1 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:05,320 Speaker 1: Hello, I'm torri Archbold. For two decades, I've nurtured the 2 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:09,880 Speaker 1: world's top performing retail brands and celebrities. Now I'm asking entrepreneurs, CEOs, 3 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: and influencers to share their own secrets to success. They're highs, 4 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 1: their lows, the game changing moments, and how they got 5 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:19,080 Speaker 1: to where they are today. It's a podcast equivalent of 6 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: opening the best Little Black Book of Contacts. Ever. If 7 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:24,279 Speaker 1: this resonates with you and you're ready to step outside 8 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:26,599 Speaker 1: of your comfort zone and into your power zone, I 9 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: invite you to join my exclusive community via our website, 10 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: The Powerful dash Steps dot com. Welcome to the Powerful 11 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: Stories Podcast. Now today we're going to be talking about 12 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: financial abuse, which a lot of people don't want to 13 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:45,520 Speaker 1: admit to, or they don't want to talk about what's 14 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:49,480 Speaker 1: actually going on in their life, whether it's with friends, 15 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 1: whether it's with family or colleagues. Now I feel very, 16 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: very privileged to have a dear old friend of mine, 17 00:00:56,440 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: Katherine Fitzpatrick, who is the founder and director of Flequidy Adventures, 18 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 1: an independent consultancy that helps businesses improve outcomes for their 19 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: customers experiencing vulnerability. Her mission is to disrupt financial abuse, 20 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 1: but most importantly, she's an advocate for systematic change, so 21 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: knowledgeable on this topic. You are an AFI one hundred 22 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: Women of Influence. You are the right person to be 23 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:30,759 Speaker 1: deep diving on this very powerful conversation today. Welcome Catherine 24 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 1: to the Powerful Stories podcast. 25 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 2: Thanks Toy, I'm really pleased to be here. And you 26 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:39,120 Speaker 2: did say old friend, I think long time acquaintance would 27 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 2: be better than old Thank you. 28 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: I did think that when I said old, but I 29 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:47,559 Speaker 1: like long time because we have known each other for 30 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: almost two decades. I would say, since Speller is almost twenty. 31 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 2: And the same with my daughter, which I think is 32 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 2: when we met when I was doing some work for 33 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 2: UNISEEF and you were working for Murray Claire and we 34 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 2: help to raise awareness of their fantastic programs around HIV 35 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 2: AIDS by joining with fashion designers to design outfits for 36 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 2: teddy bears. 37 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:11,959 Speaker 1: Amazing, I know, and who would have known that We're 38 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:17,079 Speaker 1: now advocating for another area that women need help with. 39 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: And I'd love to be able to just deep dive 40 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 1: on the topic of what actually is financial abuse because 41 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: a lot of people listening to this, like Tory, what 42 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 1: is this topic? How does it apply to me? 43 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 2: Yeah? So Financial abuse is something that a lot of 44 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 2: people don't necessarily even recognize when they're in it. It's 45 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 2: a form of domestic and family violence. And what it 46 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 2: is is when someone tries to control another person in 47 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 2: the relationship through their access to money. What does that mean. 48 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 2: It might mean that you get an allowance, and you 49 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 2: only get the allowance if you weigh the right weight, 50 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 2: or if you do the jobs that you need to 51 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 2: do around the house that you're instructed to do, or 52 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 2: you might not get any money at all, so you 53 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 2: don't have any ability to make decisions for yourself or 54 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 2: in fact, even try to leave if you're in an 55 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 2: abusive relationship. I saw your face when I said some 56 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 2: of those examples, Tory. They are examples that my colleagues 57 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 2: and I, over the last decade or so, have heard 58 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 2: from women. 59 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 1: So if I'm sitting here in an absolute shock, which 60 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 1: no doubt you were as well when these came across 61 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:32,359 Speaker 1: your desk in various roles that you've had, why did 62 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: you decide that you wanted to change the system, that 63 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 1: you wanted to empower others, that there was another way 64 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 1: to be in a relationship. 