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Speaker 1: Why do you believe that Kevan's responsible for Rochelle's murder.

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Speaker 2: My Dad's never raised his voice, raised a hand to me.

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Speaker 2: I was never smacked. As a child, I experienced nothing but.

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Speaker 3: Displays of love.

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Speaker 2: But I know when I disappointed my dad and I

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Speaker 2: saw evil sides of him. I saw how calculated and

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Speaker 2: sinister he could be. I see the way he treated women.

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Speaker 2: I knew he was capable of horrible things.

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Speaker 3: I knew that.

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Speaker 2: Crossing him could be dangerous for people. But I know

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Speaker 2: how quickly he can turn on his most significant relationships,

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Speaker 2: how you can go from being the center of his

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Speaker 2: universe to nothing and no one easily. But I think

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Speaker 2: my initial instinct when hearing that Rochelle had been murdered

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Speaker 2: was that it was my father.

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Speaker 1: I'm Ashley Hanson and you're listening to episode fourteen of

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Speaker 1: Dear Rochelle, a podcast by True Crime Australia. This is

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Speaker 1: the untold story of Rochelle Charles, a twenty three year

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Speaker 1: old who was brutally murdered. Her killer has never been caught.

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Speaker 1: This is the second of a two part interview with

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Speaker 1: Kevin Stephen Corell's daughter Jazz. As you heard last episode,

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Speaker 1: Jazz has some pretty strong beliefs about her father, particularly

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Speaker 1: in relation to historic allegations for which she was found

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Speaker 1: not guilty. Jazz also believes her dad murdered Rochelle. These

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Speaker 1: are only Jazz's opinions about her dad. She's come to

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Speaker 1: these views for a combination of her own interactions with

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Speaker 1: her father and witnessing his relationships with other people, including

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Speaker 1: both of his ex wives, the first being her mother. This,

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Speaker 1: of course, doesn't make it proof of Kevin's guilt of

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Speaker 1: any offenses. These are only Jazz's opinions, and in fact,

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Speaker 1: you will hear Jazz say she doesn't have any evidence

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Speaker 1: that her dad committed these crimes, but we think it's

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Speaker 1: important for you to hear her voice. Kevin Carrell strenuously

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Speaker 1: denies any involvement in Rochelle's murder and has never been charged.

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Speaker 1: He has willingly participated in three records of interview with

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Speaker 1: police and provided his DNA to investigators. A coroner presiding

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Speaker 1: over Rochelle's inquest made an open finding, did you ever

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Speaker 1: meet Rochelle?

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Speaker 3: Yes?

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Speaker 2: So did at Campton Holden, being that I think I

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Speaker 2: met her when I was about sixteen. I was seventeen

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Speaker 2: when she passed, so my brother had not long had

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Speaker 2: his license and he often borrowed cars from Campton Holden

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Speaker 2: and so you know, if he was heading out there

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Speaker 2: to visit out dad, I'd often go.

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Speaker 3: And I met Rochelle a few times.

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Speaker 2: And at that age, you know, a young woman that age,

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Speaker 2: it's automatically someone you look up to, and you know

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Speaker 2: she's very bubbly and friendly and yeah, just lovely, very

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Speaker 2: very sweet.

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Speaker 4: Do you remember being told that she died.

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Speaker 2: I don't remember the specifics on how I found that out.

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Speaker 2: I don't remember a conversation with my dad about it.

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Speaker 2: My feeling is possibly that my brother told me, but

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Speaker 2: I can't confirm that my brother at that time had

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Speaker 2: a closer relationship with my dad. At sixteen seventeen, I

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Speaker 2: you know, didn't really have a lot to do with him.

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Speaker 2: The time she passed away and the time I fell

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Speaker 2: pregnant with my eldest son, I had cut my dud

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Speaker 2: from my life and told him I believed he did it.

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Speaker 2: So this was before the inquest, but I had stated

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Speaker 2: that I believed he was responsible, and it wasn't until

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Speaker 2: later in my pregnancy that I reconnected with him, and

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Speaker 2: I think I apologize for saying that. I put it

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Speaker 2: down to being angry at him, as.

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Speaker 3: I said, you know, being seventeen.

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Speaker 2: I don't remember the order in which I found things out,

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Speaker 2: but I think there was possibly a conversation about, you know,

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Speaker 2: the defrauding of Campton Holden. And I was well aware

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Speaker 2: that if Rochelle had become aware that he was doing that,

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Speaker 2: and you know, if someone told me my dad stole something,

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Speaker 2: I would immediately believe that my dad is a thief.

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Speaker 2: You know, most of time he passes it off as

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Speaker 2: a joke. We couldn't go anywhere without him pocketing something

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Speaker 2: or you know, and it was always a joke to him.

