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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life the average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my chat with Cameron Hardiman.

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Speaker 1: In part one, we spoke about Cameron's early career in policing. Now,

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Speaker 1: in part two, Cameron tells us about the high risk

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Speaker 1: helicopter rescue in bass Strait that made him realize couldn't

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Speaker 1: keep rolling the dice. Cameron then joined the AFP, which

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Speaker 1: took him to the Solomon Islands on a peacekeeping operation

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Speaker 1: and a humanitarian operation in christ Church after the devastating earthquakes.

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Speaker 1: He also investigated international drug dealers and human trafficking. Cameron's

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Speaker 1: job finally caught up with him. He was diagnosed with PTSD.

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Speaker 1: This ended his career in the police. I've enjoyed this

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Speaker 1: talk with Cameron and his reflection on bravery and resilience.

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Speaker 1: Cameron Hardiman, welcome back to part two If I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 1: Well one that operation that I want to talk about,

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Speaker 1: and I'll let you tell the story because it's fascinating

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Speaker 1: the whole scenario of what took place. But that was

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Speaker 1: the rescue you did in bass Strait. Can you tell

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Speaker 1: us about tell us about that because that particular rescue

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Speaker 1: has played a big part in your life. It had

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Speaker 1: a bigger impact on you than you probably thought that would. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it was fairly intense what happened. So I suppose

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Speaker 1: best way let you just tell the story. What it

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Speaker 1: was about that day.

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Speaker 2: I was rousted on the police helicop, you know. So

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Speaker 2: I walked into work and looked at the roster and

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Speaker 2: said that I'm on the police helicop. I've got my

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Speaker 2: gear ready as usual. But it was one of those

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Speaker 2: days when you drive to work and you think, boy,

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Speaker 2: that this weather is terrible, and I remember seeing his

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Speaker 2: dark cloud on their eyes, and you know they had

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Speaker 2: on the news that there was a storm out straight

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Speaker 2: The Spirit of Tasmania. The big news story to that

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Speaker 2: morning was the Spirit of Tasmania. It started across straight

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Speaker 2: and the waves so big a start of the first

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Speaker 2: portholes smashed portholes on upper decks and move furniture, and

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Speaker 2: people were vomiting and had to turn back. And I thought, well,

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Speaker 2: that's somewhere I'd rather stay away from as I'm driving

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Speaker 2: to work. But obviously it didn't happen that way, and

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Speaker 2: we started the morning. The first job of the morning

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Speaker 2: was someone that had seen or believe they saw someone

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Speaker 2: fall off the bridge at a swollen creek out of

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Speaker 2: the West and suburbs because there was floods everywhere. So

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Speaker 2: someone had seen this driven past seating someone standing on

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Speaker 2: the side of this bridge looking at the swollen ribbon

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Speaker 2: underneath them of the creek, and when they looked back,

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Speaker 2: the person was in there, so they assumed they either

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Speaker 2: fell or jumped. So we got called down to there,

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Speaker 2: and usually when you're looking for someone like that, we

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Speaker 2: flew down to about three hundred feet and we started

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Speaker 2: tracking up and down the river looking all the flood waters.

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Speaker 2: I had the back door slid open and the harness one.

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Speaker 2: I was sitting on the ledge looking out, and we

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Speaker 2: couldn't find it. Usually we could if someone had fallen

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Speaker 2: over you, that'd either report back that they'd found them,

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Speaker 2: or someone will be recorded missing. And there was none

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Speaker 2: of that. And we expected that if we're going to

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Speaker 2: find this person, they're going to be flooded face down

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Speaker 2: and stuck them into eddy or against grass, up against

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Speaker 2: the tree. But we never feund anyone. And as we

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Speaker 2: were doing that, a call came in through the office

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Speaker 2: to say that there was a guy in a yacht

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Speaker 2: in the middle of us Straight that got hit by

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Speaker 2: the storm, was being bashed around. He had no mast

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Speaker 2: and the water place were asking if we can go

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Speaker 2: and winch him off his boat. And I remember looking

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Speaker 2: out to the south of Bass Straight and that massive

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Speaker 2: gray cloud was still there. And I had effectively volunteered

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Speaker 2: to be the winch crewman that day. All the down

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Speaker 2: the wire man it was. It was too late to

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Speaker 2: get out of it then, so we headed back to

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Speaker 2: s and And Airport to refuel on there EGS helicopter come

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Speaker 2: out and continue to search for the person. And we

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Speaker 2: got ready and we got the position. We got out

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Speaker 2: of our maps and saw that it was about sixty

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Speaker 2: five miles off the coast of Sail, which is where

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Speaker 2: the rough blass and the pilot who worked out he

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Speaker 2: had enough fuel to fill up the tanks and enough

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Speaker 2: fuel to get there, get us ten minutes over the

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Speaker 2: top of the yacht to winch him off, and then

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Speaker 2: enough fuel to get back to the nearest airport, which

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Speaker 2: was a bat out thirty minute flight back. So we thought, well,

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Speaker 2: let's go and do it. And I remember we got

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Speaker 2: we're heading there, and I was getting what was called

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Speaker 2: a survival suit on, so because it was cold winter

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Speaker 2: and wet and straight on. Instead of using a normal

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Speaker 2: wet so he used to what was called survival suit.

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Speaker 2: So I got stuck out in the water. I've got

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Speaker 2: about six hours rather than one hour before we get hold.

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Speaker 2: I remember it. Get stuck at these hills. We had

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Speaker 2: to sort of sneak around the cloud low level to

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Speaker 2: get out there. You know, it took a fair while

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Speaker 2: to get sixty five miles out the closest thing on

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Speaker 2: there was no land visible from there, I could see

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Speaker 2: a major oil rig on the horizon just as we

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Speaker 2: sort of hit the ocean and wandered away that the

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Speaker 2: search and rescue people in Canberra sent down a fixed

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Speaker 2: wing aircraft. They sent one from a rabit And airport

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Speaker 2: to sit over the top of us just to maintain

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Speaker 2: communications with US and aviation traffic radio to say that yep,

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Speaker 2: we're still there and still operating and all right. So

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Speaker 2: it was like a bit of top cover for us.

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Speaker 2: So we finally got in the area, so we knew

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Speaker 2: we had enough fuel for ten minutes to find him

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Speaker 2: and get him off the yacht, and enough you're to

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Speaker 2: get back to them. There is fire only dipper. The

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Speaker 2: water police that wanted this this sailor to scuttle his

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Speaker 2: yacht before he got win stopped. So they wanted him

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Speaker 2: to pull what's called seacock founs, the big bowers in

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Speaker 2: the back. Once you paull them, it starts flooding in

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Speaker 2: the Boatle sent within about ten to fifteen minutes. And

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Speaker 2: the reason they wanted him to do that is that

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Speaker 2: they didn't want an unman yacht floating around in shipping channels.

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Speaker 2: So they get people that if you winch him off

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Speaker 2: the yacht.

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Speaker 1: You've got to scuttle it, right, Okay, didn't realize that.

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Speaker 2: Unless it's knowing, but they don't leave it. There's enough

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Speaker 2: crap out there floating in the ocean damaging boats without

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Speaker 2: having extra yachts floating around with no one in them,

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Speaker 2: especially by straight major shipping channel. So we had to

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Speaker 2: ask our water police to contact him on his radio

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Speaker 2: and say the second because we only had ten minutes.

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Speaker 2: We said the second we get overhead. We need him

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Speaker 2: as soon as he sees the helicopter to pull those

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Speaker 2: valves and get up to the deck because we've only

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Speaker 2: got a few seconds to get him off the off.

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Speaker 1: So when you're talking that the fuel is that that tight?

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Speaker 1: When you're talking the time time restraints there, you haven't

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Speaker 1: got time to muck around. You're basically going to be

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Speaker 1: running on fumes by the time you get back.

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Speaker 2: Helicopters don't have endless fuel ballot, but bladders, and the

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Speaker 2: more fuel you put on, the more weight you have.

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Speaker 2: So therefore, the less you can carry, the less you

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Speaker 2: can fly. Okay, Now, if you fill the helicopter, our

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Speaker 2: helicopter up with the two tanks and what we call nine.

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Speaker 2: At the boot tank, you've probably got about two hours endurance.

