1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:03,680 Speaker 1: I'll good to him. It's the project that's you. 2 00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 2: It's Craigan Harpert sadly, as I'm recording the tenth of 3 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 2: the first year of our Lord. As my mother says, 4 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 2: twenty twenty six, speaking of Mary, bloody hell, she's eighty 5 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:18,480 Speaker 2: six years old and just a weapon. As we speak, 6 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:22,240 Speaker 2: speaking of weapons, a man who is at the opposite 7 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 2: end of his lifespan because he's I don't know, he's 8 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 2: probably not twelve, but he looks twelve. His name is 9 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 2: James Gillespie, son of the Great gillespo who is you 10 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 2: all know is a regular on this show, A lover 11 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 2: of research and science and all things controversial, but not 12 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 2: a lover of psychology, as we know. Did you know 13 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 2: that your old man is constantly making fun of me 14 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 2: mate about my PhD in psychology? 15 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:52,560 Speaker 1: Did you know that? 16 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:55,319 Speaker 3: No, I did not know that he targeted you on 17 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 3: that one. 18 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, not a fan at all, And like sadly, 19 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 2: some of what he says I agree with. It's a 20 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:08,039 Speaker 2: it's a pretty it's a pretty dodgy science, to be honest, 21 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 2: But it's you know, when you're getting all these kind 22 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:16,119 Speaker 2: of individual subjective assessments which are based on how someone 23 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 2: feels or thinks in the moment. 24 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:20,679 Speaker 1: It's not really hard science, is it. 25 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:26,840 Speaker 2: But anyway, speaking of research and science and making a difference. Now, 26 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 2: some of my listeners have never heard of you. Some 27 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 2: are familiar with you. But a few years ago you 28 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 2: decided that you would take a deep dive into having 29 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 2: a look at how the medical system works in Australia 30 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 2: and bulk billing and payment and what was available and 31 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 2: not was available, and who was advantaged and who was disadvantaged. 32 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 2: And I'm probably fucking this up a little bit. So 33 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 2: you created a thing called clean Bill and I think 34 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 2: that's right, and the Blue Report, so give just give 35 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 2: us a one minute synopsis of that before we dive 36 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 2: into what you've just what you're bringing out on Monday, 37 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 2: which will be close to when people hear this. 38 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 4: Absolutely so with clean Bill, I started it just from 39 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:17,919 Speaker 4: the basic idea that people will You can increase medical 40 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 4: accessibility enormously by showing people all of the options around 41 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 4: them and letting them filter those options by price, because 42 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:27,240 Speaker 4: of course price is an increasingly important part as fewer 43 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:30,239 Speaker 4: and fewer doctor's bulk bill of figuring out whether or 44 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:31,960 Speaker 4: not you can go and see a doctor who you 45 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 4: want us and go and see. And so I started 46 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 4: this initiative called clean bill, and it's a free website 47 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 4: called cleanbill dot com at clean build dot com dot 48 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 4: au where we go out we find every single doctor 49 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 4: of a particular type across the country and then we 50 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:48,399 Speaker 4: contact them to get their pricing information, and we keep 51 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:49,919 Speaker 4: contacting them until we're able to. 52 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 3: Get their pricing information. 53 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 4: We then put this pricing information as well as all 54 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:56,920 Speaker 4: of the other information we've been able to find about 55 00:02:56,919 --> 00:02:59,640 Speaker 4: the clinic online on cleanbill dot com dot au. It's 56 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 4: a completely free directory and anyone can then go and 57 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 4: search for all of these clinicians and clinics, see every 58 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 4: single option that's around them, and filter them by price 59 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 4: to find one that meets their affordability criterion. You can 60 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 4: see the prices that those clinics charge right there on 61 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 4: the website. And of course, we had all of this 62 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 4: data which no one else has on pricing information, so 63 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 4: we decided to aggregate it up into reports. And our 64 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 4: yearly Blue Report takes the gp information that we've collected 65 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:31,519 Speaker 4: over the course of the previous year, over the last 66 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 4: couple of months of the previous year, and look and 67 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 4: provides a comprehensive picture of what's going on for GP accessibility, 68 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 4: not only right now, but as it compares to the 69 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 4: last three years that we've been collecting this report as well, 70 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 4: so that we're starting to get a really really strong 71 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 4: idea of what the flows are in GP accessibility over time, 72 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 4: which is really good too. 73 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 2: Just going into this, when you started clean Build, what 74 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 2: was the hope. How when you do a project, you've 75 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 2: got your hypothesis and your aims, and like, what were 76 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 2: your aims? 77 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 1: Like, what did you want? 78 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 2: Obviously you wanted to bring this information to light and 79 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 2: to be able to provide a resource for people to 80 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 2: be able to access things more easily, more affordably. 81 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 1: I guess that was the intention. Was there anything other than. 82 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 4: That, Well, it was really twofold, So part of the 83 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 4: intention absolutely was on increasing accessibility for individuals. One of 84 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 4: the things that I noticed amongst my peers, and I 85 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 4: think anyone would have noticed over the last couple of years, 86 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:38,839 Speaker 4: is it's gotten more and more expensive to go and 87 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:42,040 Speaker 4: see a doctor, and nothing was being done about it. 88 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 4: So improving people's individual access to medical care seemed like 89 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 4: a good enough mission on its own. But I also wanted, 90 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 4: and this is partly why we published the Blue Report. 