65 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 2: Well, I guess it started for me when I was 66 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 2: a pretty young journalist and I was twenty four and 67 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 2: I covered a terrible crime in Western Australia where a 68 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 2: woman was in bed with her children and her ex 69 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 2: husband laid in wait and then shot and killed the 70 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 2: two children, shot her in the leg, she lost her leg, 71 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 2: and he committed suicide. About a year after that crime, 72 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 2: I contacted her and asked her could I please tell 73 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:16,919 Speaker 2: her story. Her name's Anne O'Neil. She's extraordinary and she 74 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 2: gave me the great privilege of being the first journalist 75 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 2: to ever interview her. And when I spoke to her, 76 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 2: her experience just affected me profoundly, and it's always motivated 77 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 2: me in every single role that I've had. So I 78 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 2: was a journalist, I've worked in politics and government and 79 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:39,160 Speaker 2: not for profit and in corporates. So when Rosie Batty 80 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 2: was then made Australian of the Year in twenty fifteen, 81 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 2: so that was like twenty years after I first met Anne, 82 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 2: I was very fortunate to be working at an organization 83 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 2: where our CEO just came back and said we need 84 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 2: to do something and I said, well, here, I think 85 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:56,840 Speaker 2: this is what we need to do. So he said, 86 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 2: go do it, and I rang and said, can you 87 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 2: come and help us, can you tell us what we 88 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 2: need to do. I worked for a really big bank 89 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 2: and we really needed to work out what's a role 90 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 2: for a bank in domestic and family violence. Isn't this 91 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:15,920 Speaker 2: something that's behind closed doors? And we talked to a 92 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:18,039 Speaker 2: lot of victim survivors, a lot of people in the 93 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 2: women's safety sector, and said, we do have a role here. 94 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 2: And one of the ways it shows up in a 95 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:28,839 Speaker 2: bank and any financial service is through financial abuse. That's 96 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 2: sort of the motivation for me, and then I found 97 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 2: that working in a big bank. I've worked in two 98 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 2: of Australia's biggest banks. I've been on advisory councils for 99 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,799 Speaker 2: the Commonwealth government and for the New South Wales government 100 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 2: and through other organizations. I'm just motivated to change it 101 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 2: because women shouldn't have to choose between violence and poverty. 102 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:59,840 Speaker 2: They shouldn't have to they we just need men to stop. 103 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 2: The reason I set up my social enterprise is to 104 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 2: disrupt financial abuse. It's to disrupt gender bias. It's to 105 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 2: do that through better product and service design. Because everything 106 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 2: that we've been doing today isn't working and there are 107 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:18,720 Speaker 2: vast amounts of women who are stuck in really violent 108 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 2: relationships who don't have the ability to leave, and it 109 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 2: shouldn't be up to them to leave, It should be 110 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:26,160 Speaker 2: up to the men to stop. 111 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 1: So some of the statistics around this because I think 112 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 1: financial abuse is something that a lot of people don't 113 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:38,280 Speaker 1: physically see, and traditionally we see domestic violence as in like, 114 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:42,279 Speaker 1: it's violence, like someone hitting someone, it's not like emotional 115 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: and psychological. What are the warning signs and what are 116 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 1: the trigger points that might alert someone to be able 117 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:54,839 Speaker 1: to help another person that's stuck in a situation like this. 118 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:58,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's really interesting because a lot of 119 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,919 Speaker 2: people who are in a financially use of relationship don't 120 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 2: realize necessarily that they're in it, but other people might 121 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:08,840 Speaker 2: be able to see, or they might not because it 122 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 2: is really hard to see. And there's a lot of 123 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 2: people who live with the shame and the guilt and 124 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 2: the terror of being in a controlling relationship. So we 125 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 2: know that one in six women are impacted by financial 126 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 2: abuse over their lifetime. That's almost the same rate as 127 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 2: physical violence. So one of the things that you might 128 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 2: see if you were a friend or family member or 129 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 2: a colleague is someone might just say, look, I can't 130 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 2: go out with you and make excuses where they used 131 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 2: to be able to go out because they need to 132 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 2: be home on time, because they don't have any money 133 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 2: to be able to pay for things. They might not 134 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 2: be buying coffee anymore at work, some little signs like that. 135 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 2: But I guess for women who might be experience andying 136 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 2: that financial control, they might come to see that there've 137 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 2: been credit cards that have been taken out in their 138 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 2: name that they had no idea about. There might be 139 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 2: cash that was in the offset account, or cash in 140 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 2: a joint account that's all of a sudden been cleared 141 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 2: out and they've got no access to it. For when 142 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 2: somebody separates or divorce, that is a time that financial 143 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 2: abuse can either start or it can worsen and escalate. 