WEBVTT - #133 Josh Szeps: The Funniest Intellectual Down Under 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.320 Hi, my Boris, and this is straight talk. When they 0:00:02.400 --> 0:00:05.160 write the book about Cancel Culture, there will be a 0:00:05.240 --> 0:00:13.680 page for this moment, which was Josh's welcome to Everything 0:00:13.720 --> 0:00:18.520 is messy. I think the only solution is conversations. To 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:20.920 be on the right side of history at the moment, 0:00:21.200 --> 0:00:23.200 you have to adhere to a certain set of social 0:00:23.360 --> 0:00:27.640 justice dogmas or orthodoxies, and if you're stray from those, 0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:33.600 you get whacked. You're always asking the tricky questions. Mark, 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:36.959 I mean, something's happening to our brains and the way 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:40.560 that they're being hijacked that is making it increasingly difficult 0:00:40.600 --> 0:00:44.600 to have contrarian conversations. I honestly, I think that's the 0:00:44.640 --> 0:00:45.960 only way we're going to solve the problems of the 0:00:45.960 --> 0:00:47.080 twenty first century. Mark. 0:00:48.240 --> 0:00:51.360 You have been on Joe Rogan Show six or seven times, 0:00:51.400 --> 0:00:52.320 I can't remember now. 0:00:52.200 --> 0:00:53.760 Seven, don't short something? 0:00:54.200 --> 0:00:59.400 What the fuck's going on there? Josh Sheps, welcome to 0:00:59.440 --> 0:01:02.680 straight Talk for as such. And it's very nice to 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:04.760 meet you, and actually a nice to meet you in person. 0:01:04.760 --> 0:01:07.000 But more importantly, I need. 0:01:06.840 --> 0:01:09.760 To tell you that I used to really love listening 0:01:09.760 --> 0:01:12.280 to you when you were relieving others in the morning and. 0:01:12.959 --> 0:01:16.399 Relieving others in the morning. When I was jerking off 0:01:16.440 --> 0:01:20.920 other gentlemen didn't morning six am, my alarm would go off. 0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:23.600 I'd go down to the bar, the local public restrooms 0:01:23.640 --> 0:01:27.520 and relieve a couple of frustrated thanks me or a locum. 0:01:28.360 --> 0:01:30.160 I was well. I mean, I did the breakfast show 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:32.360 on ABC Radio Sydnet he for and I so listened 0:01:32.360 --> 0:01:33.399 to it a number of years, and. 0:01:33.360 --> 0:01:36.600 I see myself the grace respect at the ABC. Please 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:40.920 don't get shitty with me. This guy's bloody smart. He's 0:01:41.080 --> 0:01:43.479 brought a bit of intellect to the show. 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:44.319 In other words, it. 0:01:44.280 --> 0:01:48.160 Wasn't like like, literally, you know what I'm talking about 0:01:48.160 --> 0:01:50.000 the headlines or whatever. You actually put a bit of 0:01:50.000 --> 0:01:51.600 look like you're putting some research into Look like you're 0:01:51.600 --> 0:01:52.680 putting your own research into it. 0:01:52.680 --> 0:01:55.680 To me, Yeah, yeah, is okay, absolutely. I mean, I 0:01:55.760 --> 0:01:57.720 just I want to do the things that interest me, 0:01:57.840 --> 0:02:00.000 and I think that if you're actually interested in something, 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:02.240 and then other people will follow you because your intellectual 0:02:02.280 --> 0:02:05.000 curiosity will carry them along. And it's way. There's nothing 0:02:05.000 --> 0:02:07.640 more delightful than turning on something that you expect to 0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:10.160 be one thing and then it's just slightly different or 0:02:10.160 --> 0:02:12.840 it's slightly skewing. I never thought about that way, or 0:02:12.840 --> 0:02:15.120 I never didn't know about about that, So it's now 0:02:15.120 --> 0:02:17.320 I've never been the type of person who joins an 0:02:17.440 --> 0:02:21.640 organization or an institution in order to just follow rules 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:23.960 and do things exactly the way that I'm told to, 0:02:24.080 --> 0:02:28.160 because I think that's just a bit stale. It is 0:02:28.200 --> 0:02:30.120 because it's boring for you, boring for them, not boring 0:02:30.120 --> 0:02:32.040 for that. I mean, yes, of course is boring for me. 0:02:32.240 --> 0:02:34.480 I mean, there's there's some self interest in pursuing my 0:02:34.520 --> 0:02:36.800 own interests, but I think it's boring for the audience. 