91 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 4: I also wanted the unique data that we were collecting 92 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 4: to be able to be used by decision makers when 93 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 4: determining what choices should be made about our healthcare system, 94 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 4: to improve that accessibility for people on the ground. So 95 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:08,720 Speaker 4: I wanted these reports in this data to be available 96 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:12,480 Speaker 4: to politicians and governments across the country so they had 97 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 4: the best data at their fingertips necessary to make calls 98 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 4: about policy. And we've already seen it have that effect. 99 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:20,839 Speaker 1: Wow, that's good. That's good. 100 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:24,600 Speaker 2: I mean because correct me if I'm wrong. Only as 101 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 2: much as I love you and massively, I only think 102 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 2: about this really once a year when. 103 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:33,279 Speaker 1: You call it. 104 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:37,479 Speaker 2: But you were pushing metaphoric, you know what, uphill for 105 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 2: a while, weren't you. You were, as I said to 106 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 2: you before the start, before we started rolling, you were 107 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:46,919 Speaker 2: for quite a while, really swimming against the tide. It 108 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:50,280 Speaker 2: seems like, no pun intended, the tide has turned. Slash 109 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:51,720 Speaker 2: is turning a little bit. 110 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. 111 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:56,279 Speaker 4: So when we first started Clean Bill, it was just me. 112 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 4: I was just I was paying. I was working full 113 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:01,279 Speaker 4: time job, and it was full time salary that was 114 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:04,119 Speaker 4: paying everyone who was working on Clean Bill to build 115 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:06,279 Speaker 4: this out and make it something that people could use, 116 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 4: and that was the case for about a year and 117 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 4: a half before we started licensing the data that we 118 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:13,480 Speaker 4: put into these reports, so the granular level data that 119 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:17,839 Speaker 4: we have on clinics, and they're billing practices to primary 120 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 4: health networks, to corporate so to HCF, which has been 121 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:25,280 Speaker 4: one of our clients for health so they can get 122 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:28,159 Speaker 4: a better idea of what's going on in the primary 123 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 4: care industry as well. And it's not just GP data, 124 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 4: it's dental data. We also have dermatologist data and so 125 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 4: that started to provide a bit of background for it 126 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 4: as well. But we also see increasingly and I mean 127 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 4: they'd never admit to it, but increasingly see the government 128 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:44,280 Speaker 4: engaging on the data that we've been putting out there. 129 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 4: For example, the large increase the bolt billing incentive expansion 130 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 4: which came into effect on one November this year, was 131 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:55,719 Speaker 4: the big Medicare promise from the government which was announced 132 00:06:55,720 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 4: in February of last year. That came out and was 133 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 4: announced only a couple of weeks after our Blue Report 134 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:07,359 Speaker 4: and targeted the specific patient sets that our Blue Report 135 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 4: was looking at. So whilst they would never admit it, 136 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 4: I have to imagine that we had a role to 137 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 4: play in making sure that that happened. 138 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: It's so funny, so funny. 139 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 2: Wouldn't it be nice if I've spoken about this many times? 140 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 2: Like imagine politicians or the government, a government that just said, hey, 141 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 2: we've got a few things wrong, so we're going to 142 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 2: do something about it. 143 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: Hey, James, by the way, thanks for all that data. 144 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: That's really helpful. 145 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 2: And it's given us a real kind of clarity around 146 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 2: the few things go You like that didn't have to 147 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 2: pay for it, even you're kind of doing the work 148 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 2: that they should be doing. 149 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 3: Well. Look, I think, I mean, I think. 150 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 4: What we're doing is a real focus on ensuring medical accessibility, 151 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 4: regardless of what the government policy is. But if our 152 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 4: data is able to inform that policy and help decision 153 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 4: makers those calls, then you know, so far the better 154 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 4: from my perspective. 155 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, all right, So tell us what's the what 156 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 2: we're going to now we're obviously going to be sharing 157 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 2: this either on or after the twelfth, So yeah, tell 158 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 2: us tell us what the new Blue Report tells us. 159 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 4: So the twenty twenty six Blue Report is our fourth 160 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 4: annual Blue Report, and it looks at six eight hundred 161 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 4: and seventy seven GP clinics across the country, which is 162 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 4: as many as we were able to find. There may 163 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 4: in fact be more out there that have somehow eluded 164 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 4: our research. Our research is fairly comprehensive, but I would 165 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 4: imagine that it's a pretty pretty pretty close to perfect 166 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 4: picture of the number of GP clinics across the country. 167 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 4: And what we found by comparing the data from this 168 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 4: year to the data from previous years is that we've 169 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 4: seen a complete reversal in the trends that we've seen 170 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 4: for bolk billing over the last couple of years. So, Craig, 171 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:00,679 Speaker 4: when I've come on and spoken previously about bulk billing 172 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 4: trends that we've seen, we've always been talking about bulk 173 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 4: billing going down, being less accessible, fewer clinics doing it. 174 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 3: That's completely changed. 