WEBVTT - My father Kevin Part 2 | 14 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:06.240 Why do you believe that Kevan's responsible for Rochelle's murder. 0:00:08.320 --> 0:00:12.000 My Dad's never raised his voice, raised a hand to me. 0:00:12.119 --> 0:00:15.600 I was never smacked. As a child, I experienced nothing but. 0:00:18.239 --> 0:00:19.200 Displays of love. 0:00:21.560 --> 0:00:24.680 But I know when I disappointed my dad and I 0:00:24.720 --> 0:00:31.040 saw evil sides of him. I saw how calculated and 0:00:31.120 --> 0:00:35.240 sinister he could be. I see the way he treated women. 0:00:36.680 --> 0:00:39.600 I knew he was capable of horrible things. 0:00:41.920 --> 0:00:42.720 I knew that. 0:00:44.280 --> 0:00:49.000 Crossing him could be dangerous for people. But I know 0:00:49.040 --> 0:00:54.320 how quickly he can turn on his most significant relationships, 0:00:55.320 --> 0:00:57.720 how you can go from being the center of his 0:00:57.880 --> 0:01:02.760 universe to nothing and no one easily. But I think 0:01:02.840 --> 0:01:07.720 my initial instinct when hearing that Rochelle had been murdered 0:01:07.840 --> 0:01:09.840 was that it was my father. 0:01:16.680 --> 0:01:20.360 I'm Ashley Hanson and you're listening to episode fourteen of 0:01:20.440 --> 0:01:24.720 Dear Rochelle, a podcast by True Crime Australia. This is 0:01:24.720 --> 0:01:28.679 the untold story of Rochelle Charles, a twenty three year 0:01:28.680 --> 0:01:32.959 old who was brutally murdered. Her killer has never been caught. 0:01:41.880 --> 0:01:44.160 This is the second of a two part interview with 0:01:44.280 --> 0:01:48.840 Kevin Stephen Corell's daughter Jazz. As you heard last episode, 0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:53.240 Jazz has some pretty strong beliefs about her father, particularly 0:01:53.320 --> 0:01:56.639 in relation to historic allegations for which she was found 0:01:56.840 --> 0:02:02.080 not guilty. Jazz also believes her dad murdered Rochelle. These 0:02:02.080 --> 0:02:05.880 are only Jazz's opinions about her dad. She's come to 0:02:05.960 --> 0:02:08.920 these views for a combination of her own interactions with 0:02:08.960 --> 0:02:13.760 her father and witnessing his relationships with other people, including 0:02:13.840 --> 0:02:18.080 both of his ex wives, the first being her mother. This, 0:02:18.200 --> 0:02:20.520 of course, doesn't make it proof of Kevin's guilt of 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:25.600 any offenses. These are only Jazz's opinions, and in fact, 0:02:25.639 --> 0:02:28.160 you will hear Jazz say she doesn't have any evidence 0:02:28.400 --> 0:02:31.880 that her dad committed these crimes, but we think it's 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:36.440 important for you to hear her voice. Kevin Carrell strenuously 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:40.840 denies any involvement in Rochelle's murder and has never been charged. 0:02:41.480 --> 0:02:44.600 He has willingly participated in three records of interview with 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:50.359 police and provided his DNA to investigators. A coroner presiding 0:02:50.360 --> 0:02:59.320 over Rochelle's inquest made an open finding, did you ever 0:02:59.360 --> 0:03:00.000 meet Rochelle? 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:00.560 Yes? 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:03.560 So did at Campton Holden, being that I think I 0:03:03.600 --> 0:03:06.720 met her when I was about sixteen. I was seventeen 0:03:06.760 --> 0:03:09.680 when she passed, so my brother had not long had 0:03:09.720 --> 0:03:13.360 his license and he often borrowed cars from Campton Holden 0:03:17.000 --> 0:03:19.600 and so you know, if he was heading out there 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:22.360 to visit out dad, I'd often go. 0:03:22.400 --> 0:03:24.440 And I met Rochelle a few times. 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:26.800 And at that age, you know, a young woman that age, 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:29.000 it's automatically someone you look up to, and you know 0:03:29.040 --> 0:03:33.000 she's very bubbly and friendly and yeah, just lovely, very 0:03:33.080 --> 0:03:33.640 very sweet. 