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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average person is

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Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys, staid,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my chat with former

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Speaker 1: Victoria and police officer Nile and Australian Federal Police officer Matt.

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Speaker 1: If you listen to part one, we were talking about

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Speaker 1: an incident that occurred in twenty fourteen where you guys

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Speaker 1: were both stabbed in a terrorist attack that resulted in

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Speaker 1: the person who stabbed you've been shot and killed. Sonia.

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Speaker 1: First of all, welcome back, Thank you and Matt welcome back.

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Speaker 2: Thank you again, guys.

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Speaker 1: I put up front. I apologize putting you guys through this.

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Speaker 1: You're talking about an incident that is a heavy incident

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Speaker 1: and you're sitting there bravely. Yeah, it hasn't impacted. But

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Speaker 1: what you described to me, that's a fear that we

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Speaker 1: all have as police officers that we're going to get

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Speaker 1: caught up in an incident like that. And you guys

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Speaker 1: saw it, lived it, and survived it. Can we pick

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Speaker 1: up the podcast from you were in the police station, Matt,

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Speaker 1: and you've realized the extent of your your injuries. Ambulance

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Speaker 1: have been called and they gave you the happy gas

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Speaker 1: and off to hospital. So we'll leave you there in

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Speaker 1: your happy space there for a bit.

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Speaker 2: Yep.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Nah, you've been stabbed and you've just taken the

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Speaker 1: person's life. I haven't, in my experience seing any police

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Speaker 1: officer that doesn't have an impact on Do you want

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Speaker 1: to talk through what was going through your mind after

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Speaker 1: that incident?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 3: Look in the immediate aftermath of when we're out there

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Speaker 3: at the scene, firearms still drawn. My detective training is

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Speaker 3: preserved this crime scene. So a member of the public

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Speaker 3: who was in one of the residential apartments. He'd heard

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Speaker 3: the gun shot and he came out. He had a

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Speaker 3: mobile phone with him. At the exact same time, one

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Speaker 3: of the AFP acting seam later came out. He had

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Speaker 3: his firearm out and he comes up to me and

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Speaker 3: goes what's happened? And at that sage, I'm thinking it's

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Speaker 3: pretty obvious, isn't it. So I responded, I've just shot him.

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Speaker 3: And the AFP member that asked where's newman, which I said,

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Speaker 3: that's him, And at that stage I knew I can't.

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Speaker 3: I cannot pass this crime scene over to this member

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Speaker 3: because he's not even on the same level of what

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Speaker 3: we're talking about with this incident. So I then got

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Speaker 3: the AFP MEM to get the phone off the member

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Speaker 3: of the public phone trip low and say two police

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Speaker 3: have been stabbed. I need two ambulances and I need

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Speaker 3: more police resources.

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Speaker 2: Here.

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Speaker 3: A young constable comes out from the police station, so

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Speaker 3: I advise him to go inside, get some crime scene tape,

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Speaker 3: and we'll block the road off because at this stage

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Speaker 3: I don't want mum and dad's citizen driving in through

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Speaker 3: the crime scene. Kids looking out the window at a

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Speaker 3: body and a police officer that's just shot them, So

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Speaker 3: that's traumatic itself for a member of the public, so

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Speaker 3: preserving the crime scene was part of it. And then

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Speaker 3: asking the member of the public to go inside get

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Speaker 3: a blanket, we'll cover the body over. That never happened

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Speaker 3: in regard to the blanket coming out, but the offer

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Speaker 3: was made, and then the young constable asked him to

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Speaker 3: get the personal protection kit and bandage up my injuries.

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Speaker 3: So all while my firearm's still out covering the target,

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Speaker 3: my feet are glued to the spot. I'm seeing blood

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Speaker 3: dripping onto my foot from my injuries. At stage, I

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Speaker 3: think I'm probably going to die while standing here from

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Speaker 3: the blood loss, but the sense of duty as a

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Speaker 3: detective was to remain there until I can pass this

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Speaker 3: scene off to another detective. Fortunately for me, it was

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Speaker 3: a couple of minutes later. One of my colleagues who

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Speaker 3: I'd worked with at Parana Task Force was now a

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Speaker 3: Dandenong detective and he turned up and I was telling

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Speaker 3: him where my diary was the name of the offender

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Speaker 3: and said, by the way, he's a terrorists, so we're

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Speaker 3: going to need more resources out here for the bomb

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Speaker 3: response for the vehicle and similar so at that stage,

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Speaker 3: firearms seized place.

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Speaker 1: You've kicked into police made. The whole thing was police made,

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Speaker 1: but you've kicked into that. What people I don't think

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Speaker 1: appreciate when you're involved in situations like that critical incidence

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Speaker 1: that referred to in policing, that there's an investigation and

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Speaker 1: quite often you feel like, and quite rightly, you've got

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Speaker 1: to be able to justify your actions when someone's been

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Speaker 1: shot and killed. But in instance I've been involved in

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Speaker 1: as an operational police officer, when someone's life has been taken,

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Speaker 1: you feel like you're a bad guy too. Like it's

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Speaker 1: almost like you've been looked at as a suspect, and

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Speaker 1: it might be subtle, and everyone tries to say the

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Speaker 1: right things, but people look at you and go, what

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Speaker 1: have you done? How did this happen?

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Speaker 3: I experienced that within about five minutes. Gave that exact theory,

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Speaker 3: and that is in the back of the ambulance. Now

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Speaker 3: I know police procedure. We'll have a police member traveling

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Speaker 3: with me for security but also recording anything that I say. Now,

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Speaker 3: because I was playing clothes, the only thing I had

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Speaker 3: on that represented me as a member of Victoria Police

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Speaker 3: was my lanyard with identification now without asking, the constable

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Speaker 3: in the back of the ambulance with me rip that

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Speaker 3: lanyard off me. So essentially my attempts is a police

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Speaker 3: officer when that lanyard went was, as you say, I thought,

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Speaker 3: hang on, I'm now being looked at as the crook here,

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Speaker 3: and it's up to me to justify my actions, not

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Speaker 3: the other way around. So yeah, that was a really

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Speaker 3: traumatic experience just having that lanyard ripped away from me

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Speaker 3: in that fashion.

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Speaker 1: It adds to the trauma, doesn't it. Getting back to you, Matt,

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Speaker 1: we've got you in the ambulance. Now, Nile and your

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Speaker 1: experience at the hospital, did you did you have concerns

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Speaker 1: you were going to die?

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Speaker 4: I was in a bit of pain in the ambulance

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Speaker 4: and that the I guess the chest wound was a

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Speaker 4: bit unknown, I guess, And you know, I was sort

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Speaker 4: of sucking on the green whistle and you know, so

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Speaker 4: the pain was okay, but then sort of rolling into

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Speaker 4: the or sorry, We're driving along in the ambulance and

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Speaker 4: there was a police constable similar to Nile. You know,

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Speaker 4: issues in the in the recording things that I was saying,

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Speaker 4: and I said, look, you got to call my my wife.

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Speaker 2: And let her know. And so.

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Speaker 4: Anyway, so she's made that phone call. And so by

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Speaker 4: the time we rocked into I got into the Alfred,

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Speaker 4: my wife and my sons were there or had were

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Speaker 4: arriving just after I got there. I can't exactly remember,

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Speaker 4: but I was sort of taken into the you know,

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Speaker 4: the emergency department, and and the doctors and nurses all

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Speaker 4: started to you know, to come in and start and

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Speaker 4: start treating me. And and I remember the main doctor there,

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Speaker 4: doctor Helen Sturgio, and and I'm thinking, this is this

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Speaker 4: is a bit surreal. They're not yelling, They're not it's

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Speaker 4: not bright lights, you know, it's not like you see

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Speaker 4: TV shows are Oh, you know, we gotta do this,

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Speaker 4: got do that. It was the most calm setting that

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Speaker 4: I've ever been in or experienced in relation to suddenly

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Speaker 4: so horrific. And so I was lying there and remember

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Speaker 4: my wife at the times now my ex wife and

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Speaker 4: my two sons were sort of standing over just to

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Speaker 4: my right, and as I was lying on the trolley

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Speaker 4: of the emergy department, and the doctors were talking, and

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Speaker 4: you know, Helen was standing at the head of the

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Speaker 4: bed and saying, Okay, we've got to look at this,

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Speaker 4: and I came out what we think we're going to

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Speaker 4: we might have to do is open chest surgery. So

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Speaker 4: because they weren't sure about the wound and where it

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Speaker 4: had gone and whatever. So that was when I sort

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Speaker 4: of got a little bit concerned, because that's a pretty

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Speaker 4: major operation to crack open your ribs and all that

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Speaker 4: sort of stuff. And so my wife at the time

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Speaker 4: and my boys, they were listening to all of this,

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Speaker 4: and I looked over and you know, they're all, well,

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Speaker 4: my wife and my oldest son were in tears, and

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Speaker 4: the youngest one was a bit stole.

