WEBVTT - Beyond the Breaking Point: Cameron Hardiman Pt.2

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<v Speaker 1>The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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<v Speaker 1>Detective see aside of life the average person is never

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<v Speaker 1>exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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<v Speaker 1>For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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<v Speaker 1>That's what I did for a living. I was a

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<v Speaker 1>homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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<v Speaker 1>The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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<v Speaker 1>from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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<v Speaker 1>and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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<v Speaker 1>of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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<v Speaker 1>no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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<v Speaker 1>Join me now as I take you into this world.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to part two of my chat with Cameron Hardiman.

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<v Speaker 1>In part one, we spoke about Cameron's early career in policing. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>in part two, Cameron tells us about the high risk

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<v Speaker 1>helicopter rescue in bass Strait that made him realize couldn't

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<v Speaker 1>keep rolling the dice. Cameron then joined the AFP, which

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<v Speaker 1>took him to the Solomon Islands on a peacekeeping operation

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<v Speaker 1>and a humanitarian operation in christ Church after the devastating earthquakes.

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<v Speaker 1>He also investigated international drug dealers and human trafficking. Cameron's

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<v Speaker 1>job finally caught up with him. He was diagnosed with PTSD.

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<v Speaker 1>This ended his career in the police. I've enjoyed this

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<v Speaker 1>talk with Cameron and his reflection on bravery and resilience.

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<v Speaker 1>Cameron Hardiman, welcome back to part two If I Catch Killers.

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<v Speaker 1>Well one that operation that I want to talk about,

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<v Speaker 1>and I'll let you tell the story because it's fascinating

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<v Speaker 1>the whole scenario of what took place. But that was

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<v Speaker 1>the rescue you did in bass Strait. Can you tell

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<v Speaker 1>us about tell us about that because that particular rescue

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<v Speaker 1>has played a big part in your life. It had

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<v Speaker 1>a bigger impact on you than you probably thought that would. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>and it was fairly intense what happened. So I suppose

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<v Speaker 1>best way let you just tell the story. What it

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<v Speaker 1>was about that day.

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<v Speaker 2>I was rousted on the police helicop, you know. So

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<v Speaker 2>I walked into work and looked at the roster and

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<v Speaker 2>said that I'm on the police helicop. I've got my

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<v Speaker 2>gear ready as usual. But it was one of those

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<v Speaker 2>days when you drive to work and you think, boy,

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<v Speaker 2>that this weather is terrible, and I remember seeing his

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<v Speaker 2>dark cloud on their eyes, and you know they had

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<v Speaker 2>on the news that there was a storm out straight

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<v Speaker 2>The Spirit of Tasmania. The big news story to that

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<v Speaker 2>morning was the Spirit of Tasmania. It started across straight

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<v Speaker 2>and the waves so big a start of the first

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<v Speaker 2>portholes smashed portholes on upper decks and move furniture, and

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<v Speaker 2>people were vomiting and had to turn back. And I thought, well,

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<v Speaker 2>that's somewhere I'd rather stay away from as I'm driving

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<v Speaker 2>to work. But obviously it didn't happen that way, and

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<v Speaker 2>we started the morning. The first job of the morning

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<v Speaker 2>was someone that had seen or believe they saw someone

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<v Speaker 2>fall off the bridge at a swollen creek out of

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<v Speaker 2>the West and suburbs because there was floods everywhere. So

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<v Speaker 2>someone had seen this driven past seating someone standing on

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<v Speaker 2>the side of this bridge looking at the swollen ribbon

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<v Speaker 2>underneath them of the creek, and when they looked back,

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<v Speaker 2>the person was in there, so they assumed they either

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<v Speaker 2>fell or jumped. So we got called down to there,

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<v Speaker 2>and usually when you're looking for someone like that, we

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<v Speaker 2>flew down to about three hundred feet and we started

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<v Speaker 2>tracking up and down the river looking all the flood waters.

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<v Speaker 2>I had the back door slid open and the harness one.

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<v Speaker 2>I was sitting on the ledge looking out, and we

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<v Speaker 2>couldn't find it. Usually we could if someone had fallen

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<v Speaker 2>over you, that'd either report back that they'd found them,

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<v Speaker 2>or someone will be recorded missing. And there was none

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<v Speaker 2>of that. And we expected that if we're going to

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<v Speaker 2>find this person, they're going to be flooded face down

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<v Speaker 2>and stuck them into eddy or against grass, up against

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<v Speaker 2>the tree. But we never feund anyone. And as we

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<v Speaker 2>were doing that, a call came in through the office

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<v Speaker 2>to say that there was a guy in a yacht

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<v Speaker 2>in the middle of us Straight that got hit by

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<v Speaker 2>the storm, was being bashed around. He had no mast

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<v Speaker 2>and the water place were asking if we can go

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<v Speaker 2>and winch him off his boat. And I remember looking

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<v Speaker 2>out to the south of Bass Straight and that massive

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<v Speaker 2>gray cloud was still there. And I had effectively volunteered

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<v Speaker 2>to be the winch crewman that day. All the down

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<v Speaker 2>the wire man it was. It was too late to

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<v Speaker 2>get out of it then, so we headed back to

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<v Speaker 2>s and And Airport to refuel on there EGS helicopter come

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<v Speaker 2>out and continue to search for the person. And we

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<v Speaker 2>got ready and we got the position. We got out

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<v Speaker 2>of our maps and saw that it was about sixty

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<v Speaker 2>five miles off the coast of Sail, which is where

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<v Speaker 2>the rough blass and the pilot who worked out he

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<v Speaker 2>had enough fuel to fill up the tanks and enough

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<v Speaker 2>fuel to get there, get us ten minutes over the

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<v Speaker 2>top of the yacht to winch him off, and then

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<v Speaker 2>enough fuel to get back to the nearest airport, which

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<v Speaker 2>was a bat out thirty minute flight back. So we thought, well,

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<v Speaker 2>let's go and do it. And I remember we got

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<v Speaker 2>we're heading there, and I was getting what was called

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<v Speaker 2>a survival suit on, so because it was cold winter

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<v Speaker 2>and wet and straight on. Instead of using a normal

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<v Speaker 2>wet so he used to what was called survival suit.

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<v Speaker 2>So I got stuck out in the water. I've got

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<v Speaker 2>about six hours rather than one hour before we get hold.

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<v Speaker 2>I remember it. Get stuck at these hills. We had

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<v Speaker 2>to sort of sneak around the cloud low level to

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<v Speaker 2>get out there. You know, it took a fair while

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<v Speaker 2>to get sixty five miles out the closest thing on

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<v Speaker 2>there was no land visible from there, I could see

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<v Speaker 2>a major oil rig on the horizon just as we

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<v Speaker 2>sort of hit the ocean and wandered away that the

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<v Speaker 2>search and rescue people in Canberra sent down a fixed

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<v Speaker 2>wing aircraft. They sent one from a rabit And airport

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<v Speaker 2>to sit over the top of us just to maintain

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<v Speaker 2>communications with US and aviation traffic radio to say that yep,

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<v Speaker 2>we're still there and still operating and all right. So

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<v Speaker 2>it was like a bit of top cover for us.

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<v Speaker 2>So we finally got in the area, so we knew

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<v Speaker 2>we had enough fuel for ten minutes to find him

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<v Speaker 2>and get him off the yacht, and enough you're to

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<v Speaker 2>get back to them. There is fire only dipper. The

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<v Speaker 2>water police that wanted this this sailor to scuttle his

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<v Speaker 2>yacht before he got win stopped. So they wanted him

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<v Speaker 2>to pull what's called seacock founs, the big bowers in

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<v Speaker 2>the back. Once you paull them, it starts flooding in

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<v Speaker 2>the Boatle sent within about ten to fifteen minutes. And

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<v Speaker 2>the reason they wanted him to do that is that

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<v Speaker 2>they didn't want an unman yacht floating around in shipping channels.

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<v Speaker 2>So they get people that if you winch him off

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<v Speaker 2>the yacht.

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<v Speaker 1>You've got to scuttle it, right, Okay, didn't realize that.

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<v Speaker 2>Unless it's knowing, but they don't leave it. There's enough

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<v Speaker 2>crap out there floating in the ocean damaging boats without

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<v Speaker 2>having extra yachts floating around with no one in them,

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<v Speaker 2>especially by straight major shipping channel. So we had to

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<v Speaker 2>ask our water police to contact him on his radio

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<v Speaker 2>and say the second because we only had ten minutes.

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<v Speaker 2>We said the second we get overhead. We need him

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<v Speaker 2>as soon as he sees the helicopter to pull those

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<v Speaker 2>valves and get up to the deck because we've only

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<v Speaker 2>got a few seconds to get him off the off.

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<v Speaker 1>So when you're talking that the fuel is that that tight?

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<v Speaker 1>When you're talking the time time restraints there, you haven't

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<v Speaker 1>got time to muck around. You're basically going to be

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<v Speaker 1>running on fumes by the time you get back.

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<v Speaker 2>Helicopters don't have endless fuel ballot, but bladders, and the

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<v Speaker 2>more fuel you put on, the more weight you have.

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<v Speaker 2>So therefore, the less you can carry, the less you

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<v Speaker 2>can fly. Okay, Now, if you fill the helicopter, our

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<v Speaker 2>helicopter up with the two tanks and what we call nine.

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<v Speaker 2>At the boot tank, you've probably got about two hours endurance.

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<v Speaker 2>But if you start adding equipment and then three people,

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<v Speaker 2>you've got to reduce fuel. So now we've got say

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<v Speaker 2>we've got our full tanks, we've got to make the

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<v Speaker 2>pile's going to make sure that he's got enough fuel

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<v Speaker 2>to get there. He puts an extra person, so extra

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<v Speaker 2>hundred kilos on board, So therefore he's going to make

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<v Speaker 2>sure that fuel Bunce is right. He's got enough to

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<v Speaker 2>get back. Now. Unfortunately, you hear this all the time,

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<v Speaker 2>the rescues that they were low on fuel. Well, that's

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<v Speaker 2>always the case. You leave with a certain a man

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<v Speaker 2>of fuel and the second you get off the ground

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<v Speaker 2>you start running out. So there is a time when

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<v Speaker 2>you have to head back. The further year go. The

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<v Speaker 2>less time you got on task lot stupid diving the

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<v Speaker 2>dpe go, the less time you could stay there. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>we believe that that message was passed on that he

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<v Speaker 2>was going to scuddle the ship, the boat and then

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<v Speaker 2>make his.

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<v Speaker 1>Way to the deck the moment he saw you, the moment.

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<v Speaker 2>He saw us, yea. And it took us a while

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<v Speaker 2>to find him because you can imagine that there's five

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<v Speaker 2>to seven meter waves and seas and bass strikes like

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<v Speaker 2>a washing machine. It's quite shallow, so you get waves

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<v Speaker 2>and a swell out there a small part of bats

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<v Speaker 2>straights like this, they start to bend out of a

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<v Speaker 2>white cap. So we're in the right spot. We just

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<v Speaker 2>couldn't just couldn't see it because the white caps everywhere,

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<v Speaker 2>and the pilot we were almost thinking we're going to

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<v Speaker 2>have to refuel, go back, refuel, come back and have

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<v Speaker 2>another crack. And the pilot spotted it. And the reason

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<v Speaker 2>was so hard is because he was the same size

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<v Speaker 2>with his white caps. He's in a white yacht and

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<v Speaker 2>he's been rolled over, so he just looked like another

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<v Speaker 2>white cap. So the pilot had said that he's ready

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<v Speaker 2>to winch. He was in a harbor, and I jumped

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<v Speaker 2>in the back, hooked onto the wire. The winch operator

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<v Speaker 2>put me out the door. I remember first opening that

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<v Speaker 2>door and there was this war and you get this

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of wind gusts because of the downdraft of

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<v Speaker 2>the helicopter and the engines making noise. But on top

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<v Speaker 2>of that there was this war from waves and wind

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<v Speaker 2>as well, and I remember thinking, I'm going to have

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<v Speaker 2>to think about getting a transfer out of there, because

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<v Speaker 2>I don't think you'll be doing this one again. I

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<v Speaker 2>remember yelling because you can't talk. I remember yelling over

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<v Speaker 2>the noise to the wind operator saying, you know, do

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<v Speaker 2>your best to put me on the deck. He can't

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<v Speaker 2>get me on the deck, stick me in the water

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<v Speaker 2>and I'll drag him in and lo and behold. I

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<v Speaker 2>cannot believe the wind shopper Brennan. I don't know how

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<v Speaker 2>he did it because the bag. You got to remember

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<v Speaker 2>the helicopters sitting there at harbor. He's verbally guiding the

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<v Speaker 2>pilot and around while he's controlling my height, and the

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<v Speaker 2>boat is just getting thrown around. And he manages to

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<v Speaker 2>land me on the deck of the yacht right where

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<v Speaker 2>the cabin entry to the cabin is, with half a

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<v Speaker 2>meter of the guy standing there. And I thought, I

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<v Speaker 2>cannot believe he's done this. I thought I'm cashing in

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<v Speaker 2>on there. So I went to stick the strop over

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<v Speaker 2>his head and then under his arms, and I was

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<v Speaker 2>going to give the crom a wind job, rode a

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<v Speaker 2>thumb saying get me out of here. I reckon. I

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<v Speaker 2>could have spent about three seconds on that yacht, and

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<v Speaker 2>I get him off, but he just looked at me.