0:02:37.080 --> 0:02:39.000 I think I think there's and I think something that's 0:02:39.040 --> 0:02:40.600 happening in the media at the moment we can get 0:02:40.600 --> 0:02:44.680 to this is that a lot of stuff sounds basically 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:47.160 the same with the same kinds of opinions that you 0:02:47.240 --> 0:02:50.640 know are the correct opinions to have about sensitive issues. 0:02:50.680 --> 0:02:54.320 So there's a whole whole suite of topics that if 0:02:54.360 --> 0:02:57.800 you turn on the ABC or you turn on Sky 0:02:57.880 --> 0:02:59.880 News after Dark or Fox News or something like that, 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:02.400 pretty confident you could jot on the back of a 0:03:02.480 --> 0:03:05.799 napkin before anyone starts talking what they're going to sound 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:10.080 like when they're talking about climate change or transgender athletes 0:03:10.200 --> 0:03:14.200 or you know, gay pride or Marti Gras or women's 0:03:14.480 --> 0:03:17.320 quality or Black Lives Matter or whatever it might be. 0:03:17.680 --> 0:03:20.120 And I'm just more interested in following my own curiosity 0:03:20.160 --> 0:03:22.240 and trying to figure out what's true and paying no 0:03:22.360 --> 0:03:24.200 heed to the way that you're supposed to talk about things. 0:03:24.200 --> 0:03:28.079 And that doesn't always mesh perfectly into an institution, you know, 0:03:28.120 --> 0:03:30.040 an institutional environment. It didn't for me. 0:03:30.360 --> 0:03:33.120 Well, let's talk about that then, since you've gone to 0:03:33.160 --> 0:03:37.960 that territory I listened to because my mum listened to 0:03:38.000 --> 0:03:41.800 the ABC and my mother had the abacy on all day, 0:03:42.640 --> 0:03:44.840 and I can go back to the ABC. 0:03:45.440 --> 0:03:51.720 What's Adam's saying, the mathematician Adam Spencer, Adam sincer, great guy. 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:57.600 And it's sort of to me that the ABC stopp 0:03:57.600 --> 0:03:59.640 being the ABC went sort of around about when he left. 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:08.400 To me, it changed, well, it became more the same. 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:14.520 Issues were being talked about, which were outside the norm. 0:04:15.080 --> 0:04:18.719 There issues you just mentioned, some general quality, you know, 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:24.240 no Palestine Israel, you know, and taking a position that 0:04:24.320 --> 0:04:25.919 they're not they're not in the middle, they're taking a 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:28.200 position so they're not definitely one, they're definitely not reporting 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:32.520 the news as a news as a as as as 0:04:33.480 --> 0:04:37.159 unbiased news. There's a bias, which is fine. I mean 0:04:37.200 --> 0:04:39.960 there's a bias everywhere, but they were expressing their bias 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:44.360 in the news prior to that, around the Adam Spencer 0:04:44.440 --> 0:04:47.040 period and way beyond before that. 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:50.960 It was very down the middle. To me. 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:56.280 It was very not conservative base, but straightforward news about 0:04:56.320 --> 0:04:58.479 what's what's actually happened, without a view, without an opinion. 0:04:58.520 --> 0:05:02.839 There's no opinion associated with more about facts. And I 0:05:02.880 --> 0:05:07.200 think today, like you just said, I pretty much know 0:05:07.240 --> 0:05:08.760 what I'm going to get, just like when I listen to. 0:05:10.839 --> 0:05:11.839 Sky News at. 0:05:13.360 --> 0:05:15.520 Nine PM, I know exactly where I'm going to get 0:05:15.520 --> 0:05:18.039 it out of them too, so much so Josh that 0:05:18.120 --> 0:05:20.080 what I do is I still have the ABC in 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:21.520 the morning and I get my. 0:05:24.400 --> 0:05:25.600 Full belly of. 0:05:27.560 --> 0:05:33.720 What would ordinarily be associated with the left and other 0:05:33.800 --> 0:05:36.640 groups that sort of fit within the left, Greens, et cetera. 