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Speaker 1: Apoche production.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shann. I'm your host,

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Speaker 2: Adam Shand Somewhere right now across Australia, a crisis is unfolding.

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Speaker 2: It may be a siege, hostage drama, domestic violence incident,

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Speaker 2: person experiencing a mental health episode, or someone threatening to

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Speaker 2: take their own life. It may just be someone who's

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Speaker 2: reached the end of their tether and needs to be

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Speaker 2: listened to.

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Speaker 3: When the cops are called to a crisis, the negotiators

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Speaker 3: coordinate the car.

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Speaker 2: In each of these scenarios, a police negotiator will be

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Speaker 2: on the scene trying to move that person in crisis

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Speaker 2: from no to yes, to help them re engage their

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Speaker 2: rational thought process, to de escalate the situation, and to

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Speaker 2: give them another way out when all seems hopeless.

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Speaker 3: In the last twelve months, police negotiators from the Critical

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Speaker 3: Incident Response Team have been called to more than seven

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Speaker 3: hundred jobs.

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Speaker 2: Most of these jobs you will never hear about. Some, sadly,

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Speaker 2: you hear about when negotiations break down or when force

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Speaker 2: is required to ensure public safety. At the Sydney siege

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Speaker 2: in quest today, negotiators described the immense pressure when talks

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Speaker 2: broke down, But the vast majority of these scenes are

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Speaker 2: peacefully resolved and everyone gets to go home because of

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Speaker 2: the skills and the experience of the negotiator.

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Speaker 3: It's a delicate balance of empathy and strategy, proving power

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Speaker 3: lies in peaceful speech.

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Speaker 2: Today, it's my pleasure to speak to one of Australia's

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Speaker 2: most experienced police negotiators, leading Senior Constable Lee Wallahan of

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Speaker 2: Victoria Police. Lee is a specialist and is passing on

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Speaker 2: his skills to rank and file police who are the

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Speaker 2: first responders in these challenging moments. Thanks for chatting today, Lee,

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me I for sire, it absolute pleasure. Mate.

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Speaker 2: Tell me what makes a good negotiator.

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Speaker 1: Probably the thing that makes negotiator successful is I'll start

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Speaker 1: with one of our students who's now graduated from the

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Speaker 1: most recent course. His name is Jake. Jake is kind,

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Speaker 1: he's professional, he's interesting, he's interested, he's a good communicator.

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Speaker 1: He's a worldly person despite his young age, and he

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Speaker 1: is able to make decisions under immense pressure and make

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Speaker 1: good decisions and back those decisions up with sound reasoning.

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Speaker 1: But it's probably better if I tell you what negotiator

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Speaker 1: is not a negotiator is not a psychologist. They're not

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Speaker 1: a guidance counselor. They're not a marriage counselor. They're not

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Speaker 1: a real estate agent. They're not an employment specialist. And

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Speaker 1: sometimes that's what people think a negotiator needs to be,

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Speaker 1: is someone who can talk that person through their issues

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Speaker 1: and through their problems. But when that person's in crisis,

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Speaker 1: and that person's got leverage and we'll talk about that later,

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Speaker 1: that person doesn't need counseling and psychology because it's not

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Speaker 1: the time. If you were to take a psychologist and

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Speaker 1: bring them to a siege situation, they take one look

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Speaker 1: at the person in crisis and say, this isn't the time.

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Speaker 1: They need a police officer. And what we are is

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Speaker 1: simply police officers with specialized skill set like Jake and

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Speaker 1: the world leading team that am part of. They possess

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Speaker 1: all of those skills in man man anymore.

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Speaker 2: But you've chosen to specialize in this. Over the years,

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Speaker 2: I guess people have gone through this sort of a

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Speaker 2: role and they've gone to other jobs. You've chosen to specialize.

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Speaker 2: Why is that.

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Speaker 1: The first experience I had with a police negotiator, I

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Speaker 1: was a young constable working in Fitzroy. It was two

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Speaker 1: thousand and two. I think petrol was about sixty cents

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Speaker 1: a lead. It was a different time and so we

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Speaker 1: didn't have a lot of the different levels of supervision

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Speaker 1: and support that we do today. And the job that

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Speaker 1: we had was a job in a small flat a

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Speaker 1: young man who was armed with a knife. We got

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Speaker 1: there on scene and without any backup, we went into

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Speaker 1: the apartment and I could hear distress from the other

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Speaker 1: side of the door. I always cautioned my students that

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Speaker 1: you don't rise to the occasion, you fall to the

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Speaker 1: lowest and best level of training that you have, and

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Speaker 1: that's what happened. I tried to kick in the door

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Speaker 1: and my foot went straight through it, and then my

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Speaker 1: partner then over the next minute or so, I had

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Speaker 1: to try and pull my leg out of the door,

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Speaker 1: and so the element of surprise was gone. I went

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Speaker 1: in and saw something and I'll never forget, which was

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Speaker 1: a young male with a knife to his throat. He

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Speaker 1: was naked and he was clearly in distress. And so

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Speaker 1: I fell to the lowest level of training I had,

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Speaker 1: which was I pulled out my weapon. My service pistol

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Speaker 1: was a smith and Western k frame revolver at the time,

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Speaker 1: because in my training, knife equals gone, and I didn't

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Speaker 1: think about the nuance of the situation and what that

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Speaker 1: person might actually be experiencing. I pulled out the revolver,

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Speaker 1: I pointed at him, and I just started shouting. After

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Speaker 1: a while, a tactical team arrived, and then they said

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Speaker 1: the negotiator was coming. And the whole time I just

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Speaker 1: kept shouting the police chawler and dropped the knife, dropped

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Speaker 1: the knife, and that wasn't working clearly. Soon after that,

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Speaker 1: a police negotiator turned up and the attack team we're

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Speaker 1: very respectful of him. They moved to the side. He

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Speaker 1: moved forward and I could hear him in a calm

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Speaker 1: and a slow voice. He said, look at him, he's terrified.

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Speaker 1: And I nodded, and my gun was shaking, and then

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Speaker 1: I felt the calm hand over the top of my

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Speaker 1: revolver and he lowered it and he said, I'm not

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Speaker 1: talking about him, I'm talking about you, mate. It's okay

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Speaker 1: to be scared. This is a scary day. It's not

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Speaker 1: a normal day for him, and it's not a normal

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Speaker 1: day for you. So I want everyone to take a

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Speaker 1: breath and take two steps back. Within ten minutes, he

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Speaker 1: had that person in a different state of mind and

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Speaker 1: the leverage was then easily and respectfully given to that

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Speaker 1: police negotiating And that was a moment in my mind

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Speaker 1: where I said, this is fascinating, this is something that

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Speaker 1: I aspire to. That was the start of my journey

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Speaker 1: towards becoming a police negotiator. But in Victoria we are

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Speaker 1: very different. We're not like other negotiating units. We're embedded

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Speaker 1: in the tactical team and we are where we have

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Speaker 1: all the same skill set, we have the same equipment,

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Speaker 1: and we have the same training. That makes us very

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Speaker 1: different from negotiating's pretty much around the world. Benefit of

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Speaker 1: that is that instead of being on a phone one

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Speaker 1: hundred meters away at a command post, you're front and

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Speaker 1: center making eye contact with the person who has the leverage,

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Speaker 1: whether that's on a ledge or with a person that

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Speaker 1: they've kidnapped, or a hostage situation or even a counter

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Speaker 1: terrorism event. And so because of that, as you and

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Speaker 1: I are sitting opposite each other here, I get to

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Speaker 1: see the blink rate, perspiration, what the hands are doing.

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Speaker 1: Is there any cognitive dissonance, Is there any difference between

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Speaker 1: what I'm seeing and what they're saying, and you get

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Speaker 1: to subconsciously take in that information and process it in

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Speaker 1: real time when you are face to face with someone.

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Speaker 1: And that's one of the big benefits that we have

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Speaker 1: in Victoria is we have negotiators who are part of

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Speaker 1: that tactical team. I'm absolutely thrilled to be part of it.

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Speaker 2: I know you're a disciple of eck car Toll The

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Speaker 2: Power of Now, and he talks about alert stillness being

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Speaker 2: rather than doing being in those moments. How does that

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Speaker 2: plan into these situations when you are so close to

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Speaker 2: someone who may harm themselves, you, somebody else. How do

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Speaker 2: you keep in mind in that alert stillness that you need.

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Speaker 1: I please you ask that question, because my wife asked

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Speaker 1: it to me today. She said, I know the sort

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Speaker 1: of work you do, and I know the calmness that

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Speaker 1: you bring to a chaotic situation. But I just watch

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Speaker 1: you roll up a garden hose and lose your blob.

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Speaker 1: So there is something with you that is different to

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Speaker 1: a lot of people, and I cherish that. And I

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Speaker 1: think most of the negotiated team are a cut from

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Speaker 1: a similar cloth. And we always say to each other,

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Speaker 1: move slowly, be the slowest person in the room, because

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Speaker 1: if you go into a room and you try to

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Speaker 1: exert confidence and confidence and you try and show everyone

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Speaker 1: how big and how important you are, it has the

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Speaker 1: opposite effect because your brain is making ninety thousand plus

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Speaker 1: decisions every day and they're subconscious. And so what we

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Speaker 1: try and do when we get out on scene is

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Speaker 1: we try and move slowly. We speak softly, and that's

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Speaker 1: something that as a father I use with my children.

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Speaker 1: Speak softly, you will bring a calmness to a chaotic situation.

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Speaker 2: Does that work at home?

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Speaker 1: I'm working on it. My father always said to me

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Speaker 1: that if you don't look back at the younger version

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Speaker 1: of yourself and think that you used to be an idiot,

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Speaker 1: then chances are you still are. So I'm working on

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Speaker 1: being a father, I'm working on being a police communicator

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Speaker 1: and a specialist. But I'm always saying to myself and

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Speaker 1: people that I work with, We're always saying we're not

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Speaker 1: good enough. We need to be better, and we need

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Speaker 1: to be learning more, and we need to be evolving.

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Speaker 1: And I think the day you say I've learned it

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Speaker 1: all and seen it all and done it all is

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Speaker 1: probably the time that you're fooling yourself or you need

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Speaker 1: to write encyclopedia.

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Speaker 2: Because this job is a leveler. You can have success

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Speaker 2: one day and the following day can be a horrible

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Speaker 2: failure and you can go away with a terrible memory,

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Speaker 2: a terrible trauma for everyone involved. And it's relentless too.

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Speaker 2: I mean, people have no idea how many jobs the

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Speaker 2: negotiators do. What's your routine schedule of your roster like,

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Speaker 2: so we.

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Speaker 1: Work a day, afternoon, and night shift, and so we

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Speaker 1: have a twenty four hour coverage. We've got a base

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Speaker 1: of eighteen negotiators, which is not many when you consider

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Speaker 1: the size of Victoria. We cover the whole state. There's

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Speaker 1: no regional negotiators, so we don't have negotiators in country spots.

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Speaker 1: It's us. And so when you go to a deployment

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Speaker 1: sometimes that can mean that everyone has to go without

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Speaker 1: so it means you can't go to everything. We have

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Speaker 1: a saying the negotiators sell that you can do anything

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Speaker 1: in a negotiation, but you can't do everything. And it's

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Speaker 1: the same thing with Victoria. We have to say no

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Speaker 1: sometimes to people. We have to say no, you've got this,

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Speaker 1: it's in your wheelhouse. Keep at it. And so to

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Speaker 1: your point, I have had what some would call failures,

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Speaker 1: and part of my evolution as a human being is

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Speaker 1: to learn that the process is what matters, not the outcome.