144 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 2: So unfortunately, the ways that perpetrators try to control someone 145 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 2: through their access to their money might happen long after 146 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 2: they've separated or divorced or escaped that relationship. 147 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 1: So I've been on the receiving end of this where 148 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:50,560 Speaker 1: I woke up one morning and I'd had credit cards 149 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 1: that I didn't even know that I had were wrapped 150 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 1: up with tens of thousands of dollars. I also was 151 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: on the hook for someone else's dead. I had someone 152 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 1: who wanted to take out a car lease in my name. 153 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 1: And I've also had someone that has said that they 154 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 1: were paying the rent but didn't pay it. And then 155 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 1: I got asked to leave my family home with my daughter. Now, 156 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 1: I know that a lot of people are not as 157 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 1: fortunate as what I am because I have the get 158 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 1: up and go to go out and you know, create 159 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 1: and make money, you know, And I think that there's 160 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 1: some kind of makeup in me where I have that 161 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:37,680 Speaker 1: ability to survive, but not everyone has that ability. Where 162 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:40,959 Speaker 1: can you seek help? Because I know when this happened 163 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 1: to me, I was very ashamed about what was happening. 164 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: I didn't want to say anything. I was being chased 165 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 1: for debt that I knew wasn't mine, but I was 166 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 1: responsible for because it was placed in my name. It's 167 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: a really hard situation to be Now. I didn't ask 168 00:09:57,040 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: anyone for help. I just extracted my self out of 169 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 1: that situation because I was embarrassed by it. But if 170 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 1: you decided to get rid of the guilt and the 171 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: shame around that, where can you ask for help? 172 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 2: First of all Tory, I'm so sorry that that's happened 173 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:19,440 Speaker 2: to you. And unfortunately you're not the only person I've 174 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:24,560 Speaker 2: heard that from. So many women have experienced that, and 175 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 2: it can be the consequences can last for a lifetime. 176 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 2: It's why we see women who are over fifty five 177 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 2: as the fastest rate of homelessness people in Australia because 178 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 2: they're saddled with this debt. And you know what's really 179 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 2: interesting is nobody's saying, actually, well, very few people are saying, well, 180 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 2: it's in my name, but I don't want to have 181 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 2: to pay it. Most people will actually try really hard 182 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:52,439 Speaker 2: to repay the debt when it's in their name because 183 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:55,439 Speaker 2: they are ashamed and they don't want to have that 184 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 2: black mark on their credit report and all of those things. 185 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 2: But they shouldn't have to because actually it was somebody 186 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:04,560 Speaker 2: else who did that to them. So ways that you 187 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:08,600 Speaker 2: can get help, obviously, there's one eight hundred RESPECT, which 188 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 2: is a free national service that you can call and 189 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 2: they will help point you to some specialist services. There 190 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 2: are a range of different organizations that do specialize in 191 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:24,199 Speaker 2: financial abuse and economic abuse. I could name a few, 192 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 2: like the Center for Women's Economic Safety, good Shepherd has 193 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:32,840 Speaker 2: the Financial Independence Hub and here in New South Wales 194 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 2: there's Redfern Legal Center which has got a specialist financial 195 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 2: abuse service which is really terrific because they bring together 196 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 2: financial counselors as well as community legal center support, so 197 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:50,840 Speaker 2: lawyers who can help extract all the different things. I think. 198 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:53,319 Speaker 2: Also you can ask your friends for help, right if 199 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:55,560 Speaker 2: you feel okay to do that and safe to do that. 200 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:58,959 Speaker 2: One of the other things I've really learned is that 201 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 2: when you're in it, you're the only person who knows 202 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 2: about your own safety, and you need to be the 203 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:09,200 Speaker 2: person who makes your own decisions about that. So you're 204 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 2: going to know best, but it's where to go for 205 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:15,080 Speaker 2: that help, and the first person you speak to is 206 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 2: usually the most important. 