0:03:34.160 --> 0:03:36.600 Do you remember being told that she died. 0:03:37.000 --> 0:03:40.800 I don't remember the specifics on how I found that out. 0:03:40.920 --> 0:03:43.960 I don't remember a conversation with my dad about it. 0:03:45.560 --> 0:03:48.960 My feeling is possibly that my brother told me, but 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:52.000 I can't confirm that my brother at that time had 0:03:52.000 --> 0:03:55.240 a closer relationship with my dad. At sixteen seventeen, I 0:03:55.440 --> 0:03:59.160 you know, didn't really have a lot to do with him. 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:03.600 The time she passed away and the time I fell 0:04:03.640 --> 0:04:08.720 pregnant with my eldest son, I had cut my dud 0:04:08.720 --> 0:04:11.560 from my life and told him I believed he did it. 0:04:14.800 --> 0:04:18.719 So this was before the inquest, but I had stated 0:04:18.960 --> 0:04:24.240 that I believed he was responsible, and it wasn't until 0:04:24.680 --> 0:04:27.320 later in my pregnancy that I reconnected with him, and 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:31.719 I think I apologize for saying that. I put it 0:04:31.760 --> 0:04:35.080 down to being angry at him, as. 0:04:34.920 --> 0:04:36.360 I said, you know, being seventeen. 0:04:36.400 --> 0:04:38.839 I don't remember the order in which I found things out, 0:04:38.880 --> 0:04:42.800 but I think there was possibly a conversation about, you know, 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:46.520 the defrauding of Campton Holden. And I was well aware 0:04:46.600 --> 0:04:51.960 that if Rochelle had become aware that he was doing that, 0:04:52.040 --> 0:04:54.719 and you know, if someone told me my dad stole something, 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:57.159 I would immediately believe that my dad is a thief. 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:00.960 You know, most of time he passes it off as 0:05:01.000 --> 0:05:03.520 a joke. We couldn't go anywhere without him pocketing something 0:05:03.640 --> 0:05:08.360 or you know, and it was always a joke to him. 0:05:08.640 --> 0:05:12.480 I think he really got off on I'm doing things 0:05:12.560 --> 0:05:16.440 like that, insignificant things. I remember one time from a 0:05:16.480 --> 0:05:18.360 shopping center, he's stall bins so he could have them 0:05:18.360 --> 0:05:21.840 at the back. They were nice, decretive bins. He'd brag 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:22.320 about it. 0:05:24.040 --> 0:05:26.840 When did you start to think that the fraud allegations 0:05:26.880 --> 0:05:29.520 against your father could have been his motive? 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:36.440 I think it was. He did definitely didn't tell me, 0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:42.360 because I remember I remember bringing it up to him 0:05:42.680 --> 0:05:46.159 about Camden Holden. I think I'd read it in a 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:51.000 paper and. 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:49.920 I asked him. 0:05:49.920 --> 0:05:52.360 I said, well, you know, let's this about you defrodi 0:05:52.400 --> 0:05:55.080 and he said, oh, they I remember something about seven 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:58.640 thousand dollars and he said, like, I'm going to kill 0:05:58.640 --> 0:06:02.800 a young girl over seven thousand dollars, and he denied 0:06:02.839 --> 0:06:04.320 that he had defrauded. 