0:05:36.760 --> 0:05:38.440 I get my full belly of that, and then in 0:05:38.480 --> 0:05:40.960 the night I put on Sky News so I can 0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:42.040 get my full belly. 0:05:41.760 --> 0:05:45.200 Of the right. You can go to bed sufficiently outraged 0:05:45.279 --> 0:05:45.600 at the. 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:47.280 World, and then I can know it well, just sort 0:05:47.320 --> 0:05:50.599 of sometimes I am. But mostly what I do is 0:05:50.960 --> 0:05:54.800 I'm balanced, and I feel as though, well the news world, 0:05:55.040 --> 0:05:57.880 I justify one against the other. They're both sort of 0:05:58.200 --> 0:06:01.400 so far out on the edge of the spectrum that 0:06:01.440 --> 0:06:03.599 there's not that much in the middle anymore. Because I 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:05.159 get that stuff in the middle. I get that fed 0:06:05.200 --> 0:06:09.880 to me by Instagram, Facebook, all the other mediums, and 0:06:09.920 --> 0:06:12.359 I know the news before it before its on. 0:06:12.600 --> 0:06:14.280 Of course, yeah, I mean, as we all do. I mean, 0:06:14.360 --> 0:06:17.360 it's immensely frustrating to me to hear you say that 0:06:17.040 --> 0:06:19.640 that you know, you know what you're going to get 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:21.960 from both sides, and therefore you have to put up 0:06:22.000 --> 0:06:25.640 with this level of kind of tacit unconscious bias that's 0:06:25.680 --> 0:06:28.640 coming from places that you ought to be able to trust, 0:06:29.160 --> 0:06:31.360 because I mean, what I'm trying to do in uncomfortable 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:34.400 conversations and what I know you do every day is 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:40.279 basically wrestle with big issues in ways that disregard the 0:06:40.360 --> 0:06:44.920 trip wires and the landmines and allow myself the punishment 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:48.000 and the punishment I don't care about the punishment obviously, 0:06:49.400 --> 0:06:51.760 given that I ended up being sort of you know, 0:06:52.040 --> 0:06:57.920 my radio show ended up falling apart that I can't 0:06:58.360 --> 0:07:02.080 stomach the idea that we're to give away our ability 0:07:02.080 --> 0:07:05.920 to have complicated, uncomfortable conversations about the most important problems 0:07:05.960 --> 0:07:09.000 that we face in the twenty first century to people 0:07:09.080 --> 0:07:11.240 who have their thumb on the scale one way or another, 0:07:11.320 --> 0:07:13.560 and then we're going to individually try to grope our 0:07:13.600 --> 0:07:16.480 way towards whatever is true or rational or reasonable on 0:07:16.520 --> 0:07:18.760 the base of the on the basis of these two 0:07:19.920 --> 0:07:22.800 sort of biased interpretations that are coming to us through 0:07:22.840 --> 0:07:25.880 their own prisms, Like why not just do away with 0:07:25.920 --> 0:07:28.520 the prisms altogether and just get straight to the point 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:31.320 and talk to each other like we're grown ups, and say, 0:07:31.360 --> 0:07:33.640 if I say something that comes across the wrong way 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:36.280 or that defends you, tell me why it's wrong, tell 0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:38.320 me what's wrong about it, tell me where I've erd. 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:41.560 Don't play a game of gotcha, don't try to get 0:07:41.560 --> 0:07:44.080 me fired because I said the wrong thing. There's so 0:07:44.240 --> 0:07:48.280 much timidity, there's so much caution, there's so much risk 0:07:48.320 --> 0:07:51.280 aversion in the media at the moment that I think, 0:07:51.840 --> 0:07:53.960 like a lot of the bias is not intentional bias. 0:07:54.000 --> 0:07:56.680 It's just it's coming from the soup that we swim in, 0:07:56.800 --> 0:07:59.760 you know, there's a part of this is to do 0:07:59.800 --> 0:08:04.040 with the welcome reaction to what had previously been a 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:08.200 fairly straight, white male profession of journalism. Right. So, you know, 0:08:08.320 --> 0:08:10.080 over the past ten or twenty years, there's been a 0:08:10.080 --> 0:08:12.200 push for more diversity. I think that's a great thing. 