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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average persons never

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Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys, staid,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my chat with award

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Speaker 1: winning journalist Neil Mercer. Neil's been a crime reporter for

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Speaker 1: a long time, and there's also the author of the

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Speaker 1: book called The Kingping and the Crooked Cop, the story

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Speaker 1: of Nettie Smith and Roger Rogerson, partners in crime. After

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Speaker 1: part one, if we all feel a little bit dirty,

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Speaker 1: we've delved into a murky world. There's a lot that

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Speaker 1: happened in that time, isn't there now.

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Speaker 2: There's a huge amount that went on around Roger and

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Speaker 2: ned and the number of shootings, the number of robberies,

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Speaker 2: the number of court cases. You know, it's between the

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Speaker 2: two of them. There are people who were murdered, killed,

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Speaker 2: or disappeared. It's an extraordinary part of not just policing history.

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Speaker 2: I don't think it's. Part of the reason I really

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Speaker 2: wanted to try and pin a lot of this stuff

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Speaker 2: down is there's so much rumor and speculation and urban

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Speaker 2: myth and I think this is part of Sydney's history.

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Speaker 1: Well, it is Sydney's history. And there's a lurb for

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Speaker 1: the book and I'll just read it out because it

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Speaker 1: talks very much to what you just said. There are

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Speaker 1: multiple crimes were committed against the backdrop of a change

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Speaker 1: in Australia from the late seventies to the mid eighties,

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Speaker 1: as Australia's social fabric stretched to adapt to a more

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Speaker 1: global world and money and drugs poured into the country, police, judges,

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Speaker 1: and even the media were up for sale, and Rogerson

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Speaker 1: and Smith were the princes of this violent new world.

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Speaker 1: It sums it up pretty well, doesn't it.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely and Roger was and I've described him as such

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Speaker 2: as a prince of the city and he was untouchable.

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Speaker 2: And Ned, I mean, wow, you know, from that early

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Speaker 2: conviction he moves into heroin dealing in the late seventies.

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Speaker 2: He's in fact linked up with a very famous syndicate

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Speaker 2: that got picked up in Bangkok with eight kilos of heroin.

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Speaker 2: Ned was going to distribute some of that in Sydney.

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Speaker 2: He claimed at one stage to be Australia's biggest heroin dealer.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure that might have just been Ned sort

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Speaker 2: of embellishing the facts which he had, you know, he

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Speaker 2: was prone to do. But nevertheless, he was a big

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Speaker 2: figure in Sydney in the late seventies, mid seventies on

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Speaker 2: into the early eighties.

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Speaker 3: And I guess from a.

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Speaker 2: Public perspective, these two guys really come to prominence, in

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Speaker 2: my view, for the first time, to public prominence in

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty one, when by this stage Ned has been

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Speaker 2: Roger's informer for five years or well, they've got a

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Speaker 2: very close relationship for five years, and we have the

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Speaker 2: shooting of Warren Land Franchi.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, let's take it through that, because that seemed to

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Speaker 1: be the turning point, didn't it where people go and

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Speaker 1: hold that something's something that's a bit smelly.

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Speaker 3: That's right, and you know.

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Speaker 2: June twenty seven, nineteen eighty one, it's a Saturday afternoon,

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Speaker 2: just before three pm in Dangar Place, which is just

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Speaker 2: down from Sydney University. It's parallel to Cleveland Street, I think,

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Speaker 2: over the road from the Brittannia Hotel. Land Francie walks

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Speaker 2: in to meet Rogerson, apparently to try and do some deal.

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Speaker 2: Because Warren land Francie is a heroin dealer, he thinks

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Speaker 2: he's there to bribe Rogerson. Rogerson says and has always

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Speaker 2: always maintained that he was there to arrest land Francie.

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Speaker 2: And once again, the place is surrounded by very heavily

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Speaker 2: armed police, at least eighteen of them, so they are

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Speaker 2: police officers in cars. There's a couple of cops in

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Speaker 2: the pub having a schooner. We're about to have their second.

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Speaker 1: That's unusual.

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Speaker 2: Land Francie is shot dead. What we know for absolute

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Speaker 2: certain Royal Land Francie is shot dead by Roger Rogerson

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Speaker 2: just before three o'clock that Saturday afternoon. One shot goes.

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Speaker 3: Through the heart.

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Speaker 2: One is in the neck incredibly. Roger almost immediately does

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Speaker 2: a newspaper interview with the Sunday Time pograph good on

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Speaker 2: the reporter from the Sunday Telly. I mean, it's a

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Speaker 2: big scoop, but it's sort of portrayed.

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Speaker 3: In this way.

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Speaker 2: You know, Roger was walking the mean streets alone. Was

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Speaker 2: it a bit like high Noon? You know the Hollywood movie,

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Speaker 2: the old Hollywood movie. Oh yeah, it was a bit

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Speaker 2: like that, says Roger. You know, and there's this, I

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Speaker 2: guess image of the sheriff cleaning up the means, cleaning

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Speaker 2: up the mean streets. Yeah, he's on his own. Well,

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Speaker 2: he wasn't quite on his own. He had eighteen other

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Speaker 2: police around him and three others in the lane with him.

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Speaker 2: That first day is probably the only day he gets

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Speaker 2: away with it, because pretty much straight up in the following.

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Speaker 3: Days, there's a suggestion that.

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Speaker 2: Land Francie had ten thousand dollars on him to bribe Rogerson,

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Speaker 2: that he didn't have a gun, so Rogerson didn't shoot

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Speaker 2: him in self defense as he claimed. And it starts

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Speaker 2: to balloon from there, and Warren's girlfriend Sally and huckstep

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Speaker 2: goes on sixty minutes National TV makes some of these allegations,

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Speaker 2: and I went round I was working in nineteen eighty one.

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Speaker 2: It was the first crime story I ever really did.

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Speaker 2: Went to see Keith Lanfranchi, the father, and Keith tells

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Speaker 2: me that his son has been shot in cold blood.

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Speaker 2: It's because he's ripped off one of Roger's heroin dealers

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Speaker 2: a few weeks earlier, and that he's also been told

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Speaker 2: that rather than the shots in the lane way that

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Speaker 2: Saturday afternoon being fired in quick succession, as Roger had

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Speaker 2: told the Sunday Telly, the shots were twelve to thirteen

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Speaker 2: seconds apart, which opens up a whole range of possibility.

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Speaker 1: Changes dynamics.

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Speaker 2: It did, It did, and look the end result was

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Speaker 2: I guess that there was an inquest, you know. It

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Speaker 2: was unsatisfactory, to say the least, in that the land

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Speaker 2: Franchie family wanted to air a lot of allegations because

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Speaker 2: the person who drives Warren land Franchie to that fateful

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Speaker 2: meeting that Saturday afternoon is Ned Smith. The land Franchie

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Speaker 2: family and Sally Ane Hucksteps lawyers. They want to explore

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Speaker 2: Roger's relationship with Ned, you know, and also Ned's relationship

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Speaker 2: to Warren land Francie because Warren was selling some of

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Speaker 2: Ned's heroine. None of that is allowed. And you know,

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Speaker 2: Roger always maintained that Warren land Francie came in, he

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Speaker 2: was always going to be arrested, hence the police all around,

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Speaker 2: and that he pulled a gun and Roger got his

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Speaker 2: gun out first and fired those two fatal.

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Speaker 3: Shots or to the two shots that guild him.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Look, the inquest itself, the family thought it was

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Speaker 2: a farce and they had a point.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's other stuff and we won't go into

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Speaker 1: all the detail about the firearm that he was supposedly

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Speaker 1: carrying and all sorts of things, what he was wanted

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Speaker 1: for at the time shooting the police officer. It's murky,

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Speaker 1: and there's a smell about it, and it continues to

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Speaker 1: this day, doesn't it.

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Speaker 2: It does, But the smell is it started in pretty much,

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Speaker 2: as I said, within days, with all the allegations from

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Speaker 2: Warren's dad, from Sally and Huckstep. But you know, the

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Speaker 2: inquest found that Roger had shot him trying to effect

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Speaker 2: an arrest. And as you say, people still talk about it,

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Speaker 2: and look, it's unresolved in the public mind.

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Speaker 1: And I think, yeah, you said there was aideen police there.

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Speaker 1: I know the culture of policing. I know the pressures

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Speaker 1: of operations. I know how it works and the little

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Speaker 1: clicks if Yeah, if something untoward is done by Roger,

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Speaker 1: he can keep it very close to himself on what

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Speaker 1: he's intent is, because he just seemed to weave so

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Speaker 1: much power.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's exactly right.

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Speaker 2: I mean, there's no way that you know, you can

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Speaker 2: keep eighteen police quiet for forty years if it's something

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Speaker 2: untoward has happened and they've seen it. I mean, there

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Speaker 2: were civilian witnesses nearby. There are people over in the

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Speaker 2: pub who made statements. There are ambulance officers who arrived

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Speaker 2: within minutes of the shooting because their base was only

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Speaker 2: a kilometer away. It is the family has always said

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Speaker 2: Warren was murdered. The coroner said, or the jury actually

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Speaker 2: found that Warren was shot by Rogerson while he was

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Speaker 2: trying to affect an arrest. And the failure of the

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Speaker 2: inquest to me was not to call a lot of

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Speaker 2: witnesses who were then alive, who could have at least

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Speaker 2: been cross examined. He didn't want to know. He was,

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Speaker 2: in the parlance of the day, the magistrate at the

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Speaker 2: time was a policeman, not because he'd been in the cops,

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Speaker 2: but because he supported the police force. He was very

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Speaker 2: much on the side of detectives and he didn't like crooks.

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Speaker 1: And that's how we would talk quite often about judicial officers.

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Speaker 1: Now he's a police officer as in not the fact,

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Speaker 1: as you said, he wasn't in the police, but they

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Speaker 1: just proy police. That seemed to be all the shines

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Speaker 1: started to come off Roger after.

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Speaker 3: That, Yeah, I think so.

