Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average person is
Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys, staid,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my chat with former
Speaker 1: Victoria and police officer Nile and Australian Federal Police officer Matt.
Speaker 1: If you listen to part one, we were talking about
Speaker 1: an incident that occurred in twenty fourteen where you guys
Speaker 1: were both stabbed in a terrorist attack that resulted in
Speaker 1: the person who stabbed you've been shot and killed. Sonia.
Speaker 1: First of all, welcome back, Thank you and Matt welcome back.
Speaker 2: Thank you again, guys.
Speaker 1: I put up front. I apologize putting you guys through this.
Speaker 1: You're talking about an incident that is a heavy incident
Speaker 1: and you're sitting there bravely. Yeah, it hasn't impacted. But
Speaker 1: what you described to me, that's a fear that we
Speaker 1: all have as police officers that we're going to get
Speaker 1: caught up in an incident like that. And you guys
Speaker 1: saw it, lived it, and survived it. Can we pick
Speaker 1: up the podcast from you were in the police station, Matt,
Speaker 1: and you've realized the extent of your your injuries. Ambulance
Speaker 1: have been called and they gave you the happy gas
Speaker 1: and off to hospital. So we'll leave you there in
Speaker 1: your happy space there for a bit.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 1: Okay, Nah, you've been stabbed and you've just taken the
Speaker 1: person's life. I haven't, in my experience seing any police
Speaker 1: officer that doesn't have an impact on Do you want
Speaker 1: to talk through what was going through your mind after
Speaker 1: that incident?
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3: Look in the immediate aftermath of when we're out there
Speaker 3: at the scene, firearms still drawn. My detective training is
Speaker 3: preserved this crime scene. So a member of the public
Speaker 3: who was in one of the residential apartments. He'd heard
Speaker 3: the gun shot and he came out. He had a
Speaker 3: mobile phone with him. At the exact same time, one
Speaker 3: of the AFP acting seam later came out. He had
Speaker 3: his firearm out and he comes up to me and
Speaker 3: goes what's happened? And at that sage, I'm thinking it's
Speaker 3: pretty obvious, isn't it. So I responded, I've just shot him.
Speaker 3: And the AFP member that asked where's newman, which I said,
Speaker 3: that's him, And at that stage I knew I can't.
Speaker 3: I cannot pass this crime scene over to this member
Speaker 3: because he's not even on the same level of what
Speaker 3: we're talking about with this incident. So I then got
Speaker 3: the AFP MEM to get the phone off the member
Speaker 3: of the public phone trip low and say two police
Speaker 3: have been stabbed. I need two ambulances and I need
Speaker 3: more police resources.
Speaker 2: Here.
Speaker 3: A young constable comes out from the police station, so
Speaker 3: I advise him to go inside, get some crime scene tape,
Speaker 3: and we'll block the road off because at this stage
Speaker 3: I don't want mum and dad's citizen driving in through
Speaker 3: the crime scene. Kids looking out the window at a
Speaker 3: body and a police officer that's just shot them, So
Speaker 3: that's traumatic itself for a member of the public, so
Speaker 3: preserving the crime scene was part of it. And then
Speaker 3: asking the member of the public to go inside get
Speaker 3: a blanket, we'll cover the body over. That never happened
Speaker 3: in regard to the blanket coming out, but the offer
Speaker 3: was made, and then the young constable asked him to
Speaker 3: get the personal protection kit and bandage up my injuries.
Speaker 3: So all while my firearm's still out covering the target,
Speaker 3: my feet are glued to the spot. I'm seeing blood
Speaker 3: dripping onto my foot from my injuries. At stage, I
Speaker 3: think I'm probably going to die while standing here from
Speaker 3: the blood loss, but the sense of duty as a
Speaker 3: detective was to remain there until I can pass this
Speaker 3: scene off to another detective. Fortunately for me, it was
Speaker 3: a couple of minutes later. One of my colleagues who
Speaker 3: I'd worked with at Parana Task Force was now a
Speaker 3: Dandenong detective and he turned up and I was telling
Speaker 3: him where my diary was the name of the offender
Speaker 3: and said, by the way, he's a terrorists, so we're
Speaker 3: going to need more resources out here for the bomb
Speaker 3: response for the vehicle and similar so at that stage,
Speaker 3: firearms seized place.
Speaker 1: You've kicked into police made. The whole thing was police made,
Speaker 1: but you've kicked into that. What people I don't think
Speaker 1: appreciate when you're involved in situations like that critical incidence
Speaker 1: that referred to in policing, that there's an investigation and
Speaker 1: quite often you feel like, and quite rightly, you've got
Speaker 1: to be able to justify your actions when someone's been
Speaker 1: shot and killed. But in instance I've been involved in
Speaker 1: as an operational police officer, when someone's life has been taken,
Speaker 1: you feel like you're a bad guy too. Like it's
Speaker 1: almost like you've been looked at as a suspect, and
Speaker 1: it might be subtle, and everyone tries to say the
Speaker 1: right things, but people look at you and go, what
Speaker 1: have you done? How did this happen?
Speaker 3: I experienced that within about five minutes. Gave that exact theory,
Speaker 3: and that is in the back of the ambulance. Now
Speaker 3: I know police procedure. We'll have a police member traveling
Speaker 3: with me for security but also recording anything that I say. Now,
Speaker 3: because I was playing clothes, the only thing I had
Speaker 3: on that represented me as a member of Victoria Police
Speaker 3: was my lanyard with identification now without asking, the constable
Speaker 3: in the back of the ambulance with me rip that
Speaker 3: lanyard off me. So essentially my attempts is a police
Speaker 3: officer when that lanyard went was, as you say, I thought,
Speaker 3: hang on, I'm now being looked at as the crook here,
Speaker 3: and it's up to me to justify my actions, not
Speaker 3: the other way around. So yeah, that was a really
Speaker 3: traumatic experience just having that lanyard ripped away from me
Speaker 3: in that fashion.
Speaker 1: It adds to the trauma, doesn't it. Getting back to you, Matt,
Speaker 1: we've got you in the ambulance. Now, Nile and your
Speaker 1: experience at the hospital, did you did you have concerns
Speaker 1: you were going to die?
Speaker 4: I was in a bit of pain in the ambulance
Speaker 4: and that the I guess the chest wound was a
Speaker 4: bit unknown, I guess, And you know, I was sort
Speaker 4: of sucking on the green whistle and you know, so
Speaker 4: the pain was okay, but then sort of rolling into
Speaker 4: the or sorry, We're driving along in the ambulance and
Speaker 4: there was a police constable similar to Nile. You know,
Speaker 4: issues in the in the recording things that I was saying,
Speaker 4: and I said, look, you got to call my my wife.
Speaker 2: And let her know. And so.