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Speaker 2: I think he really got off on I'm doing things

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Speaker 2: like that, insignificant things. I remember one time from a

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Speaker 2: shopping center, he's stall bins so he could have them

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Speaker 2: at the back. They were nice, decretive bins. He'd brag

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Speaker 2: about it.

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Speaker 1: When did you start to think that the fraud allegations

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Speaker 1: against your father could have been his motive?

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Speaker 2: I think it was. He did definitely didn't tell me,

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Speaker 2: because I remember I remember bringing it up to him

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Speaker 2: about Camden Holden. I think I'd read it in a

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Speaker 2: paper and.

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Speaker 3: I asked him.

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Speaker 2: I said, well, you know, let's this about you defrodi

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Speaker 2: and he said, oh, they I remember something about seven

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Speaker 2: thousand dollars and he said, like, I'm going to kill

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Speaker 2: a young girl over seven thousand dollars, and he denied

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Speaker 2: that he had defrauded.

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Speaker 5: Hold it.

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Speaker 2: It's possibly that my brain's been attached to that for

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Speaker 2: twenty four years, that the sexual element of it was

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Speaker 2: something I had not considered, which is probably ridiculous to

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Speaker 2: most considering his history. I didn't view it that way though,

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Speaker 2: So Yeah, to me, it was about her exposing who

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Speaker 2: he was. I think she possibly started questioning things because

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Speaker 2: of her commissions. She made him paranoid. Probably didn't know

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Speaker 2: how to get out of it. He felt like he

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Speaker 2: was being exposed. Exposing my dad in any way, exposing

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Speaker 2: or shining a light on him not being wonderful is

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Speaker 2: what will set him off. I don't think he can

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Speaker 2: bring anybody in. I don't think it would have occurred

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Speaker 2: to him to say that to Rachelle, I'll give you

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Speaker 2: some extra money if she found out about the fraud.

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Speaker 2: I think a lot of the time when my dad's

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Speaker 2: been in a situation where he's being exposed he just

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Speaker 2: moves on to the next part of his life. I

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Speaker 2: don't know what it was about Rochelle. I think maybe

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Speaker 2: being in a car yard too, like that. My dad

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Speaker 2: worked in car yards my whole life.

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Speaker 3: That being.

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Speaker 2: Becoming well known it would have angered him. I remember

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Speaker 2: there was one podcast where one of my dad's former

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Speaker 2: partners said that my dad spoke about Rochelle's performance dropping

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Speaker 2: in the months before she died.

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Speaker 3: For him to speak.

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Speaker 2: About someone like that, my dad wouldn't care if someone

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Speaker 2: wasn't working hard.

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Speaker 3: It's not something that would affect him. He wasn't a

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Speaker 3: hard worker, you know, he never has been.

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Speaker 2: He's use of her had shifted, and he was probably

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Speaker 2: trying to make Rachelle look a certain way so that

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Speaker 2: if she did expose him, or it could be that

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Speaker 2: she had laughed at him, changed his view entirely. But

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Speaker 2: also he would have been trying to change people's perceptions

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Speaker 2: of Rochelle to make her look like a liar if

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Speaker 2: she came out and exposed him.

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Speaker 4: What about if she rejected him.

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Speaker 2: Probably the most dangerous thing that she could have done.

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Speaker 2: I don't think my dad gets rejected very often. I think,

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Speaker 2: you know, in most social settings where you know, maybe

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Speaker 2: he'd make an advance. You know, he'd probably never see

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Speaker 2: that woman again if she, you know, was that mingles

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Speaker 2: or and that's fine, and he'd probably accept that and

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Speaker 2: minimize how much he wanted her. But Rochelle being in

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Speaker 2: his life every day, and how much he would have

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Speaker 2: been infatuated with her, her rejecting him would have been

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Speaker 2: a massive hit to his ego. But if Rochelle had

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Speaker 2: rejected him or mocked him, or if it was known

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Speaker 2: that she had rejected him, that would have infuriated him.

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Speaker 2: Because the biggest thing for my daddy is the show,

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Speaker 2: the ego, the being revered by people. He needs to

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Speaker 2: be sent a stage. He needs to be the most

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Speaker 2: important person. It would have embarrassed him, and that's probably

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Speaker 2: the most dangerous thing you can do to my daddy

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Speaker 2: is embarrass him.

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Speaker 4: You've had a lot of years to consider your father's behavior,

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Speaker 4: what you know of him, and also now insights into

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Speaker 4: Rochelle's case. What do you you believe happened to Rochelle

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Speaker 4: that night?

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Speaker 2: I believe that he lured her with the Walker shore.

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Speaker 2: He convinced her they were going to pick it up.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how he convinced her to drive her car.

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Speaker 2: I think he met her at Bargo. That's the only

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Speaker 2: part that's missing for me. Why they went in her car.