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Speaker 2: But if you start adding equipment and then three people,

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Speaker 2: you've got to reduce fuel. So now we've got say

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Speaker 2: we've got our full tanks, we've got to make the

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Speaker 2: pile's going to make sure that he's got enough fuel

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Speaker 2: to get there. He puts an extra person, so extra

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Speaker 2: hundred kilos on board, So therefore he's going to make

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Speaker 2: sure that fuel Bunce is right. He's got enough to

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Speaker 2: get back. Now. Unfortunately, you hear this all the time,

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Speaker 2: the rescues that they were low on fuel. Well, that's

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Speaker 2: always the case. You leave with a certain a man

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Speaker 2: of fuel and the second you get off the ground

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Speaker 2: you start running out. So there is a time when

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Speaker 2: you have to head back. The further year go. The

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Speaker 2: less time you got on task lot stupid diving the

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Speaker 2: dpe go, the less time you could stay there. Now,

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Speaker 2: we believe that that message was passed on that he

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Speaker 2: was going to scuddle the ship, the boat and then

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Speaker 2: make his.

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Speaker 1: Way to the deck the moment he saw you, the moment.

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Speaker 2: He saw us, yea. And it took us a while

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Speaker 2: to find him because you can imagine that there's five

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Speaker 2: to seven meter waves and seas and bass strikes like

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Speaker 2: a washing machine. It's quite shallow, so you get waves

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Speaker 2: and a swell out there a small part of bats

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Speaker 2: straights like this, they start to bend out of a

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Speaker 2: white cap. So we're in the right spot. We just

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Speaker 2: couldn't just couldn't see it because the white caps everywhere,

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Speaker 2: and the pilot we were almost thinking we're going to

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Speaker 2: have to refuel, go back, refuel, come back and have

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Speaker 2: another crack. And the pilot spotted it. And the reason

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Speaker 2: was so hard is because he was the same size

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Speaker 2: with his white caps. He's in a white yacht and

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Speaker 2: he's been rolled over, so he just looked like another

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Speaker 2: white cap. So the pilot had said that he's ready

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Speaker 2: to winch. He was in a harbor, and I jumped

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Speaker 2: in the back, hooked onto the wire. The winch operator

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Speaker 2: put me out the door. I remember first opening that

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Speaker 2: door and there was this war and you get this

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Speaker 2: a lot of wind gusts because of the downdraft of

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Speaker 2: the helicopter and the engines making noise. But on top

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Speaker 2: of that there was this war from waves and wind

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Speaker 2: as well, and I remember thinking, I'm going to have

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Speaker 2: to think about getting a transfer out of there, because

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Speaker 2: I don't think you'll be doing this one again. I

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Speaker 2: remember yelling because you can't talk. I remember yelling over

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Speaker 2: the noise to the wind operator saying, you know, do

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Speaker 2: your best to put me on the deck. He can't

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Speaker 2: get me on the deck, stick me in the water

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Speaker 2: and I'll drag him in and lo and behold. I

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Speaker 2: cannot believe the wind shopper Brennan. I don't know how

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Speaker 2: he did it because the bag. You got to remember

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Speaker 2: the helicopters sitting there at harbor. He's verbally guiding the

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Speaker 2: pilot and around while he's controlling my height, and the

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Speaker 2: boat is just getting thrown around. And he manages to

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Speaker 2: land me on the deck of the yacht right where

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Speaker 2: the cabin entry to the cabin is, with half a

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Speaker 2: meter of the guy standing there. And I thought, I

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Speaker 2: cannot believe he's done this. I thought I'm cashing in

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Speaker 2: on there. So I went to stick the strop over

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Speaker 2: his head and then under his arms, and I was

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Speaker 2: going to give the crom a wind job, rode a

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Speaker 2: thumb saying get me out of here. I reckon. I

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Speaker 2: could have spent about three seconds on that yacht, and

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Speaker 2: I get him off, but he just looked at me.

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Speaker 2: Stune turned around and went back into the cabin, and

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Speaker 2: I thought, well, this is turned into shit. Hurry, So

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Speaker 2: I turned around and look at the helicopter, and you know,

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Speaker 2: I've got lots of cables, lots of cable. Something happens

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Speaker 2: and it should have been sitting just behind me and

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Speaker 2: holed it was actually moving forward flying. Look, it was

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Speaker 2: flying off. And what had happened was the aircraft and

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Speaker 2: the wind on its nose had shifted, so it started

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Speaker 2: to drift forward, and the boat had started to drift

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Speaker 2: al So the slack cable that had come down that

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Speaker 2: was in the water was slowly getting pulled out. I

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Speaker 2: remember seeing it.

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Speaker 1: The cable you're connected to.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm still connected to the cable of the harness,

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Speaker 2: and you know, I had about maybe twenty feet of

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Speaker 2: slack that was slowly going and I remember going, it's

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Speaker 2: going to go in tight any minute. And I remember

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Speaker 2: flicking it over this sort of wind generator the back

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Speaker 2: of the yacht, and I turned to face a helicopter

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Speaker 2: that was meting away quite rapidly, and the why went

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Speaker 2: tight and I took a step just to protect myself

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Speaker 2: and shot off the boat, dragged me off the boat

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Speaker 2: and I landed. I remember flying through the air, thinking

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Speaker 2: this is not good, and I braced myself to hit

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Speaker 2: the side of a wave, which I did, and I

237
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Speaker 2: went under and a wave come over the top. I

238
00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:51,440
Speaker 2: remember being underwater and quite disorientated because I think I

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Speaker 2: winded myself and I embraced myself and thinking I got

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Speaker 2: to get out of the water, but I didn't know

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Speaker 2: which way I was up, and it's quite turbulent.

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Speaker 1: I remember thinking, camera, sorry to win it up. But

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00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:04,920
Speaker 1: these waves we're talking is what I've got pictured in

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Speaker 1: my mind. I've you've seen sea rescues or when the

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00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:14,320
Speaker 1: waves of just if they're breaking windows on the ship

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Speaker 1: that goes between Bass Strait, the spirit of Tasmania. You're

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Speaker 1: looking at very this is a scary place. You don't

248
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Speaker 1: want to be.

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Speaker 2: Oh look, you know. I mean I remember looking at

250
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Speaker 2: thinking they huge. I mean, they're probably they're higher than

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Speaker 2: probably around about house height five to seven meters.

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Speaker 1: I mean, love the water.

253
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Speaker 2: That's a lot of water. There was no rhythm to

254
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Speaker 2: them anywhere. It's a lot cushing into each other. It's

255
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Speaker 2: just like a washing show.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so you're you've been you've been dragged off the boat,

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Speaker 1: you've hooked up to the helicopter. Helicopters heading in one direction,

258
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Speaker 1: boats in another. You get the jerk and you find

259
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Speaker 1: yourself in the water. You're under the water.

260
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Speaker 2: Yep, amount of breath there was. There was a split

261
00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:56,760
Speaker 2: second where I thought the next one was going to

262
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Speaker 2: be a lung full of water. But I don't know

263
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Speaker 2: how it happened, But talking to the wind shop ery

264
00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:04,800
Speaker 2: later later, he said he lost sight of me because

265
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Speaker 2: I'd gone underneath the aircraft, so he didn't know where

266
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Speaker 2: I was, and he just pulled in the cable, which

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Speaker 2: in the cable because I would have been like pulling

268
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Speaker 2: in the fish. I suppose I was on the end

269
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Speaker 2: of it, and then I appeared. So I got dragged

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Speaker 2: out of the water, got my breath back. And the

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Speaker 2: plan was that I had said to the wind shop rider,

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Speaker 2: and he agreed that if we couldn't get back on

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Speaker 2: the boat, that would go on the water. Right, So

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Speaker 2: I knew he was going to have another attent, but

275
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Speaker 2: not on the boat. He was going to put it

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Speaker 2: back in the water next to the yacht. So and

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Speaker 2: that's what he did. So by that time By the

278
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Speaker 2: time I was going back in the water, right next

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Speaker 2: to the back of the boat, the sailor had come out.

280
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Speaker 2: And what had happened is he didn't get the message

281
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Speaker 2: to us pulled the vowels when he saw us, so

282
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Speaker 2: he actually returned into the yacht to pull the vowels.

283
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Speaker 2: And that's what the delay.

284
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Speaker 1: Was, right, Okay.

285
00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:55,920
Speaker 2: So I was next to the yacht sort of making

286
00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:57,800
Speaker 2: sure that it wasn't going to smack me in the head,

287
00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:00,040
Speaker 2: but it was thrown around by waves and had to

288
00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:02,679
Speaker 2: call him in. And the look on his face when

289
00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:04,520
Speaker 2: I said he was seventy two years old, it's like

290
00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:07,559
Speaker 2: he was a ship's captain on supertankers. He built the

291
00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:09,640
Speaker 2: yacht and sailed the soil around the world and this

292
00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:12,120
Speaker 2: is his last stop. And the look on his face

293
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Speaker 2: was pure terror. I said, you got to get in there.

