1 00:00:04,050 --> 00:00:06,420 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed daily interview. I'm Sean 2 00:00:06,420 --> 00:00:10,050 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. There's a lot of hype around electric vehicles at 3 00:00:10,050 --> 00:00:11,940 Sean Aylmer: the moment, and in other parts of the world at 4 00:00:11,940 --> 00:00:15,750 Sean Aylmer: least, the take- up rate is strong. It's improving a 5 00:00:15,750 --> 00:00:18,600 Sean Aylmer: bit here, but Australia still has a long way to 6 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:20,880 Sean Aylmer: go before it catches up to places like Europe and 7 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:23,430 Sean Aylmer: the US. Behind the scenes though, a huge amount of 8 00:00:23,430 --> 00:00:26,520 Sean Aylmer: work is being done to establish the infrastructure needed to 9 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:29,340 Sean Aylmer: support the rise of EVs. One of the companies pushing 10 00:00:29,340 --> 00:00:33,000 Sean Aylmer: it forward is Everty, a tech company working with companies 11 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:37,920 Sean Aylmer: on EV charging solutions. Carola Jonas is the founder and CEO 12 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:40,170 Sean Aylmer: of Everty. Carola, welcome to Fear and Greed. 13 00:00:40,740 --> 00:00:41,760 Carola Jonas: Thanks for having me, Sean. 14 00:00:42,570 --> 00:00:46,380 Sean Aylmer: We'll get to what Everty does. But upfront, let's start 15 00:00:46,380 --> 00:00:50,100 Sean Aylmer: by looking into the future. When do you think electric 16 00:00:50,100 --> 00:00:54,270 Sean Aylmer: vehicles will be a normal part of life in Australia 17 00:00:54,330 --> 00:00:55,530 Sean Aylmer: rather than a novelty? 18 00:00:56,430 --> 00:00:59,880 Carola Jonas: That is a very good question because the forecast by 19 00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:02,700 Carola Jonas: all the experts, they differ quite a lot. But I 20 00:01:02,700 --> 00:01:05,880 Carola Jonas: do believe that we're going to see 80% of any 21 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:09,929 Carola Jonas: car sold being EVs by 2030. But it could also 22 00:01:09,930 --> 00:01:13,260 Carola Jonas: happen earlier if price parity between an EV and a 23 00:01:13,260 --> 00:01:18,660 Carola Jonas: petrol car hits up Australia in 2026 or 2027, then 24 00:01:18,990 --> 00:01:21,569 Carola Jonas: it would be enormous thing to buy the electric one 25 00:01:21,569 --> 00:01:25,050 Carola Jonas: because it's cheaper to run and nicer to drive. It 26 00:01:25,050 --> 00:01:27,390 Carola Jonas: depends a little bit on where the market stands in 27 00:01:27,390 --> 00:01:30,300 Carola Jonas: the next, let's say five to seven years. 28 00:01:30,780 --> 00:01:33,060 Sean Aylmer: Okay, we'll get into that in a moment. What does 29 00:01:33,090 --> 00:01:33,960 Sean Aylmer: Everty do? 30 00:01:34,890 --> 00:01:38,910 Carola Jonas: We are predominantly a software company, but also a charging 31 00:01:38,910 --> 00:01:43,530 Carola Jonas: infrastructure services company. And so basically what we do is 32 00:01:43,530 --> 00:01:47,580 Carola Jonas: we install and maintain charging infrastructure, but we also have 33 00:01:47,700 --> 00:01:50,670 Carola Jonas: that software layer, which is an operating system on a 34 00:01:50,670 --> 00:01:54,360 Carola Jonas: computer, or your Microsoft Office on a computer. You really 35 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:57,930 Carola Jonas: do need an application that helps you to enable and 36 00:01:58,410 --> 00:02:02,220 Carola Jonas: operate your infrastructure, especially when it's unattended. Somewhere along the 37 00:02:02,220 --> 00:02:04,440 Carola Jonas: highway, you need remote visibility. 38 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:08,370 Sean Aylmer: So if I think of this in an internal combustion 39 00:02:08,370 --> 00:02:12,120 Sean Aylmer: terms, someone produces the petrol pump, and someone installs the 40 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:14,130 Sean Aylmer: petrol pump and it sits there, but someone's got to 41 00:02:14,220 --> 00:02:16,860 Sean Aylmer: operate it. And that's what you are talking about. 