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<v Speaker 2>Stune turned around and went back into the cabin, and

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<v Speaker 2>I thought, well, this is turned into shit. Hurry, So

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<v Speaker 2>I turned around and look at the helicopter, and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I've got lots of cables, lots of cable. Something happens

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<v Speaker 2>and it should have been sitting just behind me and

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<v Speaker 2>holed it was actually moving forward flying. Look, it was

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<v Speaker 2>flying off. And what had happened was the aircraft and

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<v Speaker 2>the wind on its nose had shifted, so it started

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<v Speaker 2>to drift forward, and the boat had started to drift

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<v Speaker 2>al So the slack cable that had come down that

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<v Speaker 2>was in the water was slowly getting pulled out. I

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<v Speaker 2>remember seeing it.

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<v Speaker 1>The cable you're connected to.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm still connected to the cable of the harness,

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<v Speaker 2>and you know, I had about maybe twenty feet of

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<v Speaker 2>slack that was slowly going and I remember going, it's

0:11:19.200 --> 0:11:21.080
<v Speaker 2>going to go in tight any minute. And I remember

0:11:21.120 --> 0:11:23.560
<v Speaker 2>flicking it over this sort of wind generator the back

0:11:23.559 --> 0:11:26.319
<v Speaker 2>of the yacht, and I turned to face a helicopter

0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:29.120
<v Speaker 2>that was meting away quite rapidly, and the why went

0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:32.319
<v Speaker 2>tight and I took a step just to protect myself

0:11:32.360 --> 0:11:34.240
<v Speaker 2>and shot off the boat, dragged me off the boat

0:11:34.280 --> 0:11:37.440
<v Speaker 2>and I landed. I remember flying through the air, thinking

0:11:38.360 --> 0:11:42.120
<v Speaker 2>this is not good, and I braced myself to hit

0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:44.760
<v Speaker 2>the side of a wave, which I did, and I

0:11:44.840 --> 0:11:48.800
<v Speaker 2>went under and a wave come over the top. I

0:11:48.800 --> 0:11:51.440
<v Speaker 2>remember being underwater and quite disorientated because I think I

0:11:51.440 --> 0:11:55.240
<v Speaker 2>winded myself and I embraced myself and thinking I got

0:11:55.280 --> 0:11:56.400
<v Speaker 2>to get out of the water, but I didn't know

0:11:56.440 --> 0:11:58.240
<v Speaker 2>which way I was up, and it's quite turbulent.

0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:01.719
<v Speaker 1>I remember thinking, camera, sorry to win it up. But

0:12:01.840 --> 0:12:04.920
<v Speaker 1>these waves we're talking is what I've got pictured in

0:12:04.960 --> 0:12:08.480
<v Speaker 1>my mind. I've you've seen sea rescues or when the

0:12:09.440 --> 0:12:14.320
<v Speaker 1>waves of just if they're breaking windows on the ship

0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:19.120
<v Speaker 1>that goes between Bass Strait, the spirit of Tasmania. You're

0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:21.720
<v Speaker 1>looking at very this is a scary place. You don't

0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:22.120
<v Speaker 1>want to be.

0:12:22.880 --> 0:12:25.040
<v Speaker 2>Oh look, you know. I mean I remember looking at

0:12:25.120 --> 0:12:27.520
<v Speaker 2>thinking they huge. I mean, they're probably they're higher than

0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:31.440
<v Speaker 2>probably around about house height five to seven meters.

0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:32.680
<v Speaker 1>I mean, love the water.

0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:34.800
<v Speaker 2>That's a lot of water. There was no rhythm to

0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:36.679
<v Speaker 2>them anywhere. It's a lot cushing into each other. It's

0:12:36.679 --> 0:12:37.600
<v Speaker 2>just like a washing show.

0:12:38.480 --> 0:12:41.600
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so you're you've been you've been dragged off the boat,

0:12:41.880 --> 0:12:46.000
<v Speaker 1>you've hooked up to the helicopter. Helicopters heading in one direction,

0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:49.280
<v Speaker 1>boats in another. You get the jerk and you find

0:12:49.280 --> 0:12:51.800
<v Speaker 1>yourself in the water. You're under the water.

0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:55.160
<v Speaker 2>Yep, amount of breath there was. There was a split

0:12:55.160 --> 0:12:56.760
<v Speaker 2>second where I thought the next one was going to

0:12:56.760 --> 0:12:58.640
<v Speaker 2>be a lung full of water. But I don't know

0:12:58.679 --> 0:13:02.240
<v Speaker 2>how it happened, But talking to the wind shop ery

0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:04.800
<v Speaker 2>later later, he said he lost sight of me because

0:13:04.800 --> 0:13:06.720
<v Speaker 2>I'd gone underneath the aircraft, so he didn't know where

0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:10.040
<v Speaker 2>I was, and he just pulled in the cable, which

0:13:10.160 --> 0:13:12.080
<v Speaker 2>in the cable because I would have been like pulling

0:13:12.080 --> 0:13:13.760
<v Speaker 2>in the fish. I suppose I was on the end

0:13:13.760 --> 0:13:17.640
<v Speaker 2>of it, and then I appeared. So I got dragged

0:13:17.640 --> 0:13:20.160
<v Speaker 2>out of the water, got my breath back. And the

0:13:20.240 --> 0:13:22.640
<v Speaker 2>plan was that I had said to the wind shop rider,

0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:25.520
<v Speaker 2>and he agreed that if we couldn't get back on

0:13:25.559 --> 0:13:27.559
<v Speaker 2>the boat, that would go on the water. Right, So

0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:29.920
<v Speaker 2>I knew he was going to have another attent, but

0:13:29.960 --> 0:13:31.400
<v Speaker 2>not on the boat. He was going to put it

0:13:31.520 --> 0:13:33.320
<v Speaker 2>back in the water next to the yacht. So and

0:13:33.400 --> 0:13:36.360
<v Speaker 2>that's what he did. So by that time By the

0:13:36.400 --> 0:13:38.680
<v Speaker 2>time I was going back in the water, right next

0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:41.680
<v Speaker 2>to the back of the boat, the sailor had come out.

0:13:42.080 --> 0:13:44.160
<v Speaker 2>And what had happened is he didn't get the message

0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:47.560
<v Speaker 2>to us pulled the vowels when he saw us, so

0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:49.959
<v Speaker 2>he actually returned into the yacht to pull the vowels.

0:13:49.960 --> 0:13:51.280
<v Speaker 2>And that's what the delay.

0:13:51.200 --> 0:13:52.480
<v Speaker 1>Was, right, Okay.

0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:55.920
<v Speaker 2>So I was next to the yacht sort of making

0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:57.800
<v Speaker 2>sure that it wasn't going to smack me in the head,

0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:00.040
<v Speaker 2>but it was thrown around by waves and had to

0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:02.679
<v Speaker 2>call him in. And the look on his face when

0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:04.520
<v Speaker 2>I said he was seventy two years old, it's like

0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:07.559
<v Speaker 2>he was a ship's captain on supertankers. He built the

0:14:07.640 --> 0:14:09.640
<v Speaker 2>yacht and sailed the soil around the world and this

0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:12.120
<v Speaker 2>is his last stop. And the look on his face

0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:13.960
<v Speaker 2>was pure terror. I said, you got to get in there.

0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:15.960
<v Speaker 2>I yelled at it him get in the water, and

0:14:15.960 --> 0:14:18.640
<v Speaker 2>he didn't want to go. And I remember seeing him

0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:21.800
<v Speaker 2>just holding onto the railing, shaken, so he didn't want

0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:23.160
<v Speaker 2>to get on the water, and I said, you got

0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:26.400
<v Speaker 2>to get a woman now because I'm gone, and he did,

0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:30.320
<v Speaker 2>thank god. We very quickly with the waves drifted back

0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:33.120
<v Speaker 2>around behind the boat, so I put the strap iron

0:14:33.240 --> 0:14:35.160
<v Speaker 2>kept him up and put the stop and put his

0:14:35.280 --> 0:14:37.800
<v Speaker 2>arms under it, grabbed it, and right then we got

0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:42.240
<v Speaker 2>hit by another wave that forced us both under. Unfortunately,

0:14:42.240 --> 0:14:44.200
<v Speaker 2>that's a chest strap that we do up to make

0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:46.160
<v Speaker 2>sure that they don't slip out, and I hadn't got

0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:49.560
<v Speaker 2>a chance to do that up. Wy've come through and

0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:52.720
<v Speaker 2>we sort of although we're tied together, I lost hold

0:14:52.720 --> 0:14:56.160
<v Speaker 2>of him just as that happened. The wave went and

0:14:56.240 --> 0:14:58.600
<v Speaker 2>the helicopter move and we got pulled out of the water.

0:14:59.040 --> 0:15:02.200
<v Speaker 2>You know, he under normal conditions, his head should be

0:15:02.200 --> 0:15:06.000
<v Speaker 2>sitting at my chest typed because the arrival the people

0:15:06.080 --> 0:15:09.560
<v Speaker 2>reaching it lower. But for some reason he was higher

0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:12.720
<v Speaker 2>than me. And what happened strop had slipped down under

0:15:12.760 --> 0:15:14.520
<v Speaker 2>his bum and he was sitting on it like a swing.

0:15:14.960 --> 0:15:17.000
<v Speaker 2>And then he was holding onto the wire, which is

0:15:18.440 --> 0:15:22.560
<v Speaker 2>the first situation slipped and falling backwards. His leg had

0:15:22.640 --> 0:15:25.280
<v Speaker 2>kicked me under the arm and I grabbed hold of it.

0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:28.840
<v Speaker 2>So he was hanging outside down in his harness. And

0:15:28.920 --> 0:15:31.640
<v Speaker 2>the normal procedure would be there to signal to the

0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:33.400
<v Speaker 2>wind chopper I put you back in the water, but

0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:36.520
<v Speaker 2>I couldn't because of my hands full. It took a while.

0:15:36.600 --> 0:15:38.840
<v Speaker 2>The wind shopper I realized what was going on and

0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:40.360
<v Speaker 2>he put me back in the water, which is not

0:15:40.400 --> 0:15:42.760
<v Speaker 2>really really what I wanted to do, but it did it.

0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:44.920
<v Speaker 2>And they put me back in the water, and I

0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:46.840
<v Speaker 2>managed to get the harness back on him and the

0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:50.120
<v Speaker 2>chest strap and then give the wind CHOPPERO signal to

0:15:50.120 --> 0:15:51.800
<v Speaker 2>get us out of here, and they pulled us up,

0:15:52.080 --> 0:15:55.800
<v Speaker 2>and I was I remember talking filminch operator about this

0:15:55.880 --> 0:15:59.200
<v Speaker 2>that I reunion that long ao and he said that

0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:01.640
<v Speaker 2>trip back was the quietest time I've ever had a

0:16:01.640 --> 0:16:04.800
<v Speaker 2>helicopter because no one saying a word. And I remember thinking,

0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:06.280
<v Speaker 2>I'm taking a job somewhere else.

0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:08.480
<v Speaker 1>That was the catalyst for.

0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:12.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that was it funny. I thought I got away

0:16:12.040 --> 0:16:14.200
<v Speaker 2>with that, and I thought, well, you know, maybe the

0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:16.600
<v Speaker 2>next one I won't be so lucky. And it was

0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:18.720
<v Speaker 2>that pretty much that job that maybe decide to take

0:16:18.760 --> 0:16:20.520
<v Speaker 2>the job at Federal Boys.

