WEBVTT - Justifying the means: Part 2 0:00:01.200 --> 0:00:04.000 He said that they're hiring if you're interested in doing it, 0:00:04.760 --> 0:00:06.600 and I kind of laughed straight away. 0:00:06.640 --> 0:00:09.240 I thought, there's no way I could work in a prison. 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:11.600 It's one of those things. 0:00:11.680 --> 0:00:15.000 Once you put on that uniform, your whole persona and 0:00:15.240 --> 0:00:20.639 your attitude changes, right, and it becomes Yeah. My wife 0:00:20.680 --> 0:00:23.800 would often say, and I do talk about this and 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:26.439 reference it in the book as well. Once I put 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:28.760 that uniform on, it was very much a case of 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:29.680 don't fuck with me. 0:00:30.120 --> 0:00:33.440 I'm Andrew Rule. This is life and Crimes. Last week 0:00:34.440 --> 0:00:38.040 we spoke to serving prison officer, a man who calls 0:00:38.120 --> 0:00:41.000 himself Bruce McLeod, not his real name. He uses that 0:00:41.080 --> 0:00:45.080 name to write a book about his experiences. He told 0:00:45.159 --> 0:00:47.840 us about the death of a friend of his who's 0:00:47.880 --> 0:00:52.519 also a prison officer, a death that arose indirectly because 0:00:52.520 --> 0:00:56.600 of his work in prisons. And this week we're going 0:00:56.640 --> 0:01:00.760 to hear the second half of the long and grueling 0:01:00.880 --> 0:01:04.520 story that he told us. Hello to you again, Bruce, 0:01:05.000 --> 0:01:08.000 Thank you, Andrew. Now you're a man in your you 0:01:08.000 --> 0:01:09.840 know you're in middle age. 0:01:10.160 --> 0:01:12.120 I turned sixty next year, right. 0:01:12.680 --> 0:01:15.840 You took this on more than twenty years ago, so 0:01:16.040 --> 0:01:18.400 you'd been around for a farewell. Before you took up 0:01:18.440 --> 0:01:22.480 being a prison officer, what trajectory took you to working 0:01:22.480 --> 0:01:25.399 in prisons rather than, you know, some other public service 0:01:25.440 --> 0:01:26.200 job or whatever. 0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:30.440 I basically spent ten years in the computers industry, sales 0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:34.080 and purchasing and that for a computer company down in Geelong, 0:01:34.240 --> 0:01:37.320 did you I was also doing martial arts at the time, 0:01:38.319 --> 0:01:39.200 and I actually. 0:01:39.000 --> 0:01:40.679 Had which one which martial arts? 0:01:41.080 --> 0:01:45.520 So Mackay, which was a freestyle martial arts incorporated lots 0:01:45.600 --> 0:01:50.200 in different styles. So at the time, my instructor basically 0:01:50.360 --> 0:01:53.000 came and spoke to me one day and he worked 0:01:53.040 --> 0:01:56.200 at the prison, and he said, they're hiring if you're 0:01:56.200 --> 0:01:59.760 interested in doing it. And I kind of laughed straight away, 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:01.960 thought there's no way I could work. 0:02:01.880 --> 0:02:02.400 In a prison. 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:06.040 But the more I thought about it, the more I 0:02:06.120 --> 0:02:10.120 realized that he's not someone to say something like that. 0:02:10.520 --> 0:02:13.440 If he thought to him, what made you take it on? 0:02:13.520 --> 0:02:16.400 I mean, they're often going to need officers because it's 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:19.880 a tough job and there's a nutrition rate, you know. 0:02:19.919 --> 0:02:22.760 I have to say, in you know, many decades of 0:02:22.840 --> 0:02:24.560 doing what I do, I've met a lot of prison 0:02:24.600 --> 0:02:29.400 officers and I very rarely met happy ones. Or ones 0:02:29.440 --> 0:02:32.560 who don't find it a stress or austrain at some level. 0:02:33.080 --> 0:02:37.760 Often they're not happy about their employers. I have to say, 0:02:38.000 --> 0:02:40.440 there's been a lot of a lot of unhappiness, not 0:02:40.440 --> 0:02:41.760 not in your case, but in others. 