1 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:06,470 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. 2 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:09,690 Sean Aylmer: We've spoken a lot on the podcast about infrastructure. There's 3 00:00:09,690 --> 00:00:12,510 Sean Aylmer: been a huge amount of investor interest in it this 4 00:00:12,510 --> 00:00:15,630 Sean Aylmer: year with some significant deals being done. I wanted to 5 00:00:15,630 --> 00:00:18,630 Sean Aylmer: look more closely at what's driving the rush and more importantly, 6 00:00:18,630 --> 00:00:21,930 Sean Aylmer: what the future holds. Peter McGregor is the co-founder of 7 00:00:21,930 --> 00:00:26,730 Sean Aylmer: TRUE Infrastructure, an unlisted infrastructure fund manager launched last year. 8 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:29,760 Sean Aylmer: He's the former head of infrastructure and utilities at Goldman 9 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:34,409 Sean Aylmer: Sachs JBWere and former CEO of the Australian Infrastructure Fund. Peter, 10 00:00:34,409 --> 00:00:35,129 Sean Aylmer: welcome to Fear and Greed. 11 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:37,200 Peter McGregor: Hi, Sean. Thanks for having me. 12 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:39,840 Sean Aylmer: So just tell me about TRUE infrastructure. What do you 13 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:40,529 Sean Aylmer: do exactly? 14 00:00:40,890 --> 00:00:44,580 Peter McGregor: So thanks, Sean. As you mentioned, we launched the fund 15 00:00:44,580 --> 00:00:48,269 Peter McGregor: late last year, and it's a fund of funds designed 16 00:00:48,270 --> 00:00:52,800 Peter McGregor: for wholesale investors. So our target investor market is larger, 17 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:59,790 Peter McGregor: sophisticated individual investors, self-managed super funds, small family offices. And 18 00:00:59,790 --> 00:01:03,300 Peter McGregor: we invest via a range of managers into the infrastructure sector. 19 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:06,540 Peter McGregor: And really, the business model is about giving investors that 20 00:01:06,540 --> 00:01:10,590 Peter McGregor: traditionally have struggled to find exposure to high quality unlisted 21 00:01:10,590 --> 00:01:14,399 Peter McGregor: assets in the sector, the opportunity to invest in assets that, 22 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:17,520 Peter McGregor: you know, traditionally have really been limited to only being 23 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:19,740 Peter McGregor: available to institutional investors. 24 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:22,319 Sean Aylmer: OK, so what sort of assets are you talking about? 25 00:01:22,350 --> 00:01:24,930 Sean Aylmer: We know the listed ones. Sydney Airport, obviously a big one, 26 00:01:25,030 --> 00:01:28,110 Sean Aylmer: and that's had a takeover bid from the super funds recently. 27 00:01:28,290 --> 00:01:30,030 Sean Aylmer: But what sort of assets are you talking about? 28 00:01:30,270 --> 00:01:32,280 Peter McGregor: So we're across a range of assets in a range 29 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:37,619 Peter McGregor: of sectors. Our name TRUE infrastructure is an abbreviation of transport, renewables, 30 00:01:37,620 --> 00:01:40,620 Peter McGregor: utilities and energy. And those are the four subsectors we're 31 00:01:40,620 --> 00:01:45,390 Peter McGregor: invested into. So the largest sub-asset class within our portfolio 32 00:01:45,390 --> 00:01:49,830 Peter McGregor: is renewables. We're a very significant wind farm investor. We 33 00:01:49,830 --> 00:01:54,690 Peter McGregor: also invest in a range of utility power generation and 34 00:01:54,690 --> 00:01:57,660 Peter McGregor: transport assets, particularly in the seaports sector. 