WEBVTT - Inside the ‘white hands on black art’ saga 0:00:01.920 --> 0:00:05.200 I've worked with many of the artists and the art 0:00:05.280 --> 0:00:10.880 centers from the ap Wylands over decades now, and I 0:00:10.920 --> 0:00:15.040 had been made aware that they were working on a 0:00:15.160 --> 0:00:21.239 really ambitious project of major three by three meter paintings 0:00:21.680 --> 0:00:25.840 and that they were looking to build a community project 0:00:26.320 --> 0:00:31.040 and would seek venues later for this major project. 0:00:31.520 --> 0:00:34.800 Bruce Johnson MacLean is a weary person from Central Queensland. 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:38.320 He's an art curator. His role to work with artists 0:00:38.360 --> 0:00:41.080 to bring their vision to a wider audience. It's what 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:44.400 he's done for most of his life. In twenty twenty one, 0:00:44.440 --> 0:00:47.240 he was working at the National Gallery as Assistant Director 0:00:47.280 --> 0:00:50.160 of Indigenous Engagement when he heard about this project coming 0:00:50.159 --> 0:00:53.440 out of the ap Wylands in the Central Australian desert. 0:00:54.240 --> 0:00:57.800 It was called in Guapooka or Epic Country. He was 0:00:57.840 --> 0:00:59.360 excited to see what they were making. 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:04.640 They saw images quite early of the first I believe 0:01:04.680 --> 0:01:10.440 it was nine paintings that they produced. And the artists 0:01:10.440 --> 0:01:14.039 of the apy Lands are really well known for bringing 0:01:14.400 --> 0:01:17.160 a real vibrance and a real color to desert painting. 0:01:17.600 --> 0:01:24.560 So these desert paintings based on or informed by dreaming stories. 0:01:25.400 --> 0:01:30.000 In recent years, the apy artists have bought very contemporary 0:01:30.040 --> 0:01:32.000 ideas into desert painting as well. 0:01:32.440 --> 0:01:35.440 I've been fortunate enough to see some ap y in 0:01:35.440 --> 0:01:39.880 the flesh and up close, and it's exactly as you describe, vivid, 0:01:40.959 --> 0:01:43.800 seeing all the colors in the desert that you don't 0:01:43.840 --> 0:01:46.080 know that are there until they pointed out to you. 0:01:46.080 --> 0:01:48.920 You must have been tremendously excited at the prospect of 0:01:49.080 --> 0:01:49.960 exhibiting their work. 0:01:50.480 --> 0:01:54.080 I was really excited, and when we started seeing the 0:01:54.120 --> 0:01:58.280 actual works, I was blown away. This is a really 0:01:58.360 --> 0:02:02.240 kind of ambitious group of artist Many of them are 0:02:03.120 --> 0:02:06.600 you know, really well known in Australia but also internationally, 0:02:07.720 --> 0:02:11.600 but by the same sort of token. A lot of 0:02:11.680 --> 0:02:17.440 artists don't get recognized through a major exhibition until, you know, 0:02:17.520 --> 0:02:21.200 long after they're dead. So the artists really wanted to 0:02:21.240 --> 0:02:27.400 make this show to celebrate themselves and each other, you know, 0:02:27.480 --> 0:02:30.480 while they were still alive. So they took the initiative 0:02:30.480 --> 0:02:34.920 of building this exhibition, and you know, it is quite 0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:38.639 unique in the way that they've gone about doing it. 0:02:38.720 --> 0:02:44.680 They've just taken it all on themselves and then have 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:49.480 gone out and looked for partners in museums and galleries 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:52.359 who might want to show that body of work. 0:02:53.639 --> 0:02:56.400 Bruce wanted to be that partner and good to Pooker 0:02:56.520 --> 0:02:59.000 was one of the largest and most significant First Nations 0:02:59.000 --> 0:03:02.799 community driven art projects to have ever been developed. He 0:03:02.919 --> 0:03:04.960 jumped at the chance to work with them and bring 0:03:05.000 --> 0:03:07.680 their art to a massive audience at the National Gallery 0:03:07.760 --> 0:03:09.120 of Australia. 