0:02:41.960 --> 0:02:47.400 Yeah, yeah, that can happen, but it's it's one of 0:02:47.400 --> 0:02:50.160 those things. Once you put on that uniform, your whole 0:02:50.200 --> 0:02:56.040 persona and your attitude changes and it becomes Yeah. My 0:02:56.600 --> 0:02:59.480 wife would often say, and I do talk about this 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:02.400 and reference it in the book as well. Once I 0:03:02.400 --> 0:03:04.840 put that uniform on, it was very much a case 0:03:04.880 --> 0:03:05.600 of don't. 0:03:05.600 --> 0:03:07.320 With me right okay, and. 0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:12.720 Coming home it was always that's the first thing that's 0:03:12.760 --> 0:03:18.520 got to come off that uniform and yeah basically yeah, 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:21.240 and then sort of coming back to that home life. 0:03:21.560 --> 0:03:24.440 And it's very difficult and sometimes to be able to 0:03:24.440 --> 0:03:27.480 separate those two things because of the weight. 0:03:27.360 --> 0:03:28.280 That you carry. 0:03:28.800 --> 0:03:32.480 I remember prison offices years ago that were the Penridge. 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:37.400 They telling me that they did long shifts, twelve hour 0:03:37.440 --> 0:03:40.760 shifts and seven day shifts and sundays all this stuff 0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:44.000 because the sisters are available and they needed the money 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:46.080 to pay their mortgage. You know, they did it because 0:03:46.080 --> 0:03:49.520 it was there and they realized that it trapped them, 0:03:49.600 --> 0:03:52.839 they said, because they realized that, you know, you knock off, 0:03:52.960 --> 0:03:54.839 you go home, you eat something, you go to bed, 0:03:55.280 --> 0:03:57.960 you get up, you go back to jail. They said, 0:03:58.000 --> 0:04:02.160 they end up serving life sentences. It's basically every every 0:04:02.200 --> 0:04:07.680 almost every waking hour. Yeah, where they've traded their freedom 0:04:08.160 --> 0:04:11.360 for money. Yeah, and not a lot of money, but money. Yeah, 0:04:11.400 --> 0:04:15.120 and they realized they were doing the life sentences some 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:15.520 of them. 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:17.400 Yeah, it's it's funny. 0:04:17.440 --> 0:04:21.839 I've been Melbourne Assessment Prison where it's an assessment location. 0:04:22.120 --> 0:04:25.719 Anyone that's held in remand or sentence, that's the first 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:28.480 place that they will go to. So I've seen them 0:04:28.520 --> 0:04:31.440 from there. I've seen them from from bar and prison 0:04:31.480 --> 0:04:34.640 when they're actually being released. Yes, So I've seen the 0:04:34.680 --> 0:04:39.320 whole system, through the courts and everything. You've done a lot, yeah, yeah, 0:04:39.400 --> 0:04:45.160 and I've worked all different types of units, Mainstream Protection Management, AARU, 0:04:45.680 --> 0:04:49.160 the qute assessment a MAP as well. Yeah, where you're 0:04:49.160 --> 0:04:54.120 dealing with prisoners, you know, schizophrenic around and a lot 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:55.320 of mental health issues. 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:57.760 Do you feel that you're good at it because you 0:04:57.839 --> 0:05:01.520 have a mixture of humane attitude and sort of a 0:05:01.600 --> 0:05:04.360 gentle approach, but also you've done martial arts, so you're 0:05:04.560 --> 0:05:07.280 confident that you could handle situations or. 0:05:07.520 --> 0:05:11.320 Yeah, probably seventy percent of or probably even maybe a 0:05:11.320 --> 0:05:14.320 little bit higher, but seventy percent of what we really 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:17.920 do is about communication, being able to talk to people 0:05:18.600 --> 0:05:21.679 and that. And you again, you're talking to people from 0:05:21.800 --> 0:05:28.760 all different backgrounds, all different socioeconomic you know, lifestyles and that. 0:05:29.000 --> 0:05:34.159 But it's also important to understand and I guess you 0:05:34.200 --> 0:05:37.640 don't want to read everything that they've done in the past, 0:05:37.720 --> 0:05:41.240 because you know, starting to read every single crime and 0:05:41.279 --> 0:05:44.080 that will play with you your own head, no idea, 0:05:44.240 --> 0:05:47.360 but understanding that they're there for a reason. They're there 0:05:47.480 --> 0:05:50.880 because they've committed crimes. The court system, the justice system 0:05:51.240 --> 0:05:54.720 is basically holding them for an account and we're just 0:05:54.800 --> 0:05:57.479 sant to be there to provide some sort of duty 0:05:57.480 --> 0:06:01.719 of care. And that's not the same as caring for them, 0:06:02.440 --> 0:06:05.640 but basically managing them and just simply trying to provide 0:06:06.320 --> 0:06:10.120 a system where you know they're going to be comfortable inside. 0:06:10.800 --> 0:06:13.080 From that point of view, they've got access to a 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:15.760 number of different programs and things and all that. As 0:06:15.800 --> 0:06:17.920 far as the rehabilitation side of. 0:06:17.839 --> 0:06:20.520 It, have you seen that work on. 0:06:20.600 --> 0:06:24.960 A few occasions. On a few occasions, I've told prisoners 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:27.600 in the past, I'll see you again real soon. We'll 0:06:27.680 --> 0:06:28.800 keep a bed warm for you. 0:06:29.120 --> 0:06:31.839 Okay, so you can pick you can pick the sheep 0:06:31.839 --> 0:06:32.960 from pretty quickly. 0:06:33.200 --> 0:06:35.760 I had one who lasted fifteen minutes. 0:06:35.880 --> 0:06:37.479 No tell me about that. 0:06:37.560 --> 0:06:41.120 He got released from Melbourne Assessment Prison. So he was 0:06:41.160 --> 0:06:45.800 basically released onto a drug program, drug rehabilitation sort of 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:47.040 a drug house and that. 0:06:47.240 --> 0:06:51.040 For afterwards, and he read this paper. 0:06:51.160 --> 0:06:55.520 He basically got picked up by Corrections Community Service officers. 0:06:56.600 --> 0:07:00.440 Basically left Melbourne Assessment Prison, drove down the road, said 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:02.160 that he wanted to stop and get some money out 0:07:02.160 --> 0:07:05.440 of an ATM, so they pulled over. He jumped out, 0:07:05.520 --> 0:07:09.560 got the money out of the ATM and bolted ran 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:12.600 into the Melbourne CBD, ran around the corner and ran 0:07:12.640 --> 0:07:16.320 straight into the police. He then held him. So I think, yeah, 0:07:16.320 --> 0:07:18.239 it was about fifteen minutes that he lasted. 0:07:18.880 --> 0:07:19.800 That was very funny. 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:22.960 Yeah, it was on a believe it was on a Friday. 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:24.880 By Monday he was back at. 0:07:25.440 --> 0:07:28.040 He must have had that look when the police arrest me, 0:07:28.200 --> 0:07:30.040 I'm a crook or something. 0:07:30.080 --> 0:07:30.600 Pretty much. 0:07:30.680 --> 0:07:34.600 Yeah, he was obviously massive history as far as drugs. 0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:37.560 So he was very much a drug seeker as far 0:07:37.600 --> 0:07:40.240 as the in the system, and that was obviously his 0:07:40.400 --> 0:07:42.080 downfall as far as when he got out. 0:07:42.240 --> 0:07:45.000 And do you feel that if you had to make 0:07:45.080 --> 0:07:52.160 a generalization about prisoners, that drugs are a common denominator 0:07:52.200 --> 0:07:54.600 with most or many of them. Yeah. 0:07:54.800 --> 0:07:59.240 Yeah, drug and alcohol programs so generally the probably the 0:07:59.280 --> 0:08:02.240 most access programs within a prison system. 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:06.360 And you think both those you know, those were drugs, 0:08:06.800 --> 0:08:09.960 as alcohol is a drug, that they're the most they're 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:14.560 the biggest drivers of criminal behavior and offense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:08:15.040 --> 0:08:19.440 Again, I talk about it in the book that the 0:08:19.480 --> 0:08:22.120 only time that you ever see them them upset and 0:08:22.520 --> 0:08:25.760 and you know, coming across prisoners that are basically sitting 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:28.760 in the cell crying, and that is because they don't 0:08:28.800 --> 0:08:32.160 feel sorry for their victims. They're sorry because they got caught. 