Speaker 1: He said that they're hiring if you're interested in doing it,
Speaker 1: and I kind of laughed straight away.
Speaker 2: I thought, there's no way I could work in a prison.
Speaker 2: It's one of those things.
Speaker 1: Once you put on that uniform, your whole persona and
Speaker 1: your attitude changes, right, and it becomes Yeah. My wife
Speaker 1: would often say, and I do talk about this and
Speaker 1: reference it in the book as well. Once I put
Speaker 1: that uniform on, it was very much a case of
Speaker 1: don't fuck with me.
Speaker 3: I'm Andrew Rule. This is life and Crimes. Last week
Speaker 3: we spoke to serving prison officer, a man who calls
Speaker 3: himself Bruce McLeod, not his real name. He uses that
Speaker 3: name to write a book about his experiences. He told
Speaker 3: us about the death of a friend of his who's
Speaker 3: also a prison officer, a death that arose indirectly because
Speaker 3: of his work in prisons. And this week we're going
Speaker 3: to hear the second half of the long and grueling
Speaker 3: story that he told us. Hello to you again, Bruce,
Speaker 3: Thank you, Andrew. Now you're a man in your you
Speaker 3: know you're in middle age.
Speaker 2: I turned sixty next year, right.
Speaker 3: You took this on more than twenty years ago, so
Speaker 3: you'd been around for a farewell. Before you took up
Speaker 3: being a prison officer, what trajectory took you to working
Speaker 3: in prisons rather than, you know, some other public service
Speaker 3: job or whatever.
Speaker 1: I basically spent ten years in the computers industry, sales
Speaker 1: and purchasing and that for a computer company down in Geelong,
Speaker 1: did you I was also doing martial arts at the time,
Speaker 1: and I actually.
Speaker 3: Had which one which martial arts?
Speaker 1: So Mackay, which was a freestyle martial arts incorporated lots
Speaker 1: in different styles. So at the time, my instructor basically
Speaker 1: came and spoke to me one day and he worked
Speaker 1: at the prison, and he said, they're hiring if you're
Speaker 1: interested in doing it. And I kind of laughed straight away,
Speaker 1: thought there's no way I could work.
Speaker 2: In a prison.
Speaker 1: But the more I thought about it, the more I
Speaker 1: realized that he's not someone to say something like that.
Speaker 3: If he thought to him, what made you take it on?
Speaker 3: I mean, they're often going to need officers because it's
Speaker 3: a tough job and there's a nutrition rate, you know.
Speaker 3: I have to say, in you know, many decades of
Speaker 3: doing what I do, I've met a lot of prison
Speaker 3: officers and I very rarely met happy ones. Or ones
Speaker 3: who don't find it a stress or austrain at some level.
Speaker 3: Often they're not happy about their employers. I have to say,
Speaker 3: there's been a lot of a lot of unhappiness, not
Speaker 3: not in your case, but in others.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that can happen, but it's it's one of
Speaker 1: those things. Once you put on that uniform, your whole
Speaker 1: persona and your attitude changes and it becomes Yeah. My
Speaker 1: wife would often say, and I do talk about this
Speaker 1: and reference it in the book as well. Once I
Speaker 1: put that uniform on, it was very much a case
Speaker 1: of don't.
Speaker 3: With me right okay, and.
Speaker 1: Coming home it was always that's the first thing that's
Speaker 1: got to come off that uniform and yeah basically yeah,
Speaker 1: and then sort of coming back to that home life.
Speaker 1: And it's very difficult and sometimes to be able to
Speaker 1: separate those two things because of the weight.
Speaker 2: That you carry.
Speaker 3: I remember prison offices years ago that were the Penridge.
