Speaker 1: I'll get a team. Welcome to another installing the You Project.
Speaker 1: It's bloody harps, as it is every time. I hope
Speaker 1: one day, one day, maybe it'll an episode will happen
Speaker 1: and somebody else will be here. They'll say all those words,
Speaker 1: but they'll say it's Brian or it's Tip. It could
Speaker 1: be anyone who knows. But for the time being, you've
Speaker 1: got me and what you're not here yet, you just
Speaker 1: pipe down. But for the foreseeable future, Doctor Sam, they're
Speaker 1: stuck with me. Hi, doctor Sam, Welcome to the You Project.
Speaker 2: Thanks Craig, thanks for having me here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well we I did not know about you until recently,
Speaker 1: but you're a bit of a rock star. And I
Speaker 1: tried to have a little I've got quite a few
Speaker 1: followers across my platforms and like a hundred thousand or something,
Speaker 1: and so trying to try to know everyone who follows
Speaker 1: me is an impossibility. But I probably don't look much
Speaker 1: on Facebook, but a period I look at just who's
Speaker 1: commenting or liking to see to get an idea of
Speaker 1: who's interested in my stuff. And I was just scrolling
Speaker 1: down the other day and I saw doctor Sam Casey PhD,
Speaker 1: and I went well, first, I didn't know if that
Speaker 1: was a boy or a girl, and it's you. It's well,
Speaker 1: not a girl or a boy, it's a woman. It's
Speaker 1: a grown, grown ass woman. And I looked at your
Speaker 1: Instagram page. Tell people your instapage. We normally plug at
Speaker 1: the end, not the start. But what's your insta page?
Speaker 2: You simple? Yep?
Speaker 1: Now, tell people what kind of doctor you are, and like,
Speaker 1: give them what kind of doctor you are. You're a PhD.
Speaker 1: But what's it in and and what do you do?
Speaker 1: Like you and I meet in an elevator, We got
Speaker 1: forty seconds do we hit the ground floor? I go,
Speaker 1: what do you do? What do you tell me?
Speaker 2: Oh gosh, that's a hard one. Well, can let me
Speaker 2: explain the doctor bit? So, yes, I have a pitch
Speaker 2: So it's a research degree, so not a medical adopt
Speaker 2: my field of education with psychology, specifically around play therapy.
Speaker 2: So that is my PhD. And yeah, what do I do?
Speaker 2: So I'm I'm a child therapist read to play therapist,
Speaker 2: and I really wanted to make play therapy more accessible,
Speaker 2: So really take it out of the playroom, take it
Speaker 2: out of the therapy room, and get it into the
Speaker 2: hands of the professionals and the parents who are actually
Speaker 2: around kids all day every day. So that's what I do.
Speaker 2: I teach. I guess how you prescribe play for you know,
Speaker 2: common childhood and parenting issues and making it really I
Speaker 2: guess more of the lens in which I look at that,
Speaker 2: and so going through all the different parts that I
Speaker 2: would be thinking as a child therapist and what's important,
Speaker 2: and then giving those tools to professionals so that they
Speaker 2: can use it as like a decision making tool and
Speaker 2: how to use play best for the child in front
Speaker 2: of them.
Speaker 1: Wow. Wow. And so when you say play therapy, what
Speaker 1: to I don't know is treat the right word, but
Speaker 1: to treat what? Or to assist with what? Or to Yeah?
Speaker 1: So how is it a therapy? What does it treat? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Good question. So play therapy is actually an evidence based treatment,
Speaker 2: and it's a preventive model as well around emotional and
Speaker 2: behavioral issues in children, so you know, even things like
Speaker 2: mental health, you know, so anxiety, depression, but also things
Speaker 2: like school refusal, blended families, stress, anger, like all of
Speaker 2: those kind of issues that you see arise in childhood.
Speaker 2: And I think the greatest thing about play therapy is
Speaker 2: that you can start from like age three because play
Speaker 2: is so accessible for kids. It's their language, it's how
Speaker 2: they process the world, and that's how they use, I guess,
Speaker 2: a tool to be able to figure out what makes
Speaker 2: sense in their world and what's going on for them.
Speaker 2: So they won't use language and talking like we do.
Speaker 2: We can talk things out. Yeah, play it out, yeah, kids,
Speaker 2: play it out?
Speaker 1: All right. All right, I'm trying to get my head
Speaker 1: around this. This is new for me. So thank you.
Speaker 1: This is actually will you'll be pleased to know in
Speaker 1: seventeen hundred and something episodes, we've never had this conversation.
Speaker 1: So well done you, Matt. Yeah, no, it's good. This
Speaker 1: is interesting. So can you give us and asks me
Speaker 1: and a bunch of others listening. Can you give us,
Speaker 1: me and the gang an example of a problem or
Speaker 1: a challenge or an issue and then a prescription to
Speaker 1: treat that, like just an example.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, perfect. So if you had a child and
Speaker 2: you're seeing a challenging behavior. So for example, I had
Speaker 2: this little boy and he was heading animals, so in
Speaker 2: really being really aggressive towards animals, and so the professionals
Speaker 2: around him. So as teacher, you know, speech therapist is
Speaker 2: really concerned. Obviously, his auntie, who was his carel was
Speaker 2: really concerned. And so because I don't know the root
Speaker 2: of that just yet, right, I took a non directive approach.
Speaker 2: So what that means is like a child, let approach,
Speaker 2: let them kind of lead. And it was really interesting
Speaker 2: because the child straight away went to being a vet
Speaker 2: and caring for animals. And so that was session one, right,
Speaker 2: this child was being the one caring for the animals,
Speaker 2: and so as the sessions played out, what actually came
Speaker 2: up was that it was really stemming from jealousy. So
Speaker 2: that was his way in order to be able to
Speaker 2: connect with his care and he didn't know how to
Speaker 2: ask for those needs being met in terms of getting
Speaker 2: the connection, but he knew that if he was to
Speaker 2: hurt the animal, the care really cared about the animal.
Speaker 2: And so when we started to do work with the
Speaker 2: care around that, those issues went. So imagine if I
Speaker 2: went at it from a this is how you treat
Speaker 2: animals and we need to be kind and we need
Speaker 2: to be this, I'd be assuming something that the child
Speaker 2: actually already knew. And so it was really about creating
Speaker 2: a therapytic space. So that child would actually process that himself,
Speaker 2: and then obviously all the other issues came out, and
Speaker 2: so we were able to, I guess, work with the
Speaker 2: people around him to directly do that. On the other
Speaker 2: flip side, right, you could have a child with anxiety,
Speaker 2: and so I had this child with anxiety, and post
Speaker 2: Halloween he was really struggling. He did not leave his
Speaker 2: mom's site because he saw these obviously characters come out,
Speaker 2: you know, knocking on a stel trick of treats, and
Speaker 2: he believed that was real. And even though the mum
Speaker 2: was trying to show him, hey, like you know this
Speaker 2: person behind the mask because it was a neighbor, he
Speaker 2: was too scared. And so in the Playstession, I took
Speaker 2: more of a directive approach because this was an issue
Speaker 2: that had come up and it was really, you know,
Speaker 2: like he had generalized anxiety, but that had really obviously
Speaker 2: peaked to the point where he couldn't be learned in
Speaker 2: the house. And so what we did is we played
Speaker 2: a game, and so I re enacted to Halloween Seed.
Speaker 2: But then I was putting on the mask and taking
Speaker 2: off the mask, and I was talking about how scary
Speaker 2: it is and how it looked, so real to me,
Speaker 2: and so I really kind of reflected right how he
Speaker 2: was feeling. But then I worked him through that next
Speaker 2: step and so that child went home from that session
Speaker 2: and he was okay again. So it shows through the
Speaker 2: power right child less directed?