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Speaker 1: If we're outcome driven, and if we're caring constantly about

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Speaker 1: what the end state of a negotiation is is, we're

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Speaker 1: setting ourself up for a failure. I should say, and

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Speaker 1: I remember, I had a death that happened. Someone either

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Speaker 1: ended their life in front of me, or it was

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Speaker 1: death by MISSI adventure. We still don't know, but that

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Speaker 1: person died and I was the negotiator, talking to him

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Speaker 1: the whole time, and I saw it happen. And when

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Speaker 1: I came home, I was exhausted. I'd done a fourteen

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Speaker 1: hour shift. There's a lot of scrutiny that is attached

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Speaker 1: to this level of policing, and there should be. And

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Speaker 1: so when I had fulfilled all my obligations and the

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Speaker 1: scrutiniers had established that we had acted within the self test,

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Speaker 1: which is scrutiny, ethical, lawful, and fair, then I went

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Speaker 1: home and I was tired, but I was wired. And

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Speaker 1: I was sitting out on the deck with my then

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Speaker 1: seven year old daughter, and she said to me, and

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Speaker 1: I'll never forget it. Mummy said that something bad happened

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Speaker 1: at work today and I said, yeah, it did. And

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Speaker 1: she said, is the man okay? And I said no,

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Speaker 1: he's not. And she said did you talk to his mum?

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Speaker 1: And that I actually had before we started engaging with

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Speaker 1: this person, and I said yeah, and she goes, what

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Speaker 1: did you say to his mother? And I said I

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Speaker 1: told her we'd look after a boy. That's what I

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Speaker 1: said to her. And then she said to me, well,

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Speaker 1: that didn't happen, though I did it. And I said no, no,

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Speaker 1: I didn't. And she said is the mum sad? And

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Speaker 1: I said yeah, yeah she is. She's very sad. And

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Speaker 1: she said are you And I burst into tears and

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Speaker 1: I said, yeah, I am sad. And that for me

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Speaker 1: as part of the process. If you go home after

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Speaker 1: something like that and you don't let that emotion out

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Speaker 1: and you bottle it up or you disguise it with

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Speaker 1: something else, you are kicking that can down the road.

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Speaker 1: And so to speak, on the survivability of being a

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Speaker 1: negotiator for fourteen years, it is that vulnerability, being able

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Speaker 1: to say that I am having a human reaction from

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Speaker 1: something that is personal and it is emotional and there

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Speaker 1: was a sadness attached to it. What is absolutely unacceptable

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Speaker 1: is for me to start blaming myself or taking that

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Speaker 1: person's life as if it is my responsibility, because it's not.

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Speaker 1: And I say that's my students. I say it to

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Speaker 1: the police officers every day that you cannot operate with

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Speaker 1: the fear that that person's life is in your hands,

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Speaker 1: because it isn't. What is in your hands is the process,

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Speaker 1: your training, and the decisions that you make. And so

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Speaker 1: I've learned that by doing more than eight hundred critical

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Speaker 1: incidents in my career, where the process is what we

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Speaker 1: work towards. Yes, that person deserves our best, but we

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Speaker 1: are not at our best if we're operating on fear,

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Speaker 1: if we're operating on obligation, or if we're operating on guilt.

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Speaker 1: Whenever we go and do our communications.

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Speaker 2: And equally, if you do save somebody or it's a

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Speaker 2: positive outcome, the tendency would be to accept the term hero.

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Speaker 2: That's also double ed sword, isn't it absolutely?

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Speaker 1: And I don't subscribe to that at all. I get

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Speaker 1: paid to do a job. I volunteer to do this job,

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Speaker 1: and it comes with consequences and if your ego gets

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Speaker 1: in the way and you start thinking that this is

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Speaker 1: your success, and then that's a folly. Because I work

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Speaker 1: with a world leading team at critical incident response, the

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Speaker 1: men and women there are I'm so proud of them,

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Speaker 1: But what I'm most proud is not the outcome, but

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Speaker 1: the processes that they follow every day, the training that

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Speaker 1: they have, and the professionalism that they conduct themselves with.

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Speaker 2: One of my favorite stories that you've told me in

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Speaker 2: the past occurred on the Bolty Bridge. Was a double

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Speaker 2: negotiation in a sense, I think that story really encapsulates

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Speaker 2: a lot of what you're talking about. You want to

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Speaker 2: take us through that.

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Speaker 1: It was a late night on a Saturday night and

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Speaker 1: we had the call out to go to the Bolty Bridge.

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Speaker 1: Back then, they didn't have the defensive barriers that prevented

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Speaker 1: people from scaling them, and there was a guy sitting

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Speaker 1: on the ledge. We didn't know who he was, which

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Speaker 1: is unusual. Usually we had to do some background checks

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Speaker 1: or we get to establish this person's identity and start

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Speaker 1: to get a feel of our strategy moving into this negotiation.

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Speaker 1: The traffic was still going was quite heavy. We moved

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Speaker 1: into position and approached him. I just want to touch

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Speaker 1: on a leverage first, because I think it's important that

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Speaker 1: people understand our relationship with leverage. Leverage is what's stopping

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Speaker 1: you from doing your job, either taking a person into

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Speaker 1: custody or preventing a suicide, or arresting a person for

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Speaker 1: a crime. If that person has leverage that prevents you

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Speaker 1: from doing that. That's why we get called because they

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Speaker 1: have leverage. If we focus on the leverage, then that

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Speaker 1: person then feels that that leverage holds way more value

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Speaker 1: than they did before. And unfortunately, because we get called

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Speaker 1: because police before us have been unsuccessful. We don't get

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Speaker 1: called by a triple zero. We get called by other

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Speaker 1: police units. So when we get there, oftentimes the police

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Speaker 1: are focusing on the leverage. Drop the knife, come down

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Speaker 1: from the ledge, let that person go, don't hurt anyone.

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Speaker 1: And so unfortunately, what that does is it's kind of

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Speaker 1: like a dog with a tennis ball. If you show

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Speaker 1: that beautiful animal that you want that tennis ball, you

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Speaker 1: know it's over before it's even begun. And so there's

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Speaker 1: a freedom to that that we have in the legs

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Speaker 1: that I would like every police officer to learn about.

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Speaker 1: And a person in Victoria and Australia is if you

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Speaker 1: focus on the leverage, you'll push that person towards it.

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Speaker 1: You can't let the fear of what they might do

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Speaker 1: with that leverage cloud your decision making. So we started

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Speaker 1: engaging with him. I was working with a guy called

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Speaker 1: Ben Fantastic Negotiator, and we were both engaging with this

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Speaker 1: mail and he kept trying to dictate the terms of

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Speaker 1: where we were and weren't able to stand and that's

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Speaker 1: quite common. It's a person who is in a crisis

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Speaker 1: point trying to reach out for some sense of control.

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Speaker 1: Eventually we had to shut down the bolty because buses

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Speaker 1: full of Bucks parties were going past saying jump. And

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Speaker 1: you know, very very harden to hear that kind things.

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Speaker 1: You hear that sort of stuff a lot, and it's disappointing.

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Speaker 1: But if I'm being honest, I had a similar incident

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Speaker 1: on a ledge above a train station and there was

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Speaker 1: hundreds of people just standing watching and one or two

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Speaker 1: people said jump. But when this guy, after hours and

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Speaker 1: hours of negotiation, came down in the cherry Picka, they

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Speaker 1: opened up the doors and the fire it fighters led

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Speaker 1: him out. Everyone heared hundreds and hundreds of people and

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Speaker 1: patted him on the back and clapped him on the back.

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Speaker 1: And so the humanity that I see victorians have, I'm

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Speaker 1: reminded of it every day that more often than not

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Speaker 1: people are kind, and more often than not people say things.

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Speaker 1: And it's like saying something on the internet that it's gone,

321
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Speaker 1: but you can't take it back. You just said it,

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Speaker 1: and you probably didn't understand the consequences of that. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: that sort of stuff was going on a little bit.

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Speaker 2: But set the scene here because I think I've undersold

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Speaker 2: the atmosphere where he was, what he was doing the moment.

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Speaker 2: It was quite something, and he was laboring under a

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Speaker 2: misapprehension that his life had gone to a place where

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Speaker 2: there was no return from.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so there was information that we didn't know at

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Speaker 1: the time which was very significant in relation to what

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Speaker 1: his motivation was. And I'll tell you that at the

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Speaker 1: time when I found it out, But at the time

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Speaker 1: we just thought it was, for want of a better term,

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Speaker 1: someone who was at in crisis and wanted to end

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Speaker 1: their own life. He was standing on the decline slope

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Speaker 1: of the bridge, which just is a drop into probably

337
00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:07,561
Speaker 1: undred and fifty feet into water, at that height is

338
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Speaker 1: like concrete. And he was standing on that leaning out

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Speaker 1: with his belt tied around a light post. The tiny

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Speaker 1: piece of leather was the only thing holding him up

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Speaker 1: over that abyss.

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Speaker 2: And the winds blowing, and can feel the bridge moving.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, I didn't realize that, but the bridge does move,

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Speaker 1: and it's meant to move. But it is really disconcerting

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Speaker 1: when that, you know, thousands of tons of concrete and

346
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Speaker 1: steel moving underneath you. And I thought stopping the traffic

347
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Speaker 1: would make it less eerie and more safe, but it

348
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Speaker 1: made it feel even more. You feel alone because we

349
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Speaker 1: don't want to stimulate someone or over stimulate them, I

350
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Speaker 1: should say. So it was suddenly now Ben and I

351
00:17:45,441 --> 00:17:47,721
Speaker 1: alone on the bridge with this guy. And because we

352
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Speaker 1: had given an assessment, we'd made a decision. This is

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Speaker 1: a negotiation we will take as long as it takes.

354
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Speaker 1: And there is no opportunity here, nor do we want

355
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Speaker 1: to put ourselves at risk of grabbing this person. So

356
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Speaker 1: everyone else moved back, so then we didn't have any backup.

357
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Speaker 1: He was angry, he was emotional, knowing now what I do.

358
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Speaker 1: He was antisocial. He started to link out bits of

359
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Speaker 1: information to us, and we started to enter into the

360
00:18:13,921 --> 00:18:17,240
Speaker 1: basis of the negotiation where the dialogue happens. And we

361
00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:19,441
Speaker 1: found out and it was a shock when we did

362
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Speaker 1: that he had stabbed his girlfriend and thrown her out

363
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Speaker 1: of a moving vehicle because he thought we knew that information.

364
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Speaker 1: And the moment he said it, I felt Ben grabbed

365
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Speaker 1: my arm and let's push back a little bit, because

366
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Speaker 1: this is now not suicide intervention. This is now someone

367
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Speaker 1: who was trying to not face up to a crime

368
00:18:40,001 --> 00:18:44,160
Speaker 1: that has been committed, a significant crime, and so we

369
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Speaker 1: now found ourselves in a position where he might be armed.

370
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Speaker 1: He had a knife before he stabbed somebody. This is

371
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Speaker 1: now a secondary crime scene. This is starting to become

372
00:18:52,961 --> 00:18:56,680
Speaker 1: beyond our span of control. And I was writing notes

373
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Speaker 1: that He turned around and said, what are you writing

374
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Speaker 1: in that day book? And we said, it's just notes.

375
00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:03,720
Speaker 1: We write notes about everything, mate, and he said, give

376
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Speaker 1: me that. Give me then. Now. I made a mistake

377
00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:11,960
Speaker 1: back then, because I would not do that today. And

378
00:19:12,521 --> 00:19:15,561
Speaker 1: someone might say, well, is a twenty cent book worth

379
00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:18,321
Speaker 1: someone's life. That's not the way it works, because that's

380
00:19:18,360 --> 00:19:23,521
Speaker 1: operating under fear, and that's operating where you're afraid of consequences.

381
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Speaker 1: But he gets to make decisions, and we get to

382
00:19:25,921 --> 00:19:30,120
Speaker 1: make decisions. And so I made a decision and I

383
00:19:30,201 --> 00:19:32,920
Speaker 1: gave him the day book. He started writing something in

384
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Speaker 1: the day book and I only found out later what

385
00:19:35,201 --> 00:19:37,281
Speaker 1: it was. At the time, I thought it was a

386
00:19:37,321 --> 00:19:40,321
Speaker 1: suicide note, where I thought, I've made a mistake here.

387
00:19:40,360 --> 00:19:43,840
Speaker 1: I've given him an opportunity to put his last thoughts

388
00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:47,840
Speaker 1: onto there. I then started running out of ideas, and

389
00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:50,041
Speaker 1: that can happen in a negotiation, and that's why we

390
00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:53,681
Speaker 1: operate in pairs. I looked down at the ledge and

391
00:19:53,801 --> 00:19:56,201
Speaker 1: I said, oh, you might not kill yourself. You might

392
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Speaker 1: not die.