42 00:02:17,250 --> 00:02:20,880 Carola Jonas: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And similar to a lot of the 43 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:24,750 Carola Jonas: petrol stations now providing apps to use and pay at 44 00:02:24,750 --> 00:02:27,930 Carola Jonas: the petrol pump, you do the same with the Everty app. You 45 00:02:27,930 --> 00:02:29,910 Carola Jonas: go to a charger and you use the app to 46 00:02:29,910 --> 00:02:32,519 Carola Jonas: start, stop it, and process the payment. 47 00:02:33,270 --> 00:02:36,839 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So it relies on other parties like commercial buildings, 48 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:41,639 Sean Aylmer: or residential developments, or flats, looking to incorporate EV charging 49 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:45,870 Sean Aylmer: into their properties. Where are we up to in that respect? 50 00:02:46,230 --> 00:02:48,810 Carola Jonas: Yeah, so we've seen a lot of growth over the 51 00:02:48,810 --> 00:02:52,230 Carola Jonas: last couple of years. I think people have understood that 52 00:02:52,230 --> 00:02:55,770 Carola Jonas: in order to bring the EVs, the cars themselves in, 53 00:02:55,770 --> 00:02:58,680 Carola Jonas: we need to get that infrastructure in place first, because 54 00:02:58,889 --> 00:03:00,690 Carola Jonas: no one wants to buy an electric car if you 55 00:03:00,690 --> 00:03:04,320 Carola Jonas: can't charge it. And so a lot of property companies, 56 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:10,710 Carola Jonas: shopping centers, concerts have already started installing charging infrastructure. We're 57 00:03:10,710 --> 00:03:14,580 Carola Jonas: also seeing a lot of corporate fleets actually transitioning their 58 00:03:15,060 --> 00:03:19,709 Carola Jonas: cars to EV and installing charging infrastructure in their own company buildings. 59 00:03:20,370 --> 00:03:22,740 Sean Aylmer: Carola, I'm going to ask a really dumb question, but 60 00:03:23,910 --> 00:03:25,740 Sean Aylmer: the benefit of my job is that I can ask 61 00:03:25,740 --> 00:03:30,090 Sean Aylmer: anything I want. If I had bought an EV, how 62 00:03:30,090 --> 00:03:32,579 Sean Aylmer: do I charge it? Can I charge it at home? 63 00:03:33,090 --> 00:03:35,370 Sean Aylmer: That's the first question. What do I need to charge 64 00:03:35,370 --> 00:03:38,190 Sean Aylmer: it at home? Otherwise, is it like going to the 65 00:03:38,190 --> 00:03:42,450 Sean Aylmer: local department store, or the local mall, or the local 66 00:03:42,450 --> 00:03:46,860 Sean Aylmer: charging station and using an app like yours to charge it? 67 00:03:47,850 --> 00:03:52,170 Carola Jonas: Yeah, so in theory, you can charge an EV at home from 68 00:03:52,170 --> 00:03:54,990 Carola Jonas: a normal hour socket. You can just plug it into 69 00:03:54,990 --> 00:03:59,220 Carola Jonas: a 10 amps power supply. That is very, very, very 70 00:03:59,220 --> 00:04:03,300 Carola Jonas: slow charging and only really suitable if you have the 71 00:04:03,300 --> 00:04:06,120 Carola Jonas: whole night or even longer. Or if you have a 72 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:09,360 Carola Jonas: very small battery. If you have a larger battery, then 73 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:13,440 Carola Jonas: you're probably more likely to install a dedicated charging station 74 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:16,560 Carola Jonas: in your garage, if that is possible. If you have on- 75 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:19,529 Carola Jonas: street parking and can't charge at home, then you would 76 00:04:19,529 --> 00:04:23,669 Carola Jonas: certainly look for faster charging solutions, as you said, local 77 00:04:23,670 --> 00:04:28,890 Carola Jonas: shopping center, or there's also petrol stations now installing charging 78 00:04:28,890 --> 00:04:32,610 Carola Jonas: stations on their forecourts. There'd be a variety of different 79 00:04:32,820 --> 00:04:35,580 Carola Jonas: locations. I think the most important thing is we are 80 00:04:35,580 --> 00:04:38,970 Carola Jonas: using EVs like we use our mobile phones, so we 81 00:04:38,970 --> 00:04:40,919 Carola Jonas: just plug it in when we see the battery is 82 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:43,140 Carola Jonas: going a little lower, we're giving it the top- up. 83 00:04:43,470 --> 00:04:45,870 Carola Jonas: And so wherever your car is parked during the day, 84 00:04:45,870 --> 00:04:48,270 Carola Jonas: that's where I ideally want to charge it too. 85 00:04:49,050 --> 00:04:51,150 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Carola, we'll be back in a minute. 