175 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 4: We've seen a reversal of that to the point that 176 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 4: the percentage of fully bolk billing clinics across the country 177 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 4: has almost doubled since our twenty twenty five report, which 178 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 4: is great news. What that looks like around the country 179 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 4: is New South Wales. In the New South Wales and 180 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:29,560 Speaker 4: the Northern Territory, over fifty percent of GP clinics will 181 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 4: now fully bulk build every patient who walks in the door. 182 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:37,320 Speaker 4: And in Tasmania, where last year we weren't able to 183 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 4: find a single available fully gold billing. 184 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 3: Clinic, I remember that. 185 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, well last year when we did the research for that, 186 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 4: we checked it so many times because we thought it 187 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 4: couldn't possibly be that there are no available bulk billing clinics, 188 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:56,559 Speaker 4: but there weren't. There weren't any. Now there are thirty seven. 189 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 4: So yeah, massive turnaround in fully bulk billing numbers across 190 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 4: the country, which is a really really good outcome for accessibility. 191 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 4: But on the other side, we've also looked at out 192 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:12,320 Speaker 4: of pocket costs, so what it costs to go and 193 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 4: see the GP if you're not being bulk billed, And 194 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 4: what we found is that the average cost for a 195 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 4: standard consultation across the country for a regular adult has surged. 196 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 4: We're talking about thirteen percent higher today than it was 197 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 4: at the start of twenty twenty five nationwide. Now that's 198 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 4: partly because a lot of the less expensive clinics have 199 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:39,440 Speaker 4: switched to fully bulk billing, so their lower out of 200 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 4: pocket costs are no longer included in the figures when 201 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 4: we're calculating out of pocket costs, which pushes the average up. 202 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 4: But it's also even once you control for those clinics. 203 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 4: We've seen a six point eight percent increase in average 204 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 4: out of pocket costs over the last year, which doesn't 205 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:57,560 Speaker 4: sound like that much, but is actually sixty five percent 206 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:00,440 Speaker 4: higher than it was between twenty twenty four and twenty 207 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 4: twenty five. So we've seen quite a considerable increase in 208 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 4: average out of pocket costs, So its not bad. 209 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 2: I don't know if this is not particularly relevant, it's 210 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 2: kind of adjacent. It's kind of relevant adjacent, But I'm 211 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 2: just interested. Is there meant to be a kind of 212 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 2: a when we go a standard consultation? Is that meant 213 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 2: to be a specific number of minutes across the board? 214 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 2: Or does just is that very center to center? Is 215 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 2: it arbitrary? Is it just decided on the clinic or 216 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 2: how does that work? 217 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 4: Well, it's actually set down in the Medicare benefits schedule. 218 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 4: So when we're talking about a standard consultation, what we're 219 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 4: talking about is what's. 220 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 3: Called a level B or Item twenty three consultation. 221 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:48,840 Speaker 4: That's the name of the Medicare Benefit schedule item, and 222 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 4: it's between six and twenty minutes. That's what the Medicare 223 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 4: Benefit schedule defines it as between six and twenty minutes. 224 00:11:57,400 --> 00:11:59,079 Speaker 3: You commonly see that shortened to. 225 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 4: About fifteen because that's often how long doctors take for it. 226 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 3: But if your. 227 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 4: GP clinic is saying, well, we'll only talk to you 228 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 4: about one issue and we'll call it a standard consultation 229 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 4: if that issue takes you less than six minutes to 230 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 4: talk to them about, it's actually not a standard consultation anymore. 231 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 4: So it's not based on the number of issues that 232 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 4: you're going in to see the doctor with. It's based 233 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 4: on the amount of time that you're spending with the doctor. 234 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:28,560 Speaker 1: That's amazing. It's I. 235 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 2: Went and saw a doctor that I don't normally see, 236 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:35,079 Speaker 2: so I'm not throwing my normal doctor. And by the way, 237 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 2: I love doctors. Doctors are overworked there. They're amazing and 238 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 2: I don't know how. 239 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 1: You do it. 240 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 2: But I had to go see a doctor because my 241 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 2: doctor wasn't available anyway. It wasn't life or death, but 242 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:49,120 Speaker 2: I reckon start to finish. 243 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:50,080 Speaker 1: It took. 244 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:54,440 Speaker 2: Seven, seven or eight minutes from when I walked in 245 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 2: the door and for ninety percent of the time he 246 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 2: didn't look at me because he was looking at all 247 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 2: my information on a screen, so which I understand, but 248 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 2: it was so funny. 249 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 1: It's like, oh my god, I'm glad. I'm not needy. 250 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 1: I'm glad. 251 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 3: I'm glad because of maintenance on this. 252 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:15,719 Speaker 1: I just felt like, one champ, could you look at 253 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 1: me when you talk to me. 254 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 2: It's like, anyway it is. It is an overloaded system. 255 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 2: So you know, shout out to that dude. 256 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 1: It's all good. I got my I got my. 257 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 2: Prescription, so you know, it was I have which everyone's 258 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:33,559 Speaker 2: probably thinking, what does he get? I have hereditary blood 259 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 2: pressure everyone, which thanks to mom and dad. And it 260 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:41,959 Speaker 2: doesn't matter how many lifestyle variables I optimize, I still 261 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 2: have it. So there, it is all right. So so 262 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:47,440 Speaker 2: bulk bill and clinics across the country have double to. 263 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:51,320 Speaker 1: Just over forty percent nationally, which is amazing. 