0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:37.120 They're sorry because they're actually locked up and missing their own. 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:38.359 Families, sorry for themselves. 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:41.280 Yeah yeah, And at that stage it's. 0:08:41.200 --> 0:08:43.280 It doesn't run into a lot of remorse inside. 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:46.160 No, No, well, they they'll all tell you the same 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:47.320 story that they're innocent. 0:08:47.720 --> 0:08:48.520 Someone else set them. 0:08:48.520 --> 0:08:51.000 Up, someone else set them up. You mentioned a word 0:08:51.040 --> 0:08:54.319 which I often think of when I deal with crooks 0:08:54.400 --> 0:08:58.120 or write about crooks, and that is narcissism. That if 0:08:58.160 --> 0:09:04.240 there's a word that unifies most crooks, not everyone, it's narcissism, 0:09:04.320 --> 0:09:07.480 but the center of their own universe and they don't 0:09:07.520 --> 0:09:12.480 care about anybody else, like a spoilt kid. Spoil kid. 0:09:12.559 --> 0:09:15.640 Yeah, there's one particular one that I did reference in 0:09:15.679 --> 0:09:20.479 the book that he saw drug trafficing as a profession, 0:09:21.720 --> 0:09:24.800 like you and I going out to work or something 0:09:24.920 --> 0:09:28.880 like that. He saw the actual drug trafficking as a 0:09:28.880 --> 0:09:32.480 profession as a way of providing for his family. He 0:09:32.520 --> 0:09:37.120 didn't see it as anything other than that. So it 0:09:37.240 --> 0:09:40.720 was very much a case of talking to him about 0:09:40.720 --> 0:09:44.760 some of this. He would then describe things like, you know, 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:48.160 stealing money from from his own kids birthday cards or 0:09:48.240 --> 0:09:52.400 Christmas card as a way of funding habits and things 0:09:52.480 --> 0:09:58.240 like that. So I deliberately, throughout the book changed a 0:09:58.280 --> 0:10:02.000 lot of references and that to prisoners or places or 0:10:02.080 --> 0:10:06.040 dates or anything like that to avoid that because prisoners 0:10:06.080 --> 0:10:08.800 have the perception that once you start talking about something, 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:13.239 they believe everything's about them. You're talking or making references 0:10:13.280 --> 0:10:16.920 about them, So it's trying to basically avoid that. 0:10:17.000 --> 0:10:17.640 It's interesting. 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:19.559 But there's a lot. 0:10:19.400 --> 0:10:22.040 In the in the book as far as the prison 0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:25.760 life and separating home life, how I met Brian and 0:10:25.800 --> 0:10:29.480 the way I described it, you know, the screw dog maggot, 0:10:29.720 --> 0:10:32.800 It's exactly how it happened, and that's in the book. 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:36.720 To the point where I was assaulted at MAP, that's 0:10:36.720 --> 0:10:38.839 in the book. There's a lot of things like that 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:42.480 that I experienced that's in there as well. 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:45.800 If you'd been unlucky, because we're going all have good luck, 0:10:45.840 --> 0:10:49.280 bad luck, or something in between, you could have been 0:10:49.320 --> 0:10:52.120 assaulted in a way that when did you unfit to work, 0:10:52.480 --> 0:10:55.240 you could have got a payout that you had to 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:57.800 invest some with. But this is this is the sort 0:10:57.800 --> 0:11:02.320 of thing that can happen. Absolutely when you you get 0:11:02.320 --> 0:11:05.800 paid out, you can't really function the way you used to. 