Speaker 3: They telling me that they did long shifts, twelve hour
Speaker 3: shifts and seven day shifts and sundays all this stuff
Speaker 3: because the sisters are available and they needed the money
Speaker 3: to pay their mortgage. You know, they did it because
Speaker 3: it was there and they realized that it trapped them,
Speaker 3: they said, because they realized that, you know, you knock off,
Speaker 3: you go home, you eat something, you go to bed,
Speaker 3: you get up, you go back to jail. They said,
Speaker 3: they end up serving life sentences. It's basically every every
Speaker 3: almost every waking hour. Yeah, where they've traded their freedom
Speaker 3: for money. Yeah, and not a lot of money, but money. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and they realized they were doing the life sentences some
Speaker 3: of them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's funny.
Speaker 1: I've been Melbourne Assessment Prison where it's an assessment location.
Speaker 1: Anyone that's held in remand or sentence, that's the first
Speaker 1: place that they will go to. So I've seen them
Speaker 1: from there. I've seen them from from bar and prison
Speaker 1: when they're actually being released. Yes, So I've seen the
Speaker 1: whole system, through the courts and everything. You've done a lot, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and I've worked all different types of units, Mainstream Protection Management, AARU,
Speaker 1: the qute assessment a MAP as well. Yeah, where you're
Speaker 1: dealing with prisoners, you know, schizophrenic around and a lot
Speaker 1: of mental health issues.
Speaker 3: Do you feel that you're good at it because you
Speaker 3: have a mixture of humane attitude and sort of a
Speaker 3: gentle approach, but also you've done martial arts, so you're
Speaker 3: confident that you could handle situations or.
Speaker 1: Yeah, probably seventy percent of or probably even maybe a
Speaker 1: little bit higher, but seventy percent of what we really
Speaker 1: do is about communication, being able to talk to people
Speaker 1: and that. And you again, you're talking to people from
Speaker 1: all different backgrounds, all different socioeconomic you know, lifestyles and that.
Speaker 1: But it's also important to understand and I guess you
Speaker 1: don't want to read everything that they've done in the past,
Speaker 1: because you know, starting to read every single crime and
Speaker 1: that will play with you your own head, no idea,
Speaker 1: but understanding that they're there for a reason. They're there
Speaker 1: because they've committed crimes. The court system, the justice system
Speaker 1: is basically holding them for an account and we're just
Speaker 1: sant to be there to provide some sort of duty
Speaker 1: of care. And that's not the same as caring for them,
Speaker 1: but basically managing them and just simply trying to provide
Speaker 1: a system where you know they're going to be comfortable inside.
Speaker 1: From that point of view, they've got access to a
Speaker 1: number of different programs and things and all that. As
Speaker 1: far as the rehabilitation side of.
Speaker 3: It, have you seen that work on.
Speaker 1: A few occasions. On a few occasions, I've told prisoners
Speaker 1: in the past, I'll see you again real soon. We'll
Speaker 1: keep a bed warm for you.
Speaker 3: Okay, so you can pick you can pick the sheep
Speaker 3: from pretty quickly.
Speaker 2: I had one who lasted fifteen minutes.
Speaker 3: No tell me about that.
Speaker 1: He got released from Melbourne Assessment Prison. So he was
Speaker 1: basically released onto a drug program, drug rehabilitation sort of
Speaker 1: a drug house and that.
Speaker 3: For afterwards, and he read this paper.
Speaker 1: He basically got picked up by Corrections Community Service officers.
Speaker 1: Basically left Melbourne Assessment Prison, drove down the road, said
Speaker 1: that he wanted to stop and get some money out
Speaker 1: of an ATM, so they pulled over. He jumped out,
Speaker 1: got the money out of the ATM and bolted ran
Speaker 1: into the Melbourne CBD, ran around the corner and ran
Speaker 1: straight into the police. He then held him. So I think, yeah,
Speaker 1: it was about fifteen minutes that he lasted.
Speaker 3: That was very funny.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was on a believe it was on a Friday.
Speaker 1: By Monday he was back at.
Speaker 3: He must have had that look when the police arrest me,
Speaker 3: I'm a crook or something.
Speaker 2: Pretty much.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was obviously massive history as far as drugs.