0:03:09.240 --> 0:03:13.120 So the exhibition itself was partially on the walls. It 0:03:13.200 --> 0:03:18.720 was probably seventy eighty percent installed. When the stories started 0:03:18.720 --> 0:03:22.000 coming out and everything sort of stopped. A Holt was 0:03:22.000 --> 0:03:22.760 put on the show. 0:03:23.360 --> 0:03:27.079 This is the biggest scandal to rock the Indigenous art 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:33.280 world in years, accusations of white hands interfering with Aboriginal art. 0:03:33.760 --> 0:03:36.080 In a front page story in the weeknd Australian was 0:03:36.120 --> 0:03:39.680 the headline white hands on prized Black paintings from the 0:03:39.720 --> 0:03:43.520 ap Wylands. It may claims the white studio staff were 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:47.440 interfering with Indigenous artworks in a significant way and sparked 0:03:47.440 --> 0:03:50.120 a media campaign and a horror year for the collective. 0:03:54.200 --> 0:03:58.000 From Schwartz Media, I'm Daniel James. This is seven AM 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:02.760 Today curated Bruce John MacLean and reported Gabriela Koslovich on 0:04:02.800 --> 0:04:06.120 the ap Y Art scandal and the complicated question of 0:04:06.160 --> 0:04:12.400 authenticity in the Aboriginal art world. It's Friday, August thirty, 0:04:17.200 --> 0:04:20.479 Gabriela Koslovich. You've been looking into the whole saga around 0:04:20.560 --> 0:04:24.200 the Ingura Polka show and it really started with a video. 0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:26.400 Tell me more about what happened. 0:04:26.839 --> 0:04:30.719 Well, about two months before the Nuapulka exhibition was about 0:04:30.760 --> 0:04:36.200 to start, a video was leaked and stills from that 0:04:36.360 --> 0:04:42.000 video were published in the Weekend Australian, alongside an extensive 0:04:42.279 --> 0:04:47.479 front page story with the damning headline white Hands on 0:04:47.600 --> 0:04:53.640 Black Art, claiming that white staff were interfering with the 0:04:53.720 --> 0:04:56.000 work of Indigenous artists. 0:04:56.360 --> 0:05:00.520 And what design that I put on my painting and 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:05.760 then she would come along and then she would paint 0:05:05.839 --> 0:05:09.320 over it and then start backing in. 0:05:09.920 --> 0:05:14.400 And at the center of this story was this highly 0:05:14.520 --> 0:05:19.960 alarming video which showed two young white studio assistants busily 0:05:20.040 --> 0:05:24.479 working on and around a large canvas by First Nations 0:05:24.600 --> 0:05:36.840 artists yaraging young and then and one of the young 0:05:36.839 --> 0:05:41.200 white women, the art center manager, Rosie Palmer, is seen 0:05:41.360 --> 0:05:46.359 vigorously applying paint to the canvas in large circular shapes 0:05:46.440 --> 0:05:50.320 or rock holes, and discussing the composition of the work, 0:05:50.360 --> 0:05:53.760 for example, asking could it do with another rock hole there? 0:05:54.040 --> 0:05:57.280 Or is that going to be too circular? Do have 0:05:57.360 --> 0:05:57.840 another rock? 0:05:59.600 --> 0:05:59.720 Sir? 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:05.560 What? Probably good? 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:10.360 The artist is also there, you can see her out 0:06:10.360 --> 0:06:16.920 of frame. Nonetheless, this video seemed to be irrefutable proof 0:06:17.040 --> 0:06:21.720 that white studio assistants were overstepping their role. We later 0:06:21.839 --> 0:06:24.279 learned that a private art dealer and rival of the 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:28.000 Apy Art Center collective had paid an Indigenous man thousand 0:06:28.040 --> 0:06:33.000 dollars for that video. So it cast out on the 0:06:33.000 --> 0:06:37.320 success of this collective and the integrity of this collective. 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:40.960 The story became more or less a campaign against the collective, 0:06:41.600 --> 0:06:44.200 and more than seventy five stories followed, so it was 0:06:44.560 --> 0:06:47.320 really it became the art scandal of twenty twenty three. 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:52.440 Five indigenous artists and six former studio employees had alleged 0:06:52.520 --> 0:06:55.039 that there had been white interference. 