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:08.800 You need to use the money you've got, even though 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:12.120 it seems like a lot, you actually need to invest 0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:14.120 it in some way that it keeps bringing in an 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:17.360 income for decades possibly, you know, if you're going to 0:11:17.320 --> 0:11:20.360 stay alive. It puts a big pressure on people and 0:11:20.400 --> 0:11:23.480 a big strain they're going to some of them are 0:11:23.480 --> 0:11:26.520 going to, you know, throw the bullet the stumps and 0:11:26.720 --> 0:11:30.920 go for something that pays in geelong terms. They're going 0:11:30.960 --> 0:11:33.520 to invest it with Pyramid, not the Conrolt Bank. They're 0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:35.760 going to go for something that pays better and that's 0:11:35.840 --> 0:11:38.319 risky and that can go wrong. Is that right? 0:11:38.559 --> 0:11:39.160 Absolutely? 0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:42.480 For twenty plus years, I've known a lot of officers 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:47.439 that have been injured and never worked again. Yes, and 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:53.600 it's absolutely devastating. Culturally, it's not that common that there's 0:11:54.480 --> 0:11:58.280 officers that get assaulted. That part, I guess around the 0:11:58.320 --> 0:12:02.120 state can be can be quite common, and there's certainly 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:05.760 head office with corrections are trying to look at strategies 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:09.319 in the ways of being able to reduce those assaults 0:12:10.040 --> 0:12:13.560 as far as staff being permanently injured, whether they're not 0:12:14.000 --> 0:12:17.080 working again, or they may have to look at, you know, 0:12:17.440 --> 0:12:21.160 other types of employment away from corrections that can happen. 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:24.960 It's not that common, but it is something that does 0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:27.920 happen and does occur, and some of those people that 0:12:28.000 --> 0:12:33.880 have been affected by their assaults, it's absolutely horrific. They've 0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:38.280 got lifelong injuries and mental health to deal with. 0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:41.800 Mental health. Now that's the other thing about your job 0:12:42.080 --> 0:12:46.200 and police and soldiers, we notice this the mental scars 0:12:47.320 --> 0:12:51.400 run deep with many people and hugely common. I mean 0:12:51.440 --> 0:12:58.160 there's so many defense personnel suicide and police forces maybe 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:03.360 not as deep affected as a defence forces, but it's 0:13:03.360 --> 0:13:09.440 certainly it's certainly affected. And you're your business is the same. Yeah, 0:13:09.520 --> 0:13:12.000 because you and why is that? Tell me what you 0:13:12.040 --> 0:13:16.200 think you're dealing with? You're always got to be on guards. 0:13:16.200 --> 0:13:17.920 So vigilance, Yeah, that gets. 0:13:17.679 --> 0:13:19.280 To you, it does. 0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:24.280 I've been diagnosed with PTSD myself, right, and that's through 0:13:25.200 --> 0:13:28.600 a couple of assaults that I've experienced. But working in 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:32.680 the in the job as well, we we do become 0:13:32.960 --> 0:13:37.080 very hyper vigilant. We see threats everywhere, and that's not 0:13:37.240 --> 0:13:39.680 just inside the prison. You could be walking down the street. 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:44.160 You're constantly looking around for threats from anywhere. And if 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:47.040 you're with your family and then suddenly the way you 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:49.800 react and grab someone or you know, and they look 0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:52.280 at you kind of strange. But once you're a prison officer, 0:13:52.400 --> 0:13:56.640 that feels almost reactionary to you as a way of 0:13:56.800 --> 0:14:00.000 safeguarding the ones that you care about. You don't care 