264 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 2: What to what do we credit the the uptake or 265 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 2: the improvement or the growth of this is that have 266 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 2: they been incentivized to do so by the government. 267 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 4: Exactly take the words out of my mouth there, Craig. 268 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 4: So it is an additional incentive that GP clinics are 269 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 4: receiving from the government in order to become fully bulk billing. So, 270 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 4: following on from the release of our Blue Report at 271 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 4: the start of last year, the government, heading into the election, 272 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 4: announced seven point nine billion dollars to increase GP accessibility 273 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 4: and increase the number of fully bold built GP clinics 274 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 4: across the country if they were re elected. Some of 275 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 4: you may remember that the opposition came out and supported it, 276 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 4: so it was a done deal that this was going 277 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 4: to happen. And so from one November this year, GP 278 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 4: clinics continue to receive the standard Medicare rebate when they 279 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 4: see a patient. Now, they receive this whether they charge 280 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 4: an out. 281 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 3: Of pocket cost or not. 282 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 4: Then if that GP clinic bulk bills you as a patient, 283 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 4: they then receive an additional incentive now and then if 284 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 4: they bulk bill every patient who comes in the door, 285 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 4: they'll receive an additional incentive on top of that additional incentive, 286 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 4: which is which is equal to twelve point five percent 287 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 4: of the total incentive amount and is split equally between 288 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 4: GPS and clinics. 289 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 3: And in case that. 290 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 4: Wasn't already complex enough to navigate the amount of those 291 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 4: incentives that GP clinics are receiving on top of the 292 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 4: medicare rebate scales based on how remote the clinics are, 293 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 4: so the whole country is split into areas modified monash 294 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 4: areas one to seven, with one being the most metro, 295 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 4: seven being the most regional, and clinics in the most 296 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 4: metro areas receive less money than clinics in regional areas 297 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 4: do under this change. So it's very complex, But the 298 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 4: long and short of it is it encourages clinics to 299 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 4: become fully bulk billing by providing them more money from 300 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 4: the government for doing so. But whilst it does increase 301 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 4: fully bulk billing clinics, it has a limited effect or 302 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 4: no effect rather on out of pocket costs if that 303 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 4: clinic doesn't start bulk billing because the clinic doesn't receive 304 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 4: any more money from the government if they continue to 305 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 4: charge out of pocket costs. 306 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 2: What do you think, I mean, you're you'd be guessing, 307 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 2: but you're definitely going to have more insolt. 308 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 1: Maybe you're not guessing. 309 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 2: Maybe you know, what do you think if you were 310 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 2: one of those clinics, Like, what what's the pros and 311 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 2: cons if we if we do a like an analysis, 312 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 2: what's going to make someone go all right, we're going 313 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 2: to be fully bulk built or not at all? Like 314 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 2: it must just come down to I guess financial and 315 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 2: also practicality and ease of execution, Like would it just 316 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 2: be simpler for some businesses? 317 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 4: Well, you must imagine that some GP clinics will look 318 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 4: at that from that lens. This is the devil in 319 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 4: the detail of it, Greg, is how this plays out 320 00:16:57,520 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 4: for each individual clinic. 321 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:00,040 Speaker 3: I think you and I spoke. 322 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 4: Last year about how difficult it is to model the 323 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,199 Speaker 4: effects of this change ahead of time, because it's so 324 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 4: difficult to know what clinics value and what they'll be 325 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 4: taking into account when making decisions about whether they become 326 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 4: fully bulk billing. I mean, even if you're just looking 327 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:18,399 Speaker 4: at from looking at it from an economics purely economics perspective, 328 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:21,200 Speaker 4: it's not just the incentives you've got to look for. 329 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 4: For example, in New South Wales, GP clinics receive state 330 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 4: level incentives, so they receive tax rebates if they bulk 331 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 4: bill more than eighty percent of their patients and are 332 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:33,200 Speaker 4: in Sydney, or if they're regional more than seventy percent 333 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 4: of their patients. So there are a lot of complex 334 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 4: moving factors coming into play when gps are making this call. 335 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 4: And as a result, when we were doing this collection 336 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 4: determining which GP clinics have become fully bulk billing and 337 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 4: what it costs to visit those that don't or haven't, 338 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 4: we were being told by a lot of clinics that 339 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 4: they were just trialing this. So where they switched to 340 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:56,679 Speaker 4: fully bulk billing, they were trialing it for six to 341 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 4: twelve months, determining whether or not this is something that 342 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:01,680 Speaker 4: they're going on keep going based on its effect on 343 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 4: their bottom line, and then you know, making the call 344 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 4: later on. So what will be really interesting as well 345 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 4: is not just this blue Report, but next year's Blue 346 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:13,960 Speaker 4: report to see to what extent these fully bolt billion 347 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 4: clinics stay stuck as fully ball billing clinics or switch back. 348 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 2: So where's where's the place we don't want to live 349 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 2: in Australia from a financial point of view accessing you know, 350 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 2: the medical resources we need, Like where's by the way, 351 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,119 Speaker 2: this is no disrespect. Let me let me ask a 352 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:35,439 Speaker 2: better question. Which is the dearest Which is the dearest 353 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:40,160 Speaker 2: state we love all the states even can we love 354 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:46,440 Speaker 2: territories like where's the place that's the toughest From this perspective. 