0:06:54.440 --> 0:06:58.200 Allegations of quote, white hands on black art. 0:06:58.440 --> 0:07:02.280 The allegations which are the is that white studio staff 0:07:02.320 --> 0:07:05.880 that literally helped paint some of the works themselves to 0:07:05.960 --> 0:07:08.680 actually make them more appealing to white bars as a 0:07:08.720 --> 0:07:12.320 crazy amount of focus for any newspaper to give a story, 0:07:12.360 --> 0:07:15.240 let alone an art story. What was the content of 0:07:15.240 --> 0:07:16.880 those stories and tell me a bit more about the 0:07:16.960 --> 0:07:18.679 narrative that emerged from those stories. 0:07:19.080 --> 0:07:25.000 Yes, it was extraordinary and inordinate. The focus essentially was 0:07:26.120 --> 0:07:29.560 just bedding down these serious allegations that were being made 0:07:29.720 --> 0:07:33.960 about the Apy Arts Center collective that went beyond the video, 0:07:34.120 --> 0:07:37.960 and that alleged that white staff routinely were painting substantial 0:07:38.040 --> 0:07:42.679 parts of Indigenous artists' work, not just at Jolla Arts, 0:07:42.800 --> 0:07:46.400 which is where that video was taken, but also at 0:07:46.400 --> 0:07:51.240 the Adelaide headquarters of the Apy Art Center collective. There 0:07:51.280 --> 0:07:58.680 were also claims that of mismanagement by the ap Art 0:07:58.720 --> 0:08:05.520 Center collective and coercive control of Indigenous artists. Then there 0:08:05.520 --> 0:08:10.800 were stories about how these revelations had decimated the indigenous 0:08:10.920 --> 0:08:14.440 art market and they set off a chain reaction of 0:08:14.520 --> 0:08:17.720 investigations into the Apy Art Center collective. 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:27.200 You've got to keep in mind that to just forge 0:08:27.200 --> 0:08:29.920 your head with the exhibition while all of these stories 0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:34.360 are happening, means that these stories would have been the 0:08:34.400 --> 0:08:37.959 story of the exhibition, not the story of those works, 0:08:38.000 --> 0:08:40.760 not the stories that the artists are wanting to tell. 0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:46.520 So the decisions were made to essentially halt the exhibition 0:08:47.000 --> 0:08:52.960 until some more clarity could be gained and then the 0:08:53.000 --> 0:08:56.880 calls for inquiries and things began, and the exhibition essentially 0:08:57.160 --> 0:09:01.079 lost its place in the schedule, and I was then 0:09:01.280 --> 0:09:06.520 sort of postponed indefinitely or at least into clarity around 0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:12.240 all of these inquiries and different reviews have been finished. 0:09:14.160 --> 0:09:17.440 After the break the investigations and what they meant for 0:09:17.480 --> 0:09:30.079 the ap Y Art Center collective. There's a lot of 0:09:30.080 --> 0:09:32.719 people watch the video that was published by The Australian 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:36.040 and were shocked. What did you think when you saw it? 0:09:37.040 --> 0:09:40.280 People have their own ideas about what they think about 0:09:40.280 --> 0:09:42.439 abertinal art and how it should be done. But I 0:09:42.800 --> 0:09:46.560 would certainly label myself as a progressive in their space. 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:47.600 You know. 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:51.120 I want to see abatinal culture and progress and move 0:09:51.320 --> 0:09:55.240 and evolve, and I want Abortinal people to have all 0:09:55.280 --> 0:09:58.319 of the means that non Aboriginal people have in their 0:09:58.320 --> 0:10:01.839 space as well. So you I am very aware that 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:05.600 white artists and in urban based appisal artists have studio 0:10:05.600 --> 0:10:08.000 assistants that do quite a bit of this sort of 0:10:08.040 --> 0:10:12.120 work for them. So the fact that desert artists are 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:16.640 engaging in contemporary studio practice for me is not a 0:10:16.720 --> 0:10:20.560 shock at all, and I find it quite exciting the 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:26.240 idea that desert artists are wanting to use all of 0:10:26.280 --> 0:10:30.439 the opportunities that are available to them to progress their painting. 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:32.559 Right, because the claims are that this was interference in 0:10:32.600 --> 0:10:35.559 the making of this art. So how would you describe 0:10:35.600 --> 0:10:38.199 the way these artists used white assistance. 