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Speaker 2: I mean, he had that twenty four hours of being

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Speaker 2: you know, Gary Cooper in high noon, but that's the

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Speaker 2: first time he really comes to public prominence, and it's

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Speaker 2: the first time Ned Smith really comes to public prominence.

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Speaker 2: By that stage, they've known each other since nineteen seventy six,

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Speaker 2: so they've been working on and off together in whatever

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Speaker 2: form that may take. But yeah, it's from that point

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Speaker 2: that they both become known. Because Ned is actually named

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Speaker 2: in State Parliament as the person who drove him there.

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Speaker 2: Roger's name is now bandied around. There's calls for a

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Speaker 2: judicial inquiry. Roger becomes too hot for the cob They

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Speaker 2: move him down to Darlinghurst and he's there for a

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Speaker 2: couple of years and eventually then other matters happen. There's

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Speaker 2: never a judicial inquiry into the land Franchi shooting. There

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Speaker 2: was a Supreme Court hearing or a court hearing at

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Speaker 2: least Keith land Franchi applied for a second inquest that

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Speaker 2: was knocked back. The judge was scathing of the case

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Speaker 2: and said there was nothing further to be done. The

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Speaker 2: inquest had been held. It was fair and that was that.

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Speaker 1: Okay, that's the system working, isn't it all the system?

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Speaker 1: Whether it's working, that is how the system operates. So

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Speaker 1: should say.

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Speaker 2: That's right, and you know it worked in Roger's favor

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Speaker 2: in that case.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Now we're going to get head where the shooting

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Speaker 1: of Mick Jury. Mick Jury was an undercover police officer

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Speaker 1: had been working undercover on some drug trades.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, mckdrury. This is by now Rogers at darling Hurst.

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Speaker 2: He goes there in eighty two. He Mick Drewy, as

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Speaker 2: you say, was involved in a drug deal down in Melbourne.

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Speaker 2: But as an undercover officer, he's trying to arrest a

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Speaker 2: guy called Alan Williams who's a big heroin dealer associated

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Speaker 2: with painters and Dockers and all that sort of stuff.

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Speaker 2: Williams is arrested. Drury, Michael Drew, the undercover cop, is

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Speaker 2: involved in the arrest of Alan Williams. The court procedures,

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Speaker 2: the trial procedures start to flow. Williams is desperate to

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Speaker 2: avoid a conviction. The only person who can identify him

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Speaker 2: from that drug deal that night is Mick Drury. He

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Speaker 2: tries to he wants to bribe Drury. How does he

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Speaker 2: do that? He's Melbourne based. Well, he's got a good

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Speaker 2: mate in Sydney by the name of Christopher Dale fl

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Speaker 2: because they've been through the prison system in Melbourne together.

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Speaker 2: He phones Flannery says, look, Mick Drury, just offer him

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Speaker 2: a lot of money, or do you know anybody in

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Speaker 2: there who can sort of in the cops, who can

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Speaker 2: help me get Mick Drury off my back? And Flannery says, yes,

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Speaker 2: he does.

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Speaker 3: He says he.

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Speaker 2: Knows a good cop by the name of Roger Rogerson.

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Speaker 2: So this is all in train eighty two, eighty three,

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Speaker 2: eighty four. Drury refuses point blank to accept a bribe. No, No,

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Speaker 2: I've identified Alan Williams as the man with the heroine

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Speaker 2: and I'm not going to change my evidence. They up

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Speaker 2: the offer to thirty five grand or whatever it was.

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Speaker 2: Drury remains steadfast. Then Alan Williams, the heroin dealer, starts

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Speaker 2: to think, geez, I'm in real trouble here, and he

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Speaker 2: comes up to Sydney. He meets with Rogerson and Chris Flannery,

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Speaker 2: and eventually there's a number of meetings. There's a number

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Speaker 2: of He comes up to Sydney. A bit long story short,

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Speaker 2: they have dinner one night, he says Williams, Roger Rogerson

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Speaker 2: and Chris Flannery, and Flannery and Rogerson knew each other,

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Speaker 2: and they come to an arrangement to make sure Mick

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Speaker 2: Drury doesn't make court. Alan Williams said he didn't know

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Speaker 2: how that was actually going to play out, but he

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Speaker 2: knew what that meant, and he was prepared to pay

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Speaker 2: one hundred thousand dollars for Drury not to make court,

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Speaker 2: to be murdered. And that's what almost happened. In nineteen

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Speaker 2: eighty four. Mick Drury's at home with his little kids

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Speaker 2: and his wife in his own house, in his kitchen

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Speaker 2: when he is shot through kitchen window and shockingly wounded.

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Speaker 2: He barely survives. I think is unconscious, near death for

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Speaker 2: like ten days. He eventually comes around and makes what

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Speaker 2: was then called Drew his dying deposition, and in that

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Speaker 2: he says, I think this is related to the job

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Speaker 2: down in Melbourne with Allen Williams. And I've got to

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Speaker 2: say that Roger Rogerson offered me a bribe to drop

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Speaker 2: off the case or to change my identification of Williams.

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Speaker 2: I refused it, and I think that's why I've been shot.

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Speaker 2: I'm shortcutting a lot of stuff here, Gary.

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Speaker 1: But now just on that point, with the dying deposition,

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Speaker 1: it's part of getting that that I believe I might

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Speaker 1: shortly die. This is the confession from a potential dead man.

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Speaker 2: He's hovering close to death.

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Speaker 1: So when you're telling something, you're telling something we've purpose.

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Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, I don't think. I don't think anybody apart

259
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Speaker 2: from Roger ever thought he made it up. Some people

260
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Speaker 2: were in two minds early on. I think later on

261
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Speaker 2: people have no doubt that mcdruy was telling the truth.

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Speaker 2: And he was shot because of that case.

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Speaker 3: And the.

264
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Speaker 2: Roger is charged in nineteen eighty four. I think it

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Speaker 2: is first with the attempted bribery, I mean, was this

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Speaker 2: was a bit of a I'm afraid to say a

267
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Speaker 2: bit of a dog's breakfast. The investigation into the shooting

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Speaker 2: of Michael Drury. I mean, it's a shocking thing that's happened.

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Speaker 1: It's serving police officers. Police officer attempted to be murdered

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Speaker 1: because of he's carrying out his.

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Speaker 2: Duties, carrying out his duties in his own home. The

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Speaker 2: investigation because it's Rogerson. I mean, people don't want to

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Speaker 2: believe that Roger could possibly be in in the attempted

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Speaker 2: murder of one of his own. The Commissioner of the

275
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Speaker 2: day is expressing dismay. So you've got two investigations running.

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Speaker 2: One was the investigation into the attempted bribery and one

277
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Speaker 2: was the investigation into the attempted murder of Drury. But

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Speaker 2: are they running parallel but not knowing what the other

279
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Speaker 2: one was doing. Look, Eventually Roger is charged with the

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Speaker 2: attempted bribery of Drury.

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Speaker 3: He gets off that.

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Speaker 2: A few years later, Roger's charged with the attempted murder

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Speaker 2: of Michael Drury. Because in those intervening years, Alan Williams,

284
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Speaker 2: the heroin dealer who's at the beginning of it all,

285
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Speaker 2: rolls over and says yeah, I was part of a

286
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Speaker 2: plot to murder Mick Drury, and I met with Roger

287
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Speaker 2: Rogerson and Chris Flannery, and I offered one hundred thousand

288
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Speaker 2: dollars to have it done. I didn't know how exactly

289
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Speaker 2: or when exactly it was going to happen. But he

290
00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:05,000
Speaker 2: pleads guilty to the attempted murder. He gets jailed. He

291
00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:10,360
Speaker 2: gives evidence against Roger, but you know, he's an ex

292
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Speaker 2: painter and Docker he's a bloke dealing in heroin, and

293
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Speaker 2: Roger's got this fantastic character.

294
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Speaker 3: And because.

295
00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:23,440
Speaker 2: The attempted bribery case had been run earlier and failed,

296
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Speaker 2: Roger was found not guilty. Some of that evidence in

297
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Speaker 2: that case. Because of the rules of the court, some

298
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Speaker 2: of that evidence in the first case could not be

299
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Speaker 2: used in the attempted murder case. So the prosecution was

300
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Speaker 2: in a way hamstrung. And also Williams he's a good

301
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Speaker 2: crook and he's up against Roger Rogerson.

302
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Speaker 1: How the cards might fall for Roger to Christopher Flannery disappears.

303
00:18:52,800 --> 00:19:00,800
Speaker 2: Yes, that's right. He disappears May nineteen eighty five, never

304
00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:03,680
Speaker 2: to be seen. So there's no way in the world

305
00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:06,560
Speaker 2: Chris Flannery can give evidence against anybody.

306
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Speaker 3: He's long gone.

307
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Speaker 2: Where he's gone, nobody knows. There is a long list

308
00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:15,959
Speaker 2: of suspects and Roger was one. But yeah, the suspects,

309
00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:18,800
Speaker 2: people who might have wanted to kill Chris Flannery. Was

310
00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,119
Speaker 2: a bit like a Melbourne cup Field, I think. But

311
00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:25,520
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, this long and involved saga,

312
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Speaker 2: the attempted the shooting of Michael Drury, which is really

313
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Speaker 2: one of my colleagues described it as a stain that

314
00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:35,520
Speaker 2: will stay with the New South Wales Police for a

315
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Speaker 2: long long time. And I think he's right. It's unresolved

316
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Speaker 2: because Roger gets off at all because.

317
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Speaker 1: He's this, you know, and there was suggestions, inferences or whatever. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think even that Mick got people went hard at him.

319
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Speaker 1: Why are you saying this? And yeah, like pull your heading.

320
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Speaker 2: Oh they tried various people and I think it was

321
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Speaker 2: Roger and with a bit help from NED, did their

322
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Speaker 2: very very best to blacken the character of Mick Drury.

323
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Speaker 2: And it was all it was all.

324
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Speaker 3: Crap, you know.