355 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 4: Well, all things being equal, otherwise, the Act is probably 356 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:57,200 Speaker 4: the most difficult jurisdiction under this change, under the data 357 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:01,440 Speaker 4: that we've got, and that's for two reasons. Firstly, the 358 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 4: number of fully bolked billing clinics in the Act is 359 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:08,440 Speaker 4: a lot lower than in most other jurisdictions, and has 360 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:13,920 Speaker 4: increased a lot less than in similarly similarly populated jurisdictions 361 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 4: like Tasmania. And the reason for that is again based 362 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 4: on how much the incentives that clinics receive scale. So 363 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:28,679 Speaker 4: in Tasmania, for example, there aren't any metro areas, even 364 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:31,920 Speaker 4: in a Hobart isn't considered a metro area in Tasmania, 365 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 4: whereas the entirety of the Act is considered metro. So 366 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 4: the entirety of the Act is receiving the lowest incentives, 367 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:43,920 Speaker 4: whereas much of Tasmania receiving higher incentives. 368 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 3: The second point is that. 369 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 4: The Act already had very high out of pocket costs 370 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:53,439 Speaker 4: even before going into this, So whilst you in the 371 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:55,880 Speaker 4: Act you have fewer clinics that have switched to fully 372 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 4: bold billing, but you also have very high out of 373 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:02,120 Speaker 4: pocket costs at the clinics that haven't, So the ACT 374 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 4: is probably the most difficult jurisdiction to access that care 375 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 4: Comparatively around the country. 376 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 2: Do we have more doctors in twenty twenty six than 377 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:16,679 Speaker 2: we had in twenty twenty two or is it about 378 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 2: the same like out in the field so to speak. 379 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:24,879 Speaker 4: Well, we're only just starting to collect data on doctor numbers. 380 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:27,640 Speaker 4: To my understanding, it's largely the same and may even 381 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:32,360 Speaker 4: have increased slightly. But we have seen declines in clinic numbers, 382 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 4: which is really interesting. So those doctors are organized clinics, 383 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 4: and we've seen, particularly over the last Blue Report, clinic 384 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 4: closures and clinic consolidations at higher rates than we've seen previously. 385 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: So what do you. 386 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 2: For one of a better question, what are you happy 387 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:57,960 Speaker 2: with in this report and in the findings and the data, 388 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,439 Speaker 2: and what do you wish h for. 389 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:03,639 Speaker 1: Moving forward? 390 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 2: Like what would you like to see improve and what 391 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 2: do you think is so what are the positives and negatives? 392 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:09,680 Speaker 1: Sure? 393 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 4: So, I think the unequivocal positive out of this report 394 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:15,360 Speaker 4: is that we've seen a massive uptick in fully bold 395 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,679 Speaker 4: billing clinics across the country. It is simply easier, no 396 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:22,160 Speaker 4: matter where you live, to find an available fully bold 397 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 4: billing doctor today than it was a year ago. And 398 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:29,200 Speaker 4: that's true nationwide. So that's an unequivocal good Craig. 399 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 3: Where where I think. 400 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 4: There's there perhaps downsides to the report is just looking 401 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 4: at the amount by which out of pocket costs have increased, 402 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 4: Because whilst there are more fully bold billing clinics, if 403 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,119 Speaker 4: you don't belong to one of them, if you're not 404 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:49,640 Speaker 4: going to see a fully boltd billing doctor, you're out 405 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 4: of pocket costs have increased at higher rates than they 406 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:53,399 Speaker 4: have previously. 407 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 3: So I mean it. 408 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 4: It might sound like a bit of a broken record 409 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:01,919 Speaker 4: at this point, but I feel like the answer to 410 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 4: all of this, at least at the moment and at 411 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:08,960 Speaker 4: the individual level, is information. People need to know which 412 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,680 Speaker 4: clinics around them have switched to fully bold billing, which 413 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:15,680 Speaker 4: of those are taking on new patients, what it costs 414 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,639 Speaker 4: to visit those clinics that aren't fully bulk billing, if 415 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:20,640 Speaker 4: they're not able to get into a fully bold billing 416 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:24,720 Speaker 4: clinic around them. And that's why, at least in my eyes, 417 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 4: it's so critical to have a resource like clean bill 418 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 4: that shows people that information because otherwise they're doing it 419 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 4: in the dark. 420 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 2: What's the average consult like a a standard consultation, And 421 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,680 Speaker 2: I'm sure it varies, but what's the give or take 422 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 2: the average price of going to see a doctor, irrespective 423 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 2: of whether or not you know it's refunded in some way. 424 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,400 Speaker 4: Well, we don't calculate the averages accounting for fully bold 425 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:57,480 Speaker 4: billing clinics, but if you're looking at just clinics that 426 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,480 Speaker 4: will charge an out of pocket cost, the average that 427 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 4: we're talking about for a standard consultation is just under 428 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 4: fifty dollars out of pocket. But again that changes a 429 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 4: lot from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. For example, in Wa it's 430 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 4: a little bit lower than that. I think it's around 431 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:15,400 Speaker 4: forty six dollars, but if you're in Tasmania or the Act, 432 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 4: it's well over fifty dollars, And in Tasmania it's over 433 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 4: sixty dollars. So there is a lot of variability. And 434 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 4: it's worth remembering that these are just state wide averages. 