393
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Speaker 2: Volllybridge is not that high.

394
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Speaker 1: People have sur by falls.

395
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Speaker 2: Yeah.

396
00:20:00,360 --> 00:20:02,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, We've had some people that I've even spoken to

397
00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:05,281
Speaker 1: after the fact who have gone off the Boulty Bridge

398
00:20:05,321 --> 00:20:07,761
Speaker 1: and survived and been able to tell their story. So

399
00:20:07,761 --> 00:20:10,761
Speaker 1: I utilized that information and I said, this might put

400
00:20:10,801 --> 00:20:13,001
Speaker 1: you in a wheelchair, or he might have significant injuries.

401
00:20:13,001 --> 00:20:15,240
Speaker 1: He might not die. And he looked down and I

402
00:20:15,241 --> 00:20:19,281
Speaker 1: could see him processing it, and the younger, stupid me thought,

403
00:20:19,281 --> 00:20:21,840
Speaker 1: while I'm making progress here, and I moved towards him.

404
00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:24,480
Speaker 1: He said, so, you don't think I'll die? And I said, no,

405
00:20:24,801 --> 00:20:27,880
Speaker 1: I think he might not. And then as I was

406
00:20:27,921 --> 00:20:30,200
Speaker 1: coming up to him, he looked like he was moving

407
00:20:30,281 --> 00:20:33,160
Speaker 1: back to my side, and he did, and then he

408
00:20:33,201 --> 00:20:35,360
Speaker 1: pulled a knife from his right pocket and then he

409
00:20:35,360 --> 00:20:36,600
Speaker 1: held it up and said, well, now you're going to

410
00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:39,001
Speaker 1: have to shoot me, and he started moving towards Ben

411
00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:41,360
Speaker 1: and I and Ben pulled out his firearm. I pulled

412
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,640
Speaker 1: out my taser, and we nearly ended up in a

413
00:20:44,681 --> 00:20:46,881
Speaker 1: position of where we had a police shooting with very

414
00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:49,160
Speaker 1: little backup on the top of the bolty bridge in

415
00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:51,641
Speaker 1: the middle of the CBD. So we backed up and

416
00:20:52,281 --> 00:20:55,241
Speaker 1: very very calmly, because you fall to the lowest level

417
00:20:55,241 --> 00:20:57,120
Speaker 1: of training that you have, and the level of training

418
00:20:57,120 --> 00:21:00,681
Speaker 1: that we have at CERT is very good. We were

419
00:21:00,721 --> 00:21:03,881
Speaker 1: able to then switch into a tactical mode where we

420
00:21:04,120 --> 00:21:06,921
Speaker 1: got inside we called the Udu loup, and the loop

421
00:21:07,041 --> 00:21:10,640
Speaker 1: is observe, orientate yourself, decide on what you're going to do,

422
00:21:10,721 --> 00:21:13,041
Speaker 1: and then act. And so we moved into into a

423
00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:17,041
Speaker 1: position where we interrupted his udul loop. So he has

424
00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:19,561
Speaker 1: an ability to observe, orient aside and act, and so

425
00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:22,240
Speaker 1: we interrupted that by giving him too many things to

426
00:21:22,281 --> 00:21:25,640
Speaker 1: worry about all at once. He realized that he was

427
00:21:25,681 --> 00:21:27,400
Speaker 1: beaten in that moment, so he went back to the

428
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,240
Speaker 1: bridge again and kept the knife in his pocket. And

429
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Speaker 1: it was at that moment that the strangest thing happened.

430
00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:36,120
Speaker 1: A vehicle comes up on the other side of the

431
00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:39,161
Speaker 1: empty road and stops at the top of the apex

432
00:21:39,201 --> 00:21:41,441
Speaker 1: of the bridge, and a young girl with blonde hair

433
00:21:41,521 --> 00:21:45,440
Speaker 1: gets out, and I'm looking over, thinking, this can't be serious.

434
00:21:45,721 --> 00:21:48,401
Speaker 1: What is happening. There is a police blockade down there.

435
00:21:48,521 --> 00:21:51,561
Speaker 1: She's just driven through. I didn't know. And suddenly she

436
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:56,041
Speaker 1: got inside my udeloup. So I looked out, and she

437
00:21:56,321 --> 00:21:58,480
Speaker 1: gets out of her car and she looked and then

438
00:21:58,521 --> 00:22:00,321
Speaker 1: I realized when I saw her face, I've seen that

439
00:22:00,360 --> 00:22:05,761
Speaker 1: face before, that stoic, very vacant stare of someone who

440
00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:08,160
Speaker 1: was in crisis. And then I went, oh, oh no.

441
00:22:08,761 --> 00:22:10,801
Speaker 1: And she got up and stood on the opposite side

442
00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:14,321
Speaker 1: of the bridge and poised in position, ready to jump,

443
00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:17,801
Speaker 1: And it was just it was totally unrelated. But she

444
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,801
Speaker 1: saw an opportunity and moved into that position. And I

445
00:22:21,041 --> 00:22:23,480
Speaker 1: like to think that she saw an opportunity where there

446
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:25,880
Speaker 1: was someone already up there trying to negotiate, and maybe

447
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:28,400
Speaker 1: that person might be able to help her one of

448
00:22:28,441 --> 00:22:30,801
Speaker 1: the police sergeants from the city said, oh, can one

449
00:22:30,801 --> 00:22:32,960
Speaker 1: of you guys just jump across and just jump across

450
00:22:32,961 --> 00:22:35,840
Speaker 1: in and help her out. Now, the distance is about

451
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:37,840
Speaker 1: the distance between you and I at this desk today.

452
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:39,480
Speaker 1: It's only about a meter and a bit and I

453
00:22:39,481 --> 00:22:42,321
Speaker 1: would happily jump that, but not at one hundred and

454
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,400
Speaker 1: fifty feet off the ground. So we called in some

455
00:22:45,441 --> 00:22:48,441
Speaker 1: other negotiators and they came in and took over from

456
00:22:48,521 --> 00:22:51,440
Speaker 1: that situation. But it was bonkers, to say the least,

457
00:22:51,441 --> 00:22:53,121
Speaker 1: that we've got two of those at the same time

458
00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:56,641
Speaker 1: in the same place in Victoria. So we went through

459
00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:59,681
Speaker 1: the process, we went through our training, and we went

460
00:22:59,761 --> 00:23:04,561
Speaker 1: through a good strategy, which was that almost to allow

461
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,001
Speaker 1: this person to make his own decisions. How you feel

462
00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:10,640
Speaker 1: in this moment with whatever's happened with your girlfriend. That's

463
00:23:10,761 --> 00:23:14,521
Speaker 1: occupying your mind, and that's understandable. But what you're doing

464
00:23:14,521 --> 00:23:16,761
Speaker 1: with those emotions is not healthy and it's not okay.

465
00:23:16,801 --> 00:23:20,881
Speaker 1: It's not acceptable. So if you want to throw yourself

466
00:23:20,921 --> 00:23:23,120
Speaker 1: from this bridge, we are not going to stop you,

467
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:25,921
Speaker 1: and that is your decision. And that's a very difficult

468
00:23:25,961 --> 00:23:28,720
Speaker 1: thing to say to someone because you're giving them permission

469
00:23:29,321 --> 00:23:30,680
Speaker 1: and I said to him at the time, and I

470
00:23:31,201 --> 00:23:33,640
Speaker 1: said this three days ago to someone, it is not

471
00:23:33,721 --> 00:23:36,801
Speaker 1: a crime to end your own life. It is sad

472
00:23:36,921 --> 00:23:41,440
Speaker 1: and it has loss and has consequences. But saying that

473
00:23:41,481 --> 00:23:43,920
Speaker 1: to him it almost put a full stop at the

474
00:23:43,961 --> 00:23:47,200
Speaker 1: end of it, and his behavior changed. And so eventually

475
00:23:47,321 --> 00:23:50,281
Speaker 1: we went through the process and he surrendered to Ben

476
00:23:50,321 --> 00:23:53,120
Speaker 1: and I. We took him into custody and he moved

477
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:55,561
Speaker 1: on to the rest of his life to face the

478
00:23:55,561 --> 00:24:00,120
Speaker 1: consequences of that action. But eight hundred and fifty odd

479
00:24:00,201 --> 00:24:02,761
Speaker 1: jobs like that, you make mistakes and you learn from it.

480
00:24:02,801 --> 00:24:04,521
Speaker 1: And I remember as he left, I picked up the

481
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 1: day book and I opened it up, and instead of

482
00:24:07,120 --> 00:24:11,161
Speaker 1: a suicide note, it said I'm cold, I'm tired, I'm

483
00:24:11,201 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 1: in a lot of trouble, and I've got to listen

484
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,321
Speaker 1: to this fuck with talk on and on and on

485
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,521
Speaker 1: and on. I'm starting to get bored. And so sometimes

486
00:24:19,561 --> 00:24:22,120
Speaker 1: your hypothesis is right that this is not a suicide

487
00:24:22,321 --> 00:24:26,481
Speaker 1: atteam to this is someone looking for options. And when

488
00:24:26,521 --> 00:24:28,680
Speaker 1: your brain is in crisis, and I can talk about

489
00:24:28,681 --> 00:24:31,640
Speaker 1: brain states all day, but when your brain is in

490
00:24:31,681 --> 00:24:34,400
Speaker 1: the limbic system, which is where the emotions come from.

491
00:24:35,001 --> 00:24:38,161
Speaker 1: You don't make good informed decisions, you don't make good

492
00:24:38,201 --> 00:24:41,960
Speaker 1: informed communications. Almost every bit of your decision making comes

493
00:24:42,001 --> 00:24:46,801
Speaker 1: from the desire to connect. It's your emotions. And so

494
00:24:46,921 --> 00:24:49,240
Speaker 1: I've over the years and since that job, and that

495
00:24:49,321 --> 00:24:51,400
Speaker 1: was more than eight years ago, I've learned how to

496
00:24:51,441 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 1: recognize brain states when I'm working at a negotiation and

497
00:24:56,281 --> 00:24:59,721
Speaker 1: I'm always trying to learn and test those hypotheses that

498
00:24:59,761 --> 00:25:00,561
Speaker 1: you get with people.

499
00:25:01,761 --> 00:25:06,440
Speaker 2: Typically one of the most challenging jobs you find negotiat when.

500
00:25:06,321 --> 00:25:09,880
Speaker 1: You're dealing with someone who is antisocial. So you're dealing

501
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,400
Speaker 1: with someone whose brain is online. So when you and

502
00:25:12,481 --> 00:25:14,200
Speaker 1: I right now are using the core tex part of

503
00:25:14,241 --> 00:25:16,801
Speaker 1: our brain, So that is the most evolved part of

504
00:25:16,801 --> 00:25:19,120
Speaker 1: our brain. That's where you find motor skills come from.

505
00:25:19,201 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 1: It's where your ability to communicate, your ability to make

506
00:25:23,360 --> 00:25:26,281
Speaker 1: informed decisions, that's where that comes from. If we put

507
00:25:26,321 --> 00:25:28,361
Speaker 1: more and more stress on people, they go into the

508
00:25:28,441 --> 00:25:30,640
Speaker 1: limbic system, which I talked about, and then even more

509
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:32,921
Speaker 1: stress you go into the brain stand which is fire

510
00:25:32,961 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 1: flight and freeze. But if you get someone who's not

511
00:25:36,241 --> 00:25:39,120
Speaker 1: in crisis, but they've got leverage, so they've got something

512
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,721
Speaker 1: that can either hurt you or hurt themselves. But they're

513
00:25:41,721 --> 00:25:43,481
Speaker 1: not doing it because they're emotional. They're doing it because

514
00:25:43,481 --> 00:25:47,120
Speaker 1: they're looking to extract an opportunity out of the situation.