0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:24.760
<v Speaker 1>I that just unpacking that for a bit, like I

0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:27.960
<v Speaker 1>suppose the longer and I know people that have been

0:16:28.000 --> 0:16:33.040
<v Speaker 1>in dangerous professions, whether the forces all different things, and

0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:36.000
<v Speaker 1>they wonder if they've rolled the dice too many times,

0:16:36.040 --> 0:16:38.760
<v Speaker 1>almost like an epiphany for you at that point in time. Well,

0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:40.920
<v Speaker 1>I got to escape that one, and I'm going to

0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:41.840
<v Speaker 1>be lucky the next time.

0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:46.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I remember getting home and my partner said, what

0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:51.280
<v Speaker 2>do you do today? I said, I had this job. Yeah, yeah,

0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:53.720
<v Speaker 2>you're setting a message now. Apparently I can't remember doing this,

0:16:53.760 --> 0:16:55.600
<v Speaker 2>but I've been center a message on a fine saying

0:16:55.760 --> 0:16:58.160
<v Speaker 2>heading out their backs straight to winch this idiot off

0:16:58.160 --> 0:17:02.440
<v Speaker 2>the yacht, something like don't hurry, I'll contact you service.

0:17:03.040 --> 0:17:05.800
<v Speaker 2>No I did that. Yeah, I must have seen the weather.

0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:07.600
<v Speaker 2>I thought I was better say something, and I told

0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:09.840
<v Speaker 2>her that night. I said I'd already applied for the

0:17:09.840 --> 0:17:13.000
<v Speaker 2>ob and they was snipping around. But I never accepted

0:17:13.000 --> 0:17:16.480
<v Speaker 2>any roles for them because I made a transfer joined

0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:18.360
<v Speaker 2>there and said you should try it, and I did,

0:17:18.400 --> 0:17:20.560
<v Speaker 2>but they never had any roles that I like. And

0:17:20.600 --> 0:17:24.000
<v Speaker 2>I actually discussed it with my partner and said, whatever

0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:25.480
<v Speaker 2>the next door there is, I'm taking.

0:17:26.119 --> 0:17:29.280
<v Speaker 1>And you just thought after that that rescue, that that

0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:30.160
<v Speaker 1>was enough for you.

0:17:30.160 --> 0:17:33.280
<v Speaker 2>In the Yeah, it was, ugh. I think you know,

0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:35.680
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I think so's you know, you can go

0:17:35.720 --> 0:17:39.359
<v Speaker 2>through your police aviation career without ever doing something like that,

0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:42.800
<v Speaker 2>And you know I've had I had some reasonably dangerous

0:17:42.840 --> 0:17:45.800
<v Speaker 2>ones over the years, but that one just took the cake.

0:17:46.040 --> 0:17:49.560
<v Speaker 1>When you said that trip back in the helicopter was

0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:53.160
<v Speaker 1>one of the most silent. Did the person who rescued

0:17:53.240 --> 0:17:56.440
<v Speaker 1>thank you? Or was he he said thanks for the left?

0:17:57.280 --> 0:18:00.320
<v Speaker 2>Poor bugger was soaken wet I tell this story book.

0:18:01.160 --> 0:18:03.840
<v Speaker 2>Funny thing was we got him a shower, and I

0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:07.440
<v Speaker 2>knew the crewman because we pulled up at another private helicopter

0:18:07.440 --> 0:18:10.120
<v Speaker 2>base and I knew the guys the helicopter. So can

0:18:10.160 --> 0:18:12.440
<v Speaker 2>you get this guy some clothes and underwear and dry

0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:14.679
<v Speaker 2>clothes so they could pull all his clothes together, and

0:18:14.720 --> 0:18:17.080
<v Speaker 2>all we could find this poor yacht was lacy underwear.

0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:22.400
<v Speaker 2>The poor guy had walked away from the helicopter base

0:18:22.680 --> 0:18:27.560
<v Speaker 2>at Essenon with his poor tite between his legs. I

0:18:27.640 --> 0:18:30.320
<v Speaker 2>sort of felt sorry for him in a way. The

0:18:30.680 --> 0:18:33.360
<v Speaker 2>poor bugger had lost his life savings, all his retirement

0:18:33.359 --> 0:18:34.040
<v Speaker 2>money in his yacht.

0:18:36.840 --> 0:18:39.720
<v Speaker 1>What what you had seen and done? And we'll talk

0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:45.160
<v Speaker 1>the AFP then delve deeper into the PTSD. But at

0:18:45.160 --> 0:18:48.600
<v Speaker 1>that point in time, were you you thinking you'll find

0:18:48.640 --> 0:18:50.879
<v Speaker 1>with this? It was sort of well physically, I mean,

0:18:51.000 --> 0:18:53.560
<v Speaker 1>in one piece like this hasn't taken a toll on me.

0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:56.879
<v Speaker 2>Look, I remember this. It was six months before I

0:18:56.960 --> 0:19:00.680
<v Speaker 2>resigned and took up the position the under that job,

0:19:01.560 --> 0:19:03.680
<v Speaker 2>and in that six months I just did not want

0:19:03.720 --> 0:19:06.800
<v Speaker 2>to fly. I lost all motivation to fly. I didn't

0:19:06.880 --> 0:19:10.200
<v Speaker 2>think that was abnormal. Yeah, that's probably a normal response.

0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:12.200
<v Speaker 2>I made the decision I was going to go, that's

0:19:12.200 --> 0:19:15.520
<v Speaker 2>where do you want to fly? But in hindsight, losing

0:19:15.600 --> 0:19:18.359
<v Speaker 2>total motivation for what you've been doing for fourteen years

0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:22.359
<v Speaker 2>is definitely a symptom of PTSD. But I certainly didn't

0:19:22.400 --> 0:19:24.840
<v Speaker 2>know that at the time. But then again, I have

0:19:24.920 --> 0:19:28.399
<v Speaker 2>had symptoms of PTSD prior to doing that job. I

0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:33.800
<v Speaker 2>used to blame my insomnia on working shiftwork. But if

0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:36.000
<v Speaker 2>I look back in hindsight, the first five or six

0:19:36.160 --> 0:19:38.640
<v Speaker 2>years or eight years of shiftwork, I slept like a lot.

0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:42.440
<v Speaker 2>Now it's only towards fifteen twenty years in the job

0:19:42.480 --> 0:19:43.480
<v Speaker 2>that I couldn't sleep at all.

0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:47.000
<v Speaker 1>Okay, the AFP, you've gone across to the AFP. What

0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:51.160
<v Speaker 1>roles were you doing in the AFP? So to explain

0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:53.480
<v Speaker 1>the people that are not for me with the policing

0:19:53.560 --> 0:19:58.760
<v Speaker 1>organizations you've had to resign from Victoria Police apply for

0:19:58.880 --> 0:20:01.760
<v Speaker 1>the AFP, you get excit in there. Do you have

0:20:01.800 --> 0:20:04.480
<v Speaker 1>to go through the academy, start basic training and all that?

0:20:04.680 --> 0:20:06.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I had to do the whole riguma role. So

0:20:06.880 --> 0:20:11.119
<v Speaker 2>there was an interview. Back then, there wasn't a lot

0:20:11.200 --> 0:20:15.800
<v Speaker 2>of lateral entry police going over within any police force,

0:20:16.560 --> 0:20:18.199
<v Speaker 2>so a lot of the people had to actually go

0:20:18.320 --> 0:20:20.000
<v Speaker 2>back to the academy. They didn't sort of have any

0:20:20.040 --> 0:20:22.920
<v Speaker 2>recognition for prior learning, and I suppose they can't because

0:20:22.960 --> 0:20:26.240
<v Speaker 2>procedurally it's totally different. Police work never changes no matter

0:20:26.240 --> 0:20:30.120
<v Speaker 2>who you work for, but procedurally it's different. So they

0:20:31.040 --> 0:20:34.879
<v Speaker 2>had made us an offer that I sign up for

0:20:34.880 --> 0:20:37.600
<v Speaker 2>a minimum of two years that within that two years

0:20:37.640 --> 0:20:41.080
<v Speaker 2>they were going to train us. Because the whole squad

0:20:41.080 --> 0:20:44.800
<v Speaker 2>went over. They picked about two squads of thirty or

0:20:44.800 --> 0:20:47.600
<v Speaker 2>twenty five or thirty from around the country, and I

0:20:47.680 --> 0:20:48.600
<v Speaker 2>was included in that.

0:20:48.760 --> 0:20:52.800
<v Speaker 1>When you say go over, is this for the.

0:20:51.960 --> 0:20:55.119
<v Speaker 2>Going over to the AFP, we had to go to camera.

0:20:55.160 --> 0:21:00.320
<v Speaker 2>We had to do a abbreviated academy course a nine

0:21:00.359 --> 0:21:03.600
<v Speaker 2>week period and that was a combination of what they

0:21:03.640 --> 0:21:07.600
<v Speaker 2>call their Federal Police Program, which is for national investigations,

0:21:08.160 --> 0:21:12.600
<v Speaker 2>and their policing program for ACPT Policing or uniform Policing CANbus,

0:21:12.600 --> 0:21:16.600
<v Speaker 2>so we did an amalgamation of both. They also in

0:21:16.600 --> 0:21:20.639
<v Speaker 2>that training program send us to peacekeeping school so we

0:21:20.640 --> 0:21:23.199
<v Speaker 2>can deploy overseas, and part of that agreement was that

0:21:23.200 --> 0:21:26.399
<v Speaker 2>once we graduated, we would spend three months in Canberra

0:21:26.560 --> 0:21:30.040
<v Speaker 2>uniform and then we're overseas for two years. The various

0:21:30.040 --> 0:21:33.280
<v Speaker 2>deployments around around the world, and that appealed to me

0:21:34.080 --> 0:21:37.199
<v Speaker 2>having a father that was first in the military in

0:21:37.280 --> 0:21:41.240
<v Speaker 2>Malaya and then the Air Force and moving around. I

0:21:41.240 --> 0:21:44.120
<v Speaker 2>thought I wouldn't do it with the kids, but I'll

0:21:44.119 --> 0:21:46.359
<v Speaker 2>certainly do it what I don't have kids, So yeah,

0:21:46.359 --> 0:21:50.040
<v Speaker 2>I took the job. And the first deployment was well

0:21:50.160 --> 0:21:52.520
<v Speaker 2>after three months in Camber, which is probably the longest

0:21:52.520 --> 0:21:54.800
<v Speaker 2>three months of my work, going back to uniform after

0:21:55.200 --> 0:21:58.800
<v Speaker 2>lying around in other coppers, especially in Canberra, probably rather

0:21:58.840 --> 0:22:02.520
<v Speaker 2>have my tens pulled down. I suffered through that and

0:22:02.600 --> 0:22:04.960
<v Speaker 2>the gift at the end was I got deployed to

0:22:05.560 --> 0:22:07.159
<v Speaker 2>Solomon Islands.

0:22:06.640 --> 0:22:09.199
<v Speaker 1>And what was the role there in Solomon Islands and

0:22:09.200 --> 0:22:10.760
<v Speaker 1>what was the situation there?

0:22:10.960 --> 0:22:13.280
<v Speaker 2>It was rebuilding their police force and what happened in

0:22:13.280 --> 0:22:15.600
<v Speaker 2>the Solomon Islands. There was a lot of tribal fighting

0:22:15.680 --> 0:22:19.639
<v Speaker 2>between gangs, tribal gangs in the north of the island

0:22:19.640 --> 0:22:23.480
<v Speaker 2>and lighter with tribal gangs on the island of guadal Canal,

0:22:23.520 --> 0:22:25.560
<v Speaker 2>which is the main island. They were fighting. They're actually

0:22:25.600 --> 0:22:28.479
<v Speaker 2>killing each other their salt weapons and shotguns and knives

0:22:28.520 --> 0:22:31.639
<v Speaker 2>and machetes, and there was a heap of islands and

0:22:31.680 --> 0:22:35.920
<v Speaker 2>a heap of people dying. Unfortunately, the police force over

0:22:35.920 --> 0:22:39.679
<v Speaker 2>there was ineffective because they too had in fighting between

0:22:39.880 --> 0:22:42.959
<v Speaker 2>people that were enlightened and people that they called GUARDI.