325
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Speaker 2: They made stuff up about oh he's having affairs, he's

326
00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:16,679
Speaker 2: doing all this, Oh he's corrupt, you know, it was

327
00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:21,760
Speaker 2: all garbage. It was pretty straightforward.

328
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Speaker 3: But yeah, he.

329
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Speaker 2: Roger doesn't survive this in a way, even though he's

330
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Speaker 2: found not guilty, because as all this is unfolding in

331
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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty four, as he's charged with the first one,

332
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Speaker 2: the attempted bribery of Drury, he is suspended without pay.

333
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Speaker 2: So effectively his last day in the New South Wales

334
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Speaker 2: Cops is November roundabout there in nineteen eighty four. He

335
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Speaker 2: suspended without pay. He goes on to beat the bribery

336
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Speaker 2: charge and the attempted murder charge and you.

337
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Speaker 1: Know, well reference a conversation we had off Mike the

338
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Speaker 1: time how divisive it was within the police because police

339
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Speaker 1: didn't want to believe that one of their own would

340
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Speaker 1: have organized to murdered Drury and a good friend of mine,

341
00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:12,480
Speaker 1: I won't mention his name, but the well respected detective

342
00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:17,000
Speaker 1: was supporting Roger or thinking that yeah, he's from what

343
00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:19,920
Speaker 1: I've seen of him, he's fine. But then they find

344
00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:23,760
Speaker 1: out that Roger when he's suspended, that there was an

345
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:26,360
Speaker 1: account that he had with one hundred and ten thousand dollars,

346
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Speaker 1: and the police that were loyal to Roger or just

347
00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:32,439
Speaker 1: loyal to the fact that he was a police officer,

348
00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:35,719
Speaker 1: were whipping around a fighting fund for Roger, and then

349
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Speaker 1: they find out that he's got this account exactly.

350
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Speaker 3: I remember that, and I like yourself.

351
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Speaker 2: I knew a detective at that time who I spoke

352
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Speaker 2: to him, and he said, I gave fifty or one

353
00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:53,000
Speaker 2: hundred bucks to Roger's fighting fun because I thought he

354
00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:55,760
Speaker 2: was innocent or you know, I wasn't convinced that he'd

355
00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:59,199
Speaker 2: done the wrong thing. And then they find out that

356
00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:03,359
Speaker 2: Roger as two bank accounts with a total of about

357
00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:06,720
Speaker 2: one hundred and ten thousand dollars in them. To say

358
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:10,600
Speaker 2: they're a bit pissed off the police that have been

359
00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:14,840
Speaker 2: putting in this money is an understatement. He lost a

360
00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:19,640
Speaker 2: lot of support, partly over Michael Drury and partly over

361
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:23,240
Speaker 2: that because there's all this cash in they're in bank

362
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:28,480
Speaker 2: accounts in false names. Roger says, oh, part of that

363
00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:30,800
Speaker 2: one hundred and ten grand belongs to a business friend

364
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,080
Speaker 2: of mine who's a bit of a gambler, which is

365
00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:37,560
Speaker 2: sort of handy because then you can't trace Spacehorse. And

366
00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:39,960
Speaker 2: also part of it comes from the proceeds of the

367
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:43,960
Speaker 2: sale of a Bentley that I've been restoring. Wow, you

368
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:49,920
Speaker 2: know nothing about Roger or ned is straightforward. I wish

369
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,879
Speaker 2: it was it. I must say sometimes I felt writing

370
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,960
Speaker 2: this book, I felt quite overwhelmed by the twists and turns,

371
00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:59,240
Speaker 2: and sometimes you could sort of find yourself in a

372
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:02,800
Speaker 2: hall of mirrors, going geez, hang on. I thought I

373
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:05,560
Speaker 2: understood what this was going on, and now I find

374
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:07,359
Speaker 2: out this what the bloody hell is going on?

375
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Speaker 3: Here?

376
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:10,119
Speaker 1: Where does the where there's the truth?

377
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:10,840
Speaker 3: Lie? Yeah?

378
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,360
Speaker 1: At what stage did that blow up? When I say

379
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:17,560
Speaker 1: blow up? I remember the interview, the Ray Martin interview

380
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,159
Speaker 1: on I think it was a Current Affair, was it

381
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,680
Speaker 1: or sixty minutes Current Affair? When Roger's come on that,

382
00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:26,400
Speaker 1: I feel like I need to defend myself.

383
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:30,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, because that was fascinating, Roger is suspended without

384
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:35,639
Speaker 2: paying eighty four he is going to be Finally in

385
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:39,000
Speaker 2: nine eighty six they decide to boot him out of

386
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:45,520
Speaker 2: the force. Those proceedings are about to happen. Roger goes

387
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:47,920
Speaker 2: on the offensive the front foot. He says, I want

388
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,240
Speaker 2: to go on Ray Martin. Oh sorry, I want to

389
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,320
Speaker 2: go on a Current Affair, which at the time was

390
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:54,760
Speaker 2: being hosted by Ray Martin.

391
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,919
Speaker 3: And he goes on TV.

392
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 2: It's pre recorded for legal reasons, but you know, I

393
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,320
Speaker 2: don't think he thought through what he was going to say,

394
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:11,480
Speaker 2: because a he names Lenny McPherson as a police informer

395
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,520
Speaker 2: and Need Smith as a police informer, which well, is

396
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:17,359
Speaker 2: a good way of getting somebody killed for a start,

397
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 2: but is not what a police officer should be doing

398
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:27,320
Speaker 2: on national television. But you know, he also says stuff

399
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 2: that is just unbelievable. Ray Martin says, have you ever

400
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 2: seen any corruption in the New South Wales Police Force?

401
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:33,560
Speaker 3: No?

402
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 2: No, ever had any dealings with a corrupt police officer. No, no,

403
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:39,760
Speaker 2: I've never met a corrupt police officer in my life.

404
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:42,399
Speaker 2: And if he was looking for public support or to

405
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 2: win over public sympathy, I think it completely backfired because

406
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,480
Speaker 2: people were going, oh, come on, you know, there's got

407
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 2: to be one, You've got a bit one or two.

408
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:52,959
Speaker 3: You know.

409
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 1: Do you think what took him there was desperation or

410
00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 1: his own ego or hubris or what was it that was.

411
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:01,679
Speaker 3: A good play A good question.

412
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,360
Speaker 2: I'm not really sure, but I guess he probably thought

413
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 2: he had nothing to lose. He was going to be

414
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 2: booted out of the cops anyway without superannuation. Well, I

415
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:14,359
Speaker 2: don't think I'm not sure how much super existed in

416
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,480
Speaker 2: those days, but without any benefits that he might have accrued.

417
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 2: I think he thought he had nothing to lose. I

418
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:23,399
Speaker 2: think he felt that he could still pull off a

419
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:27,320
Speaker 2: performance that would win him some sympathy. As you say,

420
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,920
Speaker 2: it's ego. A couple of people said to him, are

421
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 2: you sure you want to do this? He said, yep, yep,

422
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 2: no problem. Well it was a problem because obviously he

423
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,720
Speaker 2: names Lenny and Ned Smith as informers. That's then used

424
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:45,200
Speaker 2: against him as further ammunition to kick him out.

425
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:46,919
Speaker 1: Breaching police pravate coal.

426
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 2: Breaching police protocol, bringing the New South Wales Police into disrepute,

427
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:56,679
Speaker 2: and that's what they boot him out on those disciplinary matters.

428
00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,479
Speaker 2: He's not kicked out because of any criminal conviction. It's

429
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:04,439
Speaker 2: an extraordinary thing that he did. But he used the

430
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 2: media often. I mean I did that interview with him

431
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty two. You know he's going on the

432
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:10,879
Speaker 2: front foot.

433
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 3: He does lots.

434
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:16,560
Speaker 2: He does the interview after shooting land Franchi, I mean,

435
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,159
Speaker 2: which is incredible, and he goes on Ray Martin on

436
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 2: National TV when he's really under a lot of fire.

437
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:26,440
Speaker 1: It's almost like you because the next part I want

438
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 1: to talk about. It's almost like you can't make this

439
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 1: stuff up, Like if you pin this, if this was

440
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 1: in the fiction section, I'll be going now you've gone

441
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,679
Speaker 1: too far, Gone too far. This doesn't happen. But didn't

442
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,400
Speaker 1: neddie get run over or an attempt on his life?

443
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 1: After Roger's appearance, Roger appears on a current affair. Don't

444
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:47,120
Speaker 1: hold me to the exact day, but he appears one

445
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:51,400
Speaker 1: night and I'm pretty certain he names Ned as an informer.

446
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 3: I think.

447
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 2: The next day or the day after, Ned is walking

448
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:58,160
Speaker 2: down a footpath in Alexandria near the Iron Duke Hotel,

449
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 2: which he used to have a beer you're at. Somebody

450
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,679
Speaker 2: tries to murder him by running him over with a

451
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 2: car on the footpath. Car comes up on the footpath,

452
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 2: bang into Ned. Ned goes down, car tries to reverse

453
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:16,360
Speaker 2: over him, misses luckily for Ned. He struggles into the

454
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 2: Iron Duke and just sort of you know, then goes

455
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:26,680
Speaker 2: to hospital, discharges himself. He's got broken arms, legs, he's

456
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 2: not in a good shape. But he then decides he

457
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 2: wants to go on a current affair, which he does

458
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 2: a night or so later, again with Ray Martin. Ray

459
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:43,920
Speaker 2: Ray was over the moon. This is, as you say,

460
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 2: you almost couldn't make this stuff up because Ned, because

461
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,879
Speaker 2: he's badly injured, I think, was chop it in on

462
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 2: the Channel nine chopper which lands, you know, and the

463
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 2: old Channel nine headquarters and that's all filmed and goes

464
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 2: to where and Ned denies that he's, you know, a

465
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 2: police inform He just says, oh, I make my money

466
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:03,400
Speaker 2: out of a bit of s p, a bit of stealing,

467
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,440
Speaker 2: a bit of this, and that you know, generally downplays

468
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 2: his criminal career. But yeah, they on national television. You know,

469
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 2: as you say, you couldn't make it.