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Speaker 2: But I'll sort of I'll get to that point later.

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Speaker 4: And and anyway, so they're they're treating and talking to me,

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Speaker 4: but you know, keeping me really calm, and you know,

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Speaker 4: and but so I felt, while I sort of felt

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Speaker 4: Jesus is pretty serious, I felt really just really well

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Speaker 4: looked after, you know, and then the doctors. The doctor's

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Speaker 4: taken the bandage off my head where just where I've

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Speaker 4: been cut down the side here and like I said,

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Speaker 4: there was a small artery just near a temple that

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Speaker 4: was causing the main sort of bleeding. Anyway, it spurted

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Speaker 4: and hit him in the face, and I was laying

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Speaker 4: there gee sorry mate, and had.

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Speaker 2: A bit of a giggle at that. And then and then.

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Speaker 4: Helen had a crack at him because she said, what

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Speaker 4: do you know, get out there now, You've got to

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Speaker 4: be tested, and you know all this sort of stuff

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Speaker 4: because he wasn't wearing a face mask and all that

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Speaker 4: sort of stuff. So you know, a bit of comic

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Speaker 4: relief at times when we were in there. But anyway, anyway,

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Speaker 4: they took me off, did a CT scan and came

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Speaker 4: back and and then I went off to surgery and

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Speaker 4: and they just sort of patched up my eye for

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Speaker 4: the time being and but operated on my shoulder.

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Speaker 1: And with the eye injury, was there a concern for you,

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Speaker 1: like you'd be thinking what's happened here? Like I disfigured

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Speaker 1: that's going to get my eyesight? Yeah, those thoughts that

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Speaker 1: would go through your mind as well.

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Speaker 4: I don't know how it didn't, but the knife for

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Speaker 4: somehow went down through my eyebrow, missed my eyelid, and

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Speaker 4: then continued this down here, so it would have missed

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Speaker 4: my eye.

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Speaker 1: By left sitting here looking wondering whether that you've got

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Speaker 1: the replacement in there. Because I'm looking at the scar,

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Speaker 1: I thinking how did it miss it?

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Speaker 4: I don't know, just lucky and unlucky situationally, Yes, and

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Speaker 4: I had that surgery and then and see they just

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Speaker 4: sort of patched this up. And then a couple of

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Speaker 4: days later the plastic surgeon operated on the on the

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Speaker 4: facial stuff.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so trauma, trauma for you, trauma for your family. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you don't want to see your kids and your wife

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Speaker 1: going through that. Your experience now at the hospital.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So, as I'm in the ambulance about to be taken away,

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Speaker 3: I say to the attending detective, knowing our procedures, someone

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Speaker 3: will knock on a wife's store, and the assumption at

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Speaker 3: nine pm at night, if two polas are knocking on

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Speaker 3: your door is not essentially your husband's dead. So I

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Speaker 3: sent my wife a text message saying I'm okay, thinking

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Speaker 3: that will be seen as a bit of a proof

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Speaker 3: of life from her. I asked the detective to give

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Speaker 3: her a phone call. As usual, his phone went flat

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Speaker 3: so he couldn't make the phone called to preempt at

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Speaker 3: that police will come around. He's okay those things. So

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Speaker 3: I went to Dandenong hospital, which was about fifteen minutes

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Speaker 3: away from where the incident occurred. And as we spoke

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Speaker 3: about with the lanyard being ripped off, that was really

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Speaker 3: demoralizing and made you feel like a crook. The one

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Speaker 3: thing that really changed that once I got placed in

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Speaker 3: the emergency ward, Assistant Commissioner Steve Fontana, who was in

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Speaker 3: charge of Crime Command at that stage, came out to

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Speaker 3: my hospital bed in uniform and he was holding my

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Speaker 3: hand and that for me was so reassuring. For that

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Speaker 3: five minutes. There was police from Victoria Police and the

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Speaker 3: Australian Federal Police in the room. Because we've always spoken

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Speaker 3: about in joint Cauniterrorism Team, it's not about our badge,

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Speaker 3: it's not about our organizations, it's about that team. We

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Speaker 3: had both organizations in that room with me. Was another

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Speaker 3: heartfelt moment. My wife came into the room, We hugged

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Speaker 3: and she had some tears. Spoke to mum and dad

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Speaker 3: on the phone. They live in Country Victoria. They'd been

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Speaker 3: listening to this incident on the radio.

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Speaker 2: There was some.

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Speaker 3: Wildly inaccurate reporting about One of the stations reported that

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Speaker 3: potentially Newman had been shot while running into the police

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Speaker 3: station which for Mum and Dad they're thinking, well, he's

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Speaker 3: been shot in the back and the implications that that

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Speaker 3: would bring with it. So there was that. There was

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Speaker 3: another report a couple of days later that I had

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Speaker 3: shot Newman at point blank range in the head while

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Speaker 3: he's on top of Matt, stabbing him. Obviously inaccurate as well,

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Speaker 3: and makes my professionalism brings that into account as what

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Speaker 3: my response is. In the ambulance, the AMBO says to me,

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Speaker 3: have you got any more stab wounds anywhere else? Which

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Speaker 3: made my heart beat a little bit faster, thinking shit,

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Speaker 3: I actually don't know. So I lift up my shirt

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Speaker 3: and thankfully there was no wounds there. And I told

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Speaker 3: the MBO that I'm a positive, which freaked him out

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Speaker 3: and I said no, no, that's my blood type, thinking that

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Speaker 3: I might need blood to replace it. So taken, Dan

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Speaker 3: Andong had two nights in there. My initial reactions while

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Speaker 3: I was in the bed, the two things I wanted

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Speaker 3: to know was what did the public think about my

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Speaker 3: actions out here tonight? And what does Victoria Police think

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Speaker 3: about my actions? Those were the two things closest to

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Speaker 3: my mind. My phone was going off with messages from

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Speaker 3: colleagues of support, which, as you know, Gary and policing,

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Speaker 3: is very rare until your retirement date that you actually

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Speaker 3: get validation of how much valued you are and appreciated.

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Speaker 3: So my phone was receiving a lot of messages, so

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Speaker 3: I'd be in between having doctors come in reading some messages,

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Speaker 3: crying away at such lovely messages the next day, and

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Speaker 3: myself and Matt obviously couldn't speak to each other until

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Speaker 3: we've given our statements to homicide. So I wanted to

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Speaker 3: know how Matt was going. I'm sure he wanted to

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Speaker 3: know how I was going as well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, on that, And this is where a couple of

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Speaker 1: things that you've been through this incident. I'm sitting here

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Speaker 1: watching you guys talk about it, and your concern is

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Speaker 1: not thankfully I survived or Matt survived, I do the

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Speaker 1: right thing? How will people? And it's just ingrained into police,

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Speaker 1: isn't it. You feel like you're going to be to

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Speaker 1: blame and the fact you too, and I always struggled

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Speaker 1: with this when I was leading critical investigations. You two

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Speaker 1: have been caught up in this incident that clearly you

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Speaker 1: want to talk about for emotional support. You've just been

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Speaker 1: through something and you have to the people separated and

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Speaker 1: that's hard, isn't it. And it makes you feel like

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Speaker 1: you've done something wrong why we've been separated, And that's

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Speaker 1: in police shootings. That's just the nature of the way

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Speaker 1: they're investigating and saying that. I think we all sit

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Speaker 1: here and we understand the need for accountability. It has

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Speaker 1: to be, but it's just another layer of the things

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Speaker 1: that you go through when you've been involved in a

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Speaker 1: critical incident like this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you're right.

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Speaker 3: So as well as having my clothing sees for blessed

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Speaker 3: testing in regard to it with gunshot residue, it was

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Speaker 3: also one of my detective sergeant Tony Mars. He'd started

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Speaker 3: leave the day before. He came in and stayed at

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Speaker 3: my hospital for two days, didn't go home, and he'd

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Speaker 3: come into my room and all I wanted to do

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Speaker 3: was to talk about it, and of course he would

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Speaker 3: have had to have recorded in his own book anything

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Speaker 3: I said, so he had to get me onto another

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Speaker 3: topic straight away, which all I wanted to do was

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Speaker 3: to be able to speak to police Welfare, which I did.