294
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Speaker 2: I yelled at it him get in the water, and

295
00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:18,640
Speaker 2: he didn't want to go. And I remember seeing him

296
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Speaker 2: just holding onto the railing, shaken, so he didn't want

297
00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:23,160
Speaker 2: to get on the water, and I said, you got

298
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Speaker 2: to get a woman now because I'm gone, and he did,

299
00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:30,320
Speaker 2: thank god. We very quickly with the waves drifted back

300
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Speaker 2: around behind the boat, so I put the strap iron

301
00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:35,160
Speaker 2: kept him up and put the stop and put his

302
00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:37,800
Speaker 2: arms under it, grabbed it, and right then we got

303
00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:42,240
Speaker 2: hit by another wave that forced us both under. Unfortunately,

304
00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:44,200
Speaker 2: that's a chest strap that we do up to make

305
00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:46,160
Speaker 2: sure that they don't slip out, and I hadn't got

306
00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:49,560
Speaker 2: a chance to do that up. Wy've come through and

307
00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,720
Speaker 2: we sort of although we're tied together, I lost hold

308
00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:56,160
Speaker 2: of him just as that happened. The wave went and

309
00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:58,600
Speaker 2: the helicopter move and we got pulled out of the water.

310
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Speaker 2: You know, he under normal conditions, his head should be

311
00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:06,000
Speaker 2: sitting at my chest typed because the arrival the people

312
00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:09,560
Speaker 2: reaching it lower. But for some reason he was higher

313
00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:12,720
Speaker 2: than me. And what happened strop had slipped down under

314
00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:14,520
Speaker 2: his bum and he was sitting on it like a swing.

315
00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:17,000
Speaker 2: And then he was holding onto the wire, which is

316
00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:22,560
Speaker 2: the first situation slipped and falling backwards. His leg had

317
00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:25,280
Speaker 2: kicked me under the arm and I grabbed hold of it.

318
00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:28,840
Speaker 2: So he was hanging outside down in his harness. And

319
00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:31,640
Speaker 2: the normal procedure would be there to signal to the

320
00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:33,400
Speaker 2: wind chopper I put you back in the water, but

321
00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:36,520
Speaker 2: I couldn't because of my hands full. It took a while.

322
00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:38,840
Speaker 2: The wind shopper I realized what was going on and

323
00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:40,360
Speaker 2: he put me back in the water, which is not

324
00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:42,760
Speaker 2: really really what I wanted to do, but it did it.

325
00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:44,920
Speaker 2: And they put me back in the water, and I

326
00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:46,840
Speaker 2: managed to get the harness back on him and the

327
00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:50,120
Speaker 2: chest strap and then give the wind CHOPPERO signal to

328
00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:51,800
Speaker 2: get us out of here, and they pulled us up,

329
00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:55,800
Speaker 2: and I was I remember talking filminch operator about this

330
00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:59,200
Speaker 2: that I reunion that long ao and he said that

331
00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:01,640
Speaker 2: trip back was the quietest time I've ever had a

332
00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:04,800
Speaker 2: helicopter because no one saying a word. And I remember thinking,

333
00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:06,280
Speaker 2: I'm taking a job somewhere else.

334
00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:08,480
Speaker 1: That was the catalyst for.

335
00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:12,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was it funny. I thought I got away

336
00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:14,200
Speaker 2: with that, and I thought, well, you know, maybe the

337
00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:16,600
Speaker 2: next one I won't be so lucky. And it was

338
00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:18,720
Speaker 2: that pretty much that job that maybe decide to take

339
00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:20,520
Speaker 2: the job at Federal Boys.

340
00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:24,760
Speaker 1: I that just unpacking that for a bit, like I

341
00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:27,960
Speaker 1: suppose the longer and I know people that have been

342
00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:33,040
Speaker 1: in dangerous professions, whether the forces all different things, and

343
00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:36,000
Speaker 1: they wonder if they've rolled the dice too many times,

344
00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:38,760
Speaker 1: almost like an epiphany for you at that point in time. Well,

345
00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:40,920
Speaker 1: I got to escape that one, and I'm going to

346
00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:41,840
Speaker 1: be lucky the next time.

347
00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:46,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. I remember getting home and my partner said, what

348
00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:51,280
Speaker 2: do you do today? I said, I had this job. Yeah, yeah,

349
00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:53,720
Speaker 2: you're setting a message now. Apparently I can't remember doing this,

350
00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:55,600
Speaker 2: but I've been center a message on a fine saying

351
00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:58,160
Speaker 2: heading out their backs straight to winch this idiot off

352
00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:02,440
Speaker 2: the yacht, something like don't hurry, I'll contact you service.

353
00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:05,800
Speaker 2: No I did that. Yeah, I must have seen the weather.

354
00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:07,600
Speaker 2: I thought I was better say something, and I told

355
00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:09,840
Speaker 2: her that night. I said I'd already applied for the

356
00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:13,000
Speaker 2: ob and they was snipping around. But I never accepted

357
00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,480
Speaker 2: any roles for them because I made a transfer joined

358
00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:18,360
Speaker 2: there and said you should try it, and I did,

359
00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:20,560
Speaker 2: but they never had any roles that I like. And

360
00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:24,000
Speaker 2: I actually discussed it with my partner and said, whatever

361
00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:25,480
Speaker 2: the next door there is, I'm taking.

362
00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:29,280
Speaker 1: And you just thought after that that rescue, that that

363
00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:30,160
Speaker 1: was enough for you.

364
00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:33,280
Speaker 2: In the Yeah, it was, ugh. I think you know,

365
00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:35,680
Speaker 2: I mean, I think so's you know, you can go

366
00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:39,359
Speaker 2: through your police aviation career without ever doing something like that,

367
00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:42,800
Speaker 2: And you know I've had I had some reasonably dangerous

368
00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:45,800
Speaker 2: ones over the years, but that one just took the cake.

369
00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:49,560
Speaker 1: When you said that trip back in the helicopter was

370
00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:53,160
Speaker 1: one of the most silent. Did the person who rescued

371
00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:56,440
Speaker 1: thank you? Or was he he said thanks for the left?

372
00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:00,320
Speaker 2: Poor bugger was soaken wet I tell this story book.

373
00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:03,840
Speaker 2: Funny thing was we got him a shower, and I

374
00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:07,440
Speaker 2: knew the crewman because we pulled up at another private helicopter

375
00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:10,120
Speaker 2: base and I knew the guys the helicopter. So can

376
00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:12,440
Speaker 2: you get this guy some clothes and underwear and dry

377
00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:14,679
Speaker 2: clothes so they could pull all his clothes together, and

378
00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:17,080
Speaker 2: all we could find this poor yacht was lacy underwear.

379
00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:22,400
Speaker 2: The poor guy had walked away from the helicopter base

380
00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:27,560
Speaker 2: at Essenon with his poor tite between his legs. I

381
00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:30,320
Speaker 2: sort of felt sorry for him in a way. The

382
00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:33,360
Speaker 2: poor bugger had lost his life savings, all his retirement

383
00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:34,040
Speaker 2: money in his yacht.

384
00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:39,720
Speaker 1: What what you had seen and done? And we'll talk

385
00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:45,160
Speaker 1: the AFP then delve deeper into the PTSD. But at

386
00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:48,600
Speaker 1: that point in time, were you you thinking you'll find

387
00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:50,879
Speaker 1: with this? It was sort of well physically, I mean,

388
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:53,560
Speaker 1: in one piece like this hasn't taken a toll on me.

389
00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:56,879
Speaker 2: Look, I remember this. It was six months before I

390
00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:00,680
Speaker 2: resigned and took up the position the under that job,

391
00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:03,680
Speaker 2: and in that six months I just did not want

392
00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:06,800
Speaker 2: to fly. I lost all motivation to fly. I didn't

393
00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:10,200
Speaker 2: think that was abnormal. Yeah, that's probably a normal response.

394
00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:12,200
Speaker 2: I made the decision I was going to go, that's

395
00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:15,520
Speaker 2: where do you want to fly? But in hindsight, losing

396
00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:18,359
Speaker 2: total motivation for what you've been doing for fourteen years

397
00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:22,359
Speaker 2: is definitely a symptom of PTSD. But I certainly didn't

398
00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:24,840
Speaker 2: know that at the time. But then again, I have

399
00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:28,399
Speaker 2: had symptoms of PTSD prior to doing that job. I

400
00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:33,800
Speaker 2: used to blame my insomnia on working shiftwork. But if

401
00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,000
Speaker 2: I look back in hindsight, the first five or six

402
00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:38,640
Speaker 2: years or eight years of shiftwork, I slept like a lot.

403
00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:42,440
Speaker 2: Now it's only towards fifteen twenty years in the job

404
00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:43,480
Speaker 2: that I couldn't sleep at all.