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So right, so you're you are. So somebody's
Speaker 1: shows up with a problem or a challenge or an
Speaker 1: issue that needs to be treated. But then you design
Speaker 1: play or you design some kind of game. Not the
Speaker 1: right words, but you know what I mean around So
Speaker 1: it's not like, oh, here's the box of games over here.
Speaker 1: You know there's or here's one hundred different play options.
Speaker 1: Pick one of them. So is it your are there
Speaker 1: certain things that you would use consistently? Or is every
Speaker 1: need in every kid in every situation kind of case by.
Speaker 2: Case good questions. So usually in the playroom, especially that
Speaker 2: first example that I gave, where we are just trying
Speaker 2: to explore, right and letting them lead, we have a
Speaker 2: range of toys that actually have a therapeutic I guess
Speaker 2: goal points. So we'll have aggressive toys, we'll have nurturing toys,
Speaker 2: we'll have real life toys, We'll have a lot of
Speaker 2: open ended toys. So things like you know, art materials,
Speaker 2: or they could use it for a number of different things,
Speaker 2: you know, kind of construction type toys. But to be honest,
Speaker 2: the main toy in the tool in the toy box
Speaker 2: is me. It's it's the person. It's the adult there
Speaker 2: to facilitate that. I could do this in the sand
Speaker 2: with sticks, right like, or I could have the best
Speaker 2: of toys and still not be able to do it
Speaker 2: if you just don't have the skill and the intention
Speaker 2: behind what you're doing. So yeah, I very much believe
Speaker 2: that we as you know, the adult is the best
Speaker 2: tool in the tool box.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that is true. That well, that makes sense. Okay,
Speaker 1: There's so many things I want to ask you, so
Speaker 1: many things. Oh my god, I said to you forty
Speaker 1: five minutes. I reckon this might go longer. I'm writing myself.
Speaker 1: This is not very professional everyone, but I'm writing notes
Speaker 1: as we go because.
Speaker 2: Oh I love it.
Speaker 1: I don't want to forget the shit in my head
Speaker 1: to ask Sam. Okay, so I'm going to jump around
Speaker 1: a little bit. But what was your PhD project? Like,
Speaker 1: what did you research for your PhD?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So it actually evolved as I went. Okay, so
Speaker 2: this is really interesting and this is what I love
Speaker 2: about doing a PhD like that and having supervisors that
Speaker 2: support that, because I'm so curious and what would you
Speaker 2: come with obviously shouldn't be what you end with, and
Speaker 2: being able to call out things in the industry. You know,
Speaker 2: you could obviously go two ways with that. So when
Speaker 2: I started, I obviously am multicultural, and so I came
Speaker 2: out from a I'm noticing that a lot of multicultural
Speaker 2: families don't get therapy for their children, and I want
Speaker 2: to know what their barriers are. I want to know
Speaker 2: why there is this potential resistance for it. So I
Speaker 2: started off with interviewing a bunch of parents and I'm saying,
Speaker 2: where is this resistance? How do you feel about therapy?
Speaker 2: How do you feel about play? What would get you
Speaker 2: to go? What would not get you to go? And
Speaker 2: so they were like, I actually have no issue with
Speaker 2: my child going to therapy. That's fine, But I'm just
Speaker 2: really worried that when I talk to the therapists they're
Speaker 2: going to judge me. They're gonna, you know, have a
Speaker 2: different view worldview, They're going to be just like discriminating
Speaker 2: against me. They're going to have these negative views about
Speaker 2: my culture and I'm like, okay, interesting, so let me
Speaker 2: talk to the therapists. So then I interviewed a bunch
Speaker 2: of therapists and I'm like, so, what would be your
Speaker 2: barriers around working with families and children? And They're like, off,
Speaker 2: the child in the player room, no issue at all.
Speaker 2: But I really struggle with the families, you know, because
Speaker 2: they do have these really strong views. And then as
Speaker 2: the therapists were talking, they had all these negative bias
Speaker 2: and I was like, wow, that's really interesting. So what
Speaker 2: the parents are worried about is actually a reality, Like
Speaker 2: that's actually what happens. They had this bias and they
Speaker 2: didn't realize that they had it, and they all had
Speaker 2: very different ways of looking at it. So they were like,
Speaker 2: in order to be respectful, I need to talk about culture,
Speaker 2: like I need to bring that up straight away, and
Speaker 2: other ones would be like, in order to be respectful,
Speaker 2: I need to leave culture out of it, Like, let's
Speaker 2: not even go there. So they all had really different
Speaker 2: views of what respect looks like. But no one was
Speaker 2: checking in with the parents, right, So the children wasn't
Speaker 2: the issue here, it was the parents. And so I
Speaker 2: could have gone two ways with that, right, I could
Speaker 2: have directed it back to what I was looking for,
Speaker 2: or I could say, wow, like there's just not enough
Speaker 2: in trainings. It's all a tick box, right, which is
Speaker 2: learn about how to work with this culture. Now you've
Speaker 2: attended the training tick versus what are your beliefs, what
Speaker 2: everyone's got biased? What do you think about this? What
Speaker 2: triggers you like, let's get deeper into this. So then
Speaker 2: I created a t from both of those two research projects,
Speaker 2: so I actually published. I was publishing as I went.
Speaker 2: So I published both and then I created a training
Speaker 2: and I talked about this and I said, often what
Speaker 2: therapistic they need is knowledge, and what we need is
Speaker 2: more understanding of ourselves. And we need to have that
Speaker 2: self reflection, look at where our blind spots are and
Speaker 2: be willing to work on those. And so I created
Speaker 2: this training, and a lot of therapists you know, gave
Speaker 2: me feedback around that. They were like, wow, I did
Speaker 2: think that I needed more knowledge, but in actual fact,
Speaker 2: I need to think about my views. What do I
Speaker 2: define a respect? Why do I believe that, what are
Speaker 2: my experiences of being minority? If I am like unpacking
Speaker 2: it all? And so that's what I came away with,
Speaker 2: and I guess that was really the foundation of my paperscription,
Speaker 2: which is we have to be doing it in a
Speaker 2: work ourselves, Like if we're going to be working with
Speaker 2: kids and families, we need to check in with ourselves
Speaker 2: constantly about what's that bringing up? Because a lot of
Speaker 2: the time play brings up stuff for us.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Wow, my listeners are listening to this, I can
Speaker 1: tell you twenty eight percent fifty percent agoing. Fuck, she
Speaker 1: talks fast? Has anyone ever told you to fast.
Speaker 2: All the time? And I really hope that they can
Speaker 2: slow it down on the you know, the podcast thing
Speaker 2: because I do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Sam, wow, you you are? You remind me
Speaker 1: of a guy called what's his name? American? Uh? I
Speaker 1: think it's Ben Shapiro. He talks fast. You remind me
Speaker 1: of him, but so not excited at all. That's interesting.
Speaker 1: So what were so you said that some of the
Speaker 1: therapists had unconsciously had biases? What were they?
Speaker 2: They had their negative views about the family, So you know,
Speaker 2: for example, it could be like something as simple as oh, well,
Speaker 2: you know, in their culture, you know, usually the men
Speaker 2: make the decisions. So I was just going to talk
Speaker 2: to the dad and just let the mom kind of
Speaker 2: you know, just be there because she would be making
Speaker 2: decisions anyway. Like in their eyes, they thought they were
Speaker 2: being respectful to the dad and the beliefs of what
Speaker 2: they perceived to be the family, rather than checking in right.
Speaker 2: So it was just again intentionally that there were trying
Speaker 2: to be malicious or anything, but it was just coming
Speaker 2: out in the way that they saw things based on
Speaker 2: obviously their own experiences.
Speaker 1: Right now, this is a little outside the professional kind
Speaker 1: of specialized focus, but as someone who works with kids
Speaker 1: all the time and tries to understand the mind of
Speaker 1: kids and also in conjunction with the adults in their world,
Speaker 1: it's just something I'm curious about. Tell me about Halloween.