470
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:21,120
Speaker 1: Up, you can't. And then referencing another media interview back

471
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 1: from the sixty Minutes, Sally Anne Huckstep She's murdered.

472
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 2: She's murdered in nineteen eighty six, very early nineteen eighty six.

473
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:35,679
Speaker 2: She's found in Centennial Park in Sydney in a pond.

474
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 2: She's found early one morning, well certainly one morning, by

475
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 2: I think a jogger or somebody walking their dog. They

476
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 2: see a body floating. Police are called. She's known very

477
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 2: well to a lot of police because she's been around

478
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 2: for a long time. They identify her as Sally Anne Huckstep.

479
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 2: She first the very first day or two, the pathologist

480
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 2: who examines, he says, I might not be murder. She

481
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 2: might have had a heroin shot and drowned in the lake.

482
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 2: That's pretty quickly dispensed with when a second opinion is

483
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 2: called for and she strangled. You know, there's no two

484
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 2: ways about it. She's but she's been murdered.

485
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 1: That's not just reminding people that this is sally Anne

486
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 1: Huckstep who was warrant Lane Francie's girlfriend who went on

487
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 1: sixty Minutes to say that he was murdered.

488
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 3: That's right.

489
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 2: And Sally Anne went on sixty minutes in nineteen eighty one,

490
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 2: a week or eight days after her boyfriend was shot dead.

491
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 2: In a way, she blows the whistle on Ron Roger

492
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 2: in a big way. I mean it's National TV, it's

493
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 2: prime time. He obviously hates her. Ned Smith hates her

494
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 2: as well. So that's eighty one, she's murdered in eighty six.

495
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 2: You know she's a complex person as well. You know

496
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 2: she's a whistleblower. She was incredibly courageous to do that interview,

497
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 2: I think. But in late eighty five and early eighty six,

498
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 2: she's running around with two federal police, and she's doing

499
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 2: it very publicly in King's Cross out at the Long Bay.

500
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 2: She's seen with these two federal cops, and word is

501
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 2: getting around that she's informing Whether that's I mean, I

502
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 2: think the coroner suggested that that was a reason that

503
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 2: she was murdered, that people saw her doing this were

504
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 2: uncertain of what she was doing. But you know, Roger's

505
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 2: been accused of her murder. Ned Smith is eventually actually

506
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 2: charged with her murder, but that comes quite a number

507
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 2: of years later, in.

508
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 3: Fact, quite over a decade later.

509
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So just trying to I'm trying to keep

510
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 1: up with them more. We've got Roger, he he's out

511
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 1: of the police. Now Ned's they've had their doing them

512
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 1: throwing with Ray Martin. Yep, Need's been run over. Then

513
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 1: Ned gets himself into the trouble. There was a murder.

514
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 1: It was a tow truck driver, a road rage incident.

515
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 3: That's right.

516
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 2: So eighty four is Roger's last day in the cops.

517
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 2: Eighty six he's officially kicked out. He's still hanging around

518
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 2: with Ned. Eighty seven comes around, and sometime towards the

519
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 2: end of eighty seven, I think it is.

520
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 3: Don't hold into the.

521
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 2: Dates here, because there are a lot of dates. There

522
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 2: are a lot of incidents. But he's having a drink

523
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 2: with Roger at I think the Covent Garden Hotel in Chinatown.

524
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 2: Ned's there with the mate of his. It's a big session.

525
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 2: There's a lot of beer and other drinks had, you know,

526
00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 2: mids middy's. At some stage in the evening, around seven

527
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 2: or eight, Ned and his mate decided it's a great

528
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 2: idea to drive to Kujie to bat on drinking. They

529
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 2: leave Roger behind.

530
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 1: Something tells me they're not the type to worry about

531
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:13,560
Speaker 1: drink driving.

532
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 2: No, I think it was a miracle given the amount

533
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:20,720
Speaker 2: of alcohol consumed. It was a miracle actually managed to

534
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 2: get Goodjie far. They got that far. A judge later

535
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 2: actually commented on that they're in Cuojie Bay Road, Sydney's

536
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 2: eastern suburbs, and they all of a sudden stop near

537
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 2: a fish and chip shop. Nobody knows why, whether they're hungry.

538
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 2: A tow truck with two blokes and it pulls up

539
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 2: behind Ned and is made of blocking the traffic. The

540
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 2: tow truck driver flashes his lights. Bad mistake. Ned's mate

541
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 2: gets out of the car, comes around, tries to belt

542
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 2: the tow truck driver. The passenger of the tow truck

543
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 2: gets out, he starts to have a blue All of

544
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 2: a sudden, you've got Ned Smith's mate and the two

545
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 2: blokes in the tow truck having a barney outside a

546
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,960
Speaker 2: fish and chip shop, but also being seen by diners

547
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 2: in a restaurant and people on the footpath. In that fight,

548
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 2: the passenger in the tow truck driver blow called Ronnie Flavel,

549
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 2: is stabbed to death. He dies pretty much on the footpath.

550
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 2: Ned and his mate bolt. They're arrested very soon after. Initially,

551
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 2: Ned gets bail because it's such a confused crime scene, Melle,

552
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:42,040
Speaker 2: and it's nighttime and people have been drinking. He gets bail,

553
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 2: so he's out and saying I've never stabbed anybody in

554
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 2: my life. So you've got all the cases both with

555
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 2: both Roger and Ned not running parallel but running over

556
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 2: each other a lot of the time. So they're in

557
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 2: and out of court. I don't know either of them.

558
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 2: I mean, with Rogerson in particular, I mean, whatever you

559
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:11,880
Speaker 2: say about him, he had a certain resilience to be

560
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:15,800
Speaker 2: accused of all this stuff time and time and time again,

561
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 2: and he's still standing.

562
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 3: Yeah.

563
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 2: So Ned Smith's in trouble for murder and he's a

564
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:24,720
Speaker 2: waiting trial.

565
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:29,760
Speaker 1: So and where are we got Roger at this stage?

566
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 1: So he's out of the police Any idea what Roger

567
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:34,479
Speaker 1: was doing? I know I saw him at one time

568
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 1: saying he's installing security bars.

569
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 2: He was installing security It was a bit of a handyman,

570
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,239
Speaker 2: you know, he could do a bit of welding all

571
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 2: that sort of stuff. He was probably better than a handyman.

572
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 2: He was installing security grills. He was doing some work

573
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 2: I think for the New South Wales Department of Housing,

574
00:34:55,760 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 2: you know, minors sort of stuff. He was also at

575
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 2: one stage involved with a company that made safes. He's

576
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:11,600
Speaker 2: doing a range of things, but he's generally, he says,

577
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 2: pretty down on his luck. He's got nothing from the

578
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:20,799
Speaker 2: police force, you know. And yeah, I mean he's doing

579
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 2: the best he can as they say, okay.

580
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:26,720
Speaker 1: We've got him doing that. He then got dragged into

581
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 1: ICAC inquiry or the Royal Commission.

582
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:36,800
Speaker 2: There's a few things unfolding as usual with nothing simple

583
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:39,400
Speaker 2: with Roger. Because we've mentioned one hundred and ten thousand

584
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 2: dollars in the bank accounts. He's charged with that for

585
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 2: conspiracy to pervert the course of justice. There's one hundred

586
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 2: and ten grand in the bank false names, which I

587
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:53,799
Speaker 2: have to point out was not actually an offense. You

588
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 2: could do it, but Roger doing it obviously attracted a

589
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:01,280
Speaker 2: fair bit of attention. He's charged with conspiring to permit

590
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:07,759
Speaker 2: the course of justice. He's convicted because his excuses as

591
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:11,279
Speaker 2: to where the money came from are not believed, and

592
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:13,840
Speaker 2: there's a critical witness who gives evidence against him and

593
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,399
Speaker 2: says what Roger says is a lie. He didn't get

594
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:18,319
Speaker 2: that money from me.

595
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 3: So he goes.

596
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:24,240
Speaker 2: He sentenced to jail, He appeals, he wins his appeal

597
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 2: in the Court of Criminal Appeal, bounces out of jail.

598
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,919
Speaker 2: He's served about twelve months and says, I always knew

599
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 2: that justice would win through. I'm a firm believer in

600
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,840
Speaker 2: the system of justice. It's a triumph.

601
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 1: And he's I remember that standing on the steps of her,

602
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 1: and I.

603
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 2: Think he's wearing an armed hold up squad tie even

604
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:50,840
Speaker 2: though he hasn't been there for a long time. For Roger,

605
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 2: that party gets spoiled when the crown says, well we're

606
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:58,359
Speaker 2: going to appeal this all the way to the High Court.

607
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 2: The High Court overturns his acquittal as it were, and says, Roger,

608
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:07,840
Speaker 2: you're going back to jail, back inside. So he's back inside.

609
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 2: That's ninety two to ninety five. He serves three years.

610
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 2: In the meantime, let's jump back to Ned. He's up

611
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:19,840
Speaker 2: for the murder charge of the tow truck driver Ronnie Flavel.

612
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 2: He's out on bail. The following year, I think it

613
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 2: is he decides that it might be a good idea

614
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 2: to rob Botany Council armed robbery, armed hold up squad,

615
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:37,840
Speaker 2: not Roger, different armed hold up squad or different different

616
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:42,800
Speaker 2: detectives are waiting for him. He's caught red handed outside

617
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 2: Botany Council with guns, you know, balaclav as, the whole

618
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 2: box and dice.

619
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:47,240
Speaker 3: He's gone.

620
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:51,759
Speaker 2: He's absolutely gone, and so his freedom ends that day.

621
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 2: Judges taking a fairly dim view of somebody already on

622
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 2: bail for murder, committing an armed robbery, and he never

623
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 2: gets he never gets out.

624
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 1: Not a good look, but he managed to bring himself unstuck.