0:06:05.000 --> 0:06:06.920 Hold it. 0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:10.159 It's possibly that my brain's been attached to that for 0:06:10.240 --> 0:06:14.320 twenty four years, that the sexual element of it was 0:06:14.360 --> 0:06:20.320 something I had not considered, which is probably ridiculous to 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:25.400 most considering his history. I didn't view it that way though, 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:31.520 So Yeah, to me, it was about her exposing who 0:06:31.560 --> 0:06:36.599 he was. I think she possibly started questioning things because 0:06:36.640 --> 0:06:41.600 of her commissions. She made him paranoid. Probably didn't know 0:06:41.640 --> 0:06:45.000 how to get out of it. He felt like he 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:50.560 was being exposed. Exposing my dad in any way, exposing 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:57.039 or shining a light on him not being wonderful is 0:06:57.080 --> 0:07:02.880 what will set him off. I don't think he can 0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:05.080 bring anybody in. I don't think it would have occurred 0:07:05.120 --> 0:07:07.800 to him to say that to Rachelle, I'll give you 0:07:07.839 --> 0:07:11.400 some extra money if she found out about the fraud. 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:16.000 I think a lot of the time when my dad's 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:18.080 been in a situation where he's being exposed he just 0:07:18.080 --> 0:07:20.960 moves on to the next part of his life. I 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:23.240 don't know what it was about Rochelle. I think maybe 0:07:23.280 --> 0:07:25.240 being in a car yard too, like that. My dad 0:07:25.240 --> 0:07:27.360 worked in car yards my whole life. 0:07:28.160 --> 0:07:29.280 That being. 0:07:30.600 --> 0:07:35.600 Becoming well known it would have angered him. I remember 0:07:35.720 --> 0:07:38.800 there was one podcast where one of my dad's former 0:07:38.880 --> 0:07:45.640 partners said that my dad spoke about Rochelle's performance dropping 0:07:45.880 --> 0:07:47.119 in the months before she died. 0:07:48.480 --> 0:07:49.600 For him to speak. 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:51.760 About someone like that, my dad wouldn't care if someone 0:07:51.840 --> 0:07:53.360 wasn't working hard. 0:07:53.600 --> 0:07:55.880 It's not something that would affect him. He wasn't a 0:07:55.880 --> 0:07:57.800 hard worker, you know, he never has been. 0:07:58.720 --> 0:08:02.760 He's use of her had shifted, and he was probably 0:08:03.400 --> 0:08:07.040 trying to make Rachelle look a certain way so that 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:10.080 if she did expose him, or it could be that 0:08:10.200 --> 0:08:13.640 she had laughed at him, changed his view entirely. But 0:08:13.760 --> 0:08:16.200 also he would have been trying to change people's perceptions 0:08:16.600 --> 0:08:20.760 of Rochelle to make her look like a liar if 0:08:20.800 --> 0:08:23.400 she came out and exposed him. 0:08:24.000 --> 0:08:26.720 What about if she rejected him. 0:08:26.720 --> 0:08:29.440 Probably the most dangerous thing that she could have done. 0:08:35.360 --> 0:08:39.880 I don't think my dad gets rejected very often. I think, 0:08:40.040 --> 0:08:43.760 you know, in most social settings where you know, maybe 0:08:43.800 --> 0:08:46.400 he'd make an advance. You know, he'd probably never see 0:08:46.440 --> 0:08:50.959 that woman again if she, you know, was that mingles 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:55.959 or and that's fine, and he'd probably accept that and 0:08:56.720 --> 0:09:02.360 minimize how much he wanted her. But Rochelle being in 0:09:02.440 --> 0:09:08.880 his life every day, and how much he would have 0:09:08.920 --> 0:09:13.280 been infatuated with her, her rejecting him would have been 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:17.280 a massive hit to his ego. But if Rochelle had 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:21.079 rejected him or mocked him, or if it was known 0:09:21.320 --> 0:09:26.560 that she had rejected him, that would have infuriated him. 