Speaker 4: Anyway, so she's made that phone call. And so by
Speaker 4: the time we rocked into I got into the Alfred,
Speaker 4: my wife and my sons were there or had were
Speaker 4: arriving just after I got there. I can't exactly remember,
Speaker 4: but I was sort of taken into the you know,
Speaker 4: the emergency department, and and the doctors and nurses all
Speaker 4: started to you know, to come in and start and
Speaker 4: start treating me. And and I remember the main doctor there,
Speaker 4: doctor Helen Sturgio, and and I'm thinking, this is this
Speaker 4: is a bit surreal. They're not yelling, They're not it's
Speaker 4: not bright lights, you know, it's not like you see
Speaker 4: TV shows are Oh, you know, we gotta do this,
Speaker 4: got do that. It was the most calm setting that
Speaker 4: I've ever been in or experienced in relation to suddenly
Speaker 4: so horrific. And so I was lying there and remember
Speaker 4: my wife at the times now my ex wife and
Speaker 4: my two sons were sort of standing over just to
Speaker 4: my right, and as I was lying on the trolley
Speaker 4: of the emergy department, and the doctors were talking, and
Speaker 4: you know, Helen was standing at the head of the
Speaker 4: bed and saying, Okay, we've got to look at this,
Speaker 4: and I came out what we think we're going to
Speaker 4: we might have to do is open chest surgery. So
Speaker 4: because they weren't sure about the wound and where it
Speaker 4: had gone and whatever. So that was when I sort
Speaker 4: of got a little bit concerned, because that's a pretty
Speaker 4: major operation to crack open your ribs and all that
Speaker 4: sort of stuff. And so my wife at the time
Speaker 4: and my boys, they were listening to all of this,
Speaker 4: and I looked over and you know, they're all, well,
Speaker 4: my wife and my oldest son were in tears, and
Speaker 4: the youngest one was a bit stole.
Speaker 2: But I'll sort of I'll get to that point later.
Speaker 4: And and anyway, so they're they're treating and talking to me,
Speaker 4: but you know, keeping me really calm, and you know,
Speaker 4: and but so I felt, while I sort of felt
Speaker 4: Jesus is pretty serious, I felt really just really well
Speaker 4: looked after, you know, and then the doctors. The doctor's
Speaker 4: taken the bandage off my head where just where I've
Speaker 4: been cut down the side here and like I said,
Speaker 4: there was a small artery just near a temple that
Speaker 4: was causing the main sort of bleeding. Anyway, it spurted
Speaker 4: and hit him in the face, and I was laying
Speaker 4: there gee sorry mate, and had.
Speaker 2: A bit of a giggle at that. And then and then.
Speaker 4: Helen had a crack at him because she said, what
Speaker 4: do you know, get out there now, You've got to
Speaker 4: be tested, and you know all this sort of stuff
Speaker 4: because he wasn't wearing a face mask and all that
Speaker 4: sort of stuff. So you know, a bit of comic
Speaker 4: relief at times when we were in there. But anyway, anyway,
Speaker 4: they took me off, did a CT scan and came
Speaker 4: back and and then I went off to surgery and
Speaker 4: and they just sort of patched up my eye for
Speaker 4: the time being and but operated on my shoulder.
Speaker 1: And with the eye injury, was there a concern for you,
Speaker 1: like you'd be thinking what's happened here? Like I disfigured
Speaker 1: that's going to get my eyesight? Yeah, those thoughts that
Speaker 1: would go through your mind as well.
Speaker 4: I don't know how it didn't, but the knife for
Speaker 4: somehow went down through my eyebrow, missed my eyelid, and
Speaker 4: then continued this down here, so it would have missed
Speaker 4: my eye.
Speaker 1: By left sitting here looking wondering whether that you've got
Speaker 1: the replacement in there. Because I'm looking at the scar,
Speaker 1: I thinking how did it miss it?
Speaker 4: I don't know, just lucky and unlucky situationally, Yes, and
Speaker 4: I had that surgery and then and see they just
Speaker 4: sort of patched this up. And then a couple of
Speaker 4: days later the plastic surgeon operated on the on the
Speaker 4: facial stuff.
Speaker 1: Okay, so trauma, trauma for you, trauma for your family. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you don't want to see your kids and your wife
Speaker 1: going through that. Your experience now at the hospital.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So, as I'm in the ambulance about to be taken away,
Speaker 3: I say to the attending detective, knowing our procedures, someone
Speaker 3: will knock on a wife's store, and the assumption at
Speaker 3: nine pm at night, if two polas are knocking on
Speaker 3: your door is not essentially your husband's dead. So I
Speaker 3: sent my wife a text message saying I'm okay, thinking
Speaker 3: that will be seen as a bit of a proof
Speaker 3: of life from her. I asked the detective to give
Speaker 3: her a phone call. As usual, his phone went flat
Speaker 3: so he couldn't make the phone called to preempt at
Speaker 3: that police will come around. He's okay those things. So
Speaker 3: I went to Dandenong hospital, which was about fifteen minutes
Speaker 3: away from where the incident occurred. And as we spoke
Speaker 3: about with the lanyard being ripped off, that was really
Speaker 3: demoralizing and made you feel like a crook. The one
Speaker 3: thing that really changed that once I got placed in
Speaker 3: the emergency ward, Assistant Commissioner Steve Fontana, who was in
Speaker 3: charge of Crime Command at that stage, came out to
Speaker 3: my hospital bed in uniform and he was holding my
Speaker 3: hand and that for me was so reassuring. For that
Speaker 3: five minutes. There was police from Victoria Police and the
Speaker 3: Australian Federal Police in the room. Because we've always spoken
Speaker 3: about in joint Cauniterrorism Team, it's not about our badge,
Speaker 3: it's not about our organizations, it's about that team. We
Speaker 3: had both organizations in that room with me. Was another
Speaker 3: heartfelt moment. My wife came into the room, We hugged
Speaker 3: and she had some tears. Spoke to mum and dad
Speaker 3: on the phone. They live in Country Victoria. They'd been
Speaker 3: listening to this incident on the radio.
Speaker 2: There was some.
Speaker 3: Wildly inaccurate reporting about One of the stations reported that
Speaker 3: potentially Newman had been shot while running into the police
Speaker 3: station which for Mum and Dad they're thinking, well, he's
Speaker 3: been shot in the back and the implications that that
Speaker 3: would bring with it. So there was that. There was
Speaker 3: another report a couple of days later that I had
Speaker 3: shot Newman at point blank range in the head while
Speaker 3: he's on top of Matt, stabbing him. Obviously inaccurate as well,
Speaker 3: and makes my professionalism brings that into account as what
Speaker 3: my response is. In the ambulance, the AMBO says to me,
Speaker 3: have you got any more stab wounds anywhere else? Which
Speaker 3: made my heart beat a little bit faster, thinking shit,
Speaker 3: I actually don't know. So I lift up my shirt
Speaker 3: and thankfully there was no wounds there. And I told
Speaker 3: the MBO that I'm a positive, which freaked him out
Speaker 3: and I said no, no, that's my blood type, thinking that
Speaker 3: I might need blood to replace it. So taken, Dan
Speaker 3: Andong had two nights in there. My initial reactions while
Speaker 3: I was in the bed, the two things I wanted
Speaker 3: to know was what did the public think about my
Speaker 3: actions out here tonight? And what does Victoria Police think
Speaker 3: about my actions? Those were the two things closest to
Speaker 3: my mind. My phone was going off with messages from
Speaker 3: colleagues of support, which, as you know, Gary and policing,
Speaker 3: is very rare until your retirement date that you actually
Speaker 3: get validation of how much valued you are and appreciated.