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:14.760 I think more people of color and more women should 0:08:14.760 --> 0:08:19.000 be in newsrooms. At the same time, they have to 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:24.200 adhere to the original founding principles of institutional journalism, which 0:08:24.240 --> 0:08:27.720 is objectivity. You know, you can't come in saying I'm 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:29.760 going to tell my own story, or like, as an 0:08:29.840 --> 0:08:32.160 Arab woman, I'm going to focus on Gaza in this 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:34.960 particular way. No, no, no, as an Arab woman, you're 0:08:34.960 --> 0:08:36.800 going to be a bloody journalist and you're going to 0:08:36.880 --> 0:08:39.400 do your job as a journalist. That's what a newsroom 0:08:39.480 --> 0:08:41.520 is about. You're not going to come in and say, 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:43.560 you know, say, well, you know you have to see 0:08:43.559 --> 0:08:46.960 things from my perspective. No, we're not going for perspectives. Yes, 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:49.160 they'll always be biased. Yes, we always bring things to 0:08:49.200 --> 0:08:52.719 the table. No one has a position in heaven sit 0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:55.960 standing on the clouds looking at everything objectively. That's impossible. 0:08:56.040 --> 0:08:58.360 But you can use that as an aspiration. You can 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:01.160 rely on facts, you can say I'm not going to 0:09:01.640 --> 0:09:04.920 allow my own background to influence this. And I think 0:09:04.920 --> 0:09:08.480 there's a fundamental tension between the desire for objectivity on 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:12.720 the one hand, and this newer social justice desire to 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:16.280 tell broader truths with a capital T that take down 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:20.480 the man and that achieve some social justice in a point. 0:09:20.600 --> 0:09:22.600 And I think that's what people are smelling at the moment, 0:09:22.600 --> 0:09:25.079 that everything seems to be loaded, at least in the 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:28.200 left wing press, with a social justice point instead of 0:09:28.200 --> 0:09:30.400 just giving people the facts. And I think we're just 0:09:30.440 --> 0:09:34.240 going to have to go through an adjustment period where 0:09:34.400 --> 0:09:37.280 newsrooms get back to being about the facts and then 0:09:37.440 --> 0:09:40.280 on the content side. So content is like the fancy 0:09:40.280 --> 0:09:43.200 broadcasting term for anything that's not journalism, right. So, I 0:09:43.200 --> 0:09:45.880 mean my show on the ABC was not a news show. 0:09:46.400 --> 0:09:49.880 It was on ABC Radio Sydney. It was talkback. We'd 0:09:49.880 --> 0:09:53.040 sometimes talk to chefs about cooking, we'd sometimes you know, 0:09:53.240 --> 0:09:56.400 you talk about everything, anything and everything, And in that sphere, 0:09:56.440 --> 0:10:00.400 I actually think there should be more tolerance of and 0:10:00.480 --> 0:10:04.160 respect for different opinions and having the opinion of the 0:10:04.160 --> 0:10:06.680 presenter or the hosts come through. I don't think I 0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:09.400 should be required to be as objective as the person 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:12.240 who's delivering the seven pm news if I'm hosting a 0:10:12.240 --> 0:10:16.160 three hour long daily talkback radio show. So I think 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:18.600 at the moment, everything's in flux. People don't know where 0:10:18.600 --> 0:10:21.640 they stand. Journalists feel like they're allowed to bring their 0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:24.640 whole selves to work and tell their own stories in 0:10:24.679 --> 0:10:28.400 ways that undermine objectivity, but commentators at the same time 0:10:28.800 --> 0:10:31.840 feel impeded from going out on a limb and talking 0:10:31.880 --> 0:10:35.040 about things in a bullshit free manner because they're afraid 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:36.880 that they're going to trigger a tripwire and all the 0:10:36.880 --> 0:10:38.720 hell's going to break loose because they said the wrong 0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:40.959 thing and they offended the social justice dogmas that they're 0:10:41.000 --> 0:10:44.079 supposed to adhere to. But how did that happen? How 0:10:44.080 --> 0:10:45.440 did I don't know? 0:10:45.800 --> 0:10:47.520 I'm not a You may well be closer to be 0:10:47.600 --> 0:10:50.280 an ABC story in yourself than I am. But what 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:56.120 happened at the ABC, for example, that created the current outcome? 