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:02.920 care about your own safety, it's others that you're basically 0:14:02.960 --> 0:14:09.440 looking to protect. And I think also yeah, I think. Also, yeah, 0:14:09.559 --> 0:14:12.200 I think also coming back to something I mentioned earlier, 0:14:12.240 --> 0:14:17.200 the fact that because you can't talk to family or 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:20.520 other people around the job and what it is that 0:14:20.600 --> 0:14:25.640 you do see experience, you tend to feel isolated. Unless 0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:28.240 you were actually talking to other officers that understand the 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:32.000 role that you do, you tend to feel isolated. You 0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:36.040 tend to feel how can I tell someone you know 0:14:36.120 --> 0:14:39.440 what I did today, you know about this incident, and 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:43.000 that you try and avoid those things. You walk through 0:14:43.000 --> 0:14:45.040 the door, How is your day to day? 0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:45.880 You're good? 0:14:46.120 --> 0:14:47.120 What can you really say? 0:14:47.280 --> 0:14:48.960 Yeah, it's difficult. 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:52.360 And then from that point of view, I think a 0:14:52.400 --> 0:14:56.960 lot of officers really feel that the strain you tend 0:14:57.000 --> 0:14:58.640 to hang around with. 0:14:58.800 --> 0:15:03.520 Obviously other to understand who understand? I presume there's really 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:07.520 any good news you know that they can't occasionally, but 0:15:07.600 --> 0:15:08.000 not much. 0:15:08.160 --> 0:15:08.400 No. 0:15:08.640 --> 0:15:08.880 No. 0:15:09.160 --> 0:15:12.400 I have delivered good news in the past to prisoners 0:15:13.440 --> 0:15:19.160 working in the in the control room, prisoner's partner, wife, girlfriend, whoever, 0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:24.160 has a baby, and once we inform the security supervisor 0:15:24.240 --> 0:15:28.280 on shift at night, they might say, yeah, look, give 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:31.000 them the message, give them the good news, and you 0:15:31.520 --> 0:15:35.000 tell them down no, no, no, just through an intercomps 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:37.440 calling him up in the cell. 0:15:40.400 --> 0:15:43.160 And the reaction to that. Can you remember doing that with. 0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:46.320 Yeah, yeah, a few times. They're absolutely thrilled. They can't 0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:48.960 believe it, and you try and give them a few 0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:53.040 details about the baby being born, wait, sex, that sort 0:15:53.120 --> 0:15:56.800 of thing, and they're so thankful, thank you boss. So 0:15:56.880 --> 0:16:00.000 you're thank you. That's that's great news. Thank you very much, 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:01.840 and really appreciate it. 0:16:01.960 --> 0:16:04.360 And do they remember that, you know, a week later. 0:16:04.680 --> 0:16:08.160 No, no, and they probably don't remember. Yeah, probably don't 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:11.440 remember who actually told them that. But yeah, look, there 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:14.800 are a few occasions where you do have some some moments, 0:16:15.160 --> 0:16:19.040 those small moments where it is just nice to work there. 0:16:19.080 --> 0:16:21.920 Have you ever met a prisoner that you genuinely liked 0:16:21.960 --> 0:16:22.640 as a person. 0:16:23.200 --> 0:16:24.080 Yeah, I've met a few. 0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:25.200 One. 0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:28.920 He was actually and this has gone back, that's twenty 0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:35.320 twenty three years ago. He actually helped out the maintenance 0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:39.040 workers quite a bit, as like a plumber's mate. He 0:16:39.040 --> 0:16:43.200 would actually help them and that yeah, yeah, very good 0:16:43.200 --> 0:16:45.720 with the tools. Obviously you had to watch him like 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:49.120 a hawk around those tools. But he was someone that 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:51.080 you could generally say, he'll make a go of it 0:16:51.160 --> 0:16:52.000 when he's released. 