Speaker 3: So my phone was receiving a lot of messages, so
Speaker 3: I'd be in between having doctors come in reading some messages,
Speaker 3: crying away at such lovely messages the next day, and
Speaker 3: myself and Matt obviously couldn't speak to each other until
Speaker 3: we've given our statements to homicide. So I wanted to
Speaker 3: know how Matt was going. I'm sure he wanted to
Speaker 3: know how I was going as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, on that, And this is where a couple of
Speaker 1: things that you've been through this incident. I'm sitting here
Speaker 1: watching you guys talk about it, and your concern is
Speaker 1: not thankfully I survived or Matt survived, I do the
Speaker 1: right thing? How will people? And it's just ingrained into police,
Speaker 1: isn't it. You feel like you're going to be to
Speaker 1: blame and the fact you too, and I always struggled
Speaker 1: with this when I was leading critical investigations. You two
Speaker 1: have been caught up in this incident that clearly you
Speaker 1: want to talk about for emotional support. You've just been
Speaker 1: through something and you have to the people separated and
Speaker 1: that's hard, isn't it. And it makes you feel like
Speaker 1: you've done something wrong why we've been separated, And that's
Speaker 1: in police shootings. That's just the nature of the way
Speaker 1: they're investigating and saying that. I think we all sit
Speaker 1: here and we understand the need for accountability. It has
Speaker 1: to be, but it's just another layer of the things
Speaker 1: that you go through when you've been involved in a
Speaker 1: critical incident like this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're right.
Speaker 3: So as well as having my clothing sees for blessed
Speaker 3: testing in regard to it with gunshot residue, it was
Speaker 3: also one of my detective sergeant Tony Mars. He'd started
Speaker 3: leave the day before. He came in and stayed at
Speaker 3: my hospital for two days, didn't go home, and he'd
Speaker 3: come into my room and all I wanted to do
Speaker 3: was to talk about it, and of course he would
Speaker 3: have had to have recorded in his own book anything
Speaker 3: I said, so he had to get me onto another
Speaker 3: topic straight away, which all I wanted to do was
Speaker 3: to be able to speak to police Welfare, which I did.
Speaker 3: The Chief commissioner at the time, Ken Leigh, came to
Speaker 3: see me. The AFP Commissioner at the time was Andrew Colvin,
Speaker 3: and the commissioner came into my room and spoke to
Speaker 3: me one on one and I remember saying to him, Boss,
Speaker 3: you know I'm not one of yours, and he goes,
Speaker 3: I know that, but you'll be treated like one. And
Speaker 3: so whatever Victoria Police offered to me, the AFP also
Speaker 3: offered the exact same thing, whether it was chaplaincy wellbeing services,
Speaker 3: so really well supported by both organizations in the immediate aftermath.
Speaker 3: And then seeing after I gave me a statement, I
Speaker 3: was checking the media of the time and Luke Cornelius,
Speaker 3: the Assistant Commissioner at the time of Southern Metro Region
Speaker 3: where it occurred, he was there saying it's clearly obvious
Speaker 3: that two members have been attacked and they've defended themselves
Speaker 3: self defense rah rah, which is to be essentially.
Speaker 2: Cleared on the night.
Speaker 3: Is very unusual in regard to that.
Speaker 1: Is definitely normally police won't come out and make a comments.
Speaker 3: Absolutely so again that provided me with some comfort to
Speaker 3: know that I'd had the immediate backing from Victoria Police command.
Speaker 3: But also the next morning there were some flowers that
Speaker 3: had turned up in my hospital bed from a member
Speaker 3: of the public and with some really nice sentiments. So
Speaker 3: the two questions that were burning in my brain about
Speaker 3: how does the public feel, well it was answered with
Speaker 3: the flowers, And how does Victoria police feel? That was
Speaker 3: answered with a press conference.
Speaker 1: Matt, how long were you in the hospital for your recovery?
Speaker 4: I was in there for a week, got out on
Speaker 4: I think the Monday, and gave my statement I think
Speaker 4: on the Saturday, which was actually AFL Grand Final Day.
Speaker 1: And then does anyone care because you're a paramount supported
Speaker 1: like you made them come and get a statement on
Speaker 1: AFL Grand Final Day.
Speaker 4: Them, Yeah, maybe it was actually morning. So but the
Speaker 4: funny thing actually was that Professor Mark Fitzgerald, who's in
Speaker 4: charge of the sort of the trauma area of the
Speaker 4: Alfred and very highly respected. I had a great deal
Speaker 4: to do with him. He would come and check on
Speaker 4: me and and and this sort of thing. And he said, oh,
Speaker 4: you know what your plans for you know, what do
Speaker 4: you want to do on Grand Final Day? And I said, well,
Speaker 4: I got this crappy TV up here and whatever. Anyway,
Speaker 4: so Grand Final morning, a you know, a Sony Bravia
Speaker 4: TV comes in into the room and gets set up
Speaker 4: and you know, because the family were coming in and
Speaker 4: we were going to watch that we were going to
Speaker 4: watch the Grand Final that afternoon, you know, just as
Speaker 4: you know, you know, sort of a bit of a
Speaker 4: get together. And yeah, but that morning I gave my
Speaker 4: statement and then Nile and his family came in and
Speaker 4: I my mum and dad were there, and you know,
Speaker 4: they'd come down from New South Wales and and I
Speaker 4: remember Nile coming into the room and like we said,
Speaker 4: we hadn't spoken, and and and I think Dad shook
Speaker 4: Nile's hand, and Mom gave my hug and then they
Speaker 4: Mum said comments, and so they all sort of went out,
Speaker 4: and I just remember Noel and I had just given
Speaker 4: each other a massive hug, and you know that's I
Speaker 4: guess it was really reassuring that you know, we had
Speaker 4: then we sort of had that now well we've had
Speaker 4: that bond. And you know it's also I say, you know,
Speaker 4: we're sort of half blood brothers because he got stabbed
Speaker 4: in the arm and I got so I got some
Speaker 4: of his blood, but.
Speaker 2: He never got any of mine. So so.
Speaker 4: But yeah, that that morning was you know, it was
Speaker 4: really nice for I think my parents to meet Nile
Speaker 4: and his family. And and just you know, put put
Speaker 4: name to face and actually meet you know, the person
Speaker 4: who you know, you know you saved my life. During
Speaker 4: that week I sort of go back a bit. I
Speaker 4: was having nightmares or not nightmares. I was replaying the
Speaker 4: attack over and over and over while I slept, and
Speaker 4: it was like a video just going over and over
Speaker 4: and over.
Speaker 2: And the Alfred.
Speaker 4: PS psychiatrist came in and was speaking to me about,
Speaker 4: you know, how I was going and whatever. I said, oh, look,
Speaker 4: this is happening. And he said, have you given a statement?
Speaker 4: And I said no, no, that's happening on Saturday. And
Speaker 4: he said, well, I think after you've given your statement,
Speaker 4: you won't you won't be dreaming about this.
Speaker 2: And I thought that's a crock.
Speaker 4: Anyway, did a statement, what's the footy, you know on Saturday?
Speaker 4: And then after that it's the dreams stopped.
Speaker 2: So it was that I guess the.
Speaker 4: Concern of am I going to get this right in
Speaker 4: my you know, I'm going to say something wrong that's
Speaker 4: going to.
Speaker 1: I would imagine your second guessing yourself too. Should have
Speaker 1: we done? And that's that's the unfair part. We've not
Speaker 1: the unfair part. And I keep clarifying that we've got
Speaker 1: to be accountable. But the questions are, well, should have
Speaker 1: you gone out more tactical? Should have you done this?