625
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 1: We're talking Ned here. When he was in prison because

626
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 1: he had a big mouth and was talking to his

627
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:16,200
Speaker 1: cellmate about a number of crimes. And I think it

628
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 1: was that John Waycock, I think was heading up a

629
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 1: strike force related to that with seven murders. And he

630
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:26,080
Speaker 1: was in fact charge with multiple murders, wasn't he on

631
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 1: the back of admissions he'd made to a fellow prisoner.

632
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 2: Absolutely. So he's in jail for the murder of Ronnie Flavell.

633
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 2: So he's in jail for life. Well, and life doesn't

634
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:41,359
Speaker 2: mean in those days life. It means probably about twelve

635
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 2: fifteen years. But while he's in jail, he's trying to

636
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 2: get out and he goes to various authorities with allegations

637
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:54,760
Speaker 2: of police corruption. That comes to pretty much nothing, although

638
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:58,360
Speaker 2: there is a public inquiry and there's a lot of publicity.

639
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 2: But for Ned, by the mid nineties, he's still languishing

640
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 2: in prison and he's not on protection, but he's in

641
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:13,920
Speaker 2: a particular part of the jail which houses prison informers.

642
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 2: An informer comes in to his unit. It's called a unit.

643
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:23,920
Speaker 2: There are two cells and there's a very small common

644
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 2: area that both prisoners can use. Ned gets chatting to

645
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 2: this prisoner and he knows that the other bloke's an

646
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 2: informer as well, because that's why he's in this particular

647
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 2: unit of the prison.

648
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:35,880
Speaker 1: I'm familiar with the area.

649
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's not like oh so. Ned proves to

650
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:49,359
Speaker 2: be his own worst enemy big time, not being able

651
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 2: to help himself. He starts to talk to this prisoner

652
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:55,759
Speaker 2: in the book, I've called him Terry, obviously not his

653
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:59,840
Speaker 2: real name. Terry has been in a bit of st

654
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 2: life all his life, most of his adult life, and

655
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 2: he tells me this in an interview. He said, he said, geez,

656
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:08,280
Speaker 2: he just kept.

657
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:09,520
Speaker 3: On going on and on and on.

658
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 2: I felt like saying, shut the f up. But then Terry,

659
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 2: obviously having been around the system, goes, well, maybe I

660
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 2: can turn this to my advantage. He contacts his case officer,

661
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 2: New South Wales detective and the cops go, oh, this

662
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 2: could be good, could be worthwhile. They plant a listening

663
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:33,040
Speaker 2: device in a computer that's being used in the cell,

664
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 2: and that then records Ned confessing to the murder of

665
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 2: Sally and Huckstep, a small time crook that knew Ned

666
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 2: very well, called Harvey Jones. He confesses to another murder

667
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:51,840
Speaker 2: of a drug dealer, Luton Shu, who was found buried

668
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:57,719
Speaker 2: south of Sydney. He confesses in all to a significant

669
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 2: number of murders. This is all tape recorder, so it's

670
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:05,640
Speaker 2: not like a prison informer going, oh, he told me this.

671
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:10,280
Speaker 2: He told me that they've got a gone tape. Ned's

672
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:13,759
Speaker 2: been round about nineteen ninety six. Ned is charged with

673
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:19,160
Speaker 2: seven of the murders to which he's confessed. They don't

674
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 2: charge him with all of the ones, because sometimes there's

675
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:26,840
Speaker 2: not enough robborative evidence, but seven's not a bad start.

676
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 2: He's convicted of the murder of Harvey Jones, who was

677
00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:33,799
Speaker 2: sort of He was a tall, lanky bloke that used

678
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 2: to hang around with Ned. He was a sort of

679
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:40,359
Speaker 2: a wannabe gangster. You know his last scene I think

680
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:45,759
Speaker 2: with Ned at the Star Hotel. Ned confesses to this

681
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 2: cell mate. He says, oh, this is Harvey Jones. You

682
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:54,839
Speaker 2: know he was becoming a pest. I blew his heart

683
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 2: out with a big three five seven revolver and he

684
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:02,920
Speaker 2: describes also in this tape according where he's got rid

685
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 2: of him near.

686
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 3: The airport.

687
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:12,920
Speaker 2: At that stage. Harvey Jones. His body has never been found,

688
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:19,840
Speaker 2: but fortuitously not for Ned, but luckily for the investigating police.

689
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:22,719
Speaker 2: About six months after Ned makes that confession to his

690
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 2: prisoner mate. The remains of Harvey Jones are discovered pretty

691
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:31,440
Speaker 2: much exactly where Ned said he buried him.

692
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:33,200
Speaker 3: That'll do it, and that will do it.

693
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:36,719
Speaker 2: And also the bullet fragments saw whatever they were. The

694
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:40,319
Speaker 2: ballistics evidence supports the fact that a three five seven

695
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 2: revolver was used. Could have been a thirty eight, but

696
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:45,399
Speaker 2: it's consistent also with a three five seven. So what

697
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:50,440
Speaker 2: Ned has said in jail and been recorded matches up

698
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:51,960
Speaker 2: with what is found.

699
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 1: It's interesting because he was only convicted of the Harvey

700
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:58,319
Speaker 1: Jones one. He's found not guilty sally an hugstep, but

701
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:01,880
Speaker 1: the fact that for ture of the corroborative evidence was

702
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 1: discovered on that that probably sealed the deal on him

703
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:08,160
Speaker 1: being convicted of that. It leads you to say he

704
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:11,520
Speaker 1: wasn't talking all fantasy that what he was talking about

705
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:12,200
Speaker 1: the other one so.

706
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 2: Well that he claimed he was just making it all.

707
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:18,920
Speaker 1: Up, you know, big coincidence with Harvey.

708
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 2: Big coincidence with Harvey. And also there was a witness

709
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 2: who helped bury Harvey's body who eventually came forward and said, yeah,

710
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:28,480
Speaker 2: I was there and I helped bury the body. So

711
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:33,440
Speaker 2: between the secret jail recordings, the location of Harvey's body

712
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:35,760
Speaker 2: when Ed said he'd put it out of the Informer,

713
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:39,279
Speaker 2: He's gone for all money on that one. Look, he

714
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:42,279
Speaker 2: tried to claim he was making all this stuff, this

715
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:46,319
Speaker 2: stuff up, that he was big noting. The trouble is

716
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:49,840
Speaker 2: that a lot of it. You know, he knew these people.

717
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:52,440
Speaker 2: He'd written about it in some of his books.

718
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:54,840
Speaker 3: He'd written about knowing a lot of these people.

719
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 1: Now, it might take you into a psychology of hard

720
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:01,719
Speaker 1: working police. I say, but I was working on a

721
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 1: strike force at police headquarters, and that strikeforce investigating those

722
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:09,319
Speaker 1: seven murders was working in another incident room beside me.

723
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 1: I had two people on my investigation that was a

724
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 1: serial killer, and they had about a dozen people in

725
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 1: their strikeforce room. And I'd always complained, it can't be

726
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 1: that hard. You've read a book like come and help

727
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:27,920
Speaker 1: me work on my investigation. But yeah, just reminded me

728
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:30,719
Speaker 1: of a time I'm stuck on my own on one

729
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:34,320
Speaker 1: side and they are on the other side investigating that

730
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:35,399
Speaker 1: that he'd written about it.

731
00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:39,360
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, he'd partly written about Harvey Jones, how he

732
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:41,239
Speaker 2: was a pest a plane on the backside.

733
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 3: Of course, all this is produced.

734
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:45,920
Speaker 2: In court against him, and it's his own words, although

735
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:48,760
Speaker 2: I've read the transcript of that one. At one stage

736
00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:51,239
Speaker 2: he said, I didn't write that. I didn't write that

737
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:54,440
Speaker 2: in those are not my words. Somebody else wrote those.

738
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 1: Which is there any part of your book you want

739
00:44:57,480 --> 00:44:58,040
Speaker 1: to take out?

740
00:44:58,239 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 3: No, not so far.

741
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:05,840
Speaker 2: So look he's yeah, of course, he says, Oh, this

742
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:08,799
Speaker 2: is corrupt New South Wales police getting back at him

743
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:13,840
Speaker 2: for making allegations. And that defense is run, and you

744
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 2: know it's run very strongly by by his barrister, Winston Terracini,

745
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:22,840
Speaker 2: who you know it makes a very very good.

746
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 3: Case for it. But you know, Winston's never backward in

747
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:26,399
Speaker 3: case he is.

748
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 2: Not backward, and he is he is. You know some

749
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:32,440
Speaker 2: of the stuff he said, I've quoted it in the book.

750
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 2: It's it's terrific. I mean, ned could not say he

751
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:38,880
Speaker 2: did not get a good defense in any of the cases.

752
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:41,680
Speaker 2: But look, at the end of the day, he's convicted

753
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 2: of Harvey Jones and he is sentenced to life, meaning life,

754
00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:49,320
Speaker 2: he's never getting out. He beats the charge of murdering

755
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 2: Sally an Huckstep, although personally I think he's good for it,

756
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 2: and they don't proceed with the others.

757
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 1: The others, but he's in jail for life. He was

758
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:01,480
Speaker 1: suffering parkets and disease. Yeah, ladder part of his life.

759
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:05,240
Speaker 1: And what year did he pass away in He passed

760
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:07,839
Speaker 1: away a couple of years ago, seventy six at the time.

761
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:08,320
Speaker 3: Yeah.

762
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:11,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, Look, he probably lived a lot longer than most

763
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:15,120
Speaker 2: people thought because he did have Parkinson's. It obviously got

764
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:19,040
Speaker 2: progressively worse. When I met him that time at lunch

765
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:24,680
Speaker 2: at Prunier's restaurant, I didn't discern any Parkinson's. He did

766
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:28,480
Speaker 2: have it, but it wasn't it wasn't noticeable or I

767
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 2: can't remember it. But yeah, he got a lot worse

768
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:33,920
Speaker 2: than in the end, he was pretty much unable to

769
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:35,360
Speaker 2: look after himself in jail.