207 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:19,319 Speaker 1: So important. So this happened to me when my daughter 208 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:24,199 Speaker 1: was nine months old. So the first person I called 209 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:26,959 Speaker 1: was my friend and I said, I need to leave 210 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 1: my family home and thankfully she was going away for 211 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:33,359 Speaker 1: a month with her husband and gave me her apartment 212 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:39,199 Speaker 1: and I was able to leave that situation. And really, 213 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 1: I mean my daughter wasn't even walking at that age. 214 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: It was incredibly hard. But really map out a plan 215 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:48,560 Speaker 1: as to how I was going to get bught, and 216 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 1: I mean, you know my story. It took me twelve 217 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 1: years to win the keys to freedom from everything that 218 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:58,440 Speaker 1: went on, but I ended up self representing, winning full 219 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 1: custody of my daughter and got restraining order. But I 220 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: find this topic so fascinating because nineteen years ago, none 221 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 1: of this information was available, and the papers and the 222 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 1: work that you've done to bring these to life is 223 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:19,080 Speaker 1: so important. But it also does start with the institutions 224 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 1: and the banks to be able to see the patterns, 225 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 1: you know, so that women like me and like you know, 226 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:28,840 Speaker 1: thousands of others out there don't have to go through 227 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:34,679 Speaker 1: this emotional, you know, turmoil because it's completely stressful, it's heartbreaking, 228 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:37,559 Speaker 1: and you know you're running on empty trying to solve 229 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 1: the situation. But how through your research and work, do 230 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:47,439 Speaker 1: these banks and institutions now have trigger points where they 231 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: can actually call women and say how can I help you? 232 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, and look, Tory, I just want to say I 233 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 2: stand on the shoulders of so many people who have 234 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 2: been doing this work for such a long time. So 235 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 2: I feel very privileged to have worked with a lot 236 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:07,560 Speaker 2: of people who've worked in women's safety, who've worked in 237 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 2: financial counseling and victim survivors who've been willing to talk 238 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 2: about their experiences so that people like me who've worked 239 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 2: in the corporate sector can better understand what are they 240 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 2: going through and how could we help. So one of 241 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 2: the things that I've seen in banking, So in banking, 242 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 2: not everyone loves a bank. Let's face it, people don't 243 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 2: really like banks. But you know what I've seen over 244 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 2: the years is banks have really understood that actually they 245 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 2: play a really critical role when somebody is experiencing domestic 246 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 2: and family violence and financial abuse. Why is that Because 247 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 2: research shows that women are more likely to contact their 248 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 2: bank about economic abuse than they are to talk to 249 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 2: a specialist family and domestic violence service. That's a really 250 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 2: big responsibility for banks. Why do they do that. They 251 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 2: do it because money gives you choices. They do it 252 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 2: to separate, to disentangle, and to start again. So you'll 253 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 2: see that there are a lot of banks that now 254 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 2: have trained people with specialist teams. I set up a 255 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 2: team at Commonwealth Bank to do that, for example, where 256 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 2: we had special training. This is what domestic and family 257 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 2: violence is, this is what financial abuse is. Unfortunately, sometimes 258 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 2: people have to repeat their stories, and that's something that 259 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 2: I know that lots of organizations are trying to work on. 260 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 2: So you shouldn't have to ring up and say I 261 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 2: am experiencing domestic violence. Here is my AVO, my apprehendive 262 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 2: violence order or some other police statement. You should just 263 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 2: be able to ring up and get to the right 264 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 2: person quickly. But when you do that, you'll find that 265 00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 2: people will be able to put in place some supports, 266 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 2: whether it's relief from a hardship, belief from paying your 267 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 2: mortgage for example, setting up a safe account, those sorts 268 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 2: of things. The other area that I didn't understand until 269 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 2: I saw it was anywhere that you've got a joint 270 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 2: account or anywhere that has got digital services is very 271 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 2: likely to be something that can be abused in an 272 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 2: abusive relationship. What do I mean by that? So when 273 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 2: I was at Commonwealth Bank and my team was supporting 274 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 2: customers experiencing domestic and family violence, one of them said 275 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 2: take a look at this, and in the account there 276 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 2: were these one cent transactions payments from her abusive ex 277 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 2: partner and they were really awful. And so I had 278 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 2: a teen of data scientists and I said, can you 279 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 2: just tell me is this a thing, and they looked 280 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 2: at eleven million transactions in a three month period and 281 00:16:55,560 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 2: found eight thousand of them were really serious abuse, threats, harassment, 282 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:07,639 Speaker 2: all sent for as little as content. Yeah, where you 283 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 2: would where I might send you some money through the 284 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 2: app and I would say thanks for lunch, happy birthday. 