0:10:38.800 --> 0:10:42.600 There hasn't been a lot of direct involvement by I 0:10:42.600 --> 0:10:46.000 think white studio assistants in a lot of the works. 0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:50.240 There's some preparatory work, there's edging work, there's a bit 0:10:50.280 --> 0:10:55.040 of touching up of spilled things or untidy things. But 0:10:55.120 --> 0:10:59.920 this was probably one of the first instances where why 0:11:00.800 --> 0:11:04.680 studio assistants were directly assisting the artist. And it sounds 0:11:04.720 --> 0:11:08.520 really interesting when you say it like that, because these 0:11:08.520 --> 0:11:10.760 are people who are employed to assist in the studio, 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:15.199 to assist these artists. So if not assisting them, what 0:11:15.280 --> 0:11:19.040 are they doing there? That didn't bother me at all, 0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:23.280 but it shocked and outraged a lot of people in 0:11:23.320 --> 0:11:26.800 the industry. But at the same time, it was really 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:32.520 ignoring the artists. And you know, my conversations with the artists, 0:11:32.559 --> 0:11:37.200 with the managers of art centers, there was a real 0:11:37.320 --> 0:11:40.920 sense of frustration that nobody was listening to them through. 0:11:40.720 --> 0:11:49.320 It, Gabrielle, you said, the series of stories and the 0:11:49.320 --> 0:11:52.440 claims made in them went to a number of investigations. 0:11:53.240 --> 0:11:54.679 So what exactly unfolded? 0:11:55.120 --> 0:11:58.559 Within a week of The Australian's first story in April 0:11:58.640 --> 0:12:02.679 last year, the National Gallery of Australia launched an independent 0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:06.680 investigation into the collective, and this was headed by two 0:12:06.800 --> 0:12:11.080 prominent lawyers, whose team delivered a thirty four page report 0:12:11.160 --> 0:12:16.120 last August and found that the indigenous artists, without exception, 0:12:16.720 --> 0:12:19.600 had said that the paintings had been produced by them. 0:12:19.920 --> 0:12:24.400 The reviewers strongly rejected allegations that artists had engaged in 0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:28.520 cover ups or dishonest practice, saying those claims had no 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:32.160 proper foundation. But the following month, in May last year, 0:12:32.200 --> 0:12:35.400 the South Australian government announced its own review into the 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:39.160 management of the APY collective in partnership with the Northern 0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:41.240 Territory and federal governments. 0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:44.480 The South Australia and Territory governments have combined forces with 0:12:44.559 --> 0:12:48.439 the Commonwealth to launch an investigation into allegations of white 0:12:48.520 --> 0:12:53.479 people interfering with Indigenous art at the ap art Center Collective. 0:12:53.679 --> 0:12:56.720 There were also claims that the collective was not supporting 0:12:56.760 --> 0:13:02.640 a culturally safe, respectful and oropriate workplace for artists working 0:13:03.080 --> 0:13:05.720 on the Apy Lands, in the art centers there and 0:13:05.840 --> 0:13:11.959 also in the Adelaide studio. But this South Australian government 0:13:12.000 --> 0:13:18.120 appointed panel came back with no findings, and curiously, the 0:13:18.160 --> 0:13:22.679 panel did not deliver a written report. It did, however, 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:27.240 refer the matter to the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission 0:13:27.600 --> 0:13:31.760 and to the Office of the Registrar of Indigenous Corporations, 0:13:32.720 --> 0:13:35.840 and after looking at all of that material, the hble 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:39.360 C came to its findings that no breaches of consumer 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:41.480 law had been committed. 