35 00:01:58,110 --> 00:02:01,440 Sean Aylmer: OK, so just before we get into those transport, renewables, 36 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:04,950 Sean Aylmer: utilities and energy and where you're going down that greener path, 37 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:09,660 Sean Aylmer: what is it about infrastructure that attracts investors at the moment? 38 00:02:09,669 --> 00:02:11,519 Sean Aylmer: Why is it such a hot asset class? 39 00:02:12,150 --> 00:02:14,910 Peter McGregor: Great question. Look, it's a hot asset class for a 40 00:02:14,910 --> 00:02:18,000 Peter McGregor: couple of reasons. One is there is, I think, a 41 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:21,359 Peter McGregor: growing recognition that this is an asset class ideally suited 42 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,810 Peter McGregor: to the superannuation market and the superannuation funds, be they 43 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:32,399 Peter McGregor: the larger institutional superannuation funds or individual self-managed superannuation funds. 44 00:02:32,730 --> 00:02:36,810 Peter McGregor: And that really reflects the fact that superannuation funds, by 45 00:02:36,810 --> 00:02:39,600 Peter McGregor: their nature, you know, have a very, very long term 46 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:43,680 Peter McGregor: liability profile. They exist to pay out their beneficiaries over 47 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:46,500 Peter McGregor: a very, very long period of time. So the nature 48 00:02:46,500 --> 00:02:49,200 Peter McGregor: of infrastructure as an asset class, which is all about very, 49 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:54,959 Peter McGregor: very long time low volatility, defensive growth profile just fits really, 50 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:58,290 Peter McGregor: really well as an asset class to match those liabilities 51 00:02:58,290 --> 00:03:02,340 Peter McGregor: for superannuation investors. So that's been driving a lot of demand. 52 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,730 Peter McGregor: The other issue that's really starting to emerge as a theme, 53 00:03:05,730 --> 00:03:09,359 Peter McGregor: of course, is inflation in the Australian marketplace and globally. 54 00:03:09,900 --> 00:03:13,950 Peter McGregor: And again, by their nature, infrastructure assets as a very, 55 00:03:13,950 --> 00:03:17,970 Peter McGregor: very general statement, often have a significant inflation hedge built 56 00:03:17,970 --> 00:03:19,619 Peter McGregor: into them by their revenue streams. 57 00:03:20,130 --> 00:03:22,650 Sean Aylmer: Okay, so just breaking that down, what you're talking about 58 00:03:22,650 --> 00:03:26,040 Sean Aylmer: is that often these are government regulated income streams to 59 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:29,250 Sean Aylmer: some extent. And some of those, of course, are linked 60 00:03:29,250 --> 00:03:31,110 Sean Aylmer: to inflation. Is that kind of what you mean by that? 61 00:03:31,470 --> 00:03:34,279 Peter McGregor: That's absolutely right. Whether they be regulated or whether they 62 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,080 Peter McGregor: would be subject to long term contracts, generally, there will 63 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:41,520 Peter McGregor: be an inflation trigger in those revenue streams. So, for example, 64 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:43,920 Peter McGregor: if we look at our own portfolio in excess of 65 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:47,369 Peter McGregor: 90 per cent of the investments in the portfolio have 66 00:03:47,370 --> 00:03:51,030 Peter McGregor: some form or another of inflation hedge within their revenue streams. 67 00:03:51,060 --> 00:03:51,540 Sean Aylmer: Okay. 68 00:03:51,550 --> 00:03:55,740 Peter McGregor: So that provides a very, very effective mitigator against the 69 00:03:55,740 --> 00:03:58,230 Peter McGregor: risk of inflation, which obviously has and can have a 70 00:03:58,230 --> 00:04:00,270 Peter McGregor: significant impact on certain asset classes. 