515
00:25:47,481 --> 00:25:50,161
Speaker 1: You know, think someone with a hostage or someone who

516
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,561
Speaker 1: is even saying a terror event. Their brain is online

517
00:25:53,561 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 1: and they're making rational, informed decisions and they're deciding that

518
00:25:56,761 --> 00:25:59,121
Speaker 1: they can outwit you. That can be the most difficult

519
00:25:59,241 --> 00:26:01,281
Speaker 1: thing to do. And I'll give you a very quick example.

520
00:26:01,321 --> 00:26:04,161
Speaker 1: I was at the Commission Flats in the city. There

521
00:26:04,201 --> 00:26:07,680
Speaker 1: was an aggravated so someone had broken into someone else's flat.

522
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 1: They were trashing it up, and I remember when we

523
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,200
Speaker 1: finally got in there, he had drawn swastikas on the

524
00:26:13,241 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 1: wall and it was a horrible scene. But he was

525
00:26:15,921 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 1: trying to outwit us the entire time. So everything we

526
00:26:19,120 --> 00:26:22,200
Speaker 1: said he had an answer for. Everything we offered he

527
00:26:22,281 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 1: had a response to. And so he tricked me, and

528
00:26:25,681 --> 00:26:27,801
Speaker 1: I remember and it nearly cost me my life. He

529
00:26:27,921 --> 00:26:29,801
Speaker 1: was screaming and yelling, and all of a sudden, he

530
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,961
Speaker 1: started to whisper. And when someone starts to whisper, your

531
00:26:34,001 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 1: brain is naturally evolved to attached to that frequency because

532
00:26:37,721 --> 00:26:40,721
Speaker 1: you're hearing something that is either forbidden something that is

533
00:26:40,921 --> 00:26:43,001
Speaker 1: different from the norm and something you want, you want

534
00:26:43,001 --> 00:26:45,441
Speaker 1: to pay attention to. And so he started to whisper,

535
00:26:45,521 --> 00:26:48,161
Speaker 1: and I leaned up against the door and I put

536
00:26:48,201 --> 00:26:51,841
Speaker 1: my ear right up. And then I heard a battery

537
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,160
Speaker 1: powered circular saw fire up and he shot it through

538
00:26:55,241 --> 00:26:57,521
Speaker 1: the door, and it had cut a bit of my hair,

539
00:26:57,921 --> 00:27:00,201
Speaker 1: and he drove it straight down where my face had

540
00:27:00,241 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 1: been just moments before. So I made a mistake. And

541
00:27:03,281 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 1: I've always found there are people like that that they

542
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:09,241
Speaker 1: will goad you into a sense of comfort or I've

543
00:27:09,241 --> 00:27:11,360
Speaker 1: got something that you want, and then if you get

544
00:27:11,441 --> 00:27:14,360
Speaker 1: too close, suddenly they might lash out or throw something

545
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:16,400
Speaker 1: at you, or in some cases, which just happened to

546
00:27:16,441 --> 00:27:19,761
Speaker 1: some of our negotiators, they've been shot at. So they're

547
00:27:19,801 --> 00:27:22,200
Speaker 1: the tricky ones. If I've answered your question at the

548
00:27:22,281 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 1: end of.

549
00:27:22,481 --> 00:27:24,920
Speaker 2: This story, he's given you the close shave on the

550
00:27:24,921 --> 00:27:26,721
Speaker 2: the number one to the side of your head. I mean.

551
00:27:27,561 --> 00:27:30,761
Speaker 1: Well, so, eventually, we have a number of different jobs

552
00:27:30,801 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 1: as negotiators, and that is to negotiate the peaceful surrender

553
00:27:34,120 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 1: of our subject. For the most part, oftentimes we have

554
00:27:37,281 --> 00:27:41,321
Speaker 1: to provide information and intelligence to our tactical commander or

555
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 1: the arrest team who are supporting us in achieving their mission.

556
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:48,761
Speaker 1: And so if you believe negotiations have stalled, failed, or

557
00:27:48,761 --> 00:27:52,721
Speaker 1: you're at an impass, you can then affect things around

558
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 1: the stronghold to get that person to re engage. And

559
00:27:56,001 --> 00:27:58,360
Speaker 1: so what they did was they conducted it's called a

560
00:27:58,360 --> 00:28:00,920
Speaker 1: breach and hold, and that's where they breached the door,

561
00:28:01,001 --> 00:28:04,281
Speaker 1: and then we hold with significant options, ready to defend

562
00:28:04,281 --> 00:28:06,841
Speaker 1: ourselves to see what happens next, and then you try

563
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,961
Speaker 1: and engage. It was an empty corridor, there was graffiti everywhere,

564
00:28:11,001 --> 00:28:13,001
Speaker 1: there was stuff all over the floor. We moved with

565
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 1: purpose through the stronghold, slow, methodical, and he wasn't in

566
00:28:17,761 --> 00:28:20,200
Speaker 1: this place at all, gone, completely gone. We were on

567
00:28:20,281 --> 00:28:23,801
Speaker 1: level eighteen of the Commission Flats and we opened up

568
00:28:23,801 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 1: a window and I remember looking out and I looked

569
00:28:27,241 --> 00:28:29,360
Speaker 1: right and I could see the eastern suburbs and the

570
00:28:29,441 --> 00:28:31,881
Speaker 1: Dan Andongs, and then I looked to the left and

571
00:28:32,561 --> 00:28:35,200
Speaker 1: I could see on about I'm not hitting about an

572
00:28:35,241 --> 00:28:39,001
Speaker 1: inch of concrete. I could see a person shimming across

573
00:28:39,041 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 1: the wall on the outside of the top of the

574
00:28:41,521 --> 00:28:45,641
Speaker 1: Commission Flat tower. He was trying to escape and he

575
00:28:45,761 --> 00:28:48,681
Speaker 1: was in very real danger of falling or death by

576
00:28:48,721 --> 00:28:52,041
Speaker 1: misadventure at that stage, and so my options then to

577
00:28:52,081 --> 00:28:54,921
Speaker 1: negotiate with him are almost non existent. He's moving away

578
00:28:54,961 --> 00:28:58,601
Speaker 1: from me. He's driven and determined, and his brain's are online.

579
00:28:58,641 --> 00:29:02,921
Speaker 1: He's making you know, Alex Hanold, the free solo climber,

580
00:29:02,961 --> 00:29:05,881
Speaker 1: he'd make him look silly by compar Harrison. It was

581
00:29:05,921 --> 00:29:09,401
Speaker 1: pretty phenomenal how he was moving across that tiny piece

582
00:29:09,641 --> 00:29:13,201
Speaker 1: of masonry. But eventually he moved into what he thought

583
00:29:13,241 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 1: was another flat, but it wasn't. And standing there hiding

584
00:29:17,761 --> 00:29:20,561
Speaker 1: behind a door was five of the toughest guys that

585
00:29:20,601 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 1: I know waiting for him, and they waited until he

586
00:29:23,481 --> 00:29:27,041
Speaker 1: got comfortable and then arrested him without any force, which

587
00:29:27,081 --> 00:29:28,761
Speaker 1: is the outcome we're always going for.

588
00:29:29,801 --> 00:29:31,681
Speaker 2: Every job is different, isn't it. But I guess the

589
00:29:31,761 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 2: skills overarch all these jobs. And I hear about this

590
00:29:35,801 --> 00:29:39,321
Speaker 2: seventy thirty. You've got to be listing seventy percent, talking

591
00:29:39,401 --> 00:29:42,841
Speaker 2: thirty percent. Take us through how that works in practice.

592
00:29:43,121 --> 00:29:45,041
Speaker 1: We say you have two ears in one mouth, and

593
00:29:45,081 --> 00:29:47,601
Speaker 1: that's about the ratio. You should be listening twice as

594
00:29:47,681 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 1: much as you speak. And the reason is that you

595
00:29:51,401 --> 00:29:54,281
Speaker 1: want to invite that person to tell you what the

596
00:29:54,321 --> 00:29:57,481
Speaker 1: main issue is. And if you're too busy talking you're

597
00:29:57,521 --> 00:30:00,081
Speaker 1: going to try and solve that problem for them, then

598
00:30:00,081 --> 00:30:02,801
Speaker 1: problem solving is never going to work because now is

599
00:30:02,841 --> 00:30:05,721
Speaker 1: not the time. Now is the time for them venting

600
00:30:05,841 --> 00:30:08,361
Speaker 1: them letting out what the issues is. And if you

601
00:30:08,521 --> 00:30:12,281
Speaker 1: listen enough, you will find a good appropriate question to

602
00:30:12,361 --> 00:30:14,561
Speaker 1: put it back to them and ask them what their

603
00:30:14,561 --> 00:30:16,961
Speaker 1: decision is. And I'll give you an example of my daughter.

604
00:30:17,081 --> 00:30:19,961
Speaker 1: She was at cross country training and she wanted to

605
00:30:20,001 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 1: go to the car and sit down because it was

606
00:30:21,481 --> 00:30:23,481
Speaker 1: cold and it was wet and they were having to run.

607
00:30:23,481 --> 00:30:25,121
Speaker 1: And she goes, I don't want to do this, and

608
00:30:25,161 --> 00:30:27,041
Speaker 1: I said, and I just listened, and I heard, and

609
00:30:27,081 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: I asked a few questions, and I made sure I listened.

610
00:30:29,921 --> 00:30:32,720
Speaker 1: And I said, what's the best thing about doing cross country?

611
00:30:32,801 --> 00:30:34,161
Speaker 1: She goes, I like the medals at the end of

612
00:30:34,161 --> 00:30:36,881
Speaker 1: the year and the party. And I said, okay, well,

613
00:30:36,881 --> 00:30:40,081
Speaker 1: how do we get that? She says, by doing races?

614
00:30:40,281 --> 00:30:41,841
Speaker 1: And I said do we get them by winning races?

615
00:30:41,881 --> 00:30:44,681
Speaker 1: She goes, no, just by doing our best. And I said, okay,

616
00:30:44,681 --> 00:30:46,401
Speaker 1: now I'm going to give you a choice. You can

617
00:30:46,441 --> 00:30:48,121
Speaker 1: go to the car, and I'll sit there with you

618
00:30:48,561 --> 00:30:51,081
Speaker 1: and we'll listen to music and we'll have fun. Or

619
00:30:51,121 --> 00:30:53,001
Speaker 1: you can choose to go back and you can choose

620
00:30:53,081 --> 00:30:56,761
Speaker 1: to train, learn and grow and do your best. But

621
00:30:56,841 --> 00:30:59,801
Speaker 1: it's your decision. What would you like to do? I

622
00:30:59,881 --> 00:31:02,161
Speaker 1: involved her in the process, and I didn't say you're

623
00:31:02,201 --> 00:31:04,321
Speaker 1: going to do this, or there's going to be no McDonald's,

624
00:31:04,361 --> 00:31:06,041
Speaker 1: or you're not going to get that's not going to work.

625
00:31:06,081 --> 00:31:08,321
Speaker 1: It might work in the short term. But someone once

626
00:31:08,401 --> 00:31:11,921
Speaker 1: said parenting is making tough decisions now, easy life later,

627
00:31:12,881 --> 00:31:15,561
Speaker 1: and negotiating is the same thing. And so we make

628
00:31:15,641 --> 00:31:18,001
Speaker 1: tough decisions as soon as we start talking to people

629
00:31:18,001 --> 00:31:20,481
Speaker 1: and we listen, but we always give them an option.

630
00:31:21,081 --> 00:31:22,841
Speaker 1: What is your decision, what would you like to do?

631
00:31:23,561 --> 00:31:25,441
Speaker 1: The last thing we do is stand there and threaten people.

632
00:31:25,481 --> 00:31:27,841
Speaker 1: If you don't do this, there's going to be these consequences,

633
00:31:28,041 --> 00:31:30,521
Speaker 1: and there are real consequences, but we don't lay it

634
00:31:30,561 --> 00:31:33,881
Speaker 1: out like a scolding parent. You have to involve that

635
00:31:33,921 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 1: person in the process, and that's what we try and do.

636
00:31:37,281 --> 00:31:40,361
Speaker 1: I was asked recently where do kids act up the

637
00:31:40,401 --> 00:31:43,681
Speaker 1: most in the supermarket? And it's at the register, right.