Speaker 1: Should have you done that? And there's a lot of
Speaker 1: naysayers in there that trying to poke holes in everything
Speaker 1: that you've done, and you would know that someone's died,
Speaker 1: you're going to go for a coronial inquest. We'll get
Speaker 1: on to that, but I just see when you talking
Speaker 1: about it like, it digs up still the raw emotions
Speaker 1: and we're talking ten years ago. No, how does it
Speaker 1: feel you sitting here with Matt saying you've saved his life?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Look, this is always the emotional part of when we
Speaker 3: speak around it, that hospital meeting, hearing those words. I've
Speaker 3: heard it from Matt's dad before, thanks for saving them,
Speaker 3: my boy.
Speaker 2: I've heard it from one of Matt's best mates.
Speaker 3: It gets me every time because it's a responsibility that
Speaker 3: once you're a police officer and you're out on a job,
Speaker 3: you will do anything to save your own colleagues life,
Speaker 3: irrespective of how long you've worked with them for it.
Speaker 3: Good has to beat evil every single day in regard
Speaker 3: to it. So there's a lot of phrases within policing
Speaker 3: and labels that have put on people. But to have
Speaker 3: a comment like that that I've saved someone's life is
Speaker 3: words can't describe it. But I also throw back that
Speaker 3: Matt saved my life life too is in saying those words.
Speaker 3: Knife gave me the time and the opportunity to do
Speaker 3: what I needed to do and that of course absorbed
Speaker 3: a ferocious attack and we're only talking seconds, but that
Speaker 3: was enough for me to be able to then save
Speaker 3: his life by him taking on hater hand on hand.
Speaker 1: Essentially, it's heavy, guys, but you know when the when
Speaker 1: the chips were down, you both did what you had
Speaker 1: to do. So yeah, like full credit to well, always
Speaker 1: think how are you going to react in the situation
Speaker 1: If you had that and you'd like to think I'm
Speaker 1: going to do this and going to do that, you
Speaker 1: don't know until it happens, and you did. You both
Speaker 1: did your duties.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you don't know how you're going to react either,
Speaker 4: Like you know, you do your training and you think, oh, yeah,
Speaker 4: if something happened, I would just do this, this and this.
Speaker 4: You know, you don't know how your your body is
Speaker 4: going to naturally react, like you know, you know the
Speaker 4: fine motor skills and in everything like that. And I think,
Speaker 4: you know, you know all the reporting, you know, the
Speaker 4: CCTV foot he shows us walking out and then me
Speaker 4: coming back in, and that was seventy five seconds, But
Speaker 4: the attack itself was like twelve seconds.
Speaker 2: From the time that I.
Speaker 4: Was stabbed to the time that hater was shot, it
Speaker 4: felt so much longer, and time slowed down, you know,
Speaker 4: And we were talking about it and describing it before,
Speaker 4: you know, probably over fifteen to twenty minutes, however long
Speaker 4: it took to describe. But from that, like I said,
Speaker 4: you know that twelve seconds, it's two breaths, Yeah, you know,
Speaker 4: two deep breaths, and you're you're that's it.
Speaker 1: It's almost things yet have occurred.
Speaker 4: And that you know that twelve seconds, And I think
Speaker 4: the coroner said it in his findings. You know, our
Speaker 4: lives have been changed immeasurably, and from that small amount
Speaker 4: of time it would certainly have.
Speaker 2: That's dramatic.
Speaker 1: There's another thing I wanted to raise, and I'm not
Speaker 1: raising it because I'm raising it because I was reading
Speaker 1: up about this incident and the comments that were attributed
Speaker 1: to you guys that you've also got empathy for the family.
Speaker 1: Haters family, Yeah, it's you did what you had to do.
Speaker 1: It was your duty. And I would also say you
Speaker 1: probably if it wasn't you too, it could have been
Speaker 1: someone else in the situation might have been worse. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: you did what you had to do. But you're not
Speaker 1: sitting here full of bravado.
Speaker 2: Game.
Speaker 1: Well, this was a great day of policing. You've got
Speaker 1: thoughts for the family.
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 4: You know, they, like we said, lovely family, invited us
Speaker 4: into their home, spoke freely and openly about about newman
Speaker 4: and their concerns about him. And you could see that
Speaker 4: the love that they had for him just through you know,
Speaker 4: through those concerns and how much they cared, like it
Speaker 4: wasn't this. It wasn't you know, for one of a
Speaker 4: better term, a typical crook family where everyone was against
Speaker 4: the police.
Speaker 2: They were pro police, they.
Speaker 4: Were they were wanting their son, they wanted him not
Speaker 4: to be radicalized, they wanted him to continue on.
Speaker 2: And you know.
Speaker 4: When they're and and I think I don't think a
Speaker 4: lot of people sort of give them that much thought,
Speaker 4: but you know, they are victims in this as much
Speaker 4: as as anyone else is. And you know they've lost
Speaker 4: you know, while we're fortunate to be to be alive
Speaker 4: and to be with our families and not saying that
Speaker 4: we haven't had our psychological issues, but you know where
Speaker 4: you know, we're here now and you know we've we
Speaker 4: can hold our loved ones and be with them. You know,
Speaker 4: they lost a son that night, and it wasn't anything
Speaker 4: that they did. It was just the process that that
Speaker 4: radicalization process that that newman went through, and you know,
Speaker 4: and they.
Speaker 2: They paid, They paid the price.
Speaker 3: Also feel yeah, absolutely, Garry, I look at this one
Speaker 3: and go, it would have been nice if there was
Speaker 3: a different outcome and they could visit their son in
Speaker 3: prison every weekend or whatever it is like others get
Speaker 3: to do. But as Matt said, them for their family
Speaker 3: unit that broke up that night, the father, we know,
Speaker 3: he inquired about our welfare and hope hopefully we were recovering.
Speaker 3: And yeah, it does exactly right. And I've said it previously.
Speaker 3: I'd love to meet the family one day in regard
Speaker 3: to it and provide any context or clarity that they
Speaker 3: needed to because with the cranial processes, you know, it's
Speaker 3: very much each organization has their own ideas on how
Speaker 3: it transpired, and they don't want negative findings held against them,
Speaker 3: so sometimes, well all the time, it's quite emotionally overwhelming.
Speaker 3: So if we could sit with them and fill them
Speaker 3: in with any details they needed to know, that'd be
Speaker 3: great as well.
Speaker 1: The fact that they put the offer out whether they
Speaker 1: take the offer up is a choice for themselves, but
Speaker 1: it says a lot about you guys that you would
Speaker 1: sit down and have a chat. It frustrates me the
Speaker 1: people that radicalize these impressionable young men. It's a shame
Speaker 1: we can't keep go after the people that do that
Speaker 1: because the impact is at eighteen, you don't know what
Speaker 1: the world's about, do you, And you have someone putting
Speaker 1: thoughts in your head and the young bloke that Curtis
Speaker 1: Chain shooting up there at New South Wales police headquarters. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a terrible thing. How long after this incident did
Speaker 1: the cranial inquest take place? Because there's pressure there because
Speaker 1: you've got your statements get presented to the coroner. Corona
Speaker 1: makes a determination into the manner and cause of death
Speaker 1: and recommendations if there's police practices and procedures could have
Speaker 1: been done something differently, So again, you're under scrutiny there.
Speaker 1: It's not a case of you're going in there and
Speaker 1: everyone's clapping you. You're going in there, could have you
Speaker 1: done this? And a lot of naysayers, and you bring
Speaker 1: in the legal intellects that come in and go, well,
Speaker 1: why didn't you do this and why didn't you do that?
