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Speaker 1: Approache production.

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Speaker 2: For the record.

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Speaker 1: I'm done trying to make you uncomfortable for the record.

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Speaker 1: You ain't trying to grow downy stuff.

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Speaker 3: For your for the record, laugh on me going all

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Speaker 3: the way for the record.

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Speaker 1: Ain't trying to link, no, trying to waste for.

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Speaker 3: The record, for the record, for the for the record,

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Speaker 3: for the record, for the record, record, for the record.

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Speaker 1: I'm don't try and make you uncomfortable.

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Speaker 4: You're in a one a half seld with two blokes,

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Speaker 4: but you can't even step off the bed to go

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Speaker 4: and have a piece in the noise. Yeah, but it's

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Speaker 4: so fucking disgusting.

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Speaker 5: Oh, it's not to that extent in New South Wales

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Speaker 5: because most of themselves. Look, most of the units have

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Speaker 5: built with some there was someone out, there were some

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Speaker 5: two outs, and depending on where you are you've been

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Speaker 5: a civil war, there's four hours and three hours. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: so it's not that bad. But the places say, for instance,

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Speaker 5: a pod was designed to house fifty guys, it's now

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Speaker 5: got eighty ninety guys in it, so it's crowded. What

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Speaker 5: we touched on earlier, like everyone's going through something, especially

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Speaker 5: in Roman, like the tensions are high. Living with anybody

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Speaker 5: is hard at the best of times. You know, like say,

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Speaker 5: compound that by a factor of a hundred. You've got

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Speaker 5: all these guys, eighty ninety guys creamed on top of

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Speaker 5: each other. Everyone's stressed out, dramas with the missus, drums,

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Speaker 5: with the kids, financial problems, legal problems. The place becomes

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Speaker 5: a pressure cook gun. And how often do you I

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Speaker 5: spent I've got extra time on my sentence for fighting

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Speaker 5: in jail, and that happens a lot. Guys will go

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Speaker 5: in for something, you know, six months, twelve months, so

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Speaker 5: they end up spending five years in there. Because people

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Speaker 5: might not think so, but if you have a fight

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Speaker 5: in jail, there's a good chance to get charged, especially

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Speaker 5: if you hurt somebody. And then you absolutely so yeah,

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Speaker 5: like you can. It's just one of the like you said,

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Speaker 5: it's a pressure cooker. You can't move. People stress living

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Speaker 5: on top of each other, and it's a fucking ugly,

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Speaker 5: ugly way to live. And like you go in there,

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Speaker 5: and you said, most recently for two months, But what

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Speaker 5: if you're going to I spent three years on remand

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Speaker 5: I was out for a short period of time before

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Speaker 5: I come back for another two So I spent the

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Speaker 5: better part of five years living like that, and you

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Speaker 5: get big charges, they can take two three years to

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Speaker 5: go through the courts. And in New South Wales the

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Speaker 5: bail law was tightened up in twenty fifteen, I believe

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Speaker 5: it was, and it's hard to get bail now, so

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Speaker 5: a good chance unless you've got unless you've got minor

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Speaker 5: charges or you've got a lot of money to put up,

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Speaker 5: you're probably going to spend your entire until you go

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Speaker 5: to court on remarks, So that can be two three

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Speaker 5: years time living in those conditions. It's fucking ugly.

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Speaker 4: Let's touch on that because this is a part that

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Speaker 4: is very important about your story.

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Speaker 2: And you know, we'll get into the book as well.

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Speaker 4: You've you've been arrested and made I've got to be

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Speaker 4: honest with you.

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Speaker 2: They're not small charges.

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Speaker 4: Your charges were very very serious charges, definitely double figure charges.

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Speaker 4: You weren't sort of in a position where you were

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Speaker 4: expecting to go home anytime soon.

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Speaker 2: How was that.

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Speaker 4: Let's for the listener just take them through that period

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Speaker 4: and what was it all about.