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Speaker 3: The Chief commissioner at the time, Ken Leigh, came to

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Speaker 3: see me. The AFP Commissioner at the time was Andrew Colvin,

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Speaker 3: and the commissioner came into my room and spoke to

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Speaker 3: me one on one and I remember saying to him, Boss,

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Speaker 3: you know I'm not one of yours, and he goes,

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Speaker 3: I know that, but you'll be treated like one. And

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Speaker 3: so whatever Victoria Police offered to me, the AFP also

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Speaker 3: offered the exact same thing, whether it was chaplaincy wellbeing services,

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Speaker 3: so really well supported by both organizations in the immediate aftermath.

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Speaker 3: And then seeing after I gave me a statement, I

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Speaker 3: was checking the media of the time and Luke Cornelius,

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Speaker 3: the Assistant Commissioner at the time of Southern Metro Region

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Speaker 3: where it occurred, he was there saying it's clearly obvious

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Speaker 3: that two members have been attacked and they've defended themselves

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Speaker 3: self defense rah rah, which is to be essentially.

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Speaker 2: Cleared on the night.

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Speaker 3: Is very unusual in regard to that.

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Speaker 1: Is definitely normally police won't come out and make a comments.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely so again that provided me with some comfort to

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Speaker 3: know that I'd had the immediate backing from Victoria Police command.

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Speaker 3: But also the next morning there were some flowers that

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Speaker 3: had turned up in my hospital bed from a member

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Speaker 3: of the public and with some really nice sentiments. So

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Speaker 3: the two questions that were burning in my brain about

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Speaker 3: how does the public feel, well it was answered with

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Speaker 3: the flowers, And how does Victoria police feel? That was

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Speaker 3: answered with a press conference.

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Speaker 1: Matt, how long were you in the hospital for your recovery?

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Speaker 4: I was in there for a week, got out on

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Speaker 4: I think the Monday, and gave my statement I think

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Speaker 4: on the Saturday, which was actually AFL Grand Final Day.

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Speaker 1: And then does anyone care because you're a paramount supported

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Speaker 1: like you made them come and get a statement on

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Speaker 1: AFL Grand Final Day.

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Speaker 4: Them, Yeah, maybe it was actually morning. So but the

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Speaker 4: funny thing actually was that Professor Mark Fitzgerald, who's in

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Speaker 4: charge of the sort of the trauma area of the

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Speaker 4: Alfred and very highly respected. I had a great deal

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Speaker 4: to do with him. He would come and check on

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Speaker 4: me and and and this sort of thing. And he said, oh,

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Speaker 4: you know what your plans for you know, what do

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Speaker 4: you want to do on Grand Final Day? And I said, well,

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Speaker 4: I got this crappy TV up here and whatever. Anyway,

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Speaker 4: so Grand Final morning, a you know, a Sony Bravia

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Speaker 4: TV comes in into the room and gets set up

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Speaker 4: and you know, because the family were coming in and

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Speaker 4: we were going to watch that we were going to

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Speaker 4: watch the Grand Final that afternoon, you know, just as

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Speaker 4: you know, you know, sort of a bit of a

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Speaker 4: get together. And yeah, but that morning I gave my

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Speaker 4: statement and then Nile and his family came in and

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Speaker 4: I my mum and dad were there, and you know,

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Speaker 4: they'd come down from New South Wales and and I

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Speaker 4: remember Nile coming into the room and like we said,

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Speaker 4: we hadn't spoken, and and and I think Dad shook

355
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Speaker 4: Nile's hand, and Mom gave my hug and then they

356
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Speaker 4: Mum said comments, and so they all sort of went out,

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Speaker 4: and I just remember Noel and I had just given

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Speaker 4: each other a massive hug, and you know that's I

359
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Speaker 4: guess it was really reassuring that you know, we had

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Speaker 4: then we sort of had that now well we've had

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Speaker 4: that bond. And you know it's also I say, you know,

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Speaker 4: we're sort of half blood brothers because he got stabbed

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Speaker 4: in the arm and I got so I got some

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Speaker 4: of his blood, but.

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Speaker 2: He never got any of mine. So so.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, that that morning was you know, it was

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Speaker 4: really nice for I think my parents to meet Nile

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Speaker 4: and his family. And and just you know, put put

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Speaker 4: name to face and actually meet you know, the person

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Speaker 4: who you know, you know you saved my life. During

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Speaker 4: that week I sort of go back a bit. I

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Speaker 4: was having nightmares or not nightmares. I was replaying the

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Speaker 4: attack over and over and over while I slept, and

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Speaker 4: it was like a video just going over and over

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Speaker 4: and over.

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Speaker 2: And the Alfred.

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Speaker 4: PS psychiatrist came in and was speaking to me about,

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Speaker 4: you know, how I was going and whatever. I said, oh, look,

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Speaker 4: this is happening. And he said, have you given a statement?

380
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Speaker 4: And I said no, no, that's happening on Saturday. And

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Speaker 4: he said, well, I think after you've given your statement,

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Speaker 4: you won't you won't be dreaming about this.

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Speaker 2: And I thought that's a crock.

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Speaker 4: Anyway, did a statement, what's the footy, you know on Saturday?

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Speaker 4: And then after that it's the dreams stopped.

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Speaker 2: So it was that I guess the.

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Speaker 4: Concern of am I going to get this right in

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Speaker 4: my you know, I'm going to say something wrong that's

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Speaker 4: going to.

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Speaker 1: I would imagine your second guessing yourself too. Should have

391
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Speaker 1: we done? And that's that's the unfair part. We've not

392
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Speaker 1: the unfair part. And I keep clarifying that we've got

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Speaker 1: to be accountable. But the questions are, well, should have

394
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Speaker 1: you gone out more tactical? Should have you done this?

395
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Speaker 1: Should have you done that? And there's a lot of

396
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Speaker 1: naysayers in there that trying to poke holes in everything

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Speaker 1: that you've done, and you would know that someone's died,

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Speaker 1: you're going to go for a coronial inquest. We'll get

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Speaker 1: on to that, but I just see when you talking

400
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Speaker 1: about it like, it digs up still the raw emotions

401
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:07,119
Speaker 1: and we're talking ten years ago. No, how does it

402
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Speaker 1: feel you sitting here with Matt saying you've saved his life?

403
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Speaker 2: Yeah?

404
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,919
Speaker 3: Look, this is always the emotional part of when we

405
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Speaker 3: speak around it, that hospital meeting, hearing those words. I've

406
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Speaker 3: heard it from Matt's dad before, thanks for saving them,

407
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Speaker 3: my boy.

408
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Speaker 2: I've heard it from one of Matt's best mates.

409
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Speaker 3: It gets me every time because it's a responsibility that

410
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Speaker 3: once you're a police officer and you're out on a job,

411
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Speaker 3: you will do anything to save your own colleagues life,

412
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Speaker 3: irrespective of how long you've worked with them for it.

413
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Speaker 3: Good has to beat evil every single day in regard

414
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Speaker 3: to it. So there's a lot of phrases within policing

415
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Speaker 3: and labels that have put on people. But to have

416
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Speaker 3: a comment like that that I've saved someone's life is

417
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Speaker 3: words can't describe it. But I also throw back that

418
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Speaker 3: Matt saved my life life too is in saying those words.

419
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Speaker 3: Knife gave me the time and the opportunity to do

420
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Speaker 3: what I needed to do and that of course absorbed

421
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Speaker 3: a ferocious attack and we're only talking seconds, but that

422
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 3: was enough for me to be able to then save

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Speaker 3: his life by him taking on hater hand on hand.

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Speaker 1: Essentially, it's heavy, guys, but you know when the when

425
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Speaker 1: the chips were down, you both did what you had

426
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Speaker 1: to do. So yeah, like full credit to well, always

427
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Speaker 1: think how are you going to react in the situation

428
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Speaker 1: If you had that and you'd like to think I'm

429
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Speaker 1: going to do this and going to do that, you

430
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Speaker 1: don't know until it happens, and you did. You both

431
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Speaker 1: did your duties.

432
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Speaker 4: Yeah, and you don't know how you're going to react either,

433
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Speaker 4: Like you know, you do your training and you think, oh, yeah,

434
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Speaker 4: if something happened, I would just do this, this and this.

435
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 4: You know, you don't know how your your body is

436
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,879
Speaker 4: going to naturally react, like you know, you know the

437
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 4: fine motor skills and in everything like that. And I think,

438
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:07,520
Speaker 4: you know, you know all the reporting, you know, the

439
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:10,439
Speaker 4: CCTV foot he shows us walking out and then me

440
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:14,040
Speaker 4: coming back in, and that was seventy five seconds, But

441
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,280
Speaker 4: the attack itself was like twelve seconds.

442
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:18,359
Speaker 2: From the time that I.