Speaker 1: What the fuck do you think of Halloween? Like, what
Speaker 1: are you doctor, Sam? Do we need kids going to
Speaker 1: strangers houses asking for lollies in twenty twenty four? Is
Speaker 1: this what we need? Don't like in any other context? Imagine, Well,
Speaker 1: I keep my gates shut, so I'm not firstly, I
Speaker 1: don't know them. Well I'm not fucking handing out lollies
Speaker 1: to children, And to me, that's just the whole you know,
Speaker 1: that's me though, That's I'm not saying I'm right. I
Speaker 1: don't necessarily think I'm right, but just to me, the
Speaker 1: idea of giving children a whole fucking handful of sugar
Speaker 1: and then sending them on their way, and with all
Speaker 1: the shit that's going on with diabetes going through the
Speaker 1: roof and obesity going through the roof, I know we're
Speaker 1: not allowed to say it, but it's fucking true, right,
Speaker 1: So I get offended or whatever, So it is so
Speaker 1: just true, right, This is not an opinion. Like we've
Speaker 1: never been We've never been a more obese nation, We've
Speaker 1: never had more diabetes, we've never had worse fucking diets,
Speaker 1: and now we're sending kids out to strangers to get
Speaker 1: lollies and fucking sugar, and no one's saying I don't
Speaker 1: know if this is a good idea, but I'm just
Speaker 1: a grumpy old man with them.
Speaker 2: I'm pretty big and interested in stuff too, especially for kids.
Speaker 2: And I think a lot of the time when you
Speaker 2: see a lot of diagnosis is really young, right ADHD
Speaker 2: things like that, no one's looking at the sugar intake
Speaker 2: at all. And so I think Halloween, Yes, that's kind
Speaker 2: of goes against everything that we're saying, but I think
Speaker 2: the bigg shoe really is in the schools because you know,
Speaker 2: at least in Australia we're still using lollipops and icy poles,
Speaker 2: is treats for kids, Like, it's still the rewards that
Speaker 2: are given, and then it's rewards for good behavior. So
Speaker 2: it's like, okay, so for a child to get rewarded,
Speaker 2: you're giving in something that's going to spike their blood
Speaker 2: sugar right up, Like it doesn't make sense.
Speaker 1: Well, and I think it's no secret there's that there's
Speaker 1: a correlation between obviously diet mental health and ADHD and
Speaker 1: kids ability to focus and putting fucking sugar in their bodies.
Speaker 1: And then you know, anyway, you're not here for that,
Speaker 1: but doesn't matter. We can talk about whatever we want.
Speaker 2: It is all related though, it is all related, even
Speaker 2: for parents. I say that too when they're just like, oh,
Speaker 2: I'm just losing my shit in the afternoons, like teaching
Speaker 2: me how to be patient, and I'm like, well, have
Speaker 2: have you eaten? Like are you having protein? You know
Speaker 2: around that time, because of course you're not gonnaeel great
Speaker 2: if you've like starved yourself all day or just et
Speaker 2: you know, the leftovers of kids snacks like that's not Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's not good.
Speaker 1: For you, So tell me how. I'm just cured if
Speaker 1: anyone else is furious with this, but fuck it. How
Speaker 1: does your job work? Inverted commas? In inverted commas to people?
Speaker 1: Do you go to people's houses, do you have a facility?
Speaker 1: Do they come to you? Do you go to organizations?
Speaker 1: How does it work your job?
Speaker 2: That's a good question, and it's evolved over the years.
Speaker 2: So I was a mobile play therapist for a while.
Speaker 2: I was going into schools and you know, doing it
Speaker 2: that way, and then I had an office and really
Speaker 2: right now, I do it online. And that's the reason
Speaker 2: why I do that, and it's very intentional is because
Speaker 2: a lot of the time, as the child therapist, people
Speaker 2: will be like, here is my child, fix this problem?
Speaker 2: And a lot of you know, people are still operating
Speaker 2: in that way. But I know from the research it
Speaker 2: is way more effective to teach the professionals around them,
Speaker 2: to teach the parents, to teach the you know, the teacher,
Speaker 2: whoever else, to support a child's mental health. It does
Speaker 2: not have to be me. So I have purposely moved
Speaker 2: online to be able to access that and going Actually,
Speaker 2: I want to work with everyone around the child. They
Speaker 2: have a lot more power and influence over the environment.
Speaker 2: So it's important that they feel because it's not going
Speaker 2: to be a ten session quick fix. You know, this
Speaker 2: is for life. Kids have mental health for life. So yeah,
Speaker 2: for me, it's online. I meet with him online and
Speaker 2: do it that way.
Speaker 1: Amazing. Yeah, by the way, did you know Ryan Holiday
Speaker 1: follows you?
Speaker 2: No? I did not know that.
Speaker 1: Really, did you not know that? I did not know that?
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I lot all his books.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm like Ryan Holiday. Now if you
Speaker 1: don't know, he's probably I mean, he's probably the biggest
Speaker 1: author on Stoicism in the last decade or so in
Speaker 1: the world. He's always banging on, and he's a very
Speaker 1: good writer, and he's a very good researcher. And obviously
Speaker 1: he's no Socrates or Marcus Aurelius or Epictetis or but
Speaker 1: he talks about it all.
Speaker 2: And he's he makes it makes sense though. Like I
Speaker 2: was actually recently in Greece and I was getting all
Speaker 2: up into the Greek philosophers, and just his books always
Speaker 2: come back at me.
Speaker 1: Well, he follows you, doctor Sam. And I'm a little
Speaker 1: bit jealous because got a little bit of a crush
Speaker 1: on him. So you were talking about the assumptions that
Speaker 1: people make based on you know, uh, parents and families,
Speaker 1: culture and stuff. What what's your background if you don't
Speaker 1: mind me asking, Yeah.
Speaker 2: No, not at all. I'm so I'm Anglo Indian, so
Speaker 2: it's like Indian mixed with Irish and English. I was
Speaker 2: born in Australia though, and my parents came here when
Speaker 2: there were six, both of them. So yeah, I feel
Speaker 2: like i'm culturalise and part Australian.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're an as you're an aussy dude, Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah so, And it says on your I just wanted
Speaker 1: to ask you this because I found the interesting. It
Speaker 1: says on your ig profile recovering good girl. What what
Speaker 1: does that mean? What is recovery? What's a recovering good girl?
Speaker 1: Did you used to be a good girl and now
Speaker 1: and now you've.
Speaker 2: Bed pretty much with the cause?
Speaker 1: What so you're now you're a good girl? And you
Speaker 1: were a trade? No? No? You were you a straighty
Speaker 1: one eighty? Were you like the perfect No?
Speaker 2: Well I was and then I wasn't so well kind
Speaker 2: of so growing up I was like probably like the
Speaker 2: good little Indian child, like I was really quiet, yes,
Speaker 2: thank you please, so polite, did all the right things.
Speaker 2: Was just you know, and this is probably the outer though,
Speaker 2: because you know, my parents talk about how I was
Speaker 2: like a bit of a rebel at home, but you know,
Speaker 2: that's kind of how I grew up going I want
Speaker 2: to do you know, I want to be good and
Speaker 2: do things the right way, and I was always worried
Speaker 2: about being nice and you know, again pleasing others. Obviously
Speaker 2: lost a bit of that when I was a teenager
Speaker 2: and I left school like halfway through year ten because
Speaker 2: that's what I wanted to do. So there was definitely
Speaker 2: a steering away from that. But then I continued that
Speaker 2: in my adult life. You know, I was my marriage.