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Speaker 5: So the first time that I went to prison was

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Speaker 5: in twenty fourteen, and what you said, they were serious

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Speaker 5: charges or charged with the charge was special aggravated taken

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Speaker 5: to take so for those that they know, it's basically

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Speaker 5: a kidnapping charge. The accusation was that me and my

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Speaker 5: co accused detained somebody in their house, extorted them, done

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Speaker 5: some pretty bad things to Essentially, they said we tortured

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Speaker 5: the black for an extended period of time. So that's

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Speaker 5: at the top end of that that charge. So you

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Speaker 5: you know, the lawyers are telling us you're not going

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Speaker 5: to get any change out of ten, so you're looking

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Speaker 5: at ten years. On the bottom you get a good result,

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Speaker 5: maybe you get eight or nine. So that's stressful, Like

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Speaker 5: you're anybody that's not been into prison, like that process

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Speaker 5: is ugly. It's a very ugly situation. You've got the

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Speaker 5: police come and rage you, they rip you out of

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Speaker 5: your house. You go through the process of going through

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Speaker 5: the watchhouse and you're in the system and you think,

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Speaker 5: of funk, I'm going to be good chance it's going

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Speaker 5: to be for ten years. That's like you're having a

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Speaker 5: nights you light light down in your bed looking at

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Speaker 5: the roof, going, fuck, this could be me for ten years,

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Speaker 5: and it's stressful, and you like, we've already touched on

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Speaker 5: a couple of times, like you've got shit going on

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Speaker 5: at home, You've got a missus and kids and a mortgage,

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Speaker 5: and you know it's expensive less unless you've got nothing,

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Speaker 5: you're going to have to pay for your core case.

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Speaker 4: Just a lot of people don't realize is you know,

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Speaker 4: it's all good going out and playing the gangster or

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Speaker 4: doing whatever you want to do, but if you do

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Speaker 4: have a missus and you do have children, be sure

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Speaker 4: to understand that they are going to do the sentence.

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Speaker 4: If you're lucky enough to have your missus stick with

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Speaker 4: you for stars, or your husband, if you're a female

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Speaker 4: out there listening. But the reality is it's it's it's

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Speaker 4: so much harder for the family. You know you're in there.

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Speaker 4: You just want to buy up each week, and you

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Speaker 4: want to get out and have your phone call, you.

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Speaker 2: Want to exercise.

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Speaker 4: It's as much as it is stressful for us inside,

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Speaker 4: and it is you know, your brain just doesn't stop thinking.

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Speaker 4: But flip the coin and think about everything that's happening

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Speaker 4: outside with your loved ones, if you're blessed to have that,

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Speaker 4: and what they're.

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Speaker 2: Trying to do to continue to support you.

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Speaker 4: Whilst they're trying to live and keep a roof over

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Speaker 4: their own head and food on the table.

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Speaker 2: It's it is the do every day with you.

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Speaker 5: I do it. They do it harder because they're the

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Speaker 5: ones that are dealing with what's going on outside. Like

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Speaker 5: you said, you get to get your hundred dollars buye

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Speaker 5: up or whatever it is. That's life essentially, Like day

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Speaker 5: to day jail life is not hard. I don't want

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Speaker 5: to send the wrong message there, but there's not a

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Speaker 5: lot going on.

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Speaker 4: Stay out of the drugs and the politics and just

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Speaker 4: do your own jail and you get through well.

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Speaker 5: Things kick off from time to time and that is

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Speaker 5: stressful and that's that's the ugly side of it. But

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Speaker 5: for the most part, most days you're not doing much.

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Speaker 5: You might get up in the morning, you have something

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Speaker 5: that you train, make some phone calls, you get locked

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Speaker 5: back in. That's sort of your day. Like if anything,

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Speaker 5: the biggest battle you're going to have is just my numbing,

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Speaker 5: fucking boredom. Really, that's basically it is. But outside, your

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Speaker 5: family is still worrying about if you've got the mortgage,

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Speaker 5: how we're going to make ends meet. Now, the main

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Speaker 5: breadwin is in jail doing it tough. We've got legal

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Speaker 5: bills coming out of asks how we're going to pay

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Speaker 5: for them? Are we going to get to keep the house.