86 00:04:57,420 --> 00:05:01,080 Sean Aylmer: My guest this morning is Carola Jonas, founder and CEO 87 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:05,340 Sean Aylmer: of Everty. Okay. So are we seeing greenfield sites, be they 88 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:10,140 Sean Aylmer: residential or commercial, increasingly introducing charging stations anyway? 89 00:05:10,589 --> 00:05:14,279 Carola Jonas: Yes, absolutely. There's a lot happening in the residential market, 90 00:05:14,580 --> 00:05:18,180 Carola Jonas: and the policy settings are going to change next year 91 00:05:18,180 --> 00:05:22,110 Carola Jonas: that for anything that's being built anew and a new 92 00:05:22,110 --> 00:05:26,220 Carola Jonas: construction needs to be a 100% EV ready or that's at 93 00:05:26,220 --> 00:05:29,190 Carola Jonas: least the target they're going for. And that means that 94 00:05:29,190 --> 00:05:31,560 Carola Jonas: at least all the cabling in the car parks need 95 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:34,320 Carola Jonas: to be provided so that when the EVs are coming, 96 00:05:34,710 --> 00:05:37,320 Carola Jonas: we can easily pop a charging station in and have 97 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:38,040 Carola Jonas: it operational. 98 00:05:38,820 --> 00:05:43,229 Sean Aylmer: You talked about fleets earlier on. Are big business supporting 99 00:05:43,230 --> 00:05:44,339 Sean Aylmer: the shift to EVs? 100 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:48,480 Carola Jonas: Yes. A lot of big businesses, first of all have 101 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:52,440 Carola Jonas: sustainability targets where they want to have a 100% renewable 102 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:57,300 Carola Jonas: energy or net zero emissions by a certain date. And 103 00:05:57,300 --> 00:06:00,599 Carola Jonas: we see a lot of leading companies now transitioning their 104 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:04,170 Carola Jonas: vehicles over to Evs, because if you look at the transport 105 00:06:04,170 --> 00:06:08,640 Carola Jonas: sector in general, that's 20% of Australia's emissions and can 106 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:12,930 Carola Jonas: easily be avoided by the use of EVs if we obviously 107 00:06:12,930 --> 00:06:16,950 Carola Jonas: also clean up our power supply and have more renewable energy. 108 00:06:17,460 --> 00:06:20,070 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So one of your clients is Transport New South 109 00:06:20,070 --> 00:06:23,790 Sean Aylmer: Wales, for example, a government client in New South Wales. 110 00:06:24,180 --> 00:06:26,250 Sean Aylmer: What do you do for them? I'm not asking to 111 00:06:26,250 --> 00:06:28,320 Sean Aylmer: tell us things you shouldn't tell us, but I'm trying 112 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:31,320 Sean Aylmer: to get a feel for how Everty works with its clients. 113 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:36,659 Carola Jonas: Yeah, absolutely. So for them, we supplied and installed the charging stations, and 114 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:40,140 Carola Jonas: they're using it on the Everty platform which allows them 115 00:06:40,140 --> 00:06:44,099 Carola Jonas: to monitor whether the charges are working okay. We also 116 00:06:44,100 --> 00:06:46,529 Carola Jonas: do load management. If you have a lot of cars 117 00:06:46,529 --> 00:06:49,440 Carola Jonas: charging at the same time, you might have to be 118 00:06:49,589 --> 00:06:52,620 Carola Jonas: mindful of the electricity supply and how much is used 119 00:06:52,620 --> 00:06:56,130 Carola Jonas: by a building. So it's a full turnkey solution that 120 00:06:56,130 --> 00:06:57,120 Carola Jonas: we've provided to them. 121 00:06:58,470 --> 00:07:02,489 Sean Aylmer: When you say you install the charging stations, someone else 122 00:07:02,490 --> 00:07:06,630 Sean Aylmer: manufactures the charging stations though, and you are installing their stations, is 123 00:07:06,630 --> 00:07:07,049 Sean Aylmer: that right? 