Speaker 2: I married a Muslim, and you know, he had a
Speaker 2: lot of obviously strict rules around certain things, and I
Speaker 2: was like, Okay, I'm going to be like this perfect
Speaker 2: wife and I'm gonna be this perfect mom. And then
Speaker 2: I became a mom and I was like, I don't
Speaker 2: want to be a perfect mom. That's not authentic. That's
Speaker 2: not what I want to teach my daughter, and that's
Speaker 2: not like the message I want to be sending. And
Speaker 2: so then I had to go through this like I'm
Speaker 2: I guess this whole inner work stuff of who am
Speaker 2: I and what do I want and how I can
Speaker 2: be more authentic in my own power And to be honest,
Speaker 2: it was actually my daughter. So she's seven now and
Speaker 2: my first one is nine, But it was a birth
Speaker 2: of my daughter that really shook things up for me
Speaker 2: because she reminded me of me when I was little,
Speaker 2: Like she had this power and like this little fire
Speaker 2: sorry in her and she knew what she wanted and
Speaker 2: she like just wanted wants to go after it. And
Speaker 2: I was like, I can't actually support that and foster that.
Speaker 2: I'm if I've shut that down within myself, like I
Speaker 2: have to. I have to get that part of me
Speaker 2: back that determines sam that you know, persevering through things.
Speaker 2: But in ways that made sense to me, right, that
Speaker 2: honored you know, who I was, And so yeah, that
Speaker 2: was a whole journey in itself.
Speaker 1: Wow, that is super interesting, like trying to trying to
Speaker 1: figure out the self in the middle of our own life.
Speaker 1: Like my PhD is in self awareness. But oh love that. Well. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm always talking to people about you know, it's funny
Speaker 1: when you ask somebody to tell to tell them for
Speaker 1: them to tell you about them. So I'll go, you know,
Speaker 1: sometimes I'll just sit down with someone and go, all right,
Speaker 1: tell me about you, and then they tell me where
Speaker 1: their house is and where they went to school, and
Speaker 1: you know what star sign they are or what car
Speaker 1: they drive, or I'm like, well, none of those are you.
Speaker 1: They're interest that's interesting. But tell me about you though,
Speaker 1: not your car, not your job, not how many fucking
Speaker 1: followers you've got. Don't tell me about your height or weight,
Speaker 1: or you don't even tell me about your body, because
Speaker 1: that's not you either, Like tell me about you, like,
Speaker 1: not your brand, your business.
Speaker 2: My point because I think a lot of people even
Speaker 2: use relationships are like I'm a you know, I'm this
Speaker 2: person's partner, I'm a wife, or I'm a mother or
Speaker 2: like they just have these labels. But it's like, well,
Speaker 2: that's a relationship that's not necessarily you.
Speaker 1: And I can hear my listeners going no, that is
Speaker 1: a big part of who I am, And of course
Speaker 1: I agree. But it's like, I think, the kind of
Speaker 1: philosophical question and is trying to figure out in the
Speaker 1: middle of all of the busyness, mayhem and roles and
Speaker 1: you know that whatever, Oh, I'm an academic, or I'm
Speaker 1: a bricklayer, I'm a fucking astronaut, or I'm a pisces,
Speaker 1: or I'm a vegan, or I'm a crossfitter or I'm
Speaker 1: a whatever. You know, it's like trying to figure out
Speaker 1: the self in the middle of all. So can I
Speaker 1: feel free to tell me to buck off with any
Speaker 1: of these inappropriate questions? Doctor Sam? So did you become
Speaker 1: a Muslim when you married a Muslim man? Was that
Speaker 1: that's part of the deal, right?
Speaker 2: Not something I identify with now, but yeah, at the time.
Speaker 1: I did right, right? Okay? And so how is I
Speaker 1: don't want to talk about that in depth for obvious reasons,
Speaker 1: but now being a So the kids live with you
Speaker 1: all the time full time or no?
Speaker 2: We share fifty to fifty customers, okay?
Speaker 1: And so do you get to take any of your
Speaker 1: therapy and theories and ideas around play for a test
Speaker 1: drive with the kids? So they are they your crash
Speaker 1: test dummies?
Speaker 2: Of course, we like not in the way you'd think,
Speaker 2: like I think a lot of the time people, you know,
Speaker 2: you'd probably be thinking, I'm doing some sort of like
Speaker 2: structure activity and I'm trying to teach them this. No,
Speaker 2: it's like dance parties like every night, right, Like that's
Speaker 2: my thing. I love having dance parties with my kids.
Speaker 2: But yes, definitely, play is is a language. That's one
Speaker 2: thing I focus on and in such a I guess
Speaker 2: it's really potent. I think it's just so powerful, you know,
Speaker 2: when they're going through something or if there's any stress
Speaker 2: or whatever we're doing, it's just the perfect way to reconnect.
Speaker 2: So yeah, love it. I'm very playful with them, but
Speaker 2: also even just for myself too, like it's just a
Speaker 2: way of life. Yeah.
Speaker 1: There's a very famous quote by I think it's by
Speaker 1: George Bernard Shaw and you would have heard it and
Speaker 1: most of our listeners would have heard it, and it's
Speaker 1: we don't stop playing because we grow old. We grow
Speaker 1: old because we stop playing, right. And one of the
Speaker 1: one I mean this is like one of my favorite
Speaker 1: things is laughing at stupid shit, is hanging out if
Speaker 1: generally it's my male friends, sometimes you know, females, but
Speaker 1: male friends, talking shit about not much, riding my motorbikes,
Speaker 1: not thinking, not having a serious conversation, not working on business,
Speaker 1: not working on my study, not just just hanging out
Speaker 1: and laughing at stupid shit, which I know ladies don't
Speaker 1: love that as much.
Speaker 2: I know I actually do it. It's funny because my
Speaker 2: kids they like the number one thing, you know, when
Speaker 2: we're hanging out in the evenings or ask like tell
Speaker 2: me more embarrassing stories about what you did when you
Speaker 2: were little, they just love it. Or even now, right,
Speaker 2: they just like hearing embarrassing shit that I do. So
Speaker 2: I gotta always like keep tab with that.
Speaker 1: But I wonder why as we I wonder why we
Speaker 1: stop prioritize, prioritizing having fun, Like I know, it's I
Speaker 1: even ask grown ups, you know, I go, so, you know,
Speaker 1: we go through everything we talked about last time, we
Speaker 1: talk about you know, we talk about excise, and we
Speaker 1: talk about purpose and focus and relationships and career and lifestyle,
Speaker 1: and we talk about all the big ticket items, you know,
Speaker 1: all the jigsaw puzzle pieces that make up the fucking
Speaker 1: puzzle that is you. Right, But I often say to
Speaker 1: people do you like having fun? And they look at
Speaker 1: me like, well, that's the dumbest fucking question ever. Of course,
Speaker 1: I go, what's your fun plan? They're like what, I go,
Speaker 1: what's your fund? Like what are the things about fun plan?
Speaker 2: I want to use that now well.
Speaker 1: One hundred percent, Like I think grown ups do not
Speaker 1: have fun. I intentionally, I intentionally do things that there
Speaker 1: is no purpose other than laughter or fun. That is
Speaker 1: that is me, and I just like there's a component
Speaker 1: of me and people who know me well, like I'm
Speaker 1: a sixty year old, fucking twelve year old, Like do
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? And it's like, if you're
Speaker 1: ticking all these boxes and hustling and grinding and fucking whatever,
Speaker 1: but your life is devoid of fun or laughter or joy,
Speaker 1: I reckon, you got it wrong?
Speaker 2: Yeah, like are you even living right? But I think
Speaker 2: a lot of the time it's a stress. It's not
Speaker 2: just distress, but it's also you know, our minds are
Speaker 2: caught up either in the past or the future. So
Speaker 2: it's worrying about future stuff that may or may not happen,
Speaker 2: or worrying about past mistakes or past shit that we
Speaker 2: can't really change. In it, we're not really present. And
Speaker 2: I think a lot of the time people think of
Speaker 2: presence as like meditation or yoga. No, it's played like
Speaker 2: if you're in the moment and you're having fun and
Speaker 2: you're laughing, like you're present, like you're yeah, just loving life.