Speaker 1: So he was very much a drug seeker as far
Speaker 1: as the in the system, and that was obviously his
Speaker 1: downfall as far as when he got out.
Speaker 3: And do you feel that if you had to make
Speaker 3: a generalization about prisoners, that drugs are a common denominator
Speaker 3: with most or many of them. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, drug and alcohol programs so generally the probably the
Speaker 1: most access programs within a prison system.
Speaker 3: And you think both those you know, those were drugs,
Speaker 3: as alcohol is a drug, that they're the most they're
Speaker 3: the biggest drivers of criminal behavior and offense. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: Again, I talk about it in the book that the
Speaker 1: only time that you ever see them them upset and
Speaker 1: and you know, coming across prisoners that are basically sitting
Speaker 1: in the cell crying, and that is because they don't
Speaker 1: feel sorry for their victims. They're sorry because they got caught.
Speaker 1: They're sorry because they're actually locked up and missing their own.
Speaker 3: Families, sorry for themselves.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, And at that stage it's.
Speaker 3: It doesn't run into a lot of remorse inside.
Speaker 1: No, No, well, they they'll all tell you the same
Speaker 1: story that they're innocent.
Speaker 2: Someone else set them.
Speaker 3: Up, someone else set them up. You mentioned a word
Speaker 3: which I often think of when I deal with crooks
Speaker 3: or write about crooks, and that is narcissism. That if
Speaker 3: there's a word that unifies most crooks, not everyone, it's narcissism,
Speaker 3: but the center of their own universe and they don't
Speaker 3: care about anybody else, like a spoilt kid. Spoil kid.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's one particular one that I did reference in
Speaker 1: the book that he saw drug trafficing as a profession,
Speaker 1: like you and I going out to work or something
Speaker 1: like that. He saw the actual drug trafficking as a
Speaker 1: profession as a way of providing for his family. He
Speaker 1: didn't see it as anything other than that. So it
Speaker 1: was very much a case of talking to him about
Speaker 1: some of this. He would then describe things like, you know,
Speaker 1: stealing money from from his own kids birthday cards or
Speaker 1: Christmas card as a way of funding habits and things
Speaker 1: like that. So I deliberately, throughout the book changed a
Speaker 1: lot of references and that to prisoners or places or
Speaker 1: dates or anything like that to avoid that because prisoners
Speaker 1: have the perception that once you start talking about something,
Speaker 1: they believe everything's about them. You're talking or making references
Speaker 1: about them, So it's trying to basically avoid that.
Speaker 3: It's interesting.
Speaker 2: But there's a lot.
Speaker 1: In the in the book as far as the prison
Speaker 1: life and separating home life, how I met Brian and
Speaker 1: the way I described it, you know, the screw dog maggot,
Speaker 1: It's exactly how it happened, and that's in the book.
Speaker 1: To the point where I was assaulted at MAP, that's
Speaker 1: in the book. There's a lot of things like that
Speaker 1: that I experienced that's in there as well.
Speaker 3: If you'd been unlucky, because we're going all have good luck,
Speaker 3: bad luck, or something in between, you could have been
Speaker 3: assaulted in a way that when did you unfit to work,
Speaker 3: you could have got a payout that you had to
Speaker 3: invest some with. But this is this is the sort
Speaker 3: of thing that can happen. Absolutely when you you get
Speaker 3: paid out, you can't really function the way you used to.
Speaker 3: You need to use the money you've got, even though
Speaker 3: it seems like a lot, you actually need to invest
Speaker 3: it in some way that it keeps bringing in an
Speaker 3: income for decades possibly, you know, if you're going to
Speaker 3: stay alive. It puts a big pressure on people and
Speaker 3: a big strain they're going to some of them are
Speaker 3: going to, you know, throw the bullet the stumps and
Speaker 3: go for something that pays in geelong terms. They're going
Speaker 3: to invest it with Pyramid, not the Conrolt Bank. They're
Speaker 3: going to go for something that pays better and that's
Speaker 3: risky and that can go wrong. Is that right?