0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:44.680 So as we sit here, there haven't been any findings 0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:46.520 of wrongdoing against the collective. 0:13:46.880 --> 0:13:51.040 No, that's absolutely right, Daniel. After more than a year 0:13:52.000 --> 0:13:58.640 and after intensive investigations and scrutiny of this organization, nothing 0:13:58.679 --> 0:13:59.360 has come back. 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:04.640 Tell us what the swath of investigations, what kind of 0:14:04.679 --> 0:14:06.480 impact I've had for the APY Collective. 0:14:06.920 --> 0:14:09.120 Just before I go into that, I want to quote 0:14:09.559 --> 0:14:12.800 one of the ap y Lands artists, Selling Scales, who 0:14:12.960 --> 0:14:16.560 said last year that the APY Collective was the most 0:14:16.600 --> 0:14:20.480 scrutinized arts organization in the country and it certainly did 0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:24.240 start to feel like that it's been a terrible time 0:14:24.480 --> 0:14:28.320 for the collective and the whole saga wasn't great for 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:31.440 the indigenous art industry because in a sense, the whole 0:14:31.440 --> 0:14:36.400 industry was under a cloud and art collectors were ringing 0:14:36.480 --> 0:14:39.800 up the art centers on the Apy Lands and making, 0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:43.120 you know, wanting documentation to prove that their works were authentic, 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:47.720 and so forth. The organization lost its station, federal funding, 0:14:48.200 --> 0:14:52.920 its corporate sponsors pulled out. Sky Omara, the general manager 0:14:52.960 --> 0:14:55.760 of the Apy Art Collective, told me, you know, they 0:14:55.800 --> 0:15:00.000 were good, intelligent, talented women with integrity and an amazing 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:04.160 work ethic, and they were almost destroyed by these untrue stories. 0:15:05.040 --> 0:15:07.720 The collective has managed to stay open though, through the 0:15:07.720 --> 0:15:13.040 income of sales. Skyromara mentioned that sales increased last year 0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:17.200 by three hundred thousand dollars and she's still hopeful that 0:15:17.360 --> 0:15:20.920 the Nauapulka exhibition will go ahead someday as planned at 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:24.600 the National Gallery of Australia and that the paintings will 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:28.040 be bought by the gallery as as had also been planned. 0:15:29.160 --> 0:15:30.920 Gabriella, thank you so much for your time. 0:15:31.400 --> 0:15:38.000 Thanks Bruce. 0:15:38.040 --> 0:15:40.240 She left the gallery after the exhibition was put on 0:15:40.280 --> 0:15:43.720 ice did this Saga have any role to play in 0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:44.640 your leaving. 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:51.320 Yeah, definitely. I mean, you know, seeing this exhibition developed 0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:57.400 by community, seeing this incredible celebration of who they are, 0:15:57.640 --> 0:16:01.440 of their stories, of their art, and of themselves and 0:16:01.520 --> 0:16:06.200 each other, Seeing that not only postponed by the gallery, 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:11.000 but played politic with so big in the media, and 0:16:11.040 --> 0:16:15.040 it was a real gut wrenching feeling to not only 0:16:15.080 --> 0:16:18.880 see that happen, but to have to talk to artists 0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:22.880 about why that's happening. You know, that's all the opposite 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:25.800 of the things that I've dedicated my life to to 0:16:25.920 --> 0:16:31.120 celebrating culture, to sharing it, to sharing the joy of 0:16:31.160 --> 0:16:34.720 aberteinbal art and life that was kind of ripped away 0:16:34.760 --> 0:16:38.160 through a lot of that process. So absolutely that has 0:16:38.200 --> 0:16:40.400 some bearing on departing the gallery. 