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Speaker 5: If your kids go to a good school, can we

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Speaker 5: afford to do that anymore? They're going to have to

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Speaker 5: change schools for some people. Just putting food on the

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Speaker 5: table now it's hard forget all that. It's just how

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Speaker 5: am I going to feed the fucking kids? So your

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Speaker 5: family absolutely serve every day of that sentence with it.

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Speaker 5: And you can't blame some you know, like people get divorced.

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Speaker 5: The women can't cop it anymore. Look what you've exposed

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Speaker 5: your family to. Look at the drama that you've caused it.

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Speaker 5: To bring it back to your original question, was you

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Speaker 5: know what was it like for me coming in and

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Speaker 5: my story, Well, the biggest stress that I had for

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Speaker 5: me was looking at ten years. But my son was

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Speaker 5: four years old at the time, so I was thinking, well,

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Speaker 5: if I do ten years, he's going to be fourteen

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Speaker 5: when I get out. That's his whole fucking childhood. So

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Speaker 5: I came in on serious charges the kidnapping case, and

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Speaker 5: I think, fuck this, you know, if it doesn't go well,

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Speaker 5: that's what I'm looking at. So in twenty fifteen, we

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Speaker 5: ran a committal hearing, which for those who don't know,

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Speaker 5: is basically just they test the evidence. It's like a

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Speaker 5: pre trial thing. So basically you're asked the prosecutor to

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Speaker 5: come to court and say, what do you got? Is

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Speaker 5: there enough here to continue on with the case to

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Speaker 5: go to trial. So in our case, we had an informant,

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Speaker 5: a guy making an accusation and he didn't show up,

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Speaker 5: which was a big part of their case. So off

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Speaker 5: the back of that, I got bail, and that was

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Speaker 5: in twenty fifteen, him not showing up, so I was

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Speaker 5: out for about six months and during that time. At

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Speaker 5: the end of that six months, I reoffended. I was

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Speaker 5: charged with a manslaughter and arson case. So again big

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Speaker 5: charges on their own. Now I'm back in twenty sixteen,

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Speaker 5: plus the original.

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Speaker 2: Ball of the exactly else.

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Speaker 5: Oh yeah, Well, in my head I was thinking fuck it,

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Speaker 5: now I'm looking at fifteen. Before I was I was

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Speaker 5: thinking ten's a lot. Well now I'm looking at fifteen.

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Speaker 5: This is the numbers I was thrown around in my head. So,

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Speaker 5: and the guy that died in that case was my

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Speaker 5: best mate. So we've done something extreme, fucking stupid and

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Speaker 5: it cost him his life. And so that was it

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Speaker 5: was a pretty traumatic experience for me and obviously for

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Speaker 5: his family and all our loved ones and friends. So

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Speaker 5: I went back into jail. I'm not now looking at

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Speaker 5: these fifteen years and thinking, well, now I'm not going

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Speaker 5: to get it to my son's almost twenty. But my

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Speaker 5: best mate just just died. His family are now without him.

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Speaker 5: He had a six month old daughter at the time

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Speaker 5: that he died, and I thought, this just weigh heaven.

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Speaker 5: I always just felt like the world's biggest piece of shit.

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Speaker 2: Really.

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Speaker 4: I was just about to say, your mindset, can we

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Speaker 4: touch on that for a secon because I think that's

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Speaker 4: really important, and you know, we talk about consequences for

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Speaker 4: our actions. And like you just said, you've put your

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Speaker 4: hand up. It was. It was a silly, you know,

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Speaker 4: thing that took place, a choice, bad choice, whatever. I

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Speaker 4: don't want to get into this two specifics of all

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Speaker 4: that matter. It's not something that I like to do,

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Speaker 4: but you know, it had as such a weighing impact

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Speaker 4: and on you. Even though that you're somebody here who's

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Speaker 4: been accused of being a part of this criminal activity

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Speaker 4: or crime, you are now sitting in a cell with

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Speaker 4: these thoughts in your head.