0:22:44.359 --> 0:22:46.920
<v Speaker 2>So the Australian government set a contingent of police over

0:22:46.920 --> 0:22:50.080
<v Speaker 2>there in two thousand and three. I think I don't

0:22:50.080 --> 0:22:51.960
<v Speaker 2>know how they did it, but the commanding Office the

0:22:52.000 --> 0:22:54.360
<v Speaker 2>AFP managed most of them to give up their guns

0:22:55.200 --> 0:22:58.520
<v Speaker 2>right and then it was a slow rebuilding process to

0:22:58.640 --> 0:23:02.720
<v Speaker 2>retrain their police and rebuild it and also to hunt

0:23:02.720 --> 0:23:06.240
<v Speaker 2>down the people responsible for some of the violence over

0:23:06.280 --> 0:23:07.600
<v Speaker 2>the when they had the warfare.

0:23:08.320 --> 0:23:10.800
<v Speaker 1>How long were you over there for look?

0:23:10.840 --> 0:23:15.639
<v Speaker 2>I was in and out of the Solomon Islands regularly

0:23:16.119 --> 0:23:19.400
<v Speaker 2>from two thousand and six to twenty eleven. The longest

0:23:19.480 --> 0:23:22.920
<v Speaker 2>deployment was four months. The shortest was two weeks.

0:23:23.200 --> 0:23:26.160
<v Speaker 1>And what sort of conditions were you living in over there?

0:23:26.520 --> 0:23:30.040
<v Speaker 2>We had a base at the base was we called

0:23:30.040 --> 0:23:33.520
<v Speaker 2>it the guadal Canal Beach Resort. It's not a resort.

0:23:33.960 --> 0:23:36.000
<v Speaker 2>It was near Henderson Field, the old World War two

0:23:36.359 --> 0:23:38.840
<v Speaker 2>airfield that Japanese occupied for years in World War two.

0:23:39.720 --> 0:23:41.600
<v Speaker 2>So it was about fifteen minute drive out of town.

0:23:41.920 --> 0:23:43.840
<v Speaker 2>And we had what we lived in what were called itses.

0:23:43.920 --> 0:23:47.399
<v Speaker 2>So there was a mate of like a insulated aluminium

0:23:47.400 --> 0:23:50.840
<v Speaker 2>with home between it just very simply riveted together. Had

0:23:50.840 --> 0:23:54.000
<v Speaker 2>an incondition of two beds, power socket and we lived there,

0:23:54.400 --> 0:23:57.560
<v Speaker 2>shared shared rooms and what we do most of the

0:23:57.640 --> 0:24:01.359
<v Speaker 2>day depending on what job you had, because everyone got

0:24:01.359 --> 0:24:03.600
<v Speaker 2>a different job. Like the police force, you don't necessarily

0:24:03.600 --> 0:24:06.040
<v Speaker 2>do uniform policing. You might be doing HR you might

0:24:06.080 --> 0:24:08.520
<v Speaker 2>be training in the academy, and each day you're go

0:24:08.600 --> 0:24:11.560
<v Speaker 2>and do your job. And that was for me for

0:24:11.640 --> 0:24:17.280
<v Speaker 2>the first stint four months, I was shadowing staff officer

0:24:17.400 --> 0:24:21.919
<v Speaker 2>to the Commissioner in charge of Special Operations for the

0:24:21.920 --> 0:24:26.960
<v Speaker 2>simmon On's Police. So I was his mentor and my boss,

0:24:27.240 --> 0:24:30.800
<v Speaker 2>my feed boss, was mentoring his boss, the commissioner.

0:24:31.160 --> 0:24:33.320
<v Speaker 1>How did you get caught up in the riots there.

0:24:33.600 --> 0:24:36.040
<v Speaker 2>There was really no choice, I suppose. I mean, what

0:24:36.160 --> 0:24:40.520
<v Speaker 2>happened was, it was two thousand and six. It was

0:24:40.640 --> 0:24:43.399
<v Speaker 2>accusations that I think of the Prime Minister at the

0:24:43.440 --> 0:24:46.000
<v Speaker 2>time of Snyder Renny or something, and there was accuvidations

0:24:46.000 --> 0:24:49.040
<v Speaker 2>that he was funded by the Chinese, he was corrupt.

0:24:49.080 --> 0:24:51.720
<v Speaker 2>And what happened was the locals weren't happy with that,

0:24:52.200 --> 0:24:55.879
<v Speaker 2>so they stormed Parliament House and a riot started. It

0:24:56.040 --> 0:25:00.320
<v Speaker 2>was all hands on deck, so every sworn member the

0:25:01.560 --> 0:25:05.200
<v Speaker 2>contingent there, which also included New Zealand compers as well,

0:25:05.480 --> 0:25:07.320
<v Speaker 2>had to dress up and right gear and had out

0:25:07.359 --> 0:25:10.840
<v Speaker 2>and tackle the rioters. They locked the base down and

0:25:11.400 --> 0:25:14.160
<v Speaker 2>we were given the cars and some very archaic right

0:25:14.200 --> 0:25:17.240
<v Speaker 2>gear told to go and fix the issue. And what

0:25:17.359 --> 0:25:20.479
<v Speaker 2>happened was that the gangs had started burning police cars

0:25:20.520 --> 0:25:24.160
<v Speaker 2>and burning shops up near the Parliament House. They wanted

0:25:24.160 --> 0:25:27.480
<v Speaker 2>their way down the hill about three o'clock there in

0:25:27.520 --> 0:25:31.679
<v Speaker 2>the main town, cutting that blooting shops. They worked their

0:25:31.720 --> 0:25:34.560
<v Speaker 2>way down. When we got there, there was I got

0:25:34.560 --> 0:25:37.600
<v Speaker 2>there was cars on fire and thins on fire, crap

0:25:37.640 --> 0:25:41.359
<v Speaker 2>everywhere and breaken windows, and they worked their way into Chinatown,

0:25:41.400 --> 0:25:44.880
<v Speaker 2>which is a small section in Honiara and play back

0:25:44.920 --> 0:25:47.800
<v Speaker 2>to Chinese. So they bought burnt down basically every Chinese

0:25:47.800 --> 0:25:49.960
<v Speaker 2>building in Chinatown.

0:25:49.560 --> 0:25:53.359
<v Speaker 1>And that that got fairly intensive. Police being injured and

0:25:53.600 --> 0:25:56.760
<v Speaker 1>your right shield being cracked and we.

0:25:56.840 --> 0:25:59.280
<v Speaker 2>Have nine seventies right shields that they've been in the

0:25:59.359 --> 0:26:04.919
<v Speaker 2>sun too long and shadow when a rock hit Him've

0:26:04.960 --> 0:26:07.040
<v Speaker 2>got to give credit to the people that writing they

0:26:07.040 --> 0:26:10.159
<v Speaker 2>were really good rock throwers. Just remember the amount of

0:26:10.200 --> 0:26:13.159
<v Speaker 2>rocks beIN throwner. So I remember our car. The first

0:26:13.200 --> 0:26:16.280
<v Speaker 2>car I had the first day. One was brand new

0:26:16.640 --> 0:26:19.920
<v Speaker 2>Toyota ball drive and that ended up on the main hole.

0:26:19.960 --> 0:26:22.359
<v Speaker 2>I burned to the crown and I think it had

0:26:22.400 --> 0:26:26.080
<v Speaker 2>eight thousand k's on it. The second one was also

0:26:26.200 --> 0:26:28.240
<v Speaker 2>brand new, and that didn't have a panel or window

0:26:28.320 --> 0:26:30.800
<v Speaker 2>left handed eight hours later.

0:26:30.760 --> 0:26:35.280
<v Speaker 1>It's another of joined the police, see the world, all

0:26:35.359 --> 0:26:40.119
<v Speaker 1>the different experiences you can get. You you've also found

0:26:40.119 --> 0:26:45.720
<v Speaker 1>yourself over in christ Church after the earthquakes, a humanitarian operation.

0:26:46.000 --> 0:26:47.320
<v Speaker 1>What was your role there?

0:26:47.960 --> 0:26:50.560
<v Speaker 2>That was just to restore the policing in christ Church

0:26:50.560 --> 0:26:53.119
<v Speaker 2>because after that massive earthquake that killed I think it

0:26:53.200 --> 0:26:56.560
<v Speaker 2>killed like two hundred people, Yeah, and it devastated christ Church,

0:26:56.640 --> 0:26:59.600
<v Speaker 2>and I think the report was that eighty percent of

0:26:59.600 --> 0:27:02.840
<v Speaker 2>the police ice force had been had either lost someone

0:27:02.920 --> 0:27:06.400
<v Speaker 2>or lost a house or been affected by the earthquake.

0:27:06.480 --> 0:27:10.400
<v Speaker 2>So the police force was struggling and they had sent

0:27:10.880 --> 0:27:13.959
<v Speaker 2>other coppers from the Northern Ireland and the South Island

0:27:13.960 --> 0:27:15.960
<v Speaker 2>to christ Church to help, but it wasn't enough. So

0:27:16.560 --> 0:27:18.840
<v Speaker 2>I think there was about a total of two hundred

0:27:18.840 --> 0:27:21.959
<v Speaker 2>Australian ployees that landed there within a couple of days.

0:27:22.480 --> 0:27:25.159
<v Speaker 2>I was there within about ten days and it was

0:27:25.200 --> 0:27:29.639
<v Speaker 2>really to augbouent the police force. I don't think most

0:27:29.680 --> 0:27:33.800
<v Speaker 2>people realized the sergifican damage of that earthquake. They had

0:27:33.800 --> 0:27:35.879
<v Speaker 2>an earthquake a couple either year or a couple of

0:27:35.920 --> 0:27:38.239
<v Speaker 2>years before, and they learned their lesson because people were

0:27:38.280 --> 0:27:42.880
<v Speaker 2>running right, they had media everywhere, getting themselves in trouble

0:27:43.080 --> 0:27:47.080
<v Speaker 2>around buildings and the places where they shouldn't be. So

0:27:47.240 --> 0:27:50.359
<v Speaker 2>during after this earthquake, being well experienced in it, they

0:27:50.480 --> 0:27:55.879
<v Speaker 2>completely fenced off the whole Central Business District block and

0:27:55.920 --> 0:27:59.119
<v Speaker 2>they only allowed the media in three or four spots.

0:27:59.720 --> 0:28:03.359
<v Speaker 2>When sitting in Australia and you're watching this devastation of

0:28:03.400 --> 0:28:06.240
<v Speaker 2>this earthquake, you only got to see three buildings. There

0:28:06.280 --> 0:28:09.840
<v Speaker 2>was a major building in town, and I think they

0:28:09.840 --> 0:28:13.920
<v Speaker 2>included a television broadcast. But you know, to be honest,

0:28:13.960 --> 0:28:17.000
<v Speaker 2>I thought it wasn't that bad. You know, three buildings damage,

0:28:17.000 --> 0:28:19.560
<v Speaker 2>what's the problem. But when I got there and saw it,

0:28:19.680 --> 0:28:22.440
<v Speaker 2>the whole town was flat. I've got an aerial photo

0:28:22.480 --> 0:28:27.320
<v Speaker 2>of it somewhere, and really the TV coverage was very,

0:28:27.440 --> 0:28:30.639
<v Speaker 2>very limited. This place was you know, there was a

0:28:30.680 --> 0:28:33.120
<v Speaker 2>tram there. The tram tracks were buckled in the middle

0:28:33.160 --> 0:28:36.640
<v Speaker 2>of the city. I remembered seeing car. They had this

0:28:37.320 --> 0:28:40.760
<v Speaker 2>with an called liquor faction. The liquor faction is like

0:28:40.800 --> 0:28:42.520
<v Speaker 2>if you know where you're getting set in concrete and

0:28:42.600 --> 0:28:44.600
<v Speaker 2>the water starts fighting the top of the sediment sits

0:28:44.640 --> 0:28:47.200
<v Speaker 2>on the top. That's what liquor faction is. So the

0:28:47.280 --> 0:28:50.800
<v Speaker 2>vibration of the land during the earthquake, of the land

0:28:50.880 --> 0:28:53.800
<v Speaker 2>that christ Shirts was built on was an old river bed,

0:28:54.280 --> 0:28:56.240
<v Speaker 2>so all the liquid had come to the surface, and

0:28:56.280 --> 0:29:00.000
<v Speaker 2>this liquid faction was like gray sludge that it actually

0:29:01.160 --> 0:29:06.400
<v Speaker 2>broken through the slabs of houses and swallowed cars. Right,

0:29:07.040 --> 0:29:10.440
<v Speaker 2>So you drive down the road in christ Church and

0:29:10.640 --> 0:29:13.680
<v Speaker 2>there's a major crack in the ground and the car

0:29:13.760 --> 0:29:17.479
<v Speaker 2>consumed by this gray, messive looking faction. There were whole

0:29:17.560 --> 0:29:22.920
<v Speaker 2>suburbs that were clientless because houses had significant structural damage

0:29:22.920 --> 0:29:25.200
<v Speaker 2>and could we lived in. There was a whole ghost suburb.