0:16:41.080 --> 0:16:43.440 What will happen to the Apy exhibition now? 0:16:43.600 --> 0:16:48.560 Brute? The Naurapook exhibition has always been owned by the community, 0:16:48.600 --> 0:16:51.680 by the artists. As I understand, they are talking to 0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:57.480 a few international partners about showing the exhibition in international museums. 0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:00.440 And one of the really exciting things that tap through 0:17:00.480 --> 0:17:06.080 that is that there are curators and spaces in places 0:17:06.200 --> 0:17:11.439 like the US who are really engaged with things like 0:17:11.560 --> 0:17:16.720 critical race theory, but also have experience of Murdoch media 0:17:16.760 --> 0:17:21.640 as well, so they are really keen to examine some 0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:26.960 of the pieces of this exhibition and of the coverage 0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:32.119 of this poul Saga through I think a really mature lens. 0:17:32.680 --> 0:17:35.679 So I think that's quite exciting that not only the 0:17:35.760 --> 0:17:38.679 art will be celebrated, but there will be a level 0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:45.680 of critical discourse around desert artists engaging in contemporary studio practice, 0:17:46.000 --> 0:17:55.040 around the intervention of the media into Indigenous art and 0:17:55.200 --> 0:18:00.040 art centers and Indigenous owned businesses, and an opportunity for 0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:07.840 community to present their story through these spaces that I 0:18:07.880 --> 0:18:11.080 think perhaps if it is shown in Australia, and I'm 0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:13.320 sure it will be shown in Australia at some point, 0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:18.800 a lot of the conversation will center around the media 0:18:19.080 --> 0:18:22.479 fewer or rather than the artworks. So I hope that 0:18:22.920 --> 0:18:28.400 there's an opportunity for some balance between those things, but 0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:34.600 also for a really mature critical discussion around what's happening 0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:35.560 and what has happened. 0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:37.760 Well, it might be the case of being one of 0:18:37.800 --> 0:18:39.560 those things that we don't know what we've got until 0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:41.840 it's gone. Bruce, thank you so much for your time 0:18:41.920 --> 0:19:01.159 really appreciate it. You're very welcome. Also in the years today, 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:04.200 protesters have displayed portraits of a twenty three year old 0:19:04.200 --> 0:19:07.359 asylum seeker who died on Wednesday after sitting himself on 0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:11.280 fire outside the Department of Home Affairs office in Malbourne. Manow, 0:19:11.320 --> 0:19:13.960 Younger Liningndham have been part of an active protest urging 0:19:13.960 --> 0:19:17.280 the Labour government to give permanent visas to asylum seekers 0:19:17.400 --> 0:19:21.239 stuck in Limbo since arriving by boat. Monow himself has 0:19:21.240 --> 0:19:24.520 spent more than eleven years in Australia on temporary bridging visas, 0:19:25.440 --> 0:19:27.880 and Senator Jackie Lamby says she will no longer run 0:19:27.960 --> 0:19:32.040 state candidates and Tasmanian politics. The announcement comes after two 0:19:32.040 --> 0:19:34.920 stadiumps We're kicked out of her namesake party, the Jackie 0:19:35.000 --> 0:19:39.720 Lamby Network and will now continue on as independents. Seven 0:19:39.760 --> 0:19:42.159 Am is a daily show from Schwartz Media and the 0:19:42.200 --> 0:19:45.919 Saturday paper. Is produced by Shane Anderson, Zultan Fecho and 0:19:46.000 --> 0:19:50.000 Zaia Tangra. Our technical producer is Atticus Bastow. We are 0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:53.679 edited by Chris Dangate and Sarah McPhee. Eric Jensen is 0:19:53.680 --> 0:19:57.040 our editor in chief. Our mixer is Travis Evans. Our 0:19:57.080 --> 0:19:59.240 theme music is by Ned Beckley and Josh Hogan of 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:03.600 envelope BOARDY seven Am was hosted by Ruby Jones and myself, 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:05.760 Daniel James. See you next week.