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Speaker 2: My dad's known to always be the driver. I've never

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Speaker 2: driven with my dad in the car. Don't know how

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Speaker 2: that happened. I think he then they went to Giroua.

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Speaker 2: I think he wanted to kill her, possibly as punishment

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Speaker 2: for rejecting him, but I think it was about the

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Speaker 2: exposure of him defrauding Camden Holden. I think he pulled

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Speaker 2: up at that exact spot for the cement kid and

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Speaker 2: when couldn't get that open. You know, he's left her

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Speaker 2: where he has, but I think maybe there was a

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Speaker 2: car near Bargo Poppy he's driven back there. I believe

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Speaker 2: the reason her radio was stolen is my dad's terrified

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Speaker 2: of technology. He doesn't understand it. When my dad doesn't

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Speaker 2: understand things, he's angry about them, and it's something we've

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Speaker 2: sort of been able to mock him about technology, which

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Speaker 2: insults him. It affects his ego. I think around that

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Speaker 2: time would have been when you'd first sort of see

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Speaker 2: on crime shows that radios had GPS features, and because

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Speaker 2: my dad didn't understand I think it was important to

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Speaker 2: him that he take that out.

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Speaker 3: First thing.

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Speaker 2: When I heard about the radio, which was only in

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Speaker 2: the last few weeks, my first thought was he took

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Speaker 2: it out because technology. There was also comments about, you know,

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Speaker 2: the three different places he had to shoe, handbags, and

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Speaker 2: the sheet. I think he would have been insulted with

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Speaker 2: the way that was presented as him being fearful and

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Speaker 2: anxious and disorganized. I think he did that intentionally and

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Speaker 2: he thought it was forensically intelligent. He wouldn't like how

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Speaker 2: it was interpreted as he didn't do a good job,

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Speaker 2: and he'd probably be smugging the fact that, well, if

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Speaker 2: it was so bad, well I got away with that.

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Speaker 2: I dud thinks he knows the legal system, and he doesn't.

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Speaker 2: A few times I've had to explain things, and you know,

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Speaker 2: he doesn't like that at all. He's never had any

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Speaker 2: regard whatsoever for my intelligence, and despite my degree, I

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Speaker 2: could fill him in and he'd just get frustrated. He

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Speaker 2: thinks he knows everything about it because of watching I

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Speaker 2: See You It's those shows. But I think he thinks

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Speaker 2: of himself as someone who, rather than luck, it's because

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Speaker 2: of his skill.

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Speaker 3: He's got away with things. I think that's how he

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Speaker 3: views it.

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Speaker 1: Your father must be afforded the presumption of innocence. But

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Speaker 1: why do you believe he's gotten away with Rochelle's murder.

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Speaker 3: I honestly couldn't tell you.

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Speaker 2: I think my dad's probably the luckiest man I've ever known,

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Speaker 2: and I've always seen luck on his side.

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Speaker 3: I remember my mom.

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Speaker 2: My mom was definitely never someone who, you know, even

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Speaker 2: though she had valid reason to say a lot of

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Speaker 2: things about my father, she wasn't one of those mothers

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Speaker 2: whoever bad mouthed us. She'd stopped my grandparents from ever

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Speaker 2: saying anything bad as well. But she used to always say,

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Speaker 2: your father will always lean on his feet. I heard

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Speaker 2: that a billion times through my life, and he does.

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Speaker 2: If we did a ruffle somewhere, my dad would win.

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Speaker 2: My dad always got the best parking spot. I've seen

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Speaker 2: him just have this extraordinary luck, didn't have a once

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Speaker 2: or twice repeatedly all the time. I've never known anyone

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Speaker 2: with his luck, and I'm sort of the opposite. I

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Speaker 2: have the opposite luck. I get every light. My dad

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Speaker 2: never gets them. I think his luck is just it's

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Speaker 2: something else, and I don't know where it comes from

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Speaker 2: I think. You know, when you look at his cases

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Speaker 2: from the eighties, you can point to the times you

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Speaker 2: know victims weren't believed. My dad is very charismatic, very charming,

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Speaker 2: and he can convince people of many different things. He

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Speaker 2: just packs up and then he lands on his feet

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Speaker 2: again every time. And I think because he's got away

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Speaker 2: with so many things, he does feel untouchable and invincible.

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Speaker 2: I've never seen my dad anxious or scared of anything.

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Speaker 3: He has a very very low.

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Speaker 2: Range of emotions. There's anger, which he suppresses, but I

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Speaker 2: can see it in his eyes. I know when my

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Speaker 2: dad's angry, but he doesn't show it. And there's happy

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Speaker 2: fun that version of my dad, and that's most of

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Speaker 2: the time. Yeah, but there's not a wide range, and

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Speaker 2: he just he's used that to win people over and

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Speaker 2: have people defend him. There were quite a few years

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Speaker 2: that I know I protected him where people would have

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Speaker 2: their doubts and I would convince them that, you know,

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't have someone like that in my life. I

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Speaker 2: always feel guilt and shame about that, because deep down

242
00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:04,040
Speaker 2: I knew, but I needed other people to not believe that.