0:29:25.360 --> 0:29:27.440
<v Speaker 2>It's just an amazing the amount of damage that we

0:29:27.520 --> 0:29:28.240
<v Speaker 2>didn't know about.

0:29:28.840 --> 0:29:32.120
<v Speaker 1>What you what you're describing talking your career, and you know,

0:29:32.480 --> 0:29:36.160
<v Speaker 1>we've taken you from scary alcol It, scary rescue in

0:29:37.000 --> 0:29:42.640
<v Speaker 1>bas Strait, You've Solomon Islands and an experience there and

0:29:42.800 --> 0:29:47.240
<v Speaker 1>understanding different issues in different places across the world, looking

0:29:47.240 --> 0:29:52.040
<v Speaker 1>at natural disasters. It's like to me advertisement for policing,

0:29:52.200 --> 0:29:54.320
<v Speaker 1>and then we can throw in the mix that with

0:29:54.440 --> 0:29:59.280
<v Speaker 1>the AFP, you were doing some investigation work drugs, international

0:29:59.360 --> 0:30:01.560
<v Speaker 1>drug import and different things like that.

0:30:01.760 --> 0:30:04.560
<v Speaker 2>Twenty eleven, I transferred out of the section that I

0:30:04.600 --> 0:30:08.880
<v Speaker 2>was working in that did overseas deployments, peacekeeping and also

0:30:08.960 --> 0:30:13.480
<v Speaker 2>the humanitarian stuff, and I went into investigations. It was

0:30:13.520 --> 0:30:15.360
<v Speaker 2>not really by choice, It's just that the office that

0:30:15.400 --> 0:30:17.600
<v Speaker 2>I was working was moving to camera and I didn't

0:30:17.640 --> 0:30:20.040
<v Speaker 2>move the camera. And it sort of reset my career

0:30:20.080 --> 0:30:22.520
<v Speaker 2>a bit because it sort of went back about twenty

0:30:22.560 --> 0:30:25.600
<v Speaker 2>five years to when I was almost considering becoming a

0:30:25.640 --> 0:30:30.400
<v Speaker 2>detective at it's play station, but a major career move

0:30:30.480 --> 0:30:34.600
<v Speaker 2>and reinventing, to say the least, going from a career

0:30:34.680 --> 0:30:39.040
<v Speaker 2>that was out of investigations or police work since nineteen

0:30:39.120 --> 0:30:43.120
<v Speaker 2>ninety two and in twenty eleven found myself an investigations team.

0:30:43.600 --> 0:30:45.200
<v Speaker 1>How do you enjoy that?

0:30:45.680 --> 0:30:47.800
<v Speaker 2>Look? To start, I didn't. I was a fish out

0:30:47.800 --> 0:30:52.320
<v Speaker 2>of water. Like I said before, when I last did

0:30:52.360 --> 0:30:55.760
<v Speaker 2>an investigation shop with a plane closing unit. We had typewriters,

0:30:56.040 --> 0:30:58.800
<v Speaker 2>no photocopies. We used to use carbon paper and paper

0:30:59.360 --> 0:31:00.680
<v Speaker 2>we get more or phones.

0:31:01.360 --> 0:31:04.560
<v Speaker 1>I can imagine, and looking at the diversity of your career,

0:31:04.760 --> 0:31:08.560
<v Speaker 1>especially your time in the air wing. No, we don't fly.

0:31:09.000 --> 0:31:11.200
<v Speaker 1>You've got to drive. That would have been hard for

0:31:11.280 --> 0:31:12.240
<v Speaker 1>you to come to terms with.

0:31:12.800 --> 0:31:14.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, yeah, I got to drive.

0:31:14.560 --> 0:31:18.000
<v Speaker 1>A car, which destination that I go into overseas? Now

0:31:18.000 --> 0:31:20.400
<v Speaker 1>you're working working here in Australia, so there would have

0:31:20.400 --> 0:31:22.680
<v Speaker 1>been a few adjustments. And then those things that they

0:31:22.760 --> 0:31:25.280
<v Speaker 1>call computers that you never thought they'd catch on a

0:31:26.280 --> 0:31:27.560
<v Speaker 1>front and center in your office.

0:31:27.640 --> 0:31:30.080
<v Speaker 2>Amazing things. And a photo copy that can runs many

0:31:30.200 --> 0:31:31.560
<v Speaker 2>copies as you want any color.

0:31:31.720 --> 0:31:34.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I can tell an old cop if I speak

0:31:34.120 --> 0:31:36.760
<v Speaker 1>to them if they complain about the phaeo copies. You know,

0:31:36.840 --> 0:31:40.480
<v Speaker 1>when we used to type up those documents, like the

0:31:40.560 --> 0:31:44.800
<v Speaker 1>fact sheets or whatever with the carbon paper. If you

0:31:44.880 --> 0:31:46.680
<v Speaker 1>made a mistake, you had to go through with the

0:31:46.720 --> 0:31:49.520
<v Speaker 1>tip X and correct it all on the manual typewriters

0:31:49.560 --> 0:31:51.680
<v Speaker 1>and then the fade out copier in the police station.

0:31:51.760 --> 0:31:54.120
<v Speaker 1>I don't think there was one police station in Australia

0:31:54.200 --> 0:31:56.560
<v Speaker 1>that the fade out copier wasn't continually broken.

0:31:56.640 --> 0:31:59.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Do you remember getting the old typewriter and had

0:31:59.080 --> 0:32:01.680
<v Speaker 2>to smash down the He's so hard to get through

0:32:01.720 --> 0:32:05.960
<v Speaker 2>five layers of carbon paper. Yeah, amazing. And then when

0:32:05.960 --> 0:32:08.640
<v Speaker 2>you got this and I remember thinking, you know, I

0:32:08.640 --> 0:32:12.080
<v Speaker 2>remember getting to my first investigations team. There was this

0:32:12.160 --> 0:32:15.080
<v Speaker 2>young guy there'd just been a few years out of

0:32:15.080 --> 0:32:17.560
<v Speaker 2>the academy and I thought, boy, when I joined the

0:32:17.640 --> 0:32:19.200
<v Speaker 2>job and wear a uniform, I think he was a

0:32:19.320 --> 0:32:22.160
<v Speaker 2>nappies But he was on this computer tapping out this

0:32:22.200 --> 0:32:25.040
<v Speaker 2>AFFI David, and I thought, what have I done?

0:32:25.840 --> 0:32:27.760
<v Speaker 1>It would have would have been hard for it, but

0:32:27.800 --> 0:32:30.800
<v Speaker 1>you got yourself in some interesting jobs. You were what

0:32:30.880 --> 0:32:35.440
<v Speaker 1>was that drug case where the drugs have been swapped

0:32:35.480 --> 0:32:37.720
<v Speaker 1>by the police and you're driving the driving the truck

0:32:37.760 --> 0:32:39.640
<v Speaker 1>and delivering it to the bad guys? What was that

0:32:39.680 --> 0:32:40.160
<v Speaker 1>one about?

0:32:40.280 --> 0:32:42.280
<v Speaker 2>So I was working on a team that just did

0:32:42.400 --> 0:32:46.680
<v Speaker 2>whatever drug importations come in or the job we're investigating.

0:32:47.160 --> 0:32:49.240
<v Speaker 2>And because I was such a fishient out of the water,

0:32:49.280 --> 0:32:54.320
<v Speaker 2>I volunteered for the stuff that wasn't process driven because

0:32:54.360 --> 0:32:59.080
<v Speaker 2>I didn't know the process. What happened was a chipping

0:32:59.120 --> 0:33:02.960
<v Speaker 2>camplainer came in. They had some information and they looked

0:33:02.960 --> 0:33:06.360
<v Speaker 2>at the container and found that it had eight ride

0:33:06.400 --> 0:33:08.320
<v Speaker 2>on wal mars In crates and hid none of the

0:33:08.320 --> 0:33:12.520
<v Speaker 2>crates was packs in a total of two hundred and

0:33:12.520 --> 0:33:16.520
<v Speaker 2>seventy something kilos of compressed cocaine. Usually what happened would

0:33:16.520 --> 0:33:20.400
<v Speaker 2>happen is they'd follow the drugs and find out who's

0:33:20.440 --> 0:33:23.680
<v Speaker 2>bringing it in. But you can't obviously let two hundred

0:33:23.680 --> 0:33:25.880
<v Speaker 2>and seventy kilos of real cocaine hit the streets, so

0:33:25.920 --> 0:33:29.080
<v Speaker 2>they replace it with a substitute, and then we do

0:33:29.120 --> 0:33:32.280
<v Speaker 2>our investigation and we follow the shipment to see where

0:33:32.280 --> 0:33:35.840
<v Speaker 2>it goes. So I live it through. They needed someone

0:33:36.320 --> 0:33:39.760
<v Speaker 2>to volunteer to sit at the bonding yard where they

0:33:39.800 --> 0:33:43.680
<v Speaker 2>hold the container off site from customs. In a bonding yard,

0:33:44.280 --> 0:33:47.520
<v Speaker 2>customs gear on it, a lock on it until it's

0:33:47.600 --> 0:33:50.320
<v Speaker 2>cleared and allowed to go over the person that's bringing in.

0:33:51.080 --> 0:33:54.400
<v Speaker 2>So I said, look, I'll volunteer. So I had to

0:33:54.400 --> 0:33:59.320
<v Speaker 2>go get myself a brand new fluo worker's shirt, mess

0:33:59.320 --> 0:34:00.880
<v Speaker 2>it up in the car to make it look like

0:34:00.920 --> 0:34:03.280
<v Speaker 2>I've been doing it for years. And I would sit

0:34:03.360 --> 0:34:09.240
<v Speaker 2>there in the coffee room of this bonding warehouse waiting

0:34:09.360 --> 0:34:14.160
<v Speaker 2>for some contact from the person bringing it in. And

0:34:14.400 --> 0:34:16.600
<v Speaker 2>I've been there for three days. I was board ships,

0:34:18.000 --> 0:34:19.400
<v Speaker 2>and then all of a sudden, I get my phone

0:34:19.440 --> 0:34:23.080
<v Speaker 2>call and it's the couples my boys sing, all the

0:34:23.160 --> 0:34:28.240
<v Speaker 2>guys ap currently coming in today and lunchtime in rolls

0:34:28.320 --> 0:34:33.040
<v Speaker 2>this this young kid who wants to check on his

0:34:33.600 --> 0:34:37.799
<v Speaker 2>shipping container that's arrived. So I go and deal with

0:34:37.880 --> 0:34:42.200
<v Speaker 2>him and saw a strike up a conversation again Nami

0:34:42.239 --> 0:34:44.040
<v Speaker 2>and said, look, I think it's going to be clear,

0:34:44.160 --> 0:34:46.239
<v Speaker 2>so you know when you need it delivered, to just

0:34:46.280 --> 0:34:48.920
<v Speaker 2>give us a call once it's clear, and I'll come

0:34:48.920 --> 0:34:51.920
<v Speaker 2>and bring it to you. And he said, you know

0:34:51.960 --> 0:34:54.160
<v Speaker 2>how to use a full clift and use a full

0:34:54.200 --> 0:34:58.439
<v Speaker 2>c lift, I'll call you'll call me. So a couple

0:34:58.480 --> 0:35:00.560
<v Speaker 2>of days later we arranged for it to be cleared

0:35:00.560 --> 0:35:03.880
<v Speaker 2>through customs, and he called. I got on the phone

0:35:03.880 --> 0:35:07.880
<v Speaker 2>and he said he wanted to delivered to a storage

0:35:07.880 --> 0:35:11.839
<v Speaker 2>facility PORTLM. So I said, yep, I'll bring a truck

0:35:11.880 --> 0:35:15.160
<v Speaker 2>and i'll bring it. I'll flad it. So we laded

0:35:15.239 --> 0:35:17.879
<v Speaker 2>the containers into a truck that I hired, and off

0:35:17.920 --> 0:35:20.480
<v Speaker 2>we went. I had these eight long I was a

0:35:20.480 --> 0:35:24.959
<v Speaker 2>two hundred and seventy one KO cocaine in it, doing

0:35:25.000 --> 0:35:28.160
<v Speaker 2>my first drug delivery. Funny thing is, and we had

0:35:28.280 --> 0:35:31.080
<v Speaker 2>checked about this previously. I was. I took a wrong

0:35:31.120 --> 0:35:33.640
<v Speaker 2>turn in this truck while I was heading to the

0:35:33.640 --> 0:35:37.360
<v Speaker 2>storage facility to see this kid, and I had to

0:35:37.360 --> 0:35:39.680
<v Speaker 2>do a U turn back around to come out go

0:35:39.840 --> 0:35:43.360
<v Speaker 2>the right way, and I backed into a powerpole and

0:35:43.400 --> 0:35:46.160
<v Speaker 2>there was this massive bang of just that, an accident

0:35:47.120 --> 0:35:48.719
<v Speaker 2>and a lot. I can't call the coppers because I'm

0:35:48.719 --> 0:35:51.480
<v Speaker 2>supposed to be delivering cocaine, so I had a quick check.