0:10:56.400 --> 0:10:59.880 And I just want to say this as well, Equally, 0:11:02.559 --> 0:11:07.600 Sky News at a certain time of night has felt 0:11:07.600 --> 0:11:10.800 the need to defend the other side, the other argument, 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:14.880 and there they are as they prosecute equally as hard, 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:16.679 but are on the opposite side of the fence. 0:11:16.520 --> 0:11:18.640 Oh yeah, or harder. I mean, sky News has less 0:11:18.640 --> 0:11:20.719 fidelity to I don't want this to seem like I'm 0:11:20.760 --> 0:11:22.439 ragging on the ABC, because I actually think that the 0:11:22.920 --> 0:11:26.480 public broadcaster is in a pickle. Is a national treasure 0:11:26.800 --> 0:11:29.360 and needs to be sort of protected and defended. And 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:32.240 one of the reasons why it is currently so cowed, 0:11:32.400 --> 0:11:36.040 I think, and so fearful and so cautious is because 0:11:36.120 --> 0:11:40.920 it's under constant attack from disingenuous conservative politicians and Sky 0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:43.760 News figures who are always on about how biased the 0:11:43.800 --> 0:11:47.560 ABC is. Right, there has to be some space for 0:11:47.600 --> 0:11:49.000 the ABC to be able to stand up and have 0:11:49.040 --> 0:11:51.880 a backbone and go no, no, no, like just quit it. 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:55.320 The ABC still does great investigative journalism. It still has 0:11:55.400 --> 0:11:59.840 great journalists who are working there. I think that the 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:02.800 how did it get here is really complicated and has 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:06.280 a lot to do with changing viewing patterns, changing listening patterns. 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:11.439 The democratization of the media, social media, YouTube like that 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:15.280 stuff has meant that people no longer are tethered to 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:17.240 a public broadcast of the way that they might have 0:12:17.320 --> 0:12:20.080 been even just ten years ago, let alone thirty years ago. 0:12:20.520 --> 0:12:22.080 And so now that you can get so much of 0:12:22.080 --> 0:12:25.520 your information from Joe Rogan or Peter Attire or whoever 0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:28.120 it might be, or a Josh Steps or Mark Burris, 0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:33.679 it's there's just more choice. And so then the airBC goes, well, 0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:35.920 what is the purpose of the ABC, And the purpose 0:12:35.920 --> 0:12:40.000 of the ABC really fundamentally should be to create a 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:43.120 town square in which everybody feels like they're being given 0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:45.480 a fair shake, in which everybody feels like their voice 0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:48.120 is being heard, in which the most important issues of 0:12:48.160 --> 0:12:50.760 the day can be wrestled with without fear or favor. 