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Speaker 2: My dad was a big support of mine. That sounds disgraceful.

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Speaker 3: I know that.

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Speaker 2: You know I was willing to let something like murder

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Speaker 2: slide for the support he offered, But there was a

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Speaker 2: lot of trauma in my life. I was not well,

248
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Speaker 2: and I didn't know how to deal with all of this.

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Speaker 4: Do you remember realizing he was being investigated over Rochelle's matter.

250
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Speaker 2: I remember my mum's parents had told me they rang

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Speaker 2: the police to tell them about my dad's real name,

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Speaker 2: with his former history, and I remember the police coming

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Speaker 2: out to interview me. I don't remember a lot of questions.

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Speaker 2: I just remember them asking about a sheet more than anything.

255
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Speaker 2: I can't remember exactly what I said to them at

256
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Speaker 2: the time, but they were asking me if I had

257
00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:03,760
Speaker 2: been to his place at Lake Laura, and yeah, I'd

258
00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:07,440
Speaker 2: bet there maybe once or twice. So I couldn't give

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Speaker 2: them a lot of information, but.

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Speaker 3: I just knew.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, I always had that feeling, but I

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00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:22,840
Speaker 2: think the minute I knew was when the inquest was

263
00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:29,679
Speaker 2: happening and it was printed about Rochelle's fingers, and my

264
00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:31,480
Speaker 2: dad was coming over daily at that time, and he

265
00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:35,520
Speaker 2: was falling apart about what they were printing about him,

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Speaker 2: and at that time. It was horrible. You know, I

267
00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:45,560
Speaker 2: lost a lot of friends through that time with no

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Speaker 2: notice or anything. But I remember him coming over and

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Speaker 2: I had read about Rochelle being a and Dad walked

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Speaker 2: into my house and he said, they're saying I've made

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Speaker 2: up this comment about the fingers. I've never said that,

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Speaker 2: But I knew at that moment that he'd done it

273
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Speaker 2: because he told me the story multiple times. He had

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Speaker 2: said that Rachelle's fingers were cut off because she was

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Speaker 2: dealing drugs for bikers, and that's a biker punishment. He

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00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:16,960
Speaker 2: had a fascination with bikers.

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Speaker 3: But the second he.

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Speaker 2: Told me that that was a lie and he never

279
00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:27,480
Speaker 2: said those things, that's when I realized he's done this.

280
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Speaker 2: That was the moment. And I remember.

281
00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:36,840
Speaker 3: Talking to my oldest son when there was a lot

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Speaker 3: of stuff in.

283
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Speaker 2: The media, and I mean, my baby boy was maybe twelve,

284
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Speaker 2: and he wanted to know about the case. He knew

285
00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:52,160
Speaker 2: that his grandfather had been in the media and stuff.

286
00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:54,399
Speaker 2: It was way too young to have those conversations, but

287
00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:56,040
Speaker 2: I was worried about what would be said in the

288
00:18:56,040 --> 00:19:00,000
Speaker 2: school yard, and you know, his friend's parents having conversations

289
00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:01,160
Speaker 2: with friends and stuff.

290
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Speaker 3: So I had to tell me about the case, and.

291
00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:06,080
Speaker 2: I still urged it to my lips the minute I

292
00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:11,040
Speaker 2: told him about the fingers and the pain in my

293
00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:16,200
Speaker 2: son's face realizing who his grandfather was. I've never ever

294
00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:19,080
Speaker 2: forgotten that conversation. I don't remember how we sat down

295
00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:21,000
Speaker 2: and talked. I know I would have been gentle, and

296
00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:25,560
Speaker 2: but the second I said about the fingers his face.

297
00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:26,680
Speaker 3: Never forget it.

298
00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:30,840
Speaker 1: And for you, it was this conversation sitting on the

299
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Speaker 1: couch when he said I never said that.

300
00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:36,760
Speaker 4: I never said that. What was that like for you?

301
00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:39,119
Speaker 4: In that moment? Take me into that room.

302
00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:44,760
Speaker 2: I just wanted to pass out. I just I still

303
00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:47,440
Speaker 2: remember just feeling electrified.

304
00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:52,879
Speaker 4: Were you fearful?

305
00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:53,920
Speaker 3: At that time?

306
00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:57,040
Speaker 2: I didn't think my dad would hurt me. There have

307
00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:59,680
Speaker 2: been many periods through my life there I did believe

308
00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:01,400
Speaker 2: my dad would hurt me if he could get away

309
00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:06,320
Speaker 2: with it. But at that time, I think he was

310
00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:11,960
Speaker 2: very dependent on people thinking he's innocent, and he viewed

311
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:15,359
Speaker 2: me as someone who believed he was innocent. But I

312
00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:17,320
Speaker 2: was scared of what he was capable of. I was

313
00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:21,159
Speaker 2: definitely scared to say you're lying. I would never have

314
00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,479
Speaker 2: said that because that would have put me in danger.