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Speaker 2: Not only have you lost your best mate, but everything

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Speaker 2: that comes with that.

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Speaker 4: Your own personal stuff, plus the outstanding matters that you're

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Speaker 4: already looking at attend for. How was that for you,

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Speaker 4: and give us a little bit of insight to where

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Speaker 4: your mind was and what it took to get your

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Speaker 4: mind back into a safe place.

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Speaker 5: Well, it was a dark place as obviously, very depressed,

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Speaker 5: traumatic experience, all the dramas going on legal wise, and

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Speaker 5: I just didn't want to deal with it, and I

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Speaker 5: didn't so up until that point, I hadn't use drugs

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Speaker 5: in jail. But I'm not dealing with this shit. I

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Speaker 5: can't deal with this shit. So I started using xanax

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Speaker 5: every day and using group every day. And the whole

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Speaker 5: idea was, I just don't want to think about anything,

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Speaker 5: I don't want to feel anything. I just want to

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Speaker 5: just get through because I was never suicidal. I've never

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Speaker 5: been suicidal. I've got a son. You just it's just

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Speaker 5: a no matter how hard things get, when you've got

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Speaker 5: a kid, that is not an option that's on the

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Speaker 5: table anymore. You can't quit them a life sentence exactly right,

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Speaker 5: And then they're going to have a fucking hard life.

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Speaker 5: Thinking that you didn't want to be there for them

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Speaker 5: and they went worth it and all the stuff that

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Speaker 5: goes with it. So that was never an option that

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Speaker 5: It never ended my head, but I was in a

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Speaker 5: dark place, that's for sure.

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Speaker 2: Can we just just for it?

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Speaker 4: And I mean, we know what bupies, we know what

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Speaker 4: the sort of drugs in jail, you know. So for

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Speaker 4: those that don't know bupes, it's buper.

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Speaker 2: And ole, isn't it. Actually, I don't know.

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Speaker 5: I think it's a very longmorphone or something like that.

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Speaker 5: It's got a long name that I.

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Speaker 4: And it's actually used to assist people with addiction, to

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Speaker 4: prevent them from using, but used in certain ways.

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Speaker 2: And it's especially if you're not someone who's had an

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Speaker 2: addiction to opiates and stuff like that. There is a

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Speaker 2: uphuric high you get from it.

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Speaker 5: Correct, Yeah, like any too like that starts to wear

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Speaker 5: off and it just becomes it's like you have coke

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Speaker 5: for the first time. It blows your fucking mind, and

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Speaker 5: then you know, after you've done it one hundred.

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Speaker 2: Times years, you still hunt for that. Oh, she's nineties.

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Speaker 5: I don't think nineties have been in Australia for a

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Speaker 5: long time.

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Speaker 2: I gotta laugh about it now where sober? Yeah?

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Speaker 5: Well, you know, well, so I think sometimes you just

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Speaker 5: like for probably for yourself and like me, sometimes you

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Speaker 5: just got to go down those path and figure out

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Speaker 5: the fucking hard way that it's not the way to

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Speaker 5: deal with things. But look, people like we touched on earlier,

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Speaker 5: sometimes people you know, they've got abuse and trauma in

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Speaker 5: their past and that they turn the drugs and alcohol

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Speaker 5: because they can't deal with it, and that's what leads

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Speaker 5: down that path, and it does. It's destructive. It's not

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Speaker 5: the right way to deal with things. But when you're

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Speaker 5: in that crisis type mindset, which is what I was in,

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Speaker 5: and a lot of people when they come to jail

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Speaker 5: find themselves in you just think, funk, I just need

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Speaker 5: to get fresies.