405
00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:47,000
Speaker 1: Okay, the AFP, you've gone across to the AFP. What

406
00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:51,160
Speaker 1: roles were you doing in the AFP? So to explain

407
00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:53,480
Speaker 1: the people that are not for me with the policing

408
00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:58,760
Speaker 1: organizations you've had to resign from Victoria Police apply for

409
00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:01,760
Speaker 1: the AFP, you get excit in there. Do you have

410
00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:04,480
Speaker 1: to go through the academy, start basic training and all that?

411
00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:06,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I had to do the whole riguma role. So

412
00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:11,119
Speaker 2: there was an interview. Back then, there wasn't a lot

413
00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:15,800
Speaker 2: of lateral entry police going over within any police force,

414
00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:18,199
Speaker 2: so a lot of the people had to actually go

415
00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:20,000
Speaker 2: back to the academy. They didn't sort of have any

416
00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:22,920
Speaker 2: recognition for prior learning, and I suppose they can't because

417
00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:26,240
Speaker 2: procedurally it's totally different. Police work never changes no matter

418
00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:30,120
Speaker 2: who you work for, but procedurally it's different. So they

419
00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:34,879
Speaker 2: had made us an offer that I sign up for

420
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:37,600
Speaker 2: a minimum of two years that within that two years

421
00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:41,080
Speaker 2: they were going to train us. Because the whole squad

422
00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:44,800
Speaker 2: went over. They picked about two squads of thirty or

423
00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:47,600
Speaker 2: twenty five or thirty from around the country, and I

424
00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:48,600
Speaker 2: was included in that.

425
00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:52,800
Speaker 1: When you say go over, is this for the.

426
00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:55,119
Speaker 2: Going over to the AFP, we had to go to camera.

427
00:20:55,160 --> 00:21:00,320
Speaker 2: We had to do a abbreviated academy course a nine

428
00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:03,600
Speaker 2: week period and that was a combination of what they

429
00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:07,600
Speaker 2: call their Federal Police Program, which is for national investigations,

430
00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:12,600
Speaker 2: and their policing program for ACPT Policing or uniform Policing CANbus,

431
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:16,600
Speaker 2: so we did an amalgamation of both. They also in

432
00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:20,639
Speaker 2: that training program send us to peacekeeping school so we

433
00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,199
Speaker 2: can deploy overseas, and part of that agreement was that

434
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,399
Speaker 2: once we graduated, we would spend three months in Canberra

435
00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:30,040
Speaker 2: uniform and then we're overseas for two years. The various

436
00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:33,280
Speaker 2: deployments around around the world, and that appealed to me

437
00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,199
Speaker 2: having a father that was first in the military in

438
00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:41,240
Speaker 2: Malaya and then the Air Force and moving around. I

439
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:44,120
Speaker 2: thought I wouldn't do it with the kids, but I'll

440
00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:46,359
Speaker 2: certainly do it what I don't have kids, So yeah,

441
00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:50,040
Speaker 2: I took the job. And the first deployment was well

442
00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:52,520
Speaker 2: after three months in Camber, which is probably the longest

443
00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:54,800
Speaker 2: three months of my work, going back to uniform after

444
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:58,800
Speaker 2: lying around in other coppers, especially in Canberra, probably rather

445
00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:02,520
Speaker 2: have my tens pulled down. I suffered through that and

446
00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:04,960
Speaker 2: the gift at the end was I got deployed to

447
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:07,159
Speaker 2: Solomon Islands.

448
00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:09,199
Speaker 1: And what was the role there in Solomon Islands and

449
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:10,760
Speaker 1: what was the situation there?

450
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:13,280
Speaker 2: It was rebuilding their police force and what happened in

451
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:15,600
Speaker 2: the Solomon Islands. There was a lot of tribal fighting

452
00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:19,639
Speaker 2: between gangs, tribal gangs in the north of the island

453
00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:23,480
Speaker 2: and lighter with tribal gangs on the island of guadal Canal,

454
00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:25,560
Speaker 2: which is the main island. They were fighting. They're actually

455
00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,479
Speaker 2: killing each other their salt weapons and shotguns and knives

456
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:31,639
Speaker 2: and machetes, and there was a heap of islands and

457
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:35,920
Speaker 2: a heap of people dying. Unfortunately, the police force over

458
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,679
Speaker 2: there was ineffective because they too had in fighting between

459
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:42,959
Speaker 2: people that were enlightened and people that they called GUARDI.

460
00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:46,920
Speaker 2: So the Australian government set a contingent of police over

461
00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:50,080
Speaker 2: there in two thousand and three. I think I don't

462
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:51,960
Speaker 2: know how they did it, but the commanding Office the

463
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,360
Speaker 2: AFP managed most of them to give up their guns

464
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:58,520
Speaker 2: right and then it was a slow rebuilding process to

465
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:02,720
Speaker 2: retrain their police and rebuild it and also to hunt

466
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:06,240
Speaker 2: down the people responsible for some of the violence over

467
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:07,600
Speaker 2: the when they had the warfare.

468
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:10,800
Speaker 1: How long were you over there for look?

469
00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:15,639
Speaker 2: I was in and out of the Solomon Islands regularly

470
00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:19,400
Speaker 2: from two thousand and six to twenty eleven. The longest

471
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:22,920
Speaker 2: deployment was four months. The shortest was two weeks.

472
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,160
Speaker 1: And what sort of conditions were you living in over there?

473
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:30,040
Speaker 2: We had a base at the base was we called

474
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,520
Speaker 2: it the guadal Canal Beach Resort. It's not a resort.

475
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,000
Speaker 2: It was near Henderson Field, the old World War two

476
00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 2: airfield that Japanese occupied for years in World War two.

477
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:41,600
Speaker 2: So it was about fifteen minute drive out of town.

478
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:43,840
Speaker 2: And we had what we lived in what were called itses.

479
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:47,399
Speaker 2: So there was a mate of like a insulated aluminium

480
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,840
Speaker 2: with home between it just very simply riveted together. Had

481
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:54,000
Speaker 2: an incondition of two beds, power socket and we lived there,

482
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:57,560
Speaker 2: shared shared rooms and what we do most of the

483
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:01,359
Speaker 2: day depending on what job you had, because everyone got

484
00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 2: a different job. Like the police force, you don't necessarily

485
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 2: do uniform policing. You might be doing HR you might

486
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 2: be training in the academy, and each day you're go

487
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 2: and do your job. And that was for me for

488
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 2: the first stint four months, I was shadowing staff officer

489
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:21,919
Speaker 2: to the Commissioner in charge of Special Operations for the

490
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:26,960
Speaker 2: simmon On's Police. So I was his mentor and my boss,

491
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 2: my feed boss, was mentoring his boss, the commissioner.

492
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,320
Speaker 1: How did you get caught up in the riots there.

493
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,040
Speaker 2: There was really no choice, I suppose. I mean, what

494
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:40,520
Speaker 2: happened was, it was two thousand and six. It was

495
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,399
Speaker 2: accusations that I think of the Prime Minister at the

496
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 2: time of Snyder Renny or something, and there was accuvidations

497
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,040
Speaker 2: that he was funded by the Chinese, he was corrupt.

498
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 2: And what happened was the locals weren't happy with that,

499
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,879
Speaker 2: so they stormed Parliament House and a riot started. It

500
00:24:56,040 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 2: was all hands on deck, so every sworn member the

501
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:05,200
Speaker 2: contingent there, which also included New Zealand compers as well,

502
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 2: had to dress up and right gear and had out

503
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 2: and tackle the rioters. They locked the base down and

504
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,160
Speaker 2: we were given the cars and some very archaic right

505
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 2: gear told to go and fix the issue. And what

506
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:20,479
Speaker 2: happened was that the gangs had started burning police cars

507
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:24,160
Speaker 2: and burning shops up near the Parliament House. They wanted

508
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 2: their way down the hill about three o'clock there in

509
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:31,679
Speaker 2: the main town, cutting that blooting shops. They worked their

510
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 2: way down. When we got there, there was I got

511
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 2: there was cars on fire and thins on fire, crap

512
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:41,359
Speaker 2: everywhere and breaken windows, and they worked their way into Chinatown,

513
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:44,880
Speaker 2: which is a small section in Honiara and play back

514
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 2: to Chinese. So they bought burnt down basically every Chinese

515
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:49,960
Speaker 2: building in Chinatown.

516
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 1: And that that got fairly intensive. Police being injured and

517
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 1: your right shield being cracked and we.

518
00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 2: Have nine seventies right shields that they've been in the

519
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:04,919
Speaker 2: sun too long and shadow when a rock hit Him've

520
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 2: got to give credit to the people that writing they

521
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,159
Speaker 2: were really good rock throwers. Just remember the amount of

522
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,159
Speaker 2: rocks beIN throwner. So I remember our car. The first

523
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,280
Speaker 2: car I had the first day. One was brand new

524
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,920
Speaker 2: Toyota ball drive and that ended up on the main hole.