638
00:31:44,241 --> 00:31:47,161
Speaker 2: Because it's designed to have always chocolates and lollies and

639
00:31:47,441 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 2: toys position there to drive the mad and then they

640
00:31:50,281 --> 00:31:50,921
Speaker 2: drive their parents.

641
00:31:50,921 --> 00:31:54,041
Speaker 1: Man, that's right, But there is a psychological solution to everything,

642
00:31:54,081 --> 00:31:56,641
Speaker 1: and there is a practical solution. And the practical solution

643
00:31:56,841 --> 00:31:59,481
Speaker 1: is to give your kid that lollipop or the magazine

644
00:31:59,481 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 1: with a toy on the front. And so what I

645
00:32:02,521 --> 00:32:05,881
Speaker 1: started doing with my children was as we shopped, I

646
00:32:05,921 --> 00:32:08,201
Speaker 1: have said, you know, you go pick three pieces of fruit,

647
00:32:08,601 --> 00:32:10,881
Speaker 1: because I have a hypothesis that kids act up at

648
00:32:10,921 --> 00:32:14,721
Speaker 1: the supermarket at the register, not just because the actions

649
00:32:14,721 --> 00:32:17,401
Speaker 1: of the supermarkets, but because they see you out there

650
00:32:17,441 --> 00:32:20,681
Speaker 1: making decisions, putting things in the shopping trolley. They see

651
00:32:20,721 --> 00:32:24,681
Speaker 1: you making decisions and choosing things, and that is ultimately

652
00:32:24,881 --> 00:32:28,521
Speaker 1: very exciting for a young growing mind. And they know

653
00:32:28,721 --> 00:32:30,641
Speaker 1: that that register, if you look at it like it's

654
00:32:30,641 --> 00:32:33,201
Speaker 1: a gated system, it's the last part of the gate

655
00:32:33,201 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 1: where you get to make a decision, and that's what

656
00:32:35,561 --> 00:32:38,161
Speaker 1: all the stuff they want is. So what I started

657
00:32:38,201 --> 00:32:40,041
Speaker 1: doing was I noticed that if I involved them in

658
00:32:40,081 --> 00:32:42,441
Speaker 1: the process, by the time it got to the register,

659
00:32:42,961 --> 00:32:45,041
Speaker 1: they might ask once, but there was no screaming and

660
00:32:45,081 --> 00:32:46,921
Speaker 1: dropping of the toys or anything like that.

661
00:32:47,121 --> 00:32:48,841
Speaker 2: Was police, drop the toy.

662
00:32:49,081 --> 00:32:51,401
Speaker 1: Yeah that's right, Yeah, yeah, get down off the couch.

663
00:32:52,641 --> 00:32:56,881
Speaker 1: And so I applied that to my policing as a negotiator.

664
00:32:57,001 --> 00:33:00,281
Speaker 1: Is I involved that person in the process instead of

665
00:33:00,321 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 1: just giving them ultimatums. You're not allowed this, you're not

666
00:33:02,761 --> 00:33:04,761
Speaker 1: allowed that. That's not going to happen. You're going to

667
00:33:04,761 --> 00:33:07,401
Speaker 1: do what I say now is the time we're at

668
00:33:07,401 --> 00:33:08,921
Speaker 1: the end of the register or I need you to

669
00:33:08,921 --> 00:33:12,001
Speaker 1: get into the divisional van. No. I include them in

670
00:33:12,001 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 1: the process, and it might seem like it will take longer,

671
00:33:16,161 --> 00:33:19,401
Speaker 1: but it's difficult decisions at the beginning and an easy

672
00:33:19,441 --> 00:33:21,881
Speaker 1: life later. And that's what we do at a siege situation.

673
00:33:22,041 --> 00:33:24,561
Speaker 1: Is the first thing I say to anybody is has

674
00:33:24,601 --> 00:33:27,681
Speaker 1: anyone explained to you exactly why I'm here? And the

675
00:33:27,721 --> 00:33:30,401
Speaker 1: answer is usually no, Okay, Well let me explain that

676
00:33:30,441 --> 00:33:32,641
Speaker 1: to you. And if you've got any questions, you ask

677
00:33:32,721 --> 00:33:35,401
Speaker 1: them please, because I don't want them to be a misunderstanding.

678
00:33:35,521 --> 00:33:38,641
Speaker 1: And so you know, we build up that sense of

679
00:33:38,721 --> 00:33:42,361
Speaker 1: trust and it's trust and it's rapport and you don't

680
00:33:42,361 --> 00:33:44,681
Speaker 1: always need one or the other. Remember, you can do

681
00:33:44,721 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 1: anything in a negotiation which you can't do everything. People

682
00:33:48,521 --> 00:33:50,961
Speaker 1: always think, oh, I've got one of my coppers talking

683
00:33:50,961 --> 00:33:53,601
Speaker 1: to this guy and they've got great rapport. That's good,

684
00:33:54,481 --> 00:33:56,961
Speaker 1: But you've been there for four hours. Is this now

685
00:33:57,001 --> 00:34:01,201
Speaker 1: a successful negotiation? And why have you called the negotiator capability?

686
00:34:01,361 --> 00:34:03,641
Speaker 1: We might then have to come up and okay, let's

687
00:34:03,641 --> 00:34:06,841
Speaker 1: put report to the side. Let's focus on trust because

688
00:34:06,881 --> 00:34:09,561
Speaker 1: at the moment, he's enjoying rapport and he's liking the

689
00:34:09,601 --> 00:34:12,401
Speaker 1: control that that brings him. And yes, he might like

690
00:34:12,481 --> 00:34:15,001
Speaker 1: that detective or seeing you comfortable, but we have a

691
00:34:15,081 --> 00:34:17,281
Speaker 1: job to do and we have people that we serve

692
00:34:17,321 --> 00:34:23,241
Speaker 1: in Victoria, and so I've noticed people are fascinated about negotiations,

693
00:34:23,881 --> 00:34:27,001
Speaker 1: but a lot of people misunderstand it what it actually is.

694
00:34:27,241 --> 00:34:30,641
Speaker 1: And sometimes that means we don't make friends at jobs

695
00:34:30,681 --> 00:34:33,121
Speaker 1: because you're tapping someone on the shoulder who's working their

696
00:34:33,121 --> 00:34:36,440
Speaker 1: butt off and saying sorry, we need to take over now.

697
00:34:37,001 --> 00:34:40,201
Speaker 1: We're not there to make friends. But you talk to

698
00:34:40,241 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 1: those people afterwards and you try and smooth things over.

699
00:34:43,361 --> 00:34:45,321
Speaker 2: I've got the greatest respect for people who are on

700
00:34:45,361 --> 00:34:47,721
Speaker 2: the divisional van. I think seventy five percent of their

701
00:34:47,761 --> 00:34:50,561
Speaker 2: jobs and their domestic violence related Yes, they're going into

702
00:34:50,561 --> 00:34:53,961
Speaker 2: scenes where they're telling people older than them how to

703
00:34:54,001 --> 00:34:56,161
Speaker 2: solve problems in their relationships and so forth, and a

704
00:34:56,201 --> 00:34:59,081
Speaker 2: lot of your work does come out of those situations.

705
00:34:59,641 --> 00:35:04,241
Speaker 2: You're also skilling the frontline officers in those principles, but

706
00:35:04,281 --> 00:35:07,241
Speaker 2: at least when they cross the threshold, they have some

707
00:35:08,361 --> 00:35:10,441
Speaker 2: sense of what to do. What do you try to

708
00:35:10,481 --> 00:35:11,641
Speaker 2: impart to them.

709
00:35:11,921 --> 00:35:14,361
Speaker 1: So one of the biggest things I try and say

710
00:35:14,641 --> 00:35:18,721
Speaker 1: with any policing is you need to justify your decision making.

711
00:35:19,041 --> 00:35:21,721
Speaker 1: And we have a thing called the tactical options model,

712
00:35:22,001 --> 00:35:24,081
Speaker 1: and there's all sorts of things in the tactical options

713
00:35:24,081 --> 00:35:26,761
Speaker 1: model that most people would be familiar with, but they're

714
00:35:26,801 --> 00:35:29,361
Speaker 1: things that we can use in our skill set to

715
00:35:30,201 --> 00:35:33,681
Speaker 1: respond to people. And one of them that I think

716
00:35:33,761 --> 00:35:38,081
Speaker 1: is criminally undersold is presence. I do a lot of

717
00:35:38,121 --> 00:35:40,201
Speaker 1: study and I read a lot of books. And there

718
00:35:40,241 --> 00:35:42,681
Speaker 1: was a study in New York that they had done

719
00:35:42,721 --> 00:35:46,801
Speaker 1: based on the serial killer Ted Bundy. What they had found.

720
00:35:46,881 --> 00:35:51,721
Speaker 1: When he was finally convicted, he spoke with psychologists and

721
00:35:51,761 --> 00:35:53,440
Speaker 1: a lot of them wanted to know what made him

722
00:35:53,481 --> 00:35:56,361
Speaker 1: the villain that he was. But the psychologists that went

723
00:35:56,401 --> 00:35:58,121
Speaker 1: to the front of the queue were the ones who

724
00:35:58,161 --> 00:36:00,761
Speaker 1: wanted to know how did he choose his victims, what

725
00:36:00,801 --> 00:36:04,161
Speaker 1: did victims selection look like? And so when they interviewed him,

726
00:36:04,561 --> 00:36:07,081
Speaker 1: he said, well, it's a whole bunch of things. It

727
00:36:07,121 --> 00:36:09,841
Speaker 1: was their gait, it was the way they moved. They

728
00:36:09,881 --> 00:36:11,521
Speaker 1: looked like a fish out of water. They looked like

729
00:36:11,561 --> 00:36:14,841
Speaker 1: they didn't belong, like they would be missed. But it

730
00:36:14,921 --> 00:36:17,041
Speaker 1: was hundreds of different things that when I put it

731
00:36:17,081 --> 00:36:18,961
Speaker 1: all together in my mind, I had a red button

732
00:36:18,961 --> 00:36:20,801
Speaker 1: and I just hit that red button and said, that's

733
00:36:20,841 --> 00:36:24,441
Speaker 1: my victim. But that's just a hypothesis, right, and so

734
00:36:24,481 --> 00:36:26,001
Speaker 1: you've got to test it. So what they did was

735
00:36:26,041 --> 00:36:28,841
Speaker 1: they drove around in a van and they filmed random

736
00:36:28,881 --> 00:36:32,681
Speaker 1: people just for moments walking down the street. They showed

737
00:36:32,681 --> 00:36:36,041
Speaker 1: those footage to criminals and people with a criminal history

738
00:36:36,481 --> 00:36:38,881
Speaker 1: and gave them a red button and said you just

739
00:36:39,041 --> 00:36:40,721
Speaker 1: all you have to do is watch, and when you

740
00:36:40,801 --> 00:36:43,281
Speaker 1: see someone that you were determined to be your victim,

741
00:36:43,281 --> 00:36:46,241
Speaker 1: you hit that red button. When they collated all the

742
00:36:46,281 --> 00:36:51,201
Speaker 1: red button hits, there was men, women, children, police officers, teachers,

743
00:36:51,761 --> 00:36:54,641
Speaker 1: but they all shared the same qualities, and those qualities

744
00:36:54,681 --> 00:36:58,041
Speaker 1: were they looked like there was a chaos in their movement,

745
00:36:58,121 --> 00:37:00,361
Speaker 1: like they didn't belong, like they wouldn't be missed, like

746
00:37:00,401 --> 00:37:04,081
Speaker 1: they were frustrated, like they were flustered, looking at their watch,

747
00:37:04,161 --> 00:37:08,721
Speaker 1: walking the wrong direct, turning back, making second guessing themselves.