435 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 4: So in each area across the country, there are clinics 436 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:30,639 Speaker 4: that are charging considerably less or considerably more than this, 437 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:32,879 Speaker 4: so it's important to have that information so you can 438 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:34,160 Speaker 4: make that call. 439 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:38,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, right, I had He's a little anecdote. So I 440 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 2: had an infection in my head, right, like a sinus infection. 441 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 2: I've had all these weird symptoms. This is I don't know, October, 442 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 2: September October. So I had to have all these tests 443 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:55,360 Speaker 2: done and it comes back that I've got sinus infection. 444 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 1: But it was. It gave me a myriad of symptoms. Anyway, 445 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:00,119 Speaker 1: I went to the doctor and. 446 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 2: I don't want to throw anyone under the bus, but 447 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 2: they prescribe We'll go with. They prescribed are two weeks 448 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:09,200 Speaker 2: of a particular antibiotic. 449 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:10,920 Speaker 1: So anyway, I. 450 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,880 Speaker 2: Got to the pharmacy and I went bibd bobbedy boo, 451 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 2: gave my script and they gave me one week's worth 452 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:19,880 Speaker 2: and I go, no, it's two, and he goes, it's one. 453 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 2: Have a look, and I went, oh, and it was. 454 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:27,640 Speaker 2: It was after it was like a chemist, it's open 455 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:31,160 Speaker 2: till ten. So I couldn't ring anyway, So the next 456 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:33,160 Speaker 2: day I forgot because I was doing a million things. 457 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,399 Speaker 2: But I already had a week, so I just wanted 458 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:39,439 Speaker 2: to ring the place to go, Hey, they stuffed up. 459 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 2: They only wrote one week, it's meant to be two, 460 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:42,959 Speaker 2: which it absolutely was. 461 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,879 Speaker 1: And then so they're like, oh, so you want an appointment. 462 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:49,360 Speaker 1: I go and no, I don't want an appointment. 463 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 2: I just want the script that was incorrectly given to 464 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 2: be corrected. So could you just send whatever? Oh, well, 465 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,920 Speaker 2: you'll need to talk to doctor such and such. I'm like, cool, 466 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:01,920 Speaker 2: So do you want to do a phone consult? I'm 467 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,399 Speaker 2: like no, no, we don't. So what they tried to 468 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:10,239 Speaker 2: do is charge me to fix a fuck up that 469 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 2: they made. I'm like, no, bro, I know what I 470 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,679 Speaker 2: need and I was given this is what I was 471 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:18,440 Speaker 2: meant to be given, and this is what I actually 472 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 2: was given. And you can ask the doctor if you like. 473 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 2: I don't need to have a chat. I just need 474 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 2: to be sent the correct a script. 475 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:30,639 Speaker 1: And oh they were. They were not happy. I'm like, 476 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:35,120 Speaker 1: I didn't fuck up. You didn't this fuck But. 477 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 4: This is an increasingly common story that you hear. I mean, 478 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 4: one of my one of my colleagues who works at 479 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:46,399 Speaker 4: clean Bell, was telling me a very similar story just 480 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 4: a couple of weeks ago, where the prescription they'd gotten 481 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 4: was wrong. They wanted to get it updated, but in 482 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 4: order to do so, they needed to book in with 483 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:56,639 Speaker 4: their doctor. Now, for them, it was that was actually 484 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:58,399 Speaker 4: made more difficult by the fact that the doctor didn't 485 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,199 Speaker 4: have free appointments quite some time. It was over a 486 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 4: week before their doctor had another free appointment. You can 487 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:08,200 Speaker 4: see it from a clinics perspective, right, Craig, Like, they're thinking, well, 488 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 4: you know, if we're renewing this or fixing this error 489 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 4: with the script, then we'll need to get the doctor 490 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:18,639 Speaker 4: to review it to make sure it's correct. But the 491 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:22,360 Speaker 4: doctors can't charge you for that because they're just reviewing 492 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,719 Speaker 4: the script and that's time out of their day. And 493 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 4: you know, in this circumstance, it's not your fault, but 494 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 4: in some circumstances, clinics may feel that it is the 495 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 4: patient's fault, and so there's a bit of friction there, 496 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,960 Speaker 4: and there are whole industries now being built, Craig around 497 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 4: trying to remove that friction from the relationship. That's why 498 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 4: we've seen significant growth in telehealth services and in prescription 499 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 4: automatic prescription renewal services, just because people want to have 500 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:58,159 Speaker 4: that flexibility to if a mistake's being made, fix it 501 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,200 Speaker 4: without needing to book another appointment, And. 502 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:02,919 Speaker 2: Can I say, before anyone gets mad at me, I 503 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 2: love doctors. Three of my friends are doctors and they 504 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:10,440 Speaker 2: are fucking They're great. And also, by the way, podcasters 505 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:14,680 Speaker 2: do stupid shit, so to exercise scientists, so to bloody 506 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 2: psychology researchers, and even the bloke who owns or created 507 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 2: clean Bill probably he does. All right, mate, what's the 508 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:26,440 Speaker 2: wrap up? What's the takeaway? What do you want to 509 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:31,919 Speaker 2: tell us that we don't already know? And let's that 510 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 2: and then I've got one more question for you. 511 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:34,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely. 512 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 4: Takeaway here is just that whilst these statistics do look good, 513 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 4: and they are good at least from a ball billing perspective, 514 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:45,680 Speaker 4: and whilst they might look dire from an out of 515 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:49,399 Speaker 4: pocket costs perspective, they are just averages and it is 516 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,200 Speaker 4: possible in all areas to find either a fully balled 517 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,960 Speaker 4: billing or a low out of pocket cost GP. It's 518 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 4: just about having the information necessary to find them, and 519 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 4: you can find all of that information on clean Bill. 520 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,920 Speaker 2: As you move forward with the Blue Report year to 521 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:08,200 Speaker 2: year one, I'm assuming, which might be an erroneous assumption. 