315
00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:26,760
Speaker 4: It must have taken a lot of guts for you

316
00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:30,560
Speaker 4: to accuse your father of Rochelle's murder.

317
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Speaker 2: Through I mean, there's probably been four or five big

318
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:36,800
Speaker 2: blow ups between me and my dad where we get

319
00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:41,639
Speaker 2: to that level of cruelty. First time was when I

320
00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:44,520
Speaker 2: was twelve, and then that second time after Rochelle died,

321
00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:53,480
Speaker 2: and it's yeah, built up. It's all the times where

322
00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:57,000
Speaker 2: I played along and got resentful of let it go,

323
00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:00,679
Speaker 2: that he was flood out lying, and it builds up

324
00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:03,479
Speaker 2: and builds up to a point where I just snap.

325
00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:07,399
Speaker 2: We never discuss it when we come back together, and

326
00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:11,000
Speaker 2: there's been brief mentions, and my dad would never take

327
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:13,520
Speaker 2: accountability for any of it. He'd talked about how much

328
00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:14,160
Speaker 2: I hurt him.

329
00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:18,400
Speaker 4: How soon after Rochelle's murder did your father tell you

330
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:20,920
Speaker 4: that Rochelle's fingers had been cut off?

331
00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:25,320
Speaker 2: I don't remember the specific conversation. I just I remember

332
00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:28,560
Speaker 2: telling people, you know, because that's what my dad had

333
00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:34,560
Speaker 2: told me, the bikers had done it. And I remember

334
00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:36,800
Speaker 2: just feeling like the blood had drained from my face

335
00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:38,480
Speaker 2: the time he sat on my lounge and said, I've

336
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:42,639
Speaker 2: never said that. He said it to me multiple times.

337
00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:48,200
Speaker 2: I don't remember him talking about Rochelle's death in any

338
00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:53,240
Speaker 2: other sense than him defending himself. There was no conversations

339
00:21:53,240 --> 00:22:00,520
Speaker 2: about missing Rochelle or how wonderful she was, or there

340
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:06,440
Speaker 2: was never anything other thankers did it. She was dealing

341
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:09,640
Speaker 2: drugs and it was that he wasn't involved.

342
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,399
Speaker 4: What did he say when you said, I believe you

343
00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:12,800
Speaker 4: did it?

344
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:14,600
Speaker 3: My dad will.

345
00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:20,560
Speaker 2: Match my cruelty. When I'm a pretty passive person, as

346
00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:24,920
Speaker 2: I said, I'm very compliant with my dad's lies and

347
00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:27,800
Speaker 2: things like that, and then I let it all build

348
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:30,239
Speaker 2: up until I erupt and I get very cruel and

349
00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:32,160
Speaker 2: I have said some really cruel things to my dad.

350
00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:36,800
Speaker 2: My dad matches that, and he says crueler things back.

351
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:41,639
Speaker 2: And I mean, there's been times throughout my life that

352
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,040
Speaker 2: I've had doubts and thought, what if he didn't do it?

353
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:49,880
Speaker 2: And I've said the most horrific thing. It'd be heartbreaking

354
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:51,960
Speaker 2: to have your child throw that in your face.

355
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:56,399
Speaker 3: But I do believe he did it. I think he

356
00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:57,200
Speaker 3: knows he did it.

357
00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,960
Speaker 4: Did he ever have any compassion or grief about what

358
00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:03,280
Speaker 4: happened to Rochelle?

359
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:04,520
Speaker 3: Not that I ever saw.

360
00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:08,800
Speaker 2: I don't think I've ever seen compassion in my father,

361
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:15,480
Speaker 2: except when my daughter died. I know that broke him.

362
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:18,320
Speaker 2: I think I was the single most painful thing of

363
00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 2: his life.

364
00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:21,520
Speaker 3: Cruelty was always.

365
00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:27,600
Speaker 2: In a very, very different way than most people experience cruelty.

366
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 2: He managed to get people in on it with him always,

367
00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:34,159
Speaker 2: and I think that's so unique and it adds an

368
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:39,480
Speaker 2: extra layer of evilness. I think he fully thought that

369
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:45,639
Speaker 2: his charm would make people not suspect him, and he

370
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:49,280
Speaker 2: could point it towards bikers because in his eyes, he

371
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:53,160
Speaker 2: would have lost any adoration he had for Rochelle because

372
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:55,920
Speaker 2: she was hanging out with bikers. He has a very

373
00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:00,959
Speaker 2: skewed view on how women are supposed to act. He

374
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:04,919
Speaker 2: would have minimized Rochelle's worth in hearing that she was

375
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:08,480
Speaker 2: hanging out with bikers. I know that he would have

376
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:15,480
Speaker 2: had an infatuation with her, and it would have seriously

377
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:20,240
Speaker 2: angered him that she was involved with people like that,

378
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,399
Speaker 2: because he expects to be revered. He expects to be

379
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 2: the center of everyone's attention.