124 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:09,810 Carola Jonas: Yeah, correct. So we are hardware agnostic. We work with 125 00:07:09,810 --> 00:07:12,510 Carola Jonas: all of the big brands that you would normally know in 126 00:07:12,510 --> 00:07:17,460 Carola Jonas: the market, like AB, Siemens, Schneider, Delta, et cetera. We 127 00:07:17,790 --> 00:07:22,650 Carola Jonas: basically procure the charging stations from these international suppliers and 128 00:07:22,650 --> 00:07:25,860 Carola Jonas: then onsell them to our customers and have an electrician 129 00:07:25,860 --> 00:07:29,040 Carola Jonas: install them, and get them set up for the use. 130 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:32,160 Sean Aylmer: So how does the economics work? Can you actually help 131 00:07:32,220 --> 00:07:35,760 Sean Aylmer: whoever is providing the EV make money from it because 132 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:38,040 Sean Aylmer: it's not necessarily just the person living in a building? 133 00:07:38,250 --> 00:07:40,920 Sean Aylmer: Certainly in the case of big malls and things like 134 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:44,670 Sean Aylmer: that, can you help them make money by installing charging stations? 135 00:07:45,180 --> 00:07:49,560 Carola Jonas: Yes, absolutely. We have customers that offer their charging stations 136 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:51,810 Carola Jonas: to the public and that could either be in public 137 00:07:51,810 --> 00:07:56,760 Carola Jonas: car parks or in concert locations, in tourist areas. And 138 00:07:56,760 --> 00:07:59,730 Carola Jonas: basically what happens there is that an EV driver uses 139 00:07:59,730 --> 00:08:02,850 Carola Jonas: the Everty app to start and stop a charger. And then 140 00:08:02,850 --> 00:08:05,130 Carola Jonas: at the end of the charging session, we know how 141 00:08:05,130 --> 00:08:08,250 Carola Jonas: much electricity was supplied to the car, and then we 142 00:08:08,250 --> 00:08:11,040 Carola Jonas: build the credit card off that EV driver. So we 143 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:14,760 Carola Jonas: are basically collecting the payment from the EV drivers and 144 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:17,640 Carola Jonas: then pay that revenue out to whoever owns and operates 145 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:18,570 Carola Jonas: the charging station. 146 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:24,540 Sean Aylmer: It's ingenious. Everty's been going for five or six years, 147 00:08:24,540 --> 00:08:25,590 Sean Aylmer: is that right? Six years I think. 2016, 148 00:08:25,590 --> 00:08:30,210 Carola Jonas: Yeah. Yeah. We've been going for five years. So incorporated 149 00:08:30,210 --> 00:08:34,170 Carola Jonas: in 2017 where there was very few cars and a 150 00:08:34,170 --> 00:08:38,429 Carola Jonas: few charging stations as well. And that was exactly the 151 00:08:38,429 --> 00:08:41,969 Carola Jonas: problem we wanted to solve. I was previously working in 152 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:46,170 Carola Jonas: solar, and batteries, and inverters, and it just puzzled me 153 00:08:46,170 --> 00:08:50,310 Carola Jonas: that Australia has the highest rooftop solar uptake per capita, 154 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:53,609 Carola Jonas: but we didn't have any EVs. And obviously back then 155 00:08:53,850 --> 00:08:57,660 Carola Jonas: access to charging and infrastructure was one of the biggest problems. 