285 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 2: Those sorts of things people were writing, I hate you, 286 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 2: unblock me from Facebook. I read one that was nine 287 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 2: hundred messages long, nine hundred messages one cent at a time, 288 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:29,719 Speaker 2: so cost a total of nine dollars, and that included 289 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:34,199 Speaker 2: I can see you, I'm standing out the front. I 290 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:36,440 Speaker 2: want to kill you. I want to kill them all 291 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:42,359 Speaker 2: in a bank account. It's shocking, it's shocking and just horrendous. 292 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:44,159 Speaker 2: I can't imagine what it would be like to be 293 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:47,359 Speaker 2: on the receiving end of those messages. So that's called 294 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 2: tech facilitated abuse, but it's really linked with your finances. 295 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 2: What I'm really proud of in my career is that 296 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:58,920 Speaker 2: I was able to catalyze all Australian banks in Australia 297 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 2: to respond to that, taking that information, talking to victim survivors, 298 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 2: talking to the e Safety Commissioner who said, look at 299 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 2: safety by design, this is what I've built with the 300 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 2: tech sector and applying that in banking. So now that 301 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:17,880 Speaker 2: was twenty nineteen. Now we've seen banks have blocked over 302 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:20,919 Speaker 2: a million of those transactions. So they just block the 303 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:24,680 Speaker 2: bad words. So you can't send someone rent and say 304 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 2: midget pawn, which is what apparently a lot of young 305 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 2: people do, or other things like that. Gross, don't put 306 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:35,479 Speaker 2: it in your bank account. Seriously, I tell my kids 307 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:39,359 Speaker 2: and their friends. People can see what's in your bank account. 308 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 2: Don't put stuff in there that you don't want to 309 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 2: print out and take when you want to rent a house, right, 310 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 2: just treated as something a formal statement. But people so 311 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 2: bad words are blocked. Now there's also a number of 312 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 2: the banks use artificial intelligence and they run machine learning 313 00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 2: and they look at for the patterns of that abuse, 314 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 2: and then they have humans who read that and then 315 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:05,719 Speaker 2: they intervene and so they could be contacting the recipients 316 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 2: of those messages or in two cases, banks told me 317 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 2: they write to the people who send the abuse and 318 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:16,400 Speaker 2: they say, hey, we can see you. If you don't stop, 319 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:20,639 Speaker 2: we will suspend you or will exit you from the bank. 320 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 2: And what they told me is that more than ninety 321 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 2: percent of people who get those letters stop sending the 322 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:27,360 Speaker 2: abuse through bank accounts. 323 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 1: Well, that's very powerful because I don't think i'd ever 324 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:31,679 Speaker 1: want to receive a letter like that. But when you 325 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 1: get someone who's like my eyes on you make a change, 326 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 1: it is extremely powerful. What are some of the statistics 327 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:43,399 Speaker 1: around domestic violence linked to this, Well. 328 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:47,159 Speaker 2: We do know that one in six women experience financial abuse, 329 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 2: and that's about the same rate as women experience physical violence. 330 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:57,640 Speaker 2: It's about one in twelve men who might experience financial abuse. 331 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:02,160 Speaker 2: We know that in domestic and family violence cases about 332 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 2: ninety percent of them experience financial abuse, so that's present 333 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:10,440 Speaker 2: at the same time as violence. And when men use 334 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 2: money to control they are more likely to use physical 335 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 2: violence as well. There's been some reports that show that 336 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,160 Speaker 2: the cost of financial abuse to victim survivors is five 337 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 2: point seven billion dollars a year in Australia. It's a 338 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:29,399 Speaker 2: huge amount of money that then women who suffer from 339 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 2: the gender pay gap, who don't have as much money 340 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:35,400 Speaker 2: in their superannuation, who are taking time out of work 341 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:39,720 Speaker 2: to be primary carers, and then they might experience this 342 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 2: lack of access to money and it being used to 343 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 2: control them. It just accumulates. 