Speaker 1: Maybe with adults that like, it's not so much typically
Speaker 1: a childlike play, but perhaps more creativity where we're creating
Speaker 1: something like I'm People would think I'm much more science
Speaker 1: here because of my work and my degrees and stuff,
Speaker 1: but I'm actually more of a creative Like I love
Speaker 1: conceptualizing something, coming up with an idea and turning that
Speaker 1: thing in my head into a thing in the world
Speaker 1: that intersects in a three dimensional way with humans. You know.
Speaker 1: It's like and whether or not that's whatever, you know.
Speaker 1: It's like, I opened the first personal training business in
Speaker 1: Australia and at least fifty adults told me not to
Speaker 1: do it, people who knew more than me in inverted commas.
Speaker 2: Right, they said, the first one in Australia. That's incredible.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was in nine ninety. That
Speaker 1: was thirty four years ago, when you weren't even born.
Speaker 1: That's annoying.
Speaker 2: I was actually born in nineteen nineties, Oh were you?
Speaker 1: So that's yeah, so what the year you were born?
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying I don't know, great because it
Speaker 1: would have happened anyway, But I had, you know, I
Speaker 1: was training people. There were virtually like I started training
Speaker 1: pting in nineteen eighty six, which is, you know, obviously
Speaker 1: nearly forty years ago, and there was pretty much no one,
Speaker 1: if anyone, doing that in Australia. There was no qualification,
Speaker 1: there was no course, there was no registration, there was
Speaker 1: no insurance, there was no industry, there was no personal
Speaker 1: training industry.
Speaker 2: Right, wow, you and the dumbbells.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just me and the dumbbells.
Speaker 3: And I basically, you know, had this idea and I'm
Speaker 3: sure somebody else would have had the idea, but to
Speaker 3: conceptualize that and to start doing appointment only training with
Speaker 3: people and you know, figuring out this shit and then
Speaker 3: you eventually and yes, of course it would have happened
Speaker 3: despite me, but it so happens.
Speaker 1: I got in on the ground floor. And then to
Speaker 1: watch this idea that I had four decades ago become
Speaker 1: this flourishing thing that it is, it's like, you know,
Speaker 1: and then whatever it is, you know, it's like you
Speaker 1: I just launched a new workshop tonight which is called
Speaker 1: as We Record. It's the third of December. It's a
Speaker 1: Tuesday night called pre Season twenty twenty five, right, And
Speaker 1: so even with that, I go, all right, I'm going
Speaker 1: to do a workshop about helping people get their shit
Speaker 1: together so that their New Year's resolutions actually turn into
Speaker 1: something tangible, not just to fucking another year roles by
Speaker 1: where they have these conversations and set these goals and
Speaker 1: have these wishes that never.
Speaker 2: N nothing changes. Of course, to bring that, you know,
Speaker 2: back to the PT stuff, I think weight training is
Speaker 2: the perfect thing for that. I absolutely love weight training.
Speaker 2: I think it's been such a game changer for mental health,
Speaker 2: for everything. But it's also a way to show up
Speaker 2: for yourself. And you're having to like sit with the weights, right,
Speaker 2: and you know, some exercises I'm like, oh, I can
Speaker 2: go heavier. Others I'm like, oh, I think it's too much.
Speaker 2: And you're having to find that perfect balance of growing
Speaker 2: your muscles. So you have to push yourself obviously not
Speaker 2: to the point of injury, but then obviously not to
Speaker 2: the point if you're not feeling anything. And it's just
Speaker 2: that constant again presence with yourself. And I find this
Speaker 2: year different exercises, different days. Feel stronger one day, feel
Speaker 2: a bit weaker the next, But you know, when you're
Speaker 2: tracking that it's really exciting. I think weight training is
Speaker 2: amazing for that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and also I mean also you can So when
Speaker 1: I train every night, I'm with one of my best
Speaker 1: mates and another mate and sometimes there's a third one.
Speaker 1: So I trained tonight with John and Mark, two of
Speaker 1: my mates, and that for me, that's play because we.
Speaker 2: Are playing around my playground.
Speaker 1: Well, it's like a big fucking grown ups playground.
Speaker 2: It is heavyweights in itself is like a prescription, right,
Speaker 2: It's amazing, Oh so much.
Speaker 1: So I can't really say it too much anymore because
Speaker 1: people roll their eyes and go, well, of course you
Speaker 1: fucking say that.
Speaker 2: Can I say them? I'll say it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I've noticed quite quite a few grown ups, more
Speaker 1: women than men, I think. But that's just what I've seen.
Speaker 1: So it could be wrong getting into grown ups getting
Speaker 1: into coloring coloring books? Have you seen that?
Speaker 2: I have mindful coloring books. That's a thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what what is that? Is that? Just? Is that
Speaker 1: like a is that a metaation? Is that a throwback
Speaker 1: to childhood where it creates neuro associations with good taptivity.
Speaker 2: It's one of the things to help people be more mindful,
Speaker 2: to be more present, you know when you're coloring in
Speaker 2: and there's obviously this light design. You're actually you're sitting
Speaker 2: there and you're coloring, and it kind of brings you
Speaker 2: back to the now. So it's just another tool. But
Speaker 2: I can you've got to find your thing. Like, for me,
Speaker 2: that's not a thing. I don't enjoy that. I mean,
Speaker 2: I'm sitting down a lot of the day. So for me,
Speaker 2: it's with the weight training. I need to be able
Speaker 2: to move. That's been me being mindful. But for some
Speaker 2: other people, yeah, it's the coloring in books. They love it.
Speaker 2: So I think it's about testing different things, experimenting and finding,
Speaker 2: you know, what works for you.
Speaker 1: I'm interested to hear about the girl who dropped out
Speaker 1: in year ten who is now a fucking PhD. Like, what, right,
Speaker 1: that's a bit of it. Well, I don't you might
Speaker 1: be the first one I've met. I don't know too
Speaker 1: many people that finish school in year ten. And even so,
Speaker 1: let's say year ten, you were what fifteen or something? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I in two thousand and five ish, there weren't too
Speaker 1: many people finishing school at year ten, right.
Speaker 2: No, but I definitely was the first out of there.
Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about that. Journey from wanting
Speaker 1: to get out of school to getting Obviously, you went
Speaker 1: back and did did you do year twelve? Or you
Speaker 1: just started an undergrad as a mature aid student or
Speaker 1: what did you do?
Speaker 2: So I'll go with the getting out first, right. So
Speaker 2: I was failing school, like I couldn't focus. I was
Speaker 2: just there to socialize. I wasn't retaining stuff, I wasn't interested.
Speaker 2: Like nothing made sense to me. And so I was like,
Speaker 2: what can I do? Like leaving year ten? I can
Speaker 2: be a hairdresser. I love doing my hair. That makes sense.
Speaker 2: So that was my plan? Why not?
Speaker 1: Right? Quite the master plan, doctor Sam.
Speaker 2: I was pretty impressed with myself. I was like, this
Speaker 2: is it? Of course, you know, life at other plans.
Speaker 2: And I found myself working at a childcay center because
Speaker 2: apparently that's one of the places you can get a
Speaker 2: job without any tape studies. Because even Cape wouldn't take me.
Speaker 2: So I actually take, for those who don't know, is
Speaker 2: like a higher education, not quite university, but that little
Speaker 2: bit lower. And because I didn't finish there ten, I
Speaker 2: couldn't get in there. So I started working at this
Speaker 2: childcare center and I came across the little boy and
Speaker 2: he had just visited his parents and he was in
Speaker 2: care child protection, right, so he was with foster carers.