Speaker 2: Absolutely?
Speaker 1: For twenty plus years, I've known a lot of officers
Speaker 1: that have been injured and never worked again. Yes, and
Speaker 1: it's absolutely devastating. Culturally, it's not that common that there's
Speaker 1: officers that get assaulted. That part, I guess around the
Speaker 1: state can be can be quite common, and there's certainly
Speaker 1: head office with corrections are trying to look at strategies
Speaker 1: in the ways of being able to reduce those assaults
Speaker 1: as far as staff being permanently injured, whether they're not
Speaker 1: working again, or they may have to look at, you know,
Speaker 1: other types of employment away from corrections that can happen.
Speaker 1: It's not that common, but it is something that does
Speaker 1: happen and does occur, and some of those people that
Speaker 1: have been affected by their assaults, it's absolutely horrific. They've
Speaker 1: got lifelong injuries and mental health to deal with.
Speaker 3: Mental health. Now that's the other thing about your job
Speaker 3: and police and soldiers, we notice this the mental scars
Speaker 3: run deep with many people and hugely common. I mean
Speaker 3: there's so many defense personnel suicide and police forces maybe
Speaker 3: not as deep affected as a defence forces, but it's
Speaker 3: certainly it's certainly affected. And you're your business is the same. Yeah,
Speaker 3: because you and why is that? Tell me what you
Speaker 3: think you're dealing with? You're always got to be on guards.
Speaker 3: So vigilance, Yeah, that gets.
Speaker 2: To you, it does.
Speaker 1: I've been diagnosed with PTSD myself, right, and that's through
Speaker 1: a couple of assaults that I've experienced. But working in
Speaker 1: the in the job as well, we we do become
Speaker 1: very hyper vigilant. We see threats everywhere, and that's not
Speaker 1: just inside the prison. You could be walking down the street.
Speaker 1: You're constantly looking around for threats from anywhere. And if
Speaker 1: you're with your family and then suddenly the way you
Speaker 1: react and grab someone or you know, and they look
Speaker 1: at you kind of strange. But once you're a prison officer,
Speaker 1: that feels almost reactionary to you as a way of
Speaker 1: safeguarding the ones that you care about. You don't care
Speaker 1: care about your own safety, it's others that you're basically
Speaker 1: looking to protect. And I think also yeah, I think. Also, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think also coming back to something I mentioned earlier,
Speaker 1: the fact that because you can't talk to family or
Speaker 1: other people around the job and what it is that
Speaker 1: you do see experience, you tend to feel isolated. Unless
Speaker 1: you were actually talking to other officers that understand the
Speaker 1: role that you do, you tend to feel isolated. You
Speaker 1: tend to feel how can I tell someone you know
Speaker 1: what I did today, you know about this incident, and
Speaker 1: that you try and avoid those things. You walk through
Speaker 1: the door, How is your day to day?
Speaker 2: You're good?
Speaker 3: What can you really say?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's difficult.
Speaker 1: And then from that point of view, I think a
Speaker 1: lot of officers really feel that the strain you tend
Speaker 1: to hang around with.
Speaker 3: Obviously other to understand who understand? I presume there's really
Speaker 3: any good news you know that they can't occasionally, but
Speaker 3: not much.
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 1: I have delivered good news in the past to prisoners
Speaker 1: working in the in the control room, prisoner's partner, wife, girlfriend, whoever,
Speaker 1: has a baby, and once we inform the security supervisor
Speaker 1: on shift at night, they might say, yeah, look, give
Speaker 1: them the message, give them the good news, and you
Speaker 1: tell them down no, no, no, just through an intercomps
Speaker 1: calling him up in the cell.
Speaker 3: And the reaction to that. Can you remember doing that with.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, a few times. They're absolutely thrilled. They can't
Speaker 1: believe it, and you try and give them a few
Speaker 1: details about the baby being born, wait, sex, that sort
Speaker 1: of thing, and they're so thankful, thank you boss. So
Speaker 1: you're thank you. That's that's great news. Thank you very much,
Speaker 1: and really appreciate it.