443
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 4: Was stabbed to the time that hater was shot, it

444
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,919
Speaker 4: felt so much longer, and time slowed down, you know,

445
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 4: And we were talking about it and describing it before,

446
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 4: you know, probably over fifteen to twenty minutes, however long

447
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 4: it took to describe. But from that, like I said,

448
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 4: you know that twelve seconds, it's two breaths, Yeah, you know,

449
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:40,680
Speaker 4: two deep breaths, and you're you're that's it.

450
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,919
Speaker 1: It's almost things yet have occurred.

451
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 4: And that you know that twelve seconds, And I think

452
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:52,159
Speaker 4: the coroner said it in his findings. You know, our

453
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 4: lives have been changed immeasurably, and from that small amount

454
00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 4: of time it would certainly have.

455
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 2: That's dramatic.

456
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:04,159
Speaker 1: There's another thing I wanted to raise, and I'm not

457
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:08,359
Speaker 1: raising it because I'm raising it because I was reading

458
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 1: up about this incident and the comments that were attributed

459
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,479
Speaker 1: to you guys that you've also got empathy for the family.

460
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:19,680
Speaker 1: Haters family, Yeah, it's you did what you had to do.

461
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,359
Speaker 1: It was your duty. And I would also say you

462
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 1: probably if it wasn't you too, it could have been

463
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,400
Speaker 1: someone else in the situation might have been worse. So, yeah,

464
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 1: you did what you had to do. But you're not

465
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:32,200
Speaker 1: sitting here full of bravado.

466
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 2: Game.

467
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,880
Speaker 1: Well, this was a great day of policing. You've got

468
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:37,680
Speaker 1: thoughts for the family.

469
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:38,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely.

470
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:42,439
Speaker 4: You know, they, like we said, lovely family, invited us

471
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:46,439
Speaker 4: into their home, spoke freely and openly about about newman

472
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 4: and their concerns about him. And you could see that

473
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,639
Speaker 4: the love that they had for him just through you know,

474
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 4: through those concerns and how much they cared, like it

475
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 4: wasn't this. It wasn't you know, for one of a

476
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:03,119
Speaker 4: better term, a typical crook family where everyone was against

477
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 4: the police.

478
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 2: They were pro police, they.

479
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:09,119
Speaker 4: Were they were wanting their son, they wanted him not

480
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:11,879
Speaker 4: to be radicalized, they wanted him to continue on.

481
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 2: And you know.

482
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 4: When they're and and I think I don't think a

483
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:20,359
Speaker 4: lot of people sort of give them that much thought,

484
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,400
Speaker 4: but you know, they are victims in this as much

485
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:27,680
Speaker 4: as as anyone else is. And you know they've lost

486
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,199
Speaker 4: you know, while we're fortunate to be to be alive

487
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 4: and to be with our families and not saying that

488
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 4: we haven't had our psychological issues, but you know where

489
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,119
Speaker 4: you know, we're here now and you know we've we

490
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,119
Speaker 4: can hold our loved ones and be with them. You know,

491
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:46,959
Speaker 4: they lost a son that night, and it wasn't anything

492
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 4: that they did. It was just the process that that

493
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:56,199
Speaker 4: radicalization process that that newman went through, and you know,

494
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:56,680
Speaker 4: and they.

495
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 2: They paid, They paid the price.

496
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:04,920
Speaker 3: Also feel yeah, absolutely, Garry, I look at this one

497
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 3: and go, it would have been nice if there was

498
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:09,919
Speaker 3: a different outcome and they could visit their son in

499
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 3: prison every weekend or whatever it is like others get

500
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:16,719
Speaker 3: to do. But as Matt said, them for their family

501
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:21,159
Speaker 3: unit that broke up that night, the father, we know,

502
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 3: he inquired about our welfare and hope hopefully we were recovering.

503
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:30,119
Speaker 3: And yeah, it does exactly right. And I've said it previously.

504
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 3: I'd love to meet the family one day in regard

505
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 3: to it and provide any context or clarity that they

506
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 3: needed to because with the cranial processes, you know, it's

507
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 3: very much each organization has their own ideas on how

508
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 3: it transpired, and they don't want negative findings held against them,

509
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 3: so sometimes, well all the time, it's quite emotionally overwhelming.

510
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 3: So if we could sit with them and fill them

511
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 3: in with any details they needed to know, that'd be

512
00:28:59,360 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 3: great as well.

513
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:02,719
Speaker 1: The fact that they put the offer out whether they

514
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 1: take the offer up is a choice for themselves, but

515
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 1: it says a lot about you guys that you would

516
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 1: sit down and have a chat. It frustrates me the

517
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 1: people that radicalize these impressionable young men. It's a shame

518
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 1: we can't keep go after the people that do that

519
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 1: because the impact is at eighteen, you don't know what

520
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 1: the world's about, do you, And you have someone putting

521
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 1: thoughts in your head and the young bloke that Curtis

522
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 1: Chain shooting up there at New South Wales police headquarters. Yeah,

523
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 1: it's a terrible thing. How long after this incident did

524
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 1: the cranial inquest take place? Because there's pressure there because

525
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 1: you've got your statements get presented to the coroner. Corona

526
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 1: makes a determination into the manner and cause of death

527
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 1: and recommendations if there's police practices and procedures could have

528
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 1: been done something differently, So again, you're under scrutiny there.

529
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 1: It's not a case of you're going in there and

530
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 1: everyone's clapping you. You're going in there, could have you

531
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 1: done this? And a lot of naysayers, and you bring

532
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 1: in the legal intellects that come in and go, well,

533
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 1: why didn't you do this and why didn't you do that?

534
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 1: How was your experience in the coroner's inquest.

535
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're right with that, Gary, So with the cranial

536
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 3: because it was terrorism, the current wanted to hear this

537
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 3: matter as soon as possible, So I think it was

538
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 3: around eighteen months after the shooting. I think it was

539
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 3: around April sixteen March six sixteen, so and again we've

540
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 3: spoken about accountability transparency, So I looked at all my

541
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 3: training within Victoria Police that led me to that point

542
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 3: to make sure I didn't have any blind spots that

543
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 3: I knew how I was communicating with a youth, for example,

544
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 3: what my strategies were, investigation plans. So there was a

545
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 3: lot of fanatical work to make sure I could present

546
00:30:55,200 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 3: the best evidence I could for the coronial because it

547
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 3: is about discovering the truth of the death and how

548
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 3: do we prevent these occurring? Now, terrorism in twenty fourteen

549
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 3: with Matt spoke of we were previously investigating foreign fighters

550
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 3: going offshore and now we were seeing homegrown terrorism where

551
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 3: targets in Australia were being attacked. So this really needed

552
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 3: to look at radicalization, how it was occurring, what can

553
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 3: be done to stop that or slow that. So it

554
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 3: took took that March twenty sixteen period. Now at that

555
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 3: stage one of my very good mates, Steve Cooper and

556
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 3: inspector with Victoria Police, we took up running together because

557
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 3: I thought, I don't want to be not in a

558
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 3: position to present the best evidence I can. If my

559
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 3: brain says to me stop, then I'm going to fall over.

560
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 3: I lose, my family lose, policing losers, my mates lose.

561
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:00,120
Speaker 3: So I'm going to run. I'm going to try in

562
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 3: my brain that it will only stop when I say

563
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 3: to So we started running, lost a lot of weight

564
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 3: and the mental strength that came from running was really

565
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 3: important for the cranial process. Is if there was anything negative,

566
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 3: I could then go for a run and get the

567
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 3: endorphins naturally from that. Compared to having a chocolate bar

568
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 3: or a.

569
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 2: Beer or whatever.

570
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 1: It is a huge benefit.

571
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 3: Absolutely so form Matt gave evidence before me, and then

572
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 3: I came into the box on a Thursday night at

573
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 3: about three pm, got my statement out. I read that

574
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 3: that was a real emotional time. I'd read my statement

575
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 3: hundreds of times with no emotion, and then when I

576
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 3: physically read it to the court there was a couple

577
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 3: of times I broke down because it was just so

578
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 3: the enormity of the situation is a cronile, there's a

579
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 3: family of a deceased.

580
00:32:57,960 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 1: There person that you've shot and.

581
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 3: Killed exactly right, and the expectations of the Commonwealth and

582
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 3: the state in regard to our training and evidence to

583
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 3: be given. So it got adjourned at four pm. So

584
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 3: I'd given our evidence for one hour and then had

585
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 3: to go home that night and sleep and then prepare

586
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 3: for the next day. And I felt like a night

587
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 3: watchman in cricket. Essentially had been bombarded for an hour

588
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 3: and then had to sleep on it overnight until coming

589
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 3: back in the evidence in itself, having given evidence in

590
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 3: all the courts, it was okay, but it was a

591
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 3: relief to be able to finally stand down from the

592
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 3: box knowing that everything we'd experience had been spoken of

593
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 3: and given to the courts for them to make determinations. Absolutely,

594
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 3: but that really is the key to what we do.