Speaker 2: But he just visited his parents and he came back
Speaker 2: and he was super aggressive, and I had all of
Speaker 2: the childcare workers telling me how to handle the behavior,
Speaker 2: and just a part of me was like, I think,
Speaker 2: I just need to be around, not too close, but
Speaker 2: just be there and let him play out what he
Speaker 2: needed to. And I saw how therapeutic that was. It
Speaker 2: was like a release, and I was like, this must
Speaker 2: be a thing. So I went home. Obviously there was
Speaker 2: no Google, it was like nine MSM. But I was
Speaker 2: like play therapy. And then I found this huge world
Speaker 2: of play therapy, which was massive in America, not quite
Speaker 2: big in Australia yet, and that's when I was like,
Speaker 2: I'm going back. So I did a trainee ship, so
Speaker 2: I did like a certificate three in children's services while
Speaker 2: I was working at the childcare center. And then I
Speaker 2: did a university preparation course and then I did in
Speaker 2: undergrad in psychology and children Family Studies, and that was
Speaker 2: just amazing, Like I absolutely loved everything about what I
Speaker 2: was learning. I still didn't know though, the next step,
Speaker 2: and I started doing play therapy studies and that's when
Speaker 2: I discovered I could do a Master of Social Work
Speaker 2: and work in shop protection because I really wanted to
Speaker 2: experience that, but then still keep going with my play therapy.
Speaker 2: So did that, and then I actually wanted to do
Speaker 2: more play therapy studies. I became a wretched play therapist.
Speaker 2: And thankfully it was the lecture at the university that
Speaker 2: was like, well, you want to do your research, why
Speaker 2: do another master's do a PhD? And I was like,
Speaker 2: I can't do a PhD. I don't have the grades
Speaker 2: for that, and she was like, no, you know, you
Speaker 2: start off doing research and you know you prove yourself,
Speaker 2: like you show that you can work at that level.
Speaker 2: And so yeah, I ended up getting into this PhD program.
Speaker 2: I ended up getting a scholarship just by you know,
Speaker 2: being a credit average student. I definitely didn't ace university
Speaker 2: and anything, but I had this vision and it was
Speaker 2: amazing how many doors just kept opening when I just
Speaker 2: was like, I'm going to be an expand play therapy,
Speaker 2: like that is why I'm here, and so it almost
Speaker 2: like it sparked this huge internal drive within me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's amazing, that's amazing. Isn't it funny how the
Speaker 1: girl who couldn't focus, the girl that was failing, becomes
Speaker 1: the woman that gets a PhD and can focus. And
Speaker 1: so how old were you when you started your first degree?
Speaker 2: So I was nineteen.
Speaker 1: Wow. Well that was a quick That was a pretty
Speaker 1: quick turnaround.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean it went from wow wow. And so you
Speaker 1: figured out at fifteen or sixteen how to manage this
Speaker 1: kid that was for most other people unmanageable.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it was this intuit like it was weird
Speaker 2: because it was this intuitive thing of like, I know
Speaker 2: everything I've been taught. This goes back to the good
Speaker 2: girl conditioning right of wanting to be a good childcare worker.
Speaker 2: I knew everything I was taught. I knew all the
Speaker 2: strategies and how to redirect the play and distract and
Speaker 2: all of those things. But another part of me was like,
Speaker 2: he's really struggling right now, and I think he needs
Speaker 2: me here to take over, but just to really hear
Speaker 2: what he's saying. And he's not using words, but he's
Speaker 2: playing out something. And so when I did that, and
Speaker 2: I saw the benefit of how much that just released him,
Speaker 2: and then he just came back into the fold of
Speaker 2: everything I saw. I witnessed that power of play, and
Speaker 2: I was like sold. You know, before I even learned
Speaker 2: anything about it, I was like, this is the thing
Speaker 2: I need to get out here. I need to show
Speaker 2: other people. And I was using it in all other
Speaker 2: you know, when I was working in to our Protection,
Speaker 2: I started to use that. I used it in all
Speaker 2: different settings. And I think it's just so powerful when
Speaker 2: we know how to sit back and not take over
Speaker 2: and let the child play.
Speaker 1: Is this kind of therapy potentially going to help some
Speaker 1: kids avoid being medicated?
Speaker 2: I think so. I think very much though, because what
Speaker 2: ends up happening, especially if the parents doing it. We
Speaker 2: have obviously the play therapy models where we teach parents this,
Speaker 2: but when parents get to know their child's needs, it's
Speaker 2: not so much a we need to squash this, but
Speaker 2: rather what do they need? And then they go get
Speaker 2: that need met. I mean, I was the person studying
Speaker 2: and then taking a break on the trampoline. I'll go
Speaker 2: all you know, going for a quick ride and then
Speaker 2: coming back Like I was able to figure that out
Speaker 2: for myself doing a PhD, because I did that online.
Speaker 2: But for a lot of the kids at school, they
Speaker 2: don't have that environment. So I think having caregivers around
Speaker 2: where they tap into their energy would definitely say kids
Speaker 2: from getting medicated because they're actually being able to build
Speaker 2: the other things right in learning how their brain works well.
Speaker 1: And you think about like when you take a drug,
Speaker 1: it's changing your brain chemistry, When you bounce on a trampoline,
Speaker 1: it's changing your brain chemistry. When you lie on the
Speaker 1: floor and cuddle a dog. If you love dogs, it changes,
Speaker 1: or even if you hate them, right, but in a
Speaker 1: different way. But it's all about how do I change,
Speaker 1: you know, how do I change what's happening in my body?
Speaker 1: You know these anxiety responses, or these dopamine or this
Speaker 1: serotinin response or this you know, like cortisole response, or
Speaker 1: you know, there's so many ways to manipulate the one
Speaker 1: of the more scientific term the inner workings of the body, right,
Speaker 1: you know, hormonally, nervous system, all of those things that
Speaker 1: don't necessarily and by the way, everyone this is not
Speaker 1: a recommendation or a prescription. This is just a conversation.
Speaker 1: But I think you know, like even we've seen in
Speaker 1: grown ups the comparison between people who use the right
Speaker 1: kind of exercise to treat depression versus an antidepressant, and
Speaker 1: in nearly all of the studies will all of the
Speaker 1: studies that I've looked at anyway, University of South Australia
Speaker 1: did a big one this time last year. I think
Speaker 1: it was November twenty twenty three. UNISA came out with
Speaker 1: these massive this massive paper around how exercise outperforms or
Speaker 1: in their study it outperformed you know, antidepressants. And again
Speaker 1: we're not telling anyone to get off anything or on anything,
Speaker 1: but it's at the very least it's worth, you know,
Speaker 1: if we can do something to our body, or support
Speaker 1: other people to do something which is fun based or
Speaker 1: play based or you know, something that's actually going to
Speaker 1: change what's happening in not only their brain and their
Speaker 1: mind but also their entire body, it's worth at least exploring, right,
Speaker 1: Oh definitely.
Speaker 2: And I think we we just don't get the power
Speaker 2: of things like exercise. And I think even for a
Speaker 2: lot of women, I hear this where they're like, oh,
Speaker 2: but I don't like to run, and I'm like, no
Speaker 2: one said you have to run. You know, there's different
Speaker 2: kinds of movements, but I think it's comes down to
Speaker 2: us taking responsibility as well, really for our lives and
Speaker 2: our habits and going okay, like feeling depressed. Yes, medication
Speaker 2: could be one piece of that Puzzleble what else? How
Speaker 2: am I spending my time? You know? Am I moving
Speaker 2: my body? Like you said? What am I filling my
Speaker 2: body with? And then being able to continue to tweak
Speaker 2: those things and get to the root causes of that,
Speaker 2: you know, the emotional eating, whatever else is going on.
Speaker 2: So I think for me, anyway, I think it comes
Speaker 2: down to taking that responsibility for our lives than our habits,
Speaker 2: and like you said, they rewire our brain like it's
Speaker 2: so powerful.