748
00:37:09,121 --> 00:37:11,601
Speaker 1: And so what I learned from that is what's the

749
00:37:11,601 --> 00:37:14,361
Speaker 1: opposite of that look like? And how can we get

750
00:37:14,441 --> 00:37:18,161
Speaker 1: police officers or anyone listening to this to use those

751
00:37:18,241 --> 00:37:21,721
Speaker 1: principles so that you don't become a victim. And so

752
00:37:21,881 --> 00:37:26,201
Speaker 1: whenever I'm teaching our students and with our negotiation team,

753
00:37:26,441 --> 00:37:29,041
Speaker 1: the work starts long before you get out of that

754
00:37:29,201 --> 00:37:33,201
Speaker 1: car at the incident. The work starts in your planning,

755
00:37:33,241 --> 00:37:36,601
Speaker 1: The work starts in your presence, The work starts in

756
00:37:36,641 --> 00:37:40,281
Speaker 1: your body language. Be the slowest person in the room,

757
00:37:40,561 --> 00:37:46,561
Speaker 1: not the fastest. Don't command attention, don't command respect, Earn

758
00:37:46,641 --> 00:37:50,521
Speaker 1: it and it will come freely if you're confident. And

759
00:37:50,561 --> 00:37:53,801
Speaker 1: if you're confident, and there's a difference between confidence and bravado.

760
00:37:54,321 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 1: And I find that if I was being honest about

761
00:37:57,561 --> 00:37:59,881
Speaker 1: myself as a young police officer, I was chopped full

762
00:37:59,921 --> 00:38:02,561
Speaker 1: of bravado. Because you graduate and you get this uniform

763
00:38:02,601 --> 00:38:04,641
Speaker 1: and you do the marching out, and it's a phenomenal

764
00:38:04,681 --> 00:38:07,521
Speaker 1: experience and I wouldn't change it for anything in the world.

765
00:38:08,401 --> 00:38:11,081
Speaker 1: But the young, stupid me was full of bravado. You

766
00:38:11,121 --> 00:38:13,561
Speaker 1: will do what I say because the law is there,

767
00:38:13,601 --> 00:38:16,361
Speaker 1: and I work for that institution and I respect it,

768
00:38:16,401 --> 00:38:19,161
Speaker 1: and so should you. Life doesn't work that way, and

769
00:38:19,361 --> 00:38:22,961
Speaker 1: people are complex and they're interesting and they're very different.

770
00:38:23,121 --> 00:38:25,681
Speaker 1: And if you walk into a room and you demand

771
00:38:25,761 --> 00:38:28,081
Speaker 1: people respect you, it's not going to work very well.

772
00:38:28,881 --> 00:38:31,681
Speaker 1: And so what I try to teach people is is

773
00:38:32,121 --> 00:38:35,001
Speaker 1: like you would have done today. You did preparation, and

774
00:38:35,081 --> 00:38:38,321
Speaker 1: you're very good. I know your history, Adam, and you're

775
00:38:38,481 --> 00:38:43,801
Speaker 1: very good at and researching and building relationships that doesn't

776
00:38:43,841 --> 00:38:46,921
Speaker 1: happen overnight. There's a funny story about I think it

777
00:38:46,961 --> 00:38:50,921
Speaker 1: was Pablo Picasso. He used to sit in a cafe

778
00:38:51,401 --> 00:38:54,121
Speaker 1: and do sketches for people for money. And there was

779
00:38:54,121 --> 00:38:55,801
Speaker 1: a woman lined up and she gave him a you

780
00:38:55,801 --> 00:38:57,561
Speaker 1: know at the time, a large sum of money, and

781
00:38:57,761 --> 00:39:00,041
Speaker 1: he did this thing and a minute and a half

782
00:39:00,041 --> 00:39:02,361
Speaker 1: and gave it to her. And she said, that took

783
00:39:02,361 --> 00:39:04,401
Speaker 1: you a minute and a half, and he said, no,

784
00:39:04,481 --> 00:39:07,641
Speaker 1: it didn't matter. It took me my whole life. And

785
00:39:07,681 --> 00:39:10,201
Speaker 1: it's kind of like the same thing with negotiating it.

786
00:39:10,521 --> 00:39:12,481
Speaker 1: We will go to a job and we'll deal with

787
00:39:12,521 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 1: someone and they will go We did all the hard work,

788
00:39:16,521 --> 00:39:18,681
Speaker 1: we talked for five hours and you just turned up

789
00:39:18,681 --> 00:39:20,961
Speaker 1: and in three minutes, you guys solved it. And it

790
00:39:21,001 --> 00:39:22,961
Speaker 1: didn't come in three minutes, it happened. It took me

791
00:39:23,041 --> 00:39:26,241
Speaker 1: fourteen years of negotiation. It took me twenty five years

792
00:39:26,241 --> 00:39:30,521
Speaker 1: of being a police officer. And so I wish mate

793
00:39:30,521 --> 00:39:33,321
Speaker 1: that I had this fast forward button to give people

794
00:39:34,241 --> 00:39:39,201
Speaker 1: life experience and the ability to prepare. But they can

795
00:39:39,241 --> 00:39:40,641
Speaker 1: certainly do it faster than I did.

796
00:39:42,761 --> 00:39:46,481
Speaker 2: The negotiator is part of a technical hierarchy of options.

797
00:39:46,921 --> 00:39:50,601
Speaker 2: Eventually you have to step aside and let the next

798
00:39:50,601 --> 00:39:53,761
Speaker 2: option take place, which may be forced. Yes, how do

799
00:39:53,841 --> 00:39:58,241
Speaker 2: you know when you're losing the battle, but the negotiation

800
00:39:58,561 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 2: is over.

801
00:40:00,041 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 1: There's an old saying that when someone tells you who

802
00:40:02,961 --> 00:40:06,241
Speaker 1: they are, believe them the first time. It's not always

803
00:40:06,321 --> 00:40:09,281
Speaker 1: the case. When you get someone who's scared, who's frightened,

804
00:40:09,281 --> 00:40:13,361
Speaker 1: who's emotional, whose brain is offline, and get away from here,

805
00:40:13,481 --> 00:40:15,721
Speaker 1: or I'll do this aba and see. After a bit

806
00:40:15,761 --> 00:40:18,281
Speaker 1: of experience, it's quite easy to spot someone who's just

807
00:40:18,361 --> 00:40:21,001
Speaker 1: lashing out of the world because they're stalling for time.

808
00:40:21,441 --> 00:40:24,641
Speaker 1: But if you get someone who says to me, I

809
00:40:24,681 --> 00:40:28,721
Speaker 1: will never ever listen to a thing you say or

810
00:40:28,801 --> 00:40:30,881
Speaker 1: do what you want, and then they go ahead and

811
00:40:30,961 --> 00:40:34,121
Speaker 1: continue to prove it. You can trial and build all

812
00:40:34,121 --> 00:40:36,801
Speaker 1: the trust and report you want. But if that person

813
00:40:36,921 --> 00:40:42,201
Speaker 1: is highly motivated with the desire to foil your plans

814
00:40:42,241 --> 00:40:44,401
Speaker 1: for one of a better word. And I wasn't at

815
00:40:44,401 --> 00:40:47,921
Speaker 1: these jobs, but you take, like Binson Laguancio, those sorts

816
00:40:47,961 --> 00:40:53,440
Speaker 1: of characters very intent on what happened, then well, you

817
00:40:53,281 --> 00:40:56,281
Speaker 1: know you're testing me here. But we had multiple day

818
00:40:56,361 --> 00:40:59,161
Speaker 1: sieges with both of those characters. One of them men

819
00:40:59,201 --> 00:41:02,361
Speaker 1: did in a fatality with the so OG, and then

820
00:41:02,801 --> 00:41:05,921
Speaker 1: another one ended up with options used then and arrest

821
00:41:05,961 --> 00:41:08,521
Speaker 1: by the SOG being made. But you're dealing with someone

822
00:41:08,601 --> 00:41:11,721
Speaker 1: who gets given all the time in the world, but

823
00:41:11,881 --> 00:41:16,081
Speaker 1: instead of breaking down what their reason for being in

824
00:41:16,121 --> 00:41:19,481
Speaker 1: that situation is and dealing with the emotion, they instead

825
00:41:19,641 --> 00:41:22,721
Speaker 1: increase their leverage and they increase their desire to take

826
00:41:22,761 --> 00:41:26,441
Speaker 1: on police in an armed confrontation. And it's not ideal,

827
00:41:26,481 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 1: but that's why we have specialist teams like the cur team,

828
00:41:29,561 --> 00:41:32,041
Speaker 1: and that's why we have the sogs, is to take

829
00:41:32,081 --> 00:41:34,681
Speaker 1: that seriously and take the fight to that person who's

830
00:41:34,761 --> 00:41:38,401
Speaker 1: ultimately as anti social and violent as they come. And

831
00:41:38,441 --> 00:41:41,361
Speaker 1: there are those people in our community. They're rare, but

832
00:41:42,201 --> 00:41:45,161
Speaker 1: we need to have a capability to answer that force

833
00:41:45,241 --> 00:41:45,761
Speaker 1: with force.

834
00:41:46,561 --> 00:41:49,681
Speaker 2: We also see in the movies negotiators are talking to

835
00:41:49,721 --> 00:41:52,041
Speaker 2: a criminal, someone in a siege or something, and the

836
00:41:52,401 --> 00:41:54,841
Speaker 2: subject will say, get my wife down here, I want

837
00:41:54,841 --> 00:41:57,121
Speaker 2: to talk to my wife, or someone else's bring the

838
00:41:57,161 --> 00:42:00,161
Speaker 2: girlfriend in or the friend in. Does that ever happen?

839
00:42:00,241 --> 00:42:02,041
Speaker 2: Do you ever addicate your role like that?

840
00:42:02,561 --> 00:42:05,041
Speaker 1: So the answer to the first part, yes, it happens

841
00:42:05,081 --> 00:42:07,321
Speaker 1: all the time. We get I want this, I want this,

842
00:42:07,401 --> 00:42:10,161
Speaker 1: give me this. I've had. I want a seven four

843
00:42:10,241 --> 00:42:12,601
Speaker 1: seven laden with fuel, ready to take me to the

844
00:42:12,641 --> 00:42:15,441
Speaker 1: Cayman Islands, to a non extradition country where I'm going

845
00:42:15,521 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 1: to live out my days on a marijuana plantation. I've

846
00:42:18,481 --> 00:42:21,441
Speaker 1: had all that. Ultimately, what you need to do is

847
00:42:21,641 --> 00:42:25,281
Speaker 1: throw those demands we call them or once through a

848
00:42:25,321 --> 00:42:28,521
Speaker 1: prison in your mind and go what do they really need?

849
00:42:29,281 --> 00:42:32,241
Speaker 1: And so, like my daughter are picking up the magazine

850
00:42:32,241 --> 00:42:35,361
Speaker 1: at the front of Coal's she doesn't want that little

851
00:42:35,401 --> 00:42:37,881
Speaker 1: toy in the magazine. She wants to make decisions and

852
00:42:37,921 --> 00:42:39,641
Speaker 1: put things in the trolley and watch them and scan

853
00:42:39,801 --> 00:42:42,681
Speaker 1: them and be part of the process. What she needs

854
00:42:42,721 --> 00:42:45,721
Speaker 1: is to feel heard and feel instead of me just

855
00:42:45,801 --> 00:42:48,281
Speaker 1: you sit there and be quiet and we'll get this done.

856
00:42:48,321 --> 00:42:51,041
Speaker 1: But if you involve the person in the process, the

857
00:42:51,121 --> 00:42:54,641
Speaker 1: once go away quite quickly. And so I had someone

858
00:42:54,961 --> 00:42:56,921
Speaker 1: very recently. He was on the outside of a building

859
00:42:56,961 --> 00:42:59,841
Speaker 1: and you know, like the lethal weapon on the right

860
00:42:59,881 --> 00:43:02,241
Speaker 1: on the ledge. I opened up the door of the

861
00:43:02,321 --> 00:43:04,081
Speaker 1: room so I could talk to him, and he said,

862
00:43:04,201 --> 00:43:06,561
Speaker 1: close that door, I'll jump. So that's what he wants.

863
00:43:06,601 --> 00:43:09,121
Speaker 1: Close the door, I'll jump. And he wanted the AFP.

864
00:43:09,441 --> 00:43:13,521
Speaker 1: Go get the AFP. And I said, okay, you can jump.