595
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that your experience giving evidence.

596
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a bit.

597
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 4: It was leading up to it. I was, you know,

598
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:00,960
Speaker 4: just in my own head, you know, about how is

599
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 4: this going to go? And I think the psychological pressure

600
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:12,040
Speaker 4: of what was coming up in relation to the inquest

601
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 4: really really really got to me. And I was probably

602
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 4: the worst person in the world a bit well, I know,

603
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 4: I was probably one of the worst persons in the

604
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 4: world to be around. I was just angry, and you know,

605
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 4: I'd yell at the I yell at my kids just

606
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:31,080
Speaker 4: you know, for them breathing wrong and this sort of thing.

607
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 4: So I was sort of this is sort of this

608
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 4: January February, you know, it's leading up you know, reading

609
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 4: my statement, talking to lawyers, you know, thinking about what's

610
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:44,359
Speaker 4: going to happen at the inquest, how are they going

611
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 4: to what are they going to ask, you know, how

612
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 4: they going to portray me and all this sort of stuff,

613
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 4: and you know, and to the point where my marriage

614
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 4: ended around the same sort of time. Yeah, and look

615
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 4: at it, it was just it wasn't a planned thing

616
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 4: to happen at that time. But you know, you know, anyway,

617
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:09,279
Speaker 4: at my marriage ended, you know, and I was just

618
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 4: I was so that that had happened, and going into

619
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 4: the inquest, so it was all this, you know, It

620
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,360
Speaker 4: was just I was just in my o head and

621
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 4: you know. And then when I when I gave evidence,

622
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 4: you know, we did it remotely because there was a

623
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 4: bit of security of some security concerns about it, and

624
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:31,880
Speaker 4: so that was a bit sort of surreal, and only

625
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 4: the I think the coroner and the conner's assistant could

626
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 4: see us on the on the video screen and you know,

627
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 4: and so I guess in a sense it it was

628
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 4: a bit of a relief to be remote, not being

629
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 4: in the room and just having everyone staring at you

630
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 4: and you know and looking around and seeing the family,

631
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,240
Speaker 4: so you're a bit more removed. So that was probably

632
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 4: not a bad thing, but it was still pretty intense.

633
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 4: And I remember that around that time when I was,

634
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 4: like I said, I was just angry, angry, angry, angry person.

635
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 4: And I said, before you know, my youngest son was

636
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 4: in the hospital room next to my oldests and Make's wife,

637
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:21,480
Speaker 4: and he was just emotionless, and I said, that's a

638
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 4: bit weird. It was a couple of months later that

639
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:26,759
Speaker 4: I spoke to him and I said, I think he

640
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 4: was probably so fourteen.

641
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:31,439
Speaker 2: He was probably twelve. He was twelve at the time

642
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 2: of the attack.

643
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:35,880
Speaker 4: And I said, you know what, I remember being in

644
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 4: the emergency room and you were standing there just emotionless,

645
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 4: and he said, I didn't want to cry because I

646
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 4: didn't want to upset you. That sort of stuck with me,

647
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 4: and I went, how does a twelve year old, you know,

648
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 4: come to this? And then leading up to the inquest,

649
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,239
Speaker 4: when I was angry and you know, this was sort

650
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:56,919
Speaker 4: of happening, and I walk in one day and there's

651
00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 4: a note, a little post it note on the kitchen

652
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 4: bench with a paperweight, and it was it said, did Dad,

653
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 4: no matter how angry you get, I will still love

654
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:11,279
Speaker 4: you and signed my son and you know, and yeah,

655
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 4: and you think, you know, what is he? What have

656
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 4: I done to you know, to all you people? And

657
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:25,239
Speaker 4: it took me quite a long time to realize that they,

658
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 4: my family lived the attack with me. Other than the

659
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 4: attack itself, they were in the hospital room. Until now

660
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:38,719
Speaker 4: they they they seem ups and downs, and I mean

661
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 4: there's less downs now, but you know, during that initial

662
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:48,439
Speaker 4: time and it was really hard on them. And I think, yeah,

663
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:51,319
Speaker 4: there was, and you know, we'll probably talk about what

664
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 4: happened later on, but it was. Yeah, the inquest was

665
00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 4: was pretty pretty tough mentally for me, and and then

666
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:03,879
Speaker 4: leading into the you know, to the findings, it was.

667
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:10,320
Speaker 1: Still yeah, still had been in policing long enough to

668
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,360
Speaker 1: know you can't really anticipate how the court's going to

669
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 1: find that. Look, you look at one thing and it

670
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 1: will come out come out different. I'm sorry you've gone

671
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:22,400
Speaker 1: through that. That's that's heavy stuff. And with your kids

672
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,319
Speaker 1: and you don't want to bring you bring your work

673
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 1: home and you think you're protecting them and really haven't

674
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:32,239
Speaker 1: protected them at all. Over there exposed to a lot

675
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 1: of it. But yeah, I'm sorry, Sorry you went through that.

676
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:40,239
Speaker 1: And just I think what's coming across speaking to you

677
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 1: two guys is that you survived the incident. It should

678
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:45,839
Speaker 1: be on the movies, it's high fives and everyone goes

679
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 1: out for a drink and yeah, look we've done our job.

680
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:51,520
Speaker 1: But it doesn't play out that way in real life,

681
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 1: does it. The emotional impact that they had on relationships

682
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:56,920
Speaker 1: for you and your your your life, it's.

683
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I concur with Matt. It's being in the center

684
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:04,759
Speaker 3: of that incident. It was like being the eye of

685
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:07,879
Speaker 3: a storm. Essentially. It's calm enough for us while we're

686
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 3: in it, but the impact is being felt for our

687
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 3: immediate families and the broader policing communities as well, and

688
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:18,920
Speaker 3: the clubs and associations were involved in so there's a

689
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 3: significant impact. And to this day I'll still get people

690
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 3: come up to me and say, oh, by the way,

691
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 3: I did such and such in your in your incident,

692
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 3: and those stories come out slowly in regard to it.

693
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:35,800
Speaker 3: After the cronial, myself and Matten, some of our colleagues

694
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 3: from Victoria Police and the Federal Police. On the Sunday

695
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:43,719
Speaker 3: of the cronile finishing, we running the Herald Sun Run

696
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:46,879
Speaker 3: for the kids, sixteen kilometers and we managed to get

697
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:50,719
Speaker 3: that done. And after that I felt the need to

698
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 3: run stopped as I'd given them evidence. My brain was

699
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 3: trained to do that. But after the cranial had finished,

700
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 3: I remember speaking to Joe Garzis, he was the Victoria

701
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:06,759
Speaker 3: Police psychologist in the peer Support unit, and he goes, well,

702
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:11,040
Speaker 3: now that the cranials ended, and yes, they'll be finding

703
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:13,200
Speaker 3: sound the track, but you'll feel like a part of

704
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 3: you is gone, is you're no longer focusing on that incident,

705
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 3: so you need to find something else to focus on.

706
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:22,840
Speaker 3: So for me, when you go through a critical incident,

707
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:25,760
Speaker 3: it brings you to the crossroads of your well being.

708
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:28,960
Speaker 3: What direction do I take from here? And for me,

709
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 3: I thought, well, if I can be promoted, I'll put

710
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:36,719
Speaker 3: my heart and soul into policing even more because of

711
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:39,520
Speaker 3: the awakening of a police shooting. I want to make

712
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 3: sure that my police colleagues are safe, that they're trained appropriately,

713
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:48,360
Speaker 3: that they're briefed according to the risk, the risk factors

714
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:52,000
Speaker 3: are known and disseminated. So for me, this created real

715
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:55,200
Speaker 3: opportunity to throw back in and give back to policing

716
00:40:55,239 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 3: of the experience. So I spoke within policing to peer support,

717
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 3: to the people about the benefits of our training on

718
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:07,360
Speaker 3: that night and one word saved our lives the A

719
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:12,799
Speaker 3: and Z CANA Terrorism tach Commander's course. So giving back

720
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:18,359
Speaker 3: in all these different units within policing to say that yes,

721
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 3: we can go through these incidences, we can survive, we

722
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:26,359
Speaker 3: can grow with it. But by working so hard and

723
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:32,360
Speaker 3: being so driven in my work, that leads to burn

724
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 3: out and everything else that comes with that, where you're

725
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 3: just so focused that you lose sight of the glimmers

726
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:43,880
Speaker 3: of the sunshine, happy moments with family because you're just

727
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:46,319
Speaker 3: so focused and driven about.