Speaker 1: Also, here's another idea, doctors, Sam, you know I don't
Speaker 1: like running, Well, it doesn't matter. You don't have to
Speaker 1: like it like you'll like it like not. And I'm
Speaker 1: not you know, I'm not trying to be a hard ass,
Speaker 1: but we don't need to like everything. Not everything needs
Speaker 1: to be fun or painless. Right, Sometimes the things that
Speaker 1: are really fucking effective suck for a little bit of time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like it's uncomfortable, like no one likes to do it.
Speaker 2: I wasn't like super like Joyce the whole time I
Speaker 2: was with my PhD or even exercising. I still don't
Speaker 2: want to do it sometimes, but you'll never regret doing it.
Speaker 2: And I think when you know that, then you develop
Speaker 2: that self discipline right where you're like, yes, I don't
Speaker 2: feel like it, but I'm going to do the thing anyway,
Speaker 2: And that feels self trust, which is really important.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean the other thing is too. You know,
Speaker 1: when you go for your run whatever, you're doing something
Speaker 1: good for your heart and your lungs and your body
Speaker 1: and all of that. But you know what else is
Speaker 1: interesting is you know, it's that whole kind of that
Speaker 1: old chestnut about it's not about getting to the top
Speaker 1: of the mountain. That's about who you become on the climb, right,
Speaker 1: who might becoming like when I do these you know,
Speaker 1: and Andrew Human talks about the anterior mid singulate cortex,
Speaker 1: the part of the brain that literally gets a bit
Speaker 1: bigger when we do things that are hard that we
Speaker 1: don't want to do right, And it's that like when
Speaker 1: I lean into the suck, right, when I do the
Speaker 1: shit that I know that I need to do to
Speaker 1: create the outcome I want, but in the moment, I
Speaker 1: don't want to do it. I don't feel like doing it,
Speaker 1: but I do it nonetheless. Apart from ticking the box
Speaker 1: and creating progress, what I'm doing to myself is I'm
Speaker 1: building competence and resilience and strength and cognitive fitness. Right
Speaker 1: I'm actually changing. Just like when you go and lift
Speaker 1: heavy shit, you build muscles. Well, when you go and
Speaker 1: lift heavy shit with your mind, metaphorically, you're building decision
Speaker 1: making muscles, You're building resilience muscles, you're building calm and
Speaker 1: the chaos equanimity muscle. You know. So sometimes we've just
Speaker 1: got to do shit that in the moment we don't.
Speaker 2: Want to do definitely. And I think often when we're
Speaker 2: in situations like that, we can just blame the external
Speaker 2: like I'm too busy right now, or I've got young kids,
Speaker 2: or I've got this work schedule, I have no time.
Speaker 2: But if we honestly sat there in a room with
Speaker 2: just us and I don't know the book or you
Speaker 2: know us, and the ways we realize it's actually just
Speaker 2: really hard. We're just blaming external stuff. We take a
Speaker 2: lot of that out, it's still hard.
Speaker 1: And this is part of you know, self awareness, Like
Speaker 1: real self awareness is painful because you know, like when
Speaker 1: you really do and I said to Melissa, who runs
Speaker 1: my life. We're having a chat the other day, and
Speaker 1: everyone thinks everyone says to me, not everyone, that's bullshit.
Speaker 1: A lot of people have said to me, Sam, Yeah, oh,
Speaker 1: you work so hard, you work so much, you work
Speaker 1: so many hours. You know, you're doing this and that,
Speaker 1: and you know what I kind of do. But also
Speaker 1: I fuck around, like I waste time. Like, yes, I
Speaker 1: that too. Yeah, I do a podcast every day of
Speaker 1: the year, right, but I mean that's an hour a day, Like,
Speaker 1: it's not exactly ten hours a day. Right. Then I've
Speaker 1: got to write some copy and come up with a title,
Speaker 1: So that's a little bit of time. And yes, I'm studying,
Speaker 1: and yeah, I do like quite a lot of corporate
Speaker 1: gigs a year and all of that stuff. But honestly,
Speaker 1: also I waste a lot of time. And I was
Speaker 1: talking to Melissa about this the other day and I said,
Speaker 1: everyone thinks I work harder than I actually work, and
Speaker 1: I don't. I kind of let them think that because
Speaker 1: my ego likes it, right, But it's actually not true,
Speaker 1: Like it depends on you know, what the baseline is
Speaker 1: or what the comparison is. But you know, and I
Speaker 1: just think that this in this whole space of you
Speaker 1: know what we're talking about now, which is you know,
Speaker 1: like training our mind or training our body, or and
Speaker 1: then owning up without beating yourself up. No, not self clothing,
Speaker 1: self awareness, but owning up and going, you know what,
Speaker 1: I'm wasting my time or I'm I'm the problem. It's
Speaker 1: like we like everyone else to be the problem because
Speaker 1: if everyone else is the problem, we need to change, right,
Speaker 1: I don't need to Well, it's Sam's fault, clearly, and
Speaker 1: if it's Sam's fault, then Craig doesn't have to change.
Speaker 2: So that suits Craig, you know, yeah, yeah, you're so
Speaker 2: right about that. And it almost like it keeps us stuck, right,
Speaker 2: the avoidance of that keeps us stuck rather than calling
Speaker 2: ourselves out on our shit in a really loving way,
Speaker 2: but in a like this is I'm getting in my
Speaker 2: own way here, like what am I doing? Like what
Speaker 2: needs to shift? And I think that's really empowering. I
Speaker 2: mean it's uncomfortable, but it's empowering.
Speaker 1: And how many of us, so I know we've changed
Speaker 1: tact in the conversation doesn't matter, but how many of
Speaker 1: us really waste potential? Waste? Time, waste energy, and then
Speaker 1: I mean you've not you, not you clearly, but you
Speaker 1: know I and I don't meant it in a judging way.
Speaker 1: I meant it in a supportive way. Like I meet
Speaker 1: so many people who are one hundred percent smarter than me,
Speaker 1: Like they're smarter than me, they've got more talent, they've
Speaker 1: got I'm like, fuck, I wish I had your genetics.
Speaker 1: I wish I had your creativity. I wish I had
Speaker 1: your brain and your memory. Like I meet so many
Speaker 1: people who have got so much potential, but they're either
Speaker 1: paralyzed by fear or they're trapped in some kind of
Speaker 1: I don't know them well, I don't know OCD or
Speaker 1: or laziness or avoidance or a bit of all of it,
Speaker 1: or and they just kind of hope an opportunity comes along.
Speaker 1: I'm like, here's an idea, create an opportunity, you know,
Speaker 1: go on.
Speaker 2: I doesn't say no, You're so right about that. I like,
Speaker 2: I say this all the time, Like I, you know,
Speaker 2: did not get the best grades in university, and there
Speaker 2: was so many students that are like fully surpassing me
Speaker 2: in terms of their intellect, and even PhD students that
Speaker 2: were working double the amount as I was I doing,
Speaker 2: and yet I was making more progress. Why because they
Speaker 2: were really struggling with failure, any any perceived bit of failure.
Speaker 2: They just couldn't take it. It was just too much and
Speaker 2: they didn't know how to. It's almost like they were
Speaker 2: on level ten and they just had to write up
Speaker 2: their level one and they just couldn't do that anymore.
Speaker 2: It was really tough. So I realized that's actually a benefit,
Speaker 2: right when we can call ourselves that our own ship.
Speaker 2: But also when we're used to failure, when we see
Speaker 2: that as part of the process, we then don't fear it.
Speaker 2: We just keep up leveling because we're like, cool, I'm
Speaker 2: on the right track.
Speaker 1: I read I read in your notes that you work
Speaker 1: in prisons. Is that right? Or you did What does
Speaker 1: a play therapist do in prison?
Speaker 2: Well, see, I'm not just a play therapist. I'm a
Speaker 2: mentor health social worker. So I do counseling. So I've
Speaker 2: done counseling, you know, with moms, wait in private practice.
