: that like this that's.

995
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 3: The one thing you know I actually have?

996
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:36,800
Speaker 1: Yeah?

997
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:39,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So I drink I mean I don't drink

998
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:41,440
Speaker 2: mountains of but I would have you know, I have

999
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 2: some diet coke and I have some nutra sweet in

1000
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:47,400
Speaker 2: my coffee and sugar stuff.

1001
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:48,759
Speaker 3: Right because that's the stuff that I like, the no

1002
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:49,480
Speaker 3: sugar drinks.

1003
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 1: That sound yeah yeah yeah yeah.

1004
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 2: So like my protein powder has artificial sweetener in it. Yeah,

1005
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:57,279
Speaker 2: I'm like, ah fuck, Anyway, some research came out from

1006
00:46:57,280 --> 00:46:58,240
Speaker 2: Monash University.

1007
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 1: I could fuck this up a little bit, I don't

1008
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:00,680
Speaker 1: think I will.

1009
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:05,600
Speaker 2: That said, one glass of soda or whatever, you know,

1010
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:10,160
Speaker 2: fizzy whatever with artificial sweet and one glass per day

1011
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:14,800
Speaker 2: increases your chance of type two diabetes by thirty eight percent. Wow,

1012
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 2: versus the same amount of drink with sugar twenty three percent.

1013
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:23,760
Speaker 3: To it as a worse than sugar, is what you're saying.

1014
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:26,360
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, well it's this is what that. And I

1015
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:28,279
Speaker 2: went and it was on the news, and you know

1016
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:29,239
Speaker 2: how stuff's on the news.

1017
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:29,960
Speaker 1: I'm like, fuck the.

1018
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:32,480
Speaker 2: News, they've got this wrong. So I went and I went,

1019
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 2: I need to go look up this research. And I

1020
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:36,640
Speaker 2: looked it up and it's exactly that.

1021
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:37,680
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh fuck.

1022
00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:40,799
Speaker 2: And also my dad's are type two diabetics, so the

1023
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:45,440
Speaker 2: chances of me history Yeah, I'm like, yeah, fuck, you know,

1024
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:48,160
Speaker 2: so you just all right, So I just need to

1025
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 2: figure it out. So, you know, today this morning, I

1026
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:55,880
Speaker 2: have my coffee no sweetener. I had another one this afternoon,

1027
00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:58,799
Speaker 2: no sweetner. It tastes a little bit cackr. But I'll

1028
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:03,360
Speaker 2: get used to it, but I think adat yeah. Yeah,

1029
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:06,640
Speaker 2: So all right, so I just want to ask you.

1030
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 2: We'll get back on track and we'll wind up.

1031
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 1: What how much of.

1032
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:23,319
Speaker 2: Dealing with with kids and trauma is about dealing with

1033
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:26,880
Speaker 2: the parents first. Or is it or is it like

1034
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:30,800
Speaker 2: in conjunction or is does it totally separate am.

1035
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:32,640
Speaker 4: I would say that that would be the main thing,

1036
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:34,560
Speaker 4: to be honest, because if you think about therapy, it's

1037
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 4: meant to be a short term intervention, right, They're not

1038
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:38,759
Speaker 4: meant to be in therapy twenty four seven. So you know,

1039
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 4: the parent has the environment, like they hold the influence

1040
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:42,800
Speaker 4: over the environment.

1041
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 3: The child's in that environment. So being able to work

1042
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:45,880
Speaker 3: with the parent.

1043
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:48,000
Speaker 4: Not only helps during the therapy process, it's a child

1044
00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:50,760
Speaker 4: is in therapy, but after because we know that there

1045
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:54,279
Speaker 4: will be trauma reactions, right, trauma responsors post therapy, and

1046
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:56,640
Speaker 4: so a parent that actually understands it will be able

1047
00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 4: to accommodate for that versus a parent that hasn't been

1048
00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:01,600
Speaker 4: part of that process anyway. So I think it is

1049
00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:04,640
Speaker 4: really important, if anything, probably more important that the parents

1050
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 4: are actually attending therapy and understanding and learning about trauma

1051
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:10,160
Speaker 4: and learning about you know, talking about their child's behavior

1052
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:11,920
Speaker 4: and how that's linked to trauma and what they could

1053
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:15,359
Speaker 4: do to make adaptations or yeah, you know, for their

1054
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:18,200
Speaker 4: child to promote that healing and that growth outside the

1055
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:18,960
Speaker 4: therapy rooms.

1056
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:20,160
Speaker 3: I think that's really important.

1057
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:24,279
Speaker 2: Is it hard or it's probably not the right word,

1058
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:30,000
Speaker 2: But when you talk to other health professionals, people that

1059
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:33,719
Speaker 2: because you teach people about play therapy, right did I?

1060
00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:38,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you you train them up to do play therapy.

1061
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:43,000
Speaker 4: With I will teach I guess the play therapy tools

1062
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:44,040
Speaker 4: for people who aren't.

1063
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 3: Therapists or profess or therapists.

1064
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:48,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm really targeting those ones who don't get access

1065
00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:50,920
Speaker 4: to quality play therapy education because they're not a therapist.

1066
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:52,520
Speaker 4: So I'm trying to make it a bit more accessible

1067
00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:52,879
Speaker 4: for them.

1068
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:55,799
Speaker 2: And so the people who are in the same kind

1069
00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:59,600
Speaker 2: of fields therapy and mental health and all of that,

1070
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:03,400
Speaker 2: but the it not in your particular niche how do

1071
00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:10,240
Speaker 2: they respond to this treatment protocol versus more traditional routes,

1072
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 2: like you do you get much pushback? Do you get

1073
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:15,880
Speaker 2: lots of support? Do you get curiosity?