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:31.560 Because the biggest thing for my daddy is the show, 0:09:31.720 --> 0:09:38.640 the ego, the being revered by people. He needs to 0:09:38.679 --> 0:09:40.440 be sent a stage. He needs to be the most 0:09:40.440 --> 0:09:45.240 important person. It would have embarrassed him, and that's probably 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:47.760 the most dangerous thing you can do to my daddy 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:48.640 is embarrass him. 0:09:48.880 --> 0:09:53.680 You've had a lot of years to consider your father's behavior, 0:09:53.720 --> 0:09:57.160 what you know of him, and also now insights into 0:09:57.280 --> 0:10:01.640 Rochelle's case. What do you you believe happened to Rochelle 0:10:02.360 --> 0:10:02.880 that night? 0:10:03.960 --> 0:10:07.000 I believe that he lured her with the Walker shore. 0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:10.559 He convinced her they were going to pick it up. 0:10:11.480 --> 0:10:16.160 I don't know how he convinced her to drive her car. 0:10:16.559 --> 0:10:20.000 I think he met her at Bargo. That's the only 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:23.440 part that's missing for me. Why they went in her car. 0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:26.040 My dad's known to always be the driver. I've never 0:10:26.440 --> 0:10:28.960 driven with my dad in the car. Don't know how 0:10:29.000 --> 0:10:36.040 that happened. I think he then they went to Giroua. 0:10:39.880 --> 0:10:43.599 I think he wanted to kill her, possibly as punishment 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:47.520 for rejecting him, but I think it was about the 0:10:47.559 --> 0:10:57.200 exposure of him defrauding Camden Holden. I think he pulled 0:10:57.240 --> 0:11:02.480 up at that exact spot for the cement kid and 0:11:03.760 --> 0:11:06.720 when couldn't get that open. You know, he's left her 0:11:07.200 --> 0:11:12.800 where he has, but I think maybe there was a 0:11:12.840 --> 0:11:16.840 car near Bargo Poppy he's driven back there. I believe 0:11:16.920 --> 0:11:20.400 the reason her radio was stolen is my dad's terrified 0:11:20.400 --> 0:11:25.240 of technology. He doesn't understand it. When my dad doesn't 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:32.000 understand things, he's angry about them, and it's something we've 0:11:32.120 --> 0:11:36.320 sort of been able to mock him about technology, which 0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:40.600 insults him. It affects his ego. I think around that 0:11:40.720 --> 0:11:43.400 time would have been when you'd first sort of see 0:11:43.440 --> 0:11:47.920 on crime shows that radios had GPS features, and because 0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:51.680 my dad didn't understand I think it was important to 0:11:51.760 --> 0:11:53.600 him that he take that out. 0:11:54.240 --> 0:11:54.640 First thing. 0:11:54.760 --> 0:11:56.840 When I heard about the radio, which was only in 0:11:56.840 --> 0:12:00.520 the last few weeks, my first thought was he took 0:12:00.520 --> 0:12:05.080 it out because technology. There was also comments about, you know, 0:12:05.120 --> 0:12:08.280 the three different places he had to shoe, handbags, and 0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:12.880 the sheet. I think he would have been insulted with 0:12:13.040 --> 0:12:18.160 the way that was presented as him being fearful and 0:12:18.200 --> 0:12:21.800 anxious and disorganized. I think he did that intentionally and 0:12:21.840 --> 0:12:28.760 he thought it was forensically intelligent. He wouldn't like how 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:31.480 it was interpreted as he didn't do a good job, 0:12:36.880 --> 0:12:39.319 and he'd probably be smugging the fact that, well, if 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:41.240 it was so bad, well I got away with that. 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:47.360 I dud thinks he knows the legal system, and he doesn't. 0:12:47.679 --> 0:12:50.040 A few times I've had to explain things, and you know, 0:12:50.080 --> 0:12:53.480 he doesn't like that at all. He's never had any 0:12:53.520 --> 0:12:56.679 regard whatsoever for my intelligence, and despite my degree, I 0:12:56.720 --> 0:12:59.720 could fill him in and he'd just get frustrated. He 0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:04.880 thinks he knows everything about it because of watching I 0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:09.400 See You It's those shows. But I think he thinks 0:13:09.400 --> 0:13:17.400 of himself as someone who, rather than luck, it's because 0:13:17.400 --> 0:13:18.040 of his skill. 