770
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:41,800
Speaker 1: Okay, Roger Tales of Roger. He ended with a grand

771
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:44,600
Speaker 1: finish with the Jamie gow murder, but in the lead

772
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 1: up to that he got put back inside for another

773
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:51,440
Speaker 1: was it line to the line to the Police Integrity Commission?

774
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:56,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, he gets caught for perjury. He's called to an

775
00:46:56,360 --> 00:47:01,359
Speaker 2: inquiry and Roger's doing some building work, you know, minor

776
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:04,399
Speaker 2: building work, as we've discussed, and he's got a mate

777
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:12,040
Speaker 2: at Liverpool Council who's helping him get some work. The

778
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 2: bloke at Liverpool Council is known as mister ten percent

779
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:19,240
Speaker 2: because when he gave out the contract, you'd.

780
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:22,760
Speaker 1: Get there anyone clean, well, good.

781
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:25,439
Speaker 2: Old Sydney councils. I mean, you know, there's a long

782
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 2: I wouldn't say proud tradition. But anyway, the contract is

783
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:33,600
Speaker 2: Roger's getting some work. I think he might have got

784
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:38,120
Speaker 2: about fifty grands worth. And he's called to this inquiry

785
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:43,480
Speaker 2: and he's asked, oh was this bloke. Did you ever

786
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:45,120
Speaker 2: describe this bloke as mister ten percent?

787
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:45,480
Speaker 3: No?

788
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:47,800
Speaker 2: No, no, no no, did you ever pay him ten percent?

789
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:48,160
Speaker 3: No?

790
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:51,680
Speaker 2: No, no, it's all rubbish. Of course they've got Roger's

791
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:55,840
Speaker 2: house bugged. They then playing the tape recordings and Roger's

792
00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 2: there might have been even on Christmas Day, and he's going,

793
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:02,320
Speaker 2: oh so, and so he's known as mister ten percent.

794
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:04,000
Speaker 2: I've got to put ten percent aside.

795
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:05,040
Speaker 3: He's lied.

796
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 2: He's gone for perjury and I think that was the

797
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:13,680
Speaker 2: late nineties, but he doesn't actually go to jail until

798
00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:18,320
Speaker 2: about two thousand and five. It's a long drawn out process.

799
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 1: And I could imagine Roger going into that he'd be thinking.

800
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 1: He'd almost enjoy it, like it'd almost give him a

801
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:26,560
Speaker 1: little bit. Yeah, I can play this. This is what

802
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:28,759
Speaker 1: an inquiry. I'll just talk my way out of that.

803
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:33,279
Speaker 2: You read the transcript, and it sounds like that at

804
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:36,920
Speaker 2: one stage he's been asked about something or other and

805
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:39,680
Speaker 2: he says, I can't remember, you know, my memory is

806
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:42,959
Speaker 2: not what it used to be. And the barrister who's

807
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:46,000
Speaker 2: cross examined him and he says, oh, maybe you can

808
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:48,399
Speaker 2: have a bit of a think, and Roger says, yeah,

809
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:51,640
Speaker 2: I'll give it a oil and grease change and get

810
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 2: it ready for the next time, you know, And it's

811
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:59,200
Speaker 2: this sort of humorous throwaway line.

812
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:02,799
Speaker 1: I don't like him, the shame that the crimes he's

813
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:07,000
Speaker 1: committed and the shame he's brought on police, but there's

814
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:10,880
Speaker 1: something about him. It's just yeah, there's he just keeps

815
00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:12,600
Speaker 1: kept turning up, didn't he?

816
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:15,319
Speaker 2: He kept turning up. And look, I've got to be

817
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 2: in the book, I say in the prologue. I've said

818
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:21,040
Speaker 2: I met him a lot over many years. He was

819
00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:24,239
Speaker 2: good company. I liked him. I mean it was if

820
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:28,760
Speaker 2: you were around Roger for a while, it was almost

821
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:31,319
Speaker 2: impossible not to like him. It's not to say I

822
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:34,240
Speaker 2: wasn't aware of who he was good company. I suppose

823
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:36,840
Speaker 2: you could describe it as terrific company.

824
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:37,239
Speaker 3: You know.

825
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:40,320
Speaker 2: I always had a good story or had the latest,

826
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:44,560
Speaker 2: not not gossip. But he continued, even when he gets

827
00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:46,440
Speaker 2: out of the cops, he continues to mix with all

828
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:51,680
Speaker 2: these crooks, so he still knows everybody and in the city.

829
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:54,600
Speaker 1: I wondered quite often his name had get dropped when

830
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:57,960
Speaker 1: I was on investigations or whatever. And I'm not sure

831
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:00,680
Speaker 1: if it was people just trading off his rep or

832
00:50:00,719 --> 00:50:03,759
Speaker 1: whether he was really involved in things. It's yeah, it

833
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:04,760
Speaker 1: was a bit of a mystery.

834
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:07,239
Speaker 2: Oh look, I think people have often used his name,

835
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:10,279
Speaker 2: and it's happened to me. A couple of people have

836
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:12,400
Speaker 2: come up and said, oh, yeah, Roger did this, Roger

837
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:14,839
Speaker 2: did that, And I said, oh, when was that and

838
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:18,360
Speaker 2: they said, oh, I was, say the late nineties, and

839
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:20,359
Speaker 2: they're saying he's in the police force, and I'm going,

840
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:23,439
Speaker 2: maybe he wasn't in the police force then, and they go, oh, oh,

841
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:27,400
Speaker 2: maybe it wasn't him. I think Roger's name got bandied

842
00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:30,160
Speaker 2: around a lot because it was convenient, you know.

843
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:35,240
Speaker 1: Well, either way, it made people think and ah, they connected,

844
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:37,160
Speaker 1: they know Roger. I'll get Roger to come and speak

845
00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:39,480
Speaker 1: to you, or something like that. So his name could

846
00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:43,520
Speaker 1: be used in that way. But he certainly didn't share

847
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:46,320
Speaker 1: any remorse or embarrassment. He was doing his stage show

848
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:50,560
Speaker 1: with Chopper Read and yeah, you hear snippets of the

849
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:52,960
Speaker 1: stage show. You would have seen it. But there was

850
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:54,840
Speaker 1: no remorse for the people that were killed.

851
00:50:55,200 --> 00:51:00,680
Speaker 2: Oh, there was no remorse for anybody. He turned it

852
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:05,799
Speaker 2: to his advantage, and he was sometimes macabre in some

853
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:08,640
Speaker 2: of the things he said. And I remember something about

854
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:13,000
Speaker 2: the Philip Western shooting. And for many years Roger actually

855
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:15,560
Speaker 2: claimed he was one of the police that had shot

856
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 2: Philip Weston, the arm drobber who was killed up at Avoca.

857
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 2: And in his stage shows he would say something like,

858
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:27,759
Speaker 2: you know, we had Philip Weston surrounded, I had my shotgun.

859
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:31,160
Speaker 2: He Western stuck his head out of a bathroom window.

860
00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:34,640
Speaker 2: We all let fly with the remington blew his head off.

861
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 2: His dear old mum, Alice Blossom Western could only identify

862
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:45,399
Speaker 2: him by his ingrown toenails because there was nothing left

863
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:52,000
Speaker 2: of his head. And you know, you'd sort of go, oh,

864
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:54,920
Speaker 2: you know, and I know a lot of his colleagues

865
00:51:55,040 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 2: were going, what's he doing? For a start, you know,

866
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:02,719
Speaker 2: Roger didn't s Philip Western. He was there, but he

867
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:05,640
Speaker 2: didn't actually shoot him, even though he told me he did,

868
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:08,600
Speaker 2: And at that stage many years ago, Gary I believed him.

869
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:11,080
Speaker 2: I mean, I didn't know why he would confess to

870
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:13,120
Speaker 2: that if he hadn't done it. But I think he

871
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:14,120
Speaker 2: just thought it added.

872
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:18,560
Speaker 3: To his notoriety trade off it. But those sort of stories.

873
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:22,560
Speaker 1: But not show any remorse. All the times I've seen

874
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:25,320
Speaker 1: police involved in shooting incidents, especially if they're pulled the

875
00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:28,400
Speaker 1: trigger and someone's being killed, they're not celebrating that the

876
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:31,080
Speaker 1: impacts deeply on them and that they carry it for

877
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:33,680
Speaker 1: the rest of their lives. And yeah, yeah, that's right

878
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:34,720
Speaker 1: a normal person.

879
00:52:34,840 --> 00:52:39,000
Speaker 2: I don't think he had any remorse about any of

880
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:44,879
Speaker 2: the crimes or shootings. Sorry ever, I think the only

881
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:48,040
Speaker 2: remorse he ever showed was in relationship to his family,

882
00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:52,600
Speaker 2: to his daughters, his wife. I think he was genuinely

883
00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:56,120
Speaker 2: remorseful about that. But about the shooting of land Francie

884
00:52:56,600 --> 00:53:03,200
Speaker 2: butchy Burn, Philip Western, you know, any case he was

885
00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:06,200
Speaker 2: deeply involved in, I don't think there was any remorse there.

886
00:53:06,239 --> 00:53:09,000
Speaker 2: At all, and he felt he certainly felt for a

887
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:12,920
Speaker 2: long time their bitterness that he'd been betrayed by the

888
00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:15,320
Speaker 2: you know, the new broom in the New South Wales

889
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:19,600
Speaker 2: Police Force, because I think I think he said something,

890
00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:22,480
Speaker 2: you know, like you know, I was just doing what

891
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:24,960
Speaker 2: we'd always done and all of a sudden they shifted

892
00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:25,560
Speaker 2: the guy post.

893
00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:28,600
Speaker 1: So I can understand him having that you created me.

894
00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:31,600
Speaker 1: Now you now you're you're shaming me for doing what

895
00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:34,160
Speaker 1: you wanted me to do. Yeah, but like I can

896
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:37,640
Speaker 1: tell you, Roger across that it was just a lie.

897
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:39,280
Speaker 1: He was on another planet.

898
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:39,799
Speaker 3: That was.