380
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:29,280
Speaker 4: Do you believe that your father cut off Rochelle's fingers.

381
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:30,240
Speaker 3: Yes, I do.

382
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:35,439
Speaker 2: I think that was his attempt for getting away with it.

383
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 2: As I've said, he's very calculated. He thinks he's forensically

384
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:51,919
Speaker 2: super intelligent. And I think he intentionally cut off her

385
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:57,679
Speaker 2: fingers and make up the rumor that Rochelle was stealing

386
00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:02,160
Speaker 2: drugs for bikers, because that's something he could completely dismiss

387
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:06,879
Speaker 2: her character. He would you minimize her character, whether Rochelle

388
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:08,480
Speaker 2: was doing that or not. And I don't believe for

389
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 2: a second she was. That's not something I would say, well,

390
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 2: you deserve to be killed for. In my dad's head,

391
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 2: she would become nothing and no one if she's really

392
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:21,639
Speaker 2: if she's dealing with bikers, if she's dealing drugs, he

393
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:25,399
Speaker 2: would be able to minimize in his head who she

394
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:30,399
Speaker 2: was as a human being. And although I can't visualize

395
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 2: in my head that my dad would be able to

396
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 2: burn a body, cut fingers off, who is the most

397
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:43,640
Speaker 2: horrific thing thinking about him visually doing those things, I

398
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 2: know how he can completely destroy any idea of someone's

399
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:55,160
Speaker 2: humanness when they have disappointed him.

400
00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,480
Speaker 1: Is that because you believe you've felt that, and you've

401
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 1: experienced feeling of nothing.

402
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 2: He would act like I hung the moon and I

403
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:09,320
Speaker 2: was everything, and then I was nothing and I was

404
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 2: so insignificant, And he never cared, and he didn't care

405
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:15,119
Speaker 2: what happened to.

406
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 1: Me, what would be happening to him inside In those

407
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 1: moments when he has rage for someone, you'd.

408
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 2: See flickers in his face, especially his eyes. A lot

409
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 2: of his victims have talked about his eyes. They're definitely

410
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:32,399
Speaker 2: really significant. I could see it, but I don't think

411
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 2: anyone who didn't know you well would be able to

412
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:39,160
Speaker 2: see it. My dad's not reactive at all. He's not anxious,

413
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 2: he's not full of well, he's probably is full of rage,

414
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 2: but not in the sense that most people would have.

415
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 3: Very calculated.

416
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:50,439
Speaker 2: He is very He can mask so much of what

417
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:52,959
Speaker 2: he's feeling and put a smile on his face and

418
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,919
Speaker 2: stew on it and come up with the plan and

419
00:26:56,040 --> 00:27:00,280
Speaker 2: execute his revenge or his plan later on without any one.

420
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,160
Speaker 2: You know, it's very hard to say how you get

421
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 2: victimized by my father because there's a lot of gas

422
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 2: lighting there, and most people be like, what are you

423
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 2: talking about? You so crazy? You're paranoid? You know, he's wonderful,

424
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:18,879
Speaker 2: and how does X, Y and Z equal this? But

425
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 2: it is, you know, the people I'd see him like,

426
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 2: when my dad didn't like someone, he would make jokes

427
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 2: at their expense that everyone would laugh at, including myself,

428
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 2: And I feel very guilty about that now. But to

429
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:39,680
Speaker 2: most people go, it's banter, it's harmless, but.

430
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 3: It was cruel.

431
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 2: It was always a cruelty, and he got off on

432
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,359
Speaker 2: making people laugh at people.

433
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:52,680
Speaker 1: He didn't like, what would you say to people or

434
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 1: even if your father said, you just she's lying.

435
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 4: She has a grudge against me.

436
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:02,119
Speaker 2: I think he said that to multiple people over the years.

437
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 2: He has told I know he's spoken to one of

438
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 2: my sons, who only very recently told me that this

439
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:15,640
Speaker 2: conversation had happened. But yeah, apparently my dad had said

440
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:17,439
Speaker 2: to him, you know, I know your mom thinks I

441
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 2: killed Rochelle, and they had a conversation about it, and

442
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:24,200
Speaker 2: you know, he said that you know it was bikers

443
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:29,920
Speaker 2: that were responsible. And he said, you your mum believes

444
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 2: this because of a rape case back in the eighties.