0:13:18.200 --> 0:13:20.160 He's got away with things. I think that's how he 0:13:20.280 --> 0:13:20.599 views it. 0:13:21.120 --> 0:13:25.120 Your father must be afforded the presumption of innocence. But 0:13:25.240 --> 0:13:28.360 why do you believe he's gotten away with Rochelle's murder. 0:13:28.920 --> 0:13:29.960 I honestly couldn't tell you. 0:13:30.000 --> 0:13:34.320 I think my dad's probably the luckiest man I've ever known, 0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:37.320 and I've always seen luck on his side. 0:13:38.480 --> 0:13:39.680 I remember my mom. 0:13:39.880 --> 0:13:44.600 My mom was definitely never someone who, you know, even 0:13:44.600 --> 0:13:46.760 though she had valid reason to say a lot of 0:13:46.800 --> 0:13:49.040 things about my father, she wasn't one of those mothers 0:13:49.080 --> 0:13:52.559 whoever bad mouthed us. She'd stopped my grandparents from ever 0:13:52.600 --> 0:13:55.679 saying anything bad as well. But she used to always say, 0:13:55.840 --> 0:13:58.560 your father will always lean on his feet. I heard 0:13:58.559 --> 0:14:01.959 that a billion times through my life, and he does. 0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:08.160 If we did a ruffle somewhere, my dad would win. 0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:11.760 My dad always got the best parking spot. I've seen 0:14:11.920 --> 0:14:15.880 him just have this extraordinary luck, didn't have a once 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:21.280 or twice repeatedly all the time. I've never known anyone 0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:23.480 with his luck, and I'm sort of the opposite. I 0:14:23.520 --> 0:14:26.760 have the opposite luck. I get every light. My dad 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:31.640 never gets them. I think his luck is just it's 0:14:31.680 --> 0:14:36.040 something else, and I don't know where it comes from 0:14:36.200 --> 0:14:38.200 I think. You know, when you look at his cases 0:14:38.200 --> 0:14:42.160 from the eighties, you can point to the times you 0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:49.120 know victims weren't believed. My dad is very charismatic, very charming, 0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:53.480 and he can convince people of many different things. He 0:14:53.600 --> 0:14:55.960 just packs up and then he lands on his feet 0:14:55.960 --> 0:15:00.360 again every time. And I think because he's got away 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:03.560 with so many things, he does feel untouchable and invincible. 0:15:04.680 --> 0:15:07.600 I've never seen my dad anxious or scared of anything. 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:11.480 He has a very very low. 0:15:11.400 --> 0:15:14.720 Range of emotions. There's anger, which he suppresses, but I 0:15:14.760 --> 0:15:16.320 can see it in his eyes. I know when my 0:15:16.400 --> 0:15:22.080 dad's angry, but he doesn't show it. And there's happy 0:15:22.480 --> 0:15:28.840 fun that version of my dad, and that's most of 0:15:28.880 --> 0:15:34.280 the time. Yeah, but there's not a wide range, and 0:15:34.320 --> 0:15:39.960 he just he's used that to win people over and 0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:44.400 have people defend him. There were quite a few years 0:15:44.440 --> 0:15:50.000 that I know I protected him where people would have 0:15:50.040 --> 0:15:52.320 their doubts and I would convince them that, you know, 0:15:52.320 --> 0:15:57.840 I wouldn't have someone like that in my life. I 0:15:57.920 --> 0:16:00.720 always feel guilt and shame about that, because deep down 0:16:00.760 --> 0:16:04.040 I knew, but I needed other people to not believe that. 0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:09.640 My dad was a big support of mine. That sounds disgraceful. 