865
00:43:13,761 --> 00:43:15,641
Speaker 1: I'm not going to stop you. I don't have any

866
00:43:15,641 --> 00:43:18,161
Speaker 1: safety equipment and that would be that would be very reckless.

867
00:43:18,201 --> 00:43:21,201
Speaker 1: But you can jump. Well, then get the AFP. He said.

868
00:43:21,361 --> 00:43:24,401
Speaker 1: I said, oh, look, they don't have authority or jurisdiction here,

869
00:43:24,841 --> 00:43:28,721
Speaker 1: it's me. And he started counting up, not down, started

870
00:43:28,721 --> 00:43:30,801
Speaker 1: counting up. So I don't even know where he's going

871
00:43:30,841 --> 00:43:33,841
Speaker 1: to with this one. And he did the old fake

872
00:43:34,041 --> 00:43:35,841
Speaker 1: You know, I'm going to jump now unless you do

873
00:43:35,881 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 1: what I want. And I just stood there and held

874
00:43:37,521 --> 00:43:39,921
Speaker 1: my ground, and a younger me wouldn't have done that.

875
00:43:40,081 --> 00:43:42,441
Speaker 1: And I said, well, that's okay, mate, you can, but

876
00:43:42,521 --> 00:43:44,681
Speaker 1: I just need to let you know the boundaries. You're

877
00:43:44,681 --> 00:43:46,881
Speaker 1: allowed to make decisions out there, and there are consequences

878
00:43:46,961 --> 00:43:49,401
Speaker 1: for that, but I'm allowed to make decisions in here too,

879
00:43:49,441 --> 00:43:52,121
Speaker 1: And I'm deciding that you need help. You're in crisis.

880
00:43:52,921 --> 00:43:55,121
Speaker 1: And he goes, we'll bring my mom down here, and

881
00:43:55,161 --> 00:43:56,921
Speaker 1: I said, what would you say to her if she

882
00:43:57,041 --> 00:44:00,921
Speaker 1: was here? And his voice broke and he started talking,

883
00:44:01,401 --> 00:44:04,281
Speaker 1: and then I realized he doesn't need his mom down here.

884
00:44:04,321 --> 00:44:06,241
Speaker 1: He wants his mommy down here, but he doesn't need it.

885
00:44:06,321 --> 00:44:08,681
Speaker 1: What he needs is a sense of support. And he

886
00:44:08,761 --> 00:44:10,681
Speaker 1: goes back to the one that he trusts the most,

887
00:44:10,721 --> 00:44:13,481
Speaker 1: which is his mother. And I said, I can't bring

888
00:44:13,521 --> 00:44:14,961
Speaker 1: your monmy down here, mate. He goes, do it or

889
00:44:14,961 --> 00:44:18,201
Speaker 1: I'll jump, and I said, well, I don't think it's ethical,

890
00:44:18,441 --> 00:44:23,081
Speaker 1: fair or lawful, nor would withstand any scrutiny if I

891
00:44:23,161 --> 00:44:25,201
Speaker 1: was to bring her here and see you hurting the

892
00:44:25,201 --> 00:44:27,321
Speaker 1: way you are today. So I'm going to have to

893
00:44:27,361 --> 00:44:29,241
Speaker 1: say no to that. Main, and that's going to be

894
00:44:29,281 --> 00:44:31,681
Speaker 1: something that I'm not going to move on. So I apologize,

895
00:44:31,721 --> 00:44:34,401
Speaker 1: but that's my decision, and you're free to make decisions

896
00:44:34,401 --> 00:44:36,841
Speaker 1: you want to out there. And within a very short

897
00:44:36,841 --> 00:44:40,121
Speaker 1: period of time he moved on from it because I've

898
00:44:40,121 --> 00:44:42,401
Speaker 1: given him what he needed, which is a sense of control.

899
00:44:42,801 --> 00:44:45,961
Speaker 1: You can control things out there, and you are in control,

900
00:44:46,401 --> 00:44:48,761
Speaker 1: but so am I, and I'm here to support you.

901
00:44:49,361 --> 00:44:53,721
Speaker 1: So I guess to shortcut the answer. Instead of focusing

902
00:44:53,721 --> 00:44:56,481
Speaker 1: on what people want, you focus on what they need.

903
00:44:56,561 --> 00:45:00,001
Speaker 1: And most people, most human beings, need a sense of

904
00:45:00,041 --> 00:45:02,881
Speaker 1: control in their lives, how they're treated, how they make decisions,

905
00:45:02,881 --> 00:45:04,801
Speaker 1: and they need to feel supported when they do that,

906
00:45:05,201 --> 00:45:07,241
Speaker 1: and they need to feel supported in how they feel

907
00:45:07,561 --> 00:45:10,081
Speaker 1: and the complex emotions that are going on in their minds.

908
00:45:10,121 --> 00:45:12,921
Speaker 1: So I give people a sense of decision making. It's

909
00:45:12,961 --> 00:45:14,721
Speaker 1: your decision. What would you like to do? These are

910
00:45:14,721 --> 00:45:17,681
Speaker 1: your options, and I let them know that I'm not

911
00:45:17,721 --> 00:45:20,401
Speaker 1: going to leave their side. And for the better part,

912
00:45:20,841 --> 00:45:24,681
Speaker 1: it's infinitely better than me trying to run around dancing

913
00:45:24,721 --> 00:45:27,521
Speaker 1: to the beat of their drum like a good parent.

914
00:45:27,561 --> 00:45:28,881
Speaker 2: In the way, isn't I reckon? There's a lot of

915
00:45:29,921 --> 00:45:35,081
Speaker 2: transferable skills here. But yeah, eight hundred plus negotiations over

916
00:45:35,121 --> 00:45:41,361
Speaker 2: fourteen years, so many lives intersected at critical moments. Do

917
00:45:41,401 --> 00:45:43,681
Speaker 2: you wonder what happens to the people that you negotiate

918
00:45:43,721 --> 00:45:47,041
Speaker 2: with once the siege or the moment is over.

919
00:45:47,561 --> 00:45:49,641
Speaker 1: There's a few people that I think about from time

920
00:45:49,761 --> 00:45:55,081
Speaker 1: to time, and I allow myself a certain amount, but

921
00:45:55,201 --> 00:45:58,881
Speaker 1: I have to draw the line somewhere because whilst the

922
00:45:58,921 --> 00:46:01,921
Speaker 1: people are in sieges, the people who have been kidnapped,

923
00:46:02,001 --> 00:46:04,121
Speaker 1: the people who are a victim of hostage or that

924
00:46:04,161 --> 00:46:07,001
Speaker 1: are the hostage take. Yes, they deserve our very best

925
00:46:07,481 --> 00:46:10,801
Speaker 1: at the negotiation, but we need to reserve our absolute

926
00:46:10,801 --> 00:46:12,641
Speaker 1: best for the loved ones that we have at home.

927
00:46:13,561 --> 00:46:15,761
Speaker 1: And so, yes, there are a few people that I

928
00:46:15,801 --> 00:46:19,721
Speaker 1: allow myself time to think about. But for the most part,

929
00:46:19,761 --> 00:46:22,721
Speaker 1: when that person surrenders to us and we operate in

930
00:46:22,801 --> 00:46:25,081
Speaker 1: the team and in pairs at the very minimum, but

931
00:46:25,161 --> 00:46:28,361
Speaker 1: usually there's two or three of us, we encourage each

932
00:46:28,441 --> 00:46:31,121
Speaker 1: other to get out of dodge and go back to

933
00:46:31,161 --> 00:46:34,921
Speaker 1: the office, rehabilitate ourselves, reset and get ready to go

934
00:46:34,961 --> 00:46:39,481
Speaker 1: to the next one. Because that's eight hundred complex, stressful

935
00:46:39,721 --> 00:46:42,881
Speaker 1: situations that I can't have bouncing around in my head

936
00:46:42,881 --> 00:46:45,401
Speaker 1: because I'm just not going to be effective. And so

937
00:46:46,161 --> 00:46:50,041
Speaker 1: that's why I say, you don't need to be a psychologist,

938
00:46:50,241 --> 00:46:54,041
Speaker 1: you don't need to be a social worker, because you

939
00:46:54,121 --> 00:46:56,281
Speaker 1: need to be a police officer. And if you're asking

940
00:46:56,361 --> 00:46:59,721
Speaker 1: police officers to be social workers, I think that's unfair.

941
00:47:00,201 --> 00:47:03,481
Speaker 1: You know, the mental health system is so complex. We

942
00:47:03,521 --> 00:47:07,001
Speaker 1: need good police officers operate within their bounds to get

943
00:47:07,001 --> 00:47:09,841
Speaker 1: a successful outcome and then pass that person on to

944
00:47:10,001 --> 00:47:14,161
Speaker 1: the next phase of the Victorian system that may help them.

945
00:47:14,641 --> 00:47:16,481
Speaker 2: This has really become a specialist job and in the

946
00:47:16,521 --> 00:47:18,561
Speaker 2: past people used to cycle through this job. As I

947
00:47:18,601 --> 00:47:22,161
Speaker 2: understand it from other roles. You've chosen to stay in it,

948
00:47:22,681 --> 00:47:25,041
Speaker 2: and you're also giving back a lot to the next

949
00:47:25,081 --> 00:47:28,601
Speaker 2: generation of officers in the divvans and so forth. How

950
00:47:28,681 --> 00:47:30,241
Speaker 2: long can you keep doing this that that's a lot

951
00:47:30,281 --> 00:47:33,041
Speaker 2: of stress, a lot of pressure, and a lot of

952
00:47:33,241 --> 00:47:36,961
Speaker 2: mental discipline required, not to think about particularly the failures

953
00:47:37,001 --> 00:47:39,161
Speaker 2: where you couldn't save somebody, where you couldn't get a

954
00:47:39,161 --> 00:47:40,001
Speaker 2: positive outcome.

955
00:47:40,761 --> 00:47:43,921
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree with you. We have the most senior

956
00:47:44,001 --> 00:47:48,281
Speaker 1: negotiator cadre probably in the world in Victoria, and that

957
00:47:48,361 --> 00:47:51,481
Speaker 1: speaks of two things I believe. Number one, we have

958
00:47:51,561 --> 00:47:54,681
Speaker 1: a good set of systems in place that encourage retention

959
00:47:54,761 --> 00:47:57,441
Speaker 1: of our members. And number two, and this is I

960
00:47:57,441 --> 00:48:00,641
Speaker 1: think critical, is we have a really good culture within

961
00:48:00,681 --> 00:48:03,801
Speaker 1: the Negotiator Unit. It's an office within an office within

962
00:48:03,841 --> 00:48:07,001
Speaker 1: an office. Okay, so we're in a tactical team. We've

963
00:48:07,041 --> 00:48:09,960
Speaker 1: got all the different elements there, the critical Incident response team,

964
00:48:10,281 --> 00:48:12,041
Speaker 1: and then in the corner is us and we've got

965
00:48:12,081 --> 00:48:14,601
Speaker 1: our little room. We've got you know, the usual stuff

966
00:48:14,601 --> 00:48:17,801
Speaker 1: you see on a police station, the photoshop faces on

967
00:48:18,081 --> 00:48:20,881
Speaker 1: memes and given each other shit. But what I love

968
00:48:20,921 --> 00:48:23,881
Speaker 1: about it is when we were forming the unit, my

969
00:48:24,001 --> 00:48:27,321
Speaker 1: friend John Harley, who's my boss, I said, how do

970
00:48:27,401 --> 00:48:29,161
Speaker 1: we know if we're going to be successful? And he

971
00:48:29,201 --> 00:48:31,641
Speaker 1: says about what? And I said, our culture. How do

972
00:48:31,681 --> 00:48:33,601
Speaker 1: we know if it's good culture? And he goes, It's easy.