Speaker 1: How was your experience in the coroner's inquest.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're right with that, Gary, So with the cranial
Speaker 3: because it was terrorism, the current wanted to hear this
Speaker 3: matter as soon as possible, So I think it was
Speaker 3: around eighteen months after the shooting. I think it was
Speaker 3: around April sixteen March six sixteen, so and again we've
Speaker 3: spoken about accountability transparency, So I looked at all my
Speaker 3: training within Victoria Police that led me to that point
Speaker 3: to make sure I didn't have any blind spots that
Speaker 3: I knew how I was communicating with a youth, for example,
Speaker 3: what my strategies were, investigation plans. So there was a
Speaker 3: lot of fanatical work to make sure I could present
Speaker 3: the best evidence I could for the coronial because it
Speaker 3: is about discovering the truth of the death and how
Speaker 3: do we prevent these occurring? Now, terrorism in twenty fourteen
Speaker 3: with Matt spoke of we were previously investigating foreign fighters
Speaker 3: going offshore and now we were seeing homegrown terrorism where
Speaker 3: targets in Australia were being attacked. So this really needed
Speaker 3: to look at radicalization, how it was occurring, what can
Speaker 3: be done to stop that or slow that. So it
Speaker 3: took took that March twenty sixteen period. Now at that
Speaker 3: stage one of my very good mates, Steve Cooper and
Speaker 3: inspector with Victoria Police, we took up running together because
Speaker 3: I thought, I don't want to be not in a
Speaker 3: position to present the best evidence I can. If my
Speaker 3: brain says to me stop, then I'm going to fall over.
Speaker 3: I lose, my family lose, policing losers, my mates lose.
Speaker 3: So I'm going to run. I'm going to try in
Speaker 3: my brain that it will only stop when I say
Speaker 3: to So we started running, lost a lot of weight
Speaker 3: and the mental strength that came from running was really
Speaker 3: important for the cranial process. Is if there was anything negative,
Speaker 3: I could then go for a run and get the
Speaker 3: endorphins naturally from that. Compared to having a chocolate bar
Speaker 3: or a.
Speaker 2: Beer or whatever.
Speaker 1: It is a huge benefit.
Speaker 3: Absolutely so form Matt gave evidence before me, and then
Speaker 3: I came into the box on a Thursday night at
Speaker 3: about three pm, got my statement out. I read that
Speaker 3: that was a real emotional time. I'd read my statement
Speaker 3: hundreds of times with no emotion, and then when I
Speaker 3: physically read it to the court there was a couple
Speaker 3: of times I broke down because it was just so
Speaker 3: the enormity of the situation is a cronile, there's a
Speaker 3: family of a deceased.
Speaker 1: There person that you've shot and.
Speaker 3: Killed exactly right, and the expectations of the Commonwealth and
Speaker 3: the state in regard to our training and evidence to
Speaker 3: be given. So it got adjourned at four pm. So
Speaker 3: I'd given our evidence for one hour and then had
Speaker 3: to go home that night and sleep and then prepare
Speaker 3: for the next day. And I felt like a night
Speaker 3: watchman in cricket. Essentially had been bombarded for an hour
Speaker 3: and then had to sleep on it overnight until coming
Speaker 3: back in the evidence in itself, having given evidence in
Speaker 3: all the courts, it was okay, but it was a
Speaker 3: relief to be able to finally stand down from the
Speaker 3: box knowing that everything we'd experience had been spoken of
Speaker 3: and given to the courts for them to make determinations. Absolutely,
Speaker 3: but that really is the key to what we do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that your experience giving evidence.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a bit.
Speaker 4: It was leading up to it. I was, you know,
Speaker 4: just in my own head, you know, about how is
Speaker 4: this going to go? And I think the psychological pressure
Speaker 4: of what was coming up in relation to the inquest
Speaker 4: really really really got to me. And I was probably
Speaker 4: the worst person in the world a bit well, I know,
Speaker 4: I was probably one of the worst persons in the
Speaker 4: world to be around. I was just angry, and you know,
Speaker 4: I'd yell at the I yell at my kids just
Speaker 4: you know, for them breathing wrong and this sort of thing.
Speaker 4: So I was sort of this is sort of this
Speaker 4: January February, you know, it's leading up you know, reading
Speaker 4: my statement, talking to lawyers, you know, thinking about what's
Speaker 4: going to happen at the inquest, how are they going
Speaker 4: to what are they going to ask, you know, how
Speaker 4: they going to portray me and all this sort of stuff,
Speaker 4: and you know, and to the point where my marriage
Speaker 4: ended around the same sort of time. Yeah, and look
Speaker 4: at it, it was just it wasn't a planned thing
Speaker 4: to happen at that time. But you know, you know, anyway,
Speaker 4: at my marriage ended, you know, and I was just
Speaker 4: I was so that that had happened, and going into
Speaker 4: the inquest, so it was all this, you know, It
Speaker 4: was just I was just in my o head and
Speaker 4: you know. And then when I when I gave evidence,
Speaker 4: you know, we did it remotely because there was a
Speaker 4: bit of security of some security concerns about it, and
Speaker 4: so that was a bit sort of surreal, and only
Speaker 4: the I think the coroner and the conner's assistant could
Speaker 4: see us on the on the video screen and you know,
Speaker 4: and so I guess in a sense it it was
Speaker 4: a bit of a relief to be remote, not being
Speaker 4: in the room and just having everyone staring at you
Speaker 4: and you know and looking around and seeing the family,
Speaker 4: so you're a bit more removed. So that was probably
Speaker 4: not a bad thing, but it was still pretty intense.
Speaker 4: And I remember that around that time when I was,
Speaker 4: like I said, I was just angry, angry, angry, angry person.
Speaker 4: And I said, before you know, my youngest son was
Speaker 4: in the hospital room next to my oldests and Make's wife,
Speaker 4: and he was just emotionless, and I said, that's a
Speaker 4: bit weird. It was a couple of months later that
Speaker 4: I spoke to him and I said, I think he
Speaker 4: was probably so fourteen.
Speaker 2: He was probably twelve. He was twelve at the time
Speaker 2: of the attack.
Speaker 4: And I said, you know what, I remember being in
Speaker 4: the emergency room and you were standing there just emotionless,
Speaker 4: and he said, I didn't want to cry because I
Speaker 4: didn't want to upset you. That sort of stuck with me,
Speaker 4: and I went, how does a twelve year old, you know,
Speaker 4: come to this? And then leading up to the inquest,
Speaker 4: when I was angry and you know, this was sort
Speaker 4: of happening, and I walk in one day and there's
Speaker 4: a note, a little post it note on the kitchen
Speaker 4: bench with a paperweight, and it was it said, did Dad,
Speaker 4: no matter how angry you get, I will still love
Speaker 4: you and signed my son and you know, and yeah,
Speaker 4: and you think, you know, what is he? What have
Speaker 4: I done to you know, to all you people? And
Speaker 4: it took me quite a long time to realize that they,
Speaker 4: my family lived the attack with me. Other than the
Speaker 4: attack itself, they were in the hospital room. Until now
Speaker 4: they they they seem ups and downs, and I mean
Speaker 4: there's less downs now, but you know, during that initial
Speaker 4: time and it was really hard on them. And I think, yeah,
Speaker 4: there was, and you know, we'll probably talk about what
Speaker 4: happened later on, but it was. Yeah, the inquest was
Speaker 4: was pretty pretty tough mentally for me, and and then
Speaker 4: leading into the you know, to the findings, it was.