0:35:51.520 --> 0:35:53.360
<v Speaker 2>There was no damage. So I left the scene of

0:35:53.360 --> 0:35:59.479
<v Speaker 2>an accident, as all good drug deliveries do. Yeah yeah.

0:36:00.120 --> 0:36:02.520
<v Speaker 2>Only got to the delivery yard and he was there.

0:36:02.520 --> 0:36:05.279
<v Speaker 2>He was nervous as buggery, this kid, excepting his drug

0:36:05.320 --> 0:36:09.640
<v Speaker 2>delivery and nearly dropped one of the with the fort

0:36:09.960 --> 0:36:13.560
<v Speaker 2>nearly dropped one of the ride on malors and the

0:36:13.560 --> 0:36:17.319
<v Speaker 2>bottom of the shipping container crack AhR, shit, they're going

0:36:17.360 --> 0:36:19.759
<v Speaker 2>to see it. And his eyes just went, Oh my god,

0:36:20.000 --> 0:36:22.239
<v Speaker 2>my drug is going to fall out. It's all right.

0:36:23.040 --> 0:36:25.520
<v Speaker 2>I was all right, and I delivered it for him

0:36:24.760 --> 0:36:28.000
<v Speaker 2>and I thought, you know, in about six hours, this

0:36:28.120 --> 0:36:30.279
<v Speaker 2>kid's going to get locked up and he's probably going

0:36:30.280 --> 0:36:34.040
<v Speaker 2>to do you know, fifteen twenty years when drugs in

0:36:34.080 --> 0:36:39.720
<v Speaker 2>Australia and the little bugger gave me a tip fifty bucks. Well, behold,

0:36:39.960 --> 0:36:41.719
<v Speaker 2>you got to rest alone of that night after he

0:36:41.760 --> 0:36:43.920
<v Speaker 2>had cut it up and divided and he was delivering

0:36:43.960 --> 0:36:44.399
<v Speaker 2>it to his.

0:36:44.520 --> 0:36:48.520
<v Speaker 1>Heels again things like that. I'm hearing the story and

0:36:49.560 --> 0:36:52.839
<v Speaker 1>it's well say fun and they don't want people to

0:36:52.840 --> 0:36:55.840
<v Speaker 1>misinterpret it, but it is fun, isn't it. Being involved

0:36:55.880 --> 0:36:59.480
<v Speaker 1>in operation. The adrenaline's going, you know, the pressure's on.

0:36:59.600 --> 0:37:03.000
<v Speaker 1>You can't make a mistake. There's something something to be

0:37:03.040 --> 0:37:06.080
<v Speaker 1>said from that. You did a little bit, and I'm

0:37:06.080 --> 0:37:07.799
<v Speaker 1>not sure how much you can talk about it, but

0:37:08.160 --> 0:37:11.160
<v Speaker 1>human trafficking as well, like this is a crime that

0:37:11.200 --> 0:37:15.000
<v Speaker 1>we don't don't hear much about in Australia.

0:37:15.520 --> 0:37:18.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's a crime type that I never knew about.

0:37:19.040 --> 0:37:22.720
<v Speaker 2>And back then, you know, in two thousand and probably

0:37:22.719 --> 0:37:26.399
<v Speaker 2>would have been twelve and thirteen. Now there's a lot

0:37:26.440 --> 0:37:28.799
<v Speaker 2>of people have been smuggling in the country illegally by

0:37:28.840 --> 0:37:35.359
<v Speaker 2>boats into Christmas. I understand there are arrivals daily and

0:37:35.440 --> 0:37:38.600
<v Speaker 2>you know, public people smugglers were making an absolute killer

0:37:38.640 --> 0:37:41.759
<v Speaker 2>of a cash putting those people in. So I was

0:37:41.840 --> 0:37:45.799
<v Speaker 2>hunting on a strike team that tracked down people smugglers,

0:37:46.200 --> 0:37:49.040
<v Speaker 2>totally interested in crime type that I had no idea

0:37:49.280 --> 0:37:51.040
<v Speaker 2>of the process of people smuggling.

0:37:51.480 --> 0:37:56.160
<v Speaker 1>No, well, it's something that it seems archaic that it

0:37:56.160 --> 0:37:58.840
<v Speaker 1>wouldn't go on, you know, it seems like a crime,

0:37:58.840 --> 0:38:03.040
<v Speaker 1>but clear it does now when you're at Christmas Island.

0:38:03.239 --> 0:38:07.240
<v Speaker 1>That was where you started to see changes in yourself

0:38:08.239 --> 0:38:13.040
<v Speaker 1>at Christmas at Christmas Island a bit withdrawn or different things. Yeah.

0:38:13.239 --> 0:38:17.040
<v Speaker 2>Again, I didn't I didn't want to work. I didn't

0:38:17.040 --> 0:38:18.640
<v Speaker 2>actually want to get out of bed. It was quite

0:38:18.640 --> 0:38:20.440
<v Speaker 2>difficult to get out of a room and go to

0:38:20.440 --> 0:38:24.880
<v Speaker 2>work each day. I just totally lost motivation, almost identical

0:38:25.000 --> 0:38:29.359
<v Speaker 2>to ten years prior. In two thousand and five when

0:38:29.719 --> 0:38:31.799
<v Speaker 2>I finished at a helicopter job and I was not

0:38:31.960 --> 0:38:34.440
<v Speaker 2>motivated to come to work or fly at all. It

0:38:34.520 --> 0:38:37.480
<v Speaker 2>was exactly the same thing, but just later, you know,

0:38:37.520 --> 0:38:40.480
<v Speaker 2>and there was no specific reason in Christmas Island not

0:38:40.520 --> 0:38:43.160
<v Speaker 2>to go to work. It wasn't difficult work. We spent

0:38:43.280 --> 0:38:46.879
<v Speaker 2>most of our time interviewing illegal immigrants to find out

0:38:46.920 --> 0:38:50.680
<v Speaker 2>who the snuggler was. It wasn't difficult work. The conditions

0:38:50.719 --> 0:38:53.080
<v Speaker 2>were okay, the room's okay, the food was good.

0:38:53.760 --> 0:38:53.920
<v Speaker 1>You know.

0:38:54.080 --> 0:38:56.640
<v Speaker 2>We used to have a full drive and two around

0:38:56.640 --> 0:38:58.960
<v Speaker 2>the island around days off. But I was just not

0:38:59.080 --> 0:39:04.120
<v Speaker 2>motivated to any absolutely nothing. I think what didn't help

0:39:04.239 --> 0:39:07.600
<v Speaker 2>was the fly. I didn't It's terrible, yeah, really rough weather.

0:39:08.680 --> 0:39:10.480
<v Speaker 2>I remember it took us all day and we never

0:39:10.560 --> 0:39:14.879
<v Speaker 2>got in there, landing back at Perth eight hours later.

0:39:15.120 --> 0:39:17.280
<v Speaker 1>The flying is that triggering from your.

0:39:17.920 --> 0:39:20.560
<v Speaker 2>I suggest I suggest so, because so you know, I

0:39:20.560 --> 0:39:24.520
<v Speaker 2>remember landing going shit, this is not good. And that's

0:39:24.640 --> 0:39:26.480
<v Speaker 2>nowball to the point where I just didn't want to

0:39:26.480 --> 0:39:27.359
<v Speaker 2>do a Christmas all.

0:39:27.719 --> 0:39:31.239
<v Speaker 1>I know that it's hard for any any cop to

0:39:31.239 --> 0:39:33.279
<v Speaker 1>sort of put your hand up and say say you're

0:39:33.320 --> 0:39:36.680
<v Speaker 1>not not coping, But it came came to a head

0:39:36.719 --> 0:39:41.080
<v Speaker 1>for you after Christmas Island, the incident on the train.

0:39:41.280 --> 0:39:43.000
<v Speaker 1>Do you want to tell us that?

0:39:43.320 --> 0:39:45.440
<v Speaker 2>So it was just a normal shift. I remember I

0:39:45.520 --> 0:39:49.360
<v Speaker 2>had caught a couple of people have been sentenced that

0:39:49.440 --> 0:39:52.960
<v Speaker 2>I was the informant for a couple of drug importers.

0:39:53.719 --> 0:39:55.560
<v Speaker 2>Good thing is one got nine one years, one got

0:39:55.560 --> 0:39:57.239
<v Speaker 2>twenty one years. You know. I had a couple of

0:39:57.239 --> 0:40:01.000
<v Speaker 2>beers after work and then court train home and had

0:40:01.200 --> 0:40:04.320
<v Speaker 2>a massive just breakdown. I sort of blacked out for

0:40:04.360 --> 0:40:08.400
<v Speaker 2>a minute, and then I couldn't stop shaking. A respiratory

0:40:08.480 --> 0:40:11.560
<v Speaker 2>right went through the roof. I could film or pulse

0:40:11.600 --> 0:40:15.000
<v Speaker 2>some heart beating through my neck. I had no idea

0:40:15.040 --> 0:40:16.959
<v Speaker 2>where I was and freaked out. I had no idea

0:40:17.000 --> 0:40:20.880
<v Speaker 2>what was going on, absolutely none. And I remember the

0:40:21.000 --> 0:40:25.279
<v Speaker 2>kids and my wife were sitting outside the station waking

0:40:25.320 --> 0:40:27.520
<v Speaker 2>to pick me up, and I was just an absolute

0:40:27.600 --> 0:40:29.600
<v Speaker 2>blubbering mess. I don't know how to go off the train.

0:40:29.760 --> 0:40:33.200
<v Speaker 2>But usually the kids are sitting with the window open.

0:40:33.239 --> 0:40:35.640
<v Speaker 2>They're sitting on the seal and waving that dad coming down,

0:40:35.840 --> 0:40:37.520
<v Speaker 2>because it's a great thing to see the dad get

0:40:37.520 --> 0:40:40.480
<v Speaker 2>off the train. They're only six and eight, and the

0:40:40.520 --> 0:40:42.560
<v Speaker 2>look on their face when they saw me was just

0:40:42.680 --> 0:40:47.279
<v Speaker 2>pure beer. And I couldn't. I couldn't even manage to

0:40:47.280 --> 0:40:50.640
<v Speaker 2>open the door handle. And my wife had said, what's

0:40:50.680 --> 0:40:53.440
<v Speaker 2>going on? So I got no idea, absolutely no idea.

0:40:54.040 --> 0:40:57.000
<v Speaker 2>So managed to get me home, drop the kids off somewhere,

0:40:57.000 --> 0:40:59.960
<v Speaker 2>and I just sat in the bedroom. You know, my heart,

0:41:00.160 --> 0:41:05.920
<v Speaker 2>I was still through the river. And she called police welfare,

0:41:06.040 --> 0:41:09.640
<v Speaker 2>Victoria police welfare, but you know they couldn't touch me

0:41:09.640 --> 0:41:13.600
<v Speaker 2>at that time. It wasn't with Victoria Police. Unfortunately. When

0:41:13.640 --> 0:41:17.480
<v Speaker 2>she rang a p wed for welfare and Canberra was

0:41:17.520 --> 0:41:19.839
<v Speaker 2>in Melbourne, so I was lucky that my wife, you're

0:41:19.840 --> 0:41:22.560
<v Speaker 2>a psyched nurse and she just have lunch with her

0:41:22.560 --> 0:41:25.640
<v Speaker 2>that day. So they rang her and she come around

0:41:25.680 --> 0:41:29.080
<v Speaker 2>and she said, I actually said to this poor lady,

0:41:29.280 --> 0:41:32.640
<v Speaker 2>there's no one'tgoing to hospital, leaves the house. She says, okay,

0:41:32.640 --> 0:41:34.640
<v Speaker 2>I want to send your hospital if you can calm down.