728
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:46,799
Speaker 2: What your job is.

729
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:51,680
Speaker 3: So for me, I certainly struggle to then go back

730
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 3: into normal uniform policing where you're seeing gaps. You're seeing

731
00:41:57,560 --> 00:41:59,919
Speaker 3: gaps where there needs to be something put in place,

732
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:03,239
Speaker 3: and the poor police members I was working with were

733
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:06,480
Speaker 3: oblivious to those gaps. So for me, I felt the

734
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:10,319
Speaker 3: obligation too. It's my job to make sure they're appropriately

735
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:15,320
Speaker 3: trained and protected. So in essence, that is a thankless

736
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 3: task and it's one that we're probably never ever going

737
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:20,319
Speaker 3: to win. So I'd bit no off a challenge that

738
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 3: I had no chance of absolutely, and as a result,

739
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 3: that's exactly what it did. From a professional perspective, that's

740
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:33,719
Speaker 3: destroyed me. By having minimal people within policing checking in

741
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:36,000
Speaker 3: on me, I was the one doing the checking in

742
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:39,360
Speaker 3: on everyone else, making sure right they're okay, with no

743
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:42,360
Speaker 3: one actually saying, hey, are you pretty strong and resilient?

744
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 3: How are you going? Those conversations just weren't happening in policing,

745
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 3: And unfortunately, nowadays I still don't think they're occurring. Hence

746
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:54,880
Speaker 3: so many injuries that are occurring. And in July this year,

747
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:58,319
Speaker 3: a couple of my very good policing mates who have

748
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 3: been involved in a high profile shit, they've been l

749
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 3: hell three tired themselves. So there's some issues there around

750
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:08,240
Speaker 3: how we support our members that have been through these credits.

751
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 1: I've got the sense in speaking to your militant's probably

752
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 1: a too strong a word, but you had that strong

753
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 1: take on looking after members and after what you've been through,

754
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 1: you've got a right to offer opinions on that. Then

755
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 1: I can understand where your channeled your energies in there.

756
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:28,320
Speaker 1: But if you fight town hall it can be pretty

757
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:31,880
Speaker 1: sold destroying too. Yeah, if you take it on. I

758
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 1: neglected to ask what was the findings from the corona

759
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 1: when the coroner's findings were handed down.

760
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 2: I think it was like fifty six pages of.

761
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:45,279
Speaker 4: Findings and believe it or not, not one recommendation.

762
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:46,800
Speaker 2: Yeah.

763
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:51,879
Speaker 4: Yeah, So, like he said, you know, so i'd come

764
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:54,719
Speaker 4: back from p ANDNG I was posted over to Port

765
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:58,000
Speaker 4: Moresby with the AFP and I flew back for the

766
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 4: handing down of the findings and we were in the

767
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:04,360
Speaker 4: AFP headquarters in La Trobe Street at the time, watching

768
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:06,840
Speaker 4: it remotely, and there was a few of us in there,

769
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 4: people we'd worked with, and my dad had actually flown

770
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:16,759
Speaker 4: down and you know, to be there with me, and

771
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 4: we were sitting there and you know, he read through,

772
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:23,920
Speaker 4: you know, and then he said, you know, and you know,

773
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:26,399
Speaker 4: because you know, like you said before, it's in your head.

774
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 4: Have they sat down for the last This was July

775
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 4: or June or July twenty seventeen, so this is almost

776
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 4: three years later. So he's sitting there. I'm sitting there thinking, Okay,

777
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 4: they've had almost three years to go through this shooting

778
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 4: with a fine tooth comb. Are they going to pick

779
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:47,400
Speaker 4: something out and go you did wrong? You're going to

780
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:53,600
Speaker 4: be charged. So knowing like it was in my heart

781
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:56,400
Speaker 4: on you we had done nothing wrong, but in my

782
00:44:56,480 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 4: head on overthinking stuff and you know, just you know,

783
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:03,759
Speaker 4: because you hear of you hear of it often that

784
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:06,400
Speaker 4: the cheral will make some sort of finding about the

785
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:09,800
Speaker 4: police actions and whatever. And I was I remember sitting

786
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:13,960
Speaker 4: there and we're in the room and he said, I

787
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 4: pretty sort of paraphrasing, but you know, I can't find

788
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:25,319
Speaker 4: any issues with the police risk assessment that day. You know,

789
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 4: I'd like to wish my condolences to the family and

790
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 4: especially Officers A and B, whose lives have been changed immeasurably.

791
00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 4: And then he and he, he said that there was

792
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:42,920
Speaker 4: nothing that he could find that we were in the clear.

793
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:44,279
Speaker 2: I guess for what we did.

794
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:47,400
Speaker 4: And and when he said that, I just turned him

795
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 4: my dad and hugged him and cried. It was it

796
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:57,760
Speaker 4: was a massive moment and a huge sense of relief

797
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:02,560
Speaker 4: that we didn't do anything wrong.

798
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:08,360
Speaker 1: Again, I get back to the fact that the way

799
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 1: that you've explained it and every step that you take

800
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:14,799
Speaker 1: seemed to me, from a police officer's point of view,

801
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 1: perfectly reasonable. And you guys would have known that too,

802
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 1: your experienced police officers at the time. But you go

803
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 1: through all this trauma thinking that there's going to be

804
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:27,640
Speaker 1: criticism of you in regardless of your actions, or you

805
00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:29,600
Speaker 1: shouldn't have done this, or why didn't you do that?

806
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 1: And I don't know why we've got that mindset in

807
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:34,319
Speaker 1: the police, but I understand where you're coming from. And

808
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:37,759
Speaker 1: any time I've been involved in incidence, you're thinking, what

809
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 1: are they going to find we've done something wrong? It

810
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:42,719
Speaker 1: seems to be a cultural cultural thing.

811
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:47,879
Speaker 3: Certainly with ours, there was some potential criticism about the

812
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:51,719
Speaker 3: location of the meat, was appropriate, was there enough lighting?

813
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:54,680
Speaker 3: As you know, within policing we work in all sorts

814
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:56,279
Speaker 3: of conditions in all those sees.

815
00:46:56,920 --> 00:46:59,160
Speaker 1: Let's zero on next, because that would be the type

816
00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:02,200
Speaker 1: of things that would really give me the shits with it.

817
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 1: You've done really well to actually get him to a meeting,

818
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 1: Like you could have spent two weeks looking for him,

819
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:12,760
Speaker 1: but you've managed to taking controlled risks, make the phone

820
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:15,759
Speaker 1: call there, take it, and then if people sit back

821
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:18,799
Speaker 1: not involved in it, go well, why didn't you do this?

822
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:21,040
Speaker 1: Or why couldn't you have waited till the next day? Well,

823
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:23,919
Speaker 1: the next day he might have turned up little things

824
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 1: like that, the other things that irk me when you

825
00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:32,080
Speaker 1: get scrutinized on jobs. Absolutely, but you're making operational decisions

826
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:35,239
Speaker 1: in real time, like that phone call. Once he picked

827
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 1: up the phone, you had five minutes basically to think, Okay,

828
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:42,160
Speaker 1: how are we going to do this, whereas someone reviewing it,

829
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:44,600
Speaker 1: as you said, could have three months to review it

830
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:46,800
Speaker 1: and go, well, perhaps they should have made the appointment

831
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:47,640
Speaker 1: for a later time.

832
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:52,560
Speaker 4: You Yeah, and highsight's a wonderful thing in that I

833
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:55,840
Speaker 4: know that there were evidence was given by a senior

834
00:47:55,880 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 4: police that if all the information had been known and

835
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:03,680
Speaker 4: available to us, we wouldn't have met with him. So

836
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 4: that was where I was talking about that internet, that

837
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:09,960
Speaker 4: lack of intelligence flow from AZO to the AFP and

838
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:14,920
Speaker 4: Big Pole, and you know it's and you sort of

839
00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:20,839
Speaker 4: look at that and go talking about the inquest, you know,

840
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:25,200
Speaker 4: leading up to it and after the attack, And I

841
00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 4: was self doubting myself. You know, why why didn't I

842
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:30,640
Speaker 4: control the going? Why didn't I try and control the knife?

843
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:32,960
Speaker 4: Why didn't I Why didn't I do this? Why didn't

844
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 4: I do that? Why did I?

845
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 2: Say? Yeah?

846
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 4: Like, you're right, you just you're self critiquing yourself, but

847
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 4: in a negative way, so it putting more pressure on yourself,

848
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:44,360
Speaker 4: more pressure and more pressure.