71 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:05,430 Sean Aylmer: Okay, so bringing you back to TRUE Infrastructure, transport, renewables, utilities, energy, 72 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:10,200 Sean Aylmer: green infrastructure certainly seems to be flavour of the month 73 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:12,630 Sean Aylmer: and perhaps the year and perhaps the decade. And if 74 00:04:12,630 --> 00:04:14,700 Sean Aylmer: you look at what sort of outside the infrastructure, what 75 00:04:14,700 --> 00:04:16,920 Sean Aylmer: BHP did last week, for example, with what some of 76 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:19,349 Sean Aylmer: those big global oil and gas companies are doing to 77 00:04:19,350 --> 00:04:23,850 Sean Aylmer: become greener, and then certainly around the big super companies 78 00:04:23,850 --> 00:04:26,850 Sean Aylmer: trying to take over Sydney Airport, that area that you're 79 00:04:26,850 --> 00:04:29,160 Sean Aylmer: working in. Why is that so important at the moment? 80 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:33,150 Peter McGregor: Yeah, look, again, great question. At the end of the day, 81 00:04:33,150 --> 00:04:35,310 Peter McGregor: I think there's a recognition that the world is changing. 82 00:04:35,310 --> 00:04:37,380 Peter McGregor: And I know that's a very, very big statement to make. 83 00:04:37,380 --> 00:04:39,870 Peter McGregor: But at the end of the day, people are looking 84 00:04:39,870 --> 00:04:43,530 Peter McGregor: for investment portfolios that are very, very forward looking and 85 00:04:43,529 --> 00:04:47,670 Peter McGregor: take advantage of future opportunities. And there is a recognition 86 00:04:47,670 --> 00:04:51,870 Peter McGregor: that going forward, investment in renewables is going to be 87 00:04:51,870 --> 00:04:56,370 Peter McGregor: both an enormous opportunity and also a very, very significant 88 00:04:56,370 --> 00:05:00,090 Peter McGregor: sort of underlying factor in the broader economy. So we 89 00:05:00,089 --> 00:05:03,870 Peter McGregor: see amongst our investor base a real desire to get exposure 90 00:05:03,870 --> 00:05:08,130 Peter McGregor: to high-quality renewable energy assets. And in fact, we see 91 00:05:08,130 --> 00:05:12,450 Peter McGregor: our portfolio evolving over time to the point where, as 92 00:05:12,450 --> 00:05:16,380 Peter McGregor: I mentioned, it's currently the largest subset within our portfolio 93 00:05:16,380 --> 00:05:19,710 Peter McGregor: in terms of the four sectors I talked about. We 94 00:05:19,710 --> 00:05:22,229 Peter McGregor: see that growing very, very significantly going forward to the 95 00:05:22,230 --> 00:05:26,010 Peter McGregor: point where, you know, we expect longer-term down the track, 96 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:30,690 Peter McGregor: our portfolio to be very, very significantly invested in the sector. 97 00:05:31,050 --> 00:05:34,650 Sean Aylmer: So you mentioned wind farms. Is that a big business 98 00:05:34,650 --> 00:05:35,820 Sean Aylmer: in Australia? Wind farms? 99 00:05:36,540 --> 00:05:38,760 Peter McGregor: Look, it's big and it's growing. It is certainly the 100 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:43,950 Peter McGregor: largest of the various different renewable technologies in Australia. We 101 00:05:43,950 --> 00:05:47,610 Peter McGregor: see ourselves as being, in a sense, technology agnostic. 102 00:05:47,790 --> 00:05:48,420 Sean Aylmer: Yep. Yep. 103 00:05:48,420 --> 00:05:51,960 Peter McGregor: That for us, it's really about the risk-return profile, the 104 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:55,950 Peter McGregor: structure of the contracts, the counterparties, those sort of considerations, 105 00:05:55,950 --> 00:06:00,630 Peter McGregor: as opposed to the technology itself. But we found historically 106 00:06:00,630 --> 00:06:04,350 Peter McGregor: the wind farms is where the opportunities have been. We're 107 00:06:04,350 --> 00:06:07,830 Peter McGregor: starting to see an increasing range of opportunities across the 108 00:06:07,830 --> 00:06:12,060 Peter McGregor: solar space and across the batteries and hydrogen space. But 109 00:06:12,060 --> 00:06:15,570 Peter McGregor: there in some ways, it's early days with those technologies. 