525
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,359
Speaker 2: I burned to the crown and I think it had

526
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 2: eight thousand k's on it. The second one was also

527
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 2: brand new, and that didn't have a panel or window

528
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 2: left handed eight hours later.

529
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 1: It's another of joined the police, see the world, all

530
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 1: the different experiences you can get. You you've also found

531
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 1: yourself over in christ Church after the earthquakes, a humanitarian operation.

532
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 1: What was your role there?

533
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 2: That was just to restore the policing in christ Church

534
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:53,119
Speaker 2: because after that massive earthquake that killed I think it

535
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 2: killed like two hundred people, Yeah, and it devastated christ Church,

536
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 2: and I think the report was that eighty percent of

537
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 2: the police ice force had been had either lost someone

538
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,400
Speaker 2: or lost a house or been affected by the earthquake.

539
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:10,400
Speaker 2: So the police force was struggling and they had sent

540
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,959
Speaker 2: other coppers from the Northern Ireland and the South Island

541
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 2: to christ Church to help, but it wasn't enough. So

542
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 2: I think there was about a total of two hundred

543
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,959
Speaker 2: Australian ployees that landed there within a couple of days.

544
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,159
Speaker 2: I was there within about ten days and it was

545
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:29,639
Speaker 2: really to augbouent the police force. I don't think most

546
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 2: people realized the sergifican damage of that earthquake. They had

547
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:35,879
Speaker 2: an earthquake a couple either year or a couple of

548
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,239
Speaker 2: years before, and they learned their lesson because people were

549
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:42,880
Speaker 2: running right, they had media everywhere, getting themselves in trouble

550
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 2: around buildings and the places where they shouldn't be. So

551
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,359
Speaker 2: during after this earthquake, being well experienced in it, they

552
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:55,879
Speaker 2: completely fenced off the whole Central Business District block and

553
00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:59,119
Speaker 2: they only allowed the media in three or four spots.

554
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:03,359
Speaker 2: When sitting in Australia and you're watching this devastation of

555
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 2: this earthquake, you only got to see three buildings. There

556
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,840
Speaker 2: was a major building in town, and I think they

557
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:13,920
Speaker 2: included a television broadcast. But you know, to be honest,

558
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 2: I thought it wasn't that bad. You know, three buildings damage,

559
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 2: what's the problem. But when I got there and saw it,

560
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,440
Speaker 2: the whole town was flat. I've got an aerial photo

561
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 2: of it somewhere, and really the TV coverage was very,

562
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,639
Speaker 2: very limited. This place was you know, there was a

563
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,120
Speaker 2: tram there. The tram tracks were buckled in the middle

564
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,640
Speaker 2: of the city. I remembered seeing car. They had this

565
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 2: with an called liquor faction. The liquor faction is like

566
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 2: if you know where you're getting set in concrete and

567
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 2: the water starts fighting the top of the sediment sits

568
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 2: on the top. That's what liquor faction is. So the

569
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 2: vibration of the land during the earthquake, of the land

570
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 2: that christ Shirts was built on was an old river bed,

571
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 2: so all the liquid had come to the surface, and

572
00:28:56,280 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 2: this liquid faction was like gray sludge that it actually

573
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 2: broken through the slabs of houses and swallowed cars. Right,

574
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 2: So you drive down the road in christ Church and

575
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 2: there's a major crack in the ground and the car

576
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,479
Speaker 2: consumed by this gray, messive looking faction. There were whole

577
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 2: suburbs that were clientless because houses had significant structural damage

578
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 2: and could we lived in. There was a whole ghost suburb.

579
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 2: It's just an amazing the amount of damage that we

580
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 2: didn't know about.

581
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 1: What you what you're describing talking your career, and you know,

582
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 1: we've taken you from scary alcol It, scary rescue in

583
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 1: bas Strait, You've Solomon Islands and an experience there and

584
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 1: understanding different issues in different places across the world, looking

585
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 1: at natural disasters. It's like to me advertisement for policing,

586
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 1: and then we can throw in the mix that with

587
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 1: the AFP, you were doing some investigation work drugs, international

588
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 1: drug import and different things like that.

589
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 2: Twenty eleven, I transferred out of the section that I

590
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 2: was working in that did overseas deployments, peacekeeping and also

591
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 2: the humanitarian stuff, and I went into investigations. It was

592
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 2: not really by choice, It's just that the office that

593
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 2: I was working was moving to camera and I didn't

594
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 2: move the camera. And it sort of reset my career

595
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 2: a bit because it sort of went back about twenty

596
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 2: five years to when I was almost considering becoming a

597
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 2: detective at it's play station, but a major career move

598
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 2: and reinventing, to say the least, going from a career

599
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 2: that was out of investigations or police work since nineteen

600
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 2: ninety two and in twenty eleven found myself an investigations team.

601
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 1: How do you enjoy that?

602
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 2: Look? To start, I didn't. I was a fish out

603
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 2: of water. Like I said before, when I last did

604
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 2: an investigation shop with a plane closing unit. We had typewriters,

605
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 2: no photocopies. We used to use carbon paper and paper

606
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 2: we get more or phones.

607
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 1: I can imagine, and looking at the diversity of your career,

608
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 1: especially your time in the air wing. No, we don't fly.

609
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 1: You've got to drive. That would have been hard for

610
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 1: you to come to terms with.

611
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I got to drive.

612
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 1: A car, which destination that I go into overseas? Now

613
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 1: you're working working here in Australia, so there would have

614
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 1: been a few adjustments. And then those things that they

615
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 1: call computers that you never thought they'd catch on a

616
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 1: front and center in your office.

617
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 2: Amazing things. And a photo copy that can runs many

618
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 2: copies as you want any color.

619
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can tell an old cop if I speak

620
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 1: to them if they complain about the phaeo copies. You know,

621
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 1: when we used to type up those documents, like the

622
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 1: fact sheets or whatever with the carbon paper. If you

623
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 1: made a mistake, you had to go through with the

624
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 1: tip X and correct it all on the manual typewriters

625
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 1: and then the fade out copier in the police station.

626
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 1: I don't think there was one police station in Australia

627
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 1: that the fade out copier wasn't continually broken.

628
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. Do you remember getting the old typewriter and had

629
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 2: to smash down the He's so hard to get through

630
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 2: five layers of carbon paper. Yeah, amazing. And then when

631
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 2: you got this and I remember thinking, you know, I

632
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 2: remember getting to my first investigations team. There was this

633
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 2: young guy there'd just been a few years out of

634
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 2: the academy and I thought, boy, when I joined the

635
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 2: job and wear a uniform, I think he was a

636
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 2: nappies But he was on this computer tapping out this

637
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 2: AFFI David, and I thought, what have I done?

638
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 1: It would have would have been hard for it, but

639
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 1: you got yourself in some interesting jobs. You were what

640
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 1: was that drug case where the drugs have been swapped

641
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:37,720
Speaker 1: by the police and you're driving the driving the truck

642
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 1: and delivering it to the bad guys? What was that

643
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 1: one about?

644
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 2: So I was working on a team that just did

645
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 2: whatever drug importations come in or the job we're investigating.

646
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 2: And because I was such a fishient out of the water,

647
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 2: I volunteered for the stuff that wasn't process driven because

648
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 2: I didn't know the process. What happened was a chipping

649
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:02,960
Speaker 2: camplainer came in. They had some information and they looked

650
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 2: at the container and found that it had eight ride

651
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 2: on wal mars In crates and hid none of the

652
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 2: crates was packs in a total of two hundred and

653
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 2: seventy something kilos of compressed cocaine. Usually what happened would

654
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 2: happen is they'd follow the drugs and find out who's

655
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 2: bringing it in. But you can't obviously let two hundred

656
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 2: and seventy kilos of real cocaine hit the streets, so

657
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 2: they replace it with a substitute, and then we do

658
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 2: our investigation and we follow the shipment to see where

659
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 2: it goes. So I live it through. They needed someone

660
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 2: to volunteer to sit at the bonding yard where they

661
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 2: hold the container off site from customs. In a bonding yard,

662
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 2: customs gear on it, a lock on it until it's

663
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 2: cleared and allowed to go over the person that's bringing in.