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:53.480 What sort of thing was he in for. 0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:56.800 I couldn't tell you. I really just didn't want to know. 0:16:57.120 --> 0:16:59.280 Okay, yeah, there were a few. Have you been a 0:16:59.400 --> 0:17:00.160 trade do you think? 0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:03.920 Yeah, he sort of had that background and I think 0:17:03.920 --> 0:17:06.000 he wanted to sort of do a bit more with it. 0:17:06.440 --> 0:17:09.560 But there's other prisoners that I did need to know 0:17:10.040 --> 0:17:13.640 what their background was, because you know, I've dealt with 0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:19.720 murderers and killers and serial killers and gangland and you know, 0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:24.359 convicted terrorist suspects and that as well, So a whole range, 0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:28.399 a whole gambit of I'm going to persons. 0:17:27.840 --> 0:17:30.280 A rude question that you shouldn't be asked, but I'll 0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:32.800 do it because of the listeners will want to know. Yeah, 0:17:32.880 --> 0:17:35.480 you know, we last twenty five years, we've heard a 0:17:35.520 --> 0:17:38.400 lot of Ganglan wars and GANGLN figures have become well 0:17:38.440 --> 0:17:41.399 known and so on, and many of them did end 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:44.879 up in Barwin Port. Philip, did you have you had 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:47.240 much to do with some of those characters that were. 0:17:47.320 --> 0:17:48.400 A little bit along the way. 0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:51.920 Yeah, yeah, we all knew and yeah loved all love. 0:17:52.160 --> 0:17:55.880 Yeah, there was one who was released not that long ago. 0:17:56.280 --> 0:17:58.080 Oh right, yeah, the s CSG. 0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:00.920 And it was funny I told this is a bit 0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:04.720 of a fun fact to family that I was the 0:18:04.800 --> 0:18:09.000 last one to see Lee Barwin and wave goodbye to him. 0:18:09.280 --> 0:18:12.720 There was news choppers flying above the prison and they 0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:15.840 basically took him out on the way to court where 0:18:15.920 --> 0:18:19.520 he was then released. But I was, yeah, I was 0:18:19.560 --> 0:18:21.200 in the sally Port at the time. 0:18:21.520 --> 0:18:26.760 And strikes me we're talking about him, about Tony Mockbell. 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:29.679 Strikes me as a fellow that most people who know 0:18:29.760 --> 0:18:33.000 him find him to be. You know, he's a businessman. 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:36.879 He's a crooked businessman. He's a guy that likes to 0:18:36.920 --> 0:18:40.879 sell drugs to make money rather than you know, like 0:18:41.480 --> 0:18:45.320 what's the running around murdering people for kicks. His idea 0:18:45.440 --> 0:18:49.919 was to be as you said, you run into them. 0:18:49.960 --> 0:18:52.760 They think it's just a way to make business, make 0:18:52.880 --> 0:18:58.600 money to their families. And that was him him, and he's. 0:18:58.160 --> 0:19:02.000 Look, there's been quite a few over the years, some 0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:10.560 certainly some well known characters and that, and yeah. 0:19:09.640 --> 0:19:10.680 It's hard some of them. 0:19:11.000 --> 0:19:15.560 And you know, having dealt with some of them, you've 0:19:15.600 --> 0:19:17.959 got to be very very careful on your toes all 0:19:18.000 --> 0:19:23.000 the time and that so you get to know them, 0:19:23.440 --> 0:19:26.080 they get to know you. People would often say, well 0:19:26.320 --> 0:19:29.080 you know. How much do you actually tell them about yourself? 