0:41:34.800 --> 0:41:37.640
<v Speaker 2>So you managed to calm again. Nadia, her name is,

0:41:38.800 --> 0:41:41.480
<v Speaker 2>I can't forget her name, looked after me so well.

0:41:41.520 --> 0:41:44.640
<v Speaker 2>Since she managed to calm me down, I got to bed.

0:41:44.719 --> 0:41:47.120
<v Speaker 2>The next day, I managed to get him to see

0:41:47.160 --> 0:41:49.879
<v Speaker 2>my doctor and she took one look at me when

0:41:49.880 --> 0:41:51.839
<v Speaker 2>I walked in and said, I know exactly what's wrong.

0:41:52.200 --> 0:41:53.800
<v Speaker 2>That's it's the last day I ever worked.

0:41:54.320 --> 0:41:59.160
<v Speaker 1>I've heard other people tell similar stories. A place I'm

0:41:59.160 --> 0:42:03.040
<v Speaker 1>talking about where hits real sudden and it's almost like

0:42:03.200 --> 0:42:06.480
<v Speaker 1>as police or and I'm not sure whether it's a

0:42:06.560 --> 0:42:09.160
<v Speaker 1>career that happens or the type of person you become

0:42:09.200 --> 0:42:12.320
<v Speaker 1>working in the police. So many people choose to ignore

0:42:12.320 --> 0:42:14.319
<v Speaker 1>it until it gets to that point where you just

0:42:14.360 --> 0:42:17.000
<v Speaker 1>can't ignore it. You're just not functioning, so you can't

0:42:17.080 --> 0:42:20.680
<v Speaker 1>hide it anymore. What was going through your mind was

0:42:21.120 --> 0:42:23.759
<v Speaker 1>hard for you to come to terms with, Like you're

0:42:23.760 --> 0:42:27.120
<v Speaker 1>a block that's done all these things and never taken

0:42:27.160 --> 0:42:29.560
<v Speaker 1>a backward step, never put your hand up for help.

0:42:29.600 --> 0:42:31.879
<v Speaker 1>You're helping other people, and all of a sudden you're

0:42:31.880 --> 0:42:34.359
<v Speaker 1>going to go, hey, I can't go. How was it

0:42:34.400 --> 0:42:35.120
<v Speaker 1>personally for you?

0:42:35.560 --> 0:42:37.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you hit then ail on the head. I mean,

0:42:37.120 --> 0:42:40.600
<v Speaker 2>your self worth takes a massive dive. No, you have

0:42:40.680 --> 0:42:43.160
<v Speaker 2>this really great career, You've done some exciting stuff, just

0:42:43.160 --> 0:42:46.120
<v Speaker 2>like you said, and you think you're ten for tall bulletproof.

0:42:46.600 --> 0:42:48.200
<v Speaker 2>I think you're made for the job. You do it

0:42:48.239 --> 0:42:50.520
<v Speaker 2>really well. And then all of a sudden something happens

0:42:50.560 --> 0:42:53.520
<v Speaker 2>to you that they call a mental health issue that

0:42:53.680 --> 0:42:56.480
<v Speaker 2>ends your police career. So suddenly you think, well, maybe

0:42:56.480 --> 0:42:58.719
<v Speaker 2>I wasn't as good as I thought, Maybe I wasn't

0:42:58.719 --> 0:43:00.920
<v Speaker 2>as strong as what I thought. You should never done

0:43:00.920 --> 0:43:02.920
<v Speaker 2>that job in the first place, so your self worth

0:43:02.960 --> 0:43:05.640
<v Speaker 2>takes a massive beating. I think it's one of the

0:43:05.680 --> 0:43:10.759
<v Speaker 2>symptoms of PTSD that is incredibly dangerous but underrated. You know,

0:43:10.880 --> 0:43:13.920
<v Speaker 2>a lot of bad shit happens because of your self worth. Problems,

0:43:14.320 --> 0:43:18.520
<v Speaker 2>re licenships, alcohol, drugs, suicide, depression, all can come from

0:43:18.560 --> 0:43:22.000
<v Speaker 2>self worth and there's nothing worse. And yeah, it's very

0:43:22.040 --> 0:43:25.759
<v Speaker 2>difficult when you've got self low self worth to get

0:43:25.800 --> 0:43:30.560
<v Speaker 2>over yourself requires a totally different mind change, and not

0:43:30.719 --> 0:43:32.080
<v Speaker 2>everyone can do it by themself.

0:43:32.280 --> 0:43:35.440
<v Speaker 1>I reference in part one we're talking about. You know,

0:43:35.719 --> 0:43:37.560
<v Speaker 1>in policing, you're meant to be able to do this,

0:43:37.719 --> 0:43:39.279
<v Speaker 1>you're meant to be able to do that, and you're

0:43:39.320 --> 0:43:43.320
<v Speaker 1>weak if you can't. That's it's a culture that plays

0:43:43.360 --> 0:43:46.280
<v Speaker 1>in part and I don't think it's just the organization's fault.

0:43:46.320 --> 0:43:48.279
<v Speaker 1>I think it's a type of people that sign up

0:43:48.280 --> 0:43:52.600
<v Speaker 1>for policing generally, what they're driven by someone like you

0:43:52.680 --> 0:43:56.040
<v Speaker 1>that have done so many things and it catches you.

0:43:56.400 --> 0:43:59.200
<v Speaker 1>I've had someone else on the podcast, a good cop,

0:43:59.200 --> 0:44:01.000
<v Speaker 1>a hard cop that was really at the front to

0:44:01.120 --> 0:44:05.640
<v Speaker 1>front end of everything. It hit him that quickly when

0:44:05.680 --> 0:44:08.279
<v Speaker 1>he got got help and it had to put his

0:44:08.360 --> 0:44:10.040
<v Speaker 1>hand up, and he felt like he was letting down

0:44:10.080 --> 0:44:12.160
<v Speaker 1>his mates. He felt like he was an embarrassment to

0:44:12.200 --> 0:44:15.279
<v Speaker 1>his family and his kids and all that shit. And

0:44:16.040 --> 0:44:19.800
<v Speaker 1>he's come back now. And basically the lesson he learned

0:44:19.800 --> 0:44:22.959
<v Speaker 1>that if he addressed it earlier, perhaps he still could

0:44:22.960 --> 0:44:26.439
<v Speaker 1>have been in the cops. What's your what's your take

0:44:26.480 --> 0:44:27.640
<v Speaker 1>on your journey?

0:44:28.080 --> 0:44:32.400
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, exactly. I mean, one, you need to address

0:44:32.440 --> 0:44:34.120
<v Speaker 2>it earlier. But if you're not aware of what the

0:44:34.160 --> 0:44:36.759
<v Speaker 2>symptoms are, and like I said, I thought insomnia was

0:44:36.880 --> 0:44:40.279
<v Speaker 2>just for night night shift. Lack of inulance is just

0:44:40.800 --> 0:44:43.920
<v Speaker 2>pile of the parcel of doing something too. I suppose

0:44:43.920 --> 0:44:46.279
<v Speaker 2>if I had to name what the symptoms are PTS Two,

0:44:47.040 --> 0:44:49.440
<v Speaker 2>I would have noticed that I probably started suffering those

0:44:49.480 --> 0:44:52.759
<v Speaker 2>symptoms back in the mid nineties and may have avoided

0:44:53.200 --> 0:44:55.920
<v Speaker 2>the end of the police Carrier of twenty twenty.

0:44:55.960 --> 0:44:59.160
<v Speaker 1>When I finally, what are the symptoms? You look at

0:44:59.200 --> 0:45:01.960
<v Speaker 1>that you've said in some there what the other things is.

0:45:02.760 --> 0:45:05.280
<v Speaker 2>The other way is there was a bit of biness, drinking,

0:45:05.760 --> 0:45:10.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, there was memory loss, depression. There's about I

0:45:10.920 --> 0:45:14.279
<v Speaker 2>think there's about twenty odd symptoms. But to be diagnosed

0:45:14.320 --> 0:45:17.120
<v Speaker 2>with PTSD you have to have a certain number of them.

0:45:17.440 --> 0:45:20.439
<v Speaker 2>A lot of people don't know. To have PTSD, full

0:45:20.480 --> 0:45:24.279
<v Speaker 2>blown PTSD, you have to have depression or anxiety. It's

0:45:24.360 --> 0:45:27.279
<v Speaker 2>part of the diagnosis. And I didn't know that either.

0:45:27.520 --> 0:45:29.600
<v Speaker 2>I didn't even know what the signs were. Depression just

0:45:29.600 --> 0:45:31.759
<v Speaker 2>sometimes I thought it was too lazy to get out

0:45:31.800 --> 0:45:35.040
<v Speaker 2>of bed, and just having a bad day. Socially, withdrawn

0:45:35.840 --> 0:45:38.239
<v Speaker 2>is another big one. You start withdrawing from your friends.

0:45:38.280 --> 0:45:40.239
<v Speaker 2>You don't want to go out anymore. You are to

0:45:40.239 --> 0:45:42.880
<v Speaker 2>be seen in public, you don't want to associate with

0:45:43.000 --> 0:45:45.920
<v Speaker 2>more than one person at a time. I had a

0:45:45.920 --> 0:45:49.280
<v Speaker 2>lot of hyper vigilance issues. As I was a cafe,

0:45:49.560 --> 0:45:52.200
<v Speaker 2>someone dropped the spoon, I'd hit the roof because your

0:45:52.200 --> 0:45:54.160
<v Speaker 2>brain doesn't pick up. But that's not a threat that

0:45:54.239 --> 0:45:57.360
<v Speaker 2>thinks everything's a threat. It's hyper vigilance when you're waiting

0:45:57.400 --> 0:45:59.839
<v Speaker 2>for something to happen. I had a lot of that

0:46:00.040 --> 0:46:02.480
<v Speaker 2>towards the end. And again, if I hadn't known that

0:46:02.480 --> 0:46:05.759
<v Speaker 2>that was part of PTUs too, then you know, I

0:46:05.800 --> 0:46:08.520
<v Speaker 2>would have sought help. Hopefully, I think I would have

0:46:08.520 --> 0:46:11.240
<v Speaker 2>been smart enough to seek help. A lot of people

0:46:11.320 --> 0:46:13.479
<v Speaker 2>just ignore it or just ride off as something else,

0:46:14.440 --> 0:46:18.200
<v Speaker 2>and no one's immune to it. I don't think. You know,

0:46:18.320 --> 0:46:22.440
<v Speaker 2>they can recruit people that are into it. They recruit

0:46:22.480 --> 0:46:24.520
<v Speaker 2>people that want to get out there and do this job.

0:46:24.560 --> 0:46:28.759
<v Speaker 2>That's why they're toppers. Some people will make good coppers. Unfortunately,

0:46:28.800 --> 0:46:30.880
<v Speaker 2>it's a byproduct. I don't know what they're going to

0:46:30.920 --> 0:46:34.960
<v Speaker 2>do about it, apart from changing coppers about the symptoms

0:46:35.680 --> 0:46:38.280
<v Speaker 2>and what they are and how to recognize it, manage

0:46:38.800 --> 0:46:40.040
<v Speaker 2>counseling and stuff like that.

0:46:42.520 --> 0:46:45.399
<v Speaker 1>Your journey, how have you many to navigate your way

0:46:45.400 --> 0:46:48.960
<v Speaker 1>through from that low point to where you are now?

0:46:49.040 --> 0:46:50.799
<v Speaker 1>Has it been a tough journey? Yeah?

0:46:50.840 --> 0:46:54.440
<v Speaker 2>It has. I mean, you know, we've got to you've

0:46:54.480 --> 0:46:57.799
<v Speaker 2>got to go through the workhover process and the tom

0:46:57.880 --> 0:47:01.520
<v Speaker 2>care process, and that's never a good one. And I

0:47:01.600 --> 0:47:05.120
<v Speaker 2>went through that process, which is yeah, it just makes

0:47:05.440 --> 0:47:10.120
<v Speaker 2>recovery so much worse. I had to prove to the

0:47:10.160 --> 0:47:13.960
<v Speaker 2>insurance company that it was police work that caused my PTSD,

0:47:14.520 --> 0:47:17.280
<v Speaker 2>even though I'd only ever had two jobs in my life,

0:47:17.440 --> 0:47:20.360
<v Speaker 2>both of the policing, and that took about three years.