Speaker 1: Still yeah, still had been in policing long enough to
Speaker 1: know you can't really anticipate how the court's going to
Speaker 1: find that. Look, you look at one thing and it
Speaker 1: will come out come out different. I'm sorry you've gone
Speaker 1: through that. That's that's heavy stuff. And with your kids
Speaker 1: and you don't want to bring you bring your work
Speaker 1: home and you think you're protecting them and really haven't
Speaker 1: protected them at all. Over there exposed to a lot
Speaker 1: of it. But yeah, I'm sorry, Sorry you went through that.
Speaker 1: And just I think what's coming across speaking to you
Speaker 1: two guys is that you survived the incident. It should
Speaker 1: be on the movies, it's high fives and everyone goes
Speaker 1: out for a drink and yeah, look we've done our job.
Speaker 1: But it doesn't play out that way in real life,
Speaker 1: does it. The emotional impact that they had on relationships
Speaker 1: for you and your your your life, it's.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I concur with Matt. It's being in the center
Speaker 3: of that incident. It was like being the eye of
Speaker 3: a storm. Essentially. It's calm enough for us while we're
Speaker 3: in it, but the impact is being felt for our
Speaker 3: immediate families and the broader policing communities as well, and
Speaker 3: the clubs and associations were involved in so there's a
Speaker 3: significant impact. And to this day I'll still get people
Speaker 3: come up to me and say, oh, by the way,
Speaker 3: I did such and such in your in your incident,
Speaker 3: and those stories come out slowly in regard to it.
Speaker 3: After the cronial, myself and Matten, some of our colleagues
Speaker 3: from Victoria Police and the Federal Police. On the Sunday
Speaker 3: of the cronile finishing, we running the Herald Sun Run
Speaker 3: for the kids, sixteen kilometers and we managed to get
Speaker 3: that done. And after that I felt the need to
Speaker 3: run stopped as I'd given them evidence. My brain was
Speaker 3: trained to do that. But after the cranial had finished,
Speaker 3: I remember speaking to Joe Garzis, he was the Victoria
Speaker 3: Police psychologist in the peer Support unit, and he goes, well,
Speaker 3: now that the cranials ended, and yes, they'll be finding
Speaker 3: sound the track, but you'll feel like a part of
Speaker 3: you is gone, is you're no longer focusing on that incident,
Speaker 3: so you need to find something else to focus on.
Speaker 3: So for me, when you go through a critical incident,
Speaker 3: it brings you to the crossroads of your well being.
Speaker 3: What direction do I take from here? And for me,
Speaker 3: I thought, well, if I can be promoted, I'll put
Speaker 3: my heart and soul into policing even more because of
Speaker 3: the awakening of a police shooting. I want to make
Speaker 3: sure that my police colleagues are safe, that they're trained appropriately,
Speaker 3: that they're briefed according to the risk, the risk factors
Speaker 3: are known and disseminated. So for me, this created real
Speaker 3: opportunity to throw back in and give back to policing
Speaker 3: of the experience. So I spoke within policing to peer support,
Speaker 3: to the people about the benefits of our training on
Speaker 3: that night and one word saved our lives the A
Speaker 3: and Z CANA Terrorism tach Commander's course. So giving back
Speaker 3: in all these different units within policing to say that yes,
Speaker 3: we can go through these incidences, we can survive, we
Speaker 3: can grow with it. But by working so hard and
Speaker 3: being so driven in my work, that leads to burn
Speaker 3: out and everything else that comes with that, where you're
Speaker 3: just so focused that you lose sight of the glimmers
Speaker 3: of the sunshine, happy moments with family because you're just
Speaker 3: so focused and driven about.
Speaker 2: What your job is.
Speaker 3: So for me, I certainly struggle to then go back
Speaker 3: into normal uniform policing where you're seeing gaps. You're seeing
Speaker 3: gaps where there needs to be something put in place,
Speaker 3: and the poor police members I was working with were
Speaker 3: oblivious to those gaps. So for me, I felt the
Speaker 3: obligation too. It's my job to make sure they're appropriately
Speaker 3: trained and protected. So in essence, that is a thankless
Speaker 3: task and it's one that we're probably never ever going
Speaker 3: to win. So I'd bit no off a challenge that
Speaker 3: I had no chance of absolutely, and as a result,
Speaker 3: that's exactly what it did. From a professional perspective, that's
Speaker 3: destroyed me. By having minimal people within policing checking in
Speaker 3: on me, I was the one doing the checking in
Speaker 3: on everyone else, making sure right they're okay, with no
Speaker 3: one actually saying, hey, are you pretty strong and resilient?
Speaker 3: How are you going? Those conversations just weren't happening in policing,
Speaker 3: And unfortunately, nowadays I still don't think they're occurring. Hence
Speaker 3: so many injuries that are occurring. And in July this year,
Speaker 3: a couple of my very good policing mates who have
Speaker 3: been involved in a high profile shit, they've been l
Speaker 3: hell three tired themselves. So there's some issues there around
Speaker 3: how we support our members that have been through these credits.
Speaker 1: I've got the sense in speaking to your militant's probably
Speaker 1: a too strong a word, but you had that strong
Speaker 1: take on looking after members and after what you've been through,
Speaker 1: you've got a right to offer opinions on that. Then
Speaker 1: I can understand where your channeled your energies in there.
Speaker 1: But if you fight town hall it can be pretty
Speaker 1: sold destroying too. Yeah, if you take it on. I
Speaker 1: neglected to ask what was the findings from the corona
Speaker 1: when the coroner's findings were handed down.
Speaker 2: I think it was like fifty six pages of.
Speaker 4: Findings and believe it or not, not one recommendation.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So, like he said, you know, so i'd come
Speaker 4: back from p ANDNG I was posted over to Port
Speaker 4: Moresby with the AFP and I flew back for the
Speaker 4: handing down of the findings and we were in the
Speaker 4: AFP headquarters in La Trobe Street at the time, watching
Speaker 4: it remotely, and there was a few of us in there,
Speaker 4: people we'd worked with, and my dad had actually flown
Speaker 4: down and you know, to be there with me, and
Speaker 4: we were sitting there and you know, he read through,
Speaker 4: you know, and then he said, you know, and you know,
Speaker 4: because you know, like you said before, it's in your head.
Speaker 4: Have they sat down for the last This was July
Speaker 4: or June or July twenty seventeen, so this is almost
Speaker 4: three years later. So he's sitting there. I'm sitting there thinking, Okay,
Speaker 4: they've had almost three years to go through this shooting
Speaker 4: with a fine tooth comb. Are they going to pick
Speaker 4: something out and go you did wrong? You're going to
Speaker 4: be charged. So knowing like it was in my heart
Speaker 4: on you we had done nothing wrong, but in my
Speaker 4: head on overthinking stuff and you know, just you know,
Speaker 4: because you hear of you hear of it often that
Speaker 4: the cheral will make some sort of finding about the
Speaker 4: police actions and whatever. And I was I remember sitting
Speaker 4: there and we're in the room and he said, I
Speaker 4: pretty sort of paraphrasing, but you know, I can't find
Speaker 4: any issues with the police risk assessment that day. You know,
Speaker 4: I'd like to wish my condolences to the family and
Speaker 4: especially Officers A and B, whose lives have been changed immeasurably.
Speaker 4: And then he and he, he said that there was
Speaker 4: nothing that he could find that we were in the clear.