0:12:51.280 --> 0:12:54.680 But that's going to piss people off by definition, because 0:12:54.679 --> 0:12:56.720 you're gonna have a whole bunch of voices. If you're 0:12:56.760 --> 0:12:59.920 actually doing that, then you wouldn't just be in lockstep 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:03.360 with I don't know, just to pick an example of 0:13:03.360 --> 0:13:06.600 one fight that I got into with ABC management with 0:13:06.800 --> 0:13:09.360 Marti Gras for example, you know, I was in a 0:13:09.400 --> 0:13:11.800 position where I'm an openly gay guy. I'm married to 0:13:11.840 --> 0:13:14.760 a guy I was I wrote an ophead for the 0:13:14.800 --> 0:13:17.880 Sydney Morning Herald during World Pride, which was a big 0:13:18.080 --> 0:13:21.880 gay pride event last year. During Mardi Gras, just sort 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:26.080 of I was just sort of saying, like, will there 0:13:26.120 --> 0:13:28.120 ever come a point at which we can turn the 0:13:28.200 --> 0:13:31.000 volume down instead of turning a volume up on our 0:13:31.080 --> 0:13:39.120 identitarian difference, like when it's not that important, Like how 0:13:39.200 --> 0:13:42.600 much equality will we have to get before we don't 0:13:42.640 --> 0:13:46.000 have to? You know, wear aarseless chaps and sit astride 0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:49.080 a giant inflatable penis on Oxford Street, you know, smothered 0:13:49.080 --> 0:13:51.240 in baby oil with waxed chests. You know, does there 0:13:51.280 --> 0:13:54.320 ever come a point at which we're just like, what 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:57.520 I have achieved I mean through no thanks to me, 0:13:57.760 --> 0:14:00.520 but through the through giving thanks to the the early 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:03.559 gay rights pioneers, the gay activists of the stonewaller of 0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:07.360 the sixties and seventies, what I've achieved is that everything 0:14:07.400 --> 0:14:09.520 they dreamed of, which is I've got a boring life. 0:14:09.559 --> 0:14:11.880 It's unremarkable, you know what I mean. Like, you know, 0:14:12.000 --> 0:14:13.720 I say, I tell someone I'm gay and I'm married 0:14:13.760 --> 0:14:16.840 to a guy, and they're like, okay, whatever. I don't 0:14:17.880 --> 0:14:20.600 really don't beat me up, you know. I mean, yes, 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:24.080 it's very privileged. I'm middle class, I'm white. Whatever. I'm 0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:25.720 sure it's different if you're you know, if you're growing 0:14:25.800 --> 0:14:28.400 up in a in a Muslim Australian household in the 0:14:28.440 --> 0:14:31.160 southwest of Sydney. But for me, we've achieved everything that 0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:34.000 we wanted to achieve. So my article was basically just saying, like, 0:14:35.080 --> 0:14:36.760 you know, will therever come a point at which we 0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:44.800 actually achieve greater individual flourishing, greater sexual fulfillment by not 0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:48.000 really caring about labels and just falling in love with 0:14:48.040 --> 0:14:50.160 who you fall in love with, getting your rocks off 0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:51.640 with heavy, who you want, whoever you want to get 0:14:51.640 --> 0:14:58.080 your rocks off with, and if you know what I mean, 0:14:58.360 --> 0:15:03.520 it's not impro So I tried to publish. I tried 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:06.440 to publish this thing. And when you're a host, when 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:09.800 you have a contract at any organization, any media organization, 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:11.960 you have to get sign off from management for any 0:15:12.120 --> 0:15:15.240 external work to be approved. Where was it being published 0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:18.760 in the any Morning Herald right right? And this was 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:21.920 going to be the opinion piece on the weekend of 0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:24.520 gay Pride that would have thrown a face. It was 0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:28.640 not bed yet and you know, it went all the 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:30.840 way up the chain and management wouldn't allow it to 0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:36.240 be published because they said that hosts can't take positions 0:15:36.280 --> 0:15:41.080 on controversial cultural issues, right, which in principle is I 0:15:41.080 --> 0:15:43.640 suppose fair enough, it's a public broadcaster. You want me 0:15:43.640 --> 0:15:45.760 to see them impartial. You're