445
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:36,360
Speaker 2: And then he told the police officer's daughter story. Which

446
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 2: are the conversations that I hadn't had with my son.

447
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 2: So when he reported them all back to me only recently,

448
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 2: this was he would have been about thirteen or fourteen

449
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 2: at the time of this conversation. So yeah, he'd got

450
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 2: into his head about it and tried to plant seeds

451
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 2: of doubt there.

452
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 1: Why is that you carry that shame and guilt about

453
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 1: loving your father?

454
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 5: I think.

455
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 3: The way my dad is with me.

456
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,959
Speaker 2: Made people believe that he's not capable of bad things.

457
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 2: You know, I know with myself, when you meet a

458
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 2: man who's a wonderful father, you believe in his inherit goodness.

459
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 3: And I do believe to a degree.

460
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 2: I was a tool he used to convince people of that,

461
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 2: and I played along. If there was an audience, my

462
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 2: dad would really amp it up. He was very much

463
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 2: the showman. If we're at a party, he would spin

464
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 2: me around and dance with me and Britain. I was

465
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 2: the center of everything, and I saw women fall over

466
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 2: themselves with that act. He never told me how to

467
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 2: do it, but eat into it because his love.

468
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 3: Felt special.

469
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 2: But when it wasn't an audience witnessing that that didn't exist.

470
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 2: I realized very early that I was at all. It

471
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 2: was something he used to convince people of his goodness,

472
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:26,600
Speaker 2: but I didn't.

473
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 3: Want it to stop.

474
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, there was.

475
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 2: Very different versions of him. If he'd gone to jail,

476
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 2: maybe I would never know him. Maybe he'd just be

477
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 2: a story to me. Maybe I wouldn't have developed any

478
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 2: love for him. It's a sacrifice I would have made, though,

479
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 2: to not have my father in my life. If he

480
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 2: had gone to jail back in those times and it

481
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:56,720
Speaker 2: was potential for him to change, he could not do

482
00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 2: what he'd done.

483
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 4: Do you hope for a day that this will stop

484
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 4: following you?

485
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 3: Yeah?

486
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean he feels selfish to ever put any

487
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 2: focus on that. I want this to stop following us,

488
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 2: not at the expense of Christian and receiving justice. I

489
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 2: will enjoy this for the rest of my life if

490
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 2: it means they get justice and they get the answers

491
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 2: that they deserve. I don't want him found guilty and

492
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 2: put in jail. I want him to admit what he did.

493
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 2: I mean, I'll take it anyway it happens, but I

494
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 2: think they deserve that from him. I don't know if

495
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 2: it's ever going to happen. I've told him when I'm

496
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 2: in my cruel state of mind that he helps me

497
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 2: get to that. You know, a lot of the time,

498
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 2: I think I wanted him in my life because I

499
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 2: wanted a deathbed confession from him.

500
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 3: One day.

501
00:31:56,240 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 2: I wanted something I could take to them. I remember,

502
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:03,800
Speaker 2: you know, multiple times he's been unwell, and you know,

503
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 2: I don't know how true it is and stuff, but

504
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 2: I wonder if you'll say anything. I don't think he will.

505
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 2: I think he's too selfish for that. But I know

506
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 2: that the day i find out my father has passed,

507
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 2: the first thing I'm going to do before I shared

508
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 2: a single tear with better tell Christian and anyone else

509
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 2: that I know that's been victimized by him and give

510
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 2: them peace they deserve.

511
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 4: What do you want Christian and to know?

512
00:32:55,840 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 5: But I'm sorry, and I'm.

513
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 3: Sorry that.

514
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 2: I participated in twenty four years of him having quid

515
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 2: fit and happy days.

516
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 3: Jas.

517
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 1: You were a child when this happened and has nothing

518
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 1: to do with you. This is heartbreaking to listen to

519
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 1: you talk like this, that you hold so much guilt

520
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:38,400
Speaker 1: either somebody else's actions.

521
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 2: I don't know what experience. I don't I can't even

522
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 2: comprehend it. But I've lost a child.

523
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 3: And it's.

524
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 2: It's the most excruciating pain in the world that it

525
00:33:55,320 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 2: never leaves. But to add on to that, someone who

526
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 2: has walk three for twenty four years having good memories,

527
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 2: and I've participated in that I've told my dad I

528
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:18,840
Speaker 2: don't believe in karma, but I remember feeling like I

529
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,840
Speaker 2: lost my daughter as karma for sending by him.

530
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:22,319
Speaker 5: I did.

531
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 2: Who felt like the fact that I had a knowledge

532
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:32,959
Speaker 2: deep inside me that he did this and I still

533
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 2: only met my life. I don't even believe in the

534
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,360
Speaker 2: concept of it, but I feel like I need to

535
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 2: be punished for that. I feel like.

536
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 3: I was complicit in and what he's done and the

537
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 3: people he's hurt.