849
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:50,120
Speaker 1: It's now ten years after the incident. How are you

850
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 1: guys now in your quiet moments? Is it's still something

851
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 1: that lives with you every day?

852
00:48:59,000 --> 00:48:59,560
Speaker 2: Yes? And no?

853
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:06,080
Speaker 4: Like the like, I don't think of the the attack

854
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:11,200
Speaker 4: itself every day. I don't think they sort of reminded.

855
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:14,520
Speaker 4: You just look in the mirror, you doing your hair

856
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:16,320
Speaker 4: or whatever, and you see the scar.

857
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:18,040
Speaker 1: I don't know because I don't look in the.

858
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:23,440
Speaker 4: I do it very very very brief or have a

859
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:28,799
Speaker 4: shave or something. But yeah, you just sort of it's there,

860
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:30,759
Speaker 4: like it's a it's a concert minded not that you

861
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:36,160
Speaker 4: think about it all the time, but it's it is,

862
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:41,120
Speaker 4: it is, it is there for me. And but saying that,

863
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:45,000
Speaker 4: you know, like I've you know, I've gone through a

864
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:48,640
Speaker 4: lot of you know, psychological trauma over the last ten

865
00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:52,840
Speaker 4: years in relation to PTSD and you know, suicidal thoughts

866
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:56,400
Speaker 4: and and and those sort of things. But you know,

867
00:49:56,520 --> 00:50:01,560
Speaker 4: now you know with a and I know the term

868
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:04,960
Speaker 4: gets thrown around quite regularly that this post traumatic growth

869
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:10,840
Speaker 4: and I've certainly experienced that, and it's it's changed the

870
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 4: way that I am. I'm not saying, you know, I'm

871
00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:16,360
Speaker 4: not perfect, and you asked my fiance and sure say no, no,

872
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:22,440
Speaker 4: he's not perfect. But without her and you know, your

873
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:26,000
Speaker 4: family being around to support you and and them seeing

874
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:30,400
Speaker 4: them seeing that growth, that's that's probably been one of

875
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:35,400
Speaker 4: the biggest things over the last probably since twenty and eighteen,

876
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:40,760
Speaker 4: so the last you know, eight years, slowly but surely,

877
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:46,399
Speaker 4: and then certainly over the last five years, just being

878
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:51,359
Speaker 4: able to be a better person, and I've said it.

879
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:54,160
Speaker 4: I said it, you know recently. You know, I never

880
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:58,040
Speaker 4: used to tell my kids that I really that I

881
00:50:58,080 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 4: love them, or you know, I speak to my mom

882
00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:01,520
Speaker 4: and dad on the phone and I never say I

883
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:06,839
Speaker 4: love you or my sister or my brother or and

884
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 4: now it's whether my boys want to hear it after

885
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:12,400
Speaker 4: a phone call or you know, saying good night. You know,

886
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:16,000
Speaker 4: it's like, you know, I love you, and and you

887
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:18,600
Speaker 4: get it back most of the time, and you know,

888
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:20,799
Speaker 4: and you say it to your mum and you just

889
00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:28,800
Speaker 4: know that, and my partner and you know, it's something

890
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:35,080
Speaker 4: that it was a terrible situation and a terrible time,

891
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:38,040
Speaker 4: you know, the attack, the inquest and then the findings

892
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:41,680
Speaker 4: and then going through that PTSD and the down and

893
00:51:41,719 --> 00:51:46,480
Speaker 4: the dark and the everything that goes with that. But

894
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:50,120
Speaker 4: you know, I think we've spoken about it, Nola and

895
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:53,720
Speaker 4: I and we wouldn't change. I don't think we would

896
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 4: change being involved in the attack, because without it, it

897
00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:02,040
Speaker 4: wouldn't have made me the person I am today.

898
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:05,400
Speaker 1: I get to the opportunity of speaking to a lot

899
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:07,640
Speaker 1: of people who have been through some serious stuff in

900
00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:11,680
Speaker 1: the vein of what you've been through, and that I think, Yeah,

901
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:15,160
Speaker 1: as you said, life can be fleeingly short. So you're

902
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:18,840
Speaker 1: telling your kids you love them or thinking about things

903
00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:23,319
Speaker 1: and you don't sweat little things as much because yeah,

904
00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:27,080
Speaker 1: because yeah, you realize how tenuous life can be. What

905
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:29,919
Speaker 1: about the impact that it's had on you team?

906
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:33,359
Speaker 3: Unlike Matt, I've got an eleven year old daughter, say,

907
00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:35,759
Speaker 3: I've got no chance of her telling me that she

908
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:39,960
Speaker 3: loves me, So that LEU will occur in another twenty

909
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:40,439
Speaker 3: years time.

910
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:43,239
Speaker 1: We'll have you back in five years time.

911
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:47,759
Speaker 3: And how you went exactly same as Matt. So I

912
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:51,959
Speaker 3: was diagnosed with PTSD and other conditions in twenty twenty one,

913
00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:56,160
Speaker 3: so I'd ignored a lot of symptoms and thinking again,

914
00:52:56,320 --> 00:52:59,880
Speaker 3: we're in policing, we're all struggling from different things that

915
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:05,600
Speaker 3: we see and experience. So for me, actually getting diagnosed

916
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:09,239
Speaker 3: and treatment plans and then support is absolutely key to it.

917
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:12,640
Speaker 3: So one of the things, and it's a pretty simple step.

918
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:18,160
Speaker 3: But my psychologist, Fairly Morgan, she put me onto a

919
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 3: book written by a doctor John Arden, which talks about

920
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:28,960
Speaker 3: the five good steps of mental health, which is sleep, exercise, education, diet,

921
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:31,879
Speaker 3: and social support. Now I don't do all of those

922
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:34,759
Speaker 3: very well. Each day, but it is a task to

923
00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:37,360
Speaker 3: try and tick as many of those off as possible.

924
00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:40,840
Speaker 3: Give your framework absolutely, which I look at it the

925
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:44,520
Speaker 3: acronym of seeds. It's pretty simple. But then having the

926
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:48,080
Speaker 3: time now being ill health retired from policing to actually

927
00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:51,280
Speaker 3: catch up with people that you want to to actually

928
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:55,040
Speaker 3: engage with them in a stress free setting where you're

929
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:58,480
Speaker 3: not making life or death decisions is good for me.

930
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:02,840
Speaker 3: But I agree with Matt there is also growth because

931
00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:07,360
Speaker 3: we've met some exceptional people along the way, other police

932
00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:10,719
Speaker 3: who have been involved in shootings. We're both members of

933
00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:15,080
Speaker 3: the Australian Bravery Association, and there's an incredible group of

934
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:21,080
Speaker 3: people that have been from police, military emergency services and civilians,

935
00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:26,719
Speaker 3: people fighting sharks, people Daryl Tree from South Australia with

936
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:30,640
Speaker 3: a Cross a Valor Award for saving a father and

937
00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:35,440
Speaker 3: son being electrocuted like these are amazing acts of courage

938
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:38,879
Speaker 3: and gallantry that we're proud to be a part of it.

939
00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:43,239
Speaker 3: And with those like minded people there's absolute strength that

940
00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:46,080
Speaker 3: comes from it as well, where we don't sit there

941
00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:49,120
Speaker 3: and talk about our incidences, but we talk about the

942
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:52,880
Speaker 3: good things in life and what next week look like,

943
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:55,359
Speaker 3: What are we looking forward to. So there's a real

944
00:54:55,440 --> 00:55:00,600
Speaker 3: lot of positive issues that come from that shooting. Six

945
00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:04,960
Speaker 3: hundred and fifty million dollars federally was allocated towards counter terrorism.

946
00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:09,800
Speaker 3: After the shooting and the cafe siege, meta data retention

947
00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:14,319
Speaker 3: laws change as a result. So if our incident had

948
00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:19,040
Speaker 3: just been a stop, go incident and move on, then

949
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:21,239
Speaker 3: you look at it and go, we lost. But the

950
00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:25,000
Speaker 3: legacy that came out of that is really significant. Matt's

951
00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:28,040
Speaker 3: done public speaking and.

952
00:55:27,520 --> 00:55:28,080
Speaker 2: Who was it?

953
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:32,360
Speaker 1: Was it Matt that the UN Yeah, Matt un Congress

954
00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:36,279
Speaker 1: A Victims of Terrorism yep. I made a note there

955
00:55:36,320 --> 00:55:40,120
Speaker 1: that sounds like a pretty big deal. Tell us about that.