0:47:20.360 --> 0:47:24.960
<v Speaker 2>So you know, eventually they'll bring in the reverse onus,

0:47:24.960 --> 0:47:26.359
<v Speaker 2>and I think they need to do that as soon

0:47:26.400 --> 0:47:30.319
<v Speaker 2>as possible. I think in Canada nowadays, and I think

0:47:30.360 --> 0:47:33.200
<v Speaker 2>in Queensland. I'm not one under posential that if you

0:47:33.320 --> 0:47:37.200
<v Speaker 2>die police officer emergency services and you're diagnosed with PTSD,

0:47:37.600 --> 0:47:41.200
<v Speaker 2>that's automatically attributed to work, and the insurance company have

0:47:41.280 --> 0:47:41.760
<v Speaker 2>to prove.

0:47:41.600 --> 0:47:45.600
<v Speaker 1>That it isn't right, so the owners goes back on them. Yeah.

0:47:45.800 --> 0:47:48.359
<v Speaker 2>The other side is the police forces are way better

0:47:48.400 --> 0:47:53.799
<v Speaker 2>at recognizing it and they're boosting numbers for psychologists and

0:47:53.880 --> 0:47:57.640
<v Speaker 2>all say mandatory debrief. I mean my whole police career,

0:47:57.920 --> 0:47:59.760
<v Speaker 2>I never had a critical incident debrief.

0:48:00.080 --> 0:48:02.759
<v Speaker 1>Well, we're becoming more aware of it.

0:48:02.800 --> 0:48:05.960
<v Speaker 2>I think nowadays to you that they don't expect the

0:48:06.000 --> 0:48:09.680
<v Speaker 2>average cop and to do a lifetime service. When you

0:48:09.719 --> 0:48:11.880
<v Speaker 2>and I joined, it was a career and they expected

0:48:11.920 --> 0:48:13.919
<v Speaker 2>it to retire at sixty five. Yeah.

0:48:14.040 --> 0:48:16.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, they virtually mapped it out for you, didn't they.

0:48:16.680 --> 0:48:19.240
<v Speaker 2>Now I think if they get five to ten years

0:48:19.280 --> 0:48:21.440
<v Speaker 2>service out of police officers. They are happy.

0:48:21.800 --> 0:48:25.279
<v Speaker 1>Well, and both you and I know. The trouble is

0:48:25.320 --> 0:48:27.839
<v Speaker 1>if you only get that much, you're only coming into

0:48:28.200 --> 0:48:31.239
<v Speaker 1>hitting your straps after about ten years with the experience

0:48:31.280 --> 0:48:36.160
<v Speaker 1>and the ability to manage it. But I'm sad and

0:48:36.640 --> 0:48:39.600
<v Speaker 1>the fact that it's so hard to attract police across

0:48:39.640 --> 0:48:44.640
<v Speaker 1>the country and everyone's under resourced in policing. And I

0:48:44.680 --> 0:48:48.480
<v Speaker 1>think it is a great job. Yeah, you pay a

0:48:48.520 --> 0:48:50.520
<v Speaker 1>price to a degree and the things that you see.

0:48:50.560 --> 0:48:53.680
<v Speaker 1>But for a young blake like yourself that joined the

0:48:53.680 --> 0:48:56.160
<v Speaker 1>cops wasn't concentrating when he was meant to be studying

0:48:56.200 --> 0:48:59.799
<v Speaker 1>at school and trying to look for a life, how

0:48:59.840 --> 0:49:01.160
<v Speaker 1>do you look back at your career?

0:49:01.560 --> 0:49:04.920
<v Speaker 2>Well, great memories now, I mean I had, you know,

0:49:06.520 --> 0:49:09.520
<v Speaker 2>second thoughts early on when i'd finished work because of

0:49:09.520 --> 0:49:13.399
<v Speaker 2>the BTSD. As coppers, like you said before, we never

0:49:13.480 --> 0:49:16.040
<v Speaker 2>go to jobs where people are happy and safe. They're

0:49:16.080 --> 0:49:19.799
<v Speaker 2>always really shit, you know. When what we do is

0:49:19.960 --> 0:49:22.520
<v Speaker 2>as coppers, we focus on the bad stuff because that's

0:49:22.560 --> 0:49:24.040
<v Speaker 2>what we talk about when we have a ber. We

0:49:24.080 --> 0:49:26.640
<v Speaker 2>talk about the bad ship and the bad stories. And

0:49:26.719 --> 0:49:29.760
<v Speaker 2>I think when your career ends, it's a bit bitter,

0:49:30.760 --> 0:49:32.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, you start to concentrate on how much you

0:49:33.000 --> 0:49:35.120
<v Speaker 2>hated your bosses and how much we paying the us well,

0:49:35.320 --> 0:49:37.719
<v Speaker 2>and they're really bad jobs that you went to, and

0:49:37.719 --> 0:49:41.200
<v Speaker 2>that sort of defines your whole career. But I think

0:49:41.239 --> 0:49:43.520
<v Speaker 2>what we need to do is concentrate about the people

0:49:43.560 --> 0:49:46.120
<v Speaker 2>that we actually helped, and there's many of them, and

0:49:46.200 --> 0:49:49.439
<v Speaker 2>you would know yourself to concentrate on the really shit

0:49:49.600 --> 0:49:54.400
<v Speaker 2>murders and the bad homicide scenes, nearly concentrate is the

0:49:54.440 --> 0:49:58.360
<v Speaker 2>fact that throughout your career there's far more people that

0:49:58.400 --> 0:50:01.640
<v Speaker 2>you helped and better life because of your input. We

0:50:01.719 --> 0:50:02.600
<v Speaker 2>tend to forget.

0:50:02.320 --> 0:50:06.600
<v Speaker 1>About that one. You've got Bravery awards, and I know

0:50:06.719 --> 0:50:10.200
<v Speaker 1>that even came as for the bats strait and other things.

0:50:10.760 --> 0:50:13.799
<v Speaker 1>I know that even came back to cause conflict in

0:50:13.840 --> 0:50:17.600
<v Speaker 1>your in your mind that yeah, I don't deserve that.

0:50:17.680 --> 0:50:19.640
<v Speaker 1>I was just doing my job type thing. There was

0:50:19.680 --> 0:50:23.320
<v Speaker 1>nothing brave about what I was doing. But I think

0:50:23.480 --> 0:50:26.200
<v Speaker 1>if we take on your advice, you know, look at

0:50:26.200 --> 0:50:29.319
<v Speaker 1>the people you help, Like, I don't know, if I

0:50:29.360 --> 0:50:32.359
<v Speaker 1>was drowning in the water and you turned up, you'd

0:50:32.360 --> 0:50:35.640
<v Speaker 1>be my favorite person in the world for the rest

0:50:35.680 --> 0:50:39.080
<v Speaker 1>of my life. And the people in the accidents that

0:50:39.200 --> 0:50:42.040
<v Speaker 1>you've helped. So I hope you can hang on to that.

0:50:42.600 --> 0:50:44.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I do now, but at the time, you know,

0:50:44.920 --> 0:50:47.680
<v Speaker 2>you don't, don't think about that and the fun times

0:50:47.719 --> 0:50:50.680
<v Speaker 2>you had. I mean, I still say policing is the

0:50:50.680 --> 0:50:52.800
<v Speaker 2>best job you can have with your pants one.

0:50:53.160 --> 0:50:55.439
<v Speaker 1>Well, that's right, what are you what are you doing

0:50:55.480 --> 0:50:56.200
<v Speaker 1>with yourself now?

0:50:57.120 --> 0:50:59.920
<v Speaker 2>I've got a teenage son to look after and a

0:51:00.040 --> 0:51:01.360
<v Speaker 2>teenage daughter to get the school.

0:51:01.640 --> 0:51:03.080
<v Speaker 1>That's a full time job in itself.

0:51:03.120 --> 0:51:04.880
<v Speaker 2>You want to come at a full time job and

0:51:04.920 --> 0:51:06.959
<v Speaker 2>when they're not there, I gather it like a local

0:51:07.040 --> 0:51:11.600
<v Speaker 2>cafe and have a coffee and I'm amazed at how

0:51:11.680 --> 0:51:12.400
<v Speaker 2>quick the days go.

0:51:13.120 --> 0:51:16.480
<v Speaker 1>Your book, I've had had a read of it, as

0:51:16.600 --> 0:51:19.600
<v Speaker 1>I've said, read it cover to cover, and I think

0:51:19.600 --> 0:51:21.239
<v Speaker 1>it was a great book and it really gave me

0:51:21.320 --> 0:51:23.320
<v Speaker 1>an insight into the things that you do as a

0:51:23.360 --> 0:51:25.920
<v Speaker 1>police and it's not sort of I don't think people

0:51:26.040 --> 0:51:29.200
<v Speaker 1>realize the type of trauma that police see in their career,

0:51:29.600 --> 0:51:33.239
<v Speaker 1>in most police officers' career, and it's quite confronting when

0:51:33.280 --> 0:51:35.560
<v Speaker 1>you put it put it down in writing. Did that

0:51:35.680 --> 0:51:37.480
<v Speaker 1>help you in any way writing the book?

0:51:38.120 --> 0:51:40.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it definitely did. I mean It took me three

0:51:40.320 --> 0:51:42.160
<v Speaker 2>years to write it, so it was a long process.

0:51:42.239 --> 0:51:44.200
<v Speaker 1>Were you doing that on the manual typewriter? No?

0:51:44.560 --> 0:51:49.600
<v Speaker 2>I had a computer, all right, I bought You know,

0:51:49.880 --> 0:51:54.440
<v Speaker 2>it was a long process. For the most part therapeutic,

0:51:55.200 --> 0:51:58.080
<v Speaker 2>but you know, there are times where you start going

0:51:58.120 --> 0:52:01.120
<v Speaker 2>down a rabbit hole and start I open up a

0:52:01.160 --> 0:52:03.520
<v Speaker 2>can of worms that probably should have been left closed.

0:52:04.200 --> 0:52:06.160
<v Speaker 2>So you're going to go down that path of writing

0:52:06.239 --> 0:52:08.560
<v Speaker 2>about trauma and your experience, you know, to be prepared

0:52:08.600 --> 0:52:11.799
<v Speaker 2>for that. I thought of wasn't but sort of accepted it,

0:52:12.239 --> 0:52:15.360
<v Speaker 2>and then of course it's good for your family. I

0:52:15.480 --> 0:52:18.759
<v Speaker 2>realized towards the end of the process that this might

0:52:18.840 --> 0:52:21.680
<v Speaker 2>be the only way that my kids are going to

0:52:21.680 --> 0:52:24.640
<v Speaker 2>find out exactly what happened to dad and why it's

0:52:24.680 --> 0:52:28.080
<v Speaker 2>such a grumpy prick and didn't want to go out

0:52:28.320 --> 0:52:32.000
<v Speaker 2>with the family or didn't want to go to these functions.

0:52:32.280 --> 0:52:34.400
<v Speaker 2>But it's got a reason why. I understand it. My

0:52:34.520 --> 0:52:37.080
<v Speaker 2>kids do understand it. My son's read the book, he

0:52:37.239 --> 0:52:38.399
<v Speaker 2>gets it well.

0:52:38.680 --> 0:52:41.600
<v Speaker 1>It does help because quite often they have no idea

0:52:41.920 --> 0:52:46.000
<v Speaker 1>what you're going through and they probably look at you differently. Well,

0:52:46.440 --> 0:52:48.720
<v Speaker 1>we'll wrap it up here. I just want to say

0:52:49.360 --> 0:52:52.480
<v Speaker 1>thanks for coming on the podcast and thanks for the

0:52:52.480 --> 0:52:55.400
<v Speaker 1>service that you've done. And I don't think you should

0:52:55.400 --> 0:52:59.560
<v Speaker 1>ever underestimate. Yeah, we see these blokes. I've never actually

0:52:59.560 --> 0:53:01.880
<v Speaker 1>thought about, who is that person being dangled from the

0:53:01.880 --> 0:53:05.600
<v Speaker 1>helicopter that we watch on the nightly news, rescuing people

0:53:06.000 --> 0:53:08.040
<v Speaker 1>and the other stuff that you've done in policing. Says

0:53:08.080 --> 0:53:10.359
<v Speaker 1>you'd walk away, walk away very proud.

0:53:11.120 --> 0:53:12.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and look I do. And then at the end

0:53:12.840 --> 0:53:14.640
<v Speaker 2>of the day, if I had my time over again,

0:53:15.160 --> 0:53:18.719
<v Speaker 2>I'll do it exactly the same way. Cheers, Thank you,