110 00:06:15,570 --> 00:06:18,000 Peter McGregor: And wind farms are certainly, you know, where the opportunities 111 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:19,260 Peter McGregor: have been historically for us. 112 00:06:19,710 --> 00:06:22,290 Sean Aylmer: When you have the Andrew Forrest's of the world spending 113 00:06:22,290 --> 00:06:26,250 Sean Aylmer: so much money in hydrogen in his instance, but into 114 00:06:26,250 --> 00:06:29,400 Sean Aylmer: renewable energy, it must give the whole sector a bit 115 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:30,060 Sean Aylmer: of a kick along? 116 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:35,490 Peter McGregor: It does. Absolutely. And it shows great leadership, I think, because, again, 117 00:06:35,490 --> 00:06:39,120 Peter McGregor: it's early days for that technology in many ways. And 118 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:42,090 Peter McGregor: I think the more investment into that sector, the more 119 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:46,080 Peter McGregor: it effectively becomes self-fulfilling. The more there is investment in 120 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:48,119 Peter McGregor: the sector, the more there'll be opportunities to invest in 121 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:48,570 Peter McGregor: the sector. 122 00:06:49,110 --> 00:06:50,910 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Peter. We'll be back in a minute. 123 00:06:55,930 --> 00:06:58,659 Sean Aylmer: My guest this morning is Peter McGregor, the co-founder of 124 00:06:58,660 --> 00:07:02,409 Sean Aylmer: TRUE Infrastructure. OK, so we have the renewables, what you 125 00:07:02,410 --> 00:07:05,560 Sean Aylmer: just said about what TRUE does and where your expertise 126 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:09,910 Sean Aylmer: is around the contracts, the financing, the valuation, that type 127 00:07:09,910 --> 00:07:10,540 Sean Aylmer: of area. 128 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:11,050 Peter McGregor: Yeah. 129 00:07:11,110 --> 00:07:13,480 Sean Aylmer: I want to invest in green. Personally, I think it's 130 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:16,900 Sean Aylmer: a great option to do that. And I can go and, 131 00:07:16,900 --> 00:07:19,750 Sean Aylmer: you know, invest in battery metals, companies like Orocobre and 132 00:07:19,750 --> 00:07:22,600 Sean Aylmer: Pilbara and those sorts of things. I think infrastructure is 133 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:24,760 Sean Aylmer: a great play for all the reasons you've talked about. 134 00:07:25,330 --> 00:07:27,760 Sean Aylmer: The thing I'm scared about is how do I know 135 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:31,060 Sean Aylmer: whether there's rigour around contracts? How do I know whether 136 00:07:31,270 --> 00:07:34,840 Sean Aylmer: actually investing at that valuation is worth it or not? 137 00:07:34,900 --> 00:07:37,150 Sean Aylmer: And I suppose that's the sort of discipline you're bringing 138 00:07:37,150 --> 00:07:37,420 Sean Aylmer: to it. 139 00:07:38,020 --> 00:07:42,250 Peter McGregor: Look, it is. We're also very, very focused on investing 140 00:07:42,250 --> 00:07:44,720 Peter McGregor: at the lower-risk end of the spectrum. I mean, there's 141 00:07:44,740 --> 00:07:49,420 Peter McGregor: obviously a whole range of potential contractual arrangements that range 142 00:07:49,420 --> 00:07:52,600 Peter McGregor: from the investor bearing the full what we call merchant risk, 143 00:07:53,260 --> 00:07:56,650 Peter McGregor: bearing the full risk on both demand and price. At 144 00:07:56,650 --> 00:07:58,210 Peter McGregor: the other end of the spectrum, and this is where 145 00:07:58,210 --> 00:08:02,680 Peter McGregor: we sit, it's really about a counterparty to the offtake 146 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:07,330 Peter McGregor: agreement taking effectively that demand and price risk. So in essence, 147 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:10,300 Peter McGregor: our focus is on investing on assets where that risk 148 00:08:10,300 --> 00:08:14,260 Peter McGregor: is taken by the counterparty rather than by us. So 149 00:08:14,260 --> 00:08:17,200 Peter McGregor: we get a very, very low volatility... 