344 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 1: So I have a crazy story which I haven't shared 345 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 1: on the podcast, but I think it could be time. 346 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 1: So I was the primary care of my daughter, and 347 00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 1: as you know, I was in and out of court 348 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 1: for twelve years. Not only was I taken to court 349 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:05,359 Speaker 1: so that I would end up with nothing, I also 350 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:09,359 Speaker 1: had my frequent flyer cardbroken into to find out what 351 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 1: plane I was on. And my ex ended up placing 352 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 1: himself when he claimed he was unemployed. Next to me 353 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:21,159 Speaker 1: on a plane from Sydney to Melbourne and said to me, 354 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:23,920 Speaker 1: we're in the middle of you know what's going to 355 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: happen with my daughter? And I said, it's about her. 356 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 1: It's not about us, it's whatever the outcome is. It's 357 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:33,880 Speaker 1: about her highest and greatest good, her stability, her future. 358 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 1: And he said to me, I will never stop taking 359 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 1: you to court until you're left with nothing. And I 360 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:47,200 Speaker 1: was obviously very visibly distressed, and the air hostess kindly 361 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:49,680 Speaker 1: came over and got me and moved me further up. 362 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 1: And I remember calling my lawyer after that, saying, number one, 363 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: how did he end up? We don't even share the 364 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 1: same last name. Next to me on a plane he's 365 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 1: claiming he's unemployed. He keeps changing lawyers so he doesn't 366 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:07,879 Speaker 1: have to pay for anything. I'm showing up, I'm putting 367 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:10,840 Speaker 1: food on the table, I'm building a business. I'm paying 368 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 1: my bills for legal representation. How did all this happen? 369 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 1: And he goes, this is a one in a million 370 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:22,639 Speaker 1: chance that this man could have done that, and it 371 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,399 Speaker 1: years later I knew what it was. He'd broken into 372 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:30,160 Speaker 1: every single password in an account that I had, and 373 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 1: it was like this terror train of like no matter 374 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 1: where you turn, something's there to block you. And then 375 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 1: I remember sitting in court, you know, after one time 376 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:45,159 Speaker 1: paying eight thousand dollars to renew my daughter's passport so 377 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,159 Speaker 1: that she could travel with me for work when she 378 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:49,520 Speaker 1: was younger. And now I look at it and I 379 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 1: think it cost a couple of hundred dollars to run 380 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:54,159 Speaker 1: your passport. I paid eight thousand because I had to 381 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 1: jump through hoops, because he really did want to drain 382 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: me with nothing, right, He wanted me to have nothing. 383 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:01,639 Speaker 1: But what he didn't realize was that that would affect 384 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:05,160 Speaker 1: my daughter. I remember my lawyer saying to me, this 385 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 1: is never going to go away. And then he said 386 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 1: to me, this is about money, and I said, I know, 387 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,200 Speaker 1: and he said to me, I know, this sounds really terrible, 388 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:17,639 Speaker 1: but what if you offered him money to go away? 389 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:22,399 Speaker 1: And that was a very very real consideration for me. 390 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:26,439 Speaker 1: And I won't disclose what happened at the end, but 391 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,919 Speaker 1: that just triggered a whole thought process to me as 392 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,639 Speaker 1: like a reign of terror of twelve years of my life, 393 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 1: which left me with PDSD, left my daughter with PDSD. 394 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 1: How do you untangle yourself? And it does come down 395 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:44,120 Speaker 1: to that financial abuse piece and what makes the other 396 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:49,880 Speaker 1: person tick. But I reclaimed my power because what I did, 397 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,160 Speaker 1: and I'd love to recommend this to other people as well, 398 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 1: is I went and so a psychologist and I said, 399 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 1: take me inside the mind of who this person is, 400 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:04,159 Speaker 1: what makes them tick, and what do I need to 401 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 1: do to have that breakthrough to get the keys to freedom. 402 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 1: And that's one of the reasons why I downsized my 403 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:14,879 Speaker 1: agency and became more available to myself, because, as you know, 404 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:17,199 Speaker 1: I had that near death experience and that was just 405 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 1: complete complete stress of this whole situation, which is why 406 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 1: I really wanted to share today this story about financial abuse, 407 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 1: because if you are in a relationship like this right now, 408 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 1: you can get help. Don't be afraid to ask for help. 409 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,760 Speaker 1: But also you can end up with a happy heart 410 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: because I married a great man many years later, and 411 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 1: you know I got the keys to freedom, but it 412 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:48,119 Speaker 1: was after twelve years of like complete help. What is 413 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 1: the usual cycle that people stay in this for? Like 414 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 1: how long are they in this before they can actually exit? 415 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 2: Look, i'd I don't know, But what I do know 416 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,879 Speaker 2: is that it can take a woman up to seven 417 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:09,440 Speaker 2: times before she's able to leave. And the first person 418 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:13,960 Speaker 2: that she tells and talks to about that experience is 419 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,639 Speaker 2: one of the most important. And it's why you hear 420 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 2: people say believe believe her when she tells you don't 421 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 2: judge her. She is the best person to judge what 422 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 2: her safety is, what she needs to do. We know 423 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 2: that if you have no money, the choice between staying 424 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 2: and leaving is often a choice between violence or poverty. 