973
00:48:34,001 --> 00:48:35,681
Speaker 1: People will want to come and hang out with us,

974
00:48:35,801 --> 00:48:37,561
Speaker 1: that's it. They want to hear us, they want to

975
00:48:37,601 --> 00:48:39,641
Speaker 1: talk to us. And if we've done our job well

976
00:48:39,641 --> 00:48:41,881
Speaker 1: and if we've got a good culture, people will come

977
00:48:41,921 --> 00:48:44,961
Speaker 1: to us. And that's what we've created. And so I

978
00:48:45,481 --> 00:48:51,401
Speaker 1: have incredibly fond relationships with detectives, with a psychological unit

979
00:48:51,441 --> 00:48:55,641
Speaker 1: from Victoria Police. We had a psychologist, one of the

980
00:48:55,641 --> 00:48:58,401
Speaker 1: best in Australia, Nicole, who was with us. She's got

981
00:48:58,401 --> 00:49:00,721
Speaker 1: a lot on her plate of all her work for

982
00:49:00,801 --> 00:49:03,201
Speaker 1: Victoria Police and she came and spent eight months with

983
00:49:03,281 --> 00:49:06,081
Speaker 1: us and we just were like sponges learning from her.

984
00:49:06,761 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 1: The SOG will come and spend time with us, and

985
00:49:09,761 --> 00:49:12,521
Speaker 1: that didn't always happen, and it happened because we have

986
00:49:12,641 --> 00:49:16,161
Speaker 1: a good culture and we have a meritocracy. If you

987
00:49:16,241 --> 00:49:19,001
Speaker 1: are the best, if you are like Jake at the

988
00:49:19,041 --> 00:49:21,161
Speaker 1: start and everyone else that I work with, they are

989
00:49:21,161 --> 00:49:23,841
Speaker 1: the best and they are so good at their jobs.

990
00:49:23,961 --> 00:49:27,201
Speaker 1: And I think we've created that, not by accident but

991
00:49:27,201 --> 00:49:28,081
Speaker 1: by design.

992
00:49:28,801 --> 00:49:30,401
Speaker 2: I think also you mentioned at the beginning of this

993
00:49:31,041 --> 00:49:34,041
Speaker 2: one of the best debris you have is cutting yourself

994
00:49:34,041 --> 00:49:36,641
Speaker 2: off from the day's work and talking to your daughter

995
00:49:36,721 --> 00:49:37,321
Speaker 2: or your wife.

996
00:49:38,041 --> 00:49:42,041
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and it's important that if I drag this stuff

997
00:49:42,081 --> 00:49:45,881
Speaker 1: home with me, that's not healthy. But there is enough

998
00:49:45,921 --> 00:49:48,601
Speaker 1: that I can give of the work that I do

999
00:49:49,161 --> 00:49:51,481
Speaker 1: to let them know when I'm struggling, So let them

1000
00:49:51,481 --> 00:49:54,440
Speaker 1: know what I'm being vulnerable because in the last ten years,

1001
00:49:54,521 --> 00:50:00,601
Speaker 1: particularly and especially post COVID, we may have misunderstood stress,

1002
00:50:01,001 --> 00:50:02,601
Speaker 1: and so what I mean by that, And I've got

1003
00:50:02,641 --> 00:50:06,641
Speaker 1: to tread carefully here because everyone's experience is unique. But

1004
00:50:07,041 --> 00:50:10,081
Speaker 1: stress is a force just like heat is. And so

1005
00:50:10,201 --> 00:50:13,480
Speaker 1: heat can cook your food, it can make you warm,

1006
00:50:13,521 --> 00:50:17,001
Speaker 1: it can also burn you. And we get stress, and

1007
00:50:17,041 --> 00:50:19,681
Speaker 1: we get a stress response from a critical incident. When

1008
00:50:19,681 --> 00:50:22,841
Speaker 1: we get an adrenaline, we're getting cortisol, the stress hormone

1009
00:50:22,841 --> 00:50:25,161
Speaker 1: in her brain. It is a stressful experience, and we

1010
00:50:25,201 --> 00:50:30,161
Speaker 1: get a stress response, noise sensitivity, forgetful memory, the shaking

1011
00:50:30,201 --> 00:50:33,361
Speaker 1: of the hands, the tremors, that's a normal human reaction,

1012
00:50:33,801 --> 00:50:35,801
Speaker 1: and we need to know that that's just our body

1013
00:50:36,481 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 1: healing from what happened. And so I freely will show

1014
00:50:41,001 --> 00:50:43,561
Speaker 1: emotion when I'm talking about jobs, because that's a healthy

1015
00:50:43,641 --> 00:50:47,001
Speaker 1: human reaction that I should feel something and to light

1016
00:50:47,081 --> 00:50:49,641
Speaker 1: it out. When I think about stress, it's like you

1017
00:50:49,681 --> 00:50:52,241
Speaker 1: injure your knee. People want to chuck ice packs on

1018
00:50:52,281 --> 00:50:55,041
Speaker 1: it and get anti inflammatories. That sells rushing to the

1019
00:50:55,081 --> 00:50:58,521
Speaker 1: area trying to heal your body. And we're very quick

1020
00:50:58,641 --> 00:51:02,441
Speaker 1: to throw things and diagnoses at it instead of letting

1021
00:51:02,441 --> 00:51:04,721
Speaker 1: it take its natural course. And so I encourage a

1022
00:51:04,721 --> 00:51:07,001
Speaker 1: lot of the police that I deal with. To understand

1023
00:51:07,041 --> 00:51:10,561
Speaker 1: that this is a bonker's job. You will experience more

1024
00:51:10,601 --> 00:51:12,401
Speaker 1: in the first year of being a police officer than

1025
00:51:12,441 --> 00:51:15,841
Speaker 1: most people will in their entire lifetime. And I don't

1026
00:51:15,841 --> 00:51:18,321
Speaker 1: think that, but I don't think there's any other career

1027
00:51:18,881 --> 00:51:21,721
Speaker 1: that can give you that. And you are seeing victorians

1028
00:51:21,721 --> 00:51:23,681
Speaker 1: at the worst day of their lives and you get

1029
00:51:23,681 --> 00:51:28,480
Speaker 1: to help them, and so understand that stress responses happen.

1030
00:51:28,561 --> 00:51:31,281
Speaker 1: They happen for a reason and for the most part,

1031
00:51:31,321 --> 00:51:34,921
Speaker 1: it's probably a good thing that they do. So with me,

1032
00:51:35,121 --> 00:51:38,761
Speaker 1: I don't weaponize my stress response. I embrace it. I

1033
00:51:38,841 --> 00:51:41,561
Speaker 1: learn how to control it, like you know, I like

1034
00:51:41,961 --> 00:51:45,121
Speaker 1: I do combat breathing. I do some sense of mindfulness

1035
00:51:45,401 --> 00:51:48,601
Speaker 1: unless that garden hoset kinks up just the wrong way

1036
00:51:48,641 --> 00:51:49,761
Speaker 1: and then I lose my blood.

1037
00:51:49,801 --> 00:51:52,441
Speaker 2: Mate. But well, you've got a full head of hair,

1038
00:51:52,441 --> 00:51:56,000
Speaker 2: a lot of it's great, but clearly clearly doing something right. Listen,

1039
00:51:56,041 --> 00:51:58,001
Speaker 2: thank you so much for your service. And I think

1040
00:51:58,001 --> 00:52:00,521
Speaker 2: it's an amazing job you do because you think of

1041
00:52:01,161 --> 00:52:05,921
Speaker 2: how many situations before this capability became developed, things ended

1042
00:52:06,121 --> 00:52:09,681
Speaker 2: in loss of life, injury, misery and tragedy. When you

1043
00:52:09,681 --> 00:52:11,961
Speaker 2: can say, of those eight hundred jobs, the majority, I

1044
00:52:11,961 --> 00:52:14,721
Speaker 2: would say, you've affected a peaceful outcome.

1045
00:52:15,441 --> 00:52:18,921
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think our job as negotiators is to assist

1046
00:52:18,921 --> 00:52:22,361
Speaker 1: the mission, and the mission usually almost always is the

1047
00:52:22,521 --> 00:52:26,761
Speaker 1: safe resolution of the incident. And I am a very

1048
00:52:26,761 --> 00:52:30,041
Speaker 1: small cog in a wonderful team of negotiators. And I

1049
00:52:30,081 --> 00:52:32,721
Speaker 1: couldn't be more proud, adam of the work that we

1050
00:52:32,761 --> 00:52:35,001
Speaker 1: do that especially the support that we get from our

1051
00:52:35,041 --> 00:52:38,521
Speaker 1: command because we are There's less negotiators in this country

1052
00:52:38,521 --> 00:52:42,761
Speaker 1: than there are professional football players or car races. It's scarce.

1053
00:52:42,841 --> 00:52:46,521
Speaker 1: It's rare. And my dad said to me, and I'll

1054
00:52:46,601 --> 00:52:48,921
Speaker 1: leave you with this that he said, no matter what

1055
00:52:48,961 --> 00:52:51,801
Speaker 1: you do, because I'm an immigrant, I wasn't born in

1056
00:52:51,801 --> 00:52:54,401
Speaker 1: this country and we moved here from Ireland, and my

1057
00:52:54,601 --> 00:52:56,841
Speaker 1: mum and dad said, no matter what you do, serve

1058
00:52:56,921 --> 00:53:00,881
Speaker 1: the community that has been so kind to us. But

1059
00:53:00,921 --> 00:53:03,761
Speaker 1: don't live a boring life. It's not about money, it's

1060
00:53:03,801 --> 00:53:08,001
Speaker 1: not about wins and successes. It's don't live a boring life.

1061
00:53:08,081 --> 00:53:11,361
Speaker 1: And I can if I if I retired tomorrow, I

1062
00:53:12,081 --> 00:53:14,601
Speaker 1: would be happy with everything that I've done. It's been

1063
00:53:16,081 --> 00:53:23,561
Speaker 1: it's been exciting. My career has been interesting, violent, sad, thrilling,

1064
00:53:24,121 --> 00:53:25,641
Speaker 1: but it has not been boring.

1065
00:53:25,761 --> 00:53:27,561
Speaker 2: And you're about to start another shift and you have

1066
00:53:27,641 --> 00:53:30,960
Speaker 2: no idea what's coming, no idea at all.

1067
00:53:31,561 --> 00:53:33,961
Speaker 1: I tell you what, mate, I'm excited for what's coming.

1068
00:53:34,001 --> 00:53:37,601
Speaker 1: Because the day you don't feel excitement is it's time

1069
00:53:37,641 --> 00:53:40,721
Speaker 1: to stop and do something else. Because I love what

1070
00:53:40,761 --> 00:53:42,881
Speaker 1: we do, I love the team I work with, and

1071
00:53:42,921 --> 00:53:46,961
Speaker 1: I'm very proud to be a police officer, and especially

1072
00:53:47,001 --> 00:53:50,881
Speaker 1: I'm very proud to be a police negotiator with Victory Police.

1073
00:53:53,761 --> 00:53:55,721
Speaker 2: That was leading Senior constab believe while I hand on

1074
00:53:55,761 --> 00:53:58,441
Speaker 2: his job as a police negotiator, he sees people at

1075
00:53:58,481 --> 00:54:03,521
Speaker 2: their very worst moments and affects a positive outcome. I'd

1076
00:54:03,561 --> 00:54:05,841
Speaker 2: like to see Lee's face if I was ever in

1077
00:54:05,841 --> 00:54:08,960
Speaker 2: that situation. We all get to those moments. Look after

1078
00:54:09,001 --> 00:54:11,001
Speaker 2: each other. It's really important. But if you do get

1079
00:54:11,001 --> 00:54:13,921
Speaker 2: to that moment, there is resources out there. Thank you

1080
00:54:13,961 --> 00:54:16,041
Speaker 2: so much for listening today. If you've got stories for us,

1081
00:54:16,721 --> 00:54:18,681
Speaker 2: actually you should call crime stoppers first if you've got

1082
00:54:18,761 --> 00:54:20,801
Speaker 2: if you've got a case, call Crimestoppers first one le

1083
00:54:20,921 --> 00:54:23,241
Speaker 2: under a triple three, triple zero. But you can also

1084
00:54:23,281 --> 00:54:25,881
Speaker 2: give me an email. Adam Shanna writer at gmail dot com.

1085
00:54:26,241 --> 00:54:28,681
Speaker 2: This has been real crime with Adam Shann Thank you

1086
00:54:28,721 --> 00:54:29,201
Speaker 2: for listening.