899
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:43,640
Speaker 1: It wasn't like they would put tough people together to

900
00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:46,680
Speaker 1: do tough jobs. And I respect that and respect the

901
00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:50,440
Speaker 1: jobs that these guys would do. Roger just took it

902
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:53,040
Speaker 1: to a completely different level. And I think and I

903
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:58,040
Speaker 1: got a sort of i'd not say satisfaction because someone

904
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:00,319
Speaker 1: was murdered, Jamie Gower, even if he was tied up

905
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:03,680
Speaker 1: in drugs, he didn't deserve what happened to him. But

906
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:08,120
Speaker 1: seeing Roger come unstuck in such a I call it

907
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:12,240
Speaker 1: almost comical way where he's walking captured on CCTV, walking

908
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:17,000
Speaker 1: with his hip and the waddle and all that like,

909
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:20,319
Speaker 1: he just to me, it just showed someone to me,

910
00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:22,719
Speaker 1: it was embarrassing for a detective to get caught in

911
00:54:22,719 --> 00:54:25,760
Speaker 1: so many ways. He got caught on that particular murder.

912
00:54:25,800 --> 00:54:27,560
Speaker 1: Do you want to just tell us briefly about that.

913
00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:31,239
Speaker 1: We've had Russell Oxford on the show, and Russell gave

914
00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:34,600
Speaker 1: us a very good insight into that investigation, but just

915
00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:35,919
Speaker 1: a brief overview of that.

916
00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:38,480
Speaker 2: Well, Russell Oxford certainly knows a lot more about it

917
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:38,920
Speaker 2: than I do.

918
00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:40,560
Speaker 3: But I mean, you.

919
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:44,239
Speaker 2: Know, the year before he's charged with the shooting of

920
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:47,600
Speaker 2: Jamie Goar twenty fourteen, just a few months before, Roger

921
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:50,759
Speaker 2: had appeared in a civil matter and he was sort

922
00:54:50,760 --> 00:54:53,239
Speaker 2: of sitting there going, this is in court, and he's

923
00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:56,600
Speaker 2: sitting there going, oh, you know, I've I wouldn't be

924
00:54:56,640 --> 00:54:59,000
Speaker 2: committing crimes at my age, you know, he said, I'm

925
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:02,320
Speaker 2: sort of past that if I did, I'd probably be caught.

926
00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:04,440
Speaker 3: Lo and behold.

927
00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:10,960
Speaker 2: Twenty fourteen, Jamie Gower gets shot and as Russell's explained,

928
00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:15,520
Speaker 2: storage unit and there's all this CCTV of Roger with

929
00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:17,440
Speaker 2: his very distinctive gait.

930
00:55:17,719 --> 00:55:18,760
Speaker 3: I mean, he had.

931
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:21,239
Speaker 2: A bad hip, he had a bad shoulder. I think

932
00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:22,880
Speaker 2: he had arthritis and he had gout.

933
00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:23,920
Speaker 3: It was like a wattle.

934
00:55:24,120 --> 00:55:27,600
Speaker 2: It was a wattle, yeah, and you know you sort

935
00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:31,480
Speaker 2: of shake your head. I remember when it first hit

936
00:55:31,560 --> 00:55:34,560
Speaker 2: the headlines, The Daily Telegraph had a great scoop Rogerson

937
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:37,920
Speaker 2: wanted for murder and I'm just going what you know?

938
00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:42,640
Speaker 2: And I rang an old colleague of his and I said,

939
00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:45,879
Speaker 2: I you've seen Roger lately, like in the previous month

940
00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:46,279
Speaker 2: or two.

941
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:47,520
Speaker 3: And he said.

942
00:55:47,280 --> 00:55:49,279
Speaker 2: Something like yeah, I saw him a couple of weeks ago.

943
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:52,000
Speaker 2: I said, as he still got all his marbles And

944
00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:54,680
Speaker 2: there was a pause and he said sharp as attack.

945
00:55:55,640 --> 00:55:58,120
Speaker 2: And I went wow, because by then it was emerging

946
00:55:58,160 --> 00:56:02,640
Speaker 2: that he'd been caught on which was gathered up, hoovered

947
00:56:02,719 --> 00:56:06,440
Speaker 2: up by Russell Oxford and his team, amongst many other things,

948
00:56:07,640 --> 00:56:13,439
Speaker 2: into an overwhelming case which I just can't figure out,

949
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:17,359
Speaker 2: perhaps like yourself, as to why or how he thought

950
00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:19,239
Speaker 2: he was going to get away with that, I mean,

951
00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:21,440
Speaker 2: and also why at seventy three.

952
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:26,160
Speaker 1: A time to retire for all of us, isn't it?

953
00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:27,320
Speaker 3: Well there is.

954
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:32,120
Speaker 1: Seventy three and tied up in the drug trade and murder.

955
00:56:32,160 --> 00:56:37,600
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's an extraordinary end to what could have

956
00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:42,920
Speaker 2: been a glittering career. If he'd stayed well more on

957
00:56:42,960 --> 00:56:45,480
Speaker 2: the straight and narrow and not as you say, not

958
00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:47,520
Speaker 2: just cross the line, but across the planet.

959
00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:51,440
Speaker 1: I think he was tried to appeal the sentence, didn't

960
00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:51,920
Speaker 1: he there was?

961
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:53,040
Speaker 2: Yeah?

962
00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:55,400
Speaker 1: They well he and it was his good mate. We

963
00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:59,319
Speaker 1: should give a shout out to him, the idiot Glenn McNamara.

964
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:00,840
Speaker 3: The yeah.

965
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:03,480
Speaker 2: How he and Roger met him for the first time

966
00:57:03,520 --> 00:57:06,280
Speaker 2: in around twenty eleven. They are a very odd couple.

967
00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:10,160
Speaker 2: Why Roger was hooking up with a guy who was

968
00:57:10,239 --> 00:57:16,360
Speaker 2: a a pedestrian police officer, I think.

969
00:57:16,240 --> 00:57:20,040
Speaker 1: Is because when yeah, I think that's a good way

970
00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:22,919
Speaker 1: of saying that. Glenn McNamara, former New South Wales cop

971
00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:26,760
Speaker 1: and I think detective people who'd asked me about him

972
00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:28,280
Speaker 1: and I said, I've never heard of him. I can't

973
00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:31,520
Speaker 1: think of anything that he's done and not good, bad,

974
00:57:31,600 --> 00:57:34,280
Speaker 1: or indifferent. He was just a nothing in the cops.

975
00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:36,480
Speaker 2: He made up part of his story. He wrote a

976
00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:40,680
Speaker 2: book round about twenty ten and he tells this story

977
00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:44,640
Speaker 2: about how was a detective he was with another detective

978
00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:48,080
Speaker 2: was on the tale of Warren land Franchi. Just days

979
00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:51,200
Speaker 2: before land Francie was shot by Roger. He recounts this

980
00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:53,600
Speaker 2: in his book, says, oh, we couldn't find him, which

981
00:57:53,680 --> 00:57:56,160
Speaker 2: was bad luck for Warren because a few days later

982
00:57:56,200 --> 00:58:01,000
Speaker 2: he shot dead. He's not a detective. He's in uniform

983
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:04,520
Speaker 2: at Sutherland at the very time. He says, he's working

984
00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:07,680
Speaker 2: as a detective and chasing land French. It never happened.

985
00:58:07,720 --> 00:58:09,920
Speaker 1: Sounds like a water mythy type came, yeah.

986
00:58:09,800 --> 00:58:11,440
Speaker 3: I mean it is. And another one of.

987
00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:15,920
Speaker 2: His big cases was the biking Father's Day massacre. I

988
00:58:15,960 --> 00:58:19,640
Speaker 2: asked somebody who was there, and they said, well, if

989
00:58:19,720 --> 00:58:24,120
Speaker 2: he was there, he was directing traffic. So he's he's

990
00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:28,080
Speaker 2: either a fantastist or just a good old fashioned I'm

991
00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:32,240
Speaker 2: not sure if I'm allowed to say bullshit artist. So

992
00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:34,760
Speaker 2: he was making stuff up, and yeah, look, it's a mystery.

993
00:58:35,160 --> 00:58:39,040
Speaker 2: The only thing I can think is that Roger thought

994
00:58:39,120 --> 00:58:42,880
Speaker 2: he could be useful because he could manipulate him and

995
00:58:43,160 --> 00:58:45,160
Speaker 2: use him. That's the only thing I can think.

996
00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:48,600
Speaker 1: That's and I'm looking completely from the outside, but that's

997
00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:50,880
Speaker 1: what I was thinking, just some numb school that he

998
00:58:50,920 --> 00:58:54,439
Speaker 1: would be in awe of Roger and just Roger could

999
00:58:54,440 --> 00:58:57,840
Speaker 1: get him doing whatever he wanted to do. Now, Roger

1000
00:58:58,040 --> 00:59:02,200
Speaker 1: he passed away this year and there was a lot

1001
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:05,120
Speaker 1: of attension about that, and it just sort of reflects

1002
00:59:05,120 --> 00:59:07,280
Speaker 1: on the impact he's had in the psyche of their

1003
00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:11,080
Speaker 1: city in Sydney. Do you, Neil, think this type of

1004
00:59:11,120 --> 00:59:13,760
Speaker 1: thing could ever flourish again or occur again, or do

1005
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:15,960
Speaker 1: you think there's too many checks and balances for the

1006
00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:18,240
Speaker 1: world to go off balance like it did with this

1007
00:59:18,320 --> 00:59:19,240
Speaker 1: at least pair.

1008
00:59:19,280 --> 00:59:21,880
Speaker 2: You certainly hope that it wouldn't happen again. And I

1009
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:25,040
Speaker 2: can't see it happening again. I mean, there's now a

1010
00:59:25,040 --> 00:59:30,560
Speaker 2: lot more supervision within detectives, within squads. You've got the

1011
00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:35,160
Speaker 2: Police Integrity Commission, you've got the Independent Commission against Corruption,

1012
00:59:35,960 --> 00:59:39,880
Speaker 2: You've got those sort of bodies. No, I just can't

1013
00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:42,960
Speaker 2: see it. He was the product partly of his era

1014
00:59:43,160 --> 00:59:45,840
Speaker 2: when that was he'd grown up with that. He went

1015
00:59:45,880 --> 00:59:48,480
Speaker 2: into the fours at seventeen. That's the way things had

1016
00:59:48,520 --> 00:59:53,640
Speaker 2: always been done, and he didn't sort of realize that

1017
00:59:54,240 --> 00:59:57,920
Speaker 2: the times they were changing musical.