664
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 2: So I said, look, I'll volunteer. So I had to

665
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 2: go get myself a brand new fluo worker's shirt, mess

666
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 2: it up in the car to make it look like

667
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 2: I've been doing it for years. And I would sit

668
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:09,240
Speaker 2: there in the coffee room of this bonding warehouse waiting

669
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 2: for some contact from the person bringing it in. And

670
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 2: I've been there for three days. I was board ships,

671
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 2: and then all of a sudden, I get my phone

672
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 2: call and it's the couples my boys sing, all the

673
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:28,240
Speaker 2: guys ap currently coming in today and lunchtime in rolls

674
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 2: this this young kid who wants to check on his

675
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:37,799
Speaker 2: shipping container that's arrived. So I go and deal with

676
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 2: him and saw a strike up a conversation again Nami

677
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 2: and said, look, I think it's going to be clear,

678
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:46,239
Speaker 2: so you know when you need it delivered, to just

679
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:48,920
Speaker 2: give us a call once it's clear, and I'll come

680
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,920
Speaker 2: and bring it to you. And he said, you know

681
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 2: how to use a full clift and use a full

682
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:58,439
Speaker 2: c lift, I'll call you'll call me. So a couple

683
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 2: of days later we arranged for it to be cleared

684
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:03,880
Speaker 2: through customs, and he called. I got on the phone

685
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:07,880
Speaker 2: and he said he wanted to delivered to a storage

686
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:11,839
Speaker 2: facility PORTLM. So I said, yep, I'll bring a truck

687
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 2: and i'll bring it. I'll flad it. So we laded

688
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:17,879
Speaker 2: the containers into a truck that I hired, and off

689
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 2: we went. I had these eight long I was a

690
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:24,959
Speaker 2: two hundred and seventy one KO cocaine in it, doing

691
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 2: my first drug delivery. Funny thing is, and we had

692
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 2: checked about this previously. I was. I took a wrong

693
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 2: turn in this truck while I was heading to the

694
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:37,360
Speaker 2: storage facility to see this kid, and I had to

695
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 2: do a U turn back around to come out go

696
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:43,360
Speaker 2: the right way, and I backed into a powerpole and

697
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 2: there was this massive bang of just that, an accident

698
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:48,719
Speaker 2: and a lot. I can't call the coppers because I'm

699
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:51,480
Speaker 2: supposed to be delivering cocaine, so I had a quick check.

700
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:53,360
Speaker 2: There was no damage. So I left the scene of

701
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:59,479
Speaker 2: an accident, as all good drug deliveries do. Yeah yeah.

702
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 2: Only got to the delivery yard and he was there.

703
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 2: He was nervous as buggery, this kid, excepting his drug

704
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 2: delivery and nearly dropped one of the with the fort

705
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 2: nearly dropped one of the ride on malors and the

706
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:17,319
Speaker 2: bottom of the shipping container crack AhR, shit, they're going

707
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:19,759
Speaker 2: to see it. And his eyes just went, Oh my god,

708
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 2: my drug is going to fall out. It's all right.

709
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 2: I was all right, and I delivered it for him

710
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 2: and I thought, you know, in about six hours, this

711
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:30,279
Speaker 2: kid's going to get locked up and he's probably going

712
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 2: to do you know, fifteen twenty years when drugs in

713
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:39,720
Speaker 2: Australia and the little bugger gave me a tip fifty bucks. Well, behold,

714
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:41,719
Speaker 2: you got to rest alone of that night after he

715
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:43,920
Speaker 2: had cut it up and divided and he was delivering

716
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:44,399
Speaker 2: it to his.

717
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 1: Heels again things like that. I'm hearing the story and

718
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,839
Speaker 1: it's well say fun and they don't want people to

719
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:55,840
Speaker 1: misinterpret it, but it is fun, isn't it. Being involved

720
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 1: in operation. The adrenaline's going, you know, the pressure's on.

721
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 1: You can't make a mistake. There's something something to be

722
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 1: said from that. You did a little bit, and I'm

723
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:07,799
Speaker 1: not sure how much you can talk about it, but

724
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 1: human trafficking as well, like this is a crime that

725
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 1: we don't don't hear much about in Australia.

726
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a crime type that I never knew about.

727
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,720
Speaker 2: And back then, you know, in two thousand and probably

728
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:26,399
Speaker 2: would have been twelve and thirteen. Now there's a lot

729
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:28,799
Speaker 2: of people have been smuggling in the country illegally by

730
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:35,359
Speaker 2: boats into Christmas. I understand there are arrivals daily and

731
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 2: you know, public people smugglers were making an absolute killer

732
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,759
Speaker 2: of a cash putting those people in. So I was

733
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:45,799
Speaker 2: hunting on a strike team that tracked down people smugglers,

734
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 2: totally interested in crime type that I had no idea

735
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 2: of the process of people smuggling.

736
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:56,160
Speaker 1: No, well, it's something that it seems archaic that it

737
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:58,840
Speaker 1: wouldn't go on, you know, it seems like a crime,

738
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 1: but clear it does now when you're at Christmas Island.

739
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:07,240
Speaker 1: That was where you started to see changes in yourself

740
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 1: at Christmas at Christmas Island a bit withdrawn or different things. Yeah.

741
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 2: Again, I didn't I didn't want to work. I didn't

742
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 2: actually want to get out of bed. It was quite

743
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 2: difficult to get out of a room and go to

744
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:24,880
Speaker 2: work each day. I just totally lost motivation, almost identical

745
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:29,359
Speaker 2: to ten years prior. In two thousand and five when

746
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:31,799
Speaker 2: I finished at a helicopter job and I was not

747
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 2: motivated to come to work or fly at all. It

748
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,480
Speaker 2: was exactly the same thing, but just later, you know,

749
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:40,480
Speaker 2: and there was no specific reason in Christmas Island not

750
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 2: to go to work. It wasn't difficult work. We spent

751
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:46,879
Speaker 2: most of our time interviewing illegal immigrants to find out

752
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 2: who the snuggler was. It wasn't difficult work. The conditions

753
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 2: were okay, the room's okay, the food was good.

754
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:53,920
Speaker 1: You know.

755
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 2: We used to have a full drive and two around

756
00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:58,960
Speaker 2: the island around days off. But I was just not

757
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 2: motivated to any absolutely nothing. I think what didn't help

758
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 2: was the fly. I didn't It's terrible, yeah, really rough weather.

759
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 2: I remember it took us all day and we never

760
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:14,879
Speaker 2: got in there, landing back at Perth eight hours later.

761
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:17,280
Speaker 1: The flying is that triggering from your.

762
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:20,560
Speaker 2: I suggest I suggest so, because so you know, I

763
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 2: remember landing going shit, this is not good. And that's

764
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:26,480
Speaker 2: nowball to the point where I just didn't want to

765
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:27,359
Speaker 2: do a Christmas all.

766
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:31,239
Speaker 1: I know that it's hard for any any cop to

767
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:33,279
Speaker 1: sort of put your hand up and say say you're

768
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 1: not not coping, But it came came to a head

769
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 1: for you after Christmas Island, the incident on the train.

770
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 1: Do you want to tell us that?

771
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 2: So it was just a normal shift. I remember I

772
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:49,360
Speaker 2: had caught a couple of people have been sentenced that

773
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 2: I was the informant for a couple of drug importers.

774
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 2: Good thing is one got nine one years, one got

775
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:57,239
Speaker 2: twenty one years. You know. I had a couple of

776
00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:01,000
Speaker 2: beers after work and then court train home and had

777
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:04,320
Speaker 2: a massive just breakdown. I sort of blacked out for

778
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:08,400
Speaker 2: a minute, and then I couldn't stop shaking. A respiratory

779
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:11,560
Speaker 2: right went through the roof. I could film or pulse

780
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:15,000
Speaker 2: some heart beating through my neck. I had no idea

781
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:16,959
Speaker 2: where I was and freaked out. I had no idea

782
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,880
Speaker 2: what was going on, absolutely none. And I remember the

783
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:25,279
Speaker 2: kids and my wife were sitting outside the station waking

784
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 2: to pick me up, and I was just an absolute

785
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:29,600
Speaker 2: blubbering mess. I don't know how to go off the train.

786
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 2: But usually the kids are sitting with the window open.

787
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 2: They're sitting on the seal and waving that dad coming down,

788
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 2: because it's a great thing to see the dad get

789
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:40,480
Speaker 2: off the train. They're only six and eight, and the

790
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 2: look on their face when they saw me was just

791
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:47,279
Speaker 2: pure beer. And I couldn't. I couldn't even manage to

792
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 2: open the door handle. And my wife had said, what's

793
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:53,440
Speaker 2: going on? So I got no idea, absolutely no idea.