Speaker 3: And do they remember that, you know, a week later.
Speaker 1: No, no, and they probably don't remember. Yeah, probably don't
Speaker 1: remember who actually told them that. But yeah, look, there
Speaker 1: are a few occasions where you do have some some moments,
Speaker 1: those small moments where it is just nice to work there.
Speaker 3: Have you ever met a prisoner that you genuinely liked
Speaker 3: as a person.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've met a few.
Speaker 3: One.
Speaker 1: He was actually and this has gone back, that's twenty
Speaker 1: twenty three years ago. He actually helped out the maintenance
Speaker 1: workers quite a bit, as like a plumber's mate. He
Speaker 1: would actually help them and that yeah, yeah, very good
Speaker 1: with the tools. Obviously you had to watch him like
Speaker 1: a hawk around those tools. But he was someone that
Speaker 1: you could generally say, he'll make a go of it
Speaker 1: when he's released.
Speaker 3: What sort of thing was he in for.
Speaker 2: I couldn't tell you. I really just didn't want to know.
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, there were a few. Have you been a
Speaker 3: trade do you think?
Speaker 1: Yeah, he sort of had that background and I think
Speaker 1: he wanted to sort of do a bit more with it.
Speaker 1: But there's other prisoners that I did need to know
Speaker 1: what their background was, because you know, I've dealt with
Speaker 1: murderers and killers and serial killers and gangland and you know,
Speaker 1: convicted terrorist suspects and that as well, So a whole range,
Speaker 1: a whole gambit of I'm going to persons.
Speaker 3: A rude question that you shouldn't be asked, but I'll
Speaker 3: do it because of the listeners will want to know. Yeah,
Speaker 3: you know, we last twenty five years, we've heard a
Speaker 3: lot of Ganglan wars and GANGLN figures have become well
Speaker 3: known and so on, and many of them did end
Speaker 3: up in Barwin Port. Philip, did you have you had
Speaker 3: much to do with some of those characters that were.
Speaker 2: A little bit along the way.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, we all knew and yeah loved all love.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was one who was released not that long ago.
Speaker 3: Oh right, yeah, the s CSG.
Speaker 1: And it was funny I told this is a bit
Speaker 1: of a fun fact to family that I was the
Speaker 1: last one to see Lee Barwin and wave goodbye to him.
Speaker 1: There was news choppers flying above the prison and they
Speaker 1: basically took him out on the way to court where
Speaker 1: he was then released. But I was, yeah, I was
Speaker 1: in the sally Port at the time.
Speaker 3: And strikes me we're talking about him, about Tony Mockbell.
Speaker 3: Strikes me as a fellow that most people who know
Speaker 3: him find him to be. You know, he's a businessman.
Speaker 3: He's a crooked businessman. He's a guy that likes to
Speaker 3: sell drugs to make money rather than you know, like
Speaker 3: what's the running around murdering people for kicks. His idea
Speaker 3: was to be as you said, you run into them.
Speaker 3: They think it's just a way to make business, make
Speaker 3: money to their families. And that was him him, and he's.
Speaker 1: Look, there's been quite a few over the years, some
Speaker 1: certainly some well known characters and that, and yeah.
Speaker 2: It's hard some of them.
Speaker 1: And you know, having dealt with some of them, you've
Speaker 1: got to be very very careful on your toes all
Speaker 1: the time and that so you get to know them,
Speaker 1: they get to know you. People would often say, well
Speaker 1: you know. How much do you actually tell them about yourself?
Speaker 1: I would often say, you know, look I live in
Speaker 1: Geelong and that's it. I don't have to specify exactly where,
Speaker 1: you know, but if they knew that I barracked for
Speaker 1: football club, who cares?
Speaker 2: What are they going to do with that information?