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:32.359 I would often say, you know, look I live in 0:19:32.440 --> 0:19:36.520 Geelong and that's it. I don't have to specify exactly where, 0:19:37.119 --> 0:19:38.840 you know, but if they knew that I barracked for 0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:42.240 football club, who cares? 0:19:42.280 --> 0:19:43.840 What are they going to do with that information? 0:19:44.680 --> 0:19:46.640 But I would often come in and say to them 0:19:46.760 --> 0:19:51.359 after a weekend if Essendon lost, I said, anyone mentioned it, 0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:51.720 I'm going. 0:19:51.680 --> 0:19:52.520 To lock you up early. 0:19:53.400 --> 0:19:56.120 As a way of just having a joke with them. 0:19:56.520 --> 0:19:59.560 These days, twenty years ago you could do that. These 0:19:59.640 --> 0:20:03.159 days probably not so much. You generally find now with 0:20:03.840 --> 0:20:06.760 new staff it's a lot harder for them to build 0:20:06.840 --> 0:20:09.160 up the rapport that you have with prisoners. 0:20:10.080 --> 0:20:14.199 Do you find that the different ethnic groups, different language groups, 0:20:14.240 --> 0:20:16.840 et cetera, et cetera. We now have a country, at 0:20:16.880 --> 0:20:20.400 least in the big cities where half the people walking 0:20:20.440 --> 0:20:24.080 around their parents were born elsewhere, and that they are 0:20:24.440 --> 0:20:26.600 for a lot of people, English is a second language. 0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:31.080 Is that fact reflected in the jail population now? That 0:20:31.560 --> 0:20:33.720 the Essendon joke that was a good joke twenty years 0:20:33.720 --> 0:20:36.280 ago is not quite as good these days when you're 0:20:36.280 --> 0:20:39.560 dealing with Peo blues, idea of sports might be soccer 0:20:40.600 --> 0:20:41.639 or kickboxing. 0:20:41.760 --> 0:20:46.000 Yeah, well again that probably also depends on which unit 0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:49.200 you actually walk into. Of course, there are some units 0:20:49.200 --> 0:20:52.240 where you do actually have a lot of the older heads, 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:56.160 the older prisoners, so that joke would probably work with. 0:20:56.080 --> 0:20:59.080 Them, not so much with another unit. 0:20:59.160 --> 0:21:00.600 The young Middle East and not on. 0:21:01.160 --> 0:21:03.520 Yeah, you've got a lot of young offenders coming through 0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:07.200 the system these days, and that's very hard then making 0:21:07.400 --> 0:21:09.760 any type of connection with them. 0:21:10.320 --> 0:21:15.080 You know, the the middle aged Anglo like you and 0:21:15.200 --> 0:21:18.000 me hasn't got a lot in common with a twenty 0:21:18.000 --> 0:21:22.359 three year old Middle Eastern kid or island killer or whatever. 0:21:23.400 --> 0:21:26.000 It's all different background background. 0:21:26.080 --> 0:21:28.280 Yeah, you haven't really got a common experience. 0:21:28.359 --> 0:21:31.560 But no, I always liked if I was running the unit, 0:21:31.640 --> 0:21:36.000 always liked having some of the Asian prisoners as billets 0:21:36.160 --> 0:21:39.160 and they would like trusted workers within the actual unit 0:21:39.640 --> 0:21:44.320 to do cleaning and other jobs, and that staying because 0:21:44.359 --> 0:21:48.720 they would cook the most amazing meals and the whole 0:21:48.800 --> 0:21:50.760 unit would smell absolutely amazing. 0:21:50.920 --> 0:21:52.600 Really, Yeah, they were great. 0:21:53.040 --> 0:21:57.359 Other units you had older prisoners that may have that 0:21:57.400 --> 0:21:59.840 sort of gang laan background, right, They used to cook 0:21:59.840 --> 0:22:03.840 all of pasta and pizza, knights and it would smell 0:22:03.920 --> 0:22:04.800 absolutely amazing. 0:22:05.680 --> 0:22:06.200 Yeah. 0:22:06.240 --> 0:22:10.080 But I again, I've worked with officers from all different backgrounds, 0:22:10.080 --> 0:22:12.600 from a lot of those different countries as well, and 0:22:12.640 --> 0:22:15.840