425 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 2: You've got to start again. It doesn't surprise me that 426 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:48,119 Speaker 2: you had all of those issues. One, you've got a 427 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:53,399 Speaker 2: stalker behavior where somebody is literally prying into all of 428 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 2: your accounts. That's called tech facilitated abuse. These days, they 429 00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 2: probably didn't even talk about it that much twelve years old, 430 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 2: you know at the start of that that is really 431 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 2: typical now. And you talk to people who are working 432 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 2: in the sector and they will say, before a woman 433 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 2: goes into a refuge, they have to sweep her phone, 434 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 2: they have to sweep her car and remove all the 435 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 2: tracking devices. Changing passwords is just not good enough. You 436 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:24,440 Speaker 2: have to get new devices. They need to be safe. 437 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 2: You've got to set up things really differently. So there's 438 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 2: stalker behavior, there's the abuse of the court system. I'm 439 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,479 Speaker 2: going to keep taking you into court, so I'm going 440 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 2: to bleed you dry. And it isn't always actually about 441 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 2: the money. It's about control. So it's about this is 442 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:47,359 Speaker 2: the way I'm going to keep you in my life, 443 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 2: dancing to my chin and so breaking free of that 444 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,960 Speaker 2: is huge. The fact that you were able to do that, 445 00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,640 Speaker 2: the fact that women are able to do that with 446 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 2: support or sometimes just on their own, is extraordinary. You know, 447 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:10,159 Speaker 2: there's a community attitudes survey that's done in Australia and 448 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,720 Speaker 2: there's a lot of people who still hold the belief 449 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 2: why didn't she just leave? Where I think the question 450 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 2: is why didn't he just stop? That's the first question 451 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 2: he should just stop. Why didn't he stop? And then 452 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:29,360 Speaker 2: when you say why didn't she leave? Well, she may 453 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:33,640 Speaker 2: love him still, he could still be the parent of children. 454 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,440 Speaker 2: She might not even have the ability to leave because 455 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:42,239 Speaker 2: he's using these coercive, controlling tactics and keeping her in 456 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 2: there and reeling her in. And you've probably heard the 457 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:48,239 Speaker 2: expression like gas lading or love bombing. So it's like 458 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,119 Speaker 2: I love you, or do all these things for you, 459 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:56,360 Speaker 2: lovely kindness and loving acts, and then the next thing 460 00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:00,199 Speaker 2: you know, it's slap. I'm just not even physically, but 461 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 2: it's just like, nope, now you're not doing what I 462 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:07,119 Speaker 2: command you to do, so therefore you're going to be 463 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 2: punished for that. Living in that arrangement, it's like walking 464 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:15,359 Speaker 2: on eggshells, women say, and always saying, what do I 465 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,640 Speaker 2: need to do now so that I'm not punished or 466 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 2: money is not with held, or love is not with held, 467 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:24,680 Speaker 2: or I'm treated really violently. So I think that there 468 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 2: is a really macabre dance, and it's so hard for 469 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:35,399 Speaker 2: someone to extract themselves, and you've just described that. 470 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: I often think my life story is a little bit 471 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 1: like a Jackie Collins novel, only with a really good ending, 472 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 1: because now you know, it's like it's had everything, and 473 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 1: I'm kind of thinking, was I jinxed when I used 474 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 1: to sneak those books into my bedroom when I was younger, 475 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 1: read all this stuff and then all of a sudden 476 00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 1: it all becomes true. But what I do want to 477 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 1: leave on this note is that we can all survive 478 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 1: and we can thrive if we lean into the power 479 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 1: of experts and you know people, as you say, who's 480 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 1: the first person you call? One of that was my friend, 481 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 1: but it was also the local police station and sitting 482 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 1: in there going I think I'm crazy, but maybe I'm not, 483 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,320 Speaker 