150 00:08:17,230 --> 00:08:17,900 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. Yeah. 151 00:08:18,010 --> 00:08:21,610 Peter McGregor: ...revenue stream as opposed to being exposed to movements in 152 00:08:21,610 --> 00:08:24,250 Peter McGregor: the market price or movements in demand and output. 153 00:08:24,740 --> 00:08:27,730 Sean Aylmer: Okay. And so what sort of people are, I know you've 154 00:08:27,730 --> 00:08:31,240 Sean Aylmer: told us who TRUE Infrastructure is targeting, are you getting 155 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:34,570 Sean Aylmer: many of those self-managed super funds and high net worth individuals? 156 00:08:34,809 --> 00:08:37,030 Sean Aylmer: They're interested in the asset class and getting involved? 157 00:08:37,510 --> 00:08:41,620 Peter McGregor: Absolutely. Yeah. And look, it's early days for us, but 158 00:08:41,620 --> 00:08:44,920 Peter McGregor: we've been very, very pleased with the demand so far. 159 00:08:45,490 --> 00:08:49,540 Peter McGregor: And as I say, the whole renewable theme and an 160 00:08:49,540 --> 00:08:52,150 Peter McGregor: ability to tap into that growing asset class really seems 161 00:08:52,150 --> 00:08:54,819 Peter McGregor: to have struck a chord with the investor base. And 162 00:08:55,330 --> 00:08:58,179 Peter McGregor: we're very, very pleased with how the fund's gone so far, 163 00:08:58,179 --> 00:09:02,020 Peter McGregor: both in a performance sense and a fundraising sense. And, 164 00:09:02,470 --> 00:09:04,270 Peter McGregor: you know, we're looking forward to that continuing. 165 00:09:04,690 --> 00:09:06,670 Sean Aylmer: And, of course, the 64 dollar question is, what do 166 00:09:06,670 --> 00:09:08,860 Sean Aylmer: you think global inflation is going to do? Because as 167 00:09:08,860 --> 00:09:12,849 Sean Aylmer: we started out, you explained that infrastructure is very important. 168 00:09:12,850 --> 00:09:15,130 Sean Aylmer: When you think you're in an inflationary environment, what do 169 00:09:15,130 --> 00:09:15,969 Sean Aylmer: you think's going to happen? 170 00:09:16,540 --> 00:09:19,780 Peter McGregor: Yeah, really, really great question, because it's a real talking 171 00:09:19,780 --> 00:09:21,760 Peter McGregor: point at the moment. Look, there's no doubt right now 172 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:25,240 Peter McGregor: that inflation is real. We've seen that in the most 173 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:29,559 Peter McGregor: recent quarterly CPI (Consumer Price Index) data, which indicates inflation is running I think at 3.8 174 00:09:30,340 --> 00:09:34,030 Peter McGregor: per cent in Australia at the moment, which is certainly 175 00:09:34,030 --> 00:09:37,059 Peter McGregor: the highest it's been for a long, long time pre-COVID. 176 00:09:37,970 --> 00:09:41,059 Peter McGregor: The big question is to what extent that's a re-emergence 177 00:09:41,059 --> 00:09:45,050 Peter McGregor: of structural inflation in the economy versus whether it reflects 178 00:09:45,050 --> 00:09:49,940 Peter McGregor: some sort of short term supply chain issues probably related 179 00:09:49,940 --> 00:09:52,880 Peter McGregor: to COVID. And my sense, to be frank, is it's 180 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:56,660 Peter McGregor: more the latter. But I do think post COVID, when 181 00:09:56,660 --> 00:10:00,020 Peter McGregor: we move back into a more normal world, I don't 182 00:10:00,020 --> 00:10:04,579 Peter McGregor: see signs of inflation being a material longer-term problem. But 183 00:10:04,580 --> 00:10:06,980 Peter McGregor: I do think for the next 12 to 24 months, 184 00:10:06,980 --> 00:10:09,410 Peter McGregor: it's going to be a reality both here and globally. 