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Speaker 2: Did you have any support? When I say support, like

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Speaker 2: you're talking about a lot going on in your head.

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Speaker 2: You're carrying a fucking a lot of weight.

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Speaker 4: Let's not necessarily heat, it's a very personal thing. It's

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Speaker 4: now you know you're going to carry that burden for

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Speaker 4: the rest of your life. Yeah, was there any time

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Speaker 4: that you're able to seek counseling? And like, I know,

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Speaker 4: these answers but I feel that we need to give

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Speaker 4: these sort of information to those people out there that

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Speaker 4: don't really understand how bad the system is in there,

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Speaker 4: and that there is no help.

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Speaker 5: No, there's no help. And that's why I asked the

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Speaker 5: question that there are prison counselors and prison psychologists. I

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Speaker 5: remember putting in the form to see one, and after

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Speaker 5: fifteen months, I was saying, mate, you're still on the

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Speaker 5: list on the Yeah, yeah, you may as well just

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Speaker 5: wipe your ass with it. But yeah, there is none.

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Speaker 5: There is none, whether it's somebody that's going through crisis

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Speaker 5: or just sometimes people get a point where they go,

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Speaker 5: fucking I don't want to do this anymore, so they

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Speaker 5: might reach out looking to do courses. We're going to

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Speaker 5: speak to account ort to say, look, I want to

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Speaker 5: sort my life out when I get out. I need

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Speaker 5: maybe somebody can give me some guidance. There's none of that.

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Speaker 5: That's one of the things I talk about in the book.

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Speaker 5: One of the subjects is on recidivism and the system itself,

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Speaker 5: the prison system, the corrective services system. The name is

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Speaker 5: corrective that they're supposed to be wrecked our behaviors, that's right,

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Speaker 5: and guys do sometimes go to jail and think, you know, fact,

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Speaker 5: this is not the life for me. But it's not

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Speaker 5: through anything that the system implements. It's not like there's

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Speaker 5: courses available, psychologists to speak to pathways when guys get

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Speaker 5: out of jail, to say, look, we're going to put

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Speaker 5: you in touch with a few people that you can

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Speaker 5: talk to you when you get out. We're going to

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Speaker 5: help you find employment or maybe help you up skill

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Speaker 5: in some way. There's generally none of that.

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Speaker 4: Even Scott too just and I think this is really valid,

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Speaker 4: and people won't understand this that I've never been there.

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Speaker 4: You did three years on remand okay three years three

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Speaker 4: well there was more, but just sorry, just to ballpark,

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Speaker 4: just for the purpose of what I'm about to say,

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Speaker 4: those three years you could have possibly, if the opportunities

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Speaker 4: were there, educated yourself better.

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Speaker 2: You just betted yourself through different skill sets, whatever it

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Speaker 2: might have been.

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Speaker 4: What people don't understand is and they'll go, oh yeah,

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Speaker 4: but there is edu go no, when you're on remand

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Speaker 4: you get fuck all.

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Speaker 2: Now, three years is a long time of your life.

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Speaker 4: If you get someone comes in for six months or

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Speaker 4: you know whatever, I mean, any times a long time,

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Speaker 4: but six months you're not really you're still processing going

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Speaker 4: through the system. You're not going to settle down anywhere

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Speaker 4: and do a course. But when you've got three years,

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Speaker 4: you could do so much in that period of time.

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Speaker 4: But the way the system structured until you're sentenced and

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Speaker 4: actually have a CLASSO jail to go to, if they

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Speaker 4: have programs at that jail, and generally if you're an

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Speaker 4: A ror B, you're not going to get it all

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Speaker 4: you got STG or anything like that. You're getting shit.

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Speaker 4: You've really got to get to the C one C

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Speaker 4: to and then then wait even so like that's what

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Speaker 4: you know, Like there's a lot to answer for, isn't there?