1018
00:59:57,560 --> 01:00:00,160
Speaker 1: Chairs and the music stop and you were still standing.

1019
01:00:00,120 --> 01:00:03,200
Speaker 2: Still standing. Yeah, No, I can't see it happening again.

1020
01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:07,440
Speaker 2: And no, I mean there's sometimes a bit of nostalgia,

1021
01:00:08,560 --> 01:00:13,720
Speaker 2: you know. Somebody said once. Oh, you know, we need

1022
01:00:13,760 --> 01:00:16,760
Speaker 2: more good We need more cops like Roger Rogerson to

1023
01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:18,760
Speaker 2: give people a good kick up the ass, like the

1024
01:00:18,800 --> 01:00:21,440
Speaker 2: good old days and the good old days, well they

1025
01:00:21,440 --> 01:00:24,760
Speaker 2: were good old days in some ways, but they're pretty

1026
01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:27,080
Speaker 2: bad as well. When you look at Roger.

1027
01:00:27,360 --> 01:00:29,760
Speaker 1: I think it's like, all, yeah, you look back in

1028
01:00:29,760 --> 01:00:32,360
Speaker 1: the twenties and the thirties or policing in the depression.

1029
01:00:32,600 --> 01:00:36,080
Speaker 1: You're hard people. They need hard cops. It changes of

1030
01:00:36,120 --> 01:00:39,080
Speaker 1: the evolves. You need smart people, you need strong people

1031
01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:42,520
Speaker 1: as well. But because I know people that were in

1032
01:00:42,560 --> 01:00:45,960
Speaker 1: that same vintage as what Roger went through in the cops,

1033
01:00:46,720 --> 01:00:50,640
Speaker 1: and there were some hard, hard men and women, but

1034
01:00:50,720 --> 01:00:53,400
Speaker 1: with a different way of approaching policing. This is what

1035
01:00:53,440 --> 01:00:57,120
Speaker 1: they were shame when they came in, But the world

1036
01:00:57,120 --> 01:01:00,080
Speaker 1: had changed. I think we've Roger. What the noise me

1037
01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:03,360
Speaker 1: about him is. I love hard policing. I like the

1038
01:01:03,440 --> 01:01:06,320
Speaker 1: people that have got the reputation of doing the right things.

1039
01:01:06,320 --> 01:01:09,200
Speaker 1: Some great police officers that you know, I know that

1040
01:01:09,320 --> 01:01:13,040
Speaker 1: have gone through and Roger sort of tainted it for

1041
01:01:13,080 --> 01:01:15,120
Speaker 1: a lot of people. Roger tainted it for a lot

1042
01:01:15,160 --> 01:01:17,080
Speaker 1: of people that well, we've got to be careful of

1043
01:01:17,080 --> 01:01:19,720
Speaker 1: that because look what we created. We've created Roger. I

1044
01:01:19,800 --> 01:01:22,880
Speaker 1: think we still need strong characters in the police, but

1045
01:01:23,280 --> 01:01:24,480
Speaker 1: with a moral compass.

1046
01:01:24,600 --> 01:01:28,280
Speaker 2: That clearly that's right, And I agree entirely with you

1047
01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:32,400
Speaker 2: that people who worked with Roger were tainted and often

1048
01:01:32,560 --> 01:01:35,640
Speaker 2: unfairly and some of them were hard men because they

1049
01:01:35,680 --> 01:01:38,880
Speaker 2: were pretty much were all men back then. But it

1050
01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:42,040
Speaker 2: was a pretty bloody hard job, and most of them,

1051
01:01:42,600 --> 01:01:46,720
Speaker 2: in my opinion, maintained some sort of compass. There might

1052
01:01:46,760 --> 01:01:50,200
Speaker 2: have been a few things, but they weren't running around

1053
01:01:51,160 --> 01:01:55,480
Speaker 2: doing what Roger was doing. They certainly weren't boasting about it.

1054
01:01:56,240 --> 01:02:00,760
Speaker 2: They weren't seeking the limelight. And you know, sure we

1055
01:02:00,800 --> 01:02:04,680
Speaker 2: do need hard cops. We need detectives who you know,

1056
01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:07,440
Speaker 2: I wouldn't use the word intimidating, certainly not to the public,

1057
01:02:07,800 --> 01:02:13,920
Speaker 2: but you need hard detectives, you know, to who criminals

1058
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:17,120
Speaker 2: look at and go, oh, I really don't want to

1059
01:02:17,200 --> 01:02:19,880
Speaker 2: run into that bloke or that woman because I know

1060
01:02:19,960 --> 01:02:21,120
Speaker 2: I'm going to be in trouble.

1061
01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:23,280
Speaker 1: At one hundred percent. And that's sort of tapping into

1062
01:02:23,440 --> 01:02:25,960
Speaker 1: what I was saying. What Roger's created is that it's

1063
01:02:26,080 --> 01:02:29,200
Speaker 1: very easy to slap that down because it's not when

1064
01:02:29,240 --> 01:02:31,680
Speaker 1: I was a young detective, I was inspired by people

1065
01:02:31,720 --> 01:02:35,440
Speaker 1: that had a reputation and I was thinking, look at

1066
01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:39,960
Speaker 1: how they do their work. Roger where I don't like

1067
01:02:40,040 --> 01:02:42,680
Speaker 1: him for a thousand reasons, But what pisces me off

1068
01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:46,480
Speaker 1: is that the hard detectives are being shamed by people

1069
01:02:46,560 --> 01:02:50,680
Speaker 1: like that. Policing is a robust sports. Sometimes it's a

1070
01:02:50,720 --> 01:02:54,280
Speaker 1: contact sport, ye, and you've got to be prepared to

1071
01:02:54,320 --> 01:02:56,440
Speaker 1: get in there, and if you can do it and

1072
01:02:56,480 --> 01:03:00,080
Speaker 1: hold that moral compass, that's the way to go. But

1073
01:03:00,440 --> 01:03:03,840
Speaker 1: Roger's a classic example of not. But I agree with

1074
01:03:03,880 --> 01:03:06,640
Speaker 1: you are just probably finish off because we've talked about

1075
01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:10,680
Speaker 1: a bygone era. There are too many checks and balances

1076
01:03:10,720 --> 01:03:12,960
Speaker 1: in place now in policing. I can't see it ever

1077
01:03:12,960 --> 01:03:16,240
Speaker 1: happening again. I think even the media are not so

1078
01:03:16,400 --> 01:03:19,960
Speaker 1: in bed with the police in most circumstances and the

1079
01:03:20,000 --> 01:03:23,960
Speaker 1: courts that you need autonomy between all those areas, the courts,

1080
01:03:24,200 --> 01:03:27,400
Speaker 1: media and the police. So I can't see it happening.

1081
01:03:27,960 --> 01:03:30,040
Speaker 1: If it does, it's going to be fascinating if they

1082
01:03:30,040 --> 01:03:31,959
Speaker 1: can outplate play these two.

1083
01:03:32,120 --> 01:03:35,760
Speaker 2: I don't think it will ever be as gritty or

1084
01:03:36,160 --> 01:03:41,840
Speaker 2: bad or colorful as that era of the sort of

1085
01:03:41,840 --> 01:03:46,240
Speaker 2: the seventies and early eighties and those two guys, Rogerson

1086
01:03:46,320 --> 01:03:50,880
Speaker 2: and need you know wow, so much happened around them,

1087
01:03:51,360 --> 01:03:57,040
Speaker 2: so many shootings, people who cross their paths, disappearing. I mean,

1088
01:03:57,560 --> 01:03:59,240
Speaker 2: hopefully we're not going to see that again.

1089
01:03:59,400 --> 01:03:59,600
Speaker 3: Ever.

1090
01:04:00,120 --> 01:04:02,600
Speaker 1: Well, I'll give a shout out to your book too, Neil,

1091
01:04:02,640 --> 01:04:05,640
Speaker 1: because yeah, as I said, I understood that world, but

1092
01:04:05,720 --> 01:04:08,400
Speaker 1: that's a deep dive into it. So the Kingping and

1093
01:04:08,440 --> 01:04:12,160
Speaker 1: the crooked cop, it's a good breed and I see

1094
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:14,200
Speaker 1: it now as part of folk law and history at

1095
01:04:14,200 --> 01:04:16,760
Speaker 1: that time. Thanks for coming on, I catch killers.

1096
01:04:17,000 --> 01:04:18,280
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me cheers.

1097
01:04:22,240 --> 01:04:24,040
Speaker 1: I think a lot of you have probably seen that

1098
01:04:24,160 --> 01:04:28,200
Speaker 1: TV series Blue Murder about Roger Rogerson and Neddie Smith

1099
01:04:28,240 --> 01:04:30,960
Speaker 1: and things that went on in Sydney's underworld in the

1100
01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:34,720
Speaker 1: seventies and eighties. Well, today I've spoken to Neil Mercer

1101
01:04:34,760 --> 01:04:37,800
Speaker 1: and he's given us a full proper insight into that world.

1102
01:04:37,840 --> 01:04:40,480
Speaker 1: And let me tear it was murky, and I learned

1103
01:04:40,480 --> 01:04:42,400
Speaker 1: things I thought I knew about what went on with

1104
01:04:42,520 --> 01:04:46,160
Speaker 1: Roger Rogerson and Neddie Smith. But I've got to say

1105
01:04:46,640 --> 01:04:49,760
Speaker 1: the extent of their brazenness and criminality is just sex

1106
01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:51,840
Speaker 1: year old there, and dabe it never happens again.