0:16:09.680 --> 0:16:10.440 I know that. 0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:14.480 You know I was willing to let something like murder 0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:18.840 slide for the support he offered, But there was a 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:21.400 lot of trauma in my life. I was not well, 0:16:22.720 --> 0:16:26.120 and I didn't know how to deal with all of this. 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:30.960 Do you remember realizing he was being investigated over Rochelle's matter. 0:16:31.360 --> 0:16:36.680 I remember my mum's parents had told me they rang 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:39.160 the police to tell them about my dad's real name, 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:46.080 with his former history, and I remember the police coming 0:16:46.120 --> 0:16:49.440 out to interview me. I don't remember a lot of questions. 0:16:49.640 --> 0:16:52.280 I just remember them asking about a sheet more than anything. 0:16:53.080 --> 0:16:55.480 I can't remember exactly what I said to them at 0:16:55.520 --> 0:16:58.920 the time, but they were asking me if I had 0:16:58.960 --> 0:17:03.760 been to his place at Lake Laura, and yeah, I'd 0:17:03.800 --> 0:17:07.440 bet there maybe once or twice. So I couldn't give 0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:10.440 them a lot of information, but. 0:17:12.840 --> 0:17:13.680 I just knew. 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:16.520 I don't know, I always had that feeling, but I 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:22.840 think the minute I knew was when the inquest was 0:17:22.880 --> 0:17:29.679 happening and it was printed about Rochelle's fingers, and my 0:17:29.760 --> 0:17:31.480 dad was coming over daily at that time, and he 0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:35.520 was falling apart about what they were printing about him, 0:17:35.600 --> 0:17:41.800 and at that time. It was horrible. You know, I 0:17:41.880 --> 0:17:45.560 lost a lot of friends through that time with no 0:17:45.680 --> 0:17:49.040 notice or anything. But I remember him coming over and 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:53.480 I had read about Rochelle being a and Dad walked 0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:56.320 into my house and he said, they're saying I've made 0:17:56.400 --> 0:17:59.880 up this comment about the fingers. I've never said that, 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:04.280 But I knew at that moment that he'd done it 0:18:04.320 --> 0:18:07.240 because he told me the story multiple times. He had 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:10.800 said that Rachelle's fingers were cut off because she was 0:18:10.840 --> 0:18:15.240 dealing drugs for bikers, and that's a biker punishment. He 0:18:15.320 --> 0:18:16.960 had a fascination with bikers. 0:18:17.840 --> 0:18:18.640 But the second he. 0:18:18.560 --> 0:18:22.200 Told me that that was a lie and he never 0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:27.480 said those things, that's when I realized he's done this. 0:18:27.760 --> 0:18:33.280 That was the moment. And I remember. 0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:36.840 Talking to my oldest son when there was a lot 0:18:36.840 --> 0:18:37.400 of stuff in. 0:18:37.320 --> 0:18:41.400 The media, and I mean, my baby boy was maybe twelve, 0:18:44.160 --> 0:18:49.520 and he wanted to know about the case. He knew 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:52.160 that his grandfather had been in the media and stuff. 0:18:52.200 --> 0:18:54.399 It was way too young to have those conversations, but 0:18:54.480 --> 0:18:56.040 I was worried about what would be said in the 0:18:56.040 --> 0:19:00.000 school yard, and you know, his friend's parents having conversations 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:01.160 with friends and stuff. 