185 00:10:09,830 --> 00:10:11,720 Sean Aylmer: And just a very quick one before I let you go, Peter. 186 00:10:12,620 --> 00:10:14,870 Sean Aylmer: I mean, I've certainly spoken a lot about and you 187 00:10:14,870 --> 00:10:18,199 Sean Aylmer: read a lot about the Joe Biden's infrastructure package, which was, 188 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:21,050 Sean Aylmer: you know, a US one trillion dollars. There's a massive 189 00:10:21,050 --> 00:10:23,150 Sean Aylmer: one last week out of India. I think it was 190 00:10:23,150 --> 00:10:27,890 Sean Aylmer: $1.35 trillion dollars over a decade or something or other. Those sorts 191 00:10:27,890 --> 00:10:31,760 Sean Aylmer: of packages, do they make any difference? Can you invest overseas? 192 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:34,010 Sean Aylmer: I suppose? Can you take advantage of those sorts of things? 193 00:10:34,250 --> 00:10:37,100 Sean Aylmer: Does it actually end up having a flow-on effect in 194 00:10:37,100 --> 00:10:39,199 Sean Aylmer: other parts of the world when all this money's going 195 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:42,830 Sean Aylmer: into infrastructure? I'm just wondering whether that has any effect 196 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:44,300 Sean Aylmer: really on Australia. 197 00:10:45,140 --> 00:10:47,599 Peter McGregor: So I think the effect on Australia, to be honest, 198 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:48,890 Peter McGregor: is more indirect. 199 00:10:49,190 --> 00:10:49,390 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. 200 00:10:49,730 --> 00:10:51,920 Peter McGregor: At the end of the day, our mandate allows us 201 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:54,620 Peter McGregor: to invest internationally and we have a small part of 202 00:10:54,620 --> 00:10:58,940 Peter McGregor: the portfolio invested with ATLAS Infrastructure who are a global infrastructure 203 00:10:58,940 --> 00:11:03,650 Peter McGregor: securities investor. We think, you know, the core portfolio, which 204 00:11:03,950 --> 00:11:07,550 Peter McGregor: is prudently invested through infrastructure capital group, we think the 205 00:11:07,550 --> 00:11:10,339 Peter McGregor: pipeline of opportunities in Australia is enough to keep us 206 00:11:10,340 --> 00:11:11,780 Peter McGregor: occupied in the medium term. 207 00:11:12,230 --> 00:11:12,500 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. 208 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:15,500 Peter McGregor: But having said that, I do think we are clearly 209 00:11:15,500 --> 00:11:19,310 Peter McGregor: moving to a point of global alignment on the need 210 00:11:19,309 --> 00:11:22,490 Peter McGregor: to address climate change and the need to put in 211 00:11:22,490 --> 00:11:28,250 Peter McGregor: place globally consistent policies to address the issue. And ultimately, 212 00:11:28,250 --> 00:11:32,240 Peter McGregor: that's positive and we think will drive further opportunities both 213 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:33,770 Peter McGregor: domestically and globally. 214 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:35,870 Sean Aylmer: Peter, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 215 00:11:36,170 --> 00:11:37,850 Peter McGregor: My pleasure, Sean. Thanks again for having me. 216 00:11:38,179 --> 00:11:41,570 Sean Aylmer: That was Peter McGregor, the co-founder of TRUE Infrastructure. This 217 00:11:41,570 --> 00:11:43,820 Sean Aylmer: is a Fear and Greed Daily Interview. Join me every 218 00:11:43,820 --> 00:11:46,040 Sean Aylmer: morning for the full Fear and Greed podcast with all 219 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:49,130 Sean Aylmer: the business news you need to know. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy 220 00:11:49,130 --> 00:11:49,520 Sean Aylmer: your day.