794
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 2: So managed to get me home, drop the kids off somewhere,

795
00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 2: and I just sat in the bedroom. You know, my heart,

796
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:05,920
Speaker 2: I was still through the river. And she called police welfare,

797
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 2: Victoria police welfare, but you know they couldn't touch me

798
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 2: at that time. It wasn't with Victoria Police. Unfortunately. When

799
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 2: she rang a p wed for welfare and Canberra was

800
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:19,839
Speaker 2: in Melbourne, so I was lucky that my wife, you're

801
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 2: a psyched nurse and she just have lunch with her

802
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 2: that day. So they rang her and she come around

803
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:29,080
Speaker 2: and she said, I actually said to this poor lady,

804
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:32,640
Speaker 2: there's no one'tgoing to hospital, leaves the house. She says, okay,

805
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:34,640
Speaker 2: I want to send your hospital if you can calm down.

806
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 2: So you managed to calm again. Nadia, her name is,

807
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 2: I can't forget her name, looked after me so well.

808
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 2: Since she managed to calm me down, I got to bed.

809
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:47,120
Speaker 2: The next day, I managed to get him to see

810
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:49,879
Speaker 2: my doctor and she took one look at me when

811
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:51,839
Speaker 2: I walked in and said, I know exactly what's wrong.

812
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:53,800
Speaker 2: That's it's the last day I ever worked.

813
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 1: I've heard other people tell similar stories. A place I'm

814
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 1: talking about where hits real sudden and it's almost like

815
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:06,480
Speaker 1: as police or and I'm not sure whether it's a

816
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 1: career that happens or the type of person you become

817
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:12,320
Speaker 1: working in the police. So many people choose to ignore

818
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:14,319
Speaker 1: it until it gets to that point where you just

819
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 1: can't ignore it. You're just not functioning, so you can't

820
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 1: hide it anymore. What was going through your mind was

821
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:23,759
Speaker 1: hard for you to come to terms with, Like you're

822
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 1: a block that's done all these things and never taken

823
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:29,560
Speaker 1: a backward step, never put your hand up for help.

824
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:31,879
Speaker 1: You're helping other people, and all of a sudden you're

825
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:34,359
Speaker 1: going to go, hey, I can't go. How was it

826
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 1: personally for you?

827
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, you hit then ail on the head. I mean,

828
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:40,600
Speaker 2: your self worth takes a massive dive. No, you have

829
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 2: this really great career, You've done some exciting stuff, just

830
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 2: like you said, and you think you're ten for tall bulletproof.

831
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 2: I think you're made for the job. You do it

832
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 2: really well. And then all of a sudden something happens

833
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 2: to you that they call a mental health issue that

834
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:56,480
Speaker 2: ends your police career. So suddenly you think, well, maybe

835
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:58,719
Speaker 2: I wasn't as good as I thought, Maybe I wasn't

836
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:00,920
Speaker 2: as strong as what I thought. You should never done

837
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:02,920
Speaker 2: that job in the first place, so your self worth

838
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 2: takes a massive beating. I think it's one of the

839
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:10,759
Speaker 2: symptoms of PTSD that is incredibly dangerous but underrated. You know,

840
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:13,920
Speaker 2: a lot of bad shit happens because of your self worth. Problems,

841
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 2: re licenships, alcohol, drugs, suicide, depression, all can come from

842
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:22,000
Speaker 2: self worth and there's nothing worse. And yeah, it's very

843
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:25,759
Speaker 2: difficult when you've got self low self worth to get

844
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:30,560
Speaker 2: over yourself requires a totally different mind change, and not

845
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 2: everyone can do it by themself.

846
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:35,440
Speaker 1: I reference in part one we're talking about. You know,

847
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 1: in policing, you're meant to be able to do this,

848
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:39,279
Speaker 1: you're meant to be able to do that, and you're

849
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:43,320
Speaker 1: weak if you can't. That's it's a culture that plays

850
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:46,280
Speaker 1: in part and I don't think it's just the organization's fault.

851
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:48,279
Speaker 1: I think it's a type of people that sign up

852
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 1: for policing generally, what they're driven by someone like you

853
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 1: that have done so many things and it catches you.

854
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 1: I've had someone else on the podcast, a good cop,

855
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 1: a hard cop that was really at the front to

856
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 1: front end of everything. It hit him that quickly when

857
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:08,279
Speaker 1: he got got help and it had to put his

858
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 1: hand up, and he felt like he was letting down

859
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 1: his mates. He felt like he was an embarrassment to

860
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:15,279
Speaker 1: his family and his kids and all that shit. And

861
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:19,800
Speaker 1: he's come back now. And basically the lesson he learned

862
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:22,959
Speaker 1: that if he addressed it earlier, perhaps he still could

863
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:26,439
Speaker 1: have been in the cops. What's your what's your take

864
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:27,640
Speaker 1: on your journey?

865
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:32,400
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, exactly. I mean, one, you need to address

866
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 2: it earlier. But if you're not aware of what the

867
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 2: symptoms are, and like I said, I thought insomnia was

868
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:40,279
Speaker 2: just for night night shift. Lack of inulance is just

869
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:43,920
Speaker 2: pile of the parcel of doing something too. I suppose

870
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,279
Speaker 2: if I had to name what the symptoms are PTS Two,

871
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 2: I would have noticed that I probably started suffering those

872
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,759
Speaker 2: symptoms back in the mid nineties and may have avoided

873
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:55,920
Speaker 2: the end of the police Carrier of twenty twenty.

874
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 1: When I finally, what are the symptoms? You look at

875
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 1: that you've said in some there what the other things is.

876
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:05,280
Speaker 2: The other way is there was a bit of biness, drinking,

877
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:10,920
Speaker 2: you know, there was memory loss, depression. There's about I

878
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:14,279
Speaker 2: think there's about twenty odd symptoms. But to be diagnosed

879
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 2: with PTSD you have to have a certain number of them.

880
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:20,439
Speaker 2: A lot of people don't know. To have PTSD, full

881
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 2: blown PTSD, you have to have depression or anxiety. It's

882
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:27,279
Speaker 2: part of the diagnosis. And I didn't know that either.

883
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 2: I didn't even know what the signs were. Depression just

884
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:31,759
Speaker 2: sometimes I thought it was too lazy to get out

885
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:35,040
Speaker 2: of bed, and just having a bad day. Socially, withdrawn

886
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:38,239
Speaker 2: is another big one. You start withdrawing from your friends.

887
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:40,239
Speaker 2: You don't want to go out anymore. You are to

888
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:42,880
Speaker 2: be seen in public, you don't want to associate with

889
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:45,920
Speaker 2: more than one person at a time. I had a

890
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:49,280
Speaker 2: lot of hyper vigilance issues. As I was a cafe,

891
00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:52,200
Speaker 2: someone dropped the spoon, I'd hit the roof because your

892
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 2: brain doesn't pick up. But that's not a threat that

893
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:57,360
Speaker 2: thinks everything's a threat. It's hyper vigilance when you're waiting

894
00:45:57,400 --> 00:45:59,839
Speaker 2: for something to happen. I had a lot of that

895
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 2: towards the end. And again, if I hadn't known that

896
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:05,759
Speaker 2: that was part of PTUs too, then you know, I

897
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:08,520
Speaker 2: would have sought help. Hopefully, I think I would have

898
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:11,240
Speaker 2: been smart enough to seek help. A lot of people

899
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:13,479
Speaker 2: just ignore it or just ride off as something else,

900
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:18,200
Speaker 2: and no one's immune to it. I don't think. You know,

901
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:22,440
Speaker 2: they can recruit people that are into it. They recruit

902
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:24,520
Speaker 2: people that want to get out there and do this job.

903
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:28,759
Speaker 2: That's why they're toppers. Some people will make good coppers. Unfortunately,

904
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:30,880
Speaker 2: it's a byproduct. I don't know what they're going to

905
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:34,960
Speaker 2: do about it, apart from changing coppers about the symptoms

906
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:38,280
Speaker 2: and what they are and how to recognize it, manage

907
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 2: counseling and stuff like that.

908
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:45,399
Speaker 1: Your journey, how have you many to navigate your way

909
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:48,960
Speaker 1: through from that low point to where you are now?

910
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:50,799
Speaker 1: Has it been a tough journey? Yeah?

911
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:54,440
Speaker 2: It has. I mean, you know, we've got to you've

912
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:57,799
Speaker 2: got to go through the workhover process and the tom

913
00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:01,520
Speaker 2: care process, and that's never a good one. And I

914
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 2: went through that process, which is yeah, it just makes

915
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 2: recovery so much worse. I had to prove to the

916
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:13,960
Speaker 2: insurance company that it was police work that caused my PTSD,

917
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:17,280
Speaker 2: even though I'd only ever had two jobs in my life,

918
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:20,360
Speaker 2: both of the policing, and that took about three years.