156 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:00,360 Carola Jonas: We said we've got to do something about that. 157 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:03,360 Sean Aylmer: So how far away are we from solving it? 158 00:09:04,740 --> 00:09:07,949 Carola Jonas: Oh, we're still far away. It's a long way to 159 00:09:07,950 --> 00:09:12,180 Carola Jonas: go because this kind of infrastructure is not cheap, and 160 00:09:12,510 --> 00:09:14,430 Carola Jonas: we need a lot of it. If we think of 161 00:09:14,670 --> 00:09:19,530 Carola Jonas: having potentially 15 million EVs in Australia by 2030 or 162 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:22,949 Carola Jonas: 2040, we would probably want to see at least three 163 00:09:22,950 --> 00:09:25,470 Carola Jonas: to five million charging stations to support that. 164 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:29,730 Sean Aylmer: Wow. Is the government doing enough? They recently made some changes 165 00:09:29,730 --> 00:09:34,500 Sean Aylmer: like removing fringe benefits tax on EV purchases, but everything 166 00:09:34,500 --> 00:09:37,380 Sean Aylmer: is a (inaudible) . So no criticism there, but do 167 00:09:37,380 --> 00:09:39,960 Sean Aylmer: we need a lot more government money, state and federal 168 00:09:40,230 --> 00:09:43,290 Sean Aylmer: for it to roll out enough of these EV charging stations? 169 00:09:43,980 --> 00:09:47,970 Carola Jonas: Well, governments can always do more. But looking at the 170 00:09:47,970 --> 00:09:51,300 Carola Jonas: current government, since we had a change, the current government 171 00:09:51,300 --> 00:09:54,059 Carola Jonas: in the last five months has probably done more than 172 00:09:54,059 --> 00:09:57,329 Carola Jonas: the previous government in the last five years. I'm very 173 00:09:57,330 --> 00:10:00,780 Carola Jonas: happy with what they're doing. But there's a few key 174 00:10:00,780 --> 00:10:04,260 Carola Jonas: policies that we really need to set in Australia, and 175 00:10:04,260 --> 00:10:08,400 Carola Jonas: one of them is lowering our emissions standards, or not 176 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:11,610 Carola Jonas: lowering the standards, but making sure that we get lower 177 00:10:11,610 --> 00:10:15,059 Carola Jonas: emission cars into the country. Because what happens in Europe 178 00:10:15,059 --> 00:10:18,540 Carola Jonas: is that the car manufacturers are being penalized and have 179 00:10:18,540 --> 00:10:22,290 Carola Jonas: to pay if they introduce cars that have a high 180 00:10:22,350 --> 00:10:25,979 Carola Jonas: CO2 emission and therefore they need to offset that with 181 00:10:26,220 --> 00:10:29,040 Carola Jonas: low emission cars, we don't have that. So we are basically 182 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:32,069 Carola Jonas: telling the world, you can bring our dirty cars to 183 00:10:32,070 --> 00:10:35,309 Carola Jonas: Australia and we will not penalize you for that, and you 184 00:10:35,309 --> 00:10:38,400 Carola Jonas: don't have to do anything to make up for dumping 185 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:41,970 Carola Jonas: your dirty cars on Australian shores. So that's certainly something 186 00:10:41,970 --> 00:10:43,530 Carola Jonas: we need to address asap. 187 00:10:43,890 --> 00:10:44,760 Sean Aylmer: And is that what's happening? 188 00:10:45,690 --> 00:10:49,170 Carola Jonas: Yes. The industry is working with the government on consultation, 189 00:10:49,170 --> 00:10:52,589 Carola Jonas: so the government was planning to roll out a national 190 00:10:52,830 --> 00:10:56,309 Carola Jonas: EV strategy. That consultation has closed and now they're going 191 00:10:56,309 --> 00:10:59,429 Carola Jonas: through, I think they had 500 submissions. So they have 192 00:10:59,429 --> 00:11:01,290 Carola Jonas: a lot of work to do to go through all 193 00:11:01,290 --> 00:11:03,390 Carola Jonas: that industry feedback, but they're working on it. 194 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:06,179 Sean Aylmer: Carola, thank you very much for talking to Fear and Greed. 195 00:11:06,570 --> 00:11:07,170 Carola Jonas: Thank you. 196 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:10,950 Sean Aylmer: That was Carola Jonas, founder and CEO of Everty. This 197 00:11:10,950 --> 00:11:13,170 Sean Aylmer: is the Fear and Greed Daily interview. Join us every 198 00:11:13,170 --> 00:11:15,360 Sean Aylmer: morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed, Australia's 199 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:18,989 Sean Aylmer: most popular business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer, enjoy your day.