0:19:01.600 --> 0:19:03.120 So I had to tell me about the case, and. 0:19:03.080 --> 0:19:06.080 I still urged it to my lips the minute I 0:19:06.119 --> 0:19:11.040 told him about the fingers and the pain in my 0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:16.200 son's face realizing who his grandfather was. I've never ever 0:19:16.280 --> 0:19:19.080 forgotten that conversation. I don't remember how we sat down 0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:21.000 and talked. I know I would have been gentle, and 0:19:22.520 --> 0:19:25.560 but the second I said about the fingers his face. 0:19:25.880 --> 0:19:26.680 Never forget it. 0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:30.840 And for you, it was this conversation sitting on the 0:19:30.880 --> 0:19:34.560 couch when he said I never said that. 0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:36.760 I never said that. What was that like for you? 0:19:36.800 --> 0:19:39.119 In that moment? Take me into that room. 0:19:40.000 --> 0:19:44.760 I just wanted to pass out. I just I still 0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:47.440 remember just feeling electrified. 0:19:52.040 --> 0:19:52.879 Were you fearful? 0:19:53.280 --> 0:19:53.920 At that time? 0:19:54.960 --> 0:19:57.040 I didn't think my dad would hurt me. There have 0:19:57.160 --> 0:19:59.680 been many periods through my life there I did believe 0:19:59.680 --> 0:20:01.400 my dad would hurt me if he could get away 0:20:01.440 --> 0:20:06.320 with it. But at that time, I think he was 0:20:06.560 --> 0:20:11.960 very dependent on people thinking he's innocent, and he viewed 0:20:12.000 --> 0:20:15.359 me as someone who believed he was innocent. But I 0:20:15.400 --> 0:20:17.320 was scared of what he was capable of. I was 0:20:17.359 --> 0:20:21.159 definitely scared to say you're lying. I would never have 0:20:21.240 --> 0:20:24.479 said that because that would have put me in danger. 0:20:24.920 --> 0:20:26.760 It must have taken a lot of guts for you 0:20:26.920 --> 0:20:30.560 to accuse your father of Rochelle's murder. 0:20:31.280 --> 0:20:34.000 Through I mean, there's probably been four or five big 0:20:34.000 --> 0:20:36.800 blow ups between me and my dad where we get 0:20:36.800 --> 0:20:41.639 to that level of cruelty. First time was when I 0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:44.520 was twelve, and then that second time after Rochelle died, 0:20:47.240 --> 0:20:53.480 and it's yeah, built up. It's all the times where 0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:57.000 I played along and got resentful of let it go, 0:20:57.119 --> 0:21:00.679 that he was flood out lying, and it builds up 0:21:00.720 --> 0:21:03.479 and builds up to a point where I just snap. 0:21:04.080 --> 0:21:07.399 We never discuss it when we come back together, and 0:21:07.480 --> 0:21:11.000 there's been brief mentions, and my dad would never take 0:21:11.000 --> 0:21:13.520 accountability for any of it. He'd talked about how much 0:21:13.560 --> 0:21:14.160 I hurt him. 0:21:14.480 --> 0:21:18.400 How soon after Rochelle's murder did your father tell you 0:21:18.680 --> 0:21:20.920 that Rochelle's fingers had been cut off? 0:21:21.400 --> 0:21:25.320 I don't remember the specific conversation. I just I remember 0:21:25.359 --> 0:21:28.560 telling people, you know, because that's what my dad had 0:21:28.600 --> 0:21:34.560 told me, the bikers had done it. And I remember 0:21:34.680 --> 0:21:36.800 just feeling like the blood had drained from my face 0:21:36.880 --> 0:21:38.480 the time he sat on my lounge and said, I've 0:21:38.520 --> 0:21:42.639 never said that. He said it to me multiple times. 0:21:43.760 --> 0:21:48.200 I don't remember him talking about Rochelle's death in any 0:21:48.280 --> 0:21:53.240 other sense than him defending himself. There was no conversations 0:21:53.240 --> 0:22:00.520 about missing Rochelle or how wonderful she was, or there 0:22:00.600 --> 0:22:06.440 was never anything other thankers did it. She was dealing 0:22:06.520 --> 0:22:09.640 drugs and it was that he wasn't involved. 