538
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 2: I wish he'd been got twenty four years ago and

539
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:00,080
Speaker 2: here was nothing but a story my children knew today.

540
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 3: It's I don't want the attention of this.

541
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 2: I don't want to be going through any of this,

542
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:16,480
Speaker 2: but it needs to happen, and if justice is never served,

543
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 2: I think it's important that his face is known, his name,

544
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:26,880
Speaker 2: he is known, He still has, you know, his innocence

545
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 2: and stuff. But I think it's significant that I'm his

546
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 2: daughter and I don't believe in his innocence. And I

547
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 2: could certainly get any attention by saying he's innocent and

548
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,280
Speaker 2: being loud and proud about that and.

549
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:48,840
Speaker 5: Giving interviews and supporting him.

550
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:51,120
Speaker 3: That's not what this is about.

551
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 2: I hate even the insinuation of that.

552
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,400
Speaker 1: That would be a lot easier to do, but you

553
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 1: take it in a harder step. Yes, to speak out

554
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 1: about someone who you love yep, deep down yep.

555
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 2: And it hurts. It hurts a lot to openly declare this.

556
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:26,320
Speaker 2: I'm sick constantly. This has been a lot. My kids

557
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:31,760
Speaker 2: have seen me in a hor refixed date over recent weeks.

558
00:36:34,080 --> 00:37:00,399
Speaker 5: But it's it needs to happen. Thank you, thank you.

559
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,919
Speaker 3: It's a lot, but it feels good to get it out.

560
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:22,040
Speaker 4: Coming soon on de Rochelle.

561
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 3: I've been working with Telstra, with Optus, with Vodaphone. I

562
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 3: have a good understanding of how the networks operate.

563
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 5: Two twenty am.

564
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:32,799
Speaker 2: It's the same time, and it just feels like the

565
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:34,319
Speaker 2: loneliest place in the world, doesn't it.

566
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 4: The killer knows this area well. That person has taken

567
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 4: so much from us.

568
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:41,960
Speaker 1: Do you believe the modern technology that you have access to.

569
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 4: Could help to solve Rochelle's case. I think you can

570
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 4: drive us forwards.

571
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:50,440
Speaker 1: It breaks my heart yet again to have your life

572
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 1: shared with such a massive worldwide audience. Are you saying

573
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 1: that Rochelle's case may not have been solved because of misogyny?

574
00:37:58,280 --> 00:37:59,959
Speaker 4: Y's been simple terms of my league.

575
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:03,320
Speaker 1: Our conclusion is that that alibi that he could have

576
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:05,320
Speaker 1: been in campbelltonon it's.

577
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:07,360
Speaker 4: Just impossible, just could not happen.

578
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 2: It's rare that I'll say it's just impossible, but it's

579
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 2: just impossible.

580
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:25,880
Speaker 1: Dear Rochelle is a multi media production from True Crime Australia.

581
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 1: If you want to be one of the first to

582
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 1: find out what happens next, go to Deroshelle dot com

583
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 1: dot au. That's where eligible Digital News Corp Australia subscribers

584
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:40,239
Speaker 1: get early access to podcast episodes and breaking news in

585
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 1: our live investigation and you will also find exclusive videos,

586
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 1: interactive evidence, feature articles and more.

587
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 4: That's Deroshelle dot com dot au.

588
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 1: If you have any tips or confidential information to share

589
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 1: with me, Ashley Hanson, please send an email to de

590
00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:01,280
Speaker 1: Roshelle at News dot com dot au. Our supervising producer

591
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:05,120
Speaker 1: and audio editor is Rhics Gunter Rachel Fountain, His executive

592
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:09,320
Speaker 1: producer and audio director. Our executive editor is Sarah Blake.

593
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:14,400
Speaker 1: Our senior journalist is Patrick Carline. Video editors are Gillian McNally,

594
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 1: Owen Yang and Stephen Woods. Picture editors are Jeff dar

595
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:21,760
Speaker 1: Mannan and Christy Miller. Senior camera operators are Daniel Andrews

596
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 1: and Oscar Viera. We sound designed by Martin Perolta and

597
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:29,239
Speaker 1: Travis Evans. Thanks also to Greg Thompson and Lenny Panerz,

598
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 1: Show Burreo, Fay Gould, Vanessa Graham, Hailey Goddard, Stephen Grice,

599
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 1: Charlotte carp Tina Coggins, and Harry Hughes. Special thanks to

600
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:42,359
Speaker 1: the Daily Telegraph editor Ben English and dear Rochelle would

601
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 1: not be possible without the help and I'm wavering support

602
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 1: of Christy and Ann Childs, Mindy Wicks, Damien Loon and

603
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 1: Rachelle's friends. This podcast series is hosted and investigated by

604
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:55,040
Speaker 1: me Ashley Hanson