522 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:12,359 Speaker 2: You're on a that's you're kind of intending to do 523 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 2: it in you know, for as long as it's needed. 524 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, yeah, absolutely, So do. 525 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,640 Speaker 2: You after four reports, do you go, hey, everyone, let's 526 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 2: sit down. What do you reckon that we could do 527 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,159 Speaker 2: or change or improve or like? Do you are you 528 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:33,639 Speaker 2: constantly kind of looking at different things reports report? Or 529 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 2: are you like, is there some focus that you might 530 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:39,959 Speaker 2: have in next year's report that you didn't have in 531 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 2: this year's report. I mean, we're always talking about constant 532 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 2: improvement and adaptation. 533 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 1: What does that look like in the context of a 534 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 1: yearly report? 535 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, so, Craig, that is absolutely the mindset that we 536 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 4: take towards it. There's no situation where we're resting on 537 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 4: our laurels and saying, Okay, we've collected enough data, that's 538 00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 4: the Blue Report sorted, and you know, washing our hands 539 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 4: of it. Every single year that we've released the Blue Report, 540 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,440 Speaker 4: it's been my goal to incorporate more information from it, 541 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 4: and that information is usually determined by conversations that we 542 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,600 Speaker 4: have with people like yourself, Craig, or just regular patients 543 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 4: about the kind of information that they would find helpful 544 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 4: to have collected from GP clinics. So, between our first 545 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,960 Speaker 4: and our second Blue report, we started collecting information from 546 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 4: clinics on one off fees, so membership fees that clinics 547 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 4: were or admin fees that clinics were charging on top 548 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 4: of their regular fee structure, so we could incorporate that 549 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 4: in and provide people with more information about Okay, this 550 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 4: clinic is a bulk billing clinic, but they'll charge you 551 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 4: a sixty dollars admin fee up front to see them. 552 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 3: The second time around. 553 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,600 Speaker 4: The improvement that we were looking to make on it 554 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 4: was a massive increase in our research capability, so we 555 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 4: could be one hundred percent sure we were getting that 556 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 4: last one or two percent of clinics that were really 557 00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 4: really difficult to find. 558 00:29:58,280 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 3: And in this time around. 559 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 4: Focus has been on expanding out the collections that we're 560 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 4: not just now looking at non concession patients. We've also 561 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 4: got pricing information for children now that's not yet available 562 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 4: on the website. We're working on making that available on 563 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 4: the website now, but we'll have children pricing information for 564 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 4: children information that'll be available on the website so people 565 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 4: will then be able to say, Okay, I'm not looking 566 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 4: for an appointment for me, I'm actually looking for an 567 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 4: appointment for my child. And because clinics will often charge 568 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 4: differently based on whether it's an adult or whether it's 569 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 4: a child coming into the clinic, that's really helpful information 570 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 4: to have. We're also collecting now information on practitioners, so 571 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 4: we can say, these are the practitioners who are working 572 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 4: out of the clinic, and this is you know if 573 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 4: you have if a practitioner has a particular area of interest, 574 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 4: we'll have that information on the page that someone can say, Okay, 575 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 4: I really want a practitioner who's particularly interested in men's health. 576 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 3: Example. 577 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 4: They'll then be able to search for that specifically and 578 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:08,800 Speaker 4: find that practitioner specifically who not only needs their affordability criteria, 579 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 4: but is also meeting there their area of interest that 580 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 4: they're looking for, has the qualifications that they're looking for, 581 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:20,479 Speaker 4: and offers online bookings as well. And so it's about 582 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 4: constantly expanding the information that we're offering to people when 583 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 4: they're using the website. 584 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 2: All right, my last one, I'm interested in, Like, I'm 585 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 2: interested in ideas that become things, and your idea became 586 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:35,840 Speaker 2: a thing, right, and like the You Project was an 587 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 2: idea and now it's two and two thousand, one hundred 588 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 2: episodes eight years whatever, you know, But I mean, I 589 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 2: didn't invent podcasts, of course. But what I'm saying is 590 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 2: like everything that becomes a business or an organization or 591 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 2: a product or a service or a whatever or a 592 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 2: report or everything originally was an idea in someone's gone 593 00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:00,840 Speaker 2: that got operationalized. And I remember when you first started 594 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 2: you had a fair bit of resistance, and it's not 595 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 2: like you were everyone when oh thank god James and 596 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 2: his fucking reporter here. 597 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 1: You know, it's I feel like it was almost the opposite. 