1074
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:16,680
Speaker 4: Like?

1075
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:19,560
Speaker 1: What is the vibe from the psychology tribe?

1076
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:21,920
Speaker 3: So interesting you say that because I do have a

1077
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:23,359
Speaker 3: lot of psychologists that.

1078
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:25,759
Speaker 4: Come through my training, and you know, a lot of

1079
00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 4: them say, but I know this stuff and I'm you know, struggling, right,

1080
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:32,160
Speaker 4: to make sense of that because we are the therapist,

1081
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 4: you know, so for them that traditional training is staying

1082
00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:36,160
Speaker 4: true to it. Then I have a bunch of others

1083
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:38,799
Speaker 4: that are like, I'm learning more about this stuff than

1084
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 4: I did in university because I'm actually challenging own assumptions

1085
00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:45,920
Speaker 4: and own bias, and I'm actually creating tools and delivering

1086
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:47,960
Speaker 4: tools that help the parents post therapy.

1087
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:49,840
Speaker 3: So I think you've got both.

1088
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:52,240
Speaker 4: And I've noticed the ones that are in therapy themselves

1089
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:54,480
Speaker 4: and doing their own and work actually really welcome this.

1090
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 4: I think it's the one that go, you know, no,

1091
00:50:58,040 --> 00:51:00,000
Speaker 4: like I'm the expert, here's her parents still need to

1092
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:01,560
Speaker 4: come to me, right, and I'll.

1093
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:02,960
Speaker 3: Do the therapy because then I want to do it properly.

1094
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:05,759
Speaker 4: The ones that are probably more stuck on the system.

1095
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:07,600
Speaker 3: But I think that that's very rare.

1096
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:10,319
Speaker 4: I think most of the time psychologists are welcoming it

1097
00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:12,239
Speaker 4: more because they can see they can see that the

1098
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:15,480
Speaker 4: system has its limitations. Research doesn't match up with the

1099
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 4: amount of funding that we get for mental health treatment,

1100
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:20,040
Speaker 4: so I think they are looking at more creative ways

1101
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:23,359
Speaker 4: to be able to deliver these tools to parents. So

1102
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:25,879
Speaker 4: god often therapists will still do my course, but they'll

1103
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 4: use it ask like a homework thing for their parents,

1104
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 4: you know, to.

1105
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:30,840
Speaker 3: Be able to give them the tools to extend this

1106
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 3: work at home.

1107
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:34,239
Speaker 4: So I think, yeah, being creative is probably the main thing,

1108
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:37,120
Speaker 4: and being able to realize that the system does as

1109
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:39,239
Speaker 4: limitations and so does the mental health model. But there

1110
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:41,560
Speaker 4: are ways that we can add to that and be

1111
00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:42,480
Speaker 4: creative around it.

1112
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:46,080
Speaker 2: And is there a particular age where you can kind

1113
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:50,480
Speaker 2: of open the conversational door with a child around how

1114
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:54,920
Speaker 2: they feel and like you can actually ask them deress

1115
00:51:55,200 --> 00:52:00,279
Speaker 2: direct specific questions or do you just kind of wait

1116
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:01,400
Speaker 2: and see what evolves.

1117
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:03,359
Speaker 3: I think you can, you can ask them.

1118
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:05,480
Speaker 4: I mean there's definitely approaches that you know do that,

1119
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:07,319
Speaker 4: and I mean with kids, you know, you could still

1120
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:10,160
Speaker 4: talk to them, but knowing that it's probably play that

1121
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:12,520
Speaker 4: they are most going to process things and be able

1122
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:14,680
Speaker 4: to actually you know, figure out how they feel and

1123
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:16,920
Speaker 4: would get insight into their own world versus what they

1124
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:19,560
Speaker 4: say to us, because remember, kids might be searching forward.

1125
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:21,560
Speaker 3: The right answer, the answer that they think we want

1126
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:21,799
Speaker 3: to hear.

1127
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:25,040
Speaker 4: How are you yeah, I'm good, you know, versus actually

1128
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:28,480
Speaker 4: playing out these things. And yeah, it's definitely just more

1129
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:31,759
Speaker 4: appropriate developmentally, but I don't think it stops us from

1130
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:33,840
Speaker 4: having or to abstaining from talking.

1131
00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:36,960
Speaker 3: We can definitely ask questions and appropriate.

1132
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:39,440
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1133
00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:43,720
Speaker 2: Always fascinating, Always fascinating. I love the way your brain works.

1134
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:45,880
Speaker 2: I love the work that you do. I love the

1135
00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:48,359
Speaker 2: energy that you bring and the info that you bring.

1136
00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:51,400
Speaker 2: Tell people how they can connect with you, Sam and

1137
00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:54,520
Speaker 2: follow you and maybe even do some.

1138
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:55,000
Speaker 1: Work with you.

1139
00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:58,040
Speaker 4: Yes, so you could follow me on Instagram which is

1140
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:02,239
Speaker 4: doctor Sam Casey, or on my website which is www

1141
00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:04,959
Speaker 4: dot doctor samcc dot com.

1142
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:06,239
Speaker 1: Perfect.

1143
00:53:06,239 --> 00:53:08,879
Speaker 2: Well, we'll say goodbye affair, but thanks, good to see

1144
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:09,400
Speaker 2: you again.

1145
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:12,320
Speaker 3: Thanks to you too, Craig. It was a great conversation.

1146
00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:14,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I appreciate it.