1: and then saying to me, you're not. I still keep 484 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 1: in contact with Amelia who helped me nineteen years ago, 485 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 1: and ironically, you know, she ended up being high up 486 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 1: in the police force. But ironically she texts me a 487 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,600 Speaker 1: couple of years ago and said, I'm going through the 488 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 1: same situation. Can you help me? And I was like, 489 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 1: of course. So I do think it's important for women 490 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 1: to speak up. I do think it's important for organizations 491 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 1: to tap into what you were doing, Catherine. But most importantly, 492 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 1: if you're listening to this podcast today and something triggers 493 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 1: something in you, where can we share with people that 494 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 1: they can go to either speak with someone that's going 495 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 1: to help them, or access information that you've created, Catherine, 496 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 1: so that they can just read and work out the 497 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:14,520 Speaker 1: next powerful step. Yeah. 498 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 2: Look, I think the best place to start is one 499 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,560 Speaker 2: eight hundred Respect. It's a free service and they will 500 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 2: then point you to the right organizations that are where 501 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 2: you live, and there's a number of other fantastic agencies 502 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 2: that provide you with that support. From my perspective, I 503 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 2: work with business to say what do you do and 504 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 2: what can what's your role in domestic and family violence. 505 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 2: So there's a national plan in Australia that there's a 506 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 2: ten year blueprint for the country and it's got this 507 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 2: ambitious goal to end gender violence in one generation and 508 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 2: it says there are three roles for business. One is 509 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 2: you need to foster gender equality in the workforce. The 510 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 2: second one is you need to provide lead to people 511 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 2: experiencing domestic and family violence so help and you know, 512 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 2: some organizations will provide leave to victim survivors. They'll also 513 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 2: provide leave to perpetrators so they can go to court 514 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 2: and those sorts of things, which is important because if 515 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 2: they don't that could also be a trigger for more 516 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 2: violence and abuse. But the third part of the National 517 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 2: Plan says that businesses need to have products and services 518 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 2: that are safe, that prevent misuse, and that hold perpetrators 519 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 2: to account. So that's what I work on. How do 520 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 2: you make sure that your products and services are safe 521 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 2: if they're being weaponized in the context of domestic violence. 522 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 2: No one wants to be the business that's a safe 523 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 2: haven for abusers. So how do you make changes to 524 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 2: those to disrupt the abuse, to make it much harder 525 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 2: for perpetrators to do that? How do you send a 526 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,640 Speaker 2: strong signal to them saying we don't want you to 527 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 2: misuse our products and services? And then how do you 528 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 2: make sure that you are guiding that better protection for 529 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 2: victim survivors? Because we've all got a role to play, 530 00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 2: and there's something that everyone can do in their own 531 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,920 Speaker 2: sphere of influence, and Tori, I think about the people 532 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 2: who are going to listen to your podcast and do 533 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:21,240 Speaker 2: your programs, smart capable, powerful women. If every single one 534 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 2: of them said what can I do? What can I 535 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 2: do differently and took action, it will be part of 536 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:32,280 Speaker 2: that movement that we need and the best one is 537 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 2: to support other women. 538 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 1: Were we going to support you as you create this movement? 539 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 1: And I just want to say thank you for sharing 540 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:44,280 Speaker 1: what financial abuse is most importantly, but how big business 541 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:45,960 Speaker 1: can get behind and prevent it. 542 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:48,160 Speaker 2: Thank you Catherine, my pleasure. 543 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 1: Thank you for being here with me today. I trust 544 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 1: that you enjoyed listening to yet another powerful story. Sometimes 545 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 1: we can forget just how incredible we are as women 546 00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,640 Speaker 1: and how important it is to support each other. I'd 547 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 1: love you to take a moment to review the podcast 548 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 1: and help support the show. You can also take a 549 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 1: screenshot of this episode and share it across your social media. 550 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 1: Be sure to tag me so that I can give 551 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 1: you a shout out too. I'm a true believer of 552 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:15,320 Speaker 1: women supporting women, and I look forward to connecting with 553 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:17,680 Speaker 1: you again soon. Much love, Torri