598 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 2: There any has have other companies kind of gone, or 599 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 2: organizations or whoever embraced you at all. Are there any 600 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 2: organizations that want to partner with you, support you, work 601 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 2: alongside you. 602 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 1: How's that gone? 603 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:33,880 Speaker 4: Well, Look, our feeling, first and foremost is we want 604 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 4: to work alongside anyone that we possibly can who shares 605 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,240 Speaker 4: the same goals that we do, which is increasing medical 606 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:45,920 Speaker 4: accessibility for people and dental accessibility for people. Yes, And 607 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:50,880 Speaker 4: to that end, we've been reaching out constantly to bridge 608 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,360 Speaker 4: that gap and to find opportunities to work together with 609 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 4: organizations on that. When we first started, Craig, there was, 610 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 4: as you, as you said. 611 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 3: A lot of reluctance to work with us. 612 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 4: But it's also I think an element of that is 613 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 4: we started, and we started with a bit of a bang. 614 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 1: You know. 615 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:13,840 Speaker 4: The first time that a lot of people got introduced 616 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 4: to clean BIL was with our first Blue Report, and 617 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 4: they saw it in the media, but they hadn't heard 618 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 4: of the website behind it, They hadn't heard of the directory, 619 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 4: they didn't know what we were doing. In fact, when 620 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 4: we first released that first Blue Report, we had a 621 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 4: huge amount of work afterwards correcting articles that had misattributed 622 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,600 Speaker 4: the report to either the RCGP or the government because 623 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 4: they just didn't know where clean Bill had come from. 624 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:40,840 Speaker 4: But we are slowly turning that tide, and not just 625 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:45,040 Speaker 4: at the organization level, but at the individual clinic level, 626 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 4: because clean Bill has now made it so that there's 627 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 4: an expectation in patients minds and increasingly in clinics minds, 628 00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:58,200 Speaker 4: that pricing information will be available. When we first started 629 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 4: clean Bill, only around three quarters of GP actually sorry 630 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 4: three quarters as where as is now only around forty 631 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:08,520 Speaker 4: percent of GPA clinics across the country had a website, 632 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:10,880 Speaker 4: and of those that did, only around ten percent of 633 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,360 Speaker 4: them had pricing information online. 634 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:15,480 Speaker 3: Wow, that's that's. 635 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 1: Ten percent of the forty percent. 636 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:21,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, ten percent of the forty percent, so that's four percent. 637 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:25,920 Speaker 4: Four percent had pricing information online. Even fewer had availability information, 638 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 4: so whether or not they were taking on new patients. 639 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 4: That's completely changed. Now now you've got seventy five percent 640 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 4: of GP clinics across the country have a website, and 641 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 4: of those that have a website, it's around seventy percent 642 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:45,319 Speaker 4: have pricing information on their website. Now that information isn't 643 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:47,400 Speaker 4: always correct, it's not always kept up to date. We 644 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:51,120 Speaker 4: at clean Bill don't even treat it as definitive evidence 645 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 4: of pricing. Will usually get secondary confirmation by contacting the 646 00:34:56,200 --> 00:35:00,120 Speaker 4: clinic as well to confirm it. But that shows that's 647 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 4: how much of a change in attitude you've seen over 648 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:04,839 Speaker 4: the last couple of years, which is it's gone from 649 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,040 Speaker 4: one where patients have no right to know how much 650 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,640 Speaker 4: it's going to cost them to visit the doctor beforehand 651 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,360 Speaker 4: to one where patients expect it, and if your clinic 652 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:16,960 Speaker 4: isn't providing it, whether it be through clean Bill or 653 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,080 Speaker 4: through its own website, then patients will just go somewhere 654 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:21,640 Speaker 4: where they are providing that information. 655 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:27,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense, mate, Always good to talk to you. Congratulations. 656 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,600 Speaker 2: Where do you want to direct people? So obviously it's 657 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 2: the twelfth or later. I'm not sure when people are 658 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:37,200 Speaker 2: going to be hearing this, but it's definitely not today 659 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,080 Speaker 2: the tenth. Where do you want to direct people? Where 660 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:42,520 Speaker 2: can they go to learn more? 661 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,120 Speaker 4: So cleanbill dot com dot au has all the information 662 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:48,680 Speaker 4: you're looking for. You'll be able to read the full 663 00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:50,759 Speaker 4: blue Report that Craig and I have been talking about 664 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,440 Speaker 4: on today's podcast. Right there, you'll be able to see 665 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,359 Speaker 4: the whole thing. And from that website, you'll also be 666 00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,319 Speaker 4: able to search for GP clinics all around you. You'll 667 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 4: be able to see every single GP clinic around you, 668 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:04,120 Speaker 4: and you'll be able to filter them by price to 669 00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:07,080 Speaker 4: find ones that meet your affordability criteria. And that's only 670 00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 4: going to get more in depth with more information as 671 00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 4: time goes on. 672 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:14,759 Speaker 2: Yeah, well we'll say goodbye. Heare, but mate, super good. 673 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:19,360 Speaker 2: What you do is amazing. Your energy and your kind 674 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:23,719 Speaker 2: of altruism and your intention and your motivation behind. 675 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:25,840 Speaker 1: All of this I love and I admire, so well. 676 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:29,799 Speaker 2: Done to you and the team and we'll talk again, mate, 677 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:32,440 Speaker 2: and good luck with the report coming out. 678 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:33,680 Speaker 1: I hope it's well received. 679 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:36,000 Speaker 3: Thanks very much, Craig looking forward to it. 680 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:37,000 Speaker 1: Thanks buddy,