919
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 2: So you know, eventually they'll bring in the reverse onus,

920
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:26,359
Speaker 2: and I think they need to do that as soon

921
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:30,319
Speaker 2: as possible. I think in Canada nowadays, and I think

922
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 2: in Queensland. I'm not one under posential that if you

923
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 2: die police officer emergency services and you're diagnosed with PTSD,

924
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 2: that's automatically attributed to work, and the insurance company have

925
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:41,760
Speaker 2: to prove.

926
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 1: That it isn't right, so the owners goes back on them. Yeah.

927
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:48,359
Speaker 2: The other side is the police forces are way better

928
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:53,799
Speaker 2: at recognizing it and they're boosting numbers for psychologists and

929
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:57,640
Speaker 2: all say mandatory debrief. I mean my whole police career,

930
00:47:57,920 --> 00:47:59,760
Speaker 2: I never had a critical incident debrief.

931
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:02,759
Speaker 1: Well, we're becoming more aware of it.

932
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:05,960
Speaker 2: I think nowadays to you that they don't expect the

933
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 2: average cop and to do a lifetime service. When you

934
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:11,880
Speaker 2: and I joined, it was a career and they expected

935
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:13,919
Speaker 2: it to retire at sixty five. Yeah.

936
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:16,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, they virtually mapped it out for you, didn't they.

937
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:19,240
Speaker 2: Now I think if they get five to ten years

938
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:21,440
Speaker 2: service out of police officers. They are happy.

939
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:25,279
Speaker 1: Well, and both you and I know. The trouble is

940
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:27,839
Speaker 1: if you only get that much, you're only coming into

941
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:31,239
Speaker 1: hitting your straps after about ten years with the experience

942
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 1: and the ability to manage it. But I'm sad and

943
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 1: the fact that it's so hard to attract police across

944
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:44,640
Speaker 1: the country and everyone's under resourced in policing. And I

945
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:48,480
Speaker 1: think it is a great job. Yeah, you pay a

946
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:50,520
Speaker 1: price to a degree and the things that you see.

947
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 1: But for a young blake like yourself that joined the

948
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 1: cops wasn't concentrating when he was meant to be studying

949
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:59,799
Speaker 1: at school and trying to look for a life, how

950
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:01,160
Speaker 1: do you look back at your career?

951
00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:04,920
Speaker 2: Well, great memories now, I mean I had, you know,

952
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:09,520
Speaker 2: second thoughts early on when i'd finished work because of

953
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:13,399
Speaker 2: the BTSD. As coppers, like you said before, we never

954
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 2: go to jobs where people are happy and safe. They're

955
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:19,799
Speaker 2: always really shit, you know. When what we do is

956
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 2: as coppers, we focus on the bad stuff because that's

957
00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:24,040
Speaker 2: what we talk about when we have a ber. We

958
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 2: talk about the bad ship and the bad stories. And

959
00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:29,760
Speaker 2: I think when your career ends, it's a bit bitter,

960
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:32,920
Speaker 2: you know, you start to concentrate on how much you

961
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:35,120
Speaker 2: hated your bosses and how much we paying the us well,

962
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:37,719
Speaker 2: and they're really bad jobs that you went to, and

963
00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:41,200
Speaker 2: that sort of defines your whole career. But I think

964
00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 2: what we need to do is concentrate about the people

965
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 2: that we actually helped, and there's many of them, and

966
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:49,439
Speaker 2: you would know yourself to concentrate on the really shit

967
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:54,400
Speaker 2: murders and the bad homicide scenes, nearly concentrate is the

968
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:58,360
Speaker 2: fact that throughout your career there's far more people that

969
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:01,640
Speaker 2: you helped and better life because of your input. We

970
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:02,600
Speaker 2: tend to forget.

971
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:06,600
Speaker 1: About that one. You've got Bravery awards, and I know

972
00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:10,200
Speaker 1: that even came as for the bats strait and other things.

973
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:13,799
Speaker 1: I know that even came back to cause conflict in

974
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 1: your in your mind that yeah, I don't deserve that.

975
00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:19,640
Speaker 1: I was just doing my job type thing. There was

976
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:23,320
Speaker 1: nothing brave about what I was doing. But I think

977
00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:26,200
Speaker 1: if we take on your advice, you know, look at

978
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:29,319
Speaker 1: the people you help, Like, I don't know, if I

979
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:32,359
Speaker 1: was drowning in the water and you turned up, you'd

980
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 1: be my favorite person in the world for the rest

981
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:39,080
Speaker 1: of my life. And the people in the accidents that

982
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:42,040
Speaker 1: you've helped. So I hope you can hang on to that.

983
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:44,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do now, but at the time, you know,

984
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 2: you don't, don't think about that and the fun times

985
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:50,680
Speaker 2: you had. I mean, I still say policing is the

986
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:52,800
Speaker 2: best job you can have with your pants one.

987
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:55,439
Speaker 1: Well, that's right, what are you what are you doing

988
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 1: with yourself now?

989
00:50:57,120 --> 00:50:59,920
Speaker 2: I've got a teenage son to look after and a

990
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:01,360
Speaker 2: teenage daughter to get the school.

991
00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:03,080
Speaker 1: That's a full time job in itself.

992
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:04,880
Speaker 2: You want to come at a full time job and

993
00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:06,959
Speaker 2: when they're not there, I gather it like a local

994
00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:11,600
Speaker 2: cafe and have a coffee and I'm amazed at how

995
00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:12,400
Speaker 2: quick the days go.

996
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:16,480
Speaker 1: Your book, I've had had a read of it, as

997
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:19,600
Speaker 1: I've said, read it cover to cover, and I think

998
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:21,239
Speaker 1: it was a great book and it really gave me

999
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:23,320
Speaker 1: an insight into the things that you do as a

1000
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:25,920
Speaker 1: police and it's not sort of I don't think people

1001
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:29,200
Speaker 1: realize the type of trauma that police see in their career,

1002
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:33,239
Speaker 1: in most police officers' career, and it's quite confronting when

1003
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:35,560
Speaker 1: you put it put it down in writing. Did that

1004
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:37,480
Speaker 1: help you in any way writing the book?

1005
00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:40,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, it definitely did. I mean It took me three

1006
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:42,160
Speaker 2: years to write it, so it was a long process.

1007
00:51:42,239 --> 00:51:44,200
Speaker 1: Were you doing that on the manual typewriter? No?

1008
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:49,600
Speaker 2: I had a computer, all right, I bought You know,

1009
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:54,440
Speaker 2: it was a long process. For the most part therapeutic,

1010
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:58,080
Speaker 2: but you know, there are times where you start going

1011
00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:01,120
Speaker 2: down a rabbit hole and start I open up a

1012
00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:03,520
Speaker 2: can of worms that probably should have been left closed.

1013
00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:06,160
Speaker 2: So you're going to go down that path of writing

1014
00:52:06,239 --> 00:52:08,560
Speaker 2: about trauma and your experience, you know, to be prepared

1015
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:11,799
Speaker 2: for that. I thought of wasn't but sort of accepted it,

1016
00:52:12,239 --> 00:52:15,360
Speaker 2: and then of course it's good for your family. I

1017
00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:18,759
Speaker 2: realized towards the end of the process that this might

1018
00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 2: be the only way that my kids are going to

1019
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:24,640
Speaker 2: find out exactly what happened to dad and why it's

1020
00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:28,080
Speaker 2: such a grumpy prick and didn't want to go out

1021
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:32,000
Speaker 2: with the family or didn't want to go to these functions.

1022
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:34,400
Speaker 2: But it's got a reason why. I understand it. My

1023
00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:37,080
Speaker 2: kids do understand it. My son's read the book, he

1024
00:52:37,239 --> 00:52:38,399
Speaker 2: gets it well.

1025
00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:41,600
Speaker 1: It does help because quite often they have no idea

1026
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:46,000
Speaker 1: what you're going through and they probably look at you differently. Well,

1027
00:52:46,440 --> 00:52:48,720
Speaker 1: we'll wrap it up here. I just want to say

1028
00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:52,480
Speaker 1: thanks for coming on the podcast and thanks for the

1029
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:55,400
Speaker 1: service that you've done. And I don't think you should

1030
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 1: ever underestimate. Yeah, we see these blokes. I've never actually

1031
00:52:59,560 --> 00:53:01,880
Speaker 1: thought about, who is that person being dangled from the

1032
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:05,600
Speaker 1: helicopter that we watch on the nightly news, rescuing people

1033
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:08,040
Speaker 1: and the other stuff that you've done in policing. Says

1034
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:10,359
Speaker 1: you'd walk away, walk away very proud.

1035
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:12,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, and look I do. And then at the end

1036
00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:14,640
Speaker 2: of the day, if I had my time over again,

1037
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:18,719
Speaker 2: I'll do it exactly the same way. Cheers, Thank you,