Speaker 2: I guess for what we did.
Speaker 4: And and when he said that, I just turned him
Speaker 4: my dad and hugged him and cried. It was it
Speaker 4: was a massive moment and a huge sense of relief
Speaker 4: that we didn't do anything wrong.
Speaker 1: Again, I get back to the fact that the way
Speaker 1: that you've explained it and every step that you take
Speaker 1: seemed to me, from a police officer's point of view,
Speaker 1: perfectly reasonable. And you guys would have known that too,
Speaker 1: your experienced police officers at the time. But you go
Speaker 1: through all this trauma thinking that there's going to be
Speaker 1: criticism of you in regardless of your actions, or you
Speaker 1: shouldn't have done this, or why didn't you do that?
Speaker 1: And I don't know why we've got that mindset in
Speaker 1: the police, but I understand where you're coming from. And
Speaker 1: any time I've been involved in incidence, you're thinking, what
Speaker 1: are they going to find we've done something wrong? It
Speaker 1: seems to be a cultural cultural thing.
Speaker 3: Certainly with ours, there was some potential criticism about the
Speaker 3: location of the meat, was appropriate, was there enough lighting?
Speaker 3: As you know, within policing we work in all sorts
Speaker 3: of conditions in all those sees.
Speaker 1: Let's zero on next, because that would be the type
Speaker 1: of things that would really give me the shits with it.
Speaker 1: You've done really well to actually get him to a meeting,
Speaker 1: Like you could have spent two weeks looking for him,
Speaker 1: but you've managed to taking controlled risks, make the phone
Speaker 1: call there, take it, and then if people sit back
Speaker 1: not involved in it, go well, why didn't you do this?
Speaker 1: Or why couldn't you have waited till the next day? Well,
Speaker 1: the next day he might have turned up little things
Speaker 1: like that, the other things that irk me when you
Speaker 1: get scrutinized on jobs. Absolutely, but you're making operational decisions
Speaker 1: in real time, like that phone call. Once he picked
Speaker 1: up the phone, you had five minutes basically to think, Okay,
Speaker 1: how are we going to do this, whereas someone reviewing it,
Speaker 1: as you said, could have three months to review it
Speaker 1: and go, well, perhaps they should have made the appointment
Speaker 1: for a later time.
Speaker 4: You Yeah, and highsight's a wonderful thing in that I
Speaker 4: know that there were evidence was given by a senior
Speaker 4: police that if all the information had been known and
Speaker 4: available to us, we wouldn't have met with him. So
Speaker 4: that was where I was talking about that internet, that
Speaker 4: lack of intelligence flow from AZO to the AFP and
Speaker 4: Big Pole, and you know it's and you sort of
Speaker 4: look at that and go talking about the inquest, you know,
Speaker 4: leading up to it and after the attack, And I
Speaker 4: was self doubting myself. You know, why why didn't I
Speaker 4: control the going? Why didn't I try and control the knife?
Speaker 4: Why didn't I Why didn't I do this? Why didn't
Speaker 4: I do that? Why did I?
Speaker 2: Say? Yeah?
Speaker 4: Like, you're right, you just you're self critiquing yourself, but
Speaker 4: in a negative way, so it putting more pressure on yourself,
Speaker 4: more pressure and more pressure.
Speaker 1: It's now ten years after the incident. How are you
Speaker 1: guys now in your quiet moments? Is it's still something
Speaker 1: that lives with you every day?
Speaker 2: Yes? And no?
Speaker 4: Like the like, I don't think of the the attack
Speaker 4: itself every day. I don't think they sort of reminded.
Speaker 4: You just look in the mirror, you doing your hair
Speaker 4: or whatever, and you see the scar.
Speaker 1: I don't know because I don't look in the.
Speaker 4: I do it very very very brief or have a
Speaker 4: shave or something. But yeah, you just sort of it's there,
Speaker 4: like it's a it's a concert minded not that you
Speaker 4: think about it all the time, but it's it is,
Speaker 4: it is, it is there for me. And but saying that,
Speaker 4: you know, like I've you know, I've gone through a
Speaker 4: lot of you know, psychological trauma over the last ten
Speaker 4: years in relation to PTSD and you know, suicidal thoughts
Speaker 4: and and and those sort of things. But you know,
Speaker 4: now you know with a and I know the term
Speaker 4: gets thrown around quite regularly that this post traumatic growth
Speaker 4: and I've certainly experienced that, and it's it's changed the
Speaker 4: way that I am. I'm not saying, you know, I'm
Speaker 4: not perfect, and you asked my fiance and sure say no, no,
Speaker 4: he's not perfect. But without her and you know, your
Speaker 4: family being around to support you and and them seeing
Speaker 4: them seeing that growth, that's that's probably been one of
Speaker 4: the biggest things over the last probably since twenty and eighteen,
Speaker 4: so the last you know, eight years, slowly but surely,
Speaker 4: and then certainly over the last five years, just being
Speaker 4: able to be a better person, and I've said it.
Speaker 4: I said it, you know recently. You know, I never
Speaker 4: used to tell my kids that I really that I
Speaker 4: love them, or you know, I speak to my mom
Speaker 4: and dad on the phone and I never say I
Speaker 4: love you or my sister or my brother or and
Speaker 4: now it's whether my boys want to hear it after
Speaker 4: a phone call or you know, saying good night. You know,
Speaker 4: it's like, you know, I love you, and and you
Speaker 4: get it back most of the time, and you know,
Speaker 4: and you say it to your mum and you just
Speaker 4: know that, and my partner and you know, it's something
Speaker 4: that it was a terrible situation and a terrible time,
Speaker 4: you know, the attack, the inquest and then the findings
Speaker 4: and then going through that PTSD and the down and
Speaker 4: the dark and the everything that goes with that. But
Speaker 4: you know, I think we've spoken about it, Nola and
Speaker 4: I and we wouldn't change. I don't think we would
Speaker 4: change being involved in the attack, because without it, it
Speaker 4: wouldn't have made me the person I am today.
Speaker 1: I get to the opportunity of speaking to a lot
Speaker 1: of people who have been through some serious stuff in
Speaker 1: the vein of what you've been through, and that I think, Yeah,
Speaker 1: as you said, life can be fleeingly short. So you're
Speaker 1: telling your kids you love them or thinking about things
Speaker 1: and you don't sweat little things as much because yeah,
Speaker 1: because yeah, you realize how tenuous life can be. What
Speaker 1: about the impact that it's had on you team?
Speaker 3: Unlike Matt, I've got an eleven year old daughter, say,
Speaker 3: I've got no chance of her telling me that she
Speaker 3: loves me, So that LEU will occur in another twenty
Speaker 3: years time.
Speaker 1: We'll have you back in five years time.
Speaker 3: And how you went exactly same as Matt. So I
Speaker 3: was diagnosed with PTSD and other conditions in twenty twenty one,
Speaker 3: so I'd ignored a lot of symptoms and thinking again,
Speaker 3: we're in policing, we're all struggling from different things that
Speaker 3: we see and experience. So for me, actually getting diagnosed
Speaker 3: and treatment plans and then support is absolutely key to it.
Speaker 3: So one of the things, and it's a pretty simple step.
Speaker 3: But my psychologist, Fairly Morgan, she put me onto a
Speaker 3: book written by a doctor John Arden, which talks about
Speaker 3: the five good steps of mental health, which is sleep, exercise, education, diet,
Speaker 3: and social support. Now I don't do all of those
Speaker 3: very well. Each day, but it is a task to
Speaker 3: try and tick as many of those off as possible.