Speaker 1: But I would often come in and say to them
Speaker 1: after a weekend if Essendon lost, I said, anyone mentioned it,
Speaker 1: I'm going.
Speaker 2: To lock you up early.
Speaker 1: As a way of just having a joke with them.
Speaker 1: These days, twenty years ago you could do that. These
Speaker 1: days probably not so much. You generally find now with
Speaker 1: new staff it's a lot harder for them to build
Speaker 1: up the rapport that you have with prisoners.
Speaker 3: Do you find that the different ethnic groups, different language groups,
Speaker 3: et cetera, et cetera. We now have a country, at
Speaker 3: least in the big cities where half the people walking
Speaker 3: around their parents were born elsewhere, and that they are
Speaker 3: for a lot of people, English is a second language.
Speaker 3: Is that fact reflected in the jail population now? That
Speaker 3: the Essendon joke that was a good joke twenty years
Speaker 3: ago is not quite as good these days when you're
Speaker 3: dealing with Peo blues, idea of sports might be soccer
Speaker 3: or kickboxing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well again that probably also depends on which unit
Speaker 1: you actually walk into. Of course, there are some units
Speaker 1: where you do actually have a lot of the older heads,
Speaker 1: the older prisoners, so that joke would probably work with.
Speaker 2: Them, not so much with another unit.
Speaker 3: The young Middle East and not on.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you've got a lot of young offenders coming through
Speaker 1: the system these days, and that's very hard then making
Speaker 1: any type of connection with them.
Speaker 3: You know, the the middle aged Anglo like you and
Speaker 3: me hasn't got a lot in common with a twenty
Speaker 3: three year old Middle Eastern kid or island killer or whatever.
Speaker 2: It's all different background background.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you haven't really got a common experience.
Speaker 1: But no, I always liked if I was running the unit,
Speaker 1: always liked having some of the Asian prisoners as billets
Speaker 1: and they would like trusted workers within the actual unit
Speaker 1: to do cleaning and other jobs, and that staying because
Speaker 1: they would cook the most amazing meals and the whole
Speaker 1: unit would smell absolutely amazing.
Speaker 2: Really, Yeah, they were great.
Speaker 1: Other units you had older prisoners that may have that
Speaker 1: sort of gang laan background, right, They used to cook
Speaker 1: all of pasta and pizza, knights and it would smell
Speaker 1: absolutely amazing.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: But I again, I've worked with officers from all different backgrounds,
Speaker 1: from a lot of those different countries as well, and
Speaker 1: I always found the one the one rule that I
Speaker 1: would always use as far as initiating a conversation and
Speaker 1: getting to know people, and that was food.
Speaker 3: Food.
Speaker 2: We always jail, we all basically eat.
Speaker 1: We all then would start conversations off about food and
Speaker 1: things like that. And it was also a way of
Speaker 1: you know, getting prisoners to open up really in regards
Speaker 1: to they would have to order meals and that through
Speaker 1: the kitchen, so you'd be talking to them about what
Speaker 1: meals you like and what are you ordering this week
Speaker 1: and things like that as well.
Speaker 3: Common ground.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was just something that just finding that regardless
Speaker 1: of the background, regardless of where you came from, all
Speaker 1: your crime, it was something because we could all relate to.
Speaker 3: In jail where you haven't got a lot else to
Speaker 3: occupy yourself, food becomes quite an important item. Yeah, your
Speaker 3: next meal matters. It's quite a lot.
Speaker 1: I've seen fights break out over desserts in regards to
Speaker 1: what were they. I think it was a little bit
Speaker 1: of cake, custard and jelly hit of cream on top,
Speaker 1: but the kitchen the prisoners at the time basically put
Speaker 1: that aside. Someone went to a fridge to get theirs
Speaker 1: out and accused another prisoner of taking all that And
Speaker 1: it was just that that little spark that's that created
Speaker 1: an absolute assault and that's where you then have three
Speaker 1: or four prisoners jump jump in and yeah, history.