not there to be an 0:15:45.760 --> 0:15:50.600 appearance of bias. The problem is, at the time the 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:55.040 ABC was the official broadcast partner of World Pride and 0:15:55.160 --> 0:15:59.920 of Mardi Gras. In the lobby, they're a gigantic rainbow flag. 0:16:00.760 --> 0:16:04.840 Every other presenter, every other host on the station, all 0:16:04.880 --> 0:16:06.760 of them not gay or not to the best of 0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:10.760 my knowledge, is singing the praises of how fabulous it is. 0:16:10.880 --> 0:16:13.400 You know, join us tonight for our live streaming coverage 0:16:13.440 --> 0:16:17.239 of the parade. Every second promo is about the parade, 0:16:17.440 --> 0:16:19.560 is about how fabulous it is. We've got all these 0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:25.040 guests of diverse genders and sexualities and whatever. The one 0:16:25.200 --> 0:16:29.080 gay host is not allowed to pipe up and go 0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:30.800 do we really need it? 0:16:31.760 --> 0:16:32.040 Right? 0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:36.600 So it struck me that it's not that hosts can't 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:40.720 have an opinion about culturally provocative issues. It's just that 0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:43.600 it has to be management's position. Yeah, it has to 0:16:43.600 --> 0:16:46.240 be the right position. You have to be on the 0:16:46.320 --> 0:16:49.240 right side of history. Why does Josh keep wanting to 0:16:50.240 --> 0:16:52.360 kick a hornet's nest? Why does he keep wanting to 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:54.960 upset the apple cart. Well, I don't know, because I'm 0:16:55.000 --> 0:16:58.240 interested in ideas, I'm interested in thinking things through. I'm 0:16:58.240 --> 0:17:01.440 interested in not being a conformer. So I'm interested in going, well, okay, 0:17:01.440 --> 0:17:05.399 why was Marti Grass so crucial? Will it ever not 0:17:05.520 --> 0:17:08.600 be crucial? At what point does that happen? Like, let's 0:17:08.640 --> 0:17:11.320 just talk about it. Let's just talk about it. But 0:17:11.359 --> 0:17:16.679 you can't talk about it because that transgresses an unspoken boundary, 0:17:16.720 --> 0:17:18.879 which is that to be on the right side of 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:21.040 history at the moment, you have to adhere to a 0:17:21.080 --> 0:17:25.000 certain set of social justice dogmas or orthodoxies, and if 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:28.120 you're stray from those, you get whacked. So who could 0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:28.440 But who? 0:17:28.560 --> 0:17:30.520 I mean, I'm always been curious about this, But who 0:17:30.600 --> 0:17:34.040 creates these social justice dogmas? Like I mean, I mean, 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:36.160 I often wonder myself, he is a group of people 0:17:36.200 --> 0:17:39.600 somewhere who are silent and we don't get to see them. 0:17:39.760 --> 0:17:42.879 Who actually, who actually are out there manipulating all these 0:17:42.920 --> 0:17:43.879 social justice dogmas? 0:17:43.920 --> 0:17:47.959 Are a blam et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, I mean, 0:17:48.200 --> 0:17:51.480 I think it's it's a largely white, largely middle class, 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:55.040 university educated elite of people who talk to each other 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:59.239 in certain ways and who probably don't fit into any 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:01.600 of the end to end the category. No, often they don't. 0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:03.639 Often they don't. You see, there's a lot in like 0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:06.960 the transgender Wars, which is probably the most toxic or 0:18:07.160 --> 0:18:09.600 sensitive vishue at the moment or even at the moment 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:10.920 right right now. 0:18:11.240 --> 0:18:15.439 But so, and what I mean, I'm curious as to 0:18:15.480 --> 0:18:16.600 your opinion on these things. 0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:17.840 There's no doubt you thought about. 