Speaker 3: Give your framework absolutely, which I look at it the
Speaker 3: acronym of seeds. It's pretty simple. But then having the
Speaker 3: time now being ill health retired from policing to actually
Speaker 3: catch up with people that you want to to actually
Speaker 3: engage with them in a stress free setting where you're
Speaker 3: not making life or death decisions is good for me.
Speaker 3: But I agree with Matt there is also growth because
Speaker 3: we've met some exceptional people along the way, other police
Speaker 3: who have been involved in shootings. We're both members of
Speaker 3: the Australian Bravery Association, and there's an incredible group of
Speaker 3: people that have been from police, military emergency services and civilians,
Speaker 3: people fighting sharks, people Daryl Tree from South Australia with
Speaker 3: a Cross a Valor Award for saving a father and
Speaker 3: son being electrocuted like these are amazing acts of courage
Speaker 3: and gallantry that we're proud to be a part of it.
Speaker 3: And with those like minded people there's absolute strength that
Speaker 3: comes from it as well, where we don't sit there
Speaker 3: and talk about our incidences, but we talk about the
Speaker 3: good things in life and what next week look like,
Speaker 3: What are we looking forward to. So there's a real
Speaker 3: lot of positive issues that come from that shooting. Six
Speaker 3: hundred and fifty million dollars federally was allocated towards counter terrorism.
Speaker 3: After the shooting and the cafe siege, meta data retention
Speaker 3: laws change as a result. So if our incident had
Speaker 3: just been a stop, go incident and move on, then
Speaker 3: you look at it and go, we lost. But the
Speaker 3: legacy that came out of that is really significant. Matt's
Speaker 3: done public speaking and.
Speaker 2: Who was it?
Speaker 1: Was it Matt that the UN Yeah, Matt un Congress
Speaker 1: A Victims of Terrorism yep. I made a note there
Speaker 1: that sounds like a pretty big deal. Tell us about that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well that was in twenty twenty two and I
Speaker 4: was having some troubles at work at the time, as
Speaker 4: in PTSD needing to move and I was actually on
Speaker 4: sick leave in that August, and I've got a phone
Speaker 4: call from Evon Crazy, who's one of the AFP. She's
Speaker 4: a PILO Field of vest Ago over the aison officer,
Speaker 4: so she was in charge that area. But I'd had
Speaker 4: something to do with her, and she said, you know,
Speaker 4: do you want to do you want to come on
Speaker 4: this come to New York and you know, you go
Speaker 4: to that the Congress of Victims of Terrorism, and it
Speaker 4: was like, oh, yes, that'd be awesome. And anyway, so
Speaker 4: I sort of got back to work and we went
Speaker 4: over early September. I was late September because it was
Speaker 4: the twenty first anniversary of the September eleventh attacks. When
Speaker 4: we were there and you know, had the opportunity to
Speaker 4: to address the Congress. And it's only a short time,
Speaker 4: three minutes, but it was nice to be able to
Speaker 4: put you know, relay by and Nile's experiences around the attack,
Speaker 4: but also how our work had affected us and and
Speaker 4: that sort of thing. And while it was only three minutes,
Speaker 4: I think I got the point across, you know, but
Speaker 4: saying that, I got back to work and you know, thinking,
Speaker 4: you know, this is wow. You know, I spoke at
Speaker 4: the U n you know, there was all these people
Speaker 4: there and how how cool is this? And you know
Speaker 4: I got back to work and there was crickets and
Speaker 4: you know, I think the only comment I got was
Speaker 4: how was your junket? And I'm thinking I wouldn't have
Speaker 4: been on this trip if I hadn't been almost killed,
Speaker 4: you know, eight years ago or whenever what was and
Speaker 4: you know, so it just left this you know, this
Speaker 4: dirty sort of taste in my mouth, and and then
Speaker 4: you know, sort of some other things that work happened,
Speaker 4: and I was you know, it was just it was
Speaker 4: sort of almost the last straw, I guess, and that's
Speaker 4: been off work, you know, two years this month.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, I don't know. Like those little comments like that,
Speaker 1: it speaks to the culture of a lot of police organizations,
Speaker 1: just the negative they drag, drag you down, like the junket,
Speaker 1: how is the junket? Like people should have been going
Speaker 1: really proud of you. That must have been a great
Speaker 1: experience and how much how different would that make you
Speaker 1: feel than how is your junket? There's a cynicism in organizations.
Speaker 1: It's quite quite frustrating.
Speaker 4: And you said before, you know, you know, you answer
Speaker 4: it the little things, but the little things can make a.
Speaker 2: Mass difference, adds up, adds up.
Speaker 4: So that little comment, as well as other things, you know,
Speaker 4: just it just and when you've got PTSD, things like
Speaker 4: that are magnified enormously.
Speaker 2: So yeah, just yeah, I guess it.
Speaker 1: Hurt And yeah, okay, no, I think when you explain
Speaker 1: it that way, I can understand that you come come back,
Speaker 1: you're proud, and then you just drag back down in
Speaker 1: the in the world. No. Twenty nineteen, you've got to
Speaker 1: present the match day football Hawthorn versus Collingwood game. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that was after getting the Bravery Award and different things
Speaker 1: you wanted to tell us.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3: So myself and matter received common Off Bravery Medals, the
Speaker 3: Australian Federal Police Bravery Medal, and I was lucky enough
Speaker 3: to receive the Victoria Police Valor Awards. So Chief Commissioner
Speaker 3: Graham Ashton he nominated me for the Emergency Services Person
Speaker 3: of the Year. So as a result of that, presenting
Speaker 3: the match day football to the umpires at the MCG
Speaker 3: on a Friday night, the Hawthorne Collingwood game sixty five
Speaker 3: thousand people in police uniform. Which is really incredible to
Speaker 3: see the recognition for emergency services workers, not just myself,
Speaker 3: but for all of us, recognizing the work that we do.
Speaker 3: So really proud moment to be there and being part
Speaker 3: of that.
Speaker 1: Okay, well look guys, I think we might wrap it
Speaker 1: up on this note. I want to say the way
Speaker 1: that you've articulated your journey that you've been through and
Speaker 1: the experience and the way that you're looking at policing
Speaker 1: and what it's done. I want to thank you for
Speaker 1: the services that you've done. And I don't say that lightly.
Speaker 1: I sit here, I know the price that you guys
Speaker 1: have paid, and you've paid in a bit big way.
Speaker 1: But you should be proud of proud of what you did,
Speaker 1: and you've been tested at that's real sharp end and
Speaker 1: no one knows how they're going to react in the
Speaker 1: way that you guys reacted.
Speaker 2: You should be should be proud of.
Speaker 1: So hope best for the future and stay stay positive
Speaker 1: and thanks for coming on. I catch killers.
Speaker 2: Thanks Gary, Thanks Gary, appreciate your buying as you thank you. Cheers.
Speaker 1: Guys. Just goes to show, doesn't it that people that
Speaker 1: are involved in an instance like that that has a
Speaker 1: profound and long term.
Speaker 2: Effect on it.
Speaker 1: I really appreciated both Nyall and Matt coming on and
Speaker 1: sharing their experience in the heavy situation they found themselves
Speaker 1: in
Speaker 2: That they managed to find a way out, which is impressive.