Speaker 2: You know, prison is another environment. Yeah, so not doing play.
Speaker 1: That's a big cross section of the humanity. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it is.
Speaker 2: But I think when you work with the double. It's right.
Speaker 2: We're always working within a child and even with ourselves,
Speaker 2: like there's always that you know, kind of core childhood
Speaker 2: wounds that we all have and it still runs our
Speaker 2: life because that's where a lot of our programming was
Speaker 2: really set down, and that's how we see the world.
Speaker 2: And so I think that that lens is really helpful
Speaker 2: too when working with adults.
Speaker 1: What do you think This is just an opinion, but
Speaker 1: what do you think gets in the way most people? Like,
Speaker 1: most people are not where they want to be. It
Speaker 1: doesn't mean they hate their life, but most people, if
Speaker 1: you say, who'd like to be make more money, or
Speaker 1: be leaner, or change your body, be healthier, fitter, or
Speaker 1: you know, like most people have got something or some
Speaker 1: things about their life that they really want to change,
Speaker 1: but at the same time, they're not doing anything to
Speaker 1: change it. Right, Yep, what do you think that's about?
Speaker 2: Oh, there's so much there, But I think it comes
Speaker 2: down to how they see themselves really, right, go on, yeah,
Speaker 2: go on expanding sound okay, So how they see themselves.
Speaker 2: They have really limiting beliefs and so like let's just
Speaker 2: say exercise, Okay, someone you know wants to get healthier,
Speaker 2: they're gonna what they do is they got all or nothing.
Speaker 2: So they're like, I need to be that person that's
Speaker 2: at the gym, you know, for an hour a day,
Speaker 2: and I need to have all the right clothes and
Speaker 2: I need to do it in this way. And the
Speaker 2: second that they don't, they're like, it's all I can't
Speaker 2: do this. I always do this, I always fail this,
Speaker 2: and they just go back to living their life. It's
Speaker 2: almost like the shame kind of takes over.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: So it's either like I'm also more on horrible. There's
Speaker 2: nothing in between, and so they're not psychologically flexible in
Speaker 2: the sense of going, I need I need to call
Speaker 2: myself out in this I keep getting in my own way.
Speaker 2: What are my barriers? I need to show up for
Speaker 2: myself every day. I need to believe that I can
Speaker 2: be that person. And so it's closing the gap between
Speaker 2: who they want to be and where they are now.
Speaker 2: And so imagine this going I'm actually that person that
Speaker 2: shows up for myself every day and I do movement
Speaker 2: could be ten minutes at home, it could be an
Speaker 2: hour long gym sash, but every day I am that person.
Speaker 2: Then it becomes a part of their identity and so again,
Speaker 2: when they believe in themselves like that, they they're able
Speaker 2: to do that, and I feel like a lot of
Speaker 2: people aren't.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think I think also being okay with
Speaker 1: fucking up, you know, like so many people that I've
Speaker 1: worked with over the years, they'll say to me something
Speaker 1: like fell off the wagon on the weekend. I'm like,
Speaker 1: what is what? What wagon? What wagon? Is it?
Speaker 2: Fucking up? Though? If there is no wagon, Like I'm
Speaker 2: renowned for going out right on and on a Saturday
Speaker 2: night and having the cock downs and having a late night,
Speaker 2: and then I'm at the gym in the morning. I'm like,
Speaker 2: you know, I've recovered from that, and I don't see
Speaker 2: it this as fucking up. It's probably not the best workout.
Speaker 2: I mean, I would say like eight out of ten
Speaker 2: times it's a pretty weak performance, but I show up,
Speaker 2: and for me, it's like success. That's all I want
Speaker 2: to do. I want to show up for the fun,
Speaker 2: but I also want to show up for the accountability part.
Speaker 2: And then every now and again, I'm actually stronger, probably
Speaker 2: from all the extra food or all the extra things.
Speaker 2: But I think it's people perceiving I've just fucked up.
Speaker 2: I've gone off track, Versus I don't see this getting
Speaker 2: off track. I see it as you know, part of
Speaker 2: a very balanced life is that when you're present and
Speaker 2: you can have fun and you know how to, you know,
Speaker 2: be able to put all that aside. But then when
Speaker 2: it's time to show up for yourself and be disciplined,
Speaker 2: you can do that. So I'm that person at work
Speaker 2: where I've got my little Typeway container and I've got
Speaker 2: my meal prep. But I'm also that person that can
Speaker 2: go to an event and just be present and eat
Speaker 2: whatever's there. Do you see what I mean? And both
Speaker 2: serve a purpose. People aren't good at doing that. They
Speaker 2: kind of see that as contradictory, versus I see it
Speaker 2: is very a walking contradiction. But I see it's very
Speaker 2: in a child healing where we can do both, we
Speaker 2: can be both.
Speaker 1: And I think that's the thing. It's like if what
Speaker 1: I was kind of alluding to is people will eat
Speaker 1: grape for four weeks and then they'll have a tymtam
Speaker 1: or two timtams and they go, oh, fucked it up now,
Speaker 1: and then they go on a six day bender because
Speaker 1: they ate two tymtams. And so it ain't about the Timtams.
Speaker 1: It's about the psychological and emotional reaction to the two
Speaker 1: tympamps because the two Timtams don't fucking matter.
Speaker 2: They don't and like the ability to get back on
Speaker 2: truck as quickly as possible. And that's what I think
Speaker 2: about on the weekend right, a lot of people wipe
Speaker 2: out their weekend versus if you really take it apart,
Speaker 2: Yes you can have an all some night and a
Speaker 2: great night and you can do all the things, but
Speaker 2: then you get back on track the next you know, day,
Speaker 2: or the next even like if you've had a big lunch,
Speaker 2: you could still then you know, be more conscious for dinner. Like,
Speaker 2: I think people write things off too much, and that
Speaker 2: comes down to what I said before, the all or
Speaker 2: nothing mindset, rather than just being a bit more flexible
Speaker 2: with life.
Speaker 1: Trying to manage us. That's the ever present reality. I
Speaker 1: should start a show called the U Project where we
Speaker 1: talk about how we can manage ourselves.
Speaker 2: There's a thought, what a great idea you should get
Speaker 2: onto that, Like asam.
Speaker 1: Now I'm the ideas guy. Hey, your ace, We're going
Speaker 1: to get you back and talk about more things. We
Speaker 1: might need to adjust your speed down to point eight
Speaker 1: zero point eight, just so my sixty year olds can
Speaker 1: keep up with you. But how do people find you, Sam,
Speaker 1: connect with you and potentially do some work with you.
Speaker 1: How to just steer our audience where you want to?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'm mostly active on Instagram, so that's doctor
Speaker 2: Sam Casey. They can find me on my website, which
Speaker 2: is doctor Samcasey dot com. Or I'm on Facebook as well,
Speaker 2: but yeah, Instagram is, I would say, my go to.
Speaker 2: So check me out on.
Speaker 1: Your fun and interesting and clever, and congrats on what
Speaker 1: you're doing. Congrats on you know, leaving school in year
Speaker 1: ten and then doing your PhD and being a mum
Speaker 1: of two I'm sure awesome kids, and just being the
Speaker 1: energetic inspiration. You are high energy. You are high energy.
Speaker 1: And it's eight point thirty as we speak, and I'm like, wow,
Speaker 1: this is a lot, but it's great. It's great.
Speaker 2: Appreciate that I was wondering.
Speaker 1: I was wondering how I was going to be with
Speaker 1: a seven thirty PM podcast. Thank god it was you,
Speaker 1: because you dragged me out of my slumber. We'll say
Speaker 1: goodbye affair. We'll say goodbye affair. But Sam, thanks so
Speaker 1: much for your time.
Speaker 2: Thanks so much, Craig appreciate it.