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Speaker 5: Yes, Well, so look, one of my arguments is I

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Speaker 5: would say that look at we look at this from

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Speaker 5: our perspective through our own experiences, but if you look

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Speaker 5: at it through a general member of the public looking

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Speaker 5: at this scenario, I would think there would be an

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Speaker 5: expectation from them that when somebody comes into contact with

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Speaker 5: the system, the system makes an effort to correct their

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Speaker 5: offending behavior. I agree, and the issues that cause it

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Speaker 5: because there is usually something behind it. So somebody's made

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Speaker 5: it a they've committed offense while they were on the ice, say,

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Speaker 5: for instance, they're going to go, oh, fucking drug addicts,

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Speaker 5: they get you know, this is what they do. You

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Speaker 5: get what you get, okay, But why is a guy

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Speaker 5: on drugs? Some people that are on drugs for recreational

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Speaker 5: news and other people have got their running away from

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Speaker 5: something or whatever.

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Speaker 4: This is the majority of people are just absolutely broken.

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Speaker 4: That's why they've turned.

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Speaker 2: To the drugs.

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Speaker 5: So I would say that in those scenarios at the

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Speaker 5: general public, Joe Blow public would say, well, that person

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Speaker 5: receiving the help that they need for their issues, for

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Speaker 5: one that are causing the offending behavior, and to address

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Speaker 5: the actual offending behavior itself when they come into contact

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Speaker 5: with the system. Like you said, some guys coming for

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Speaker 5: six months and they might be their heads in the

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Speaker 5: clouds and they don't give a fucking okay, fair enough,

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Speaker 5: that's their choice, but they should be there for one

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Speaker 5: of the guys that want to need it, because there's

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Speaker 5: plenty of people that would love to do a course

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Speaker 5: when they first come in. For some people, coming to

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Speaker 5: jail is hitting the reset button. They're experience in trouble

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Speaker 5: with drugs, alcohol problems in their life, and maybe coming

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Speaker 5: to jail is the chances to put a stop to it,

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Speaker 5: hit the reset button, clean up for six months, say,

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Speaker 5: for instance, and get out, and if they had some

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Speaker 5: help along the way through counseling, through courses that address

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Speaker 5: their offending behaviors and the things that cause them, then

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Speaker 5: they might be able to continue on that path. Once

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Speaker 5: they're out, you know, they've hit the Some guys come

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Speaker 5: to jail and clean up like you. I'm sure you

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Speaker 5: would have seen plenty of it. The guys that are

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Speaker 5: just out in the street and they're a mass, and

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Speaker 5: they come to jail, they eat some fucking food, they

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Speaker 5: actually get some sleep.

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Speaker 4: They look a million dollars when they walk out the

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Speaker 4: gate again, and you sort of see them in another

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Speaker 4: six months when you're doing.

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Speaker 2: A big wack. You funk, what happened to you? You

377
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Speaker 2: walked there to be looking a million dollars? You come

378
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Speaker 2: out looking fucking slot forty five ring, but walk in

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Speaker 2: the yard of shuffler.

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Speaker 5: But look, I would just think that, you know, like

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Speaker 5: when people I think that's like, you know, you're showing

382
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Speaker 5: what you do, and you know the people that you

383
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Speaker 5: talk to and the whole you're drive behind it. It

384
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Speaker 5: will make a difference and it will make at least

385
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Speaker 5: some people ask some questions. You know, they might listen

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Speaker 5: to this and some way, Man, what the fuck isn't.

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Speaker 1: That photo record? Don't try and make you uncomfortable, photo record.

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Speaker 1: You ain't trying to grow downy stuff for.

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Speaker 3: Your photo record.

390
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Speaker 1: Lab on me going hard the way way, photo record.

391
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Speaker 1: Ain't trying to link, No, trying to wah stuff for

392
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Speaker 1: the

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Speaker 3: Record, for the reto record, for the right, for the racket,

394
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Speaker 3: for the ragge