956
00:55:40,239 --> 00:55:45,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, well that was in twenty twenty two and I

957
00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:47,359
Speaker 4: was having some troubles at work at the time, as

958
00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:50,520
Speaker 4: in PTSD needing to move and I was actually on

959
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:56,000
Speaker 4: sick leave in that August, and I've got a phone

960
00:55:56,000 --> 00:56:03,120
Speaker 4: call from Evon Crazy, who's one of the AFP. She's

961
00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:06,040
Speaker 4: a PILO Field of vest Ago over the aison officer,

962
00:56:06,080 --> 00:56:08,480
Speaker 4: so she was in charge that area. But I'd had

963
00:56:08,520 --> 00:56:11,759
Speaker 4: something to do with her, and she said, you know,

964
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:13,920
Speaker 4: do you want to do you want to come on

965
00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:19,120
Speaker 4: this come to New York and you know, you go

966
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:23,120
Speaker 4: to that the Congress of Victims of Terrorism, and it

967
00:56:23,239 --> 00:56:27,920
Speaker 4: was like, oh, yes, that'd be awesome. And anyway, so

968
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:30,239
Speaker 4: I sort of got back to work and we went

969
00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:34,120
Speaker 4: over early September. I was late September because it was

970
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:39,719
Speaker 4: the twenty first anniversary of the September eleventh attacks. When

971
00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:44,360
Speaker 4: we were there and you know, had the opportunity to

972
00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:47,640
Speaker 4: to address the Congress. And it's only a short time,

973
00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:52,480
Speaker 4: three minutes, but it was nice to be able to

974
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:58,960
Speaker 4: put you know, relay by and Nile's experiences around the attack,

975
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:04,480
Speaker 4: but also how our work had affected us and and

976
00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:07,240
Speaker 4: that sort of thing. And while it was only three minutes,

977
00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:10,360
Speaker 4: I think I got the point across, you know, but

978
00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:14,600
Speaker 4: saying that, I got back to work and you know, thinking,

979
00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:17,360
Speaker 4: you know, this is wow. You know, I spoke at

980
00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:19,720
Speaker 4: the U n you know, there was all these people

981
00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:23,680
Speaker 4: there and how how cool is this? And you know

982
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:28,520
Speaker 4: I got back to work and there was crickets and

983
00:57:28,640 --> 00:57:30,480
Speaker 4: you know, I think the only comment I got was

984
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:33,320
Speaker 4: how was your junket? And I'm thinking I wouldn't have

985
00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:37,320
Speaker 4: been on this trip if I hadn't been almost killed,

986
00:57:37,560 --> 00:57:42,240
Speaker 4: you know, eight years ago or whenever what was and

987
00:57:42,280 --> 00:57:45,240
Speaker 4: you know, so it just left this you know, this

988
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:49,360
Speaker 4: dirty sort of taste in my mouth, and and then

989
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:51,880
Speaker 4: you know, sort of some other things that work happened,

990
00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:54,240
Speaker 4: and I was you know, it was just it was

991
00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:56,320
Speaker 4: sort of almost the last straw, I guess, and that's

992
00:57:56,640 --> 00:57:59,640
Speaker 4: been off work, you know, two years this month.

993
00:58:00,040 --> 00:58:03,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, I don't know. Like those little comments like that,

994
00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:08,240
Speaker 1: it speaks to the culture of a lot of police organizations,

995
00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:11,880
Speaker 1: just the negative they drag, drag you down, like the junket,

996
00:58:11,920 --> 00:58:14,240
Speaker 1: how is the junket? Like people should have been going

997
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:16,120
Speaker 1: really proud of you. That must have been a great

998
00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:19,080
Speaker 1: experience and how much how different would that make you

999
00:58:19,160 --> 00:58:23,480
Speaker 1: feel than how is your junket? There's a cynicism in organizations.

1000
00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:25,720
Speaker 1: It's quite quite frustrating.

1001
00:58:26,560 --> 00:58:28,280
Speaker 4: And you said before, you know, you know, you answer

1002
00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:30,320
Speaker 4: it the little things, but the little things can make a.

1003
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:32,360
Speaker 2: Mass difference, adds up, adds up.

1004
00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:35,800
Speaker 4: So that little comment, as well as other things, you know,

1005
00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:40,760
Speaker 4: just it just and when you've got PTSD, things like

1006
00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:43,320
Speaker 4: that are magnified enormously.

1007
00:58:43,600 --> 00:58:46,480
Speaker 2: So yeah, just yeah, I guess it.

1008
00:58:46,960 --> 00:58:52,280
Speaker 1: Hurt And yeah, okay, no, I think when you explain

1009
00:58:52,360 --> 00:58:54,840
Speaker 1: it that way, I can understand that you come come back,

1010
00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:57,560
Speaker 1: you're proud, and then you just drag back down in

1011
00:58:57,640 --> 00:59:01,640
Speaker 1: the in the world. No. Twenty nineteen, you've got to

1012
00:59:01,640 --> 00:59:06,640
Speaker 1: present the match day football Hawthorn versus Collingwood game. Yeah,

1013
00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:10,360
Speaker 1: that was after getting the Bravery Award and different things

1014
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:11,080
Speaker 1: you wanted to tell us.

1015
00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:12,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right.

1016
00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:17,919
Speaker 3: So myself and matter received common Off Bravery Medals, the

1017
00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:21,880
Speaker 3: Australian Federal Police Bravery Medal, and I was lucky enough

1018
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:25,680
Speaker 3: to receive the Victoria Police Valor Awards. So Chief Commissioner

1019
00:59:25,720 --> 00:59:30,480
Speaker 3: Graham Ashton he nominated me for the Emergency Services Person

1020
00:59:30,520 --> 00:59:33,320
Speaker 3: of the Year. So as a result of that, presenting

1021
00:59:33,360 --> 00:59:35,880
Speaker 3: the match day football to the umpires at the MCG

1022
00:59:36,120 --> 00:59:39,959
Speaker 3: on a Friday night, the Hawthorne Collingwood game sixty five

1023
00:59:40,040 --> 00:59:44,320
Speaker 3: thousand people in police uniform. Which is really incredible to

1024
00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:49,880
Speaker 3: see the recognition for emergency services workers, not just myself,

1025
00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:52,880
Speaker 3: but for all of us, recognizing the work that we do.

1026
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:56,760
Speaker 3: So really proud moment to be there and being part

1027
00:59:56,760 --> 00:59:57,040
Speaker 3: of that.

1028
00:59:57,600 --> 01:00:00,960
Speaker 1: Okay, well look guys, I think we might wrap it

1029
01:00:01,040 --> 01:00:03,880
Speaker 1: up on this note. I want to say the way

1030
01:00:03,920 --> 01:00:06,840
Speaker 1: that you've articulated your journey that you've been through and

1031
01:00:07,640 --> 01:00:11,040
Speaker 1: the experience and the way that you're looking at policing

1032
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:13,440
Speaker 1: and what it's done. I want to thank you for

1033
01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:16,720
Speaker 1: the services that you've done. And I don't say that lightly.

1034
01:00:17,160 --> 01:00:20,080
Speaker 1: I sit here, I know the price that you guys

1035
01:00:20,160 --> 01:00:22,600
Speaker 1: have paid, and you've paid in a bit big way.

1036
01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:25,560
Speaker 1: But you should be proud of proud of what you did,

1037
01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:28,640
Speaker 1: and you've been tested at that's real sharp end and

1038
01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:30,280
Speaker 1: no one knows how they're going to react in the

1039
01:00:30,280 --> 01:00:31,600
Speaker 1: way that you guys reacted.

1040
01:00:31,880 --> 01:00:33,440
Speaker 2: You should be should be proud of.

1041
01:00:33,520 --> 01:00:38,160
Speaker 1: So hope best for the future and stay stay positive

1042
01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:40,160
Speaker 1: and thanks for coming on. I catch killers.

1043
01:00:40,840 --> 01:00:44,720
Speaker 2: Thanks Gary, Thanks Gary, appreciate your buying as you thank you. Cheers.

1044
01:00:44,720 --> 01:00:50,960
Speaker 1: Guys. Just goes to show, doesn't it that people that

1045
01:00:51,040 --> 01:00:53,000
Speaker 1: are involved in an instance like that that has a

1046
01:00:53,080 --> 01:00:54,520
Speaker 1: profound and long term.

1047
01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:54,880
Speaker 2: Effect on it.

1048
01:00:55,040 --> 01:00:58,560
Speaker 1: I really appreciated both Nyall and Matt coming on and

1049
01:00:58,880 --> 01:01:02,480
Speaker 1: sharing their experience in the heavy situation they found themselves

1050
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:02,560
Speaker 1: in

1051
01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:05,440
Speaker 2: That they managed to find a way out, which is impressive.