Speaker 3: Itself becomes massive. The famous prison wars at Pintridge in
Speaker 3: the bad old days in the drop of Red Hera
Speaker 3: was what they called the Great Sausage War, where, yeah,
Speaker 3: it was alleged that certain people had stolen the Christmas
Speaker 3: sausages and the other prisons weren't happy and they had
Speaker 3: a war inside that went on for months and a
Speaker 3: lot of people were badly injured.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you still have to this day. You still have
Speaker 1: kitchen workers that will try and smuggle meat, cheese, anything
Speaker 1: they can out of the kitchen down there, down down
Speaker 1: pants or anywhere that they can hide it and try
Speaker 1: and sneak it back to units. Really, and it's not
Speaker 1: always for them, it's for others that they will basically
Speaker 1: try and do things like that as far as food
Speaker 1: and things like that, something that they might not have
Speaker 1: readily accessible to. They will try and smuggle things around
Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, it happens quite often, and there'll be
Speaker 1: a little email that will come out the next day
Speaker 1: that so and so got caught and obviously they've been
Speaker 1: sacked from that position.
Speaker 2: And just to let the rest of the prison know.
Speaker 3: To be a cook or to work in the kitchen
Speaker 3: is quite a good privilege, is it not.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it is a good position because obviously you've
Speaker 1: got a lot then to occupy yourself. The worst thing
Speaker 1: inside is that you've got time and times against you
Speaker 1: in the in that you're doing your sentence. But every
Speaker 1: day you need something to occupy.
Speaker 3: Yourself interesting inside into the human condition. Isn't it that
Speaker 3: you need that in jail? The best thing is to
Speaker 3: do something because it makes the time past. Yeah, that's
Speaker 3: a lesson for all of us.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it is.
Speaker 1: And again referencing back to the book as well, the
Speaker 1: grief that I had afterwards, Grief is not something that
Speaker 1: you feel. Grief is is a place and that's where
Speaker 1: once you deal with it. Once you approach that, you
Speaker 1: deal with it, they often will say you can move on,
Speaker 1: and that's moving on from that place of grief.
Speaker 3: That's really the motivation for you to write it was
Speaker 3: what books Brian's story. Brian's Story written by Bruce McLeod.
Speaker 3: You're correct.
Speaker 1: It's available on Amazon. I am working with a company
Speaker 1: in Melbourne called Melbourne Audiobook Productions in trying to do
Speaker 1: the audiobook. The whole process of doing this was simple
Speaker 1: getting Brian's story out there. And I think we spoke
Speaker 1: earlier in regards to the fact that we all have stories,
Speaker 1: we all experience life, and for some of us we
Speaker 1: do experience crime. And I think it's important that it
Speaker 1: was for me telling the story because to me, Brian madded.
Speaker 3: This episode of Life and Crimes is dedicated to the
Speaker 3: memory of your friend Brian. Just Brian, Yeah, Brian, no surname, no,
Speaker 3: just Brian. Brian.
Speaker 1: He was my mate and I just you know, talking
Speaker 1: about him is a way of honoring him, is a
Speaker 1: way of honoring his memory and who he was. That
Speaker 1: was the first thing that he would basically say to people,
Speaker 1: just call me Brian, just.
Speaker 3: Call me Brian. Yeah, but don't call me a screw maggot.
Speaker 2: No, no, don't call me that.
Speaker 3: Thank you, Bruce McLeod, real name something else. Your book
Speaker 3: justifying the means is out there in the world. Thanks
Speaker 3: for coming to talk to us at Life and Crimes.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Andrew, I really appreciate it.
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening. Life and Crimes is a Sunday Herald
Speaker 3: Sun production for true crime Australia. Our producer is Johnty Burton.
Speaker 3: For my columns, features and more, go to Heroldsun dot
Speaker 3: com dot au forward slash Andrew rule one word. For
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Speaker 3: sold And if you want further information about this episode,
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