0:18:17.600 --> 0:18:23.560 It is a guilt based yeah's feeling guilty, yes, And 0:18:23.640 --> 0:18:26.280 it's just some way of them washing their guilt. 0:18:26.720 --> 0:18:32.320 Yes, and therefore it is dangerous. Well, it may not 0:18:32.359 --> 0:18:34.960 be dangerous. It may just be dull, and it may 0:18:35.000 --> 0:18:37.640 be conformist, and it may be dull to. 0:18:37.600 --> 0:18:41.080 You, dangerous to somebody who will be influenced by it potentially. 0:18:41.520 --> 0:18:43.440 Oh, you mean they think that it's dangerous to step 0:18:43.480 --> 0:18:44.919 outside the or you think. 0:18:44.960 --> 0:18:46.920 No, I think it's dangerous with people who people who 0:18:47.000 --> 0:18:49.480 might be watching it and following and being influenced by it, 0:18:50.080 --> 0:18:53.120 unnecessarily influenced people being able to make up their own opinion. 0:18:53.160 --> 0:18:54.800 Some people can't make you to draw their own opinions. 0:18:54.880 --> 0:18:55.720 You know that, right. 0:18:55.960 --> 0:18:58.959 They're heavily influenced by what other people say. What institutions 0:18:58.960 --> 0:19:03.200 say what individuals say. But maybe that's just maybe that's just. 0:19:03.119 --> 0:19:04.919 How the world is today. 0:19:05.000 --> 0:19:06.439 By the way, we might not be able to change it, 0:19:06.480 --> 0:19:09.320 but I think it's dangerous to people who are influenced 0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:11.080 by it, and I. 0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:11.479 Worry about that. 0:19:12.440 --> 0:19:14.920 So, you know, what's an example of the palest palace 0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:18.720 the university. So I was listening to admittedly it was 0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:21.359 top but I was listening to tu jib this morning, 0:19:21.520 --> 0:19:24.800 and you know, my male mate bands on there was 0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:28.000 I was young, and he was talking to some correspondent 0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:29.880 they have in the US and the US was talking 0:19:29.920 --> 0:19:36.359 about the university protest, let's call it protests riots are 0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:39.040 going on some of the universities, particular in Ohio. And 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:41.280 he made the comment that isn't it funny that all 0:19:41.280 --> 0:19:44.960 the students from New York, Ohio and u c LA 0:19:45.040 --> 0:19:49.800 had exactly the same tents. They had somehow managed to garner, 0:19:50.440 --> 0:19:54.080 you know, hundreds of tents made by exactly the same company, 0:19:54.160 --> 0:19:57.040 look exactly the same, and these tents were all pitched 0:19:57.040 --> 0:19:59.040 on the lawns and it was all coordinated. 0:19:59.520 --> 0:20:05.919 And and the question then becomes, well do those how many. 0:20:05.760 --> 0:20:08.160 Of those people are actually students at the university, and 0:20:08.560 --> 0:20:10.280 it seems as though not a lot of them were 0:20:10.280 --> 0:20:14.399 not students, actual students of the university, and they're occupying territories, 0:20:14.440 --> 0:20:17.240 parts of the parts of the campuses, and they were 0:20:18.160 --> 0:20:22.439 protesting against Israel and in favor of Palestine, which is 0:20:22.440 --> 0:20:25.680 fair enough, that's an opinion, that's cool, But it looked 0:20:25.720 --> 0:20:29.359 like to me it was extraordinarily well organized. And the media, 0:20:29.720 --> 0:20:33.120 the way the media cover it is as if it's a. 0:20:33.119 --> 0:20:38.320 Truth, right or a spontaneously erupting shit's me yeah, yeah, I. 0:20:38.320 --> 0:20:40.200 Don't know what happened to syn the university this week, 0:20:40.560 --> 0:20:45.040 but maybe it's the same thing. But this is organized 0:20:45.960 --> 0:20:53.280 disruption to create a problem that looks as though it's 0:20:53.320 --> 0:20:58.080 students freethinking, like student campuses used to be free thinking, 0:20:58.760 --> 0:21:00.520 like you were saying, let's have a discuss about it. 0:21:00.520 --> 0:21:02.800 But students have all got together, they've actually got a 0:21:02.880 --> 0:21:05.240 view when an actual fact, that's not the case. It's 0:21:05.320 --> 0:21:08.119 well organized by others outside of the university, and then 0:21:08.160 --> 0:21:10.800 the media has gone reported it as it being the truth. 0:21:10.920 --> 0:21:12.919