0:22:09.880 --> 0:22:12.399 What did he say when you said, I believe you 0:22:12.440 --> 0:22:12.800 did it? 0:22:13.280 --> 0:22:14.600 My dad will. 0:22:15.720 --> 0:22:20.560 Match my cruelty. When I'm a pretty passive person, as 0:22:20.560 --> 0:22:24.920 I said, I'm very compliant with my dad's lies and 0:22:24.960 --> 0:22:27.800 things like that, and then I let it all build 0:22:27.920 --> 0:22:30.239 up until I erupt and I get very cruel and 0:22:30.280 --> 0:22:32.160 I have said some really cruel things to my dad. 0:22:33.320 --> 0:22:36.800 My dad matches that, and he says crueler things back. 0:22:39.600 --> 0:22:41.639 And I mean, there's been times throughout my life that 0:22:41.640 --> 0:22:44.040 I've had doubts and thought, what if he didn't do it? 0:22:44.760 --> 0:22:49.880 And I've said the most horrific thing. It'd be heartbreaking 0:22:49.960 --> 0:22:51.960 to have your child throw that in your face. 0:22:54.320 --> 0:22:56.399 But I do believe he did it. I think he 0:22:56.480 --> 0:22:57.200 knows he did it. 0:22:58.160 --> 0:23:01.960 Did he ever have any compassion or grief about what 0:23:02.119 --> 0:23:03.280 happened to Rochelle? 0:23:03.480 --> 0:23:04.520 Not that I ever saw. 0:23:05.359 --> 0:23:08.800 I don't think I've ever seen compassion in my father, 0:23:09.840 --> 0:23:15.480 except when my daughter died. I know that broke him. 0:23:16.400 --> 0:23:18.320 I think I was the single most painful thing of 0:23:18.320 --> 0:23:20.000 his life. 0:23:20.359 --> 0:23:21.520 Cruelty was always. 0:23:21.280 --> 0:23:27.600 In a very, very different way than most people experience cruelty. 0:23:28.480 --> 0:23:31.520 He managed to get people in on it with him always, 0:23:31.880 --> 0:23:34.159 and I think that's so unique and it adds an 0:23:34.320 --> 0:23:39.480 extra layer of evilness. I think he fully thought that 0:23:39.600 --> 0:23:45.639 his charm would make people not suspect him, and he 0:23:45.680 --> 0:23:49.280 could point it towards bikers because in his eyes, he 0:23:49.320 --> 0:23:53.160 would have lost any adoration he had for Rochelle because 0:23:53.160 --> 0:23:55.920 she was hanging out with bikers. He has a very 0:23:56.000 --> 0:24:00.959 skewed view on how women are supposed to act. He 0:24:01.000 --> 0:24:04.919 would have minimized Rochelle's worth in hearing that she was 0:24:04.920 --> 0:24:08.480 hanging out with bikers. I know that he would have 0:24:08.480 --> 0:24:15.480 had an infatuation with her, and it would have seriously 0:24:15.560 --> 0:24:20.240 angered him that she was involved with people like that, 0:24:20.800 --> 0:24:23.399 because he expects to be revered. He expects to be 0:24:23.440 --> 0:24:24.840 the center of everyone's attention. 0:24:25.400 --> 0:24:29.280 Do you believe that your father cut off Rochelle's fingers. 0:24:29.800 --> 0:24:30.240 Yes, I do. 0:24:31.200 --> 0:24:35.439 I think that was his attempt for getting away with it. 0:24:35.840 --> 0:24:43.280 As I've said, he's very calculated. He thinks he's forensically 0:24:43.960 --> 0:24:51.919 super intelligent. And I think he intentionally cut off her 0:24:51.920 --> 0:24:57.679 fingers and make up the rumor that Rochelle was stealing 0:24:57.720 --> 0:25:02.160 drugs for bikers, because that's something he could completely dismiss 0:25:02.160 --> 0:25:06.879 her character. He would you minimize her character, whether Rochelle 0:25:06.960 --> 0:25:08.480 was doing that or not. And I don't believe for 0:25:08.520 --> 0:25:11.560 a second she was. That's not something I would say, well, 0:25:11.600 --> 0:25:14.840 you deserve to be killed for. In my dad's head, 0:25:15.200 --> 0:25:17.240 she would become nothing and no one if she's really 0:25:17.359 --> 0:25:21.639 if she's dealing with bikers, if she's dealing drugs, he 0:25:21.720 --> 0:25:25.399 would be able to minimize in his head who she 0:25:25.520 --> 0:25:30.399 was as a human being. And although I can't visualize 0:25:30.440 --> 0:25:33.600 in my head that my dad would be able to 0:25:33.640 --> 0:25:36.840 burn a body, cut fingers off, who is the most 0:25:36.880 --> 0:25:43.640 horrific thing thinking about him visually doing those things, I 0:25:43.720 --> 0:25:49.480 know how he can completely destroy any idea of someone's 0:25:49.560 --> 0:25:55.160 humanness when they have disappointed him. 0:25:56.560 --> 0:25:59.480 Is that because you believe you've felt that, and you've 0:25:59.520 --> 0:26:01.800